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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: zas678 on December 11, 2008, 03:30:43 AM

Title: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on December 11, 2008, 03:30:43 AM
Ok, I think that there is a lot of speculation on the Shards of Andonalsium, but there is something going on.
Here is what Brandon Sanderson has stated in the Hero of Ages topic
Quote
Ruin and Preservation were not the only Shards of Adonalsium, though they are the only ones on Scadrial at the moment.
(Scadrial is the planet Mistborn is on)

Quote
A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two.  The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground.
Quote

You've also seen one other manifestation like this....
Such as...this?
The "lake" was barely ten feet deep—more like a pool. Its water was a crystalline blue, and Raoden could see no inlets or outlets.
If that's what you're hinting at...I never thought of the connection before! I just kept thinking of Aether of Night, and never thought of this pool at all.

Both are accurate, but the first is what I meant, as most people here don't have access to Aether.


Quote
The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself.  Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them.  These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used.  It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers.  The form of that super fuel is important.  In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal.  In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing.  In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future.  In the case of concentrated Preservation (Lerasium), it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation.  (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly.  When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy.  Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body.  It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose.  That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.
(Lerasium added by me)

Quote
Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.

You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call.  You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power. 
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

Something I noticed is that Ati pulls with his magic (energy lost)
And that Leras/preservasion pushes with his magic (energy gained)
Maybe we could use that to help find the other Shards?

I think it's safe to assume that the Dor is a Shard, and we met it when Raoden fell in the pool.

I don't know about the others. Possible canditates are:

Lifeless? ( I don't know who would power them. Maybe they gave people Breaths?)
Iridescent Colors (powering the returned)

Jaddeth (powering the monks of Dahkhor)

Maybe whatever powers the Smedrey Talents? (Alcatraz)


Others?

Maybe we will be able to figure out who Hoid is as well...

Zas


Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 11, 2008, 06:30:29 AM
I'm thinking whatever makes the return is the fourth.  I agree that the dor when Raoden falls into the pool because it's active, not passive -- it shows him the truth.  The other two shards also are active.  I think that's going to be the main thing to finding them is the shards are things that seem to be inanimate interacting with the characters.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 11, 2008, 08:00:16 PM
It seems almost certain that the thing that talked to Lightsong is a shard.  I mean, what else would it be?  One of the Returned's special skills is the ability to see the future (just a bit).

I'm not certain about the Dor.  I'm personally more likely to view it as an aspect of a shard, or the power of a shard (rather like the mists were related to preservation), rather than the shard proper.  Maybe the thing Raoden heard in the pool was the actual shard.

Jaddeth is an interesting case.  I've mentioned in the past that I find it *very* interesting that the Raod was caused by an earthquake.  If you read through Elantris carefully, you notice that Jaddeth is consistently treated as a God buried inside the Earth, waiting for the entire planet to be converted before he will rise and reign.  I think it would be very stupid of us (political lies notwithstanding) to assume that there is no truth in these claims.  Similarly, it would be stupid to automatically assume that there isn't anything around going by the name of "Domi."  But it's also perfectly possible neither exists and there is just the Dor.  The Dor is the only confirmed supernatural power in the world (although given how carefully Brandon defines his worlds, supernatural really seems like the wrong term).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Llewin on December 11, 2008, 09:31:31 PM
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?

What power made the monks in to 'demons'?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 11, 2008, 09:50:27 PM
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?

What power made the monks in to 'demons'?

Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start.  All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power.  This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience.  How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any.  It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on December 12, 2008, 12:49:25 AM
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?

What power made the monks in to 'demons'?

Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start.  All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power.  This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience.  How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any.  It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.


I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.

Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?

Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?

Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?

I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.

Zas
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: haroldthesage on December 12, 2008, 09:50:43 PM
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?

What power made the monks in to 'demons'?

Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start.  All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power.  This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience.  How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any.  It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.


I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.

Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?

Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?

Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?

I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.

Zas


That makes a lot of sense, but it seems too repetitive. I get the feeling that Brandon will be doing it differently on each world leaving us guessing as to what comes next.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 13, 2008, 06:47:14 PM
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?

What power made the monks in to 'demons'?

Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start.  All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power.  This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience.  How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any.  It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.


I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.

Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?

Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?

Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?

I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.

Zas

They are similar in some ways.  However, there are also similarities between the magics in Opelon that you are glossing over, and some of the analogies with Mistborn are definitely strained.  For instance, the Dahkor monks bones are made out of symbols---symbols from the ancient Fjorrel alphabet.  Just like Aons are from Arelon's alphabet.  They are both alphabetic systems, which produce enhanced humans.  All enhanced humans remain enhanced at all times with no need for extra power, no known source beyond the Dor.  And IIRC we don't know that all Dahkor monks require human sacrifice to be produced.  Some effects are produced via human sacrifice, but others appear not to be.

ClayShin requires a human to concentrate, but the power does not seem to come from themselves.  The one time we have seen it used, it seemed as though it could be used indefinitely as long as the user didn't loose focus.  It seems more  like channeling the Dor than anything else.

Or at least, without more information, that theory is consistent.  It also requires fewer entities and less complications.

Also, I would find the analogies repetitive myself.  Different ways of accessing the same power sounds like a more useful device for Elantris.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Archanon on December 14, 2008, 09:41:23 PM
I tend to agree that Brandon is more likely to keep us guessing than to make the Elantris system that similar to the Mistborn system. The pool god/presence is probably a shard, and possibly also the thing behind the Dor.

I'd almost be willing to bet money that the Iridescent Tones/whatever you want to call the things behind the Returned are another Shard, since Lightsong actually hears them/it talking to him.

Other possibilities:
Austre? (The god that the people in Idris worship)
Domi? (Opposed to Jaddeth. Occam's razor would say that it's just the Dor, though.)
Something to do with Nightblood (It acts... oddly and powerfully. Not particularly strong case, though.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Dount Cooku on December 15, 2008, 06:12:25 PM
I agree with you on the Iridescent Tones, Austre, and Domi.  I beg to differ on Nightblood.  My explanation is spoilerific, so I'll put it down a line or two for those who haven't read Warbreaker.



***Warbreaker Spoiler ahead!***



It acts oddly because it was specifically created to "fight evil."  However, a piece of steel does not have the same conception of good and evil that humans do, and so it sometimes acts in strange ways.  I guess that's what happens when you have a sentient weapon. :)  But it's definitely not a shard.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Archanon on December 15, 2008, 08:24:20 PM
Yeah, I did say it wasn't a strong case. I was just throwing it out there because Nightblood acts differently than anything else in Warbreaker, even with an in-story explanation. (And I put it wrong. I didn't mean to say Nightblood might be a shard, just that there might be some Shard that was involved in Nightblood's creation.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 15, 2008, 11:09:50 PM
**Warbreaker Spoilers**

Yeah, I did say it wasn't a strong case. I was just throwing it out there because Nightblood acts differently than anything else in Warbreaker, even with an in-story explanation. (And I put it wrong. I didn't mean to say Nightblood might be a shard, just that there might be some Shard that was involved in Nightblood's creation.)

The in-story explanation seems sufficient to me, once you accept all the other aspects of the magic system.

Of course, the magic system is almost certainly related to the unique power of one of the shards---that seems like a likely way to build a universe...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on December 18, 2008, 05:33:08 AM
This got mentioned in the Hoid forum, but it applies here, so whatever.
What if Hoid is a Shard?
We have met him, and have sort of seen his influence (his planet jumping)

Zas
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 19, 2008, 06:10:25 PM
Here's a quote from Brandon (lifted from the Hoid thread)

Quote
You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call.  You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

If I had to guess which these are, I would claim that the one whose power we've seen would be the thing that causes the Dor.  The Dor is quite clearly a power which we have seen directly, but we haven't really seen the intelligence behind it (if the pool has an intelligence, it is probably a reflection of something greater.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Comatose on December 20, 2008, 08:44:35 AM
I was thinking about how the flowers that make the dyes of hallendren (tears of...) might be a shard's body.  They grow only in one place (which reminds me of atium), and the are the centre of the hallendren economy (also like atium).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Tage on December 22, 2008, 07:42:09 PM
This discussion is more productive if you've managed to read Brandon's BYU thesis, the original Dragonsteel. Three of the main characters have direct contact with shards, which makes it a little easier to figure out what's going on with the shards themselves. As I recall, the Draongsteel world had more shards fall to it than the others, so they're much more prevalent there.

Hoid isn't technically a shard, though by the time you meet him in most books he's bound to one, so it's nearly the same thing.

As far as I know, Warbreaker is not in the same universe as the rest of the epic fantasies. Nor are Alcatraz and Scribbler.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on December 22, 2008, 08:58:39 PM
I'm pretty sure Warbreaker is in the same universe as Mistborn, Elantris, Way of Kings, and Dragonsteel.

Also, Brandon kept the shards in Dragonsteel pretty subtle, so not all readers would have necessarily noticed them.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Tage on December 23, 2008, 06:37:47 PM
Is it? I could see how Warbreaker would fit in, but don't remember Brandon saying it was. Generally the clue is whether or not Hoid appears in the world somewhere. I don't remember a Hoid in Warbreaker, but maybe he'll be in a sequel or something.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: SarahG on December 23, 2008, 06:40:21 PM
In Warbreaker, Hoid is the storyteller who informs Siri of the history of the God-kings and their deaths.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 23, 2008, 07:10:37 PM
In Warbreaker, Hoid is the storyteller who informs Siri of the history of the God-kings and their deaths.

And has a very mysterious background, per his own words.

No, Warbreaker is definitely part of the same universe/cosmology.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: echigo109 on December 26, 2008, 03:46:18 AM
where can you find a copy of dragonsteel i've looked in book stores
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: little wilson on December 26, 2008, 04:33:44 AM
It's only available in the BYU library. If you go to the Dragonsteel thread here, you can find out more about that. Just don't read too far down, because then it turns spoilerish. But the first few posts are safe.

And Hoid was definitely in Warbreaker, as someone else already said. He mentioned that he learned his way of telling stories in a far away place where two lands meet and gods have died (I think that's what he says, anyway). And I think I remember someone else (Ookla?) saying that sounded like Dragonsteel. I wouldn't know. I haven't read it. But I want to....
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: echigo109 on December 30, 2008, 04:52:13 AM
is the planet of Mistborn, Elantris, and Warbreaker in the same universe
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: little wilson on December 30, 2008, 05:27:00 AM
As far as I know, any book with Hoid in it is in the Mistborn universe.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on January 09, 2009, 05:20:05 AM
I think, and I could be completely wrong about this, that Domi and Jaddeth are two of the shards that we have met, and that they have a relationship similar to that of Ati and Leras. Not to say that one wants to destroy and one wants to preserve, but that they have opposing viewpoints. I starteed thinking that Domi might be the Shard behind the Dor, and Jaddeth might be the Shard behind the Monks of Dakhor. I also think that Austere from Warbreaker could be a shard, and that he is the one responsible for resurrecting the Returned. I could be completely wrong about this, seeing as how the only books by Brandon I have read are Elantris, The Mistborn Trilogy, and Warbreaker.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: RedMars11 on January 13, 2009, 03:13:04 AM
My question is are we seeing a multiverse created out of something breaking apart at the dawn of creation, with each of the three known worlds being the same planet (More or less) in alternate realities, or are they all in the same dimension/universe/galaxy/however specific you want to get.

Unless future books dealing with Shards include space travel, this probably matters very little.  I mean he could invent a magic which allows for dimmensional travel, or not.  But I've never heard of a magic system which allows for travel across worlds.  So this really only matters when pondering how sci-fi he wants to get in the future.

Also how the physics of each universe work.  Do these Shards just effect their own world, can users of the Dor or Allomancy use it off planet, etc.  The Dor weakened the further the Elantrians got from Elantris, so I'm really wondering how things would get effected if Mr. Sanderson ever went Dark Tower on us.  I hunger for that day I think.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 14, 2009, 05:01:17 AM
Brandon has already said that the third Mistborn trilogy would involve space travel.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: darxbane on January 14, 2009, 05:14:21 PM
This is unrelated to EUOL's universe, but in the Wheel of Time, the one power was used to travel to other worlds.  Regardless, there doesn't have to be a prior instance of magical world travel in order for Brandon to come up with something.  Technically, if an Elantrian knew the exact distance, he could probably travel there, although I imagine it would be a one way trip, as the Dor would most likely be non-existent in the other world.  I'm sure perfectly good ways to get around that problem could be thought up, as well.  The coolest thing would be that the shards powers are the same in all the worlds, and it is the genetic makeup of the people that determine how the power is manifested.  that would mean that Mistborn are Mistborn everywhere, along with Elantrians, Awakeners, etc.  It would make for fantastic battles between worlds.  Then imagine if the different races bred?  What would an Elantrian Mistborn be able to do?  This is why Fantasy rules.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on January 14, 2009, 07:52:32 PM
Quote
Regardless, there doesn't have to be a prior instance of magical world travel in order for Brandon to come up with something.

This is a slight tangent, but one could easily argue that most Sci-fi novels have magical world travel.  The boundary between fantasy and science fiction is thinner than tissue paper.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Dount Cooku on January 14, 2009, 08:44:09 PM
This is a slight tangent, but one could easily argue that most Sci-fi novels have magical world travel.  The boundary between fantasy and science fiction is thinner than tissue paper.

Very true.  I heard a quote once that the difference between fantasy and sci-fi is that fantasy has trees.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: DataPath on January 16, 2009, 09:52:29 PM
Is the Dor the only confirmed supernatural power in the world?

What power made the monks in to 'demons'?

Occam's razor would suggest that the Dor is the logical place to start.  All of the known supernatural enhancements (Dahkor monks, Elantrians, Shuden's exercise) cause the one wielding the power to glow, the Elantrian's permanently, the monks and Shuden when they are using their power.  This seems to be a property of the Dor, especially from Raoden's experience.  How the monks change themselves to be able to access it is a fair question, but it seems to me, at least, that the Dor somehow being receptive to the chants being used is as good an explanation as any.  It could just naturally be one way how humans in Opelon access power.


I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.

Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?

Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?

Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?

I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.

Zas

They are similar in some ways.  However, there are also similarities between the magics in Opelon that you are glossing over, and some of the analogies with Mistborn are definitely strained.  For instance, the Dahkor monks bones are made out of symbols---symbols from the ancient Fjorrel alphabet.  Just like Aons are from Arelon's alphabet.  They are both alphabetic systems, which produce enhanced humans.  All enhanced humans remain enhanced at all times with no need for extra power, no known source beyond the Dor.  And IIRC we don't know that all Dahkor monks require human sacrifice to be produced.  Some effects are produced via human sacrifice, but others appear not to be.

ClayShin requires a human to concentrate, but the power does not seem to come from themselves.  The one time we have seen it used, it seemed as though it could be used indefinitely as long as the user didn't loose focus.  It seems more  like channeling the Dor than anything else.

Or at least, without more information, that theory is consistent.  It also requires fewer entities and less complications.

Also, I would find the analogies repetitive myself.  Different ways of accessing the same power sounds like a more useful device for Elantris.

One concept that Brandon really likes and uses somewhat frequently is that of the physical, cognitive, and spiritual aspects of things.

AonDor seems to be cognitive, requiring careful study and concentration to access.

ClayShin appears to be spiritual, bringing oneself into harmony to access the Dor.

The Jaddeth one appears to be physical.

Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 16, 2009, 10:17:24 PM
I'll buy that.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on January 18, 2009, 11:27:40 PM
The idea fits much better with what we know of the world.  Different ways of accessing the power based on different aspects of the Dor---that makes sense.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Zhalfirin on February 28, 2009, 05:56:41 AM
Unless future books dealing with Shards include space travel, this probably matters very little.  I mean he could invent a magic which allows for dimmensional travel, or not.  But I've never heard of a magic system which allows for travel across worlds.  So this really only matters when pondering how sci-fi he wants to get in the future.

There has been a magic system that allows for travel between worlds, the Planeswalkers in Magic: The Gathering, which Brandon is familiar with (as he has played the card game).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Eleaneth on March 09, 2009, 09:19:09 PM
I think that Alcatraz is in the universe of Adonalsium. Here's why: when Alcatraz finds the Smedry talent chart presumably drawn by Alcatraz Smedry the First, it has two largely unexplained names on it: Identity and Possibility. Identity is represented by the Librarians, who want everything to stay the same. Possibility might be represented by the Smedrys, who find ways to use ridiculous talents in beautiful ways. Alcatraz the First's tomb even makes a comment about how the ancients tried to call down the power of divinity or of creation. (This is all in the second book.)

Anyway, I think that Identity and Possibility are the two shards that came to Alcatraz's planet (or ours. :) ), and that their battle is similar to Preservation vs. Ruin, except that Identity wants absolute, predictable sameness, and Possibility wants growth and humor. Maybe Possibility was a girl shard and Preservation was in love with her. :D That would definitely explain why Preservation had such insight into the possibilities of creating sentient life and eventually one person--the Hero of Ages, Sazed--with both the powers of Preservation and of Ruin.

It's also interesting that just like Allomancy draws on the power of creation, so, apparently, do the Smedry talents.

I think that the Shards we have encountered are Identity, Possibility, Preservation, Ruin, the Dor, and the opposite of the Dor (the "water" that dissolved Elantrians). I don't think we've seen the Warbreaker shards, if they exist, yet.

I also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 10, 2009, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: Eleaneth
Anyway, I think that Identity and Possibility are the two shards that came to Alcatraz's planet (or ours. Smiley ), and that their battle is similar to Preservation vs. Ruin, except that Identity wants absolute, predictable sameness, and Possibility wants growth and humor. Maybe Possibility was a girl shard and Preservation was in love with her.  :D That would definitely explain why Preservation had such insight into the possibilities of creating sentient life and eventually one person--the Hero of Ages, Sazed--with both the powers of Preservation and of Ruin.
Um, I really don't see how that explains anything.  It's not written in stone that there are exactly two Shards for every world, and they don't necessarily fight each other.  IMO, there is no "anti-Dor" in Elantris; the water Elantrians dissolve in is part of the Dor as well.  If there is a malevolent Shard in Elantris, it's probably Jaddeth.

At least one of the Shards in Warbreaker (if there are more than one) clearly has the power to bring people back from the Afterlife -- and give them visions of the future.  Sazed hinted that he might eventually gain this power too.  Is it possible that the Warbreaker world is what Scadrial will be like with just one God watching over everybody?

Quote from: Eleaneth
I also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.
It's certainly possible.  Although that would severely limit the number of series Mr. Sanderson would be able to work into his universe -- and if he decides that Alcatraz and Scribbler are Adonalsium worlds, he probably only has three or four more worlds left to build.  Surely he wouldn't be that quick to put himself out of business.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on March 10, 2009, 05:06:37 PM
Quote
Quote from: Eleaneth
I also think that there are 16 shards total, structured similarly to the Allomantic table. There are a lot of hints in Hero of Ages about how the number 16 is somehow associated with the fundamental structure of the universe.
It's certainly possible.  Although that would severely limit the number of series Mr. Sanderson would be able to work into his universe -- and if he decides that Alcatraz and Scribbler are Adonalsium worlds, he probably only has three or four more worlds left to build.  Surely he wouldn't be that quick to put himself out of business.

I've speculated that there are 16 shards as well.  It fits with what Sazed says.

However, it is just as possible that we have 16 shards of 16 shards.  That would keep Brandon in business for the foreseeable future.

Or he could, you know, have 16 shards and then try something completely different.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Rrikor on March 10, 2009, 05:11:33 PM
I don't think we have to worry about keeping brandon busy.  With way of king being 10 books that right there is 10 years worth of work at least. Throw in another mistborn trilogy, possible Elantris book, another warbreaker book, and doing something with the scribbler and we still have alot to see from him.  That doesn't include any of the worlds that the other shards exist on.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Eleaneth on March 10, 2009, 05:40:27 PM
Yeah, he's certainly clever enough to think up plenty of new ideas. I mean, look at how many beautiful worlds and creative magic systems he's already developed... the colors of Warbreaker, the metals of Mistborn, the Dor of Elantris, and the silimatics and Smedry talents of Alcatraz. I've never read another author who rivals him in the building of "magic" systems.

Edit: Although, I do think that the Dor and the Elantris Pool are opposites... They're too different. It's like the Dor is Energy and the Pool is Rest, or something like that.

Another idea: The shards might be organized based on the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical realms. The powers of Preservation and Ruin are very physical-world based. On their world, metal is power. Metal glows so brightly they can't even look too closely at it. Metal is very physical. In contrast, they can't read minds, and they can only touch minds with difficulty (unless, for example, the person has metal embedded in them, in which case Ruin can touch them more easily). The Warbreaker powers seem to be more spiritual to me, and the Elantris powers seem more cognitive (it takes great precision to use the Dor at all, either through AonDor, the ClayShen form, or for the Derethi monk-demons). Alcatraz's powers also seem Cognitive to me.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. :)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 10, 2009, 06:45:55 PM
Is it possible that the Warbreaker world is what Scadrial will be like with just one God watching over everybody?

That idea doesn't work with Brandon's plans for the two future Mistborn trilogies. Or wait, you're not saying the Warbreaker world is Scadrial's future, but just similar to it? I'm not seeing what about it would be what Scadrial's future would be with just one god, because Scadrial would have no reason to have Returned or Awakening. Sazed's statements about bringing people back from the dead don't indicate a process like Returning but just a standard resurrection process. Scadrial's magic system will continue to be metals-based.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on March 11, 2009, 01:18:44 AM
Edit: Although, I do think that the Dor and the Elantris Pool are opposites... They're too different. It's like the Dor is Energy and the Pool is Rest, or something like that.

They could be different aspects of the same shard.  In that sense, they would be opposites as well.

Of course, even if we have two shards, that doesn't mean they are fighting.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 11, 2009, 02:30:18 AM
Dragonsteel Prime had two people with shards working together, and at least one shard working against them.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 11, 2009, 04:38:24 PM
I'm pretty sure we have only seen one shard's influence on Elantris and if there is another one it is sleeping. What I'm curious about is the royal blood of Idris how are they decendants of returned is that another shards influence? also Warbreaker's world isn't really well known same with mistborn we only know a limited area the two nations and on Scardriel we only have seen one pole...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Eleaneth on March 12, 2009, 07:15:20 AM
Quote
I'm pretty sure we have only seen one shard's influence on Elantris and if there is another one it is sleeping.

