Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: tozka on August 25, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
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The only book I have not read from these is Alcatraz Versus the Scrivener's Bones because I cannot find it where I live. Which is really pity because I'd love to read it. I've read only the first two chapters.
Anyway. My favourite is "Mistborn: The Well of Ascension" I like the internal struggle in Vin and Elend . How far they go to find themself. They are pretty much well shaped in the third book and the first book is introduction , not mentioning we don't see much Elend in the first book. The introduction of Zane and Tindwyl only adds to this struggle. And I always thought when I read the book that Zane is what Vin would have been if Kelsier didn't interfere in her life , didn't show her what friendship and trust is.
I never thought even for a second that Zane is insane. Although I was a bit confused , I was sure Zane is not insane but I couldn't figure out an explanation for the voice he hears.
Another thing is that many of Elend's moral and political principles are mine too. I think I might have made almost the same mistakes as Elend.Actually I don't think he made many mistakes. Unfortunately I don't think I have evolved as he did by the end of the book.
The triangle Cett, Straff, Elend was done very nicely in my opinion - the personal and military struggle between the three of them, the political machination. Everyone trying to outsmart the other two. Although at the end how it was resolved I had a bit of feeling as Deus ex Machina. But it was not unbelievable , it was the Mistborn who saved the day.
I apologize if there were topic like this. If there is I hope you'll redirect me to it. But I couldn't find any.
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This post contains spoilers. sorry.
I went with HoA. I just loved the feeling of revalation that we got with it being the last book of the series and all (i guess i should say most) of the secrets being brought out into the open. Even though a year of speculating led me to guess a few of the reveals, most of them came as a surprise and i was wowed.
We had Spook turning into one of the coolest characters of the series, TenSoon giving us a fascinating look at kandra civilization, Sazed and his struggle with faith, and some of the best fight scenes ever (Vin versus thirteen Inquisitors comes to mind), though granted i think the best ones are in WoA.
The only real problem i have with the book is that the Vin and Elend character arcs didn't seem quite as strong this time around, which is, i think, one of the reason it was ok for them to die at the end of the book. I felt that the first two books did a great job of exploring their characters and showing them grow and so by the time the third book came along there were only a few loose ends to tie up in their relationship, and then they were "ready" to die. But i think it works out. That fact allowed us more time to explore the other characters of this world.
All in all, HoA was epic. A great conclusion to a great series.
(P.S. WoA is a very close second)
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Well of Ascension was a tad bit too long for my taste. Hero of Ages, though, was awesome.
It was a close call between Warbreaker and Hero of Ages, but the sheer epic scale of Hero of Ages won in the end.
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Mistborn wins for me. Honestly, Kelsier was my favorite character of the whole series. He was complex, thoughtful, funny, and extremely intelligent. He stood before the Dark Lord and stuck up his little finger (figuratively speaking of course). The other books were quite good, but some of the magic was lost after Kel left the picture.
Warbreaker was awesome, but I haven't read the polished version. I may have to change my vote after I do so.
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I personally had a choice between Al Vs EL or Warbreaker. Alcatraz won in the end. Mistborn: Final Empire was in there but I agree with Recovering_Cynic that after Kell left something was lost.
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I liked the plot payoffs and the big battle and the Spook scenes from HoA, so it got my vote. I was kinda tempted to vote Warbreaker though, and if HoA were a standalone book, Warbreaker would probably have been a lot better. Apples and oranges, I think. :)
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Warbreaker. The people I liked weren't nerfed at the end. (see Elantris: Sarene's hubby gets godlike power, making the fact that she has some pretty fantastic people skills pretty useless. TFE: We lose the best character in the series. WoA: Zane was better. HoA: the MCs get together and play Russian Roulette with 5/6 chambers full, so the epilogue was superfluous. Warbreaker: Viv is the only one who gets nerfed (again, by relationship), and I didn't like her.) The endings of each book were satisfying in themselves. Some of my favorite characters just didn't make it, which frustrated me. Zane's death in particular was awesome, but I was super sad about it. HoA had the only ending that I straight up didn't like (probably because of the epilogue). I think the ending worked better without, and that the chapter quote for the epilogue was plenty of epilogue. The ending itself was pretty kickin'.
Of course, I wouldn't get so frustrated if I didn't like the books (and characters in them) so much. :P
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Mistborn wins for me. Honestly, Kelsier was my favorite character of the whole series. He was complex, thoughtful, funny, and extremely intelligent. He stood before the Dark Lord and stuck up his little finger (figuratively speaking of course). The other books were quite good, but some of the magic was lost after Kel left the picture.
That quote about says it all for me.
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Mistborn wins for me. Honestly, Kelsier was my favorite character of the whole series. He was complex, thoughtful, funny, and extremely intelligent. He stood before the Dark Lord and stuck up his little finger (figuratively speaking of course). The other books were quite good, but some of the magic was lost after Kel left the picture.
