Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: readerMom on October 27, 2009, 08:20:06 PM
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After ignoring my family for 6 hours I am happy.
And satisfied. It is nice to have so many long awaited events finally happen.
It was a good book.
Anyone more eloquent than I have opinions yet?
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I just read it in one sitting as well. I'm happy to see sine things resolved. I felt like the writings were done mainly by Brandon. I'm so ready to know the series ending.
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Sorry, it's hard to reflect immediately after such a ling read. I loved the twist about Verin. I always believed her intentions pure.
I was really let down about not seeing the part where morg came out about her true identity.
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You guys/gals may want to put a Spoiler warning in the heading.
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Ya, Spoilers would be nice, I'm about 250 pages in and now I'm Dying to see the Verin reveal, but alas work gets in the way...
Brandon,
If you happen to read this, I just want to say that I too, am a long time fan of RJ's, I first got involved in in the WOT books back around 1994 and have been hooked since. So far I think your attempts to get the "voices" of the characters down have been pretty spot on with a few exceptions (Suian being too "Suianish" for my taste). Thank you for taking up the challenge to complete this story that million's of fans love and adore.
Congrat's on what so far ( IMHO) is turning into a wonderful addition to the WOT world. I eagerly look forward to your future works.
Sincerely,
Todd
P.S. Since learning of your involvement in the WOT work, I have read through and thouroughly enjoyed your Mistborn trilogy, Elantris, and Warbreaker novels. Keep up the good work!
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I must say i am actually enjoying the change in author. Brandon is a great author (as was RJ) but he does it a different way. I feel we are getting in the character's heads more. I do not believe there is much useless detail here as was sometimes present in the past. Even if I didn't feel this way it is kind of nice to have a change after so many books in RJ's voice. It is keeping things really fresh for me after a 1 year long re-read of the series.
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Sorry about Verin - I never did specify what happened at least :)
Apbadd I understand how you feel. For some reasons after getting used to it for so long, it was just odd for it not to be there.
I loved the book and feel like Brandon was a perfect choice.
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It really feels like one unified series, rather than separate books. The series sure has matured.
Why did they change Brandon Sanderson's book jacket photo from his own books? He looks way too serious. :P
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Brandon I got to hand it to you. There isn't much in this world that will make me stay up until 5 am on a day when I start a new job, but this book was great! Part of me wanted to save it for a few days worth of savouring but I couldnt put it down, I had to know what happened. Very balanced, very awesome! I think I'll start re-reading it tonight to let it sink in!
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First of excellent book Mr. Sanderson and very well done with smooth transition of writing styles.
Now my few complaints are how the plot seemed very easily predictable. I guess after 3 years+ waiting and speculating most people who are forum participants and theory fans knew the main plot of the book. But even so it was quite predictable. I know you have to cut the books in thirds but I wish a fewer surprises would have happened in this section. The only thing that really surprised me was Rand's Epiphany and Verin's double crossing of the black ajah ( sort of a loophole plot filler though... like it was crammed in there) .
All in all one of the great books of the series.... and can't wait to see what happens in the next one with Matt ( my favorite character)
Mack
PS Why no Elayne chapters? Guess she doesn't have much to add to the plot after seizing the throne.... and WHO KILLED ASMODEAN????? >:(
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I ignored my family too and got it finished. Great book Sanders. I thought it moved nicely. with the promise before RJ's death the last book was last I can understand all the suprises and the need for 3 books.
it was a great book. I was hated by my family for not seeing them all night.
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Just finished reading the book myself, and it was wonderful. It certainly felt like a cohesive part of the series, and while I noticed a few of Brandon's writing quirks (Such as a minor Brandon Avalanche) I felt like they enhanced the book rather than degraded it. Writing too much out of style would have been a bad choice.
All in all I'm quite happy with everything involved.
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I wrote this for my blog, but it fits here so I'm gonna repost it. :)
I've just finished reading The Gathering Storm. I'm now going to rant about how I feel about how the book was written, having finished reading.
Firstly: Oh my god, what a great read. Without getting into spoilers, the plotline for Rand, and Egwene's struggle, and finding out exactly what was going on with Verin Sedai are simply full of win. The plotting here is so spot-on that more and more I can't understand the perspective of fans who were, presented with preview chapters, trying to nitpick what was written by Sanderson and what by Jordan. It might help that I was familiar with and liked both authors before coming to this book, but there is simply too much right here to justify anyone doubting that Brandon can get this project over the finish line. Hopefully everyone who liked the series has given him a chance to prove that.
Secondly: Brandon stayed true to and made good on his promise to make this a Wheel of Time book, but not try to pretend to be Jordan. There were short chapters here that Jordan would never have published- he favoured long threadlike chapters that he wove together slowly. There are names that don't quite sound the same as others in the Wheel of Time universe. But nothing that doesn't work. There is nothing that makes this a bad story. Every time I felt I was going to be thrown out of the story because events had twisted away from my expectations, Brandon recovered me by showing me that it was just good tension and plotting that left me guessing. I was feeling as if I was about to be thrown out of the story because the events were fulfilling promises in unexpected ways, which is exactly what any author worth their salt would do- it's just that the twists are getting much bigger now that the series is wrapping up, so the tension was good enough that it had me questioning if what I was guessing would even happen. And of course, in those cases, it didn't. ;)
The rules that Wheel of Time characters follow- that revelations are dramatic, that secrets are important, that the genders feel mutually incomprehensible to each other, that earning trust is hard- it's all still there. Nobody acts wrong. All the characters have their same motivations, and the new ones we discover make perfect sense. There were even things that had eluded me in previous novels that I picked up in this book, because Sanderson got into the character's heads a bit more, rather than telegraphing their feelings with body language or reactionary thoughts, and leaving the motivations behind them undescribed. The advantage of being near the end of the series! It all builds properly on everything that came before it, and it fits so deliciously in. There is no "McDune" problem here, not that I had expected to find one, but I was surprised to find that I didn't have time to worry once I had a chance to sit down with the book. I was too busy wanting to get back at the next chapter when I needed to break from reading.
There are a few parts where you can tell we're going at what for Jordan would have been breakneck pace. A lot more seems to happen "off-camera" than generally happened in the middle of the series, (There was certainly a lot of off-camera action at the beginning, however. This is still within the bounds of how The Wheel Of Time was written) and, as earlier, the chapter structure seems a little bit different from other Wheel of Time books. That's as much as I really want to say that skirts comparing Jordan and Sanderson; I'm not going to spoil the experience of the rest of this series by trying to figure out in much detail what's changed since Knife of Dreams, and the things I've mentioned are small changes of focus that any author could choose to make during their own series. The awesome lingering reminders of the Mat/Tuon relationship and the fast pacing are both still there from Knife of Dreams, which frankly, would have been enough for me on its own.
The Aes Sedai acted like Aes Sedai. Perrin was appropriately torn. Mat was a rascal with a heart of gold. And that's all you're getting without spoilers. There was, however, a small amount of Brandon's tendency to do a lot in his endings, but this wasn't the usual traffic jam that he wields at the end of a book, tying everything up neatly in parallel. There was still the usual serene close of Wheel of Time books, with the usual relaxed room to ponder just exactly what is coming next.
The novel excited me. I didn't want to put it down. (I managed, however, when I had to get off the bus. Somehow.) If you were still on the fence, I simply want to say this: The pattern is in good hands. Brandon's earned the trust that Harriet put in him, and then some. :)
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Loved the book, forced me to stay up all night :P Everything was great except the Legends chapter... for some reason it really didnt feel like Mat, but w/e :)
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SPOILERS
a few at least.
Just finished the book. I really could tell that there was a change in authors. The book moved much faster than any previous WoT book, with less words spent lingering on the texture of the world. I think Brandon did an incredible job. Every chapter was necessary, foreshadowed, strong, and never superfluous. The characters' personalities are excellent, if a bit more understanding and less opinionated (Nyneave). I especially loved Mat's 4-5 page metaphor for what dealing with women is like and his attempt at role-playing.
The scene with Semirhage and Rand's afterward willingness to resort to... well weapons of last resort were necessary and appreciated. I liked that he got harder, and hid his anger. It made him less of a man and more of a legend.
Egwene was perfect in this book. Absolutely awesome. An Amyrlin such as Creation has never seen before, nor ever will again. She IS the Aes Sedai, and always will be.
All in all, incredible story, and even though it wasn't the same as Robert Jordan, It is one of the best books in the series, if not the best. Actually, I think I do consider it the best in theseries.
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I've told all of my WoT nerd friends that it is going to be HARD not to run up and hug Brandon at the November 2nd signing. I've been in love with the Wheel of Time since about 2002, and you've done it justice. I loved it. My friend and I now call Verin Verin "badassedai"
Needless to say I think he did a great job. Cannot wait until The Crowned Shadow of Winter's Heart is Crossing the Road with a Sword, and he's pissed. :D
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Finished today at 3:00 AM. It was worth it.
I felt that Brandon got every character almost exactly right, except Mat. Mat, I wanted to strangle. He was too goofy for me. It's like Brandon took Mat's character and pushed him just a little too far down the "Mischevious Trickster" Path. Mat is a Mischevious Trickster, but he seemed to be trying to be funny all the time. What's funny about Mat isn't the way he talks, although he does sometimes say some clever things, but rather the circumstances he's in and the way he reacts to them. I felt like Mat was trying to be funny too much, and as a result he came across as a different character to me. I didn't like him. The Legends scene in particular didn't fit. His reaction to Mandevwin (I think that's his name) thinking (or pretending to, at least) that he actually had a great aunt he was staying with were intended to show how he thought that Mandevwin was an idiot. But Mat wouldn't have said that, he would have been exasperated and thought about how Mandevwin was an idiot, but when he responds by saying "You don't have a great aunt!," it looks like Mandevwin is clever and Mat's an idiot. That's what really threw me. Mat seems to be less clever because he sounds like he's trying too hard.
By the way, I'm kind of making this up as I go along, so I'm only now realizing just what it was about Mat's character that annoyed me.
Also, saidared? Really? I about cried.
There were just a few other words that were really jarring to me. For whatever reason, whenever a character said, "Bloody Ashes," I mentally went, "What? That should read 'Blood and Ashes!' Hmmm...."
I realize this sounds really critical. It's me ranting because I need to rant about Mat's character. And kind of in the hope that it gets back to Brandon that Mat is just a little over-the-top so that he isn't as much so in the next one. But I liked the book quite a bit more than it sounds like I do. In fact, it was one of the best WoT books so far. The pacing was much better in my opinion, and since we seem to be reaching the end, that's a good thing. Most of the character's reactions were very real, and I thought Brandon did a good job of juggling the various cultures.
Honestly, with the number of characters that there are in this series, it's a miracle that there weren't more characters that I felt were off. As is, I really appreciate Brandon's skill. He was the right choice to finish the series.
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[applause] Bravo! Very well done! [more applause]
I feel sort of hungover from reading this book, but in a good way. Overall, I rank this book up with The Shadow Rising on my favorites to re-read list.
To me, this was a very meaningful book, just on content alone. It is also more of a turning point, I think, with characters and storylines lining up and pointing to the Last Battle.
Yes, there were certainly some passages that felt a little odd to me, but not in a bad way. Once very near the beginning of the book, though at first I thought it was just getting back into it, upon re-read it does seem odd or off, but since it was a new character I didn't mind at all and thought it was refreshing to see regular people. Mat was a bit much in some places, to me he was in character but a little too much in some places, though that might have to do with character growth, being married, etc. "Saidared it" did not seem like Jordan thing, but to me it seemed very much like a Mat thing. It was also a LOL moment for me, which led to a bathroom break I desperately needed at the time anyway though that was a struggle with my foot asleep from sitting in the same position too long.
Like every book of this series, I wanted to strangle certain characters for being the way they are. I mean, really, almost every character in the book is stubborn the point of personality disorder, but that made it all the more true to the series for me.
Egwene was one of the best parts of the book I think, not suprised but very satisfied to see her defending the Tower against the Seanchan for one thing, I was beginning to worry she'd be in a cell and miss the fight. As I felt she had been through the last few books, she combines the strength of character she started with, plus what she learned from Moiraine, the Aiel Wise Ones, Siuan, etc. while at the same time seeming to lose her self-doubt.
Min was also a stand out for me, her internal dialogue, understanding of why everyone is wrong to try to handle and control Rand instead of just trying to help him and her studies to try to help understand some of the prophecies to help him. Nynaeve saying "I wish Moiraine was here" was fantastic, as was her at least understanding Rand's POV as was him actually explaining something in the first place.
Cadsuane irritated the hell out of me, as usual, and I want to not blame her for Semirhage, but at the same time, who does she think she is to forbid anything? Her character, not Brandon's portrayal of her, is one that just makes my teeth grind. It's like, she sometimes gets it but then still goes about everything the wrong way. I loved her spanking Sermirhage and making her eat off the floor though, that was one of many unexpected and very rewarding scenes in this book.
Rand finally understanding that not using balefire only benches the Forsaken was one of the FINALLY moments for me, and this book had so many of those. Others have expressed suprise at how dark Rand seemed to be at times, I was not suprised at all and enjoyed it. Rand's scenes with Rodele Ituralde were great, really great on a few different levels for me, as was his meeting with Tuon.
One stupid thing: at one point Min calls Rand 'looby' and I think that's supposed to be 'farmboy' and a line editing error. It threw me, as misuse of saidin and saidar in passed books threw me off.
I did miss some of (I don't know exactly what to call it) the gradiose,dramatic syntax mastery of Robert Jordan. You know, like "on a day of fire and blood and the one power" kind of thing, maybe it's still to recent since my reading and I'm not done with my first re-read yet. It seemed to me the closest I came to finding/feeling those moments came from Egwene's speech near the end, instead of finding it in the narrative. Sorry, I don't have the right vocabulary to express what I want to say here and that's pretty ironic, considering what I'm trying to talk about.
I could go on and on and on, but will wrap it up by saying this book made me laugh, cry and grind my teeth by turns. I think everyone who worked on this book should be congratulated and proud. I'd call it a triumph for Brandon Sanderson and a long awaited reward for fans, especially fans that have been reading for so, so long. It's the beginning of the end of the Wheel of Time and it feels like it.
I first started the series in 1991 when my then boyfriend stumbled on The Great Hunt in a bookstore. It was not long before the release of The Dragon Reborn, but we had a hard time finding the The Eye of the World. I read a few chapters of the The Great Hunt and refused to read more until I got the first book of the series. Anyway, not to be cruel or insensitive, but after The Shadow Rising/Fires of Heaven, I started thinking how much I hoped and prayed the author would live long enough to finish the series. Long, long before his illness of course, but reading the author blurb about writing until they nailed his coffin shut just fed my paranoia. I worried when hurricanes threatened the Charleston area, things like that. Well, we all know what happened and I still hate it for his family and his fans. That said, now my fear is my own death before this series is finished. It's up there right behind watching my son grow up and have his own family as things I hope to see before I die.
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"looby" has been used before: TDR ch. 45, CoT ch. 3, and KoD ch. 30. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/looby
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Brandon,
I skipped work and spent all day yesterday reading TGS. I have to say, for several reasons, some of which have been mentioned herein, your writing is SPECTACULAR. I think you were able to capture most of the characters very well. There were some things that were noticable, such as Mat being a little bit more serious and using bigger words than he usually does, and a couple of other characters that were a little off. Egwene was awesome, I think you captured her well, and in fact, I found her portion of the story even more interesting than the other parts (even Rand included). I really liked how you got into Rand's head a bit more. The part where he taps into the true power gave me goose bumps.
I was a little disappointed with the part where he and Tam meet, I gotta say. I think more time could have been given to that--I hope you follow up in TOM on that piece. Otherwise though, I thought this book was spectacular. Also, one thing you did VERY VERY VERY VERY well was tie in memories and sequences from the previous books--all the way back to EOTW and TGH, which really made us old readers get that warm fuzzy feeling.
Thanks alot Brandon. You are going to be one of the great fantasy writers of all time I think. I can't wait to read Way of Kings now. I really am looking forward to that, after we get the rest of the Wheel of Time. :)
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Brandon;
I first picked up Elantris after hearing you were taking over WoT. Figured I should read some of this new guy. I've read Elantris, the Mistborn Trilogy and WarBreaker.
Let me say this:
"Veins of Gold" (Chapter 50 I think) is, in my opinion, the single best thing you have written. That whole scene is just incredible. I don't want to give a thing away, but that was simply an incredible few pages. So short but everything just comes together in that one moment. At the end of that Chapter I really got a "here we go" feeling that 'the end' of the series was really starting.
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I did miss some of (I don't know exactly what to call it) the gradiose,dramatic syntax mastery of Robert Jordan. You know, like "on a day of fire and blood and the one power" kind of thing, maybe it's still to recent since my reading and I'm not done with my first re-read yet. It seemed to me the closest I came to finding/feeling those moments came from Egwene's speech near the end, instead of finding it in the narrative. Sorry, I don't have the right vocabulary to express what I want to say here and that's pretty ironic, considering what I'm trying to talk about.
I know exactly what you mean. I felt that this was the standout strength of Robert Jordan: his ability to take a cool scene and just draw it out perfectly in a way that gave you chills while you read it. I knew it would be missing in the new book, and it makes me sad that we'll never see the final volumes as RJ would have written it.
But BS really did a phenomenal job here. With the exception of Mat and a few stylistic differences, everything just felt *right*. Rand was fantastic - I have a hard time believing that RJ could have done a better job with that plot arc than BS did. It is undoubtedly a WoT book, and a far better one than anyone could have hoped for. Brandon deserves a standing ovation for saving the series.
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Thanks for the read!
My very first impressions were a roll of the eyes. Everything was a bit off and a touch goofy. I agree with the poster above that Brandon was over the top with Mat. I'll throw in Thom for good measure. The problem was that they talked too much. Such as Thom saying something like "I wouldn't be surprised to find Olver in my saddle bag. He really wanted to come!" The first part is fine but the second is obvious.
Other than that..... Awesome.. just pure awesome. The story is all Robert Jordan and the execution by Sanderson brilliant.
Once our lovable stand-in hit his stride I could not tear my eyes away. The entire second half of the book just rolled. The ending was perhaps the most satisfying of any of the series so far. In years past each book had sections that I dutifully plowed through to get to more interesting things. Not so here. Every thread was relevant and I NEEDED to collect the information presented.
The part with Verin? Awesome.. I cried. The wheel of time has never got me to do that before. I'm a 30 year old guy. The only other book to make me cry was "Hero of ages" Coincidence? No Ta'veren.
Oh and one last note, before I go off and waste my day wistfully pondering the delight I have beheld; you can burn them and you can burn me, but you can't burn it. That one pulled me out of my suspended disbelief more than anything else. I don't think RJ EVER used the phrase "burn it" and I don't think it fits the language of the era.
Keep on keeping on
With much much respect,
Daniel
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"burn it" appears in The Great Hunt chapter 49.
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Peter you are right. It is there. The full context is "Tear it up. Burn it." Rand is referring to the picture of himself at Falme. He literally wants Moraine to burn it. It is not being used as an expression. That is funny that it is in there though. I did not stop to think of other contexts.
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Boo! I took a chance that it wasn't that. And I got burned. :)
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I was right! I was right!
/me does the happy dance.
*** SPOILERS ***
I still can't say where I came across the idea that Verin was black Ajah ... in reading through book four I have not come across it again ... but I said she was still working for the light, regardless.
I'm hoping we see her again, somehow ... some of the things she said obviously showed she hoped to survive through the time of her revealing herself.
I just finished the book, and like several others have mentioned, I most loved the parts with Egwene and the White Tower. Wonderfully done. So now she has the whole tower behind her, and is free of hidden members of the Black Ajah (at least for the most part).
While Rand's parts in this book did not do much for me, I am glad to see from the last bits that he seems to have realised he was heading the wrong way ... hopefully in the next book I'll enjoy his bits more.
Brandon did a great job, overall. I enjoyed the entire book, though like everybody else, Mat didn't ring quite true for me.
Probably will be more to discuss in time, but for now, GREAT JOB, BRANDON!