Actually, I really like the sleeping shard idea... especially if it's the shard of Rest or Peace or something like that. So much more to find out!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 12, 2009, 05:12:26 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if there was a sleeping shard on any of the planets... i mean even Sazed duking it out on a higher plane wouldn't shock me too much (though I don't think that will happen). :-*
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 12, 2009, 06:04:07 PM
One of the shards in Dragonsteel Prime wasn't connected to anyone at first and later became connected to the main character. I imagine Brandon will have similar shards in the future.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 13, 2009, 03:21:56 PM
Ookla do you mean an individual could later be linked to a new shard or an entire realm discovering it?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 13, 2009, 05:47:21 PM
I mean some of the shards are not necessarily attached to a person/godlike personality but are attached to objects. If a person touches the object, they can use its power. If they are associated with the object long enough, the shard can transfer its attachment to that person instead of the object and they can gain its power permanently.

So yeah I'm talking about an individual rather than a society.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 13, 2009, 09:45:09 PM
Hello again.
I just posted for the first time but, in case you didn't read it, I greet you all again.  :)

I believe BS is a good foreseer. He plants seeds in his books which give fruits long time in the future of the series. That is why I think if he has planted the Shards theme (and he just plainly said he has), then he would have done it in a way we can recognize it.
I write this because I believe we will see similar patterns regarding the Shards. For example, having two opposite forces to create, a triad of magic systems and things like that.
One of the constants I believe should be that any "magic" comes from the energy from creation, through a Shard. He said that the way it comes out or the form it takes (the "magic effects") will depend upon the Realmatics (or something like that, I believe he means the World and Realm mechanics  ??? ).
Furthermore, he says we have met 6 Shards (R&P, 2 others who have interacted, 1 power, 1 influence). I just can suppose he refers to series widely known to everybody and not just a few Chosen (that is, Elantris, Mistborn and Warbreaker).

So, I believe we have 2 Shards in each of this worlds, and that each one is opposite to the other in their world. As you have pointed out, they don't have to be at war, in Elantris they could be Life and Death or Energy and Rest or some other duality which will not be confronted but complementary.
Also, they could be at war, but they are not in the same stage as in Mistborn. In Mistborn, we have the Final Battle. In Warbreaker we see conflict in a minor scale (some people who want to get rid of their rulers). In Elantris conflict is very high, the Wyrn wants to dominate the world and kill every arelean or teosian.

And after this runt, if you are been so nice as to keep reading, thank you and here is something maybe can help us discern whether there are Shards active or not in a world and its general "alignment"(or maybe not, who knows  ??? ).
Magic has a source. Its source has to be something which is part of a Shard, because all magic effects must come from the power of creation (this is something I have to assume and have no final evidence to, but we are theorizing....). So, any magic effect must be "fueled" by something. And this something can tell us (if we think about it) if the magic leads to general "good" or "evil".
For example, in Elantris we have the Dor. This seems to me much like the Mists (although less physical). So, I assume that this must be the body(=power) of a Shard. We have 3 ways to channel it, Aons, ChayShin and Dakhor. This one seems generally "good", although the "Dakhor effects" (not the enhancements, which are permanent), need sacrifice, but maybe they are using another magic system (remember that Inquisitors could have Allomancy, Ferruchemy and Hemalurgy).
In Warbreaker we have Breath. It seems to me like what we know of Preservation. There is a spark of Preservation in every human in Scadrel. Maybe this is something similar. Difference is, this spark can be given away, received and stored. I don't know what to think of this, but it seems like the "Spirit" of a Shard, whatever it is. This is something of a "neutral" magic, neither you lose or gain, present or steal.

I will end this suddenly because I fear I made a long post and I am starting to rant. I'm sorry, my second post and I'm doing it.....
Well, let's see what comes of it. I'm still on page 8 of the HoA spoilers so, I probably miss a lot of things. Thank you for reading  :)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 14, 2009, 12:39:23 AM
Adonalsium is an anagram for Dios Alumna.

Shards of Adonalsium is an anagram for A Handmaid Surfs Solo!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on March 14, 2009, 01:01:09 AM
Adonalsium is an anagram for Dios Alumna.

Shards of Adonalsium is an anagram for A Handmaid Surfs Solo!
:o It all makes sense now!. The mystery has been solved!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Reaves on March 14, 2009, 01:02:07 AM
Adonalsium is an anagram for Dios Alumna.

Shards of Adonalsium is an anagram for A Handmaid Surfs Solo!

Well done, Watson. My suspicions have been confirmed.

...You know my methods, Watson...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 14, 2009, 10:28:54 AM
Adonalsium is an anagram for Dios Alumna.

Shards of Adonalsium is an anagram for A Handmaid Surfs Solo!
It's obvious Adonalsium is Walt Disney because it's an anagram for Diosa Mulan (Goddes Mulan).

Hoid is a Shard = Dash Dish Roi
Which means Hoid was originally a waiter.  :o
And, as waiters in means of transport are stewards, that means Hoid is Sazed.
Logic wins  8)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 20, 2009, 02:57:40 AM
I'm sick of hearing this ridiculous theory of Hoid being a shard!!!! He could be akin to Ati or Leras who controlled a shards powers but even with their deaths someone could seize the shards and fix the problems LR made... might as well say Sazed is a giant Easter chocolate bunny and his power comes from extensive diabetes... give me a break...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 20, 2009, 04:06:50 AM
If it's so ridiculous, don't give it the honor of being called "theory".  A theory is an idea that has factual backing behind it.  In fact, calling anything fans think of a "theory" is using a very loose interpretation of this definition.  Outside the bizarre world of a rabid fan's mind, very few things can legitimately be called theories.  For example, the only reason we call Einstein's Theories of Relativity "theories" is because they're well thought out and backed up by a lot of empirical evidence.  Most modern-day physicists take Einstein's ideas for granted and they still don't qualify as "Laws" yet.  Some random and vague notion a fourteen-year-old has about the next installment in a sci-fi/fantasy series that has yet to be drafted has no right to be called a theory, IMHO.

That said, Alatar was just making a joke.  I don't think he meant to imply that he really believes Brandon is going to say Hoid is a Shard.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 20, 2009, 05:05:37 AM
Cosmic he isn't the only one to say it and the theory of relativity isn't a law because it may not be true as it has declared war more or less on quantam physics...they contradict...but thats off topic and I'm sick of this stupid notion that a character can be a shard Sazed isn't one even...and this idea goes across more than this thread you might as well be spaming Narg quotes or chuck norris jokes on the forum... :'(

P.S. Narg is a character in Eye of the World 1st book of WoT and has one line that is quoted frequently on WoT forums and many made up lines also quoted plenty...

P.S. again Chuck Norris is what many call Yaweh or God ::)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 20, 2009, 05:18:07 AM
Meh, my point was just that calling stupid ideas like this "theories" affords them too much credibility already.  There's no such thing as a stupid theory; if an idea is stupid, then it's not a theory.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on March 20, 2009, 05:18:14 AM
Interesting fact I learned today from Brandon: Way of Kings is a Shard world. This shouldn't be terribly surprising. When he said that, I slapped my head and thought, "Oh, duh, one title floating around was Oathshards. Shards. Obviously."

Also it seems Way of Kings has the Shards displayed very prominently with the magics and stuff.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 20, 2009, 05:30:29 PM
Ben/Tage confirmed for us that Hoid has a shard. Saying that someone is a shard is shorthand for saying they are bound to one.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 20, 2009, 08:51:50 PM
I'm sick of hearing this ridiculous theory of Hoid being a shard!!!!
Wow, you're really sensitive on the matter, I just dug in the threads Hoid, HoA Spoilers and Shards of Adolnasium, but didn't see that"idea"  too many times.

Anyway, we were playing acronyms. In fact, I don't really think Hoid is a Shard (is = is bound to), unless Tage was referring to the revised Hoid (remember, BS first books don't set law in nowadays "Shard" worlds), unless he is bound to the part of Adolnasium which retains His Will and it is to let His Children (Shards) play alone or something like that.
I prefer the idea that he is something of a Watcher, or a Shepherd. He may be just watching how sentient life makes do in Adolnasium worlds.

Off topic: Theories and Laws in Science are something very different than theories, laws and ideas we use in common talking. Evolution will always be a Theory, although it is the most supported one in the history of Science, and Gravity will always be a law, whether we perfectly know how it works or not. Anyone with first year in a scientific career can explain why, I fear I wouldn't be able to do it properly.
Oh, and just to make it note, I more than double the age of 15 years old teenagers, Kaz.  :P

No offense taken, I hope.  ;)

Closing the OT, just say that Way of Kings is of course a Shard / Hoid / Adonalsium world, not only for the first book's title (Oathshards) but because it was written somewhere that there will be several Shards interacting in this world. Or maybe I just read that it was so in WoK Prime.  ???
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 21, 2009, 02:07:53 AM
I don't think we can apply the word "theory" to common speech, though.  I was extremely annoyed back when Harry Potter was at peak popularity and people were talking about how "Ron Weasley traveled back in time and became Albus Dumbledore" not only because it was a dumb idea but because they insisted on glorifying the dumb idea by calling it a "theory."  princeton.edu defines a theory as:
S: (n) theory (a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena) "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"
S: (n) hypothesis, possibility, theory (a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena) "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"
S: (n) theory (a belief that can guide behavior) "the architect has a theory that more is less"; "they killed him on the theory that dead men tell no tales"
Only the final definition even comes close to the way people throw this word around, and even that is a bit of a stretch.  I see the new usage of the word as a way of tricking people into giving other ideas undeserved credence.  If you're sitting on a couch thinking that maybe Hoid is really Santa Claus (Sinterklass), you don't have a theory.  You have an idea that may or may not be true.  If it can't be disproved, has no factual backing, and frankly makes no sense, calling it a theory makes it sound better than it really is.

Refer to the following link (http://heroeswiki.com/Theory:Paul_E._Sylar") for three examples of what some people consider valid "theories."  Particularly the last conversation:  "The creator said Mr. Muggles will never wear a trench coat."  "That's because Mr. Muggles is a dog."

FACEPALM.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 21, 2009, 11:06:41 PM
Quote
a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena
This is the definition which started all this "theory" thing. Of course, taking out "natural world" and replacing it for "fantasy or scifi world".
Bad thing, it degenerated to the point that any random idea is a "theory". Anyway, theories (actual fan theories) tend to be fairly developed, earning the title. Of course, there is always people who don't know how to talk (and sometimes it's us  :D ).

By the way, very insightful post, I see you have your ideas clear.

And, sorry for the OT (it should be less of an OT in the Hoid thread, by the way).

I feel that after the theories post, someone should take the conversation back to its original ideas. So....
Where do you all see a Shard's manifestation (id est, power or influence)?

In Elantris, I can see the Dor and the Pool, although I am not sure if they are different. I really believe all powers shown come from the Dor, and one interesting idea....
I believe the Dor is the power (according to Sazed, the body) of the Shard and the concept of Jaddeth (the sleeping buried god) is the mind of the same Shard so, ironically, both Arelens and Svordisans (please someone tell me how the names of the regions' peoples are in English) adore the same God.
It should seem obvious (because both Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth have the same root), but it isn't because Korathi and Derethi brought the concept of Unity (the original teachings) to their own different Gods (Jaddeth, a God of Earth and Domi, a God of Love).
I don't know, what do you think?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 22, 2009, 10:07:24 AM
A person from Arelon is "Arelene."  Not sure what you'd call a Svordish person.

I believe a comment from BS recently implied that we have seen six Shards between Elantris, Mistborn, and Warbreaker.  Since I can't imagine Warbreaker could possibly be portraying three Shards in its magic system(s), I think Elantris has two.  The pool that dissolves Elantrians strongly resembles the Well of Ascension (which was liquid Lerasium, apparently) and is therefore probably the liquid part of the Dor's "body."  Seons and Aons, I think, are the "gas" part of the Dor, and Elantris itself is the solid manifestation.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Raoden was "taken" by the Shaod when he was.  I think the sentient part of the Dor was able to "choose" him for its curse in order to heal itself.  I also think the chasm that injured the Dor's physical body was caused by Jaddeth (a separate Shard) in the first place.

We don't know much about Shu-Keseg (the father religion) yet, but I'll bet its followers are closer to the truth regarding the two Shards than the Korathi or the Derethi.  Also, ChayShan itself strongly resembles the Feruchemy practiced by Terrismen (in that the practitioner starts out very slowly and builds up speed, strength, and momentum gradually).  Aon-writing, obviously, follows after the pattern of Allomancy: something for nothing (well, no power is ever taken from living things, anyway).  It's also implied that whatever Dakhor monks do requires human sacrifice like Hemalurgy.  At least, there are many more hopefuls accepted than there are monks trained.  Whether they die by accident in the process of their intense training or are sacrificed to create a single super-soldier is as yet unknown, but... well...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 22, 2009, 10:00:44 PM
A person from Arelon is "Arelene."  Not sure what you'd call a Svordish person.

I believe a comment from BS recently implied that we have seen six Shards between Elantris, Mistborn, and Warbreaker.  Since I can't imagine Warbreaker could possibly be portraying three Shards in its magic system(s), I think Elantris has two.  The pool that dissolves Elantrians strongly resembles the Well of Ascension (which was liquid Lerasium, apparently) and is therefore probably the liquid part of the Dor's "body."  Seons and Aons, I think, are the "gas" part of the Dor, and Elantris itself is the solid manifestation.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Raoden was "taken" by the Shaod when he was.  I think the sentient part of the Dor was able to "choose" him for its curse in order to heal itself.  I also think the chasm that injured the Dor's physical body was caused by Jaddeth (a separate Shard) in the first place.

We don't know much about Shu-Keseg (the father religion) yet, but I'll bet its followers are closer to the truth regarding the two Shards than the Korathi or the Derethi.  Also, ChayShan itself strongly resembles the Feruchemy practiced by Terrismen (in that the practitioner starts out very slowly and builds up speed, strength, and momentum gradually).  Aon-writing, obviously, follows after the pattern of Allomancy: something for nothing (well, no power is ever taken from living things, anyway).  It's also implied that whatever Dakhor monks do requires human sacrifice like Hemalurgy.  At least, there are many more hopefuls accepted than there are monks trained.  Whether they die by accident in the process of their intense training or are sacrificed to create a single super-soldier is as yet unknown, but... well...
I was trying to part the post but... I really want to answer everything  ;)
First, thanks for the Arelenes one.

On the second paragraph, yes, he said we have met 6 Shards, 4 excluding Ati and Leras, and that the pool is one of the aspects we have seen.

I don't think it was coincidence on the part of Raoden, neither. In fact I was wondering if Raoden would be the one to be bound with the Dor's Shard, but then I read from BS that the children are going to be the sequel protagonists, so maybe one of them (the Elantrian, I suppose) is the Chosen One.
Probably the Chasm was caused by Jaddeth, but I'm thinking that Jaddeth and the Dor come from the same Shard, and that the Dor wis attuned to the land because it is kind of imprisoned, as Ruin was. So, Jaddeth = Dor.
There is no proof of this, but just that it would be original and ironic that the "good" and "bad" guys had the same God, and that it makes as sense as them being 2 Shards, because we have so little information.

About the magic systems....
I tried to parallel Hemalurgy and Dakhor, and it makes sense when they have to burn one monk (take into account it requires one monk, not one anybody) to teleport. But it doesn't make sense that they must sacrifice novices in order to make monks, because we have Hrathen, who left Dakhor.
Also, Aons don't get something from nothing. They really work as Allomancy, fueling something from burning the Dor.
Am I dreaming or was it written that Allomancy pure gain came from the Body of Preservation itself?

Anyway, it makes sense that, having 6 Shards and 3 Worlds/Series, and knowing there are 2 (neither more nor less) in Scadriel, there should be 2 in every other World. The only other option would be 3/1, but I can't see 3 sepparate Shards in Warbreaker or Elantris.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 22, 2009, 11:26:30 PM
I don't think it was coincidence on the part of Raoden, neither. In fact I was wondering if Raoden would be the one to be bound with the Dor's Shard, but then I read from BS that the children are going to be the sequel protagonists, so maybe one of them (the Elantrian, I suppose) is the Chosen One.
Too obvious.  Vin was the main protagonist in the Mistborn series, but Sazed was chosen there.  It'll probably be a "supporting" character, but one that becomes fully developed as the plot moves on.
Probably the Chasm was caused by Jaddeth, but I'm thinking that Jaddeth and the Dor come from the same Shard, and that the Dor wis attuned to the land because it is kind of imprisoned, as Ruin was. So, Jaddeth = Dor.
If they're the same Shard, though, what does the second Shard do?
There is no proof of this, but just that it would be original and ironic that the "good" and "bad" guys had the same God, and that it makes as sense as them being 2 Shards, because we have so little information.
I'm more inclined to believe this is true for Warbreaker than Elantris.
Also, Aons don't get something from nothing. They really work as Allomancy, fueling something from burning the Dor.
Am I dreaming or was it written that Allomancy pure gain came from the Body of Preservation itself?
Sazed explains that Allomancy gives more than it takes because its power is fueled by Preservation's body.  He also explains that when Hemalurgy is used, net power is lost because Ruin takes some of it, and Feruchemy is somewhere between the two because net power is neither lost nor gained (this is not necessarily true in all cases, unless the Enhancement metals do something other than "enhance" things in Feruchemy).
Anyway, what I meant was that writing Aons draws from the power of the Dor, which seems to closely parallel Allomancy.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Czanos on March 23, 2009, 01:35:32 AM
Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.

You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call.  You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

What about the Shard Hoid makes use of?

As for deciding which Shard is where, the Dor is one of the Shards we've interacted with directly.
Quote from: [u
Elantris[/u] pg.463 (Hardback)]The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was a think alive' he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent. It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
     Come, it pled. You can finally give up.
     No, Raoden thought. Not yet.


And, to help classifying the Warbreaker Shard, here's the only passage I know of mentioning it.
Quote from: [u
Warbreaker[/u] pg. 719 (v6.1 .pdf)][. . .] But above it all, he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the world had known, a war more deadly--even--than the Manywar.
     He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity.
     To Return.
[. . . ]
     I have seen the Void, he thought. And I came back.

Other possible Shards I can think of at the moment are Jaddeth and Nightblood, but both of those have ties to other Shards, so I can't say for sure which one I think is independent.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Reaves on March 23, 2009, 02:55:57 AM
That post really clears things up for me, thanks Czanos. Sometimes it helps if someone just puts all the facts in front of you :P

-Obviously as you already stated, we've interacted with the Dor Shard. 1/2 interacted directly.

-It seems to me that we have directly interacted with the Warbreaker Shard. It clearly interacted with Lightsong, and the quoted text clearly says it spoke to him. I suppose you could make a case that we are merely seeing its power, but I'm going to say this is the second we've interacted with. 2/2 interacted directly.

-Given what we know so far, Hoid must be using the power of a Shard to travel between planets. Its clearly not a Shard influencing matters, that is for sure. 1/1 power seen.

Unless there is something we are totally missing, that leaves Jaddeth and Nightblood. We have clearly seen Nightblood's power. We've seen what it can do. But, we already know we've seen the power of Hoid's Shard in action. Therefore I think we can cross off Nightblood as a Shard.

That leaves Jaddeth, and influence. Jaddeth's followers have been spreading across the globe, preparing for the war with Arelen. Something has been influencing the Svordish to attack the source of the one Shard we can be sure exists in Elantris; the Dor. In the past I've said that Jaddeth and the Dor are the same thing, but given the evidence I'm not so sure. 1/1 influence seen.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on March 23, 2009, 05:19:11 AM
Some seem to be assuming that Elantris and Warbreaker both must have two Shards on them, like Mistborn. Somehow, I doubt this to be the case. It just may not be a good idea to assume that.

One interesting thing I should mention about all Shard-magics (Meaning Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy, AonDor, Awakening) is that they all have a "focus". That is, the Shards power is focused through something. In Mistborn, the focus is metal. In AonDor, the focus is the symbols. And in Awakening, the focus is actually the words. Just thought I'd like to bring that up :P From this, we can perhaps devise a strategy to decipher which magical effects are directly caused from a Shard's influence, or just the normal magics of the world. For example, the Dor pool isn't really AonDor magic (or any other Dor magic), so it's highly likely--undoubtedly certain--that is linked to a Shard's influence.

I really don't know about Jaddeth being a Shard. I'm going to save judgment on that one until another book is set in Opelon. For me, it doesn't seem likely that Jaddeth is a separate entity. So, right now, I'm going to disagree on that front.

However. Writing that just made me realize something. The Dor, I think we've all agreed, is a Shard of sorts. Yet what we also see in Opelon are the Shu-Keseg, Shu-Domi, and Shu-Dereth religions. If we presume that Domi and Jaddeth are the same entities (I forget what Shu-Keseg called their god), that could be our missing Shard. Certainly we've seen those religions influencing things, but we haven't met an actual Domi/Jaddeth entity as of yet. That could be a fit.

My logic here is that Elantris and the Dor seems inherently separate from those three religions. I gathered from the book that there was a slight schism with Shu-Domi regarding the Elantrians, and the leader of that sect--I apologize, I've forgotten his name--chose to accept the Elantrians. To me this seems like Elantris and those three religions evolved separately, possibly from separate Shards.

What do you think of that idea?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 23, 2009, 05:28:49 PM
Quote
f they're the same Shard, though, what does the second Shard do?
I liked the idea someone stated a few pages ago, saying they could be contrarys/complementarys. He said they could be Life and Rest (because the pool is seen as a place to take Rest, i.e. die).
I think so. Don't know if the Shard whose Power is the Dor is Life, maybe Energy, but I think the pool is Death.
Not the bad Deathlord with zombies, but Real Death, that is, a Force of the Universe. She (I always thought the voice as femenine (I suppose that's because in the book Raoden describes as parent and mother, not father) doesn't want to fill the land with Death, because where there is Life, there's Death, and without Life there will be Nothing, but not Death.
Sort of...

Quote
ne interesting thing I should mention about all Shard-magics (Meaning Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy, AonDor, Awakening) is that they all have a "focus". That is, the Shards power is focused through something. In Mistborn, the focus is metal. In AonDor, the focus is the symbols. And in Awakening, the focus is actually the words.
True, and they also need a fuel.
Fuels are Metal / Preservation's Body (Allomancy), Dor / Energy (AonDor), Own Internal Energy (Feruchemy, ChayShan) and External Sacrifice (Hemalurgy, maybe Dakhor?).
I don't know in which group Awakening fits, because its fuel is Breath, but its external. I see it a bit like Allomancy and Preservation. Leras gave Itself to create sentient beings. Maybe the Warbreaker Shard did the same, and every human has one Breath because it is part of the Shard's spirit. So it would go into the Allomancy / Dor positive gain category. But to do someting with Breath other than creating Lifeless you have to gain Breath from other people, which seems akin to Hemalurgy..........