That quote about says it all for me.
I dunno, it may be the writer in me talking, but I don't think Kelsier would have been anywhere near as cool if he had stayed around for the next two novels.
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I agree. Kel wouldn't have been as cool had he stuck around. Sacrificing himself the way he did is in large part what made him cool, and the sacrificing is in large part what made the first book so heartwrenchingly good.
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While all of Sanderson's books that I have read have been awesome (I've not read the Alcatrz books), it comes down to HoA and Warbreaker for me.
Warbreaker has some of the best banter and dialogue I have ever seen put onto a page, and through that, excellent characters.
While Warbreaker has the character angle nailed, Hero of Ages has the the EPIC SCALE!!! angle nailed. You really got the sense that Ruin and Preservation were Gods, and much more deserving of the title than the Elantrians or Returned were.
This isn't to say that Warbreaker wasn't appropriately epic or that HoA had bad characters, it's just that Brandon had more experience with characterization when he was writing Warbreaker than when he was writing HoA, and by the same token the world wasn't ending in Warbreaker so it didn't require the same sense of enormity and scale to get the essential nature of the conflict across.
Upon consideration, I have to give the title of favorite to Hero of Ages.
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For me I have to say HoA. The book was a great conclusion to the series. Plus the character I found the most intriguing throughout the books Saiz became even more interesting.
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I haven't read Warbreaker yet (three month old twins are keeping me from it unfortunately) I liked Elantris quite a bit, because of how well the three main characters personalities are developed, and it had a kickass ending. There aren't many writers out there that can create characters that are all very different from each other, and remain consistant throughout the entire story, I've noticed. Plus I've done work as a missionary and think Brandon Sanderson captured the frustrations of preaching to an indifferent people perfectly. However, the first Mistborn wins for me, because he took two very different sorts of stories, fantasy and a heist, and put them together into something that was very original and highly entertaining. Even though it followed one of the oldest story archetypes in existense, it didn't seem like I was reading the same old story just with different characters. While I liked the other two in the trilogy a great deal, they didn't have the same feel to them that the first one did. I read the first one in one night because I just couldn't put it down. None of his other books have been like that for me.
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Come on people. HoA was fantastic but would it have been so good had not FE been amazing first. I mean I've re-read that book twice and I find myself not wanting to skip a word and that's rare for me.
Alright so I will respect opinion here and just say that FE was eye opening for me. The drastically different magic systems and the amazingly interesting characters just threw me for a loop. I will always think of that as one of my favorite books of all time.
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Btw, the Final Empire comes close second. I liked how Vin changed with Kel's help. And while Kel was set well shaped character he undergoes changes thanks to Vin too. I like when he saved Elend's life ,it was very pivotal point in the book and it was very touching moment for me. Of course the magic system was extremely interesting. Maybe the best short of Robert Jordan's One Power which beats it in scope(well certainly his books are enormous) and originality but just a little. And the heist - fantasy story was very interesting and original. Nothing like I've read before.
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I like where your going. I agree that the growth of the main characters had a lot to do with my love of FE.
I will have to respectfully disagree with your magic system statement. I was refreshed with systems of magic that had rules and limitations. Although I love WoT and many other series with all encompassing magic systems, they seem to lack any kind of logical base. In reality, the longer one works with a magic or the more naturally talented one is means they can do practically anything. I'm not the biggest fan of magic that has no end. Wot and the One Power, Sword of Truth and "Additive and Subtractive" even the Belgariad with the "Will and the Word". Of course there are many more examples those are just a few of the more well known ones. Although it seems strange that rules can be refreshing, in this case I find it to be true.
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I always found that there was something weird about the Mistborn trilogy. I've finally decided that it was because I didn't complete buy into the theme of faith because it felt like it was there for the sake of being there, and the arguments didn't win me over. It also made a lot more sense to me when I found out later that it's set in a period of technology similar to our early-1800s (Victorian?) England, but I think the main problem for me was with the theme.
Warbreaker is not only my favorite book by Brandon Sanderson, but my favorite book in the entire world above anything else I've ever read (which isn't a small number of books). Everything was perfect, and it was my first Sanderson book. (I read it online and bought hardcover the week it was out and reread it.) I hope his books continue getting better and better, and that his Stormlight Archive series follows on the footsteps of the other great epics.
Elantris was a close second for me. After finishing HoA (which, despite my small discomfort with some of the theme, was epic) I couldn't read anything because I kept thinking of how it couldn't compare to a Sanderson book, so I went out and got the one non-children's Sanderson book I hadn't read, Elantris. I really liked all three characters and found Hrathen developing feelings for Sarene heartbreakingly awesome and sad. I loved all the political machinations in this one, but the romance in Warbreaker really won me over because it was so organic and enveloping.