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Well that was definitely the best Wheel of Time book in years. My compliments, as well as a mental cattle prod for you to move faster. ;) You struck the perfect balance between the ways the characters react to each other, and showing us what they're really thinking underneath their own thoughts. The stuff they may not admit to themselves. That's always been the hardest thing to get right in this series.
Overall... I just can't wait to meet Rand again for the first time. More than anything, it feels like that's what will happen in Towers of Midnight. I can't wait for him to talk to the other Two Rivers kids, as well as his three... girlfriends. And Tam. Possible above all else, Tam. I read a fair amount of comics, and this is reminding me a bit of the most angsty stories about Superman having to come to terms with his identity. Is he Kal-El, or Clark? And then talking to his dad again, realizing that the man who raised him mattered more than most anything else. And I like the bit of symbolism of him doing the impossible. Scaling Dragonmount yet coming back down alive. I admit I peek at the bits of poetry at the beginning and end of each book. The ending one here unsettled me at first for some reason. But read in context, it was wonderful. At first I was upset that the series was being extended by another two books, yet now I'm excited to spend that much time around the Dragon truly reborn.
Egwyene's chapters were all fantastic. I can't say much other than that about her. I just hope she forgives Suian quickly, and her and Gawyn figure each other out quickly as well. Nynaeve's stuff was great, although now I really fear Lan dying. May this be another confusing red herring seeing by Min. And about Min herself, (One of my favorite characters in the series.) it was great to see her say some true common sense to Cadsune and Nynaeve. Stop trying to make him do what they want, and just help him. It's about time somebody said that. The two even seemed a bit mollified by it. The Verin twist was just... awesome. I don't truthfully recall why we were meant to suspect her of much craftiness aside from the normal Aes Sedai idiosyncrasies, but I recalled know we were meant to be looking for something. This reveal was fantastic, and damn well played.
I'm not the closest of readers when it comes to tone. The only time I think I noticed parts written by you rather than Jordan were with Mat. He was writtin a bit to obviously comical, and Talmanes as well. Not that either were bad, both were more amusing than ever. Just not their normal selves.
I'm guessing the next book is chiefly Ahviendha's, Egwyene's, and Rand's again. And of course the team which will finally rescue Moiraine. Mat, Thom, and dun dun dun.
And... does anybody else think that the final chapter with Rand was the actual reason that this "trilogy" was originally meant to be called A Memory of Light?
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The novel was a strange mix-it wasn't Sanderson, and it wasn't Jordan. It was a hybrid novel. To be honest, for an epic series like this, I would have preferred RJ's style, but the next best thing likely is Sanderson. As has been noted before, perhaps the biggest departure from RJ's style was with Mat; his humor was more overt, and he cracked more jokes. RJ was capable of creating characterizations, but in a more...gradual...manner. The pacing of the book was very similar to KoD, which made it different from any of the first 10. You get the feel that the plot has already been set up, and what's happening is simply the unfolding (or, WOT-talk, unspinning) of the previous buildups. (Dominoes are falling in order)
SPOILER.......
I had a few "Wait...what?" moments, the greatest was after finishing, when I realized that Min's injuries hadn't disappeared after Rand's balefireing of Semirhage. Another was towards the end, when I realized that the chapters weren't perfectly aligned (Rand refers to Mat and Perrin's activities before we see them.)
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Min's injuries came days before Semirhage got BF'ed. With the amount of power Rand used she may have been burnt back a day or two but not back as far as Min's injuries. Brandon and Team Jordan got the right of it.
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Amazing book, couldnt put it down
I did have one question. since when did Tam join Perrin? is that something i missed in a previous book or is that something that will happen in Towers of Midnight when we get the full perrin/matt/elayne arcs?
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Tam, along with other Two Rivers men, joined Perrin when they attacked the Aiel camp to get Faile.
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Ah, I had written a long reply in some other forum... And, yes, I registered so I can reply to this thread :D
I hope I don't come out as a spammer - I really do have a lot to say about the book :)
The book was really awesome. I am easily placing it on par with the first Wheel of Time books - the ones the entire WoT community agrees were the best ones. The setting is definitely darker, something I am starting to identify as Sanderson's style, but the original WoT feeling is still strong - the men are still wool-headed, the women are still flaming :D
One thing I noticed - despite the fact that we have the standard viewpoint characters, only few of them actually have developing story lines. Rand changes a lot (I'll talk about him specifically below), but even though Mat and Perrin travel quite a bit themselves, there is no real change in their characters. There is a conflict brewing in Perrin, and there is something about Mat becoming... what was it, husbandry? But that was all from them... Much like Nynaeve, Suian, and even Tuon (Fortuona, anyone?). Yes, there was some action, but... not really.
Now, let's talk Rand. OMGWTFBBQ! I felt so... so... so excited when he touched the True Power. Vengeance incarnate, ladies and gentlemen, vengeance incarnate. The reference how he had leveled up from steel to cuendillar felt a little weird, but I get the point. Sanderson definitely did an awesome job making me hate on of the characters I previously loved so much - which was supposed to happen, of course, otherwise the ending wouldn't be as good as it is. But back to Rand's hardness - I was scared for the boy. The decisions he started making, the fear he instilled, the ruthlessness that started to show up, and the brutal coldness were all very interesting shifts in character. Yes, he was rough before, but after that encounter with Semirhage things just started to get plain scary.
One thing I loved about this change though - Lews Therin. Telamon has always been my number one favorite character in the series, despite the fact that he is... a little dead. Seeing more of his sane part, seeing him think of himself as "we" now, and seeing Rand use the occasional "us" instead of "me" were all indication that there is a merge in personalities between the two - thereby fulfilling Min's vision from a few books back. Lews Therin growing more sane, Rand going more insane; Lews Therin reacting to events from Rand's life (how he added Elmindreda Farshaw and Ilyena Therin Moerelle to Rand's list, how they discussed the Dark One's imprisonment...), and Rand starting to actually feel, instead of just remember events from Lews Therin's life (the palace, Ilyena, referring to Moridin as Elan, ...) - brilliant.
And going even further down the path - the moment when Rand destroyed Graendal. Intense. I expected him to do something like this, but seeing it happen, and how he shrugged it off - gives you the shivers.
And, of course, the ending. How he almost killed Tam, how he couldn't bring himself to destroy the Seanchan, and the contemplations on the top of the Dragonmount. I must admit, I was worried all the way until Lews Therin said "Why? Could it be... so that we can have a second chance." That's when I knew almost with certainty that there will be redemption for Rand. I was half hoping the last chapter will be Rand Traveling to Tear or Caemlyn, rushing into the room where Min/Elayne was, and just hugging her tight, laughing genuinely all along. For the sheer surprise of him doing something that would've been so out-of-character a few chapters ago.
[Other users' replies]
Rand slaying Moridin makes too much sense, it is too logical to be the answer :D
The two women to complete Rand's circle... Yea, we have quite a few to choose from. Elayne, Avhienda, Egwene, Moiraine. I am not sure how Rand will feel about Aes Sedai in the next book - his distrust came from his paranoia that everybody wants to control him. I have a feeling he won't be the same ass after his revelations at the end. Maybe, just maybe, this aspect of him will change too...
Now, the note Verin left to Mat - and many others, I would guess - baffle me. I didn't pay attention to how much had passed after their meeting and Verin's death, but the Brown sounded like she planned to come back. It didn't look like she intended to waste much time in the place she was going to visit. Of course, the author could have deceived us easily, or Verin could have not known about how things would go in the White Tower, but something still bugs me about the whole story. As far as the action letter goes, I haven't a single idea. It's a set of instructions, telling Mat to do... what? Go somewhere? Meet with Rand ASAP? Find Perrin? Those are somewhat obvious, so I'll rule them out. It probably has to do with the Black Ajah/Forsaken, and maybe a plot against Mat. We'll see, and I think we'll be surprised.
Asmodean... as I mentioned in the previous thread, I think Brandon knows who killed him. And knowing Jordan, we'll probably learn too... very close to the end of Memory of Light.
[In response to a reply that mentioned ToM's status bar indicating 70%] Brandon can write fast. I've been keeping an eye on the progress bar, and he's moved 15-20% in the last month. I think we can expect Towers of Midnight sometime next Spring. Summer at latest.
Egwene's story line was intriguing to me as well. I think she handled the situations well, and grew quite a bit as a character. I only wish Elaida had performed better - her downfall from the last...2-3 books has been tremendous. Unreal even. I just can't imagine how Elaida from the first few books, that strong, emotionless and regal woman could turn into this... child, throwing tantrums, and not being able to neither think, nor reason. I hope we get to see more from her, even captured by the Seanchan. Maybe a heroic rescue?
[More users' replies]
It seems likely that Mat will be the instrument of peace-forging between Rand's empire and Seanchan. I hadn't thought of that, although it's fairly intuitive.
I don't think Perrin is with Rand. Verin had no reasons to drag him along too, and I don't think he would abandon his army. And there was indication than an entire army has arrived in the city, so it's safe to assume that he is still traveling normally.
Rand and the True Power... I am not sure how I feel about that. Or what I think. Rand wasn't quite sure what he was accessing - it looked like he knew, but completely ignored the consequences of it. But now that there is no longer distinction between him and Lews Therin, I think he'll be careful using it; after all Lews Therin was feeling stabs of panic every time Rand would even think about this Source.
As for the saa and who can touch this Power, it looked like Rand just seized the power. It might have been given to him by the Dark One in an attempt to tempt him and then break him (which nearly happened), but it looked like he just took it. If this is correct, then the Dark One, in a way, tells the Forsaken how to access the True Power, and is usually not mad at them if they use it. But Rand didn't need neither permission, nor guidance - he just grabbed it. So this event is either a very interesting plan of the Dark One, or a huge hindrance for him.
Also, about Moridin - he sounded tired in the dream. If Rand was more civil, the two would really like old friends chatting before the fireplace. I wonder what such unwillingness to destroy Lews Therin implies...
[And even more replies]
Here's a thought about Seanchan. Rand saw that the people in his empire are unhappy. He also saw the the lands ruled by the Seanchan prosper. We know that he has to kneel before the Crystal Throne. I am starting to think that he will give up control in his lands - fulfilling the prophecy - and focus on his own battles against the Forsaken and the Shadow. Hopefully go and save Lan's ass.
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Here's a thought about Seanchan. Rand saw that the people in his empire are unhappy. He also saw the the lands ruled by the Seanchan prosper. We know that he has to kneel before the Crystal Throne. I am starting to think that he will give up control in his lands - fulfilling the prophecy - and focus on his own battles against the Forsaken and the Shadow. Hopefully go and save Lan's ass.
I hope not. I'd bet that if he went slumming in his own empire he would find the people would say much the same thing about him. I do hope he saves Lan though.
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My slightly more detailed thoughts on several subjects:
Rand and the TP - Rand grabbed the TP through Moridin. That's why he saw Moridin's face right as he grabbed it. The Forsaken have to be specifically given access to it, and I doubt (though I don't know for sure) that the DO could or would give Rand access to the TP on the spur of the moment. Particularly right as Semirhage has just captured him and can control him for the Shadow.
An interesting theory that I had seen brought up is that Rand seals the Bore with the TP. After all, when Lanfear first drilled the bore, no one could sense the DO's prison, so either a) it's not made out of saidar or saidin, or b) it's made using inverted weaves, which is entirely possible, but seems a little odd. I mean here's Rand, "Hey, I know we're in the middle of a cataclysmic event here, but let me take a minute to reverse this weave for no apparent reason.
The only issue with that theory? The TP comes from the DO. So, I can't really see it imprisoning him. But I like the theory.
Hmmm... what else? Oh, yes, Graendal's not dead. You'll see.
Verin's note to Mat contains to location of the Horn of Valere. Mat's gonna need the sucker pretty soon, and it's currently MIA.
Rand's circle with Callandor - Him drawing on the TP through Moridin, and the prophecy at the end of TGS about "three will become one" makes me think that Rand uses Moridin as part of his circle, maybe by reaching through him like an angreal type deal. This causes a freaky merger thing to happen (ie the bodyswap theory), fulfilling the prophecy. Not really sure on that one.
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Rand reaching through Moridin... eh, I can't really refute the theory, since there is almost nothing we know about the weird relationship between the two from the time when their balefires touched themselves in Shadar Logoth. But I agree that it looks unreasonable for the DO to give Rand access to the TP right after he had given Semirhage a second chance to capture him. And she looked to be pretty successful.
Rand using the TP to seal DO sounds very plausible. We saw Lews Therin muttering about how the reason the DO was able to taint saidin was because he was able to "physically" touch it. So if Rand & co. want to finish the whole business and not taint one of the two Sources, they will need to use the TP. But again, it's too logical, too easy to think of. So there is probably a twist to it.
The only issue with that theory? The TP comes from the DO. So, I can't really see it imprisoning him. But I like the theory.
If I read it right, the True Power is the Dark One.
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Who made the connection of standing on his own grave was litteral? It just so happen's to be 3k years old... great ending. The major frustrations i had with the book were b/c of how well written it was. Gawyn is a self-rightous brow beater and reading him is like talking to some arrogant prick you know you can't hit.
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The only logical reason I can think of for the DO to give Rand access to the TP is if the TP is naturally corrupting, and the DO wants him to use it. Which makes sense if you think about the fact that Moridin said that Semirhage was not to be released, and then she was released shortly thereafter, only to be killed by Rand using the TP. The entire escape could have been intended to get Rand to use the TP, with Cadsuane getting banished as a convenient side effect.
I still like the idea of Rand grabbing the TP through Moridin better, though.
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I noticed that the women seemed less catty.
Also, Brandon broke the Cardinal Rule of WoT, he had people talk to each other :o ;)
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Here's a thought about Seanchan. Rand saw that the people in his empire are unhappy. He also saw the the lands ruled by the Seanchan prosper. We know that he has to kneel before the Crystal Throne.
Actually, no. One of the things that Ishamael was able to do while the rest of the Forsaken were imprisoned was alter every single copy of the prophecies that went over the ocean with Hawkwing's armies (this is canon, not a theory). So when their prophecies say that he has to kneel before the Crystal Throne, it's probably not true.
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looking back, I think the character who was changed the most was Nyneave. I missed her temper and woolheadedness. She was far too understanding, and i missed her. Fantastic book, but my favorite character was.... missing.
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She's slowly been changing... and favorite character? How? She and Faile are the most hated characters in Wot! ( I personally dislike Gawyn the most b/c like i said he's self-rightous)
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Ah, one thing I forget. While I spoiled myself on the epitaphs, I didn't read the chapter names. So when I got to the chapter titles "Veins of Gold" I had a shiver. I knew things would be okay for Rand. Or at least better. Finally the laughter and tears. Wonderful throwback there. Those scenes in Winter's Heart were some of the best in the series, and yeah, some of the oddest, but what the hell? Avhienda Min and Bridgette getting drunk is always a hoot.
I noticed that the women seemed less catty.
Also, Brandon broke the Cardinal Rule of WoT, he had people talk to each other :o ;)
Honestly... I tried to dance around it in my comment, as it seems blasphemous especially now, but this. Good god this is why TGS was so great. There is no doubt that Jordan was a masterful idea man, and godly at assembling vast amounts of threads at a time, but the characters rarely really talked. I about never got the impression that Perrin, Mat, and Rand were friends. Nor that a lot of the love stories were as real as we were meant to believe. It was just that nobody talked, and everybody was a bit of an ass to each other. It created a feel that a lot of the love stories were "love at first sight, and done." I gave up on Eye of the World once, but the world drew me back. The books picked up in every regard after that, even this. But even after the characters talked more, they weren't around each other that much. Eventually I also picked up on Jordan's style, and sort of saw what I thought he meant through many of the interactions, but the damage was still done.
And the women... were way to catty to each other. Nyneave especially. Again this was improved as things went along, but again, the damage had already been done.
I do love the series, don't get me wrong. But I honestly feel that part of why it was so long was just that nobody ever talked reasonably, creating plot threads that simply had to last way to long because the characters didn't have realistic conversation with each other. Everybody was to guarded about everything. Not a problem when people don't know each other, but this went on even among life long friends.
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RedMars, I have to disagree that Rand, Mat, and Perrin didn't seem like friends. They seemed tight until Perrin started talking to wolves in his head and Mat went paranoid, and even then the communication between the three didn't really falter until it was realized that Rand could channel.
Your right about the falling in love issues though.
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I suppose you're right, but that was still only about half of Eye of the World. And yeah, they still treated each other like friends, but they didn't seem to talk like friends. Their conversations around each other were much to guarded to me, even at the beginning. There wasn't much of the sense of familiar casualness to them which friends have.
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Their conversations around each other were much to guarded to me, even at the beginning.
Most of their interactions were likely to be overheard by others, as we never saw them just wandering around the fields shooting the breeze. I think. I'm a fair distance out from EotW.
Besides, all of them were pretty scared and not wanting to show it about the Myrddraal. Acting tough around each other or whatever. They were teenagers, after all. :P
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Well, that's all true. But it went deeper than that. It was how they thought about each other. None of it seemed very... friendly. I think we're both uplaying this example due to it being the chief one I gave, but I merely meant it as part of an overall problem. Bear in mind I don't think this is as huge a problem as this discussion may be making it seem. I do love the series, and I absolutely cannot wait for the next two books. It's just that I think characters in this series are to harsh to each other, and don't talk and share information enough.
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Agreed. :)
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Just finished the book!
It was well worth the waiting, hats off for Robert Jordan and Brandon.
PS. Did anyone else notice that Rand seem to have regained he's hand when he sists down ontop of the dragon mount to think? (last page of the chapter)
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I see nothing about a hand...
Perhaps you can quote?
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Chapter 49
Last page: 754
"Then he rested his elbows on his knees and his head on his HANDS stairing at the diminutive statue of the man with the globe."
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I loved the book. It had a fantastic ending. Overall, I think Brandon did a great job writing the characters. They weren't quite how RJ would have written them, but I enjoyed Brandon's rendition of them. Rand, Elayne, Min, Cadsuane, Egwene, etc... all seemed like the same characters we've been reading for years. The only character that didn't work in this book was Mat. I love his character, but Brandon didn't quite get it right. Mat came across as TRYING to be funny. That's not who Mat is. Mat often makes us laugh by the situations he's in and how he responds to them, but he came across in TGS as trying to be a comedian. The things that Mat did and said in TGS were funny, but they weren't things that Mat would say or do. That's why his character felt "off". It almost seemed like Brandon had taken Topaz (or another funny character from his other books) and tried to apply his personality to Mat. It didn't work.
I've read many people's opinion about the book on these forums and others. Many people have the same feeling I do about Mat's character in TGS. It seems to be the only recurring complaint about the book. How can we make sure Brandon gets this feedback? Hopefully he can address the issue in ToM.
I think Brandon knocked it out of the park with TGS. Mat's story line will be a major part of ToM, so I'm a little worried if Brandon doesn't modify his rendition of Mat. If Brandon can portray Mat a little more accurately I think ToM won't just be a home run, it will be a grand slam.
Thanks Brandon!
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"Then he rested his elbows on his knees and his head on his HANDS stairing at the diminutive statue of the man with the globe."
Wow, I didn't catch that. I'm assuming it was a typo, but we may have to wait a year to find out for sure.
Graendal - I'm pretty sure she's toast. I believe the people who thinks she somehow lived through the book are over-thinking it. I don't think that whole scene was designed just to fool all of us into thinking Rand got her. If she pops up again in the series I will be EXTREMELY surprised.
Rand channeling the TP - I believe Rand was only able to channel the TP because of his connection (merging) with Moridin. Rand seeing the blurry face (Moridin) right before channeling the TP is evidence of this. I don't see any evidence of the DO suddenly giving Rand access to the TP. That doesn't make much sense. Rand and Moridin are merging together as a result of their crossed balefire. I believe this is also the meaning of Min's viewing - "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."
I think Rand having access to the TP (through Moridin) is going to be the key to him defeating the DO. Using his own power against him kind of thing. This idea clicked for me as soon as Rand started channeling the TP. Anyone else get the same vibe?
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I noticed a difference in Mat, however I think too much is being made of it considering the changes he has gone through during the series. Let's run down some of what we know about him.