And one final point:
Does it seem many of we believe the pool in Elantris and the Dor are different Shard's aspects? I mean, they are not aspects from the same Shard.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on March 23, 2009, 07:18:59 PM
I'm actually wondering where Jesker is fitting in all this.  They clearly know about the Dor.  People call it a primitive religion, but they know things about the universe that nobody else seems to have figured out besides the Elantrians.  And it seems to be largely separate from the other religions.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 23, 2009, 07:20:27 PM
I'm pretty sure that your confused over the workings of Aon Dor... If anyone recalls when Raoden was studying it's mechanics it talks about wave length frequencies and alot of physics. Also when he first uses the earthquake slash on Ashe it makes the strongest of the incomplete Aons (Aons before the spirit of Eltantris is repaired) as the pressure was released. My personal belief is that the Aon Dor is allowing energy to flow through a rift and in amounts that are directable, whether this energy comes from a shard somewhere or from a dimension of creation ect. I don't know but it is clearly not related to Alomancy, and drawing corollaries to all of his magic systems is more or less saying an author has one style with no new tricks up his sleeve and if that is the case then why read his books... Aon Dor is drastically different from Scardiel magics and from wherever Warbreaker is... give B.S. some credit... :o

P.S. if you took offense to these comments TOO BAD!!! I mean sorry... :P
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on March 23, 2009, 07:26:32 PM
I'm pretty sure that your confused over the workings of Aon Dor... If anyone recalls when Raoden was studying it's mechanics it talks about wave length frequencies and alot of physics. Also when he first uses the earthquake slash on Ashe it makes the strongest of the incomplete Aons (Aons before the spirit of Eltantris is repaired) as the pressure was released. My personal belief is that the Aon Dor is allowing energy to flow through a rift and in amounts that are directable, whether this energy comes from a shard somewhere or from a dimension of creation ect. I don't know but it is clearly not related to Alomancy, and drawing corollaries to all of his magic systems is more or less saying an author has one style with no new tricks up his sleeve and if that is the case then why read his books... Aon Dor is drastically different from Scardiel magics and from wherever Warbreaker is... give B.S. some credit... :o

P.S. if you took offense to these comments TOO BAD!!! I mean sorry... :P


Well, I agree with this sentiment.  I have made it in more mild forms in the past.

That at least one shard is involved seems certain.  Other than that, I've seen little light shed on the issue.  The main thing I believe for certain is that all the magics in Elantris stem from the Dor, not from some other power.  They behave in different ways, but it seems most logical to assume they are different aspects of the same thing.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on March 23, 2009, 07:45:08 PM
I'm pretty sure that your confused over the workings of Aon Dor... If anyone recalls when Raoden was studying it's mechanics it talks about wave length frequencies and alot of physics. Also when he first uses the earthquake slash on Ashe it makes the strongest of the incomplete Aons (Aons before the spirit of Eltantris is repaired) as the pressure was released. My personal belief is that the Aon Dor is allowing energy to flow through a rift and in amounts that are directable, whether this energy comes from a shard somewhere or from a dimension of creation ect. I don't know but it is clearly not related to Alomancy, and drawing corollaries to all of his magic systems is more or less saying an author has one style with no new tricks up his sleeve and if that is the case then why read his books... Aon Dor is drastically different from Scardiel magics and from wherever Warbreaker is... give B.S. some credit... :o

P.S. if you took offense to these comments TOO BAD!!! I mean sorry... :P


Actually I was speaking with Brandon and he said those things about the focuses--"focus" was his word for it. He explicitly said all Shard magics have a focus, and said that the symbols in AonDor were that focus, and the actual words were the focus in Warbreaker. I see what you're saying, yeah, but those are Brandon's words, not mine :P.

Though when I was speaking to him, it did seem to make sense that the Aons "focused" the power of the Dor.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 23, 2009, 10:52:25 PM
What I personally believe is that all magic systems in Adonalsium's Universe come from the Shards' Energies. They are radically different in interaction and style, in the way they work and what they can do. But the Energy manipulated is the Energy of Creation.
Of course AonDor is radically different from Allomancy. But deep in their mechanics they are all the same: you take fuel and focus and get to create some effects. What these effects are and how you get to create them is different for an Allomancer, Elantrian or Awakener. But the core is the same.
And so, we can guess by their mechanics if there is one, two or more Shards involved in the world. Or that's theory, let's see if we can get it to practice....
So far, the one that confuses me more is Awakening, I don't know about you guys and gals. This one is pretty weird  ???
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Czanos on March 24, 2009, 12:24:12 AM
Okay, so here's a theory. On page 513 of Mistborn: The Hero of Ages, Vin mentions that metal is power, and that is why neither she nor Ruin can observe it. However, all of the Scadrial magic uses metal as it's focus.

So what I wonder is if every Shard's focus corresponds to a real-world source of power. Scadrial focuses on metals, or maybe technology, Elantrian magic focuses on writing and language, and Hallandren magic focuses on words and communication. If this is the case, I have no idea what Lightweaving (Hoid's Shards magic, I assume.) does. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 24, 2009, 04:41:50 PM
Is it possible that the shards bridge the dimensions between creation and the current universe??? I mean the mechanics of the AonDor seem like it to me.

P.S. I know there will be certain amount of similarities to all the shards but acting like they follow the exact rules of Scardiel is asinine the 2 opposite powers and a natural power doesn't work on all the worlds explain Warbreaker if you think it does...

P.S.S. how do "natural" powers come into existence is it because humans on Scardiel are part of preseveration and if thats the case why can't mistborn reverse aging?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 24, 2009, 04:46:46 PM
Just thought of something else...I hope there isn't a blood magic in some unknown shard vampires books have become way too much of a fad...not to mention ruined the myths behind them... :'(
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: SarahG on March 24, 2009, 05:44:29 PM
Just a tip, Champion Kaz - to avoid double-posting, you can look at your previous post and hit the "modify" button.  Please review the forum etiquette guidelines.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on March 24, 2009, 06:27:22 PM
Okay, so here's a theory. On page 513 of Mistborn: The Hero of Ages, Vin mentions that metal is power, and that is why neither she nor Ruin can observe it. However, all of the Scadrial magic uses metal as it's focus.

So what I wonder is if every Shard's focus corresponds to a real-world source of power. Scadrial focuses on metals, or maybe technology, Elantrian magic focuses on writing and language, and Hallandren magic focuses on words and communication. If this is the case, I have no idea what Lightweaving (Hoid's Shards magic, I assume.) does. Any thoughts?

I think it is far more accurate to say that Hallandren magic focuses on color and life.

I mean, the "fuel" is called biochrome, for crying out loud!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 24, 2009, 07:39:30 PM
I understand how to edit my post it was a different topic of discussion so i put it in a different post if you viewed it as inapporpriate well that's your view...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 25, 2009, 03:38:05 AM
Thing is it might be a moderator's view too.  He was trying to help you, really.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 25, 2009, 08:10:02 PM
Is it possible that the shards bridge the dimensions between creation and the current universe??? I mean the mechanics of the AonDor seem like it to me.

P.S. I know there will be certain amount of similarities to all the shards but acting like they follow the exact rules of Scardiel is asinine the 2 opposite powers and a natural power doesn't work on all the worlds explain Warbreaker if you think it does...

P.S.S. how do "natural" powers come into existence is it because humans on Scardiel are part of preseveration and if thats the case why can't mistborn reverse aging?

Well, as I saw it when read one of BS posts regarding that, it seems that there is a Power, the power or energy of Creation itself (I believe this is Adonalsium). This Power of Creation resides in the Shards. And the magic systems are just different methods to channel or focus that power to create the "magic effects". That is the similarity I see in the different worlds and magic systems.
Of course, every world would have different numbers, styles and philophies of magic systems. I believe the three worlds we've seen so far (I'm counting only the "public" ones) are very different to each other, but all have these characteristics: there are Humans in it (although it seems that every species is very different from each other); there is "magic" available to some (some being a number largely over the typical fantasy worlds); and these "magic" comes from one of the Shards. Also, we could see the "focus" and "fuel" as a similarity in each world, but this is something less factual (although "factual" is too strong a word for the theorizing we're up in here....).

I don't think that there are "natural" powers in Scradial or any other of the worlds. I can't find the quote right now, but it is the HoA thread, BS said something like "each magic system is there because every race and people have a different genetic pool".
That is, that in every world there are individuals who can bear different magics, depending on the Shard that created sentient life in that world and the specifics of the individual races in each world. That explains why only Arelenes can have Elantrian magic (as explained, there were people who could use the Dor before Elantris, and those people build Elantris as a giant amplifier), only Terrispeople are Feruchemists and so on.
It seems in Warbreaker everybody has Breath and can use it, but that is much to say right now.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Reaves on March 25, 2009, 09:42:28 PM
Thing is it might be a moderator's view too.  He was trying to help you, really.

I suspect sarah is female :P
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Eleaneth on March 26, 2009, 05:29:57 PM
Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers.  The form of that super fuel is important.  In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal.  In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing.  In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future.  In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation.  (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

I'm curious--if the pool by Elantris is the essence of a shard, what is it capable of beyond releasing Elantrians?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on March 26, 2009, 06:35:14 PM
Probably nothing.  Even if it is the odds of us seeing what else can do are slim to none because EUOL has said that if there is a sequel to Elantris it will not take place in Arelon.  I believe he said it'd take place in Teod. . . I think.  I personally would like a sequel to take place in Fjordell, but that's me.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: SarahG on March 26, 2009, 07:33:30 PM
I suspect sarah is female :P

Oh, no, my secret is out!  (What was your first clue?)   ;)

Sarcasm aside, thanks for the defense, Cosmic.  As you said, I was just trying to help Kaz get acquainted with forum culture.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on March 26, 2009, 08:20:21 PM
Why does everyone take my comments as a personal attack if  wanted to make one it would be insulting someones intelligence or inbreeding ect... it hurts sooo much :'(

P.S. no i'm not that sensitive i was raised by lawyers hence i have no heart but i wasn't trying to attack you sarah...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on March 26, 2009, 08:39:39 PM
Why does everyone take my comments as a personal attack if  wanted to make one it would be insulting someones intelligence or inbreeding ect... it hurts sooo much :'(

P.S. no i'm not that sensitive i was raised by lawyers hence i have no heart but i wasn't trying to attack you sarah...
I don't think they took it as you attacking Sarah.  I think it was that you were blatantly saying "I don't care about the forum etiquette/rules unless I get in trouble."  I think that's what it was taken as.  At least that's how it read to me.

Back on topic though guys.

Alatar - I don't think that Adonalsium is "creation".  I think that creation may be a part of Adonalsium, but not it's main purpose.  You know how scientists are always asking the question about what holds everything together and keeps everything moving?  I think that's what Adonalsium is meant to represent.  Although there are times when it's power is condensed for one reason or another and thus we get shards.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: melbatoast on March 26, 2009, 09:04:45 PM
Alatar - I don't think that Adonalsium is "creation".  I think that creation may be a part of Adonalsium, but not it's main purpose.  You know how scientists are always asking the question about what holds everything together and keeps everything moving?  I think that's what Adonalsium is meant to represent.  Although there are times when it's power is condensed for one reason or another and thus we get shards.[/color]

I agree, I wouldn't call Adonalsium "creation". We know that 2 of the shards together (preservation + ruin) can be used to create. I guess it is hard to know what the whole thing does since we only know what some of the shards are right now. If there are 16 total shards, we are missing a lot of pieces still. Also, were all the shards actually together at one point? The term "shards" implies this. If that is the case, what made all the shards break apart?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 26, 2009, 09:42:47 PM
I have been assuming that Adonalsium was a person or god of some sort.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: melbatoast on March 26, 2009, 11:08:48 PM
The Big Bang Theory for Brandon's Universe:
In the beginning, there was God (Adonalsium). Until one day he exploded.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 26, 2009, 11:36:20 PM
I have been assuming that Adonalsium was a person or god of some sort.

I believe this concept is too simple. Maybe not "a god" but "the GOD", that's why I named it Creation, not the force actually used to Create, but the Universe itself, should it be conscious. You know, something BIG.

The Big Bang Theory for Brandon's Universe:
In the beginning, there was God (Adonalsium). Until one day he exploded.

 :) :D ;D
That's it.
also, as you said in the previous post, I agree if they are Shards, they should have been united before.

And, why is it that we have Humanity in every Shard world? Maybe the biblic conception "at his own image"? I believe BS to have one explanation for that, because he is so orderly....
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Reaves on March 27, 2009, 01:09:04 AM
I suspect sarah is female :P

Oh, no, my secret is out!  (What was your first clue?)   ;)

Wh- what? Don't make fun of me, make fun of him, lol :P
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 27, 2009, 02:56:39 AM
It's possible Adonalsium was not the god of the entire universe but just of a small section of it where Brandon's planets are. If we're thinking there are only 16 shards, and two of them ended up on the same planet (and Hoid is hopping between Shard worlds), it's possible the shards are spread over a relatively small astronomical area. If that's the case, it might be because that's the area that was Adonalsium's domain.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on March 27, 2009, 03:15:38 AM
It's possible Adonalsium was not the god of the entire universe but just of a small section of it where Brandon's planets are. If we're thinking there are only 16 shards, and two of them ended up on the same planet (and Hoid is hopping between Shard worlds), it's possible the shards are spread over a relatively small astronomical area. If that's the case, it might be because that's the area that was Adonalsium's domain.

Going off that thought, Ookla, even if Adonalsium's domain was a single galaxy, that's still a vastly huge area compared to what we currently experience. And a single galaxy is tiny compared with the universe. Adonalsium need not be God of the entire universe (as the universe is unfathomably vast), but could control a region so large from the perspective of a single planet, he may as well be considered a God.

Also, there doesn't have to be just 16 Shards. I thought 16 was Preservation's number, not necessarily anything that we could apply to all Shards. Now, there could be 16 Shards, but I don't know yet. We shall see.

I would think that Adonalsium would have a conscious aspect to it, considering how important a conscious aspect is to a Shard.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: douglas on March 27, 2009, 04:13:22 AM
Also, there doesn't have to be just 16 Shards. I thought 16 was Preservation's number, not necessarily anything that we could apply to all Shards. Now, there could be 16 Shards, but I don't know yet. We shall see.
I'm pretty sure one of Sazed's chapter headings says something about the number 16 being fundamental to a lot more than just Preservation and Ruin.

Edit: Found it.  Chapter 71.
Quote
As for the other aspects of the number . . . well, even I am still investigating that.  Suffice it to say that it has great ramifications regarding how the world, and the universe itself, works.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on March 27, 2009, 04:21:09 AM
It's quite possible. I'll check my copy of Hero of Ages for a confirmation on that. I'd like to get that chapter heading explicitly quoted here anyways. It would be better for the hypotheses :D
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: douglas on March 27, 2009, 04:27:50 AM
Bah, should have checked for a new post before editing.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on March 27, 2009, 04:31:47 AM
Here is the entire quote.  From Chapter 71 epigraph.

Quote from: Sazed
There is something special about the number sixteen.  For one thing, it was Preservation's sign to mankind.

Preservation knew, even before he imprisoned Ruin, that he wouldn't be able to communicate with humankind once he diminished himself.  And so, he left clues - clues that couldn't be altered by Ruin.  Clues that related back to the fundamental laws of the universe.  The number was meant to be proof that something unnatural was happening, and that there was help to be found.

It may have taken us long to figure this out, but when we eventually did understand the clue - late though it was - it provided a much-needed boos.

As for the other aspects of the number . . . well, even I am still investigating that.  Suffice it to tsay that it has great ramifications regarding how the world, and the universe itself, works.

So it is more important than just in the Hamland.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on March 27, 2009, 05:34:14 AM
Thanks miyabi. That definitely hints at it being extremely fundamental.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 27, 2009, 09:23:12 AM
I see. Point taken.
So maybe there are 16 entites like Adonalsium, and... who knows where it may end? Maybe there are 16 universes, and so on..........  :-X
I hope BS will stop at Adonalsium, or we can get dizzy  8)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on March 27, 2009, 04:30:45 PM
I actually postulated sixteen shards some time ago.

Then I thought "Why not 16 squared?  256 shards?  Or how about 16^16, which is about 1.84x10^19?"

So while I still think sixteen shards makes the most sense, I'm not about to restrict myself to that idea.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on March 27, 2009, 10:07:57 PM
Thing is it might be a moderator's view too.  He was trying to help you, really.

I suspect sarah is female :P
:o Ahahahahahaha I forgot to look at who was posting what!  And I can't pretend it was a typo because I capitalized the "H"!

Back on the Shards, though.  Is it possible that some of the Shards themselves split into lesser Shards or "Slivers"?  Meh, I guess 16 is a big enough number to make a good number of books with.

One question to ask, I guess, is how the number 16 ties in with what we've observed about the magic systems in Elantris and Warbreaker.  Yeah....I can't think of anything right now.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 27, 2009, 10:32:06 PM


Back on the Shards, though.  Is it possible that some of the Shards themselves split into lesser Shards or "Slivers"?  Meh, I guess 16 is a big enough number to make a good number of books with.

One question to ask, I guess, is how the number 16 ties in with what we've observed about the magic systems in Elantris and Warbreaker.  Yeah....I can't think of anything right now.

Maybe there are 16 tiers in Awakening, but surely there are more than 16 Aons, although maybe there are only 16 basic lines to draw Aons.

Anyway, I liked that word, "Slivers". Don't you remember having seen it written somewhere? Oh, yeah, about hundreds of times in Mistborn: Final Empire.
So, that's kind of a thought.  ???
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: melbatoast on March 28, 2009, 02:07:45 AM
Back on the Shards, though.  Is it possible that some of the Shards themselves split into lesser Shards or "Slivers"? 

No, not slivers! We want no possibility of Brandon dying before he finishes writing about all 16 shards and their 16 slivers.

Anyway, I liked that word, "Slivers". Don't you remember having seen it written somewhere? Oh, yeah, about hundreds of times in Mistborn: Final Empire.
So, that's kind of a thought.  ???

Well, the Lord Ruler may have known some things about the cosmology of the universe since he did use the power in the well of ascension. Sazed appears to understand a lot, although he does have two shards. I guess "sliver of infinity" actually makes sense.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Czanos on March 28, 2009, 06:59:29 AM
Perhaps Sliver or Sliver of Infinity is a term used to describe one who has been bound to a Shard or used it's power.

That would make Hoid, Kelsier, Vin, and all the actual Shards Slivers as well.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Alatar on March 28, 2009, 09:15:24 AM
I'm thinking of another use for Sliver.
As we know, it takes a Shard to share something of Itself to create sentient life. So, why couldn't every Human in the series be a Sliver of Infinity?
Maybe it was something ironic or subtle on TLR side, because it was true to call him Sliver of Infinity (read Adonalsium) and it was true for everyone, but was just so cool that he took it for himself  8)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Reaves on March 28, 2009, 03:15:31 PM
I always thought the title Sliver of Infinity was a reference to the fact that he had touched godhood at the well of ascension. He had the power of a god -- and a portion of the power that created the universe. (Adonalsium) In his own theology the Lord Ruler called himself a god -- but, of course, he was only pretending.

Of course Alatar in Mormon theology (correct me if im wrong) all humans are gods, or at least hold the potential to be one. So you could be right too.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on March 28, 2009, 04:14:42 PM
I have a feeling that one of the purposes of a second Mistborn trilogy will be that once we've gotten more books and seen more of Adonalsium and Hoid, it will give us a chance to see them again, and maybe get some more hints or even explanations from Sazed.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 01, 2009, 12:09:05 AM
On that note, miyabi, I'm really excited for Way of Kings. Ten books, ten magic systems..... ten shards?

Reaves, you are correct, Mormon doctrine holds that all human beings have the potential to become gods. However, it doesn't say that we are. Because we aren't. But we could be. Eventually.

Perhaps Sliver or Sliver of Infinity is a term used to describe one who has been bound to a Shard or used it's power.

That would make Hoid, Kelsier, Vin, and all the actual Shards Slivers as well.

Woah, where'd Kelsier come from? Has he been bound to a shard/used its power that I'm not aware of? Or am I being really stupid and forgetting something?

Anyway, another thing that has been intriguing me is whether or not each individual shard has its own aspect. Ruin and Preservation both did, and if the others are all pieces of the same thing (which one would assume...) then it makes sense that they all inherit a single aspect of the overall personality of the entity which the shards all came from. So then, what else would they be?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on April 01, 2009, 12:34:12 AM
I can see Hoid and Vin and Sazed being shards, but Kel?? Not seeing that.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on April 01, 2009, 01:29:59 AM
For those of you protesting Kell having been part of a shard, Brandon stated in the Q&A that between Leras' death and Vin's ascension, Kelsier took some degree of control over Preservation's power.  Not as much as Vin, I would guess, but enough that he was able to get through to Spook a couple of times.

Reread Spook's POV, especially during the fire.  The hints are pretty clear once you know what you're looking for.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on April 01, 2009, 01:50:14 AM
That wasn't Kel. . . that was Ruin.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Reaves on April 01, 2009, 02:17:35 AM
Most of them were Ruin, but there was one, maybe two that looked like Kell. And I do definitely remember Brandon mentioning that.
Also, I'm not sure but didn't Spook hear Kell's voice after the spike had been removed?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: melbatoast on April 01, 2009, 02:39:04 AM
Yes, Kel spoke to Spook twice. Which I guess would mean that he was using some aspect of Preservation.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on April 01, 2009, 05:58:57 PM
That wasn't Kel. . . that was Ruin.

Well, of course it mostly was Ruin masquerading as Kell, in fact.  That's quite obvious.

There are a couple of times, though, especially after he removed the spike, where he still gets hints of a voice telling him what to do.  Those hints are much less clear than Ruin, and when he follows them, things work out much, much better for all involved.  Except for Ruin, of course.