I'm disappointed at how few people voted for Elantris, but I'm thinking that maybe it was a close second on many people's lists like it was for me.
PS: This isn't necroing, is it? This is a pretty recent post, sorry if it is necro.
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Come on people. HoA was fantastic but would it have been so good had not FE been amazing first. I mean I've re-read that book twice and I find myself not wanting to skip a word and that's rare for me.
Alright so I will respect opinion here and just say that FE was eye opening for me. The drastically different magic systems and the amazingly interesting characters just threw me for a loop. I will always think of that as one of my favorite books of all time.
I dunno. I think paying off the development of several of his characters in HoA was what made it my favourite Mistborn book. The only characters that really develop in FE are Vin, and Kelsier if we count us finding out about his previous character growth. (and I think we should) In HoA, Vin, Spook, Elend, TenSoon, and Sazed all have very significant character development, and I think this "ensemble cast" style makes the story stronger, even if it required some setup from previous books.
You're certainly right that HoA could not have been so good without the setup from FE. But of course, we experience the payoff of that setup in HoA and not FE, so of course this flavours our perception.
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My favorite isn't even on the list! I guess I have to wait three or four years to vote for it!
Brandon's books are the best!
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My favorite isn't even on the list! I guess I have to wait three or four years to vote for it!
I would've voted for Scribbler too, if it had been on the list. But alas, it wasn't.
My vote went to Hero of Ages. That book was incredible if only for the sheer epicness of it. Of course, it was also incredible for a lot of other reasons, but...wow. I loved it. Sure, the ending tore me up, and I'm still not entirely certain of my thoughts about it (I don't like it, and yet I love it...such a mix), but I do know that it was full of awesome.
But really, all of his books are good. I'm sure Way of Kings will blow all those listed out of the water....
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I must say without a doubt, Final Empire.
Don't get me wrong, Hero of Ages was great and all, but to me, Final Empire turned pages faster. I don't know, in HoA, the parts before the ending weren't as exciting than comparable areas in FE. Of course, the ending and seeing everything fit together in HoA was amazing, and I have no qualms at all with its ending at all (it's all universally positive for me).
But on the sheer value for holy crap, this ending was sweet, I think my reaction to the ending of Final Empire was stronger. The part where Kelsier died was so perfectly done, and made the book phenomenal. Finding the Lord Ruler's secret also made the book awesome. I have a thing for immortal god-kings :)
So purely on a reactionary level, my favorite goes to MB1. You can't beat a pure visceral reaction to that.
Now, analyzing closer, Brandon's writing in Warbreaker is his best yet, embedded with a subtle irony which makes it a pleasure to read. None of the Mistborn books have the same flair as Warbreaker's prose, but Mistborn wins on epicness and creativity. Warbreaker, I thought, did not have as "whiz-bang" of an ending as the others.
Elantris deserves another mention, because it's ending was sweet. If I were to rank Brandon's epics in terms of my likeability of them:
1. Final Empire
2. Warbreaker
3. Hero of Ages
4. Elantris
5. The Well of Ascension
2-4 are hard to rank, because I like them all equally for completely different reasons.
Well of Ascension gets last place because I have always disliked Zane. That whole book didn't click all the way for me. Of course, it's ending justifies it tenfold, so I have to give it that, but I always felt Well of Ascension moved slowly.
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I like how you put that Chaos. Based solely on reaction theres almost no question. HoA did slow down for a while near the end when Vin was captive and before Urteau burned. I think the chaos that followed Kelsiers death was my favorite thing Brandon has written. The radical change from, Survivor leading the way to, OH SH**! was awesome. Its almost like from the moment Kell decided to save the captives in the square all the way to the last page there was this amazing culmination of unexpected and amazing events that kind of set the tone for the whole trilogy. Kell died so no one was safe, TLRs dead so all that we knew was at an end. All that was left was the rest of the crew and the rest was a question mark. A surprisingly satisfying question mark.
I find it amusing how you don't like Zane. You always seemed like a Zane type of guy.
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I find it amusing how you don't like Zane. You always seemed like a Zane type of guy.
Heh. He does, doesn't he? :P
This next part will have spoilers. If you have not read Hero of Ages, do not finish this post (although I don't know why you would be in this thread if you haven't read it...). If you do, it's your own fault...You have been warned.
First, Final Empire. I loved it. I was completely surprised when Kell died, but not at all surprised by who killed him. Plus, it was awesome that the first sighting of TLR is the scene where he kills Kell. Amazing. And then with the uprising, and Vin killing TLR....it just kept getting better and better. The whole book was really just freaking amazing.