He lost parts of his memory because of the taint from the dagger, gets these holes filled with memories from historical military heroes, dies and is reborn, gets the tables turned on him by Tylin and courts and eventually marries Tuon. Reading through the series, Mat's character has changed dramatically through each incident, it's no suprise that marriage would lead to another change.
I don't think I changed much when I got married, but I have a bunch of friends that are night and day different than when they were single. I've known guys that cussed up a storm, farted during normal conversation and peed in sink so they wouldn't miss a NFL play before they got married and now never utter a single 4 letter word or break wind in public. But really, come on guys, have you heard of a DVR?
On top of all the circumstances Mat went through, we don't know what RJ had already written and we don't know where Mat's character arc is supposed to end up so I'm not worried in the least.
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I don't see any evidence of the DO suddenly giving Rand access to the TP.
As pointed above, the TP is very closely related to the DO himself. It might be his essence even. And it's known to corrupt. Put that together with the fact that in the beginning of the book it didn't seem like Semirhage was going anywhere, and the DO's sadistic sense of mercy, and you can get a picture where the DO decided to free Semirhage and see if she handles Rand "properly". If she did as the DO wanted, he would let her live and serve. If she deviated from his plans, he would let Rand touch the TP, balefiring two birds with one stone (Rand starts walking the path of corruption that ultimately leads to the DO, and Semirhage the disobedient servant is disposed of).
And speaking of Rand and corruption, there is something else I noticed. Is Rand the one that causes the food to go bad? Before, his ta'veren nature would manifest itself in balance - equal quantity of good and bad things of equal quality would happen. But in this book, now that he has access to the TP*, more bad events seem to be occurring when he is around. As if the probability has shifted in a bad direction.
And another note on the corrupting nature of the TP. Did the rooms going slightly darker around Rand result from him embracing this new Source? I am almost positive that this was the case, but often times things one finds obvious are far from logical to his peers.
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Mat tried to be funny? huh? He was worried out the *explictive* about Tuon! Combine that with moving an army and he didn't have the time to be funny... there was no such attempt made! and is the above quote real and if so please refrain from trying to critic anything further b/c the use of critical thinking skills gives reason to believe the DO meant Rand to have access to it....or at the very least a possibility to ignore the possibility is a farce.
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Kaz, you completely lost me.
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Vatdoro's quote about the True Power is asinine.... and when someone says something stupid you should say so (& yes that applies to me)
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My impressions:
I felt like I totally lost Rand as a character for a while, with no longer being able to relate to him, but that has been a feeling growing inside me for several books now. This has nothing to do with Sanderson... it has been a steady progression of me going from feeling a bit like Rand from Eye of the World to not really seeing eye to eye with him. His last scene, however, fills me with hope.
The True Source incident... I literally jumped out of my seat. So FREAKING AWESOME how that worked. But now I want to understand why he was able to use it (not to mention, I want to find out if my guess about Rand using the True Source to seal the Dark One this time around is accurate...).
Verin's scene... interesting, as I've thought before that she seemed like she was up to something, and interesting because she found her own way to try and make amends. Very good twist, whichever one of our master storytellers conjured that one.
Mat, who has long been a favorite of mine, seemed even better in this book, for some reason. He was funnier (especially with Talmanes, haha, great stuff... those two had some good scenes in this one!), and I like the 'married man' motif going on there. I hope his arc with the Tower of Genjei are in the next one!
Speaking of towers... The Tower Stands!
Only thing I would have liked to see in here that we didn't really get is I want to know what's going on with Taim. And I'm starting to wonder if we're going to be rid of Fain by the time the series is over as well. He's really seemed to be a chaos factor this whole time... what if he doesn't get destroyed?
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Oh, something I just thought of. Or recalled rather.
Egwene's speech from the last (?) chapter felt a little out of character for her I think. I am by no means an expert, but to me it felt like the speech was coming from somebody far more forceful, willful, even manful than Egwene. I realize her words were supposed to be as I describe them - forceful, willful - but I think it was too much of those things.
It might be just me, of course. But I think words like this would come from someone like Mat, when he gets carried away by his instinctual memories (e.g. when he came up with a battle plan against Shaido in minutes, while Lan & co. too hours).
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Oh, something I just thought of. Or recalled rather.
Egwene's speech from the last (?) chapter felt a little out of character for her I think. I am by no means an expert, but to me it felt like the speech was coming from somebody far more forceful, willful, even manful than Egwene. I realize her words were supposed to be as I describe them - forceful, willful - but I think it was too much of those things.
It might be just me, of course. But I think words like this would come from someone like Mat, when he gets carried away by his instinctual memories (e.g. when he came up with a battle plan against Shaido in minutes, while Lan & co. too hours).
Keep in mind, we spent this book watching Egwene grow into her Amyrlin shawl. She had been raised by the rebels, but she didn't really learn what it meant to be Amyrlin until she was captured by Elaida's group.
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Yes, I am well aware of this. But her conversations with the Novices in the Tower, with the other Aes Sedai, with Elaida and Meidani, and even with Siuan - none of them portrayed her as forceful as she seemed in that last speech. And that is not necessarily a bad thing - it might be intended, to show growth and all that.
I recall Brandon, Dan and Howard discussing writing groups in one of their Writing Excuses podcasts, and one of the things mentioned there was that one of the best critiques an author can receive is one that tells him how the reader felt, not what he thought. Well, I am just trying to explain how I felt about Egwene there at the end - I felt that she was a little off :)
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The Semirhage scene seems to be one of the most popular topics here, here are my two theories regarding it.
a) Semirhage was released as the DO wanted her punished, knowing what would happen. Aside from the fact that she was recently "broken" by Cadsuane and might be spilling secrets, it would not seem out of character for the DO.
b) The true power is not actually the power of the DO. The DO's prison was created from it (as has been stipulated before) and as such, it has become tainted by proximity (similar vein to filling hole with Saidin) to such a point that he can manipulate it (and hence 'control' it). Rand is so ta'veren maybe the control slipped. This may also fit with the theory that Lanfear did not 'knowingly' bore open the DO's prison, but this was only my impression from reading it.
These theories do seem kind of contradictory. If the DO didn't control, why release Semi with the collars as punishment (although there is the other reason of Cadsuane)?
Thoughts?
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But her conversations with the Novices in the Tower, with the other Aes Sedai, with Elaida and Meidani, and even with Siuan - none of them portrayed her as forceful as she seemed in that last speech. And that is not necessarily a bad thing - it might be intended, to show growth and all that.
I think people fail to realize just how much of a change a person can go through after experiencing difficult or extraordinary circumstances. I would hope after almost single-handedly repelling a Seanchan raid, ordering the execution of over 50 Black Ajah, mere seconds from ordering an attack on the White Tower itself and raised as the rightfull Amyrlin seat all within a 48 hour period of time, that she had experienced some growth or at the very least a loss of composure when speaking in front of the remaining Aes Sedai.
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You all jump on me like Aes Sedai on a fox-head medallion :)
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And you have only one of the people that aren't newbs here on your butt! Just wait were like wolves, first we circle our prey THEN go for the kill. VegasDev likes to play with his food though. :P
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*stares defiantly*
Inde muaghde Aes Sedai misain ye!
I appreciate a challenge!
However, going back to the topic at hand - I have no issues with Egwene growing. Light knows, it was about time she really took control over her supporters, instead of just letting them scheme. But such a drastic change... And even assuming she was capable of changing so much, the voice in that speech wasn't hers. I did not hear Egwene speak - at least not most of the time. Her comments about shame and duty were alright. But the rest really felt - to me - like something one of Sanderson's male leaders would say (e.g. Raoden, Kelsier, Elend).
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So much awesomeness * moment of silence and contemplation*
First of all I have to say I loved Matt! I wish he had been this funny throughout the whole series. I was laughing out loud with the whole "great aunt scene" Hilarious.
Rand...rand rand rand. You worried me there for a minute, but glad to see you worked it all out.
Egwene just rocks. The end. Although I am concerned that she may have outgrown Gawyn now. She has matured so much and really grown into her role, that Gawyn seems kind of left behind in High School.
Thank you Brandon Sanderson for sharing your talents with us and honoring Robert Jordan so well.
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Brandon,
I'd have to say amazing job with this book. I loved it, one of the best ones of the series.
I think everyone has mentioned the matt over the top issue, but to be honest I chortled all the way through those sections. Its bad because you immediately think this is not how Jordan would have done it but at the same time you felt like you were listening to a "whose on first?" slapstick comedy somehow being oddly fit into the world of WOT.
So bottom line if you want to bring the RJ back into the next book will you tweak the matt character? I hope you'll give use some feed back on this. Or keep the comical Matt. Either way I enjoyed it.
SPOILER ALERT!
Written just like Jordan, drawing out these inner turmoils until somebody burst in the end. Rand's struggle, becoming this monster who was basically a stone cold killer and every book that had developed all this love and friend relationships with him seemed to be about to crumble. But then to finally reunite him with his father which set up the emotional conflict was so well done. The final realization that Rand and Lus make together of the Why question being to love again really hit home. So it was hard to read up to the end of the book with Rands story but the ending totally makes up for all the heartache. I do wish there would have been a better one liner said by rand when he offed Graendal. Oh and Egwaynes story was so compelling. Awesome edition to the WOT series
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Just registered.
I can only say. Great book.
Brings back memories from the first 3 books.
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Just finished it ;D Overall, I thought Brandon did an amazing job. There were a few things that seemed a little out of place for me (esp. Mat), but most of the time I was just wrapped up in the story. I'm guessing that he didn't spend too much time on the Mat chapters as I noticed a couple of typos, so hopefully Mat will be a little more back to normal in the next book. I thought the Egwene chapters and the Rand chapters were both really well written. The Rand chapters were pretty painful to read and the Egwene chapters were just awesome. I loved the "Brandon avalanche" at the end. It's so great to read a WOT book where stuff actually happens again :)
Regarding the hands thing, I would guess that it was either accidental, or it just sounded better than "Rand rested his head on his hand and his nub." That would kind of kill the moment.
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Or he fufilled the kingfisher prophecy and has his hand and sight back.... though this is VERY doubtful
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I personally thought Nynaeve was portrayed the most differently between RJ and Sanderson. Her opinion of Moraine has always been annoyingly idiotic as in blaming her for everything that happened to the boys and Lan. I much prefer this portrayal where she wishes Moraine was present. Sanderson made her far less annoying.
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it makes me wonder if Brandon thinks balefire destroys souls. I hope not. (Balefire interfears with the method the Dark One uses to resurrect dead Forsaken, but that's specific. It doesn't destroy souls or prevent rebirth.)
Um... that's exactly what it does? By definition it burns one's thread from the Pattern. They disappear completely, utterly, and with finality.
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it makes me wonder if Brandon thinks balefire destroys souls. I hope not. (Balefire interfears with the method the Dark One uses to resurrect dead Forsaken, but that's specific. It doesn't destroy souls or prevent rebirth.)
Um... that's exactly what it does? By definition it burns one's thread from the Pattern. They disappear completely, utterly, and with finality.
No, someone killed with balefire can reincarnate.
http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html
Edit: And Balefire doesn't undo all of your actions, only some, depending on the strength of the Balefire.
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I stand corrected. But I never claimed all of their actions disappear from the Pattern.
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Sorry, the "utterly" and "completely" confused me.
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He didn't add anyone to that belief all of them believe that we know otherwise from outside sources... and those of us who don't view them see it like the characters do....else you wouldn't have had Argent Sun make the statement he made. Not too mention Nyneave's views toward Moraine have slowly been changing since her "death"... it's slow almost subtle but the process has been going on for half the series...
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I don't, or didn't, follow the outside stuff until KoD came out, and I never thought of Balefire as making it so the Wheel couldn't spin you back out again.
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Rand AND Moraine claim that balefire burns their thread out of the pattern...
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What page was it that Nynaeve "misunderstood balefire"? I don't remember it.
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After Rand destroys the castle Grendel's at
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First Impressions.
Well...mostly frustration.
For me, the breaks between Brandon's writing and Jordan's writing were obvious.
Brandon needs to spend more time on the next two books. He needs to spend time on getting Mat's chapters right and also in getting the "important" chapters right. i.e. -- the ones where really important stuff happens. Like when Rand uses the True Power. And when he talks to Tam. And when he's on top of Dragonmount. They just didn't have it. I'm sorry, but they didn't.
In the end, I'm glad that it's finally out, that it came fast, and that we can get the story.
I just really hope that Brandon can spend more time on the next two books (and not have to rush so that Way of Kings can come out on time. Really, I don't understand why Tor is pushing him to do that one right now. Grumble, grumble...) and get the important stuff right. Please.
Please.
This deserves everything.
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Finished today at 3:00 AM. It was worth it.
I felt that Brandon got every character almost exactly right, except Mat. Mat, I wanted to strangle. He was too goofy for me. It's like Brandon took Mat's character and pushed him just a little too far down the "Mischevious Trickster" Path. Mat is a Mischevious Trickster, but he seemed to be trying to be funny all the time. What's funny about Mat isn't the way he talks, although he does sometimes say some clever things, but rather the circumstances he's in and the way he reacts to them. I felt like Mat was trying to be funny too much, and as a result he came across as a different character to me. I didn't like him. The Legends scene in particular didn't fit. His reaction to Mandevwin (I think that's his name) thinking (or pretending to, at least) that he actually had a great aunt he was staying with were intended to show how he thought that Mandevwin was an idiot. But Mat wouldn't have said that, he would have been exasperated and thought about how Mandevwin was an idiot, but when he responds by saying "You don't have a great aunt!," it looks like Mandevwin is clever and Mat's an idiot. That's what really threw me. Mat seems to be less clever because he sounds like he's trying too hard.
By the way, I'm kind of making this up as I go along, so I'm only now realizing just what it was about Mat's character that annoyed me.
Also, saidared? Really? I about cried.
There were just a few other words that were really jarring to me. For whatever reason, whenever a character said, "Bloody Ashes," I mentally went, "What? That should read 'Blood and Ashes!' Hmmm...."
I realize this sounds really critical. It's me ranting because I need to rant about Mat's character. And kind of in the hope that it gets back to Brandon that Mat is just a little over-the-top so that he isn't as much so in the next one. But I liked the book quite a bit more than it sounds like I do. In fact, it was one of the best WoT books so far. The pacing was much better in my opinion, and since we seem to be reaching the end, that's a good thing. Most of the character's reactions were very real, and I thought Brandon did a good job of juggling the various cultures.
Honestly, with the number of characters that there are in this series, it's a miracle that there weren't more characters that I felt were off. As is, I really appreciate Brandon's skill. He was the right choice to finish the series.
I was going to write about my opinion on TGS, but this comment made it unnecessary, it says it all.
To me, Brandon Sanderson made a wonderful job, really. Except for Mat. And as I read threads on the net I see that I am far from the only one thinking so. I think there IS substance to this belief, and I hope that Mr Sanderson takes some time to think about it.
One other thing that bugged me was the characters general "understanding thinking" about themselves and their nature. One of the series general topics have been Rand's, Egwene's, Nynaeve's and the others good insight in their friends needs and nature, and the same time their failure to see their owns (Like it usually is in real life..). But this is however probably due to Sanderson's own writing style, and I think it is ok for him to leave some marks in the writing that it is he who is finishing this amazing series.
So a last message to Mr Sanderson (In case you have the time or interest to read it):
Thank you for a great achievement with the first of the last books! It is NOT an easy task you have, and you should feel great pride to what you have achieved so far.
But please, please take a moment to think about how you adressed Mat's character. I know I 'm in no way some judge whose words should be followed, but I also know that you are a very skilled writer who care for both yours and Mr Jordans fans.
Enough butter eh?
All the best!
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You people are really making me feel like an inferior fan for liking Mat in this book... I'll have to go back, re-read it more carefully and see what throws you off.
It is probably the fact that I've read books 1-10 in a different language, so I don't have a feeling how Mat sounds in English...
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Also, saidared? Really? I about cried.
There were just a few other words that were really jarring to me. For whatever reason, whenever a character said, "Bloody Ashes," I mentally went, "What? That should read 'Blood and Ashes!' Hmmm...."
Ok, so saidared seemed wrong to me, but it was still funny. However, it took me out of the scene.
On the other hand, I saw nothing wrong with "Bloody ashes". We've seen characters say "Blood and ashes," we've seen characters say "Blood and bloody ashes" and unless I'm mistaken, we've seen "ashes" alone used as a curse... so why not "bloody ashes?"
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Dear,
WriterDan
What the heck are you talking about? Veins of Gold is one of the best things I have ever read. The talk with Tam and the confrontation with Semi were also, I feel, excellently done.
Yours,
Aranfan
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I put Mat's change in behaviour down to (and it has been devolping in recent books, just not as stark) his use of cynical sort of humour to deal with the world as it gets more troubling (which it is). I liked Mat in this book, and couldn't give a monkeys if this makes me an 'inferior fan' as ArgentSun put it.
And as for "saidared"... of course it's not part of the usual lexicon of WoT, but Mat has always been different. I think many people seem to think he was seriously using the word 'saidared', but it was just a joke on his part.
I didn't find that it took me out of the book at all.
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I want to know how he tried to be funny? He was to damned worried to care about humor!!!
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I read the Mistborn series and Elantris prior to 'the Gathering storm' and I must admit I became a fan before the release.
Brandon, in my mind, was definitely the right choice to complete RJ's work and I have to say that I wasn't disappointed with the book. One of the best in the series in my opinion.
I received my signed copy from Sam Wellers the other day and promptly emailed Brandon to enquire why he scribbled his name out...He wrote back and told me that his sig needs some work.....! :D
Ahem. :-[
Apologies Brandon.
Can't wait for the next release now but I agree that Mat needs some work for the next book to pull his character's continuity back in line. That's the only nit picking I'm doing though.
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The True Source incident... I literally jumped out of my seat. So FREAKING AWESOME how that worked. But now I want to understand why he was able to use it (not to mention, I want to find out if my guess about Rand using the True Source to seal the Dark One this time around is accurate...).
Rand crossed balefires with Moridin, and their dreams are coming together now, too. I imagine they have a certain amount of access to each other's powers as a result, hence why Rand can touch the True Source when only Moridin is supposed to be able to.
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I had a thought.
Is it possible that Rand's sickness when he touches the One Power is because he is coming in stronger and stronger contact with the True Power (via Moridin)? The two powers are opposites, I'm certain.
Incidentally, I am absolutely certain that forcing Rand to touch the True Power was an integral part of the DO's plans. It seems too pat, too much like how I would do it if I were the Dark One trying to destroy the world.
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The second one was a duh statement. The first however was very observant and i hand't considered it. Thanks happyman!
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The second one was a duh statement.
I thought so too. But I've seen people contest it at the theory sites, so I guarantee it's not a slam dunk, logic-wise.
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SO, i haven't read through the whole thread, but i just recently got and finished this book, and the only thing that I have a question about is this:
Rand's "aura of evil" : What is it? Is it because he was touching the true power? Or is it something else entirely? If it's the TP, we've never heard of this happening before now when moridin seizes it, but we haven't had too terribly much exposure to that. At first i thought everyone was just perceiving evil intent in him, but then it started doing things (like souring that tea), so it's clearly not just a "wow, he feels mean" funky vibe.
As far as the book itself, I loved it. Couldn't put it down, dedicated every free moment to finishing it.
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Someone asked about that at one of the signings and reported the answer here (http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,49575.msg1337908.html#msg1337908). Pay particular attention to the second paragraph:
I was at the signing in Roseville, MN last night and asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the dark ones touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?
Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Roberet Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the stroy. When people complained that only bad Ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an examples that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.
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Pretty cool! I was pretty certain the spoiling has to do with Rand, but I was attributing it to him being extremely strong channeler and using the True Power. But the "one with the land" thing is way cooler - I had forgotten it.
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hrm...interesting. Extrapolating, so does this mean that the reason food and plants are unable to grow in the current year are because of rand, then, instead of the DO...?
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It would seem to me that if Rand's ta'veren thread was starting to fester (for lack of a better word), this would spread to nearby threads, causing all the bad stuff.