The most important bit, and easily the clearest, is when Kell (really Kell) speaks to him in a dream after he's been so badly burned.  That's the reason he sends off the letter warning about how metal taints a person, which gets found by Marsh, who uses it to free Vin so she can absorb the mists.  So this plot point is actually a key part of the whole story.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on April 02, 2009, 02:23:22 AM
I don't remember where, but somewhere Brandon pretty explicitly stated that when Preservation's "owner" died, Kelsier was waiting at the edge of whatever afterlife-world he was in, ready to seize that power for himself for a bit.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: echigo109 on April 05, 2009, 07:17:21 PM
i think that brandon won't limit himself to 16 shards. i mean on one planet there are two shards. each shard probabaly has slivers of itself. and who ever metioned that the way of kings will have ten different shards and magic systems, i think there will be 2-5 magic systems in the entire series and 1-4 shards.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on April 05, 2009, 07:57:25 PM
i think that brandon won't limit himself to 16 shards. i mean on one planet there are two shards. each shard probabaly has slivers of itself. and who ever metioned that the way of kings will have ten different shards and magic systems, i think there will be 2-5 magic systems in the entire series and 1-4 shards.
Brandon himself has stated there will be 10 magic systems.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Ogge on April 06, 2009, 11:47:00 AM
interesting theory.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on April 08, 2009, 08:01:52 PM
I'll bet whatever Shard(s) govern(s) the world of Warbreaker is(are) colorblind, the way Leras and Ati were unable to perceive metal.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on April 09, 2009, 02:16:44 AM
I think that would be . . . too overly consistent.  That would go farther than putting them in the same universe and making them more the same book with different people in a different place.  I just don't think I see that happening.  I won't lie, I would be kinda disappointed if it did happen.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on April 09, 2009, 08:35:13 PM
Hm, you're right.  I need to think these things through before I go posting random stuff.  :P
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Rrikor on April 09, 2009, 09:20:12 PM
Random stuff is fine :D.  I would rather that the vision thing was not a similarity between all the shards.  I also dint know how that would work in with elantris as there is no physical object involved.  It does kind of make sense for warbreaker though.   We see what happens when you have a ton of breaths and it becomes hard to see the person wielding them due to the aura of color they put off.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Eleaneth on April 15, 2009, 07:33:24 PM
The reason Leras and Ati couldn't look directly at metal was because it had so much power in it, their power. I would speculate that if they'd wanted to, they could have trained themselves to perceive metal, but then they would've been blind to everything else. (Like a Steel Inquisitor, perhaps?)

I'd imagine that it depends on the nature of the power. For example, a Color shard might be unable to look directly at the God King, because he radiated too much power, but I doubt it. The power of metal was more raw and untamed. Very physical. The power of color was more enhancing, more subtle. More spiritual.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on April 30, 2009, 01:48:40 AM
Did anyone read the Alternate ending for Mistborn? We now know where Ruin's pool is......

Edit- I also saw this in WoA. Just a little bit of Preservation working his magic.
Quote
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword... Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Close in tight as fast as possible, and kill quickly.

Edit- Didn't want to double post
I was looking through the annotations when I found this:
Quote
I think the peace offered by this pool is a supernatural force. It has something to do with the physical form of the Elantrians.
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/86/Elantris-Chapter-61-1
I just think this helps reaffirm that the shard that is 'in charge' of Elantrians is also the pool.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Stu on June 20, 2009, 07:47:58 PM
POSSIBLE SPOILERS

What if the Shards in Warbreaker are Kuth and Huth.  At first I had thought that they were people, but in the epilogue Vasher states, "Ever heard of Kuth and Huth?", he asked.  "Sure," she said.  "They were your main rivals in the Manywar."  "Somebody's trying to restore them," he said.  pg 587.  What makes me think that they might be shards is that Vasher says that someone's trying to restore them, as apposed to trying to resurect them.  What if they had power over the word previously, but Vasher somehow changed what/who had power during the Manywar.  Plus the names seem kind of out of place with the rest of the book's character's names.

I don't know, it's just a thought.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on June 21, 2009, 01:31:57 AM
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that they were countries, not gods. When Vasher said 'restore' I'm pretty sure he meant trying to bring back into power by raising armies (raising Lifeless, awakening siege weapons, etc.)

I think that if anyone is a shard, it's Austre.
Quote
He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and
comforting, offering him an opportunity.
pg 563

So whoever that voice is (my guess is Austre) is a shard. A shard that is experienced enough to place a soul back into a body, even if it does cost a breath a week.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on June 21, 2009, 01:36:12 AM
When I talked to Brandon at the Signing tonight, he mentioned that the pool in Elantris is indeed very much like the Well of Ascension. So I don't know whether that helps ore harms theories, but there you go.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: echigo109 on June 22, 2009, 07:42:13 PM
i dont think that we can figure it out without more information from brandon
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on July 13, 2009, 09:53:46 PM
And now we have it! I'll post all the info from the Barnes & Nobles here.....

Quote
I know you already said that there are four shards outside of Ati and Leras in your other books. Could you tell us the numbers per book? Is just a standard two per book? Or do some have more than others?

Some world have more than others.  You have seen the effects, influences, and work of four other Shards.  One Shard, however, was no longer on the world by the time the story was told there. 
 

I know that we've "interacted with two directly" (the pool in Elantris, and The Voice that called Lightsong back to life) that we've "seen it's power" (Dahkhor??) and another that we've seen their infulence (I have no idea on this one, though I think it might be whatever pointed out Aon Rao in Elantris to Raoden)
 
Nice guesses on most of those.  You’ve got some things right.  You’ve got some things wrong. The only thing I'll confirm (and I don’t think I’ve said this before)  is that The Voice is, indeed, one of the Shards of Adonalsium.  (Endowment is that Shard’s true name, by the way.)

So we now have Ati, Leras, and Endowment.  "Seen it's power" is probably the one that is no longer on the world. Maybe it's the Dor? There doesn't seem to be anyone guiding it. The "interaction" is Endowment and the Pool. And perhaps Hoid for "seen it's influence". Someone seemed to mention Midus being connected with a shard.

Any other ideas?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 13, 2009, 10:26:23 PM
I tend to agree that the Dor is a good candidate for a shard that is no longer on the world. Although if that shard is no longer on the world, could they still use it's powers? If not, then that effectively kills that theory.

I was also thinking that the Chasm in Elantris might have actually been one of the Other Shards trying to sabotage the Dor. Or rather, it's followers. Like Ruin and Preservation, Elantris Style.
 
edit: Oooh, I just had an even better idea! What if the shard that we've only seen the effects of is related to Hoid? I seem to remember Ook or someone saying something along the lines of Hoid being bound to a shard. Though that could be wrong. In that case, what if his shard allows him to planet hop? We wouldn't have seen the shard directly, just Hoid, and we would have seen its effects.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 13, 2009, 11:49:27 PM
I just thought I'd put in my two cents regarding the Shards we have met or seen evidence of (I'm assuming that Brandon was only speaking of the books we had access to at the time, Elantris, Mistborn, and Warbreaker):

The first two need no explanation.
1. Preservation
2. Ruin

3. The Dor
I feel that the Dor is one of the four Shards we have directly interacted with, the Pool talking to Raoden and all.

4. Hoid
Yes, I think Hoid is a Shard in the same way that Vin was a Shard.  Vin and Sazed made no mention of a space ship while they were in godmode, and with their sensitivity to metal, they would have seen one if one was in the solar system.  In the absence of a spaceship, Shardpower is the only thing I can think of to get Hoid from world to world.

Now for the last two.
5. Endowment
The Voice in Warbreaker.  We never actually interacted with it, just Lightsong remembering being offered a way back.  The Returned are definitely evidence of  the Shard's power/influence.

The last one is harder since Brandon Sanderson said the last one was no longer on the world by the time the story got told.  The set up between Ruin and Preservation doesn't work if a third Shard was hanging around before Vin was born.  Another Shard could have caused the Chasm in Elantris, but Occam's Razor makes me want to think it was just normal seismic activity.  Warbreaker, however is intriguing.  The Idris Royal Family traces its lineage back to the first Returned, this is interesting, why would Endowment decide to suddenly start calling back returned all over the world just because some people had crossed a body of water?  I think that the Returned started Returning soon after Endowment arrived on the Warbreaker world.  But that leaves a question: how did humans get there?  The chances of humans independently evolving on so many different worlds are so low as to be absurd, they had to have been put on all of the worlds by the various Shards.  Unless humans started out on the Warbreaker world, I think Shard #6 is whoever put humans there.  Which would be the influence that we see.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on July 14, 2009, 02:50:17 AM
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard.  It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 14, 2009, 03:06:26 AM
Is there anything in the way anyone describes the pool that may give us a hint as to that shard's name? (An abstract concept like the three shard names we know so far.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 03:13:38 AM
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard.  It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.

You're conflating the power with the person, just because the Dor's power is straining to be used doesn't mean the person won't want to end the agony of a Hoed, or formerly Hoed, Elantrian.  Besides, the Pool struck me as very similar to the Well of Ascension (Preservation's Pool) and the Black Pool (presumably Ruin's) that Alendi saw.  With this I would conclude that the Pool near Elantris was the Dor's body (as the WoA was Preservation's), and the voice Raoden heard in the Pool was the Dor's voice.  



Ookla, I don't see why there should be.  Alendi's Diary has reliability issues, but I could certainly check the descriptions of the Well and the Pool to see.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on July 14, 2009, 03:48:15 AM
Yes, I know that the power and person are different, but I think that if Preservation's Power was 'clogged up' he would convince whoever entered his pool to use some of the Lerasium.  I think that the same would apply to the Pool. But who knows? They may very well be the same power.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 03:59:54 AM
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard.  It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.

You're conflating the power with the person, just because the Dor's power is straining to be used doesn't mean the person won't want to end the agony of a Hoed, or formerly Hoed, Elantrian.  Besides, the Pool struck me as very similar to the Well of Ascension (Preservation's Pool) and the Black Pool (presumably Ruin's) that Alendi saw.  With this I would conclude that the Pool near Elantris was the Dor's body (as the WoA was Preservation's), and the voice Raoden heard in the Pool was the Dor's voice.  

Ookla, I don't see why there should be.  Alendi's Diary has reliability issues, but I could certainly check the descriptions of the Well and the Pool to see.

This is not entirely accurate. Lerasium and atium are, respectively, Preservation and Ruin's "bodies". Wasn't the Well of Ascension part of Preservation's Cognitive part? I seem to remember something like that.

Also, if Ruin, Preservation, and Endowment are any basis, whatever Shard(s) in Elantris would have a similar abstract concept.

I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard.  It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.

Perhaps "Tranquility"? That's the best I can think of thus far, having not read Elantris in a long time. A Shard wanting peace and harmony like that would probably be immensely passive in its magic. Maybe.

There are other possibilities for which four Shards we are missing. I'm going to start a long-winded post on the subject right now :D
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 04:09:16 AM
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard.  It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.

You're conflating the power with the person, just because the Dor's power is straining to be used doesn't mean the person won't want to end the agony of a Hoed, or formerly Hoed, Elantrian.  Besides, the Pool struck me as very similar to the Well of Ascension (Preservation's Pool) and the Black Pool (presumably Ruin's) that Alendi saw.  With this I would conclude that the Pool near Elantris was the Dor's body (as the WoA was Preservation's), and the voice Raoden heard in the Pool was the Dor's voice.  

Ookla, I don't see why there should be.  Alendi's Diary has reliability issues, but I could certainly check the descriptions of the Well and the Pool to see.

This is not entirely accurate. Lerasium and atium are, respectively, Preservation and Ruin's "bodies". Wasn't the Well of Ascension part of Preservation's Cognitive part? I seem to remember something like that.

Also, if Ruin, Preservation, and Endowment are any basis, whatever Shard(s) in Elantris would have a similar abstract concept.

I recall Brandon saying in the Offical Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread that the Mist, the Well, and Lerasium were all different forms of Preservation's power.

I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard.  It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.

Perhaps "Tranquility"? That's the best I can think of thus far, having not read Elantris in a long time. A Shard wanting peace and harmony like that would probably be immensely passive in its magic. Maybe.

Maybe, AonDor doesn't seem all that tranquil though.

There are other possibilities for which four Shards we are missing. I'm going to start a long-winded post on the subject right now :D

I'd be glad to hear it.  I'm also going to probably attack the parts were it differs from mine.  :D

Edit: Also, feel free to attack mine as well.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 04:25:55 AM
I don't think that the Dor and the Pool are the same thing, though you may be right about the Warbreaker shard.  It seems that the Dor is just an energy with nothing guiding it any more, and if something was guiding the Dor, they would want it released. The Pool wanted to let Raoden relax, let him die in peace, but he refused because he saw a way to bring back Elantris.

You're conflating the power with the person, just because the Dor's power is straining to be used doesn't mean the person won't want to end the agony of a Hoed, or formerly Hoed, Elantrian.  Besides, the Pool struck me as very similar to the Well of Ascension (Preservation's Pool) and the Black Pool (presumably Ruin's) that Alendi saw.  With this I would conclude that the Pool near Elantris was the Dor's body (as the WoA was Preservation's), and the voice Raoden heard in the Pool was the Dor's voice.  

Ookla, I don't see why there should be.  Alendi's Diary has reliability issues, but I could certainly check the descriptions of the Well and the Pool to see.

This is not entirely accurate. Lerasium and atium are, respectively, Preservation and Ruin's "bodies". Wasn't the Well of Ascension part of Preservation's Cognitive part? I seem to remember something like that.

Also, if Ruin, Preservation, and Endowment are any basis, whatever Shard(s) in Elantris would have a similar abstract concept.

I recall Brandon saying in the Offical Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread that the Mist, the Well, and Lerasium were all different forms of Preservation's power.

Yes. Well, I'm looking through the MB3 spoiler thread, and here's what Brandon said:

Quote
The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself.  Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them.  These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used.  It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

The "body", Lerasium, would be Physical. Since Preservation gave up some his cognitive power, the Well of Ascension would be the Cognitive Realm. I'd imagine the mists are the Spiritual part.

There are other possibilities for which four Shards we are missing. I'm going to start a long-winded post on the subject right now :D

No, actually. Your post is very well thought-out, but I have a couple of possibilities, which as you will see, have multiple possibilities themselves.
I'd be glad to hear it.  I'm also going to probably attack the parts were it differs from mine.  :D
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 04:36:10 AM
Whereas Brandon also writes the following:

Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

The other lake in Alendi's bumps?

Spook gets repaired, does Cett get his legs?

Was there ever anything to Reen's obsidian?

2) A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two.  The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground.  (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation.  You've also seen one other manifestation like this....)

That has to be the Pool in Elantris.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 04:44:06 AM
Oh, definitely. I thought that was something that was common knowledge on the forum :P
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: bookWorm on July 14, 2009, 04:49:21 AM
Another possibility for the shard that has left is "Jaddeth." He is said to be sleeping now, but his could be the power that the monks use.  Of course the future series in Elantris is about his followers proclaiming that he is coming back, so unless they found out how to access his power as Vin or Sazed did, then him coming back means that he is still around.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 04:53:58 AM
But the way Brandon worded it implied that the Pool held the Dor's Consciousness.  Which mean the voice pretty much has to be the Dor.

Edit: this post is a response to Chaos, not bookWorm
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 05:06:59 AM
But the way Brandon worded it implied that the Pool held the Dor's Consciousness.  Which mean the voice pretty much has to be the Dor.

Edit: this post is a response to Chaos, not bookWorm

I'm asking a friend right now to look at the part where Raoden goes into the pool, but if anyone has Elantris nearby, could you give me some quotes to go by? :P

Another possibility for the shard that has left is "Jaddeth." He is said to be sleeping now, but his could be the power that the monks use.  Of course the future series in Elantris is about his followers proclaiming that he is coming back, so unless they found out how to access his power as Vin or Sazed did, then him coming back means that he is still around.

I definitely agree. I'm writing something more extensive about it right now :P
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on July 14, 2009, 05:13:34 AM
Here's the quote from Elantris-
Quote
The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was alive, he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent.It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
 Come, it pled You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.

I am pretty sure that the Pool is a shard, I just don't think it is connected with the Dor. There is very little passive about Dor.

About Endowment. I think that the reason that it took so long for the first Returned is because it takes a long time to learn how to make Returned (which is why Sazed wasn't able to revive Vin and Elend).

About the realms. I think that Shards have a physical, cognitive, and the spiritual. The physical is the pool, or mists, or colored smoke. It ties them to a world. The cognitive is the intellect behind the shard (Vin, Leras, Ati, Sazed, etc.) I think that the spiritual is the power of creation powering them (I seem to remember Brandon using Power of Creation in explaining how allomancy works).  

But these things can fail. For instance, when Vin and Ati fell, it was only the cognitive force behind the Shards that fell, which is why Sazed was able to embrace the 'smoke', and become the Cognitive force for the Spiritual and Physical forces.

I think what happened in Elantris is that the Dor-Shard fell (maybe by making humanity?), but there was no one to become the new Cognitive force.  So the Physical stayed (all of Opelon maybe?), and so did the Spiritual (the Dor).

But all of these are guesses at guesses.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 05:18:26 AM
Here's the quote from Elantris-
Quote
The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was alive, he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent.It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
 Come, it pled You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.

I am pretty sure that the Pool is a shard, I just don't think it is connected with the Dor. There is very little passive about Dor.

About Endowment. I think that the reason that it took so long for the first Returned is because it takes a long time to learn how to make Returned (which is why Sazed wasn't able to revive Vin and Elend).

Many thanks for the quote.

That is an extremely likely explanation for Endowment. I just looked in the MB3 spoiler thread, and someone asked if Vin and Elend could reappear in later Mistborn series. Brandon responded with "RAFO. It's too much of a spoiler for other plotlines" (not a direct quote, but that's the general idea). Your Endowment theory makes sense.

And also, Zas, I'm finally participating in the theories again. Happy? :P
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 05:46:53 AM
I still think the Pool was the Dor,  in the same way the WoA was Preservation.  Occam's Razor, we have a Shard (Dor) and a Shard Pool (The Pool), no other Shards or Shard Pools were introduced, so they probably go together.

Also, regarding Endowment, when was the Breath magic system discovered?  Right along with the First Returned!  Wouldn't the magic have already been known if Endowment had been hanging around, like Feruchemy and Hemalurgy (partially at least) were known in Alendi's time?  No, I think it's more likely that Endowment showed up on the Warbreaker world (do we have a name for it?) not long before the First Returned well, Returned.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 06:02:24 AM
I agree, the Pool is linked to the Dor. Now, more importantly, how is it linked to the Dor.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 06:08:05 AM
I agree, the Pool is linked to the Dor. Now, more importantly, how is it linked to the Dor.

Occam's razor would indicate that the Pool is the Dor's Shard Pool.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 06:20:18 AM
Does anyone else think the pool shard might be Domi? Shu-Korath is based on love, and that part about the pool being like a parent's arms sounds like love to me.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 06:25:24 AM
I agree, the Pool is linked to the Dor. Now, more importantly, how is it linked to the Dor.

Occam's razor would indicate that the Pool is the Dor's Shard Pool.

I meant more in the sense that "What does the Dor's Shard pool do, in respect to its Shard?"

Does anyone else think the pool shard might be Domi? Shu-Korath is based on love, and that part about the pool being like a parent's arms sounds like love to me.

I'm exploring that possibility right now in my very extensive post I'm writing. It's 1500 words thus far.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 06:31:00 AM
When can we expect you to post?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: bookWorm on July 14, 2009, 06:31:55 AM
I think that it is also very important to remember a previous theory from this board about Endowment. The Tears of Hallendren are very similar to Atium. They can only grow in that place, have an integral part in the magic system and provide the economy that Hallendren rests on. The proximity to the tears and their dyes could also affect Endowments ability to return people.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 06:39:00 AM
I think that it is also very important to remember a previous theory from this board about Endowment. The Tears of Hallendren are very similar to Atium. They can only grow in that place, have an integral part in the magic system and provide the economy that Hallendren rests on. The proximity to the tears and their dyes could also affect Endowments ability to return people.

Wait, where does it say the Tears of Hallendren are important to the Breath magic system?  I can only recall them being used as dyes.  And we have reports of Endowment returning people all over the world after it started to happen.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 06:41:31 AM
I remember those flowers have a name, but I can't remember what it is right now.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 06:56:57 AM
Tears of Edgli. I'm not sure that's the right spelling, but it starts with an "E" and sounds like something close to it! ;)

Certainly, Awakening requires Color on some level to work, so Endowment would want color so people could use its magic.

When can we expect you to post?

As soon as I'm done writing it! I'm known to be awfully wordy. The post is basically me "thinking aloud" about the Shards and their logic.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 07:03:32 AM
So then would that mean that the name of the consciousness behind Endowment is Edgli? I'm looking at it in reference to Ati/Atium and Leras/Lerasium. If so, where did the name Austre come from? Are there 2 different shards, but we only see one?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 14, 2009, 07:04:36 AM
"Release" could be the name of the shard that's connected to the pool. The name fits with the other Shard names. "Dor" doesn't fit with the other names.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 07:16:30 AM
I figured maybe the shards on Opelon were Love and Obedience or something similar because the two gods we hear about in Elantris rely on love and obedience respectively.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 07:22:45 AM
"Release" could be the name of the shard that's connected to the pool. The name fits with the other Shard names. "Dor" doesn't fit with the other names.

I like it. The Dor does indeed release energy. Which sort of kills what I thought was the most poignant part of my 2500 word rant, but hey, I'll post it anyways.

--------------------

I hereby cue a drum roll! *drum roll* Thank you. You've all waited. You've all held your breath (maybe even your Breaths, in which case, I'll take them any time...). One has even asked me to take part in these discussions! Others have prayed that this day would never come, but alas, it has arrived at last. It is time for yet another Chaos Rant, the likes of which has not been since the pre-Hero of Ages day.

But enough of my drama, you want an extensively wordy theory, am I right? I've held off on really making a strong impression on this thread and the Hoid one until we have more information. We now have more information, so I feel like ranting.

Lo and behold, I unveil my Shards of Adonalsium theory. Theories, actually.

Since we're talking about the Shards other than Ruin and Preservation, I thought I'd post this again, just so we're all on the same page. That, and I wanted it as a reference:

Quote
Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.
Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.

Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.

...Nightblood...

Ookla, I'm going to be tight lipped on this, as I don't want to give things away for future books.  But I'll tell you this:

You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call.  You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power. 
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

(This is the exact quote from the MB3 Spoiler Thread)

Two direct interactions, one "tough call" that we have seen its power, and the last one which we have seen its influence. I'm going to assign these numbers, because I'm lazy that way. The two direct interactions are #1 and #2, respectively. The tough call is #3, and the influence one #4.