Hero of Ages, though. I would have to agree that it was a little slow in places, but that end. From Vin and Elend's separation on the walls of Fadrex City, it sped up. The sheer amount of information given--like the first generation, and where the atium has been, and the earring, and so much else--was incredible, and it made total sense. And the deaths. Both made sense. Both made perfect sense. Yet it still hit me that Marsh decapitated Elend. Sure, he's controlled by Ruin, but....Elend is headless. That's just not cool.
It also didn't help that somehow I missed the part in the epilogue where Spook finds their bodies. When I finished it the first time, I still had this image of headless Elend floating around in my head and it was distinctly unpleasant. And then I re-read it, and I saw the part with the bodies and I was relieved. For everything that happened, it ended very positively.
And I couldn't stop thinking about it. It was near the end of the semester when I read it. About a month to the end, and I was coming up to finals, and there I was, completely preoccupied with the ending of HoA. I'm not sure what it was, but it stunned me. Left me in complete awe of Brandon's geniusness. It was emotional, surprising, and gutsy. Not to mention epic. And completely perfect. It couldn't have ended any other way.
In terms of ending, Hero of Ages wins by a long shot over Final Empire. Final Empire, though, is a stronger book as a whole. Yet, HoA's ending, for me, makes up for the few slow places, putting it in first place. So FE is second...
I think my standings are thus:
1. HoA
2. FE
3. Warbreaker
4. Elantris
5. Well of Ascension
...Methinks I spent way too much time on this post. If I'm not careful, I'm going to become as bad as Chaos....:P
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I find it amusing how you don't like Zane. You always seemed like a Zane type of guy.
In real life, though, I'm far more an Elend guy. In the entire series, Elend is my favorite character. So when Zane pops up and gets between Vin and Elend... man, those are fighting words :)
...Methinks I spent way too much time on this post. If I'm not careful, I'm going to become as bad as Chaos....:P
I hardly think you have a chance. :P
Don't get me wrong, I love knowing the answers that Hero of Ages presents (in my first readthrough I took about 4000 words of notes as the answers unfolded), but if I'm judging on that basis, then I was probably more excited for the next epigraph than the next chapter.
Final Empire gave my climax music. I was listening to some orchestral things, and there was this song that I kept pressing repeat on with that scene Kelsier died. I played that same song until the end of the book. It was genuinely thrilling.
I think we can all say Brandon's endings are awesome. No, the word "awesome" doesn't do it justice. I'll stick with "thrilling".
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The single vote for Elantris is from me, unless I've gone crazy. I've read all of Brandons books apart from the Alcatraz ones, and Elantris is still my favourite.
It's not really because of the characters or the plot. And Brandons writing is far better in his later books (Warbreaker, mmm delicious Warbreaker). I love Elantris because of it's setting, and the magic. I especially love the little touches, like with the Elantrians getting wounds that don't heal and slowly drive them insane. Brandon is always coming up with concepts I've never heard of or imagined before, and sometimes I find myself wondering whether he is insane.
It's funny, really. I tried explaining Mistborn to a friend at work. "Yeah there's these dudes who basically swallow flakes of metal and it lets them fight like ninjas. Honestly. It's so great I bought a signed first edition.. What? Why are you looking at me like that? They fight like ninjas. Yeah I said they swallow metal. They burn it in their stomachs. Ninjas. Ninjas!!"
Thank god I didn't have to try and explain Warbreaker. "Uh, well, these dudes get these things called breaths, which are kinda like peoples souls but not really and everyone starts with one, and they can put them in objects and tell them to do things. Like throwing a rope and telling it to 'strangle things'. Honestly it's really cool."
Maybe he just puts a bunch of words in a hat and draws them out. Huh, let's try it. *rummages in a hat*
Flowers, sniffing, reality. Okay... So Sniffers (the magic users) snort the distilled scent of different flowers and use it to warp the fabric of reality. *rummages again*
God Emperor, Gardener, Dragon, Twilight. So in a world set in constant twilight (where it's hard to find the good flowers, like Daffodils which let you warp time) there is an evil God Emperor (The Gardener) who is really a dragon and he sucked out all the sunlight for his own personal garden.
So now we need the Brandon twist. *looks in the hat* Good, evil, flowers. So it turns out that the Gardener is actually good, since without the perpetual twilight Sniffers would destroy the world by rampantly warping reality, but in another twist he's actually evil because he eats everyone who enters his lair, and plans to return the sunlight (which he thinks is good but is evil because the Sniffers will blow up the planet). So he's good and evil. And in a final twist, this is all taking place on a giant flower, which another Sniffer sniffs on another world, which is also a giant flower, and the image repeats for all eternity until one of them sneezes and ruins it. This also all takes place in 60 pages after 800 of buildup.
Damn. This is why Brandon writes the books huh. Oh well.
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Damn. This is why Brandon writes the books huh. Oh well.
Yes, well, insanity and a hat with random words in it are just two of the many requirements you have to have to be Brandon.