As for plants and the whatnot growing, that would seem to be to be a RAFO moment, though the dragonmount scene at the end might give credence to that sort of idea.
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well, most stuff we ask about is likely to be RAFO stuff, obviously, if not the series would be finished. But speculation is fun! :D
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Maybe all 3 ta'verens together as one holds the key to the end?
instead of influencing threads around them, maybe they will control the whole pattern. combine this with the unity of male and female power and the true power could be turned against itself wielded by good against evil.
the end.
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Loved it loved it loved it!!!
Although, I do agree about the Mat parts. It seemed like Mat=Lightsong. I still loved it, though. I think he stayed completely true to all of the other characters, and mostly trueish to Mat.
I loved all the action (even though at one point I was like "Avalanche!" - but then it slowed down.) Everything that happened was amazing. Egwene vs. Seanchan was the best part of the book - - that and Verin.
I was also SO happy that my Gawyn is back. *sigh* I don't know why everyone hates him. I think he's perfect. haha I think Egwene should have kissed him or SOMETHING at the end, but whatever. Now this thread has me all worried that they're going to break up. :/ (no, i'm not 12...i'm 24...) *sheepish grin*
Even though I felt that it was true the characters, I noticed I felt more sorry for Rand and liked Min MUCH more than usual (since book 7, I've basically hated them both). We saw more of the internal workings and the girls (avi & min) expressed their feelings about sharing Rand, etc. I wonder if I like them more because of Sanderson's input...?
My heart wanted Min to survive when Rand was killing her, but my brain kind of wanted her to die. She really bugs me. But...that would have been very tragic...I guess...
It shows how realistic these books are because of how different people like different characters and relate to different people so well. I hate Rand and Min -- someone else hates Gawyn, Nynaeve and Faile -- and I ADORE those characters...
These books are amazing, and so was TGS. Thanks RJ & Brandon!
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"The dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon"
That's an old old old olllllllld! theme in Western lit and legend. You can see it in Arthurian legend many times, that the king and the land are bound together. I think that's one thing I love about WoT... RJ took many of the classic elements of fantasy and wove them together in a way that I don't feel is cliche, and when it is, I love it despite the cliche. Which is more than I can say about Star Wars and fantasy cliche, haha...
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There was a theory on WoTmania.com that i think is very likely. It went like this: taveren change the threading of the pattern the pattern makes up the DO's prison, the reason all 3 taveren must make it to the Last Battle is because once the seals are removed the pattern could heal itself around their area of influence and all they have to do is survive.
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Speaking of the land.... I was thinking back over the series as I was waiting for TGS to come out and remembered "with this sign he will conquer" Rand stood on an ancient symbol of the aes sedi when he killed the darkhounds in ruidean.
Anyway. The east and north are supposed to be united as well as the west and south. it kind of makes a big yin yang symbol out of Rand land. Curious anyway.
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@wolfstar
As long as they don't start accepting novices based on their midichlorian count, I shall remain happy.
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As long as they don't start accepting novices based on their midichlorian count, I shall remain happy.
But just think of all the wonderful crossovers! Hans solo helping the girls escape Tanchio, wookies teaching the Aiel their ways, and it can all end with an epic light saber duel with Rand, Darth Vader, Moridin, and Obiwan! Also: it'll have boba fett~!
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@Eerongal I suggest you stop, lest someone shoot you and recieve a medal for it....
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From the overall feeling in this thread, I guess I'm one of the few that actually preferred Sanderson's Mat to the original. Then again, I never overly cared for Mat much and have been known to skim his chapters in the past. Sure, he's the trickster with the heart of gold, but I always just felt he whined a little TOO much for my taste. I can only put up with so much "I'm no bloody hero" over and over. I much prefer the new Mat.
Veins of Gold is one of the best things ever written in the WoT Universe, it was wonderful and moving. I can't wait until we see Rand in the next book and find out what happens.
Well done Brandon, and congratulations!
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It's a big book, and I couldn't read through the entire thing again, quite yet, but today I sat down and read the entire White Tower storyline, plus Veins of Gold.
I still love the way the whole White Tower storyline was written, and while I still fear Egwene will want to have too much control over Rand, I am a lot more open to her White Tower than to Elaida's.
But the part that got me thinking was reading for a second time the closing bits from the prophecy after Rand's time atop Dragon Mount.
Something along the lines of "And the one who was blinded shall see again, standing on his grave.""
Looks like we may not have to expect to see Rand lose his eyes ... it sure sounds like that might be metaphorical, and just came to pass. Other thoughts?
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Although, I do agree about the Mat parts. It seemed like Mat=Lightsong. I still loved it, though. I think he stayed completely true to all of the other characters, and mostly trueish to Mat.
Lightsong! Every time I read Brandon Sanderson's version of Mat, it just reminded me of one of his other characters, but I couldn't remember which one. Lightsong was it!
I know a few people prefer the new, more comical Mat, but I prefer the old one.
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Either RJ uses good old fashioned dry humor and i haven't paid attention or everyone in this thread is off... Matt was MUCH funnier in previous exploits
Edit: he sounded more like a nervous wreck forcing himself if anything
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Something along the lines of "And the one who was blinded shall see again, standing on his grave.""
Looks like we may not have to expect to see Rand lose his eyes ... it sure sounds like that might be metaphorical, and just came to pass. Other thoughts?
I don't remember the exact wording, but I do remember specifically noting that it was phrased as if Rand were already blind and regained his sight right after standing on his grave. The only way this makes any sense is if the blindness is metaphorical, referring to him not understanding the true nature of strength and what kind of character he really needs to be. This makes even more sense when you consider that it is, just like all the Prophecies of the Dragon, a translation from the Old Tongue, which is well known for being complex and having multiple meanings for words.
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I agree, Kaz. Mat's attempt at humor in this book wasn't very funny.
And did anyone else feel like the whole village-killing-each-other-every-night story wasn't very WoT?
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@Eerongal I suggest you stop, lest someone shoot you and recieve a medal for it....
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u266/eerongal/TGST.jpg)
;D
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Is that a heron-mark light-sabre?!! How did one so young come by it? Surely it is not his own.
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I here by declare open season on Eerongal!!!!
P.S. try not to ruin the pelt it's exotic!
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P.S. try not to ruin the pelt it's exotic!
It's all fuzzy! :D
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Are you the missing link?
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Are you the missing link?
Past times include: Taking long walks in dense forests, and posing blurrily in out of focus pictures.
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Just finished the book a few days ago. I never realized how slow a reader I am until I read that some people finished this book in one sitting. This was an awesome book start to finish including the Mat chapters that some people didn't care for. Besides the first Mat chapter, I didn't think BS did that bad of a job with Mat's POV.
I'm assuming that since this thread is marked *Spoilers* that Spoilers are OK...
OK, so I was wrong and Min didn't get killed, but I was close. Almost predicted that one correctly, but no corpse.
I couldn't wait to get to the part of the book that everyone was saying was so shocking that they had to set the book down for a while. I think the scene they were talking about was the one where Rand went after Graendal. This was a powerful scene, I actually went back and reread parts of it, but it wasn't so shocking that I had to set the book down. I actually agreed with Rands decision. It was a hard decision, but one I believe to be a correct one.
There was a scene that made me set the book down though. That was after Egwene was officially raised to Amyrlin. No matter how I think about it its stupid to require the rebels to apologize to her. What a slap in the face! To me it's the same as if Germany after WWII required all Germans who helped the Allied Forces to apologize for rebelling against Germany... What would the Blue Ajah have to apologize for? Wouldn't Egwene owe them an apology? What about all the women who Egwene recruited as novices, why would they owe an apology? Then she picked a Red to be her assistant? How is that going to promote unity when she's thrown everyone who's supported her under the bus?
The way she treated Suian I thought was despicable. Egwene left the camp leaderless by her choice, and when the camp was faced with a difficult decision, what does she do? She reprimands the one person who grabbed the bull by the horns and took control of the situation. Did Suian make the right decision? Hard to say, but someone in the camp had to step forward and make a decision, and the fact that Egwene wouldn't stand by Suians side is kind of upsetting. I'm hoping that in ToM, that Egwene is faced with more problems of unity because I will find it disappointing and unrealistic (Yes, I know I'm talking about a fantasy series) if the Tower is all of a sudden a happy family.
The Chapter Veins of Gold was one of the best chapters in the series I think
I suppose it's easier to talk about things that bug me as opposed to the things I really enjoyed. Anyways did that sequence with Egwene bother anyone else?
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I suppose it's easier to talk about things that bug me as opposed to the things I really enjoyed. Anyways did that sequence with Egwene bother anyone else?
I didn't agree with some of her thought process, but she seemed in character.
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I hate Egwene's attitude she is Aes Sedia high and mighty, "I'm more important than the Dragon and everyone else" to the core. Her arrogance is so damn absolute!!!! Though i found myself agreeing with most of her political decisions.
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What is the White Tower though? Is it a set of beliefs and principles that have stood the test of time, or is it just a building? Egwene seems to be suggesting that it is just a building and you should never go against it. Egwene was raised by the Rebel Aes Sedai and the White Tower Aes Sedai, that's what I call a position of power. She should have then negotiated w/ the Red from that position.
Egwene instead without negotiations grabbed a political prisoner, one many in the Red will view as a traitor, and raised her to a high position. I think many in the Red will see this as weakness on Egwenes part. The Blue Ajah would just have to be so....upset. They had to apologize because they were unlawfully kicked out. I'm really hoping that there is more fracture and disunity in the next book.
I can suspend disbelief for many things, but I can't suspend disbelief when it comes to people. People don't change. Laws change. Beliefs change. Technology changes. Names change. Nationality changes. People however don't, which is why everyone has heard the phrase history repeats itself. It repeats itself because we are emotional creatures, and our first response is always an emotional one. It's why people can relate to scriptures and stories written thousands of years ago.
Here's an example of what I mean:
Homeless guy standing on the side of the road by a stop light w/ sign saying: Please help feed my family. God Bless You. There's also a couple pics of his kids on the sign. Which is your response?
A) Roll up your window, Lock the doors. Don't make eye contact until the light turns green
B) Roll down your window and give the poor guy some money, so the poor guy can feed his family
C) Roll down your window and yell, "You got a family and this is the best you can do! Get a job, Loser!!!
D) None of the Above. You have too much time on your hands, and don't know what your talking about...
Sorry, I got side tracked a little bit. Point being, I'm not going to buy the happy unbroken Tower scenario if thats whats going to happen. If anything I think she may have more problems with disunity than before.
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She should have then negotiated w/ the Red from that position.
That would imply that the Reds were separate from the rest of the Tower and had their own authority. Not at all an idea Egwene would want to suggest.
Egwene instead without negotiations grabbed a political prisoner,
Specifically a prisoner of Elaida, imprisoned for standing up to her.
one many in the Red will view as a traitor,
Traitor? Why? The Red Ajah is in disgrace, so much so that the other Ajah heads did not include them in their plans and no Red Sitters were present for Egwene's raising. They are in disgrace specifically because of Elaida and what she did as Amyrlin. Silviana is a Red who stood up to Elaida and spoke out against her. Considering how thoroughly Elaida messed up as Amyrlin, that is exactly the kind of person the Reds would want representing them in the public eye - someone they can point to and say "see, we rejected Elaida too!"
and raised her to a high position. I think many in the Red will see this as weakness on Egwenes part.
Weakness? In her? Every Aes Sedai in both the Tower and Rebel camps has had abundant evidence that Egwene is anything but weak. Her raising of Silviana to Keeper was explicitly stated as a gesture of reconciliation and unity, implying that she would not view the Reds as a separate and disgraced entity from the rest of the Tower despite their recent history. Egwene could have disbanded the Red Ajah entirely, just like Elaida did the Blue, and she probably would have gotten away with it. All the Reds know this. Relief and gratitude that she didn't and that they're not in disgrace any more is likely to overwhelm all other reactions.
The Blue Ajah would just have to be so....upset. They had to apologize because they were unlawfully kicked out.
I saw that as more of a formal gesture to say "we're not the victorious conquering side, we're part of the united White Tower." It was not an apology for opposing Elaida or for getting kicked out, it was an apology for breaking the Tower. Regardless of what Elaida did, there were ways to react to it that would not have publicly split the Tower, and Egwene is just driving home that the split is over and she will not favor either side over the other.
I'm really hoping that there is more fracture and disunity in the next book.
I can suspend disbelief for many things, but I can't suspend disbelief when it comes to people. People don't change.
People and their behavior don't change, no, but they are also very complicated, and I think you're missing some important factors that would affect them this time.
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Douglas answers most of your complaints to my satisfaction above. But I want to elaborate on the apology.
Egwene didn't have the Rebel Aes Sedai apologize for being kicked out. She had them apologize for raising an Army and laying Siege to Tar Valon.
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Egwene didn't have the Rebel Aes Sedai apologize for being kicked out. She had them apologize for raising an Army and laying Siege to Tar Valon.
Well my main problem with that, is that it was HER idea to formally go to war with the tower. That was how she got her real power as (rebel)Amyrlin seat in the first place! The other rebels reluctantly agreed (in fact were tricked) into the vote.
We see things from her perspective, which gives us insight. But what if you were a Rebel Sitter. You knew that the formal declaration of war was her idea, and it was her in charge of keeping it up. But after you help her reclaim the White Tower, she demands that you apologize to her for besieging the White Tower....Most people would be pissed if they were in that situation.
Instead of an apology she should have acted like there was never a rift (think prodigal son). Think about it this way. If your family had a huge falling out because your brother was verbally abusing your wife, and you stopped talking to him because of it. Everyone in the family had to take sides and there was a huge rift, and your sister sided with you and told you shouldn't see him or the side of the family that sided with him until he changed. If your brother took some therapy and stopped the verbal abuse, how would you feel if your sister demanded for you to apologize to the other side of the family when you all were reunited once more? I know what my answer would be.
While all of this is anti-Egwene I think its important to note that I think her decisions were 100% in character. These are the same types of problems people have been having with Egwene since day one
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We did look at it as a rebel but then we looked at it as a loyalist and we understood why it NEEDED to be done less the political fractures NEVER be repaired.
Edit: on a different note Inquisitor asked Brandon if Min's viewing over Rand merging with someone else had been fufilled and the answer was RAFO... which we took to mean no. Due to the fact that LTT has gone bye bye, I think it is safe to say he will merge with Moridin.
Someone needs to ask him about the scene in which he puts his head on his hands....
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Personally, I think Egwene has done a wonderful job -within- the White Tower, and I agree with most of her actions and statements. I think almost every choice she has made for the White Tower as a whole has been a good and positive thing.
I think, suspect, and hope that she has ensured that she will have a tower that will have a hard time crossing her as an organization, because of how much they needed her, and what she has already provided. Yet I also think and hope that the situations leading to her being placed in power will mean that the tower will be a little more outspoken if they disagree with her. I'm hoping for more honest, and less hidden and scheming. Not that the AS will not always be scheming ....
My problems are all going to be in regards to the WT and the rest of the world. Here's hoping that she remembers that she, herself, made the point that ruling the AS was not supposed to be nothing more than might makes right.
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Re: Egwene
She has become a leader, and basically her part in the book was demonstrating this. Part of being a leader is making unpleasant decisions that will have an overall healing effect. The rebel Aes Sedai NEEDED some humility so that they could accept the loyalists. Nevermind whether they are right, the Tower needs healing before Tarmon Gaidon (which all buildup seems to suggest is later this afternoon). If the rebels continue to shun the loyalists with the apparent backing of the Amyrlin, it would remain split.
Basically, I'm sure Egwene didn't want to rip out her supporters, but she NEEDED to. Keep in mind Egwene is the sort of sister to give herself penance (probably not that common).
My opinion: Brandon = good job on Egwene.
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I think the fact that people disagree with me makes my point. If we as readers can't agree on this then the White Tower definitely isn't going to be happy. For the record, I'm not saying the writing is bad, or that Egwene is out of character, or anything like that, just that I hope she has more more work to do in unifying the White Tower. Because there are bound to be some Rebel Aes Sedai who feel betrayed. Perhaps not a large amount but a few, and there's bound to be some Reds who look down upon Silvania.
Weakness? In her? Every Aes Sedai in both the Tower and Rebel camps has had abundant evidence that Egwene is anything but weak. Her raising of Silviana to Keeper was explicitly stated as a gesture of reconciliation and unity, implying that she would not view the Reds as a separate and disgraced entity from the rest of the Tower despite their recent history. Egwene could have disbanded the Red Ajah entirely, just like Elaida did the Blue, and she probably would have gotten away with it. All the Reds know this. Relief and gratitude that she didn't and that they're not in disgrace any more is likely to overwhelm all other reactions.
What I meant by weakness is if you believe that the White Tower is more of a set of beliefs and principles, a way of life than just an actual building then the real "rebels" would be the Red. Egwene, in my mind, should have made the Reds apologize for going against the White Tower, not the Blues. Instead the first thing she did was raise Silviana to try to win support from the Red. Egwene came off as being very needy of the their support, which is what I viewed as weakness.
On the other side, Elaida was Red and favored the Red, so the Red were the most powerful Ajah in the physical Tower. Now all of a sudden they have a new Amyrlin raised without them using their own distorted laws. They are now disgraced and to a certain degree powerless. By that I mean there's hard feelings, which will limit ones influence.
That's a big change of events don't you think, going from the all powerful Ajah to the belittled and disgraced Ajah? Many Reds are bound not to like that turn of events. Now as a Red, what would I see? I see the Blue Ajah, which I helped disband, have to apologize to the new Amyrlin. As a Red, I might see that as a justification for disbanding the Blue. Then I see the new Amyrlin who appears so needy of my support that she practically trips over herself to raise a Red to get my support.
I'm not saying that Egwene is a weak leader, just that from a Red's perspective she could be seen as being weak. After all the Blue had to apologize while the Reds were raised to a high position. Of course some in the Red, I believe would view Silviana as betraying her sisters. You need a scape goat after all, and if its not Elaida then it would be Silviana. Elaida may have been a cause for pretty much everything, but she gave the Reds a lot of power and influence, so the Reds may not blame her completely.
I'm not saying anyones opinion is wrong. I'm not even trying to change anyones opinion. I'm just trying to clarify mine. Again I just hope that the White Tower isn't one big happy family because I won't believe it. I hope Egwene has a lot more work to do in the coming books.
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You lack political suave else you wouldn't quote Regean but yourself :P. Egwene needed to make the rebels apoligize or the loyalist would refuse to accept them (not to mention the apology strictly is about their actions as agressors not for the dispute over Elaida). The rebels however seem to be more tolerant and do not require an apology from the reds
(not to mention the reds are already on thin ice and an apology may destroy them).
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Instead the first thing she did was raise Silviana to try to win support from the Red. Egwene came off as being very needy of the their support, which is what I viewed as weakness.
I actually viewed it the opposite way: She was protecting the Reds from falling apart or being bullied by the rest of the Tower by lending them her support. She doesn't want anything back except a healthy Tower.
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You lack political suave else you wouldn't quote Regean but yourself :P. Egwene needed to make the rebels apoligize or the loyalist would refuse to accept them (not to mention the apology strictly is about their actions as agressors not for the dispute over Elaida). The rebels however seem to be more tolerant and do not require an apology from the reds
(not to mention the reds are already on thin ice and an apology may destroy them).
I understand what your saying. I'm just trying to point out that there is bound to be some Reds who feel the way that I described above, and there's bound to be some Blues who feel betrayed. If she would've made the decision that I think she should have made then she would've been faced with an entirely different set of problems too. I see her in a no win situation. I feel that there's more work for her to do and would find it unrealistic if the Tower was suddenly unified now.
I went back and reread a few chapters. Check out page 762 second paragraph down. I think I'm right I don't think the Tower is unified yet. Egwene received 2 letters of disapproval from Romanda and Lelaine.
Instead the first thing she did was raise Silviana to try to win support from the Red. Egwene came off as being very needy of the their support, which is what I viewed as weakness.
I actually viewed it the opposite way: She was protecting the Reds from falling apart or being bullied by the rest of the Tower by lending them her support. She doesn't want anything back except a healthy Tower.