#1 is easy, thankfully! Endowment. By the way, Peter, I think Brandon is an evil genius for a Shard with this name. "Endowment" lends itself perfectly for a world where you are endowing (Awakening) things to life.

The others are much more challenging. The likely candidates: Hoid, the Dor, and Domi/Jaddeth. Let's get crackin'!

There are various possibilities of where each of these Shards go, whether they are 2, 3, or 4. They depend on a number of factors.

Does Brandon consider Hoid one of those four Shards he mentioned?

Tage said that it would be helpful to be immortal to hop around worlds like Hoid does. When you're bound to a Shard, that sort of implies immortality. One of Brandon's friends also said (perhaps Tage) that Hoid was bound to a Shard, last he knew.

I don't have any problem with Hoid holding a Shard. You may ask, "But Chaos, Hoid isn't very single-minded like Ruin, Preservation, or Endowment appear to be! I mean, he still has a name, not an abstract concept as his soul!" Right you are, voices inside my head! Perhaps it is a matter of how long one is bound to a given Shard, and a person begins to attune with the force so well that he/she becomes the Shard. Or maybe not--I sure as heck don't know how the Shards were created. I have a feeling this theory is on the right track, though. Compared with the original Shards, Midus (or is it Midius? I don't remember the Liar prologue) held onto his Shard a rather short time. He could retain his consciousness fairly effectively.

Again, maybe not. But if Hoid does hold a Shard, wouldn't it count to the Four? Likewise, we've talked to Hoid. Quite directly. If Brandon considers Hoid one of those four, and he holds a Shard, then Hoid is #2. We've talked to him. That's pretty direct.

Other Warbreaker Shards

Well, we have Endowment on Warbreaker's planet. There could be other Shards involved here, but Endowment fits so perfectly into Awakening, I can't think of any other Shards which would exist on its world. At least, not one which still exists during the events of Warbreaker.

(Random tangential theory time: Endowment was involved--in some way--to Nightblood's creation. Once, we are in Vasher's viewpoint, and he thinks about Nightblood's creation, "Even with a thousand Breaths, it shouldn't have been possible". Maybe Endowment made it possible. Or maybe Shashara was able to utilize Endowment's power directly...)

Still, we don't know the circumstances of the Warbreaker planet's creation. Other Shards could be involved, which would qualify it for #4. As it is, I have no evidence to believe this is true yet. We shall see.

The Shard that's gone

little_wilson asked this very interesting question to Brandon on the B&N Q&A, which got an enigmatic, but informative answer:

Quote
Q: I know you already said that there are four shards outside of Ati and Leras in your other books. Could you tell us the numbers per book? Is just a standard two per book? Or do some have more than others?

A: Some world have more than others.  You have seen the effects, influences, and work of four other Shards.  One Shard, however, was no longer on the world by the time the story was told there.

One Shard left the world it was on. Cool. Now it's up to us to figure out which one left (or at least, which world it left). If there are other Warbreaker Shards, as stated above, that would be an obvious candidate. There's no reason to believe that there are other Warbreaker Shards, especially when Opelon (since we don't know the planet name yet, I'm just going to refer to it as Opelon) has such rich--yet mostly unexplored--mythologies. With this current knowledge, I'm going to bet for a 2-2-1 Shard ratio. If Hoid counts, then he's one which is floating around. Two for Elantris, two for Mistborn, and one for Warbreaker.

Seems logical that #4 is the Shard that left. It has done some influencing, but it left the world before the story was told, therefore we've never met it directly.

How much of a "tough call" is #3?

This is a huge factor, as it directly relates to whether the Dor/Pool is #2, or #3. Those are the two possibilities I see for it now. If Hoid is out, then the Dor definitely needs to be #2. Now, a Shard spoke to Raoden. One would automatically say that this Shard is #2, because that's direct interaction. Yet... the words "tough call" make the line seem blurry.

For instance, we've seen many instances of the Dor's power (obviously) through Aons, Dahkor, and ChayShan. We have not, however, met the Shard directly, with exception of the Pool. It could be #3, but it's a very huge "maybe".

Final factor.

Are the Dor and the Pool the same Shard?

I'm tempted to say yes. I want to say yes. The answer is possibly no, however. If the answer is no, then that immediately relegates the Dor to #3, perhaps #4 if you feel like being especially technical (you could make a case for it, if the DorShard left a large reservoir of power for people to channel. It seems implausible to me, but hey, it's possible. Also, I'm going to use "DorShard" as the technical term for it, because it sounds more snazzy). More below.



Now that you've seen the factors that I'm taking into consideration, let's discuss placement and other interesting factoids.

Here's something especially interesting I found, looking back on the MB3 Spoiler thread:

Quote from: EUOL
So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly.  When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy.  Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body.  It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose.  That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

This explains why the physical bodies disappear, but there's something greater in Realmatics working here. The pool makes bodies vaporize, too.

I have no idea what this implies. My initial though is that the people who die there become more expansive entities, but that doesn't seem right. Instead, perhaps this Shard absorbs parts of the Physical Realm and Cognitive Realm (namely, humans--I suppose they have spiritual aspects, too) and place it into the DorShard's Spiritual Aspect. Maybe the DorShard is some weird Transformation Shard.

I don't know, I'm throwing random ideas out here that won't amount to anything. Whatever this Pool does, however, is intrinsically linked to its Shard's purpose. More investigation is required.

Two relevant quotes from that scene in Elantris:

Quote
The water held Raoden in a cool embrace. It was alive, he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent.It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
 Come, it pled. You can finally give up.
No, Raoden thought. Not yet.

Okay, here's the talking part. It's quite difficult not to call this Shard #2, judging from this quote.

Quote
A vision sprang into Raoden's passive mind. He tried to ignore it. Yet, for some reason, it refused to leave. He save it through the shimmering surgace of his pain -- a simple picutre.
It was Aon Rao. A large square with four circles around it, lines connecting them to the center. It was a widely used Aon -- espeically among the Korathi -- for its meaning. Spirit. Soul. 
 Floating in the white eternity, Raoden's mind tried to discard the image of Aon Rao. It was something from a previous existance, unimportant and forgotten. He didn't need it any longer. Yet, even as he strove to remove the image, another sprung up in its place. 
 Elantris. Four walls forming a square. The four outer cities, currounding it, their border cricles. A straight road leading from each city to Elantris.
Mericiful Domi!

A couple of notes here: the Shard is putting Raoden into a passive state. Also, there's a link from the Korathi to the Soul, or Spiritual Realm--probably not significant on its own, but it could be worthy to note.

I think it is worthy to note that there could be two Shards at work in this scene. Why? Well... first of all, Ruin spoke to Vin when she was in the Well (Preservation's Shard Pool), so y'know, let's say there's a possibility there are two Shards at work. The Pool and the DorShard could be unrelated. I'm undecided about that, myself.

More importantly, Opelon has a god which really isn't explored well in Elantris: Jaddeth, or Domi. Both religions spawned from Shu-Keseg, so they could be the same mythological entity. (Maybe) I propose that this is a Shard.

Let's look at the Pool scene. We have one Shard, with a passive mindset, telling Raoden to give up. This is the Shard Pool's influence. But! Raoden received a vision of an Aon. It seems slightly contradictory to have one Shard telling Raoden to die, and then the other showing him an Aon. This is an interesting duality. One giving him a reason to live, the other wanting him to die. Passion/Tranquility, it could be called?

The DorShard would know how to operate its Aons. It seems very reasonable that the DorShard would be the thing to show Raoden this clue--after all, the vision "refused to leave" his mind. The DorShard would be placing this for him, I believe. It's pretty hard to ignore ;)

But, under this line of thought, the DorShard is calling Raoden to action, something... antithetical to what the Pool is doing. One could make a strong case that these are two completely different Shards at work here. Let us assume for a moment that this is true.

If so, then we have not interacted with the DorShard, but rather, whatever Shard the Pool belongs to. This makes the PoolShard #2, because we have interacted with it. Therefore, that makes the DorShard #3, because we've seen its influence a heck of a lot, but we haven't talked to it. Though, as Brandon points out, it is a very tough call. Let's assume that channeling the Dor doesn't count as "interacting". In that case, we have certainly seen the Dor's power a lot.

Hey, I actually kind of like this theory, splitting the DorShard and PoolShard. You don't have to believe me; I expect stiff opposition, because it really does seem like the Pool and the Dor should be linked. It's simpler. There's a likelihood, however, that there is more than one Shard on Opelon. Domi/Jaddeth (Peter, do you know what Shu-Keseg calls that deity? It would be really helpful to know) seem awfully separated from the Dor, simply on a mythological level. This does not suggest that Domi/Jaddeth are the same, but if anything, it suggests that there's another Shard on Opelon.

I found this very interesting Hrathen line when I was doing an Amazon LookInside search for "pool", because I wanted to find that Raoden scene (In case you're wondering, you can't access that particular section with Amazon's sample, which is good. Can't spoil the ending, eh?):

Quote
"Shu-Korath is docile and unassuming, priest," Hrathen said. "Shu-Dereth is vibrant and dynamic. It will sweep you away like a roaring flood rushing through a stagnant pool."

Passion/Tranquility dynamics, perhaps? If so, then maybe Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth are two different Shards' manipulations on Keseg's teachings...

(I think we'll learn a lot more about Jaddeth and Fjordell in the Elantris sequel, which Brandon said has Kiin's children as viewpoint characters, who live in Fjordell)

So, in review:

1. Endowment. Obviously.
2. PoolShard. We talked to it (which, I believe, negates that Hoid factor I mentioned above).
3. DorShard. Seen plenty of its power, but haven't talked to it. If I were Brandon, I'd describe the Dor as a tough call as to whether we've interacted with it or not. The line is blurry.
4. And... well, I had a great idea for #4--the Shard which left its world--when I started this post, but looks like my stream-of-consciousness negated it. I was going to say that Domi/Jaddeth could have been a Shard (the same Shard), but then left. Someone mentioned that Hrathen said Jaddeth left and would come back sometime. If so, Jaddeth is #4. If this Passion/Tranquility thing checks out, then we've obviously missed a Shard somewhere.

We need a better name for Tranquility...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 07:43:30 AM
Shu-Dereth says that Jaddeth is sleeping beneath the earth, and that he will rise only when all men are obedient to him. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Domi and Jaddeth being one shard. I don't think one shard could fuel 3 different types of magic.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 07:49:12 AM
Endowment isn't obvious at all for #1, where did we ever interact with it to the level of Hoid or the Pool Shard?  Furthermore, "Release", the name Ookla proposed for the Pool Shard, could be quite easily interpreted to apply to the Dor's activities as well.   As to Raoden noticing Aeon Rao in Elantris, why couldn't he have figured it out on his own?  IIRC, he was looking at Elantris from a mountaintop at the time.


And why did you drop Hoid?  Last I checked Vin and Saze didn't notice a spaceship in their solar system when they were in Shardmode.  Without a Space Ship, Shardhood is pretty much the only way I can think of for Hoid to cross interstellar distances.


@Inquisitor, why not?  Preservation fuels at least 16 magics.  More if you consider him a joint fueler of Feruchemy.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 07:54:48 AM
Shu-Dereth says that Jaddeth is sleeping beneath the earth, and that he will rise only when all men are obedient to him. I'm afraid I have to disagree with Domi and Jaddeth being one shard. I don't think one shard could fuel 3 different types of magic.

They are based off of the same religion, which was my logic.

I always assumed those three magic types were all Dor-based. Jaddeth (or Domi) need not be the same thing as the Dor.

Endowment isn't obvious at all for #1, where did we ever interact with it to the level of Hoid or the Pool Shard?  Furthermore, "Release", the name Ookla proposed for the Pool Shard, could be quite easily interpreted to apply to the Dor's activities as well.   As to Raoden noticing Aeon Rao in Elantris, why couldn't he have figured it out on his own?  IIRC, he was looking at Elantris from a mountaintop at the time.


And why did you drop Hoid?  Last I checked Vin and Saze didn't notice a spaceship in their solar system when they were in Shardmode.  Without a Space Ship, Shardhood is pretty much the only way I can think of for Hoid to cross interstellar distances.


@Inquisitor, why not?  Preservation fuels at least 16 magics.  More if you consider him a joint fueler of Feruchemy.

Lightsong interacted with Endowment. Brandon thought it was obvious enough to give that Shard a name.

Raoden could have figured it out on its own, but that image seemed pretty persistent to show him a picture of Rao...

I definitely do like Ookla's name of Release, which makes a lot of sense. I had already typed that up before Ookla posted that, though.

I just didn't know where to fit Hoid in that scenario, that's all.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 08:03:11 AM
I lumped all of those powers together because Allomancy only does one thing. It allows the allomancer to burn metals. The different metals are what allow for a diverse selection of powers. And I don't really see preservation and ruin jointly fueling feruchemy, I see it as a natural balance between the two.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 08:40:29 AM
In the MB3 Spoiler thread, Brandon said both Preservation and Ruin can fuel Feruchemy if they wanted to, it would just require more energy than gods are usually willing to use.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 09:16:15 AM
I should rephrase myself then. I don't think Feruchemy stems from either of them.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on July 14, 2009, 02:08:34 PM
I just want to add something that is learned from Scribbler. I don't know if it applies in the Shardworlds, but it might make sense.

One of the rules of magic in Scribbler is that you have to know what the symbol does before the symbol actually works. In Warbreaker, Vasher says that you have to 'use your mind like a muscle' in order to Awaken. It's hard to use your mind like a muscle, if it has no idea what it's going to do. This could explain why Breaths weren't discovered until the First Awakened, when they learned that something was going on. Also the Tears of Edglie(sp?) probably have something to do with it.

Also, the fact that Endowment is a Shard means that the religions aren't always correct. Sometimes they're dead wrong. This means that Domi/Jaddeth don't have to be a shard. They might be, but I don't think so.

Also, Yes Chaos, thanks for joining  ;)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 14, 2009, 06:19:34 PM
I figured maybe the shards on Opelon were Love and Obedience or something similar because the two gods we hear about in Elantris rely on love and obedience respectively.
This is a good theory too. Both of those would make excellent shard names.

I am not sure that Domi and Jaddeth are actual entities. Mistborn showed us that the people in his worlds can follow a ton of different religions that have some truth without being, in essence, the truth.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Inquisitor on July 14, 2009, 06:57:13 PM
True. It just reminded me of Mistborn a lot.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 14, 2009, 07:30:55 PM
Chaos made an epic post again! Yay! Well, in celebration, I shall make my own epic post compiling all of my own thoughts. It's nice to be back to theorizing. And I think we may finally have enough to go on that we can do some decent theorizing. So I'll be back later with a lengthy post of my own.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 07:44:52 PM
Chaos made an epic post again! Yay! Well, in celebration, I shall make my own epic post compiling all of my own thoughts. It's nice to be back to theorizing. And I think we may finally have enough to go on that we can do some decent theorizing. So I'll be back later with a lengthy post of my own.

Sounds great!

I figured maybe the shards on Opelon were Love and Obedience or something similar because the two gods we hear about in Elantris rely on love and obedience respectively.
This is a good theory too. Both of those would make excellent shard names.

I am not sure that Domi and Jaddeth are actual entities. Mistborn showed us that the people in his worlds can follow a ton of different religions that have some truth without being, in essence, the truth.

I'm not sure either. However, we certainly don't have all four missing Shards yet, so anything is possible.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 14, 2009, 09:43:27 PM
I promised a reply, and I've never been one for dramatic introductions (which is part of the reason, I suspect, that Chaos defeated me for the position of Hero of Ages), so here it is.

 Now, for the sake of cohesion, I shall list the shards that I believe we know of.

1. Ruin
2. Preservation
3. Endowment
4. Hoid
5. The Dor (Possibly linked to the Pool)
6. (Possibly) The Pool
7. (Possibly) Whatever Jaddeth is / the force behind the Dakhor monks.

Ruin and Preservation I'm going to ignore, since we know quite a bit about them and are discussing the OTHER shards we know of.

Endowment

 So.  I wanted to begin with this quote.

Quote from: Warbreaker, pg 568, Hardcover edition (obviously)
He turned to the side. Blushweaver’s body lay red and bloodied. He’d seen
that it in a vision. In the vague shadows of morning memory, he’d thought
that the image had been of her blushing, but now he remembered. He looked
to the side. Llarimar, eyes closed as if asleep—that image had been in his
dream as well. Lightsong realized the man had them shut as he wept.

The God King in prison. Lightsong had seen that too. But above it all,
he remembered standing on the other side of a brilliant, colorful wave of
light, looking down at the world from the other side. And seeing everything
he loved dissolve into the destruction of war. A war greater than any the
world had known, a war more deadly—even—than the Manywar.
He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and
comforting, offering him an opportunity.

To Return.


By the Colors . . . Lightsong thought, standing up as the priests forced the
God King to his knees. I am a god.

Lightsong stepped forward, moving up to the bars of his cage. He saw
pain and tears in the God King’s face and somehow understood them. The
man did love Siri. Lightsong had seen the same thing in the queen’s eyes.
She had somehow come to care for the man who was to oppress her.

“You are my king,” Lightsong whispered. “And lord of the gods.”

The Pahn Kahl men forced the God King facedown on the stones. One
of the priests raised a sword. The God King’s arm jutted out, his hand toward
Lightsong.

I have seen the void, he thought. And I came back.

Emphasis mine.

As you can see, Lightsong does not actually talk with the voice here. He remembers that he did talk with the voice. He doesn't even repeat the conversation. As such, I do not think that we can count this as having interacted directly with a shard. Even if we did hear the voices, Lightsong is having a flashback. I'm not sure we can count a memory as direct interaction either. Either way, Endowment is NOT, as chaos has suggested, one of the Shards of Adonalsium who we have interacted with directly.

That leaves Endowment, using Chaos' numbering system, to fill either space 3 or 4. I would say probably 3, as Awakening and the Returned seem to be more manifestations of Endowment's Power rather than its Influence.

So, we right now have:
1) Unknown
2) Unknown
3)Endowment
4)Unknown

Hoid

I, too, remember someone authoritative saying that Hoid was bound to a shard. As such, that would make him the Cognitive part of that shard, the sentient part.

Now, Chaos mentioned something about the person eventually beginning to become like the shard they control. For instance, in HoA, Vin talks to Ruin. Now, I would like to point out that through all of this, Vin remains very much .... well, Vin. She doesn't change. Ati, however, talks as though he has been Ruin since Ruin and Preservation created Mankind. So, either a) Ati really is the original cognitive manifestation of Ruin, and was there when Ruin and Preservation created Mankind, or b) Ati thinks that he was there, but actually wasn't. He's become so much the personality of the force (Ruin) behind the shard that he just kind of morphs to it. He's deceived himself into believing that he helped create mankind.

Quote from: Chaos
Compared with the original Shards, Midus (or is it Midius? I don't remember the Liar prologue) held onto his Shard a rather short time. He could retain his consciousness fairly effectively.

IIRC, in the Hoid thread it was recently proposed (and confirmed, though not by Brandon) that Hoid is in fact Midius from Dragonsteel. As such, I'd imagine that this solves the problem of Hoid being able to retain his personality. Quite simply if we go by the theory that the shards don't affect the personality of the person controlling them, then Hoid is fine. If we go by the theory that the Shards do affect that person's personality, then we can just assume that the Shard that Hoid controls is similar to what he's doing (the shard of randomly appearing everywhere?). The one theory I can think of that I like, which I probably read somewhere on here but don't remember who to give credit to, is that the shard that Hoid is bound to is the core of the original Adonalsium, and as such, would want to do what Hoid is doing. Planet hopping to all of the worlds where there are shards, maybe seeing if there was a way to reunite the shards, interfering with some shards and helping others, etc. It makes sense to me.

Anyway, the point is that Hoid is bound to a shard, and we have directly interacted with him. As Such, using Chaos' numbering system, we have:

1) Hoid
2) Unknown
3) Endowment
4) Unknown

So we now know half of them. This is where it gets a little messy.

The Dor and/or The Pool

There are two possilibities here, the Dor and the Pool being one Shard, which Ookla has named Release, or the Dor and the Pool being Two shards.

At first, I'm going to operate under the assumption that there are 2 shards here. If we go under the assertion that the Dor is mindless, and is waiting to be used (like I think Raoden suggests some time in Elantris, not really sure, correct me if I'm wrong), then we can also assume that either A) the sentient part of the Dor is gone, making it like Preservation was through most of the Mistborn books, or B) that the Sentient part of the Dor left, making it and excellent candidate for #4. However, because of another possibility I don't think either of these likely. More on this later.

Still assuming the the Dor and the pool are two seperate shards leaves us with another problem. The only thing that we really know about the power of the pool is that it provides rest for Elantrians (who are an integral part of the system with the Dor, nonetheless). We really don't have anything else to go on for this shard.

It's much easier to say that the Dor and the Pool are the same shard. We can say that the shard is called Release. It causes the Shaod to take men and transform them into Elantrians, who have the ability to Release the power of the dor (presumably from the shard, Release). It then takes the Elantrians, when they have grown tired of life/want to die, and gives them their final Release from life, putting them at peace. This makes sense.

In answer to the problem Chaos mentioned, where it seems like the pool goes counter to what would be productive to the dor by offering to give Raoden rest, I say that the instinct of the shard is Release, and even if Raoden would have been able to release the Dor more fully by not being in the pool, the Shard's instinct would still be to Release Raoden, and allow him peace. Even though it seems counter productive, it still makes sense. Kind of like Preservation making more allomancers with the mist-sickness in HoA. People died, and didn't actually know that they were being made into allomancers. Seems like it would help Ruin, yet it actually worked out in the end. 

This also leaves us with another shard that we have directly interacted with, and gives us this:
1) Hoid
2) Release
3) Endowment
4) Unknown
And finally, we have

Jaddeth

Yes, I know that we don't even know that Jaddeth is a real entity. We do, however, know that the monks of Dakhor use a power that is not (so far as we know) related to Aon Dor. I propose that their magic system stems from another Shard on the Elantris world, which we will hear about in the Elantris sequel Brandon may or may not be writing. For the sake of easiness/convenience, I'm going to call this shard Jaddeth. And it conveniently fills in the missing hole in our chart. After all, by the insistance of the Fjordell or however you spell it, Jaddeth is sleeping. Or perhaps, missing from the world? Left it? It could be that Jaddeth was there and the Fjordell worship him. Jaddeth has since left. If this is the case, it could also be that the Dakhor monks are using the powers of Release (which would be a little weird), since Jaddeth is not there. That's an interesting question. Does the shard have to be on the world a magic user is on for that magic system to work. IE, in a future mistborn book, a mistborn travels to the world where Elantris is via space travel. He/she finds that he/she cannot use allomancy because preservation is not present on that world. See what I mean? Or does it matter? Maybe the magic system works everywhere. hmmm.