Honestly, though I voted for Warbreaker, the prose didn't seem to flow as naturally some of the time as in his other books. The cleverness felt a little forced to me at times. Perhaps I've just read too much Wilde.
My List:
Warbreaker
The Final Empire
Elantris (despite less refined prose than is used in his later books)
Hero of Ages
The Well of Ascension
tFE is a close second, Elantris and HoA are close to each other but a bit below the first two, with tWoA being just barely below HoA.
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Wow, Zimra, I loved your post! The first part was entirely true and the second part was hilarious. What I really liked about Elantris was that all the characters really clicked for me. I felt them. The same was mostly true for Warbreaker (although the first time I read it I got as confused as Vivena about the whole Denth/Vasher "who's the good guy" kind of thing) but for Elantris, everything fit.
In Mistborn, a friend of mine spoiled the ending by telling me Kelsier dies before I had even read any Sanderson or about the time I was reading Warbreaker on my computer, so I didn't think much of it but when I read FE it kind of ruined the tension and the revelation for me. I guess it's parallel to the surprising developments in Elantris where Hrathen is cursed by the "Shaod" (drinks that potion there) and then later does the same thing to Sarene, but on a much bigger scale with much more impact? Damn, I'll forever wonder what it would've been like to experience that... Maybe I should ruin TGS for that person to get back at them. xD Just kidding, that would be a sin.
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Elantris
the plotline with Raoden bringing civilization to the magical leper colony is what really makes the book stand out for me
the food cart chapters, hrathen's constant struggles, and sarene teaching the women to fence are all spectacular.
Hero of ages comes in second, because of the epic scope and atmosphere of the books.
there's a scene where one of the kandra is running cross-country, and he takes a paragraph to describe the scenery: the pervasive ash is now piled high, there are active volcanoes erupting everywhere, it's an image that just stuck with me. With all the action, all the fighting, the wars and politics, you forget that the backdrop is armageddon.
also, the twist with vin's earring was an absolute kick in the nuts. the best plot twists are the ones where you get enough clues beforehand, and rereading the series, it just seems so bloody obvious, but getting the reveal the first time completely swept my legs out from under me.
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wow, zimra. parts of that actually weren't that bad. altogether it was awful, but some of it... do u mind if i steal The Gardener as the bad guy idea? i might have to try this hat thing...
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Am i the only one who's favorite characters in Mistborn are Vin and Spook? The first book was the best but it was much more than Kel the whole thing of thieves being heroes was awesome! Elantris is 2nd, then HoA then WoA.
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Am i the only one who's favorite characters in Mistborn are Vin and Spook? The first book was the best but it was much more than Kel the whole thing of thieves being heroes was awesome! Elantris is 2nd, then HoA then WoA.
Oh, Vin was great. I love her. Spook is awesome, too.
But for me, top honors goes to Elend ;)
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I personally think Elend was too much of a fool when it came to his mistakes in book 2, but he was quite interesting in book 1 when he'd sit with Vin and read. I loved his development of leadership skills, but Tindwyl dying sucked. I liked Sazed but I couldn't completely relate to him. Vin was so special because she was good at everything and she was like a cat: independent, solitary, quick on her feet, wary, smart... Out of all the Mr S books, I'd have to be unoriginal and say that Lightsong was my favorite, but I really, really liked Sarene too, and if I'm not mistaken, she's supposedly the least favorite of the three main characters in Elantris.
I'm not normally a romance person--it's always good as a side-plot but never as the main plot--but the epitome of good character development is when you can trick the reader into falling in love with both characters who fall in love with each other, and Mr S has frustratingly done this to me with every book and it just melts me. Siri coming to realize that Susebron wasn't as evil as the priests had painted him to be and her befriending of him, and eventually her falling for him, was one of the most magical stories I've ever bought into. Mr S said he wrote Warbreaker during a very happy time in his life (when he got married to Ms S) and I really think that feeling sank heavily into that one work.
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For me the best book has to be WoA.
**Spoilers**
I actually started off disliking the book. I thought the internal conflict was drawn out. It reminded me of the second book of the twilight series (my wife and I decided to do a book series swap-don't judge ;) ) in the fact that the same emotions were drilled to the reader throughout the whole book. I understood that Vin was having some doubts about her relationship with Elend and the crew, I do not think that Zane needed to come in every couple chapters to take Vin back to square one in her character development.
That all changed in the end. Finding out that Ruin had been changing the prophecies to guide the people to believe that the hero needed to give up the power was the best plot twist I have read. The fact that there was some evil god slowly manipulating . I was actually creeped out by this plot development (the first time I have been creeped out while reading).
The complete misdirection of the book becomes obvious. Vin, Elend, and the reader were caught up in the politics of the time that we were completely forgetful of the true danger that the world faced (ignorance in this case). Only Sazed tried to figure out what truly happened, and what he should do, but you realize that he is being manipulated by Ruin as well.