I agree with you that's exactly what Egwene's motive was. I was just trying to show how an ambitious Red may have viewed her actions.
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Only a fool would say the tower has achieved stability or unity....
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I agree, Kaz. Mat's attempt at humor in this book wasn't very funny.
And did anyone else feel like the whole village-killing-each-other-every-night story wasn't very WoT?
I totally thought of "From dusk till down" during the whole "the-sun-is-going-down-RUN!" scene :)
The only thing missing was Salma Hayek in the tavern ;D btw, loved the "tipsy gelding" tavern name :)
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I personally found the Verin "reveal" to be horrid. Talk about "Magic Bullet" syndrome. How perfectly convenient. It felt as thought it was shoved in the plot to solve all sorts of problems in one fel swoop. Not only that, but her character was off. This bugged me more than Mat.
Other than that, I thought the book was fine. Not bad at all, but not awesome. It was certainly better than books 7-11. Egwene used to be my least fav character, but I really enjoyed her PoV here.
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Bookstore Guy,
Clarify for me, if you don't mind; Do you feel like the Verin scene was a late addition, or that it seemed cheap despite being foreshadowed for 10 books because of the timing? I seem to recall your dislike with this series having to do with how little the characters have developed recently. Are you now upset that you got your wish? Personnally, I feel that choosing to kill yourself in order to help the Light because the Last Battle is very near would "adjust" the way a character behaves somewhat (she had an almost Moiraine at the docks sort of calmness to her). As for Mat, by the time that first rant was done I knew he was being written as someone who's life had gone so far away from what he planned that he's been knocked completely off his game. You know you've fallen far when a character like Talmanes can bust your chops with such ease.
On the Hinderstrap debate, Brandon has confirmed that this storyline, along with every other one in this book, was conceived by RJ, and Brandon fleshed it out (I didn't get a vampire or zombie feel from this scene, although I can see why others would). He didn't add in any storylines himself.
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With regards to Hinderstrap, I feel that it was included because it represents a place even more damaged than any we have yet seen. That pattern is not just being bent; it has been severly damaged in this town. We are getting a full feel for what the world would be like under the DO (before he destroys it once and for all.)
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Bookstore Guy,
Clarify for me, if you don't mind; Do you feel like the Verin scene was a late addition, or that it seemed cheap despite being foreshadowed for 10 books because of the timing? I seem to recall your dislike with this series having to do with how little the characters have developed recently. Are you now upset that you got your wish? Personnally, I feel that choosing to kill yourself in order to help the Light because the Last Battle is very near would "adjust" the way a character behaves somewhat (she had an almost Moiraine at the docks sort of calmness to her). As for Mat, by the time that first rant was done I knew he was being written as someone who's life had gone so far away from what he planned that he's been knocked completely off his game. You know you've fallen far when a character like Talmanes can bust your chops with such ease.
On the Hinderstrap debate, Brandon has confirmed that this storyline, along with every other one in this book, was conceived by RJ, and Brandon fleshed it out (I didn't get a vampire or zombie feel from this scene, although I can see why others would). He didn't add in any storylines himself.
So you are saying it was foreshadowed for 10 full novels that Verin was going to show up in the nick of time as a Black Ajah double agent? In my opinion, that wasn't the case. She just had her own agenda like Cadsuane and every other Aes Sedai. That's not foreshadowing to me, just a portrayal of all Aes Sedai. Having her show up when she did was convenient, and cheap in my opinion. "Guess what! Im a bad guy! But not really! Here's a book to solve a huge majority of your problems." That's what it felt like for me.
I don't doubt that people loved the Verin section--to each his own. I just thought it was cheap, regardless of who wrote it. It felt like the culmination of a major plot thread that didn't have time to develop properly (which is no excuse in this series), and the culmination of a plot thread we really should have seen. It would have been much more powerful if we'd seen Verin struggle with it, or at least be in danger.
Now you say that I'm upset because characters are progressing and I don't like it? Did you read my second paragraph where I mentioned how pleased I was that Egwene went from horrible (in my opinion) to a solid character? Did you go to my book review blog and read the review of TGS where it is mentioned that the book was enjoyable despite what I consider some character issues? So no, I'm not "upset that I got my wish," because in some cases i didn't. And I AM pleased in Rand and Egwene (especially Rand getting over the "wont kill a girl" foolishness), who have been some of the biggest problem areas (again, in my opinion).
happyman--yeah, i got that about the Mat section, but I didn't enjoy it. i also understand how mat feels his world has been up-ended. for me, it was his attitude that was off. like him ignoring the dice because he thought nothing ever came of them. i just don't think the mat sections added anything that wasn't shown somewhere else. it felt like a deleted scene at the end of a DVD.
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So you are saying it was foreshadowed for 10 full novels that Verin was going to show up in the nick of time as a Black Ajah double agent? In my opinion, that wasn't the case. She just had her own agenda like Cadsuane and every other Aes Sedai. That's not foreshadowing to me, just a portrayal of all Aes Sedai. Having her show up when she did was convenient, and cheap in my opinion. "Guess what! Im a bad guy! But not really! Here's a book to solve a huge majority of your problems." That's what it felt like for me.
Specifically as a Black Ajah double agent? Something along those lines was among the more prominent theories about her, yes. People have suspected things well beyond the usual Aes Sedai personal agenda deal since The Great Hunt. Seriously, it was enough to get its own entire section (http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html) in the WoTFAQ. Knife of Dreams added more. I'd say the "Purple Ajah" theory was closest to correct. I, personally, was not the least bit surprised by the nature of what was revealed about her in TGS. Only the degree of it and the exact details of her Oath circumvention surprised me, and even those weren't much of a surprise.
There has been substantial evidence for a long time that Verin a) was not bound by the First Oath, b) was not strictly a bad guy gal, c) knew about the Black Ajah activity hunting the Dragon about the time of his birth, and d) had been working on an extremely long term completely secret and vitally important plan for 70 years. Black Ajah double agent is one of a very small set of theories that makes sense of all of that.
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I liked the Verin reveal, although I agree it could have been better foreshadowed. If I hadn't read the FAQ, I would have been really surprised.
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Purple Ajah...lol. Well whatever. Like I said, to me it felt cheap and rushed. I think it would have been much more powerful had we seen her journey in the Black rather than a conveniently timed "twist." But that's just me. I certainly don't expect fans of the series to agree with me.
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Jordan liked to be extremely subtle with clues and foreshadowing, quite a bit more subtle than he thought he was being. His insistence that Asmodean's killer is obvious being point of fact. I too didn't have any idea what was up with Verin until reading FAQs a couple years ago.
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Not just that, but a theory in a lot of these WoT scenarios is just a guess. That thread that was linked--while very cool--postulates all sorts of stuff. Mostly, it just ends up saying "something suspicious is going on with that chick" and "Verin obviously isn't bound by the oath rod." That's pretty common knowledge.
It's a great idea in theory--a black ajah realizing she is WAY over her head and figuring out how to absolve herself. I just think Jordan could have handled it better early on.
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But then we get to the issue that there was so much going on already, was it even possible to go into more detail? (by the way, I apologize for coming off so strongly in my last post. I don't remember it being so blunt. Stupid boss must have fired me up more than I realized) A lot of people lost interest because of so much detail. I wasn't really surprised by Verin's reveal, although I honestly can't say whether or not I figured it out myself. I personally didn't find it cheap (although I can see where it would appear to come out of nowhere ). I felt it helped convey the surprise that Egwene must have felt when she learned it. Had RJ been more specific with her internal struggles it would have given away the reveal. With so many betray the good guy plotlines in books, it was nice to see the bad guys get shafted for once. Her conversation with Egwene lead me to believe that she was a double-agent from the beginning, she didn't just come to her senses after the fact. She was investigating them and got too close. She then made the logical choice to continue spying on them from the inside, rather than be murdered.
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But then we get to the issue that there was so much going on already, was it even possible to go into more detail? (by the way, I apologize for coming off so strongly in my last post. I don't remember it being so blunt. Stupid boss must have fired me up more than I realized) A lot of people lost interest because of so much detail. I wasn't really surprised by Verin's reveal, although I honestly can't say whether or not I figured it out myself. I personally didn't find it cheap (although I can see where it would appear to come out of nowhere ). I felt it helped convey the surprise that Egwene must have felt when she learned it. Had RJ been more specific with her internal struggles it would have given away the reveal. With so many betray the good guy plotlines in books, it was nice to see the bad guys get shafted for once. Her conversation with Egwene lead me to believe that she was a double-agent from the beginning, she didn't just come to her senses after the fact. She was investigating them and got too close. She then made the logical choice to continue spying on them from the inside, rather than be murdered.
I get that outlook. But that whole "so much was going on already" thing I don't agree with. There have been so many times over the span of the series where nothing of note was going on. Or--lest I get murdered by fans for saying there were useless moments in WoT--at the very least adding a 1-2K PoV in every other novel building this moment better wouldn't have caused hardly any grief. And Verin wasn't a double agent from the beginning. She states that the hard-core oaths were a bit much, and it made her reconsider her previous alignment. It's not so much even that it was so abrupt (though I do have some issue with it). It the convenience that she was in exactly the right place at exactly the right time with the perfect information that was the most helpful at this exact moment. Even taking the "Law of Coincidence" that the Pattern imposes on WoT into account, it was TOO convenient. It's a reveal that probably should have already happened. My question to you would be, do you think this was the perfect way to handle this? I personally don't. I think we waited too long. Consider the reveal: It is actually 2 reveals. The "I'm Black Ajah" and the "But I'm still good." The definitive "Im a darkfriend" should have happened earlier, as it's own focal point. Then later, we get the "but i decided to be a double agent." by spreading them out, they gain more focus and importance. Oh wells. not like we can do anything about it now lol!
Oh and don't stress the tone of your prior post.
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And Verin wasn't a double agent from the beginning. She states that the hard-core oaths were a bit much, and it made her reconsider her previous alignment.
Yes, she was a double agent from the beginning. She states explicitly that she found herself in the position of choosing between joining them or revealing that she had never wanted to join them. Her warder was a darkfriend who changed his mind, but Verin was an investigator who got too deep to back out.
I'll find the exact quote for you when I get home if you want.
Personally, I think the four bits of info I listed in my last post, particularly the 70 year plan, were enough foreshadowing of her reveal. It was obvious to me that she'd been planning something extremely major that the Black Ajah would not approve of for a long time. She had also shown evidence of not being bound by the First Oath but still had the Ageless face caused by the Oath Rod, and she knew about a highly secret Black Ajah activity 20 years past. That strongly hinted that she was black, but her secret plan, the fact that she described said activity internally to herself as "vile", and the degree and nature of her cooperation with Rand all hinted at her opposing the Dark One.
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And Verin wasn't a double agent from the beginning. She states that the hard-core oaths were a bit much, and it made her reconsider her previous alignment.
Yes, she was a double agent from the beginning. She states explicitly that she found herself in the position of choosing between joining them or revealing that she had never wanted to join them. Her warder was a darkfriend who changed his mind, but Verin was an investigator who got too deep to back out.
I'll find the exact quote for you when I get home if you want.
Personally, I think the four bits of info I listed in my last post, particularly the 70 year plan, were enough foreshadowing of her reveal.
Ok - I read it as he was a darkfriend who didn't like the rigors of the oaths she was later forced to take, and then made the decision to be a double agent. But I'll take your word for it. I don't think those 4 bits were enough to say "Look! These 4 pieces of info mean she is going to be a black ajah double agent who will show up at the perfect time to solve tons of problems." And working on "something" for 70 years in secret doesn't really prove anything other than her being an aes sedai with a hidden agenda. Are non darkfriends not allowed to have secret plans? There could have been several explanations for Verin's actions, and now looking back on it, it is easy to say "oh yeah, everyone thought this. it was super obvious." Once again, it is the way the reveal was done that really bothers me, and how perfectly convenient it was. But I covered all this, as well as ways I think it could have been handled differently to make it powerful rather than convenient.
But whatever, we are just repeating ourselves lol!
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Purple Ajah...lol. Well whatever. Like I said, to me it felt cheap and rushed. I think it would have been much more powerful had we seen her journey in the Black rather than a conveniently timed "twist." But that's just me. I certainly don't expect fans of the series to agree with me.
You make me feel so unsophisticated! So undiscerning! I liked the Verin reveal as I read it, but would have liked to have replaced most of the Perrin-hunts-Faile nonsense (and Elayne-sifts-through-Caemlyn-political-intrigue yawn fest) with more about Verin, Hurin, Thom, etc . . . as well as scenes featuring commoners like in TGS prologue. Liked that. Of course, best would have been turning books 7-11 into two good, concise novels.
But oh, the cover art. Oh.
What's up with false eyelashes and push-up bras in Randland? (See also KoD) And Rand is a strawberry blonde Charles Bronson? I guess that's better than the middle-aged whatsisname (y'know, the sunglasses guy on CSI Miami) on the KoD cover. Is that even supposed to be Rand? And Perrin is a dwarfish hairy blondish Sean Connery, and not a young version.
Anyway, I rant. Thanks for another good review on Elitist, BSG. I thought The Gathering Storm dragged through the middle, but I still enjoyed it quite a bit. Brandon told us "Storm Leaders" the other night that he is not exactly pleased with how some of the story lines will end according to RJ's notes. But he'll have to write them that way. Interesting, huh? I'll read and enjoy whatever comes out.
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Yeah...the cover art just never gets better. Every time I see it I feel a little ill. My UK cover is beautiful, but the binding is SOOO bad. Think about this folks, if I--a person who is less than enthusiastic about the WoT--am pissed off and feel cheated by the binding on the UK edition of TGS, imagine how big-time fans feel. I feel a certain measure of outrage on their (the fans) behalf. It just didn't do good service to the faithful of this series.
mtbikemom--your last point interests me more than anything WoT related at this point. Im gonna talk to Brandon once this madness is finished and see if he'll expound on that for me.
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People have been debating that Verin was BA for years now, where you've been Bookstore guy? There was a line somewhere in the books about her making a "mistake 70 years ago" and that she wasn't going to let it go to waste or something like that. So yes I think there is back up for Verin being a double agent, ever since she said those fateful words "Moriane Sent me, Lord Agelmar"
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Excellent Excellent Book.
RJ's usual style was to fill out all of his books with useless description and make the read as long as protracted as possible, pretty sure that was to sell more books rather than for any other reason - but saying that the story line behind that was great and if you learned to skip paragraphs filled with useless description you could get a pretty good read.
I've been a Sanderson fan for ages as his books are just immense. You start reading and at no point do you think "get on with it", its just good solid action/interest/plot right the way through, no filler.
With this book i think i could pick out bits that were RJ (or at least overly RJ inspired) by the way i found myself slowly falling asleep reading a redescription of saidain etc but they were few and far between and mostly in the first 3rd of the book. By the time i got a 3rd through i just couldn't stop - after a 5 hour into the early hours of the morning read I am now blown away by the sheer amount of plot/action covered in a WoT book. Its like someone finally brought the series to full speed!! Hurray!
(spoilers)
Rand finally goes properly mental then gets over it, Tuon finally gets made empress and gets on with it, Black Ajah is revealed finally (Although being honest, that was plot inspired rather than it being dragged out), Choosen story starts moving and they stop being massive 2 dimensional wusses! Hurray! All in one book rather than spread over 4!!
So, yeah, Thanks Brandon! Your both awesome and way better than Jordan. Looking forward to the next two books, don't let Tor and Harriet bully you into splitting books again just to make them more money!!
Oh, and play red deck built around land destruction & direct damage. Always fun. Hope you can post the WoT inspired cards on your site sometime, would love to see them as a full version (careful of Wizards(OTC) getting smarmy about copyright). Love you! :D
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People have been debating that Verin was BA for years now, where you've been Bookstore guy? There was a line somewhere in the books about her making a "mistake 70 years ago" and that she wasn't going to let it go to waste or something like that. So yes I think there is back up for Verin being a double agent, ever since she said those fateful words "Moriane Sent me, Lord Agelmar"
Once again, I'm not arguing that there was nothing saying she wasn't BA. I'm pretty sure I've said that isn't my issue several times. I'm saying that, in my opinion, the manner and timing of the reveal were beyond convenient, and it served to cheapen the 2nd part of the reveal--that she was really a good gal. My last 4 posts have talked about timing and coincidence, not how surprised I was. Her being BA wasn't really surprising (and if anyone missed the "Moraine sent me" part, they surely didn't miss Moraine telling Rand not to trust Verin). It was more of a "Well crud, I was hoping for a cooler reveal. Oh well, at least now she can be evil...oh, never mind, now she's a double agent on her deathbed. How perfectly convenient for Egwene." The two "reveals" put that closely together don't add together and make each other stronger. They make each other weaker. As I said before, I personally feel this was poorly handled.
Summary:
1) I wasn't surprised by Verin being BA. I wish she would have had a big powerful reveal earlier and been in danger from the main characters.
2) I was surprised that she was a double-agent, but being so close to the focal reveal to Egwene that she was BA weakened the double-agent reveal and made it less important than it should have been.
3) Hindsight is 20-20. People can look back and say that one theory was perfect (even though there were dozen of theories that were simultaneously proven false). We could have had a dozen final outcomes that fit the small bits and hints that were given.
4) The timing of the reveals were rushed and coincidental/overly convenient. It is borderline Deus Ex Machina.
5) I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Verin turned out to be good. It helps further guarantee that the Light will win. It's like the Aes Sedai said, "What does it matter, we are going to win anyway right?"
6) This didn't ruin the book for me. While I'm not a fan of the series, this book was enjoyable overall (it wasn't TGH by any means, but still good).
I think we've beaten this dead horse enough. Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.
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I think we've beaten this dead horse enough. Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.
I'm a HUGE WoT fan, and I agree that the Verin reveal felt a little "too convenient and timely". Did that keep me from enjoying that part of the story or the whole book? No.
This isn't Brandon's story, but he's doing a fantastic job taking RJ's notes and finishing this story for him. I'd like to think the Verin reveal would have been done a little differently if RJ could have done it, or maybe Brandon did it better than RJ was planning, who knows?
I love the WoT and I think Brandon's doing a fabulous job finishing the story for all of us to enjoy.
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I think we've beaten this dead horse enough. Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.
I'm a HUGE WoT fan, and I agree that the Verin reveal felt a little "too convenient and timely". Did that keep me from enjoying that part of the story or the whole book? No.
This isn't Brandon's story, but he's doing a fantastic job taking RJ's notes and finishing this story for him. I'd like to think the Verin reveal would have been done a little differently if RJ could have done it, or maybe Brandon did it better than RJ was planning, who knows?
I love the WoT and I think Brandon's doing a fabulous job finishing the story for all of us to enjoy.
well said.
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RJ's usual style was to fill out all of his books with useless description and make the read as long as protracted as possible, pretty sure that was to sell more books rather than for any other reason - but saying that the story line behind that was great and if you learned to skip paragraphs filled with useless description you could get a pretty good read.
Really? You honestly think RJ and Tor couldn't have made as much, if not more, money by closing this series and writing outriggers? Even a whole new series would have made huge money, just because the author of the WoT wrote them. No, if anything this extended series has had a negative affect on revenue (just look at the number of people who stopped reading the series after book 5). No, this wasn't about money, it was about an author who loved the story so much that he just had to tell us everything.
I've been a Sanderson fan for ages as his books are just immense. You start reading and at no point do you think "get on with it", its just good solid action/interest/plot right the way through, no filler.
Ages, huh? His first novel was published 6 years ago. Now, while I have become a huge BWS fan, and have read all his books, I find myself wanting more information about the worlds he creates. I understand why he was writing small, but I am looking forward to his first Epic, and writing Wot will no doubt only make him better.
The Verin debate: I wonder if we aren't putting more stock into her reveal than we should? Sure, it was incredibly heroic, but since the BA hunters already had a start, Verin's details simply catalyzed the process. One argument I can certainly understand is that it pretty much destroyed the BA hunter plotline. All those pages of scheming and meeting in the shadows for nothing. Thinking about it a minute, it also shows that oaths, even taken on the oath rod, mean nothing if the person doesn't truly feel that way. Verin was never really Black Ajah, no matter what oaths she swore. This should further the argument that the 3 Oaths are nothing but an initiation rite for a group that is still way too self-righteous for its own good.