EDIT: I forgot to add that it also makes sense that Jaddeth left because we haven't seen his power, we've seen his influence. All of the Fjordell have been influenced by him. All the followers of that one religion that escapes me, Shu-Whatever.

Anyway, for kicks and giggles, I'm going to put Jaddeth in the 4th slot, since we really don't have any better options. I'm by no means sold on this, but I don't have any better suggestions. So:

1) Hoid
2) Release
3) Endowment
4) Jaddeth

That's my theory at the moment. I really don't have much else to offer on the matter until I see some critiques of this. So there. Yes.

EDIT: 1683 words according to word count in word. The word "Word" appears far too much in that sentence. Anyway.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 14, 2009, 10:07:03 PM
I like most of your post Andrew, but I have to disagree on Jaddeth.  IIRC, When Dilaf took down Raoden's disguise, Raoden felt someone accessing the Dor.  I still think that my Warbreaker idea is the best.


Also, regarding Ati and humanity, why can't Humanity have been somewhere else first, and then the Shards went around putting people on random planets for whatever inscrutable deific reason?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 14, 2009, 10:14:03 PM
Well Ati talks for a while about Ruin and Preservation had to work together to create. I assumed he meant humans, since the creations that Ruin is trying to destroy are humans, and they are also what Ruin was attempting to preserve.

If Raoden felt Dilaf accessing the Dor, that actually fits my second idea even better. If Jaddeth isn't on the world, and the Dakhor monks are using the Dor to power their magic. Then we are left seeing jaddeth's influence (the religion of the Fjordell) but not his power.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 10:18:48 PM
Andrew, I like your theory much better than mine. "Release" works Oh So Well for the Dor and the Pool I like it far too much to not use.

Okay, Endowment could be #3. It is, at the very least, a very tough call. I'll buy it.

I'll buy the whole list, in fact. Works perfectly, and fits Hoid in. I like it.

Quote
Now, Chaos mentioned something about the person eventually beginning to become like the shard they control. For instance, in HoA, Vin talks to Ruin. Now, I would like to point out that through all of this, Vin remains very much .... well, Vin. She doesn't change. Ati, however, talks as though he has been Ruin since Ruin and Preservation created Mankind. So, either a) Ati really is the original cognitive manifestation of Ruin, and was there when Ruin and Preservation created Mankind, or b) Ati thinks that he was there, but actually wasn't. He's become so much the personality of the force (Ruin) behind the shard that he just kind of morphs to it. He's deceived himself into believing that he helped create mankind.

My thought was that Vin hadn't controlled Preservation long enough for her personality to be changed. It would probably take hundreds, maybe thousands of years for it to happen. It's just an idea.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 14, 2009, 10:30:40 PM
It's an idea that I quite like, actually. It makes sense that as a person is controlling a force, their personality just kind of.... merges with that force. And it would definitely take time. However, for that to work with hoid, he has to be controlling a shard that fits his personality. Hence the idea with the core of the original adonalsium.

And my theory is basically the same as yours, with a few modifications. I'm not about to take the credit. I just took what other people were already saying and stuck it together.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2009, 10:38:15 PM
If you switched Release and Endowment around, you'd have basically made what I had been intending for my theory, before I got horribly, horribly sidetracked with the Pool. You know very well, Andrew, that my "theories" are often just me thinking through a problem. Probability for being sidetracked = very high.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on July 14, 2009, 10:47:27 PM
If you follow my post, you'll see the same thing. I'd originally intended the whole thing with Jaddeth to be just the Dakhor monks using his power, but I saw while typing that it fits better for them to use the Dor and have Jaddeth be gone. I just randomly jot down thoughts and call it a theory. That's why its long, not really because it has to be.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 15, 2009, 05:06:30 PM
It was Ben (Tage) who confirmed the two things you said were confirmed by someone but couldn't remember who. Also, he said that if you've read Dragonsteel (the one at the BYU Library) you should be able to figure out who Hoid is in it. If you read that you should also be able to figure out what his shard does.

(Though Brandon said in the B&N thread that nothing in the unpublished books, where all those pieces of information come from, is canonized. It's all subject to change at a later date when Brandon gets around to revising those books for publication. In fact, a great deal of it has already changed. Some of Dragonsteel has been lifted into Way of Kings.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Tage on July 15, 2009, 10:13:45 PM
Yeah, I try to disclaimer things with "last I heard" or similar. I'm pretty sure, and this is just personal opinion, that the three main roles presented in the original Dragonsteel will exist when/if it ever gets published, and that Hoid's identity related to that story will stay. I also have no doubt that the specifics will be wildly different.

Still, with unpublished ideas bouncing around in an author's head, you never know. Brandon may scrap the whole Dragonsteel world and start over, and completely redifine the shards on that world, including Hoid's origin story.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: flyleaffan on July 30, 2009, 06:54:35 AM
But I've never heard of a magic system which allows for travel across worlds. 

You should check out Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar Saga. It involves magic that allows travel across worlds. And it's quite good.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Ari54 on July 30, 2009, 07:12:52 AM
I think travelling worlds with magic is probably one of those ideas whose time has come. I've had that on my list of "loose ideas" for... I think six years? Almost as long as I've had the list. It's certainly not new, but it's waiting for someone to make a really good book involving it in a way that's fun and exciting. Which is a matter of inventing a cool space travel system.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on July 30, 2009, 03:13:19 PM
I think travelling worlds with magic is probably one of those ideas whose time has come. I've had that on my list of "loose ideas" for... I think six years? Almost as long as I've had the list. It's certainly not new, but it's waiting for someone to make a really good book involving it in a way that's fun and exciting. Which is a matter of inventing a cool space travel system.

I would argue that sci-fi has been using various magical travelling-to-other-worlds systems for years.

Here's a hint:  Real science hasn't got a clue how we could really do it safely, especially not faster-than-light.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on July 31, 2009, 04:55:27 AM
Look up the theoretical 5th dimension if that stuff interest you...pretty cool stuff but very much, as it stands right now, sci-fi aka fanciful bull
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on July 31, 2009, 06:39:58 AM
Look up the theoretical 5th dimension if that stuff interest you...pretty cool stuff but very much, as it stands right now, sci-fi aka fanciful bull

I'm a physics Ph.D. (finally earned it a couple of weeks back),  and although my emphasis has been on electromagnetic and non-relativistic quantum waves, I've got something of a handle on the other fields of physics.  When it comes to faster than light travel, at the moment there is nowhere to start.  Our best theories say that local faster than light travel just can't be done, with absolutely no loopholes in either the math or the experiments (if anybody starts citing quantum mechanics at me, I'll take you apart.  I've had to take field theory classes which address that very subject very quickly and effectively.  Can't be done.).  Using general relativity to exploit the "local" loophole (creating global faster-than-light travel and, as a side-effect, a time machine) might be possible technically, but is not likely to be really possible, even in principle (e.g. you could create a time machine that functions only when nothing is travelling through it.  Not terribly useful.)

However, a number of faster-than-light travel "magic systems" have been created that are internally useful for storytelling.  It's late and I'm tired, but it might be fun to start listing them and discussing pros and cons, both in their implications and for story-telling.  Not sure where we would stick that thread, though.  I'm still something of a newbie here.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on July 31, 2009, 02:59:47 PM
What about Alcubierie (sp?) Drives?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on July 31, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
The Alcubierre drive is actually the perfect example of the kind of general relativistic exception I was talking about.  If the Wikipedia entry is accurate, while it may be possible in principle, it is probably not possible in practice.  The mathematics are extremely difficult and experts in the field disagree on what the implications of such drives are.  For instance, it may be possible to create an Alcubierre drive, but that nobody can get into it or out of it; thus the drive would simply take one bit of spacetime across the universe without taking any people with it.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on August 01, 2009, 06:30:12 AM
But it might be that you could, theoretically, do the FTL thing?


I have a quantum mechanics question for you btw, should I pm you?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on August 01, 2009, 04:16:52 PM
But it might be that you could, theoretically, do the FTL thing?

We don't know.  General relativity drives (such as wormholes or the Alcubierre drive) are the only known loophole, and the associated problems are difficult to solve and presumably even hard to actually do (for instance, according to Wikipedia, some have argued that to create an Alcubierre drive, you must have matter travelling locally faster than light, which seems to be absolutely impossible).  Note that in the expanding universe, things travel away from each other faster than speed of light (because the universe itself can expand faster than the speed of light) but that they can never come back together again.  Whether this is a general principle or not is not understood.

I have a quantum mechanics question for you btw, should I pm you?

Go ahead.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: douglas on August 01, 2009, 05:03:04 PM
From the little I know on the subject, there are several known theoretical ways to travel faster than light in a global sense, or do strange things like return to your starting point in both space and time, but they all require weird setups that are certainly at least extremely difficult to achieve in practice and may prove to be theoretically impossible to actually pull off.  Knowing that a certain configuration of matter and energy makes FTL travel possible does no good if creating that configuration isn't possible.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on August 03, 2009, 05:26:49 AM
Aren't there particles that go faster than light and b/c of it they go back through time...my physics teacher was having a discussion with another physics teacher about them my junior year of highschool
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Ari54 on August 03, 2009, 10:04:28 AM
I would argue that sci-fi has been using various magical travelling-to-other-worlds systems for years.

Here's a hint:  Real science hasn't got a clue how we could really do it safely, especially not faster-than-light.

Right, soft sci-fi is essentially fantasy, but I can imagine several things you could do with magical space travel with much better suspension of disbelief than scifi space travel. Also, travelling to different worlds in fantasy has traditionally had VERY different implications than doing so in science fiction. Partially because it tends to focus on travel to alternate dimensions.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on August 03, 2009, 07:46:22 PM
Aren't there particles that go faster than light and b/c of it they go back through time...my physics teacher was having a discussion with another physics teacher about them my junior year of highschool

No.  You are thinking of so-called tachyons.  Such particles have been theorized but not seen.  The only 'true' theories that rigorously describe such beasts turn out to be slower-than-light in terms of actual observable phenomena.  The wikipedia article on the subject seems to be fairly good.  I quote part of the introduction in case in changes:

"Today, in the framework of quantum field theory, tachyons are best understood as signifying an instability of the system and treated using tachyon condensation, rather than as real faster-than-light particles, and such instabilities are described by tachyonic fields. According to the contemporary and widely accepted understanding of the concept of a particle, tachyon particles are too unstable to be treated as existent.[4] By that theory, faster than light information transmission and causality violation with tachyons are impossible on both grounds: they are non-existent in the first place (by tachyon condensation)[4] and even if they existed they wouldn't be able to transmit information (by Feinberg's analysis).[3] Despite the theoretical arguments against the existence of tachyon particles, experimental searches have been conducted to test the assumption against their existence; however, no experimental evidence for or against the existence of tachyon particles has been found.[5]"

This is one of the downsides of pop-sci publications.  People think they know more than they think they really do.  I certainly did, back in the day.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on August 04, 2009, 06:42:02 AM
So, this was recently answered in the B&N forums. We finally know the names of planets:

Elantris:  Sel
Warbreaker:  Nalthis
Mistborn: Scadrial
Way of Kings:  Roshar
White Sand: Taldain
Dragonsteel: Yolen
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on August 05, 2009, 03:56:56 AM
So are all 16 shards found on those 6 worlds?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 05, 2009, 05:49:31 AM
No. There's still at least one other book, The Silence Divine, which is set on a different world. And there are probably a couple we haven't heard anything about yet.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Plasman on August 05, 2009, 07:00:27 AM
so it is confirmed that The Silence Divine takes place in the Hoid-verse then huh?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on August 05, 2009, 03:24:43 PM
No. There's still at least one other book, The Silence Divine, which is set on a different world. And there are probably a couple we haven't heard anything about yet.

I don't suppose this is a confirmation that there are 16 shards?  Or did I miss that?  Or are you just saying "There are more shards"?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 06, 2009, 02:54:36 AM
16 shards is the prevailing theory. I don't think Brandon has said.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Plasman on August 20, 2009, 05:50:05 AM
so i was thinking about how brandon said there were 36 planned books in the Hoid-Verse and decided to make a list of the one we know of so far.

Elantris x2
Mistborn x9 (two future trilogies)
Warbreaker x2
The Stormlight Archive x10
Dragonsteel x7
White Sand
The Silence Divine

assuming i'm remembering my numbers right, that makes 32, leaving four left unknown. i suppose its most likely that these will be a combination of sequels for white sand and silence, but i think it is safe to assume there are a couple worlds left in the hoid-verse that we know nothing of.
sorry, kinda random.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on August 20, 2009, 06:11:35 AM
Here's a bit of info from the signing yesterday (I don't know how much of it you guys know since I'm too lazy to go looking)

Silence devine: It's set in the same solar system as another shard, so there are ten shard systems (I swear he said ten).  He also said that Stormlight, MB, and a third one (My brain is saying white sands, but don't quote me on that one. [edit]Now I'm also thinking it might have been Elantris.  It was one of the two.) are three of the major pieces of the cosmology.  WB isn't exactly important, but isn't unimportant either.

He also explained a bit about Realmatic theory.  (spell check on rulmatic?)  He said each thing exsists on three planes: spirit, mental, physical.  So the way hulmargy (I'm too lazy to look up the proper spelling) uses the spike to rip off a piece of the person's spirit and create a hack (his word, not mine.  I would more say link) between the two.  He also said that metal isn't what creates the power, but is the link to the power, allowing you to access the abilities.  He said that the Aon's in Elantris (we really, really need an abrevation for that book) is the same opening.  Awakening however is putting your mental ability and life into an object.

The example given is a rock: it has the three "DNA" process -- it's "DNA" exsists on the mental, spiritual, and physical level.  However, it doesn't have much by way of mental.

He also meantioned the pool, and when I asked, he did confirm that there is a pool in all three of the seen shard worlds (Elantris pool, the well as a pool, and he didn't say what the WB pool was.)  When I asked if those were hoid's portals he didn't say anything.  (Actually, I think he just said "I'm not going to answer that.")

I'll add more if I remember more, and I'll get off my lazy butt and catch myself up so I can ask better questions.

(Also, side note: He said that Realmatic theory is that each person is reborn three times.  He then went on to explain the three planes of exsistance, but I don't know if the fact that he used "reborn" (or was it reincarnated) is important.  Just food for thought.

Another note is that Realmatic theory is called that because that's what it's called in... my brain is saying dragonsteel, but I could be wrong.  It's in one of the books.

I've also put this here, since Brandon meantioned them one after the other, and seemed to imply they're connected.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 20, 2009, 07:26:45 AM
Realmatic theory, the three realms of existence, the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on August 20, 2009, 08:27:01 PM
Ha!  That makes sense.  Maybe I'll actually remember the spelling now.

Also, I was reading through everything, and Zas made a very good point:

I thought that the Dor might cause the Dahkor monks and Clayshin, but then I realized that the Opelon magic is like the Scadrial magic.
You have Allomancy and Aons, that both get energy out of nowhere, you have Clayshin and Ferchemancy which draw energy from the user, and Hemalurgy and the Dahkor monks draw their energy out of someone else.

Allomancy comes from Leras/Preservation
Aons come from Dor/Domi?/Pool God?

Ferchemy is natural
ClayShin is natural?

Hemalurgy comes from Ati/Ruin
"Bone bending" comes from Jaddeth?

I think that the shining thing on Opelon is like how all the magic on Scadrial involved Metal.

Zas

Note that there are three types.  Plus three realms?  One for each realm? (I'll edit later if I notice that someone has already said this, and to explain once I figure out what I mean.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: sortitus on August 20, 2009, 09:01:12 PM
It's interesting that Brandon pegs Warbreaker as mental, because I thought it was more spiritual than any magic we've seen so far from him. Of course that was assuming that the commands are not necessary except in intent and use of breath (obviously simplicity of commands is important as well). Elantris seems to be almost entirely mental, a typical written magic. Of course, now looking at these assumptions makes me realize that it matters very little where the power comes from in determining the type of magic. All of his magics can be acquired through a spiritual transmutation of some sort, so by that measure all of the books so far are spiritual magic. My list included emotional as well as physical, mental, and spiritual.

So, Allomancy is entirely physical, Feruchemy is part physical and part mental, Hemalurgy is spiritual and physical, BioChromatic Breath is mental and spiritual, Aons are spiritual, but have a mental and physical component as well. Maybe.

Of course, I used to think that the Mistborn world was giving us every kind of magic and that emotional magic was another type. Right up until we got the chart. Ah well, I'm sure it's not the last time I'll be wrong.
Note that there are three types.  Plus three realms?  One for each realm? (I'll edit later if I notice that someone has already said this, and to explain once I figure out what I mean.)
I don't see any relationship, but it could be there. For example, Hemalurgy is Scadrial's spiritual magic, while Jaddeth's magic seems to be physical. Of course, if we applied the natural, the divine, and the demonic to the magics we've seen so far, we may get something. That would give us 9 shards of different orientations if we're using it as a count. Add another criteria in there (one that has four different options), and we could have a comprehensive list of the shards (3x3x4=36). I doubt it, but it's possible.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on August 20, 2009, 10:29:38 PM
I'm only on page 11, but before I forget I wanted to say that in my opinion the Dor is one thing, and the three magics in Elantris access it in different ways.  They all access the same energy source, but the way to access it is different (the aons, the martial arts, and whatever the monks do.)  So I think that there's only one shard fueling the Dor (and I agree with Chaos that there's one shard in the pool and one outside.  It just seems to make more sense after what he pointed out.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: sortitus on August 20, 2009, 10:45:29 PM
The way you draw the Aons is related to what part of the world you live in. The further you get from the center of the quadrant you're drawing, the more power diminishes. Elantrian magic is most powerful in Elantris because the city is centered on the part of the world they are drawing. I don't know if there are just specific regions you can draw, or if you can always draw with the place you are at the center of the drawing. If it's the latter, it should be possible to map out the entire world and be universally powerful all across the surface. Of course, the different things you do with the Aons is determined by what details you add to the drawing. Perhaps the region Elantrians live in determines what powers they have. Center your drawing on the part of the land that you draw to shield yourself, and maybe your shield spells become stronger.

Rambling theory (I talk too much sometimes).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on August 21, 2009, 12:08:30 AM
Maybe only certain people can access certian aspects of the shard on Oplon (that is the planet, right?)

So the Elantrians can only access the Aon part of the DorShard, the monks can only access another aspect.  The fuel comes from the same place,  but is different parts (kind of like this: the aons only let triangle shaped pieces come through, the monks square and the martial arts circle pieces.  It all comes from the same bowl.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: sortitus on August 21, 2009, 12:48:18 AM
Does the location you're living affect if you're eligible for the magic? Is it genetic? Is it completely random?

If location and genetics don't affect it, is your focus always Elantris (for Elantrians)?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on August 21, 2009, 01:41:33 AM
No, I think the focus is the matrial arts/symbols.  And I think it's a genetic thing.  That's why the people from Teod can also become Elantrians.  Or people who have Elantrian blood in them (ie Galadon)

(Also, I'm totally theorising here.  Don't take anything I say after the post where I say it's from Brandon to be from him.  'Cause it's not.)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on September 24, 2009, 08:16:39 PM
If this "realmatic theory" thing holds for every planet/magic system, then I think the so-called "Enhancement" metals in Allomancy ought to be called "Spiritual" by virtue of the fact that they bolster or smother the somewhat divine/spiritual abilities of an Allomancer or those in close proximity.  It certainly would make more sense to have an adjective instead of a noun for that category, considering the others are named that way.

Of course, this also might imply that there is a fourth Realm - time, which may in turn imply that there is a fourth Magic (which is probably the "divine" magic).

---

I think that, as all Scadrian magic derives from metal, so all Opelonian magic is based on shapes (runes).  Recall that Dakhor bones are shaped in a particular way, and that they glow when their powers are activated.  Also, ChayShan begins with a complex motion of the body, probably stopping at "magical" positions.  I would not be at all surprised if it turned out that ChayShan led the body to shape itself like Jindoeese characters, and that the bones of a Dakhor monk resembled Fjordish runes.  Nor do I think it is too much to suppose that Fjordish runes are linked to the geography of Fjordell, or that Jindoeese characters derive from the shape of the land of Jindo.

In that case, perhaps digging a wide chasm through a piece of Fjordell would invoke some sort of curse against the Monks of Dakhor.   ;)

Also, you probably got the number 10 from "Way of Kings," which is supposed to feature ten distinct magic systems.  To my knowledge, no information has yet come to light regarding the total number of Shards in existence, though it is conjectured that 16 is a universally divine number and therefore there are probably 16 Shards.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on September 24, 2009, 09:54:01 PM
Monk and Jindo powers CAN'T be geographically powered else they would get weaker the farther away from the fatherland, and the monks are a society of conquest so they would have been turned back earlier if they had a limited range. Also even if you map the whole world the city is THE Focus for the Aon Dor. The city and it's outlieing towns create the "gate" for which the Elantrians can preform miracles ect. And for both shards on Scardiel metal was power so it is likely that characters are power for this world (Opelon or whatnot is the continent).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on September 25, 2009, 04:30:45 AM
Also, you probably got the number 10 from "Way of Kings," which is supposed to feature ten distinct magic systems.  To my knowledge, no information has yet come to light regarding the total number of Shards in existence, though it is conjectured that 16 is a universally divine number and therefore there are probably 16 Shards.

I'll note here that although there were two shards on Scandriel (sp?), there were three magic systems, one for each shard and one caused by the interactions between their opposing powers.  The number of magic systems, I would guess, is not tied to the number of shards, but is actually tied to interactions between the shards and Realmatic theory.