I also loved the sacrifice that Vin had to make. Usually, when a main character is at Death's door, you just know that somehow they are going to be saved. When a character has to make a choice between someone they love and the greater good somehow they work around to have both happen. However, when Vin gave up the power, I in all legitimacy believed that Elend was going to die. When I read the line with Vin's thoughts that she was going to respect Elend's wishes by letting him die, I thought BS was letting us know and justifying Vin's sacrifice . When Elend was saved, I was truly suprised
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I liked Warbreaker the best. I love the Mistborn Trilogy but for some reason Warbreak struck home with me. There was a good mix of humor, romance, character development, action, mystery, and Brandons ever present twists. He had an amazing cast of characters too. Vivenna was very vivid to me, and Lightsong was the most humorous character i have ever read. Vasher of course takes the cake. he reminds me a little of Dustfinger in Inkheart. i loved the magic system as well. Allomancy was a great concept but it was, in a way, simple to grasp. Brandon started off little. In Warbreaker he made it more complicated, more complex. I can't wait to see his next magic system, most likely bigger and better (and more complex) then the last.
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More complex? Warbreaker had the most simplistic magic system of all the worlds put forth so far. You give life to the inanimite by use of breath and colour....how is that complicated? Allomancy and Aeon Dor are exact sciences Awakening is approximation.
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Well, you've gone and drawn a lurker out of hiding. Well played.
It was HoA that got my vote in the end, with Warbreaker following a close second. Just the sheer scale on which Sanderson operates is itself amazing, but the way everything hinted at in the past two books comes in to play -- Reen and God's voices are revealed to be Ruin's, the mists themselves are Preservation's body (which, by the way, I thought contrasted very nicely with Ruin's smoke-body), even something as innocuous as Vin's earring -- is masterfully done. I'm a sucker for seeing loose ends get wrapped up well.
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More complex? Warbreaker had the most simplistic magic system of all the worlds put forth so far. You give life to the inanimite by use of breath and colour....how is that complicated? Allomancy and Aeon Dor are exact sciences Awakening is approximation.
That description of Awakening only really applies to one of the four types of awakened objects. There are apparently many more methods and tricks available! The simple fact is that of all the systems, we know the least about awakening, but it is pretty clear that, given the number of questions about the Returned and Nightblood, as well as the complexity of commands, Awakening is not simplistic. In fact, I feel that it really is more complex than Allomancy, at the very least, although perhaps less complex (or maybe simply less-understood in-world) than Aon-Dor.
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Both Aeon Dor and Allomancy are based off the laws of physics....and because of the complexity of physics i see them as much more detailed magic systems than Awakening
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Both Aeon Dor and Allomancy are based off the laws of physics....and because of the complexity of physics i see them as much more detailed magic systems than Awakening
If Aon Dor and Allomancy are based off the laws of physics, then Awakening is based off the laws of biology. I'll give you two guesses as to which of those two fields is actually more complex, and you can't choose physics, 'cause that's not it. That's something I can state with absolute certainty.
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Actually, Biology is a subset of Chemistry which is a subset of Electromagnetics which is a subset of physics. It's just that doing chemistry or biology from first physical principles would require so many calculations that even our greatest supercomputers would have trouble with even the most basic problems.
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Biology- study of life
Chemistry- study of composition of things
Physics- study of the laws that govern the universe
Biology is a specific field based off of chem which in turn is a field based off of physics so my argument stands.
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Hooray for pointless bickering over semantics!
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If you weren't recovering i would invite you to join in!
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Biology- study of life
Chemistry- study of composition of things
Physics- study of the laws that govern the universe
Biology is a specific field based off of chem which in turn is a field based off of physics so my argument stands.
I would argue that the opposite is true. The more things that interact in order to produce the macroscopic laws that we see, the more complex it is and the more rich the resulting behavior. The fact that biology is (technically) derived from physics through two (roughly) intervening layers gives it a richness that raw physics cannot achieve, and introduces much more subtlety, not to mention allowing more exceptions to the strictly heuristic laws found. Thus I would expect awakening (which imitates life) to be much more subtle than Allomancy, certainly, and possibly Aon Dor as well.
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Buffalo Feathers!!! Physics can explain any phenomna that occurs in the natural world...breathing, blood circulation, whatnot. The problem that arrises is that by using something overly complex to explain a basic principle is that it becomes cumbersome, thus the birth of the other sciences. Basic Biology and Chemistry are cake walk classes Physics kicked me around...it ended up alright, but it kicked me around.