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RJ's usual style was to fill out all of his books with useless description and make the read as long as protracted as possible, pretty sure that was to sell more books rather than for any other reason - but saying that the story line behind that was great and if you learned to skip paragraphs filled with useless description you could get a pretty good read.
Really? You honestly think RJ and Tor couldn't have made as much, if not more, money by closing this series and writing outriggers? Even a whole new series would have made huge money, just because the author of the WoT wrote them. No, if anything this extended series has had a negative affect on revenue (just look at the number of people who stopped reading the series after book 5). No, this wasn't about money, it was about an author who loved the story so much that he just had to tell us everything.
I've been a Sanderson fan for ages as his books are just immense. You start reading and at no point do you think "get on with it", its just good solid action/interest/plot right the way through, no filler.
Ages, huh? His first novel was published 6 years ago. Now, while I have become a huge BWS fan, and have read all his books, I find myself wanting more information about the worlds he creates. I understand why he was writing small, but I am looking forward to his first Epic, and writing Wot will no doubt only make him better.
The Verin debate: I wonder if we aren't putting more stock into her reveal than we should? Sure, it was incredibly heroic, but since the BA hunters already had a start, Verin's details simply catalyzed the process. One argument I can certainly understand is that it pretty much destroyed the BA hunter plotline. All those pages of scheming and meeting in the shadows for nothing. Thinking about it a minute, it also shows that oaths, even taken on the oath rod, mean nothing if the person doesn't truly feel that way. Verin was never really Black Ajah, no matter what oaths she swore. This should further the argument that the 3 Oaths are nothing but an initiation rite for a group that is still way too self-righteous for its own good.
I also feel that Jordan's endless pages of description had nothing to do with money. I think he just couldn't stop writing--a lot like Stephen King's novels just keep going endlessly. I don't know that the continual lengthening of the series has hurt it TOO bad. I do think that a tad more money would have been made had the series been shorter, followed by outrigger novels, but oh well.
As for the effect of WoT on Brandon, it had a very obvious influence (in my opinion) on Way of Kings. In a good way.
I saw that too with the BA Hunter story line, as it just kind of ended and made all the pages of debate moot. There were several areas of TGS where I felt the plot threads were delicately pulled on track, and others were yanked to get them going again. Verin's was a yanked one (in my opinion).
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I, for one, was finally relived to have a character who wasn't stupid, but actually as competent as they should be. As others have said, it was nice to finally have someone rat out the DO. Convenient? I suppose so. Verin meant it to be effective, after all.
And that's my prime objection to Bookstore Guys objection. It would need plot induced stupidity to make it plausible. Haven't we had enough of that already?
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No one needed to rat out the DO. They are doing a poor enough job without a double-agent undermining them. Watching the bad guys conspire makes me feel like im taking crazy pills.
How does my objection to the manner of the reveal mean that it would need plot stupidity to have been different? Having info become available to the main characters outing Verin as BA earlier, thus putting her in more danger from the heroes while the forces of evil get suspicious of her info gathering and put her in danger from them. This is the life of a true double-agent--the constant danger and paranoia. Then, not only would the reveal of her double-agent-ness been stronger for the heroes, but it would have made her character more epic.
but hey, it's over and done with, so this debate is actually pretty pointless. the only thing that matter about Verin now is the note she left Mat. If it has info on the Tower of Ghenji, I will scream "convenience/coincidence" again, not to mention B.S. (not Brandon Sanderson, the other B.S. acronym).
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you know this site will censor you, steve, you just say shirt instead of sh**
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If it has info on the Tower of Ghenji, I will scream "convenience/coincidence" again, not to mention B.S. (not Brandon Sanderson, the other B.S. acronym).
Yeah, that would be way too implausible. There hasn't been even the slightest hint that Verin knew anything at all about Moiraine and the ToG. Moiraine's letter to Thom is the only thing in the entire series that ever said anything about that connection, and Verin just randomly popping out with it would require some pretty incredible explanation to make any sense.
I'm guessing it's something about the Horn of Valere. She knows Mat blew it, she knows he needs to find it again so he can blow it for the Last Battle, and I'm pretty sure she knows where it is. Making sure the Hornsounder can get his Horn seems like the kind of thing she'd do as part of a long planned betrayal of the Dark One.
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Yeah, I imagine you are right about the Horn. Mat's just gonna get tied to the Horn anyway, so he may as well get cozy with the current residents.
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I think Mat is too strong of Taavern (or whatchamaspellit) to be tied to the horn
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Summary:
1) I wasn't surprised by Verin being BA. I wish she would have had a big powerful reveal earlier and been in danger from the main characters.
2) I was surprised that she was a double-agent, but being so close to the focal reveal to Egwene that she was BA weakened the double-agent reveal and made it less important than it should have been.
3) Hindsight is 20-20. People can look back and say that one theory was perfect (even though there were dozen of theories that were simultaneously proven false). We could have had a dozen final outcomes that fit the small bits and hints that were given.
4) The timing of the reveals were rushed and coincidental/overly convenient. It is borderline Deus Ex Machina.
5) I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Verin turned out to be good. It helps further guarantee that the Light will win. It's like the Aes Sedai said, "What does it matter, we are going to win anyway right?"
6) This didn't ruin the book for me. While I'm not a fan of the series, this book was enjoyable overall (it wasn't TGH by any means, but still good).
I think we've beaten this dead horse enough. Like I said, I don't expect any fan of the series to agree with me.
I agree with you, that we got an overload of plot twists at that point.
I think if it had gone over more like Snape's series of reveals in Harry Potter, it would have been much better. I mean, we got a few books of well-spaced build-up and revelation.
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Snape fizzled horribly though... Sigh.
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Well I do agree that Brandon is doing a great job on the books.
I just don't think Verin's reveal was a curall, it did help get rid of the BA out of the Tower but they are still alive and out there. There is still a Forsaken, Messanna in the Tower along with the Four Seachan assassins. At any rate they had found a way to confirm who was a BA with the Oath Rod so Egwene would have done the Re-swearing without Verin's big reveal. I am also certain that Verin's reveal was in RJ's notes and it was just a way to wrap up all the Verin plot threads. I don't know how this scene would have happened had it just been RJ but I liked it anyways.
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Thanks, Kazman, I musta missed that somewhere.
People are not supposed to be recommending racy stuff on this thread! Problem is, what's mild for one is way over-the-top for another. One or two scenes of mostly-off-camera sex, and quite a bit of action-related violence, is O.K. by me, but many would consider what I tolerate intolerable. Torture scenes are sometimes important, but more often these days they are indulgent/gratuitous/kinky. That's why I started this thread, to help me sift through the disgusting and get to really good fantasy and sci fi without wading through what I consider distasteful content myself. :)
How'd that post get here? I think you meant to post in this thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7038.new#new).
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Ages, huh? His first novel was published 6 years ago. Now, while I have become a huge BWS fan, and have read all his books, I find myself wanting more information about the worlds he creates. I understand why he was writing small, but I am looking forward to his first Epic, and writing Wot will no doubt only make him better.
6 years is a long time to say i can't really say i've been reading "grown up" novels for more than 10 years. :) And nooooo, please Brandon, don't learn from Jordan too much and start writing "Epic" books ("Epic" from the above comment i'm reading as long, slow, overly descriptive and trying to be clever reads with plot used as a tool to peice the description together rather than the focus of the book). Your books are ace and shouldn't change a bit.
Also, you should write more on Warbreaker universe, magic from colours is ace.
You honestly think RJ and Tor couldn't have made as much, if not more, money by closing this series and writing outriggers?
Yes - After reading WoT the first time i wouldn't have bought any more of Jordans books on other series/same world. If you say "I'm going to write a 10 book series" then do it in 10 books. Not wait until 1000's have bought 7-8 of them and then think "Oh, i'm getting a good amount of cash from this, i'll keep going". RJ could have easily fit the plot that has/will happened in 10 books, heck, he could have done it in 6-7 really juicy fantastic books instead of drawing it ever outward.
As Brandon has shown by him writing just one of the books and it being action packed and containing as much plot as the last 5 books combined.
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Ages, huh? His first novel was published 6 years ago. Now, while I have become a huge BWS fan, and have read all his books, I find myself wanting more information about the worlds he creates. I understand why he was writing small, but I am looking forward to his first Epic, and writing Wot will no doubt only make him better.
6 years is a long time to say i can't really say i've been reading "grown up" novels for more than 10 years. :) And nooooo, please Brandon, don't learn from Jordan too much and start writing "Epic" books ("Epic" from the above comment i'm reading as long, slow, overly descriptive and trying to be clever reads with plot used as a tool to peice the description together rather than the focus of the book). Your books are ace and shouldn't change a bit.
Also, you should write more on Warbreaker universe, magic from colours is ace.
You honestly think RJ and Tor couldn't have made as much, if not more, money by closing this series and writing outriggers?
Yes - After reading WoT the first time i wouldn't have bought any more of Jordans books on other series/same world. If you say "I'm going to write a 10 book series" then do it in 10 books. Not wait until 1000's have bought 7-8 of them and then think "Oh, i'm getting a good amount of cash from this, i'll keep going". RJ could have easily fit the plot that has/will happened in 10 books, heck, he could have done it in 6-7 really juicy fantastic books instead of drawing it ever outward.
As Brandon has shown by him writing just one of the books and it being action packed and containing as much plot as the last 5 books combined.
Well Brandon has gone on record saying he's planning a 10 book epic called "Way of Kings"
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Lord of the Rings is "Epic" and isn't near as long as WoT. Not too mention you have no understanding of how the market works, or who RJ was as a person (money isn't important on your deathbed and he STILL kept writing). If WoT was shorter he wouldn't have lost a large percentage of his fan base... and he did i.e. my father after crown of swords.
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Thanks, Kazman, I musta missed that somewhere.
People are not supposed to be recommending racy stuff on this thread! Problem is, what's mild for one is way over-the-top for another. One or two scenes of mostly-off-camera sex, and quite a bit of action-related violence, is O.K. by me, but many would consider what I tolerate intolerable. Torture scenes are sometimes important, but more often these days they are indulgent/gratuitous/kinky. That's why I started this thread, to help me sift through the disgusting and get to really good fantasy and sci fi without wading through what I consider distasteful content myself. :)
How'd that post get here? I think you meant to post in this thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7038.new#new).
Oh, just wait till YOU'RE old! ...er
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Lord of the Rings is "Epic" and isn't near as long as WoT. Not too mention you have no understanding of how the market works, or who RJ was as a person (money isn't important on your deathbed and he STILL kept writing). If WoT was shorter he wouldn't have lost a large percentage of his fan base... and he did i.e. my father after crown of swords.
Yes LotR is short but it seems to be a continuing work under Tolkien's Son. That doesn't change the fact that Brandon is planing a 10 book epic himself. It's hard to judge if RJ was milking the series or merely continuing to add content to a story he felt it needed. He may have lost fans but evidently not enough since his books after Crown of Swords consistently got New York Times best sellers. I thought books 1-7 were great and even enjoyed 8&9 greatly, the only one I consider weak was CoT. I don't think this series could ever have been a trilogy or even a six book series, this struggle was just too big for that small amount of books.
Tolkien's characters main plight was walking to a Volcano, while the rest of the cast ran around keeping Suaron's attention away from the ring bearer. Rather a simple plot when compared to WoT, or even Brandon''s work for that matter.
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Doesn't change the fact that he misunderstands epic for meaning long
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Back to the topic...
Excellent work, Mr. Brandon!
I can't find the words. The choice not to rush and squeeze the series ending into 1 volume seems to work great. You did wonderful job with the characters, and the plot is vivid and spectacular.
I couldn't help myself thinking 'whose words am I reading at the moment', sometimes, but it's a thing that just can't be helped.
With your fresh style and fresh look at the series you have probably given it a big boost : )
If RJ was to write it, i suspect he might have chosen different chunks of the plot to fit into this book, leaving some events for later (yes, I'm aware that he intended to finish it quickly, in 1 volume, but... I don't believe it would happen). This is not to say that I have anything against your choices. Just a thought.
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Doesn't change the fact that he misunderstands epic for meaning long
The dictionary disagrees with you:
Noun:
1 A long narrative poem telling of a hero's deeds
Adjective:
1 Very imposing or impressive; surpassing the ordinary (especially in size or scale)
2 Constituting or having to do with or suggestive of a literary epic
It seems to me that Epic does indeed contain the meaning of being long or at least large. It never mattered how long it was going to be, Jordan always tried to write it as long as it needed to be, even Sanderson agrees with that in his blogs.
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And what constitutes "Long".... also epic poems haven't been common for centuries. Now we write novels, so under your definition nothing in the fantasy genre is epic.
P.S.Beowolf is barely longer than a novella.
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Does not "epic" refer more to scope than length these days? There are plenty of book series that are long, but so limited in scope that no one would classify them as epic, like C.S. Lewis's books. There are better examples, I'm sure. LotR is considered epic because of the wonderfully detailed (though emotionally restrained) world Mr. Tolkien created. RJ took the genre of high fantasy, as he liked to call it, to sometimes ridiculous proportions. If I need a website to recall who in the world I am reading about and what he/she has done in book 3-6, the character list has gotten way out of control. But I'm still reading.
A novella-length poem is epic, to my way of thinking, just because it's amazing to sustain story and poetic structure for more than a few pages. Prose is different.
I agree with Whitefire: Brandon is striking a good balance between stopping to smell roses and getting on with the story. I think even better than Knife of Dreams, which felt rushed to me. There was just that one Psych. 101 moment of "role-playing" in TGS that made me cringe a bit (like when I read the words "deal with it" or "relationship" in fantasy: modernisms, I think), but other than that, the story flowed nicely for me.
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If I need a website to recall who in the world I am reading about and what he/she has done in book 3-6, the character list has gotten way out of control.
It really has not. No one says that the character lists of the Norse sagas have gotten out of control even though everyone is called the same thing. It is good to have a story with more than a core cast of ten characters.
Agree with you on the modernisms, though. The "backstories" were one of those, a word I think was invented by American popular culture (ie Hollywood) in the seventies. Really jarring. I hope for the next book that they take the time for an even more extensive editing process. There were several continuity errors and "sloppy" language which took away some of the enjoyment. Only some, but those things could have been avoided if Sanderson had been given more time to study the series and benifited from a more thorough editing phase.
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More through editing? Are you kidding me? Harriet, Maria, Brandon, and countless more that I can't remember were editing that book, they took several months to do so. Without the original Author we unfortunatly come to conflicts of interpreting the notes, it seems there were a few points where Maria saw the notes one way and Brandon another.
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I am indeed not kidding you. The book would have benefited immensely from another three months of editing. Additionally, Sanderson should really have been allowed the time to research the series more. I am very pleased with his performance, I think the book was very good. Yet I also think that if he had been allowed more than a mere three months to re-read, he would have done an even better job. That is, I believe, also the reason that Sanderson now is saying that book 13 might be pushed back to March 2011. This, I would applaud.
You should turn down the hyperbole, a little. The "countless others" that you cannot remember is Alan Romanchuk, the third of three (3) editors who worked on the book. I think they did a fine job, but with a few more months it would have been better. There are several inconsistencies and continuity errors which have nothing to do with "interpretation of the notes". They are annoying, and take something away from the enjoyment of the book. Not a lot of it, but some. These errors are present through one thing only; a lack of time. The editorial process was really rather short.
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To treat a hypothesis as fact or to believe it as fact.... which is seems you do... with little evidence other than your fragile "belief", while common to all of man, is foolish.
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That must have sounded very eloquent in your head. I do not see any relevance or coherence in that little proclamation, though.
Anyone familiar with literature will see that this book would have been better if its author had been allowed more time to research the background material, and the editors more time to edit it - instead of rushing it to print the way they did.
Also, my "evidence", is not based on "fragile belief" (very poetic), but is seen in the sheer amount of spelling errors, continuity errors - for Christ's sakes, there are blatant continuity errors from the end of Book 11, which they really should have found - and careless language. Anyone but a blind man would recognise that this novel would have been better if Sanderson had been given more time.
Edit: I should comment again, because some of you seem to construe these posts as very harsh criticism and personal attacks on their favourite author. They are neither. I was very pleased with the book, but it did need more editing.
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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you (and my personality is blunt not flowery or poetic), what I am saying is that we don't no what additional time would accomplish. All books have problems in editing, time doesn't fix it and if used improperly leaves the same amount or more. Not too mention that fans are impatient and the longer they push it out the more likely they are to lose their reader base. Still it is an unknown by all acounts, the fact of it's likliehood is immaterial b/c it didn't happen.
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I won't argue the spelling errors, there are certainly a number of those, but the only continuity error I recall (which group Sulin is with) has been explicitly stated as not an error. I'm guessing she will be shown taking an Asha'man-aided trip from Perrin to Rand in ToM, and we already know that Rand's timeline has advanced a lot more than Perrin's in TGS.
So, could you list the continuity errors you're complaining about?
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I honestly don't even remember Sulin ever going with Perrin except at Dumai Wells. I thought Bain, Chaid and Gaul were the primary Aiel with Perrin. Besides which Perrin DOES have two Ashaman with him, sure their too tired to send an entire army anywhere but they can open a Gateway for one person. Not to mention the timeline isn't perfectly synced some events taking place are not at the same time.
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I could be persuaded to list a few of them, yes.
- It is stated several times over the course of CoT and KoD that Bryne has organised the siege of Tar Valon in a way completely different from the way it is depicted in TGS. The RAS army are holding the bridge towns on the west and east sides of the river. The rest of the army is held in reserve near the bridge towns, ready to rush in to fortify the garrisons holding the bridges, in case of a sally from Tar Valon. The Aes Sedai camp is far removed from the many camps of the soldiers. The reason Siuan was sleeping in Bryne's tent was not primarily that she liked being near him, but because it would take too long to return to the AS camp after finishing her chores. Now, when TGS opens, the bulk of the army has magically transported itself so that it surrounds the AS camp.
This has implications when, in TGS, Bryne and Siuan incongruously quickly manage to get one hundred soldiers across the river to free Egwene, when starting off from the camp which (in Sanderson's version) is actually pretty far from the river. It is obvious that RJ intended them to leave from a camp in near proximity to one of the bridge towns, which is where the army actually is supposed to be. Unfortunately, neither Sanderson nor one of the editors managed to see this. This is a particularly bad miss, as no research or interpretation of the notes is really needed.
- Another bad miss is seen when Dorlan, the village Gawyn is staying in, inexplicably changes sides from the east side of the river to the west. Recall, the AS are encamped on the west bank of the river. Sanderson, however, describes Dorlan to be a “two day ride” from the Aes Sedai, which is clearly erroneous, as Dorlan is not even on the same side as the AS. It would require a very large boat to get Gawyn’s horse across the river, but no mention of this is made at all. He has just ridden the distance, apparently. It is clear that RJ intended Gawyn to cross the river by boat from the tiny village downriver from Dorlan – which he knew was where Tarna and Katerine had gone to get back to Tar Valon. He would have to abandon his horse to do that, though, and buy another one once on the other side. Sanderson and his assistants have missed this, unfortunately.
- At the end of KoD, Perrin has decided to move away from Malden within the hour. He has already started sending the refugees away ahead of him. When TGS opens, he seems never to have sent the refugees anywhere, and has decided to wait several days to leave. No explanation is given for his change of mind.
- The access key ter’angreal shrinks by half, approximately, from at least two feet to about one. This apparently to facilitate being carried around by Rand like some sort of pistol. Also, it glows red (Rand is apparently turning into a sith) when Rand channels through it. That has never happened before, and the glow should, as far as I can remember, only be visible to channelers. A bit sketchy on this one though, it might be the sheer cheese factor of the incident, with leaves blowing around his feet, trees bending, and the incongruous depiction of the balefire that threw me off the scene. I am sure I will like it more on a subsequent re-read.