However, if we have a magic system for every possible unique combination of shards and 16 shards, Brandon can keep writing forever several millenia without running out.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Aranfan on September 25, 2009, 02:28:58 PM
Also, Opelon, or whatever the planet Elantris is on is called, seems to have three systems for one Shard.  I think that it would be well to remember that the magic system classifications are the best guess of humans in universe.  Brandon has pulled tricks with the explanation of magic that the characters got being incomplete.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on September 25, 2009, 07:35:34 PM
Monk and Jindo powers CAN'T be geographically powered else they would get weaker the farther away from the fatherland, and the monks are a society of conquest so they would have been turned back earlier if they had a limited range. Also even if you map the whole world the city is THE Focus for the Aon Dor. The city and it's outlieing towns create the "gate" for which the Elantrians can preform miracles ect. And for both shards on Scardiel metal was power so it is likely that characters are power for this world (Opelon or whatnot is the continent).
Not necessarily.  Dakhor magic seems to be powered partly by human sacrifice (recall that the High Priest of the Dakhor once asked that one of his pupils give up his life to conjure something like Aon Teo in order to teleport him to Wyrn).  The Monks may have to be "operated on" very close to a source of Dor (Dakhor Monastery) but, once imbued, able to store bits of it.

Also, you probably got the number 10 from "Way of Kings," which is supposed to feature ten distinct magic systems.  To my knowledge, no information has yet come to light regarding the total number of Shards in existence, though it is conjectured that 16 is a universally divine number and therefore there are probably 16 Shards.

I'll note here that although there were two shards on Scandriel (sp?), there were three magic systems, one for each shard and one caused by the interactions between their opposing powers.  The number of magic systems, I would guess, is not tied to the number of shards, but is actually tied to interactions between the shards and Realmatic theory.
I agree.  The paragraph you excerpted from my post was directed at firstRainbowRose, who earlier said:
Silence devine: It's set in the same solar system as another shard, so there are ten shard systems (I swear he said ten).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on September 25, 2009, 07:39:58 PM
I agree.  The paragraph you excerpted from my post was directed at firstRainbowRose, who earlier said:
Silence devine: It's set in the same solar system as another shard, so there are ten shard systems (I swear he said ten).


I wasn't disagreeing with you.  That's why I said I was taking the opportunity to note something I had previously mused about, but which seemed to fit here, but not in opposition to you particularly.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Cosmic_AC on September 25, 2009, 07:40:58 PM
I see.  My apologies for jumping to conclusions.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on September 26, 2009, 04:32:08 AM
Life as a power source is much different from a continent also there is no suggestion that the monks became less efficeint as the traveled across the sea...in addition the priest dude *brain fart* activates his arm which more or less overflows with power to kill Mr. Big Nasty
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on November 21, 2009, 04:50:08 PM
I found this in HOA, and it has an interesting word...
Quote
"The shard of metal got dangerously close to your heart
(A doctor about Penrod's spike,pg 294)

It may just be a coincidence, but I don't think so. I think Brandon may be trying to tell us something very conspicuously.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on November 22, 2009, 07:33:26 AM
Or not, since I seem to recall that Penrod's "spike" actually was a shard of metal, not a regular spike.

In Elantris, Raoden mentions that he feels the Dor being used when the Dakhor monks are doing their thing. So I would guess it's almost certainly a different aspect of the same magic system, or at the very least a different system from the same shard.

Not that that's any different from anything you guys have been saying, but....

I wonder how many shards there will be in WoK for there to be the 30 ish magic systems I'm hearing about. That should be lots and lots of fun.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on November 23, 2009, 12:18:32 AM
I found this in HOA, and it has an interesting word...
Quote
"The shard of metal got dangerously close to your heart
(A doctor about Penrod's spike,pg 294)

It may just be a coincidence, but I don't think so. I think Brandon may be trying to tell us something very conspicuously.

Nah, I think it really was just a shard.  Penrod is dead, and all he did was get controlled by Ruin.  I don't see anything deep in this.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Czanos on November 23, 2009, 01:59:12 AM
in Way of Kings, it could just be one shard's magic system being interpreted in many ways. I mean, you could kind of call Allomancy 50 different magic systems, one for each known metal.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on November 23, 2009, 04:01:45 AM
There are only 16 alloys in allomancy... though you could number it in 17 ways b/c of mistborn.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on November 23, 2009, 09:21:42 AM
No, what I was saying was maybe he's trying to tell us something about how the Shards of Andonalsium works. I think he's trying to tell us that The Shards all are placed where and when they are placed for a reason, and they are made by maybe even the Death of Andonalsium.

Gosh, Can't you guys read minds?  ;)

(PS now after reading my original post I realize that it was quite vague, and it implied that Penrod was a Shard, which makes no sense. Sorry!)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on November 23, 2009, 03:51:28 PM
No, what I was saying was maybe he's trying to tell us something about how the Shards of Andonalsium works. I think he's trying to tell us that The Shards all are placed where and when they are placed for a reason, and they are made by maybe even the Death of Andonalsium.

Gosh, Can't you guys read minds?  ;)

(PS now after reading my original post I realize that it was quite vague, and it implied that Penrod was a Shard, which makes no sense. Sorry!)

It still doesn't make much sense.  Why would a random comment by an unimportant character who has no background knowledge of the cosmology involved be relevant?  Irony and foreshadowing could always be in play, of course, but the context and simple meaning of the phrase suggest no such thing.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: sibling on December 13, 2009, 07:34:22 AM
I was just struck by a random thought, and I wondered if anyone else had thought about it.

We know of 2 shards for sure: Ati, and Laras. We strongly suspect one more: Dor.

So: Adonalsium

This would mean there are 10 Shards in all. And we have a hint to their possible names.

Or is this a little too obvious?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Andrew the Great on December 13, 2009, 07:40:29 AM
Well it could be, except the Mistborn Shards themselves were Ruin and Preservation. Ati and Leras were the beings that were attached to them, as I understood it.

No r or p in Adonalsium. Although I do like the idea.

Also, I think I remember hearing an approximate number of shards, and while I don't remember exactly what it was, I think it was more than ten (ten letters in Adonalsium).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on December 13, 2009, 08:01:48 AM
The guess for the number of Shards was sixteen, as that number has great importance.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on December 13, 2009, 08:30:35 AM
Ten is also an important number, which you'll see in Way of Kings--but it's important for reasons beyond what's in Way of Kings.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 13, 2009, 08:41:46 PM
I'm about 99% sure the shard from WB is Endowment.   I do know for sure it's the voice speaking to Lightsong.  As for the pool, well, I couldn't get a straight yes or no.  I said that and he was like "Intresting" with a funny look.  But there are pools in all three of the books, so they must be important somehow.  (Chris, is there a pool in dragonsteel?)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on December 13, 2009, 10:24:06 PM

Urhm, not that I remember.  Then again, I seem to have forgot a lot about that book.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on December 13, 2009, 11:30:10 PM
Brandon confirmed in the b&n question and answer that the Voice's shard name is Endowment.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on December 14, 2009, 12:37:39 AM
As for the pool, well, I couldn't get a straight yes or no.  I said that and he was like "Intresting" with a funny look.

*insert frustrated rant here* GAH!!!!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 14, 2009, 12:46:36 AM
Can you remember anything specific about that?  (beyond him saying he was being vague on purpose)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on December 14, 2009, 12:50:11 AM
the only specific that I remember is that look and him saying "Interesting", and then telling us that he wouldn't say we were right or wrong, just that it was interesting...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on December 14, 2009, 04:25:39 PM
As for the pool, well, I couldn't get a straight yes or no.  I said that and he was like "Intresting" with a funny look.

*insert frustrated rant here* GAH!!!!

My interpretation is that Brandon is signaling we don't have the full story on the Shards in Elantris.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on December 14, 2009, 06:48:38 PM
As for the pool, well, I couldn't get a straight yes or no.  I said that and he was like "Intresting" with a funny look.

*insert frustrated rant here* GAH!!!!

My interpretation is that Brandon is signaling we don't have the full story on the Shards in Elantris.

Yes, but still... That smirk... and that "interesting"... Makes me see red, that does...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on December 14, 2009, 10:01:36 PM
Meh.

After all the crap Peter pushed us through waiting for Mistborn 3, I got used to it ;)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 14, 2009, 10:24:28 PM
Yeah, but he didn't do it to you in person.  This was in person because he ALMOST let something slip and caught himself.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on December 14, 2009, 11:33:50 PM
Yeah, but he didn't do it to you in person.  This was in person because he ALMOST let something slip and caught himself.

And it was so close too... and then he was all like "No.. it's just interesting..."
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 15, 2009, 12:20:44 AM
But the pools are important.  He's told me there's a pool in all three published series, and drawing my attention to that fact means it's not a nothing.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 15, 2009, 04:17:25 AM
So here's an interesting fact.

It seems logical to assume that every Shard has at least one magic system associated with it.

We also know that interactions between Shards have magic systems (e.g. Feruchemy).

It is a logical extension of this to assume that combining three Shards would also result in a more powerful system.

If we assume that all combinations of Shards involved in creation of a world produce a magic system, we get that for N shards, the number of magic systems would be 2^N-1.  (I can list the details if you like.  It's slightly advanced algebra.)

I can't help but notice that for N=5, the resulting number of magical systems would be 31.

Edit: Fixed typo.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 15, 2009, 04:46:05 AM
But Roshar has at least 30
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on December 15, 2009, 04:55:27 AM
But Roshar has at least 30

Exactly! We're gonna jump to simple algebra for this one... If A=B and B=C then A=C
(At least 30) = (Any number greater than 30)
(31) = (A number greater than 30)
(31) = (At least 30)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 06:00:31 AM
But the pools are important.  He's told me there's a pool in all three published series, and drawing my attention to that fact means it's not a nothing.

I never said they weren't, they are definitely important. We simply don't have the whole story.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 15, 2009, 03:17:16 PM
But Roshar has at least 30

Exactly! We're gonna jump to simple algebra for this one... If A=B and B=C then A=C
(At least 30) = (Any number greater than 30)
(31) = (A number greater than 30)
(31) = (At least 30)

It was as close to 30 as I could get with my simple assumptions.  And it's really, really close.  Of course, there could be complications.  After all, the powers could interact with the spiritual, physical and cognitive realms in different ways, which would add in an unknown other factor.  We could then have N=4 with 15 magic systems that get doubled by virtue of such interactions.  We just don't know.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Creative_Vortx on December 16, 2009, 07:07:10 PM
I was completely following all the theories on The Shards of Adonalsium until all ya'll had to pull algebra out of your patookus.

Way to ruin it for me.  ???  :D
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 16, 2009, 09:43:12 PM
Don't feel bad.  I'm at a compleate loss too.  Of course, Eric up there WOULD get it.  *peace*  Love ya' Eric.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on December 17, 2009, 06:24:22 AM
Don't feel bad.  I'm at a compleate loss too.  Of course, Eric up there WOULD get it.  *peace*  Love ya' Eric.

Of course I did :) Happyman and I, we are birds of a feather with math and physics.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 17, 2009, 03:10:08 PM
Maybe I can make it simple:

Imagine you have a world with, say, 2 shards.  That's three magic systems (Allomancy, Hemalurgy and Feruchemy) plus the "no magic" option.  If we then add a new shard, all of these magic systems still exist, but you also get a new system from combining each of the old systems with the new shard's power (the single shard's system comes from combining "no magic" with the shard's power).  Thus the number of magic systems doubles each time you get a new shard.  The only caveat is that "no magic" doesn't *really* count, so we have to subtract one after calculating the number of magic systems.  Hence my formula.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Plasman on December 18, 2009, 09:29:21 AM
you are assuming a shard can only combine with one other shard at a time to create a magic system. so far we have not really had thoroughly explained instances of more than two shards operating on a planet at one time.  is it possible that three shards could combine to form one magic system?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Morderkaine on December 18, 2009, 10:47:18 AM
I don't think that the number of magic systems is as directly correlated to the number of shards as has been assumed. After all, the magics are derived from the interactions between peoples' physiology and the shard(s) fuelling them so, theoretically, shards could exist that can't fuel a magic system on their own. It has also been confirmed by Brandon, see quote, that a single shard is capable of fuelling multiple systems on their own if they so desire.

1.  Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts.  Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike.  Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy.  But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.   
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 18, 2009, 01:56:07 PM
you are assuming a shard can only combine with one other shard at a time to create a magic system. so far we have not really had thoroughly explained instances of more than two shards operating on a planet at one time.  is it possible that three shards could combine to form one magic system?

No, I included this possibility in my calculations.  It's why the number of systems grows so fast.  My theory says that with 3 shards, we have seven magic systems.  If the shards are denoted a,b and c, the systems are

a, b, c, ab, ac, bc, abc.

 Note that abc is included, and comes from adding c to ab, which is part of the doubling every time that I mentioned.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on December 18, 2009, 05:37:08 PM
The formula is straight forward... and math is my weak subject (i make careless errors and never get above an A-)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Creative_Vortx on December 18, 2009, 07:12:42 PM
EUREKA!

I finally understand!

Wait.. nope.. still confused.

Just kidding. I get it.

YAY MATH!... sorta.

 :D ???
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 18, 2009, 09:25:34 PM
I don't think that the number of magic systems is as directly correlated to the number of shards as has been assumed. After all, the magics are derived from the interactions between peoples' physiology and the shard(s) fuelling them so, theoretically, shards could exist that can't fuel a magic system on their own. It has also been confirmed by Brandon, see quote, that a single shard is capable of fuelling multiple systems on their own if they so desire.

1.  Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts.  Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike.  Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy.  But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.   


I know that it's probably not as simple as my theory.  I'm just having fun.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: melbatoast on December 18, 2009, 11:37:44 PM
Is Brandon good at math?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: neiana on December 19, 2009, 04:51:06 AM
Wow.  I'd seen this thread over the last few months but didn't read through much of it as I didn't understand what it was about at the time.  Now that I've caught on (and finished Warbreaker), I'm finding myself almost buying the Elantris & Mistborn paperbacks.  Primarily because my originally purchased hardcovers are in California and I'm in Texas (El Paso 'area').

Unfortunately, after reading all 18 pages, I'm not quite sure where some of this data stems from, how this whole tangent started, the whole of the shards coming to light, etc.  If anyone feels so inclined, could you point me to some resources for further study on this topic? :)  I'd muchly appreciate it.

And lastly...

But Roshar has at least 30

Exactly! We're gonna jump to simple algebra for this one... If A=B and B=C then A=C
(At least 30) = (Any number greater than 30)
(31) = (A number greater than 30)
(31) = (At least 30)

IF.

A = "my car"
B = "a mode of transportation"
C = "my bicycle"

THEN:

My car = my bicycle? ;)

You have no idea how infuriating it can be to have lived with a philosophy major (now a professor in ethics, I believe, at a university I haven't asked about recently).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on December 19, 2009, 05:27:45 AM
My stepbrother is a student at UTEP and my cousin Brandon Wolfram broke the all time scoring record for UTEP's basketball program in the late 90's & was on the cover of ESPN for it.



P.S. for those who don't know. UTEP (university of texas @ El Paso) was Texas Southwestern? anyways some direction then western and Glory Road is based off the story of it's all black starting team (the first one in NCAA).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on December 19, 2009, 05:47:06 AM
Unfortunately, after reading all 18 pages, I'm not quite sure where some of this data stems from, how this whole tangent started, the whole of the shards coming to light, etc.  If anyone feels so inclined, could you point me to some resources for further study on this topic? :)  I'd muchly appreciate it.


There was a Hero of Ages spoilers thread immediately after it came out, and a lot of our background info came from there.  I think that it can be found here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6655.0").

Much of the rest comes from third-hand reports of questions answered at signings and is spread out wherever relevant in the forums.

Quote

But Roshar has at least 30

Exactly! We're gonna jump to simple algebra for this one... If A=B and B=C then A=C
(At least 30) = (Any number greater than 30)
(31) = (A number greater than 30)
(31) = (At least 30)

IF.

A = "my car"
B = "a mode of transportation"
C = "my bicycle"

THEN:

My car = my bicycle? ;)

You have no idea how infuriating it can be to have lived with a philosophy major (now a professor in ethics, I believe, at a university I haven't asked about recently).

Well, Mr. J is relying somewhat on unstated but true properties of the ordinal numbers that emphatically do not apply to poorly defined sets.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 19, 2009, 08:09:53 AM
Okay, so you've all lost me with all the math (I kinda' get it, but I really do suck at math).  However, I had an intresting question.  What type of shard is in Silence Divine?  I mean, we know it's not endowment since that's WB's, but it's got to be something close to that.  After all, it grants the powers, but just tempoaraly.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: neiana on December 19, 2009, 04:25:20 PM
There was a Hero of Ages spoilers thread immediately after it came out, and a lot of our background info came from there.  I think that it can be found here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6655.0").

Much of the rest comes from third-hand reports of questions answered at signings and is spread out wherever relevant in the forums.

Ah!  Another long thread to read :D  I appreciate it and will have to dive in over the winter break. :)   I've thrown a few tiny pieces from this thread into an excel file, hoping that by setting everything so side by side, something will appear. -_-  haha

Quote
Well, Mr. J is relying somewhat on unstated but true properties of the ordinal numbers that emphatically do not apply to poorly defined sets.

Certainly.  Mathematical concepts are far more defined than philosophical concepts but the formula appears in both systems.  I think I've been trained to think in the philosophical sense, having been subjected to quite similar conversations on a weekly basis previously.  ???


My stepbrother is a student at UTEP and my cousin Brandon Wolfram broke the all time scoring record for UTEP's basketball program in the late 90's & was on the cover of ESPN for it.



P.S. for those who don't know. UTEP (university of texas @ El Paso) was Texas Southwestern? anyways some direction then western and Glory Road is based off the story of it's all black starting team (the first one in NCAA).

Huh.  I saw the movie when I was in Houston.  In fact, we had a couple of the players show up at the theater during it's sneak preview.  I never, should I say, remembered anything that would have linked the two for me.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on December 19, 2009, 07:36:34 PM
I could be mistaken but my step-mother swears it and she attended UTEP and my father made an off hand comment during a preview about my cousin....
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on December 19, 2009, 07:54:30 PM
Wikipedia supports Kaz.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: neiana on December 19, 2009, 08:21:57 PM
Neat.  I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, I just mustn't have paid enough attention back when the movie came out to have remembered it by the time I moved here. :)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on December 20, 2009, 12:18:30 AM
Wikipedia supports Kaz.

But who knows. Maybe Kaz changed wikipedia, just so he could be right. You never know!  ;)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: neiana on December 20, 2009, 03:39:01 AM
Wikipedia supports Kaz.

But who knows. Maybe Kaz changed wikipedia, just so he could be right. You never know!  ;)

*gasp* Are you suggesting Kaz has the ability to change what is true in our world?  OMG Earth is part of this whole thing and Brandon is Hoid and Kaz is a Shard!!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on December 20, 2009, 06:34:05 AM
Well if you have been lurking for any length of time you would know I have a church with ahigh priest, and Brandon wields my powers to create awesome books!!!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on December 20, 2009, 08:00:15 AM
How did Brandon steal my job!?!  [hide] (Note- Church of Kaz, Election of HoA, and my self-nomination are found in Rants and Stuff. I know, I was confused for a while too.) [/hide]
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Czanos on December 20, 2009, 08:10:52 AM
We need the powers of the Hero of Ages!

Someone find Chaos to save us from this . . . Chaos.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on December 20, 2009, 10:03:17 AM
Quote
Quote
Well, Mr. J is relying somewhat on unstated but true properties of the ordinal numbers that emphatically do not apply to poorly defined sets.

Certainly.  Mathematical concepts are far more defined than philosophical concepts but the formula appears in both systems.  I think I've been trained to think in the philosophical sense, having been subjected to quite similar conversations on a weekly basis previously.  ???

All that time spent in calculus and I can't even make a point with math without everyone busting my chops? I know full well that while all mackerel are fish, not all fish are mackerel, but I was referring to numbers, not ways to get around. ;)

I do officially support the theory that EUOL = HOID tho.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on December 20, 2009, 07:59:58 PM
We need the powers of the Hero of Ages!

Someone find Chaos to save us from this . . . Chaos.

I'm on it.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Morderkaine on January 12, 2010, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: Mistborn 3 Chapter 53 Annotation
However, he [Ruin] is a force given sentience—or, rather, sentience that has attached itself to a force. Regardless, that force drives him and dominates him.

I can't help but feel that there is a lot of significance in those couple sentences. I can't for life of me figure out what it might be right now, but I just know it's there.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on January 12, 2010, 03:51:48 PM
Quote from: Mistborn 3 Chapter 53 Annotation
However, he [Ruin] is a force given sentience—or, rather, sentience that has attached itself to a force. Regardless, that force drives him and dominates him.

I can't help but feel that there is a lot of significance in those couple sentences. I can't for life of me figure out what it might be right now, but I just know it's there.

Well, it strongly suggests that Ati was actually a person with his own goals and personality before absorbing the power of Ruin and being driven and dominated by it.  This has already been strongly implied by, among other things, the fact that he had a body with definite characteristics; this quote from Brandon is extra evidence.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Fireborn on March 25, 2010, 08:35:44 PM
I have a couple of things I'd like to point out concerning various opinions expressed on this thread.

I don't think Hoid is a shard.  Why?  Cuz he still has a physical body.  When Vin became a shard, her body vanished, so if Hoid is a shard why hasn't this happened to him?

I also don't think that the Elantris pool and the Dor are different shards.  Everyone is basing the intentions of the pool on a full two sentences, which can hardly be used to assume all of it's intentions.  But the point still stands: why would the pool offer Raoden rest if he was the only one who could fix the Spirit of Elantris?  Simple: choice.  He gave Raoden a way out of his pain, something so overwhelming as to make him hoed.  He would not be a benevolent god without giving him that option, in my opinion.  And it is a triumph of Raoden's character that he did the right thing, not the easy thing.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Hibron on March 30, 2010, 06:11:28 PM
But the Dor is described several times as a massive, unthinking force that is trying to push out of a space that is way to small for it.  ???
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: doode999 on March 31, 2010, 03:54:03 AM
I don't think Hoid is a shard.  Why?  Cuz he still has a physical body.  When Vin became a shard, her body vanished, so if Hoid is a shard why hasn't this happened to him?

I agree that Hoid isn't a shard, but I am almost certain that he uses a shard. Lightweaving.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on March 31, 2010, 02:41:08 PM
I also don't think that the Elantris pool and the Dor are different shards.  Everyone is basing the intentions of the pool on a full two sentences, which can hardly be used to assume all of it's intentions.  But the point still stands: why would the pool offer Raoden rest if he was the only one who could fix the Spirit of Elantris?  Simple: choice.  He gave Raoden a way out of his pain, something so overwhelming as to make him hoed.  He would not be a benevolent god without giving him that option, in my opinion.  And it is a triumph of Raoden's character that he did the right thing, not the easy thing.