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Considering happyman is a physics grad student, I will happily defer to him :)
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Buffalo Feathers!!! Physics can explain any phenomna that occurs in the natural world...breathing, blood circulation, whatnot. The problem that arrises is that by using something overly complex to explain a basic principle is that it becomes cumbersome, thus the birth of the other sciences. Basic Biology and Chemistry are cake walk classes Physics kicked me around...it ended up alright, but it kicked me around.
Perhaps I should supply some context for my statements. I have a Ph.D. in physics (earned it in August), and have also taken college level introductory biology and AP chemistry (plus there is a certain amount of overlap between statistical physics and inorganic chemistry). While you may have found biology and chemistry classes easier than physics, in my opinion this does not relate to how complex the fields are for the purposes of this discussion.
First of all, physics is actually an older discipline, in terms of its scientific development, than biology. This means that part of the reason physics is harder is because we have had time to get to the really hard problems, whereas biology is still scratching the surface. Biology spent a long time flailing around to find even the basic principles and is only now really beginning to find the proper quantitative methods for getting the same kind of depth already available in physics. If you try to solve truly comparable problems, in terms of predictive power, biology is much more difficult than physics at every step. In your biology classes, you solved enormously simpler problems than you did in your physics classes, but this is not inherent to the disciplines but rather a side-effect of the way we teach them.
Part of the reason this lack of relative depth is not obvious is because biology is something we experience much more directly than we do physics. It is part of our life, and we have well-developed intuition to deal with things like animals and other people. Things just happen. Thus the true complexity of the system is masked by the fact that we ourselves are correspondingly complex and know how to deal with it. We don't realize that explanations and descriptions given in daily life hide a lot of complexity that would come out in a full quantitative treatment on par with the normal physics descriptions.
In addition, the world is fairly regular, even in biology. However, the complexity in biology allows exceptions to "bubble up" that physics can't tolerate. In physics, an electron is an electron and all electrons are absolutely identical (this can be stated mathematically and has noticeable effects on the world around us. Like that it exists.) In physics there are on the order of 32 fundamental particles, maybe a few more. Their behavior is unintuitive and difficult to understand, but has been almost completely solved in real-world situations barring interactions (which is where biology comes from).
The number of species in biology on the other hand, is enormous. I don't even know where to start. Even within species, we get exceptions. A cat, is not just a cat. Many cats behave similarly, until you get the cat with a mental disorder. The sheer richness of biology dwarfs that of physics. The behavior is enormously subtle and cannot be predicted with anything like the precision physics has. The biosphere is orders of magnitude more complex than anything mentioned in a physics textbook; this is glossed over in biology classes simply because you know what the biosphere is already and don't demand that your teacher make predictions for the biosphere that are as good as the predictions we have for the orbit of Mars.
This is being addressed, of course, by biologists or physics who dabble in biology, or whatever. However, it is fairly simple to make an introductory course in biology and get handed only easy problems while *feeling* like the material is comparable to the hard problems presented in physics. Hence the illusion.
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Ahem, I apologize, Ph D in physics, not grad student :) How silly of me.
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* Spoilers contained below *
You know that it is funny that my favorite book by Brandon is also the same book that I am most frustrated with. This would be Hero of Ages. I really enjoyed the Mistborn trilogy and the Hero of Ages was a fantastic final installment of this series. There were plot twists that I did not see coming and the characters inner struggles really added to their development. I was completely fooled about Vin's earing being a hemalurgic spike. I usually am good about picking up these twists, but that was a wow moment for me. I picked up on Spook's spike right away and knew what was going on there, but Vin's spike fooled me. I really liked Sazed's internal struggles with faith and how he finally came to terms with it. I am not an overly religious person of even share the same religion as Brandon does, but faith and religion is a topic that is so prevalent in the real world that I always find it surpassing that it is commonly glossed over or even ignored in other Fantasy / Sci Fi books. Also I am not the type of person who get emotional when reading books or watching movies, but the ending touched me and yanked on my emotions so much that I had a hard time focusing on anything else for some time immediately after finishing the book.
** Warning Rant follows **
Ok enough praising of the book. Now let me mention what frustrated me. I watched the development of Vin's character starting as the frighten street thief and saw her grow and have to deal with conflicts and struggles. I normally don't get attached to characters as rule, but she had gone through so much in her life that I really wanted her to have a happy ending. When she died, it ripped my heart out and wanted to yell “How can you do that to her after everything she has been through!!”. Yes I understand the whole after live thing at the end and how Sazed mentioned in his note to Spook that both Vin and Elend were happy and at piece. But of all the characters, Vin was my favorite and killing her off frustrated me to no end.
** End of Rant **
Even with Vin dying (grrrrrr) I really enjoyed the book and would recommend it and the series to others.
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Yeah i just remembered what my uncle (who graduated 1st in his class at Rice for his Phd in astro physics needless to say as Suma Kumlaudi) told me about our debate earlier. First he laughed, then he explained that no science was more important or more difficult than any other though some are progressing faster than others.