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Perrin gives the command for them to move in KoD but you never SEE them do so. And the RAS army has always surrounded the AS camp though i believe the camp followers seperated the two. And isn't Dorlan a bridge town listed when Egwene returns to the tower with Verin and Mat ect. so isn't it impossible to have a siege without capturing the city?
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Bryne's army has never surrounded the RAS camp. It has, as I stated, been positioned in camps between the occupied bridge towns, a good distance from the AS.
Dorlan is not a bridge town. It is located a good way east of Tar Valon, and is cut off from the city by 25 000 of Bryne's soldiers. The town Egwene et al pass through is called Darein, and lies on the west bank of Tar Valon. Why the heck would they cross over to the east bank of the river when coming from Almoth Plain?
Perrin does more than give the command (actually, it is Faile who does). Messengers are seen to be moving away with the instructions that people are to begin moving north immediately. The wheels have started turning. At this point, Perrin would have had to issue a new order to reverse this. There is no mention of Perrin having countermanded his orders, or any insight as to his rationale. It is an oversight of Team Jordan's, really.
I do not think Sanderson should be blamed for these things, he has certainly done heroically with the time given. But he should have been given more, and Team Jordan should have taken more time perfecting things. If the book had been released in February, nothing would have changed sales-wise.
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I'm forwarding this to Maria.
Keep in mind that the previous volumes also had continuity errors and inconsistencies, many of which (but not all) were fixed in later printings. There's a large list over at Encyclopaedia WoT.
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Thank you, Peter. It is good to know these things will be brought to her attention.
I am aware of many of the errors in previous books. I am just glad they - many of them, at least - are being corrected, and I hope that will be the case for this book, as well.
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Damn is a year really long enough for me to fuddle that much stuff? I've read the series several times but you begin to know it too well and just lose interest in the older books.... if this makes sense to any of you or perhaps i'm less a nerd than i thought.
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Gentlefolk...
New to the forums, but I've a growing account of respect for Brandon's works on many levels. I started to pick up a few books on hearing that he had been given the dual-edged sword (honor and cross) of picking up from RJ on the WoT series...I couldn't imagine having to take something on of this scope, with all the baggage of loose threads and building/waivering feelings of expectations of such a fan base. His own works I found very well written...pacing, endings (though I felt Mistborn was a bit too Weiss and Hickman for my taste...hint, hint...tragic endings I feel are too easy/trite/unimaginative...PLEASE don't let them become a hallmark!) That all said, continuing, in general he writes a solid novel on all fronts. The only word I can really use that seems to fit is he's a finisher...great ideas, well executed, tightly written...what more can a fan want. He doesn't over do it, has the creativity to cast a good yarn, but does it in a complete, but reasonable scope of writing. In other words...he's not JUST a fantastic write...he is (unbelievably given the good, albeit limited record to date), IMHO...the absolute perfect writer to have been granted this responsibility.
Mr. Sanderson...I read TGS...any of the critics that nit pick are ignoring or don't appreciate the unbelievably immense scope of things you had to manage in taking this task on. I don't know first hand, but having read the prior novels...to me at least...I feared it would be impossible. Guess what? You hit it out of the park! Well done. You didn't just do a fair job of managing the continuation of the series, you channeled Mr. Rigney. However his widow and yourself found each other for this handoff, I have to believe a higher power was involved...because you handled it beautifully. Congratulations on a very fine piece of work...I truly look forward to reading your next two closing novels, as well as your future personal endeavors. Thank you for doing such justice to the legacy of this series, and for an engrossing read at the same time.
Best Regards,
vtaltos
(Yes, I'm a Brust fan too, :)...)
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If I need a website to recall who in the world I am reading about and what he/she has done in book 3-6, the character list has gotten way out of control.
It really has not.
Has so! Bookstore Guy agrees, so case closed. Am I not correct? (BSG wisely avoids further controversy.)
O.K., I guess I'll try to grow up a bit. Someone who can catalog that many continuity-related details off the top of his head is not the same kind of human as most of us. Hats off to you, Cynewulf! Vtaltos is correct, we are gentlefolk. Except for Kaz, of course. :o
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Darn right i'm not!!! The problem is i forget things in the long term and my plans take forever to get rolling so when Chaos throws a wrench in things everything goes south... fast. Thank that evil SoB for i am an even worst master! Unless you join my church then things are cool.
Best scene in the book = Dragonmount
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Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?". Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.
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If I need a website to recall who in the world I am reading about and what he/she has done in book 3-6, the character list has gotten way out of control.
It really has not.
Has so! Bookstore Guy agrees, so case closed. Am I not correct? (BSG wisely avoids further controversy.)
O.K., I guess I'll try to grow up a bit. Someone who can catalog that many continuity-related details off the top of his head is not the same kind of human as most of us. Hats off to you, Cynewulf! Vtaltos is correct, we are gentlefolk. Except for Kaz, of course. :o
Oddly, the size of the cast doesn't bother me in WoT. I don't get bothered by the number of characters, but by how they are handled. There are instances in WoT where characters are handled well, and others where they are terrible. I read Erikson, where the cast is much larger than WoT. For me personally, it hasn't been that difficult to remember what characters in WoT have been doing for several books, because the answer is pretty easy...not much, unless you consider brooding and whining (come on, you know I was gonna throw that in).
As far as editing goes, sure some extra time might have solved a few issues, but that stuff can be fixed later. I personally think that some of the scenes in TGS could have been cut/shortened. It was a bit like watching the deleted scenes of a dvd included with the feature film. A lot of redundancy. But hey, whatever. The book is out. And postponing until February would have impacted sales negatively--not as much as it would have for most other series, but negatively just the same.
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Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?". Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.
That was easily one of my favorites, too.
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Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?". Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.
It's a good scene. I'm pretty sure Moridin is lying his teeth out during the whole thing, though.
It seems pretty transparent to me that he deliberately brought Rand there to tell him that the Forsaken can be reborn, but balefire will take them out permanently. All part of the DO's master plan, along with giving him access to the True Power.
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Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?". Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.
It's a good scene. I'm pretty sure Moridin is lying his teeth out during the whole thing, though.
It seems pretty transparent to me that he deliberately brought Rand there to tell him that the Forsaken can be reborn, but balefire will take them out permanently. All part of the DO's master plan, along with giving him access to the True Power.
That very well could be true. The vibe I got though was Moridin was lounging and was quite annoyed at Rands "intrusion". Now you really can't tell due to the fact that we can not hear or see the conversation take place but thats just the way it played out in my head.
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That very well could be true. The vibe I got though was Moridin was lounging and was quite annoyed at Rands "intrusion". Now you really can't tell due to the fact that we can not hear or see the conversation take place but thats just the way it played out in my head.
I got the exact same vibe as madness. It seemed like Moridin was genuinely annoyed at Rand's intrusion.
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Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?". Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.
It's a good scene. I'm pretty sure Moridin is lying his teeth out during the whole thing, though.
It seems pretty transparent to me that he deliberately brought Rand there to tell him that the Forsaken can be reborn, but balefire will take them out permanently. All part of the DO's master plan, along with giving him access to the True Power.
That very well could be true. The vibe I got though was Moridin was lounging and was quite annoyed at Rands "intrusion". Now you really can't tell due to the fact that we can not hear or see the conversation take place but thats just the way it played out in my head.
Maybe. Or maybe Rand intruded and Ishy decided that that was as good a time as any to plant some much needed seeds.
Think about some of the side effects of this:
(1) Rand balefired Graendel, along with the rest of her fortress. Somehow I suspect this is a huge win for the DO.
(2) Rand balefired Semirhage and Elza, using the TP as the source.
In general, Rand is more likely to use balefire now due to this little "casual" scene with Ishy.
We know the DO needs something... special to win completely. The DO's goals have remained murky throughout the entire saga. (This was especially brought up by Verin, and I think that this is an important reminder that we don't know everything.) Moridin has been playing Rand from the very beginning, and his goals have never once been obvious. I can't help but think, given the above points, that this little scene was crucial, not casual.
Remember the early scenes where Moridin was trying to get Rand to turn? Do you seriously think the DO would consider that a realistic goal, given the necessarily resilient nature of the Dragon Reborn's soul? Would the pattern ever turn out a Dragon Reborn who would turn simply because it was offered out of the blue? No, those early scenes were designed to plant ideas in Rand's head, to drive a wedge between him and Aes Sedai, to make him less trusting and more ashamed of who he was. And I think Moridin used them masterfully. Now that the book is approaching end-game, it is time to move the pieces into the most advantageous place, and a depending on what it takes to actually win, different moves may be needed. A casual encounter? With so much at stake? With such a devastating result? I think not.
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I agree with happy.
We've been told that balefire can destroy the Pattern, if used too much, right?
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Isn't that EXACTLY what the Dark One is trying to do?
Just a thought.
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I agree with happy.
We've been told that balefire can destroy the Pattern, if used too much, right?
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Isn't that EXACTLY what the Dark One is trying to do?
Just a thought.
I agree I think that's exactly what the DO wants, for both sides to just start using Balefire willy nilly on everything until the whole pattern falls apart and Oblivion is all that remains.
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All good points happy. I don't see Ishy passing up any opportunity to manipulate Rand.
Balefire can destroy the pattern but rampant use of balefire isn't what the DO or Ishy want from Rand, imo. During the time of Lews Therin both sides of the conflict agreed not to use balefire. However, they both definately wanted Rand to use the TP. Also, upon using the TP he killed two women. Something he vowed never to do again. I think their whole goal is to make Rand lose his humanity. Pretty much the reverse of what Cadsuane was trying to do. Maybe, the DO is just trying to hedge his bets. That even if he loses to the Dragon, AGAIN, he'll be some crazy monster that will, AGAIN, destroy the world.
Ishy has stated before that Dragon has fought on the side of the DO but the DO still lost the final battle. My question is what would the final piece, for a DO victory, have to be if it isn't the Dragon? Even the Karaethon prophecy states that only the Dragon's blood need be spilled at Shayol Ghul and there is no mention as to what side he will fight on.
His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,
washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.
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"The Land is One with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the Land." If Rand becomes destructive and tainted with the DO's power, so does the pattern itself.
This, I feel, is part of the answer. People see a darkness around Rand; probably the DO's touch. Through Rand, the DO can touch an enormous amount of the pattern.
But I won't speculate much further. I believe that the DO simply wishes to destroy everything. I suspect that he cannot do it directly without very special circumstances, and that we don't understand exactly what is needed. Beyond that---who knows?
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I don't think that balefire is how the DO wants things to go down. As mentioned previous, both sides back in the day agreed to not use balefire, i'm sure if that's what the DO wanted, the shadow wouldn't have agreed.
Also, if that's what the DO wanted, there would be no reason for the shadow to plan and lie low for so long, instead he would have all the forsaken running around balefiring everything earlier on, before others like rand and egwene became powerful enough to stand against them.
I honestly think the DO doesnt want the pattern to be like *POOF!* and be gone, what I think he wants is to slowly waste and deteriorate it away, which is part of what turning rand evil will do to the land.
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I think the DO wants to remake it but first needs to destroy the original. He certainly doesn't seem to mind Balefire being used. Also there was no unififed or official agreement, both sides just stopped using it because the saw the consequences of using it, I don't think the DO told anyone to stop using it.
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I think the DO wants to remake it but first needs to destroy the original. He certainly doesn't seem to mind Balefire being used. Also there was no unififed or official agreement, both sides just stopped using it because the saw the consequences of using it, I don't think the DO told anyone to stop using it.
While you are correct in saying there was no official agreement the fact remains both sides stopped. They realized the consequences and just stopped using it. However, as Eerongal pointed out if the DO wanted balefire to be used the shadow would simply use it. So, if it were any advantage to the DO to have things balefired out of existence he would command his followers to balefire it out of existence. Point being, the shadow stopped using balefire and they really have no will of their own, as a whole, other than the will of the DO. So, that leads me to believe that the DO was just fine with no balefire being thrown around all willy-nilly.
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Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake. Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world. Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent. If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this. Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person. He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.
The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use. I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.
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Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake. Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world. Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent. If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this. Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person. He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.
The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use. I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Some of the most powerful people ever, the Forsaken, do whatever he tells them. If he told them to balefire the world into oblivion they most definately would obey. As would any Forsaken underlings. The DO rules out of fear as do the Forsaken over their cronies. If anyone disobeys they are simply killed off. That goes all the way down the chain of command on the side of the shadow. I don't see any type of revolt taking place. Furthermore, the Darkfriends that matter in this discussion are Aes Sedai Black Ajah and any rogue Ashaman that have crossed over. All of the Black Ajah are fully aware of what the DO represents. It's not just some shmuck darkfriends that would come into play in this theory only the channelers.
So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.
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So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.
I agree with this observation. It seems like I remember reading in one of the PoVs of the Forsaken that they weren't too keen on balefire being used. I could be totally off base, but it seems like I remember that from my audio book "read" through. If the DO wanted balefire to nuke stuff, the Forsaken would be using it a lot more than they currently are.
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Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake. Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world. Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent. If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this. Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person. He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.
The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use. I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Some of the most powerful people ever, the Forsaken, do whatever he tells them. If he told them to balefire the world into oblivion they most definately would obey. As would any Forsaken underlings. The DO rules out of fear as do the Forsaken over their cronies. If anyone disobeys they are simply killed off. That goes all the way down the chain of command on the side of the shadow. I don't see any type of revolt taking place. Furthermore, the Darkfriends that matter in this discussion are Aes Sedai Black Ajah and any rogue Ashaman that have crossed over. All of the Black Ajah are fully aware of what the DO represents. It's not just some shmuck darkfriends that would come into play in this theory only the channelers.
So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.
Yeah, i'm pretty sure if the DO told the forsaken "Balefire your butts off or die" it would happen....
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Yeah, i'm pretty sure if the DO told the forsaken "Balefire your butts off or die" it would happen....
This image made me giggle a bit.
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Even the Forsaken (excepting Ishamael) are in it for the immortality and power. Their background information and POV scenes make it quite clear that they expect the DO to drastically change the world and make them the top rulers of the new world. They do not expect him to literally destroy the world, them included. There are also a number of Black Ajah POV scenes that clearly reveal the motives of one or more BA members to be a desire for personal power and advantage. Again, they expect to be rewarded for their service. I do not recall any evidence anywhere in the entire series of a servant of the Dark One other than Ishamael believing that the DO will kill that person as collateral damage in the event of his victory, that the DO won't care about this and will not resurrect that person, that this might happen within that person's lifetime, and that this is ok.
Just for one example off the top of my head, read what Moghedian thinks when she's brought out of the vacuole. She's panicked that the DO might have already won and she'd be forced to work up from the bottom in a world where the other Forsaken already rule everything. If she thought the DO's victory would mean the actual end of the world, as excessive balefire might cause, such a worry would never have arisen.
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Well Lanfear has already spoke treasons words against the DO so I am not wholly certain that some of them might be upset that they will blink out of existence should the DO win. I think some of them REALLY believe that they will live in a world they get to rule under the DO. They seem to think that the world will be one giant Morador for them to parcel up.
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We also have been told that the Dark One wants to destroy the Wheel and rebuild it to suit his desires. I feel that if the Wheel is destroyed, the Pattern has to go along with it. The Wheel weaves the Pattern, after all. No Pattern = no world. I think the Dark One is wanting to hit the Cosmic Reset Button, thus the lives of his followers in the current incarnation of Existence is trivial. And I think the only person that has stopped to think about it all the way or been told the intention is Moridin. It's what he's been saying all along, that everyone is just a pawn to the Dark One, and he is Nae'blis, after all. I'd figure he'd have a bit more insight into it all.
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Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake. Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world. Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent. If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this. Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person. He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.
The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use. I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Some of the most powerful people ever, the Forsaken, do whatever he tells them. If he told them to balefire the world into oblivion they most definately would obey. As would any Forsaken underlings. The DO rules out of fear as do the Forsaken over their cronies. If anyone disobeys they are simply killed off. That goes all the way down the chain of command on the side of the shadow. I don't see any type of revolt taking place. Furthermore, the Darkfriends that matter in this discussion are Aes Sedai Black Ajah and any rogue Ashaman that have crossed over. All of the Black Ajah are fully aware of what the DO represents. It's not just some shmuck darkfriends that would come into play in this theory only the channelers.
So, I still believe that if the DO intended the world be ended by excessive balefire use then that would have, at the very least, already have been attempted.
A lot of other people have answered this, but I would like to address this carefully and with full context.
Firstly, the Forsaken do *not* do whatever the DO tells them to do if they think they can get away with not doing it. Think of Lanfear. She fully intended to rebel against both the Creator and the DO, given the chance. The other forsaken aren't quite crazy enough to think that that's possible, but Mesaana, for instance, thought she could ignore the call to fight at Shadar Logoth. She got punished for it, but please note that she didn't do it. The obedience of the forsaken is not absolute.
Secondly, the Dark One does not rule strictly out of fear. As others have noted, he also rules out of greed and desire for petty revenge. Carrot and stick. Selfishness, in fact, is one of the prime motivators behind most of the Forsaken, as noted by Verin. Even in tGS, we have Moridin promising Graendel a high position of authority, and it works. There are too many other examples to count. I would say that, on balance however, that most people who serve the DO have greed for motivations. Lots of people fear the DO, and with good reason. Active service seems to come mostly from greed.
I would also note that disobedience is not strictly rewarded by death. That is false, period. Mesaana, Moghedien, and Lanfear are all examples of that.
Given these reasons, it seems perfectly logical that the DO is simply lying to the Forsaken, leading them on with promises of power and glory, until he can destroy the world entirely. Ishamael practically says as much to Rand, in fact, in their little meeting. The fact that the DO has not commanded the Forsaken to use Balefire may simply be because that would tip his hand; because he is motivating his minions with greed, they will revolt---they really will---if they truly understand what is happening, Ishamael excepted. I see no reason to doubt that.
Edit: I would like to add that it seems logical that just anybody using Balefire may not be enough for the DO to get everything he wants. It does seem logical that having Rand do it may be more devastating than, say, having Moridin go around balefiring everything. Or that it wouldn't have all the desired effects.
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Again, Happy, I agree completely.
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Notice the grammar and spelling. I think Happy got/gets A's more often than not.
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happy,
We will just have to agree to disagree on this point.
I would also note that disobedience is not strictly rewarded by death. That is false, period. Mesaana, Moghedien, and Lanfear are all examples of that.
Moghedien isn't being punished for disobedience but for failure. As for Mesaana, did that order come directly from the DO? Even if it did the punishment thereafter is so extreme that she won't be able to disobey ever again. Point being the DO rules with an iron fist. If the key to the DO's plan was to balefire the world into oblivion he would actively be forcing his minions to do just that! What would be the point of all of his scheming if just by shattering the world via balefire was the key to everything? Why manipulate the Dragon so much? Yah Rand is the strongest channeler around but Ishy/Rahvin/Demandred/Lanfear/etc... are pretty close to his strength. Are you suggesting the damage all of them combined wouldn't match what Rand could do alone? Their souls are bound to him. If he truly wanted them to shatter the pattern he would simply make them do it. Regardless if they didn't want to go along with it.
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happy,
We will just have to agree to disagree on this point.
I would also note that disobedience is not strictly rewarded by death. That is false, period. Mesaana, Moghedien, and Lanfear are all examples of that.
Moghedien isn't being punished for disobedience but for failure. As for Mesaana, did that order come directly from the DO? Even if it did the punishment thereafter is so extreme that she won't be able to disobey ever again. Point being the DO rules with an iron fist. If the key to the DO's plan was to balefire the world into oblivion he would actively be forcing his minions to do just that! What would be the point of all of his scheming if just by shattering the world via balefire was the key to everything? Why manipulate the Dragon so much? Yah Rand is the strongest channeler around but Ishy/Rahvin/Demandred/Lanfear/etc... are pretty close to his strength. Are you suggesting the damage all of them combined wouldn't match what Rand could do alone? Their souls are bound to him. If he truly wanted them to shatter the pattern he would simply make them do it. Regardless if they didn't want to go along with it.
No need to absolutely agree to disagree. Those are good points, and I'm glad you've made them. I now think that just balefire probably isn't enough to get the DO what he wants. I do think that Rand is special in that regard. Being an absurdly strong Ta'veren may be enough. He's the Dragon Reborn and one with the land. His actions and emotions get magnified to an absurd degree because of that.