And why are there so little votes for FE
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Yeah i just remembered what my uncle (who graduated 1st in his class at Rice for his Phd in astro physics needless to say as Suma Kumlaudi) told me about our debate earlier. First he laughed, then he explained that no science was more important or more difficult than any other though some are progressing faster than others.
And why are there so little votes for FE
It's kinda hard for a book that's establishing a universe to really go all-out and wow us because there's a tendency to overwhelm us with new information. Mistborn did pretty well on that front. :)
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Yeah all I meant by saying that BioChroma was more complex was that it was more complex to me. I understand the whole "What comes up must come down" (steel and iron, obviously. Although that saying doesn't quite apply, but you know what I mean) really well because, well, it's kinda apart of life. Plus, think about it a little. Tin increases your senses, pewter increases your body's abilites, brass and Zinc roit and soothe your emotions, Copper and broze reveal and hide sources of other allomancy. Just doesn't seem hard to grasp to me. Biology kicks my butt however which is probably a reason why I think BioChroma is complex. I completely disregarded Aeon Dor by mistake though, and now remember how flipping hard it was for me to grasp. I'll give you that one lol, but in all seriousness, Allomancy WAS easy to understand. BioChroma takes a bit more, esspecially when considering the sheer possibilites of it (plus it's complications with actual use and mastery of commands) which was showcased somewhat at the end of the book by Susebron getting a tongue.
I didn't mean to start an off topic discussion lol. Just stating my opinion and all. ;)
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I'm going to go off on a limb here and say most original was WoA and most skillfully written Elantris...
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I'm going to go off on a limb here and say most original was WoA and most skillfully written Elantris...
I'd say most skillfully written was Warbreaker.
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I'd say most skillfully written was Warbreaker.
I would agree...As for original--Mistborn. Not sure which one, because I thought the whole trilogy was very original, but it's one of those three.
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Yeah all I meant by saying that BioChroma was more complex was that it was more complex to me. I understand the whole "What comes up must come down" (steel and iron, obviously. Although that saying doesn't quite apply, but you know what I mean) really well because, well, it's kinda apart of life. Plus, think about it a little. Tin increases your senses, pewter increases your body's abilites, brass and Zinc roit and soothe your emotions, Copper and broze reveal and hide sources of other allomancy. Just doesn't seem hard to grasp to me. Biology kicks my butt however which is probably a reason why I think BioChroma is complex. I completely disregarded Aeon Dor by mistake though, and now remember how flipping hard it was for me to grasp. I'll give you that one lol, but in all seriousness, Allomancy WAS easy to understand. BioChroma takes a bit more, esspecially when considering the sheer possibilites of it (plus it's complications with actual use and mastery of commands) which was showcased somewhat at the end of the book by Susebron getting a tongue.
I didn't mean to start an off topic discussion lol. Just stating my opinion and all. ;)
For the record, I agree with you, and I think you've stated my argument much more concisely than did!
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I think WoA is the most original because it answers a question ignored by storytellers... and then? Yeah big baddy went by by but everyone else is still around what happens to them?
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I have to say I really enjoyed the scientific debate a few posts back! It was most entertaining. ;D
This is a hard one for me. I started reading Sanderson's books when I found out he was finishing Jordon's books so I could get a feel for his writing style. I finished Elantris the first day and headed straight to the book store and bought all thee Mistborn books and had those done in the next four days. As you can guess, I loved them and bought Warbreaker as soon as it was out.
I think I would have to say that Warbreaker was the most entertaining on an overall level simpliy because it had a little bit of everyting in it; romance, action, magic, suspence, plot twists and especially humor. Lightsong was my absolute favorite character out of all the books simply because I just couldn't stop laughing at him. (He kinda reminds me of my husband, but I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad ting ;) )
I loved the dialogue between the characters in this book as well. Plus, he left plenty of room at the end for more, which is always good.
However, that being said, HOA was definitely epic and had me in tears at the end, so it is a very close second. Since I have read all of his books at least twice (some three times) in the last few months, I'd say they are all definitely very worthy books in my opinion.
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I think The Final Empire is still my favorite. That book gets a great deal of mileage out of the heist motif, and a great deal of tension out of the fact that the characters are in over their heads pretty much from page one, and it's unclear how they could possibly succeed right up until they do. All of their victories are sweeter for how hard they were won.
Warbreaker is fun, and I do appreciate its lighter tone, but TFE is vividly burned into my memory.
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Which Brandon Sanderson book is your favorite? Personally mine is The Well of Ascension (but I've only read the Msitborn Trilogy so far).
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There is a poll somewhere.....
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Oh sorry I didn't know about that.
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I went looking for the old thread, so I could link this one or meld them, but I can't find it. Anyone know where it is?
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It's right here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7067.0).
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Thanks, little wilson. :)