I do think the DO just wants to destroy everything. You've just convinced me that random spouts of balefire from Moridin won't do it. Perhaps the destruction wouldn't be complete enough for the DO's taste? Perhaps enough would survive that the pattern would eventually rebuild itself? It's a mystery. I do suspect that a general order from the DO to balefire everything wouldn't be obeyed by most darkfriends or forsaken. Because they are mostly motivated by personal greed, I suspect they would sacrifice their current life in the hope of getting any kind of afterlife at all rather than face oblivion once they realized that that was the actual choice being offered them...
Incidentally, Mesaana's punishment was proclaimed by Shadar Hairan. As far as I can tell, that means the DO backs it up 100%.
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Maybe what the DO wants is for Rand to be using Balefire then. Afterall Rand just did burn a huge hole in the pattern by destroying the castle in tGS.
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I seem to remember Lews Therin mumbling in Rands head something like, "I promised never to do that again (use balefire)". I assumed that LT had already tried balefiring the Forsaken and it didn't work, or at least not the way he had meant it to work.
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I seem to remember Lews Therin mumbling in Rands head something like, "I promised never to do that again (use balefire)". I assumed that LT had already tried balefiring the Forsaken and it didn't work, or at least not the way he had meant it to work.
This gets into the thorny issue of whether Lews Therin's thoughts are really Lews Therin's, or Rand's thoughts that he can't bring himself to face. Because I tend towards the second option (Rand and Lews Therin are the same person at core), I think Rand's promise not to use balefire may be relevant.
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I certainly took Lews Therin's comment to mean that he had promised Casuane as Rand. Lews Therin seemed to be getting more sane and more in control as they merged. It certainly seemed that Rand was Rand at all by the end of his crisis. He seems to be more like Mat now an amalgum of all the past lives of "the Dragon". Sane technically, perhaps, but not very human. That's my take.
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Or maybe more human, the more he accepts it, the less he fights it. I wouldn't have gone that way, but this is Mr. Jordan's world, not mine, and I relish the surprises.
I wonder if this is another example of things Brandon would not have chosen to write, as I mentioned before, if he were the one choosing everything in this project. I know one other "for sure": the spanking scene. Brandon did not care for that particular plot variant, but RJ was very clear about it in his notes. Brandon just does not like Cadsuane at all, anyway, he says. That's too bad, really, because he usually does so well with strong female characters and, to me, Cadsuane is potentially one of the best. I wish I had asked Harriet if she agreed with me, but I didn't want to start a minor fight. I think Harriet might have, with a characteristic twinkle in her eye, said something like, "They are all terrible and wonderful."
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Brandon just does not like Cadsuane at all, anyway, he says. That's too bad, really, because he usually does so well with strong female characters and, to me, Cadsuane is potentially one of the best. I wish I had asked Harriet if she agreed with me, but I didn't want to start a minor fight. I think Harriet might have, with a characteristic twinkle in her eye, said something like, "They are all terrible and wonderful."
Has he really stated that he does not like Cadsuane? If so, that shows a surprising lack of professionalism. He should keep such thoughts to himself. She is one of the most important characters in the story, she is marvellously characterised, and RJ obviously cherished her, comparing her with the stern aunt we all have. I do not want to see doubts being cast on her characterisation in the final three books simply because Sanderson "does not like" her. Writing TWoT, it is Sanderson's job to like her.
And what the hell is there not to like?
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To be more precise, Brandon said, when asked who is his least favorite character to write, "Cadsuane." He said it quite a few times on tour, actually. There may have been others he mentioned, but this is the one that kind of jolted me because I have always liked her and wanted more of her sometimes, not less. Especially with Verin and Moiraine out of the picture for now. That is probably why RJ had lots of Cadsuane in his notes interacting in most/all of the pivotal scenes with Rand. He liked her as much as we do and I think Harriet does, too, though I chickened out when I had the chance to ask her directly, sitting right next to Brandon as she was.
I think Brandon is just being candid and honest, not unprofessional. It's not like he would have brought it up outside the context of tour questioning and I imagine her spanking episode has much to do with Brandon's dislike. It was a scene that would never have come out of his head, I think, and disturbed him, so she disturbed him. My guess.
I totally agree with you, Cyn. What is not to like?
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Plenty.... first of she is ungodly arrogant...but i should stop this here before i go on a rant (to be clear i don't dislike her but she frustrates me constantly) and i don't have an aunt that behaves in a fashion like Cadsuane.
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Plenty.... first of she is ungodly arrogant...
This.
Honestly, I'm right there with brandon, Cadsuane is my least favorite character of them all. She's way too epically arrogant for the position (character-wise, not her position in the story) she occupies.
I think she's intended to be a "wise, but stern" figure to guide rand, but that's not at all how she comes off to me. Moiraine did an infinitely better job of filling this role IMO.
Of course, this is all my opinion, and anyone who wants to is obviously allowed to enjoy her character. I just, in the scheme of things, do not.
Edit: to clarify a bit more, I actually liked her earlier on, when she was reserved and meticulous, but began to dislike her more and more as she became more of "Pshaw! Now you listen to granny cadsuane, you lil' whipper snapper!!"
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I wonder if Brandon's opinion of Cadsuane has something to do with the fact that he knows everything in "the notes" about her. Maybe there's something coming that makes her even more unappealing to him.
Yeah, all that pshaw stuff did get irritating, as did all the braid-pulling, gown-smoothing and arm-folding-under-breasts, but I still like her and think her exasperation was merited by Rand's behavior. Hoping things smooth out between them. I think I expect her to largely disappear, having played her most important part in Min's viewings. The laugh and cry thing. I can't remember, did he cry yet?
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Cadsuane is bloody irritating... but she's supposed to be, so I deal.
I love that Rand and Lews Therin have finally... merged more. (I guess that's the right word.) The whole concept there of being someone from the past, of being the same person, and yet not, over and over again, is just fascinating.
Also, Verin is my hero. 'Nuff said.
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I think most people who dislike Cadsuane do so for the wrong reasons. I feel that most who dislike her are young males who object to the fact that a relatively minor character fails to worship the hero of the story. For many readers, especially young ones, there often occurs a form of projection of themselves onto the protagonist. I think some feel personally offended that Cadsuane does not bow down to do Rand's wishes. And frankly, the way Rand has been behaving since Dumai's Wells, who can blame her for taking him to task.
Cadsuane has certainly been far more effective in working with Rand than Moiraine ever was. Moiraine's handling of Rand is a complete disaster. For the first four and a half books, she was constantly bungling the way she handled the Emonds Fielders. She misunderstood how to deal with Rand, and tried to force Rand into her own horribly arbitrary and erroneous interpretations of the Kareathon Cycle. If Rand had actually taken her advice, the Last Battle would already be lost. I really do not understand why so many people hold Moiraine in such high regard. She is certainly a good character and it will undoubtedly be good to have her back, but her accomplishments have for the most part been luck and have occured despite Moiraine's efforts rather than due to them. Until the episode with the Domination Band, Cadsuane was having a very good influence on Rand - and she handled him exactly right.
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I really do not understand why so many people hold Moiraine in such high regard
At least for me, it's because she actually managed to earn Rand's trust, and did so by proving to him that she deserved it and that she was trying to help him rather than control and manipulate him. When people talk about Moiraine as a highly respected and liked character that they really want back, I believe they are usually talking about Moiraine as she was between her trip to Rhuidean and her death. In that interval she dealt with Rand perfectly and with none of the undeserved arrogance that makes most Aes Sedai act like idiots.
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I think most people who dislike Cadsuane do so for the wrong reasons. I feel that most who dislike her are young males who object to the fact that a relatively minor character fails to worship the hero of the story. For many readers, especially young ones, there often occurs a form of projection of themselves onto the protagonist. I think some feel personally offended that Cadsuane does not bow down to do Rand's wishes. And frankly, the way Rand has been behaving since Dumai's Wells, who can blame her for taking him to task.
That's a rather dangerous over generalization, there, chief, that could start flames, i'd be careful. (note: i don't care, just sayin')
Also: Just about every single woman I know (IRL) who reads wheel of time hate Cadsuane far more than even I do, so from my personal wealth of data on the situation, it's also quite wrong. Obviously, everyone allowed to like who they like, but the majority of people I know do NOT like her.
I really do not understand why so many people hold Moiraine in such high regard
At least for me, it's because she actually managed to earn Rand's trust, and did so by proving to him that she deserved it and that she was trying to help him rather than control and manipulate him. When people talk about Moiraine as a highly respected and liked character that they really want back, I believe they are usually talking about Moiraine as she was between her trip to Rhuidean and her death. In that interval she dealt with Rand perfectly and with none of the undeserved arrogance that makes most Aes Sedai act like idiots.
^this sums my feelings up exactly^
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Yeah... I don't think being young, single, male or female really has anything to do with whether or not one likes Cadsuane.
I understand her perspective, but that doesn't make her less annoying. But I honestly think it's a mark of great writing that I can be really truly irritated by a fictional character.
And I agree with Douglas that Moiraine managed to gain Rand's trust. Nothing about Cadsuane or her behavior would make me trust her... she asks so much of Rand, but she gives nothing in return.
Also, and I forgot to mention this earlier: how about Elaida? I totally did a "whoop" when she got captured by the Seanchan. Totally served her smug little self right. ;D
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Cadsuane is annoying because she, like most other Aes Sedai, think that Rand needs to be controlled or guided by them. The problem is none of them is omniscient. Not even close. They've continued only to mess things up worse for Rand. Does he need help or some advice? Yep. Sure does. But he doesn't need a bunch of schemers and manipulaters trying to manipulate him into doing what they think is right? Bottom line it's hella-annoying that they all think they KNOW better than he does. They don't. Even Egwene is all panicky because "the Dragon Reborn is out there uncontrolled". Bad Egwene! He's the prophesied savior, a human being, not some wild animal.
I'm with douglas and Eerongal on the whole Moiraine issue. She is held in high regard because Rand came to trust her.
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I think most people dislike Cadsuane because she's annoying. She's supposed to be some kind of super-Aes Sedai but she hasn't done anything yet. Except be super annoying.
I understand her perspective, but that doesn't make her less annoying. But I honestly think it's a mark of great writing that I can be really truly irritated by a fictional character.
^Agree.
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Also, and I forgot to mention this earlier: how about Elaida? I totally did a "whoop" when she got captured by the Seanchan. Totally served her smug little self right. ;D
Oh, heck yeah. Best part of the book. Period. I was hoping for Elaida's fall for quite some time, couldn't come fast enough.
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Also, and I forgot to mention this earlier: how about Elaida? I totally did a "whoop" when she got captured by the Seanchan. Totally served her smug little self right. ;D
Oh, heck yeah. Best part of the book. Period. I was hoping for Elaida's fall for quite some time, couldn't come fast enough.
Yeah I did the same. I was always confused by her character progression though. She went from the stern, strict, overbearing, motherly figure to a complete psychopath.
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Also, and I forgot to mention this earlier: how about Elaida? I totally did a "whoop" when she got captured by the Seanchan. Totally served her smug little self right. ;D
Oh, heck yeah. Best part of the book. Period. I was hoping for Elaida's fall for quite some time, couldn't come fast enough.
Yeah I did the same. I was always confused by her character progression though. She went from the stern, strict, overbearing, motherly figure to a complete pyscopath.
I honestly think that her "captivity" by the black ajah after she became amyrlin had a lot to do with her shift in character, that and the sudden rise to power.
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I'm with douglas and Eerongal on the whole Moiraine issue. She is held in high regard because Rand came to trust her.
Not just that. He trusted her, and she earned that trust. The only other characters with any claim to that are his three lovers, and I'm not sure how much that counts given that they got it mostly because he happened to fall in love with them. He trusts Perrin and Mat too, and probably most of the Emond's Fielders, but only because he grew up with them and trust was established before the series even started and they haven't broken it yet.
I was always confused by her character progression though. She went from the stern, strict, overbearing, motherly figure to a complete psychopath.
At least part of the psychopath change was due to Fain's influence, remember.
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At least part of the psychopath change was due to Fain's influence, remember.
Good call. I completely forgot that they ever even met. That and with what Eerongal said could explain it I suppose.
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At least part of the psychopath change was due to Fain's influence, remember.
Good call. I completely forgot that they ever even met. That and with what Eerongal said could explain it I suppose.
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that, too. But that's not surprising. I rely heavily on EWOT to keep up with most things WOT. I think Elaida's rapid descent into megalomania/hysteria was a bit over-written, but attributable to Fain (now that we've been reminded), ill-gotten power and other above-mentioned corrupting influences. Won't it be interesting/satisfying to catch up with Elaida's POV for a bit? I think there will be a chance for her redemption, though. She was never downright evil and we'll see how much conscience she's retained and how capable she will be to recognize her errors.
There will have to be a little tea party at the very, very end with Cad., Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elaida and the ghost of Verin all promising to stay the heck out of everyone's business from then on. Just be glad I'm not writing this.
Oh, and where did I get that Cadsuane will teach Rand to "laugh and to cry"? Did I make that up? Min's viewing originally said that she'll teach him "something," but wasn't that eventually revised?
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Oh, and where did I get that Cadsuane will teach Rand to "laugh and to cry"? Did I make that up? Min's viewing originally said that she'll teach him "something," but wasn't that eventually revised?
If i remember correctly, that was something she resolved to herself, she swore she would make him do the above.
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And while i fit into the group of young single males I am frankly offended that you would categorize me in the fashion of a simpleton... i can deal with elitist pig but a bloddy moron hell no! (note this is a damn rant not a joke i'm genuinely annoyed not mad but irritatated that this generalization was made) I don't want people bowing to the main character and i abhor it when ppl do so to me. I'm an individualist and believe in an educated and opinionated public that is still open minded. I don't dislike Cadsuane but she annoys me on a regular basis for the above reasons which i find more irratating in most of the other Aes Sedai.
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There will have to be a little tea party at the very, very end with Cad., Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elaida and the ghost of Verin all promising to stay the heck out of everyone's business from then on. Just be glad I'm not writing this.
bahaha.... that would be nice.
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Lets just say I whent out and bought the Mistborn series after I read The Gathering Storm.
Note:
I love the WOT books because I always felt Robert Jordan was going to wright the books the way he thought they should be told and never caved to those readers who constantly scream I want it now I want it now!!!!!!
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Having now read TGS i can't be happier, what a great addition to the series. The major plot lines that were tied off show the series is well on it's way towards the final battle, and the characters and there development was bang on for me. I was most impressed with the subtleties that were incorporated into the characters, Matt for me showed the necessary changes to bring him into battle fully focused, previously i felt both he and Perrin had been running. Each hoping to somehow avoid the responsibilities of the situations they found themselves in. Matt after the events in Hinderstap and then the subsequent meeting with Verrin appeared to turn the page for me, it showed in my opinion that he was no longer going to run. It was time to start fighting. The other small change for him is he is starting to realize he is in love with Tuon, and that is definately conflicting with his natural inner rogue.
As for Perrin he has been the most stubborn of character's, and as a result has had a very difficult time adjusting to his new lot in life as the leader of the rekindling nation of Mantheran. Towards the end of the book however the stage appears to be set for him to finally come around, i expect he will very early in the TOM deal with both his wolf half and his leadership fears.
As for Rand i think in the next book he will have to do some damage control, his deep rooted anger and the dual personalities were leading most of his allies to fear for his sanity. By the end you feel that the games of power and control that existed well before
Just speculation but i also feel between Mat and Perrin and the reforming of Mantheran might play a major role in the end of the series. Mantheran was a previosly a majopr thorn in the dark one's side, and all the main character's aside from Rand are descendants of that former nation .
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Lost part of my post somehow so i'll finsih it off here
As for Rand i think in the next book he will have to do some damage control, his deep rooted anger and the dual personalities were leading most of his allies to fear for his sanity. By the end you feel that the games of power and control that existed well before the coming of the dragon have begun to take fester amongst his followers. His lack of compassion was like a wedge and he'll need to re-engage his allies and reforge the trust and confidence that was lost.
Cadsuanne will have to suck it up in the next book and abandon her need for control, in this book she embodied the old ways of the tower, control, manipulate and expect absolute obedience. These attidues led to the near downfall of the tower and the near fall of the Dragon Reborn, as the effect they had on Rand were nearly fatal. Egwene has been the catalyst for change in the tower (i'd speculate there were 4 taveran from Emond's field?) And it is time for that change to catch up with Cadsuanne i'd say.
As for Verin "Awesome"
Egwene "i'd say the battle ajah need to line up and take some lessons!
To some up i can't wait for TOM
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Just b/c someone forces change doesn't make them taavern or however you spell it. If that was the case Suian Sanche is one along with some of the memories in Mat's head.
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In terms of Egwene It is only speculation that she is taveran, however in terms of the overall story to this point she has been a very dominent character. And she has contributed far more than Matt and Perrin to the cause of the light.
Without her the tower fractures, the Aes Sedai as a result would be a very ineffectual group for the Dragon in the last battle.
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The Aes Sedai are, in my view, working against the light even with Egwene as the Amrylin. She wishes to control everything including Rand, she can she exist to serve and yet the Aes Sedai have forgotten this and just impede the work that needs to be done.
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OK, I think I've caught up with all the posts so far, and won't be going back over old ground, much.
Communication
I agree with RedMars11 #42 that there are some good and refreshing conversations in TGS. In particular, I like:
- the developing romance between Siuan and "You lout!" a.k.a. Gareth; Brandon does seem to have a knack for low-key romance subplots: there were at least three good ones in Mistborn
- the deadpan humour from Talmanes, something other than WoT's usual mix of solemnity and rants
- the straight shooting from Tam despite being menaced by the might-makes-right channelers Rand and Cadsuane. Tam in particular had me thinking "Yes! At last!" after Rand's repeated refusal to explore his own motivations beyond the dreaded "Because I must" mantra.
An important piece of communication yet to come is for the Ta'veren and the Seanchan to compare notes about their prophesies, and try to reconcile them.
Subversion of Rand
I agree with happyman #198 et seq, that the DO's trying hard to subvert Rand. It was a goal worth sacrificing Semirhage for - which looks like a very deliberate move, as Shaidar Haran itself was involved. It also fits with something Verin said on p600 of the novel, about the DO being subtler than people think.
My predictions
I saw 2 things coming that happened, and one that didn't. Aviendha's pointless chores were to provoke her into defiance: yep. Silviana as Keeper (rather like the way Henry VII married Elizabeth of York to stop The War of the Roses from flaring up again): yep. The Seanchan extracting the Horn of Valere from the White Tower for Mat: nope.
Verin
Mmmm, I do like a good 'torpedo' character. There are a few of them dotted around in Dickens's novels, for example, and I was impressed at how Verin went the same sort of way.
Perrin's anecdote
The bit about enjoying the anticipation of the wooden horse, even more than eventually having it, was a good little reflection and nicely in character.
Bloodknives
For all we know, Siuan may have saved Egwene from the bloodknives, so Egwene's reproach of "You should've left me lying in the corridor", or whatever it was, was a bit off. Still, maybe Egwene didn't know about bloodknives.
Saa
The last book I read before TGS was Catch-22, and one of its catchphrases is "He's got flies in his eyes!" - so that's what I was thinking every time saa were described.
Sleete
Brandon had something up on his website last year, about putting a sponsored character into TGS as a charity fundraiser. He/she would be a peripheral character resembling the auction winner, and would have a display of awesomeness, much like Charlz Guybon in one of the previous books. My guess is that it went ahead, and that the warder Sleete is the sponsored character.
Moiraine
Moiraine's still my favourite character in the series, mainly because she was an active and dedicated field operative, in strong contrast to the usual exasperating Aes Sedai style of sitting back and making machinations based on bad intelligence. It was comforting to read that some of the other characters were missing her too.
Overall
I'm feeling very satisfied with TGS.
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Naeff is the charity contest winner character.
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Naeff is the charity contest winner character.
Ah well, it looks like my guesswork is down to 2/4. Thanks for the information.