I generally agree with this, but think it may be more complex.  It's perfectly possible that the Dor and the pool are aspects of the same shard.  The key word is aspects.  We have seen that the parts (for lack of a better word) of a shard can be quite distinct and split; shards are very large, in some sense of the term.  There's no reason to assume that different aspects of the same shard will always agree with each other, especially if they were created/split/separated for different reasons.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Rezo on April 01, 2010, 04:49:58 PM
But the Dor is described several times as a massive, unthinking force that is trying to push out of a space that is way to small for it.  ???
That gave me an idea. What if this Shard is, like Ruin or Preservation, made of force and a mind, but if the mind can't handle the power? Like, it wants to keep it inside the planet, but it's still leaking out?
And another speculation out of this one...
Maybe the pool is made by this mind to make the Dor go back to the planet? It destroys the body, then forces the Dor connected to it back inside.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on April 03, 2010, 12:13:47 AM
Except that it is heavily suspected(possibly slightly confirmed) that every Shard has a Pool with Dragonsteel ( I believe that's the term?) in it [Never mind! See Peter's post below]. Maybe this one has a special purpose. Maybe all of them have a special purpose. Isn't speculation wonderful?

Edit- Put a line through my incorrect information.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 03, 2010, 02:12:33 AM
Where did you get the idea that every shard has a pool with Dragonsteel in it? I haven't heard that one before and highly doubt it.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Fireborn on April 03, 2010, 05:03:46 AM
Yeah, Dragonsteel is, I think, a one world, magic related substance.  Whereas, now I may be wrong on this, the pools in the other books are the liquid form of a Shard's power.  The WoA was where Preservation put the energies used to bind Ruin, yes?
If I have this wrong, feel free to tell me.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on April 03, 2010, 05:58:50 AM

Hmmmmmm.  I want to support Zas' idea, but am torn between wondering if Peter is being honest or if it's on of them there red herring moves he enjoys so much.

I do like the idea Zas.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 03, 2010, 07:23:38 AM
I think Dragonsteel is like the liquid in the Well--I think it is the liquid form of a Shard. But only of one particular Shard. And this is just a theory of mine.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Comatose on April 13, 2010, 09:45:34 PM
1. Ok... I'm gonna bring it up again: the tears of edgli.
I think they are the body of Endowment.  Just as the bodies of shards (lerasium and atium) are the ultimate weapons of allomancers, the tears of edgli provide the greatest colour, and thus best fuel, for the awakeners.

2. The Dor and the pool are opposing shards.  The dor is the the one that left (it's conciousness anyway).  I think the earthquake might have been caused bythe shard leaving (or being banished?).  We already have a link (although a tenuous (sp?) one) between earthquakes and shards with ruin.  Perhaps there is osme truth to the Jaddeth myth, but in reality, he and domi are jsut representations of God.
I should point out AonDor and Dor are different things.  Dor is a force (or shard).  aonDor is a magic system or interpretation of Dor's power (like allomancy is of prevervation) as is the Fjordell monks and Clay-shan (sp?).

3.  I don't think Hoid is one of the shards brandon is talking about.  The only evidence we have of him being a shard in the published works is his world hopping abilities.  I posted in the hoid topic that I think Hoid may be the conciousness that has split off from the shards, mirroring what happened, on a smaller scale, to preservation.

 
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on April 13, 2010, 09:56:12 PM

Brandon has said Hoid isn't a shard, but that he is closely related.  He was there when Adonalsium shattered.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on April 13, 2010, 10:25:23 PM
Hoid isn't technically a shard, though by the time you meet him in most books he's bound to one, so it's nearly the same thing.

So Hoid isn't technically a shard, but he is bound to one. So like Leras is bound to Preservation, and as Ati is bound to Ruin, Hoid is bound to... Something. I asked Brandon what Shard he's bound to last Thursday, and he RAFO'd it.

Yay RAFO cards!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on April 13, 2010, 10:30:08 PM
The real question is whether Hoid counts in that list of four shards we've seen the influence of. As of now, we've only been confirmed of Endowment. The other three are open questions.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Terrisman243 on April 14, 2010, 06:53:29 AM
I don't think Hoid is a shard.  Why?  Cuz he still has a physical body.  When Vin became a shard, her body vanished, so if Hoid is a shard why hasn't this happened to him?

I agree that Hoid isn't a shard, but I am almost certain that he uses a shard. Lightweaving.

See there's a problem with that. I don't think he actually Lightweaves. When  he's a storyteller to Siri and Lightsong, he drops a bunch of random things in a way that someone might from someone who used to have Lightweaving, but Siri doesn't receive a vision of the things that occur.

Maybe he is connected to a shard, but the magic doesn't work on a different world? But then that leaves us to ask how he gets from planet to planet.

Then again, all I know of Lightweaving is from the 6 preview chapters from Dragonsteel. 
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on April 14, 2010, 07:34:42 AM

All magics would work on the other worlds provided you knew how to make it happen.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Hibron on April 20, 2010, 03:24:18 PM
Quote
All magics would work on the other worlds provided you knew how to make it happen.

Assuming that you have the proper genetics for it...   ;)

Quote
Ruin's consciousness—separate from his power—isn't a particularly nice being. But you can't much blame him, as there's very little that is left of the mind that once was. The force of Ruin has pretty well molded the mind to fit with the force's intent.

This seemed to relate to some of what you were posting earlier,  so I thought it was worth bringing up.  Not really particularly novel information, but seems like it is worth reminding people about.

Now, on to the focus of my post!

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Kill him, Ruin's voice whispered. You could do it. Take a weapon from one of those soldiers, then use it on Yomen.
A slight tangent occurs where Vin is disturbed that Reen's voice is actually Ruin's.  Then back in:
Quote
She ignored the voice, She wasn't sure why Ruin would want her to try killing Yomen. After all, the Yomen had captured her--the obligator king was working on Ruin's side.

Brandon says this about the chapter (in his annotations):

Quote
Notice that Ruin's voice doesn't come to her until after she puts the earring back in. As she points out later, his telling her to kill isn't as specific as she's interpreting it. He's just sending her a general feeling that she should kill and destroy; his attention is elsewhere at the moment, watching what Spook is doing.
(emphasis added)

Quote
Let's look at the Pool scene. We have one Shard, with a passive mindset, telling Raoden to give up. This is the Shard Pool's influence. But!  Raoden received a vision of an Aon. It seems slightly contradictory to have one Shard telling Raoden to die, and then the other showing him an Aon. This is an interesting duality. One giving him a reason to live, the other wanting him to die. Passion/Tranquility, it could be called?

It seems to me that the Dor Shard and the pool could be the same. (though I actually don't think they are, so I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate. Oh well.) Raoden's mind could just be interpreting the Shard's general feelings and tendencies, but the aon Rao is what it is deliberately sending him.

I dunno. It's just a thought.

The other thing I wanted to mention was a passing confirmation that Ruin and Preservation were humans that predated Scadriel. I've been trying to find it, but I haven't been able to yet. (Grrr. Sometimes I wish that HoA wasn't so darn long). Basicly what it says is that Preservation remembered either what he had once been, or what had once been in general, and wanted it created again. So it seems to me that they were humans from the pre-collapse of Adonalsium, who created humans originally. When Creation shattered, they were some of those who became shards, and remembered what had gone before. Thus all the shards both remember humans (and being human), and the power of the Shards itself has a tendency towards the creation of humans.


Wow. Looking back, this is kind of rambly and not particularly coherent. Oh well. Feel free to poke holes in this.

And yes, I know that some of that was common knowledge.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on April 20, 2010, 06:30:32 PM
Quote
It seems to me that the Dor Shard and the pool could be the same. (though I actually don't think they are, so I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate. Oh well.) Raoden's mind could just be interpreting the Shard's general feelings and tendencies, but the aon Rao is what it is deliberately sending him.

I really, really like the idea that the pool was sending the Shard's general tendencies.

Quote
The other thing I wanted to mention was a passing confirmation that Ruin and Preservation were humans that predated Scadriel.

This is correct. Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial.

Plus, in addition to that, the longer a person is bound to a Shard, the more that person's mind is molded to the Shard's purpose.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Renoard on April 20, 2010, 11:34:04 PM
Which by definition means Sazed is doomed to ambivalence and insanity.  Two opposed forces "molding his (pardon, IT's) mind" and all.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Fireborn on April 21, 2010, 01:24:59 AM
Or they could cancel each other out, leaving Sazed's mind entirely unaffected.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Comatose on April 21, 2010, 05:50:52 PM
Quote
Brandon has said Hoid isn't a shard, but that he is closely related.  He was there when Adonalsium shattered
I'm not saying Hoid is a shard, but that he is the conciousness of all the shards combined: Adonalsium, and thus was present when Adonalism shattered.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Rezo on April 21, 2010, 06:04:53 PM
Quote
Brandon has said Hoid isn't a shard, but that he is closely related.  He was there when Adonalsium shattered
I'm not saying Hoid is a shard, but that he is the conciousness of all the shards combined: Adonalsium, and thus was present when Adonalism shattered.
Or a man who Adonalsium have given a mission to? We still don't know what was behind Adonalsium destruction, so it's hard to guess who Hoid could be.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on April 23, 2010, 02:28:40 AM
Which by definition means Sazed is doomed to ambivalence and insanity.  Two opposed forces "molding his (pardon, IT's) mind" and all.

I've long suspected that Sazed might be affected.  I sure hope neither the power of Ruin nor Preservation is somehow slightly stronger in the new gestalt.

What is Sazed?  I'd say that he is now the balance between Ruin and Preservation.  He will become less and less capable of letting either power get too much influence in the world, but rather focus on keeping things on track.  For the world at large, I would say this is good news.  In the small things, though, it may mean he won't step in to stop things like personal deaths and minor tragedies.

As a Feruchemist, this is probably just enhancing his natural tendencies anyway.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on April 23, 2010, 04:36:09 AM
I've often pondered what kind of God Sazed would be.  I just can't see him asking people to worship him.  I also have this awesome idea of Marsh and Ten Soon acting as his agents on Scadriel, while he keeps track of the bigger picture.  As for minor tragedies, he's wise enough to know that people need minor tragedies to grow.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Fireborn on April 23, 2010, 06:14:50 AM
Brandon has said that when he gets back to Mistborn Marsh'll still be around.  It'll be interesting to see how much of an influence Sazed will have on this relic of a time with a more hostile Ruin consciousness.

What if it turned out that Hoid was EVIL!?  He's always been more passive than anything, thus leaving his actual morality a sort of unanswered question until WoK comes out.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: happyman on April 24, 2010, 03:29:35 AM
I've often pondered what kind of God Sazed would be.  I just can't see him asking people to worship him.  I also have this awesome idea of Marsh and Ten Soon acting as his agents on Scadriel, while he keeps track of the bigger picture.  As for minor tragedies, he's wise enough to know that people need minor tragedies to grow.

Tricky question, this.

They may not need to worship him.  But don't the people need to know the truth about their world in order to make the best of it?  Sazed already started this by dropping a brand new multi-volume set of scriptures on the reborn world, including works on mathematics, engineering and map-making :).  What if people start going in the wrong direction and believing wrong and dangerous theories?
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on April 24, 2010, 06:52:44 AM
Hmm... perhaps worship is the wrong word.  I CAN see him asking people to look to him for guidance and direction, and being sad and upset when they choose to ignore him.  "I understand more than you do! Why don't you listen to me!?"
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on April 24, 2010, 08:11:57 AM
Also, Brandon mentioned something that the events of book three would slowly become myth. You'd probably see religions based on the Survivor, then Vin, etc.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on April 24, 2010, 05:50:30 PM

What if it turned out that Hoid was EVIL!?  He's always been more passive than anything, thus leaving his actual morality a sort of unanswered question until WoK comes out.

Except that he hasn't really been passive. He has delivered weapons and goods to the Elantrians,  given info to Kelsier, led a group of Terrismen from the hunting Inquisitors, tried to give info to Vin (perhaps something about the obligator being an allomancer?), and he gave much-needed information to Siri.

I wouldn't call that Evil. Or passive. Sure he may not be on the front lines, but he's is pushing the heroes toward victory the best way he can.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Fireborn on April 24, 2010, 08:08:47 PM
Hmm, I hadn't really put those things together, and I forgot the bit about leading the Stewards.  Too bad, that would've been an awesome twist. ;D
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Terrisman243 on April 29, 2010, 04:41:09 AM
I've often pondered what kind of God Sazed would be.  I just can't see him asking people to worship him.  I also have this awesome idea of Marsh and Ten Soon acting as his agents on Scadriel, while he keeps track of the bigger picture.  As for minor tragedies, he's wise enough to know that people need minor tragedies to grow.

I think he will ask people to worship him, because that way, he can help them.

Kelsier, when he 'piggy backs' on the power of Preservation for a while, only speaks to Spook, and Spook is the only one of the original crew who has faith in Kelsier. 

Vin, when she gets the power, only speaks to Elend, who has a fundamental trust (perhaps even faith?) that Vin knows what she is doing.

There seems to be a connection between the Spiritual realm and the Cognitive realm, at least between Shards and mortals. If you believe in God, then he can speak to you. If you don't, then he can't.

The reason why Ruin can speak to people is because they either have spikes in them, making them much more of Ruin, or they are crazy, making them more in contact with Chaos, which is related to Ruin.

Hmm. I wonder if Shards speak to anyone in Elantris or Warbreaker. Maybe Hrathen and .... Vivenna? I'll have to look at this some more.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: douglas on April 29, 2010, 05:49:44 AM
Hmm. I wonder if Shards speak to anyone in Elantris or Warbreaker. Maybe Hrathen and .... Vivenna? I'll have to look at this some more.
Endowment speaks to the Returned as I recall, but only in that brief moment between death and Return when it's offering the dead person the opportunity to Return.  This is shown in flashback when Lightsong remembers that moment.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Morderkaine on April 29, 2010, 06:09:44 AM
Hmm. I wonder if Shards speak to anyone in Elantris or Warbreaker. Maybe Hrathen and .... Vivenna? I'll have to look at this some more.
Endowment speaks to the Returned as I recall, but only in that brief moment between death and Return when it's offering the dead person the opportunity to Return.  This is shown in flashback when Lightsong remembers that moment.
yes, endowment gives some people the choice to return when they die and if they say yes he/she/it gives them one uber breath, drains the colour out of them, and commands them to return (just like awakening) and IIRC the pool in Elantris "spoke" to Raoden
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: zas678 on April 30, 2010, 12:21:53 AM
Look what I found in the HoA thread:
Quote
However, now they (The Metallic Arts) are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were.  (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things.  There will also be two kinds of mists.)

Maybe it's not just faith, wells, and spikes.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: KhyEllie on May 04, 2010, 01:56:23 AM
yay, mists!
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on May 04, 2010, 04:37:30 AM
You couldn't exactly call the books "Mistborn" without mists.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Hibron on May 04, 2010, 09:45:30 PM
Can you call them mistborn without mistborn?  ???
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Fireborn on May 06, 2010, 05:00:34 AM
Can you call them mistborn without mistborn?  ???
Ah, but there will be Mistborn, they're just going to be really, desperately rare.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Tegal Savian on May 07, 2010, 05:46:01 AM
Kelsier, when he 'piggy backs' on the power of Preservation for a while, only speaks to Spook, and Spook is the only one of the original crew who has faith in Kelsier.
But it was, in fact, Ruin speaking to Spook through the guise of Kelsier due to the shard of metal Spook was encouraged (by Ruin) to leave within his body) after he was nearly killed.  (Similarly, was Vin encouraged to retain her mother's earring throughout her short life, which Marsh ripped from her as his ultimate rebellion against Ruin ... that solid piece of himself that he retained throughout his transformation from Seeker to Steel Inquisitor.)  For more discussion on this topic (http://www.adonalsium.net/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=305) (and specifically focused on Brandon Sanderson's novels), please join me and many others at www.adonalsium.net!  We are intent on discovering all we might with regard to Brandon's arch from Elantris through The Mistborn Trilogy to Warbreaker and The Stormlight Archive, beginning with The Way of Kings this August!  (Honestly, 8/17/10 can't come soon enough!)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Terrisman243 on May 07, 2010, 06:23:25 AM
Sorry Tegal. It's true that when we actually see Kelsier it's Ruin, but it's Kelsier who tells Spook to send the message.
From the spoiler tag of HoA Annotations 64:
Quote
"You did well, Spook."

Yes, that's Kelsier's voice at the beginning. As I said in a previous annotation, he can't help but meddle.

There is an afterlife in this cosmology I've built, and Kelsier's in it. He never has been able to leave well enough alone. He saw, here, that a piece of the puzzle needed to be put together, so he stepped in and tried to get through to Spook about it.

Spook was the only one in the crew he could speak to. That's because Spook truly has faith in Kelsier as a deity—which, for these few weeks between Preservation's death and the coming of the Hero of Ages, Kelsier is.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Chaos on May 07, 2010, 08:10:09 AM
Kelsier, when he 'piggy backs' on the power of Preservation for a while, only speaks to Spook, and Spook is the only one of the original crew who has faith in Kelsier.
But it was, in fact, Ruin speaking to Spook through the guise of Kelsier due to the shard of metal Spook was encouraged (by Ruin) to leave within his body) after he was nearly killed.  (Similarly, was Vin encouraged to retain her mother's earring throughout her short life, which Marsh ripped from her as his ultimate rebellion against Ruin ... that solid piece of himself that he retained throughout his transformation from Seeker to Steel Inquisitor.)  For more discussion on this topic (http://www.adonalsium.net/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=305) (and specifically focused on Brandon Sanderson's novels), please join me and many others at www.adonalsium.net!  We are intent on discovering all we might with regard to Brandon's arch from Elantris through The Mistborn Trilogy to Warbreaker and The Stormlight Archive, beginning with The Way of Kings this August!  (Honestly, 8/17/10 can't come soon enough!)

Just an FYI, it may be a good idea to keep the advertisements in your signature. No harm done though.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Nightfire107 on May 12, 2010, 07:06:30 AM
Okay so i have read all of brandon's published books and i have a couple questions that would be better found out by just asking them here.
1) What is a Shard
2) The origen of shards are?
3) anything else that you all deem need to know

thanks for future answers.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on May 12, 2010, 10:07:55 AM
Okay so i have read all of brandon's published books and i have a couple questions that would be better found out by just asking them here.
1) What is a Shard
2) The origen of shards are?
3) anything else that you all deem need to know

thanks for future answers.

Welcome to TWG.

Here is a bit of a summary of things you may want to know.

At one point there was a person/thing called Adonalsium.  At some point Hoid (A character who is VERY influential and found in all of the Cosmere universe books [these books include all of his current adult fiction novels]) was around Adonalsium.  When he was there (It is not clear if he caused it or just witnessed it), but Adonalsium shattered and is now in Shards.  These Shards cause lots of things to happen.  Looking through this topic you can find the Shards we know about and the ones that we theorize about.

That is a general break down of what you /need/ to know.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Nightfire107 on May 12, 2010, 11:45:49 PM
Ah gracias.

So does adonalsium break during the bok hoid is introduced in. ( i want to say liar of something)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on May 13, 2010, 02:06:41 AM

I'm not sure.  Brandon's answer to ANYONE wanting to read Liar of Partinel is "I don't like how it turned out and it spoils way too much."

EDIT:  If you dig around enough you can find the first 6 or so chapters of the original version and 3 or so chapters of the rewrite.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Nightfire107 on May 13, 2010, 04:56:59 AM
oooo. Dig where? just a general direction
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on May 13, 2010, 05:23:52 AM

Just like through the forums.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: KhyEllie on May 15, 2010, 03:26:56 AM
yeah, its somewhere in here...i found it a couple weeks ago and it was still there though he said he would take it down...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on May 15, 2010, 04:51:39 AM

Yeah, he forgot to.  ;)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV on May 15, 2010, 05:51:22 AM
Sheesh, I just googled it.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: atlas689 on May 19, 2010, 07:18:31 PM
I'm not sure if this has been said yet or not, but my personal theory is that Hoid is NOT a shard but is rather trying to repair the original shard of adonalsium. If you look back to Mistborn, Elantris, and Warbreaker, Hoid has a small but vital part in repairing the individual shard of each world. In Mistborn you had the out of balance situation between Ruin and Preservation. In Elantris you had the physical harm done to the Dor. In Warbreaker you had the abuse of Endowment via Susebron with the priests. Hoid's actions were very small actions, but they helped in succeeding to repair each Shard. Maybe the original shard of Adonalsium can only be remade when each individual shard is in balance. Its just a theory that is most likely waaaaay off. Thoughts? :)
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Red, White, and Joker on May 19, 2010, 09:13:02 PM
Hoid isn't technically a shard, though by the time you meet him in most books he's bound to one, so it's nearly the same thing.

So Hoid isn't technically a shard, but he is bound to one.

Hoid  (person) is bound to a shard, just like Ati (person) was bound to Ruin (shard), and Leras (Person) was bound to Preservation (shard).

As for trying to repair "the original shard of Adonalsium"(it should just be Adonalsium ;) ), I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he was. How or why, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Troubadour on May 20, 2010, 05:16:19 PM
If he did cause the Shattering, and he is trying to repair it, then suddenly I love his character a whole lot more. A man with the power to kill gods, travelling worlds to make amends for his past. Wonderful.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: atlas689 on May 20, 2010, 11:39:04 PM
Or it could be that Hoid was Adonalsium. Remember when Leras' body fell out of the sky and he was no longer Preservation? Maybe its a similar situation with Hoid, but Hoid survived the "fall". Maybe Hoid/Adonalsium could not hold all that power together and facets of it split off when Adonalsium "fell" and became Hoid.


I'm not sure.  Brandon's answer to ANYONE wanting to read Liar of Partinel is "I don't like how it turned out and it spoils way too much."

EDIT:  If you dig around enough you can find the first 6 or so chapters of the original version and 3 or so chapters of the rewrite.


Are there any other similar digital copies of Brandon's books out there on the net available to the public? I seem to remember reading about something called Dragonmount very late last night and how there was one copy on some type of internet library (not sure how that works).

I personally loved those first 6 chapters of the Liar of Partinel. The world building was insanely intriguing. What I really started to wonder is if there was a sun and sky, or if the entire world was completely white (much like the "load" rooms in the Matrix movies)? One has to imagine that the sky would be white since it would be reflecting the largest mass color (which is the skullmoss).  I didn't like the rewrites very much though.

I understand that most of the concepts in the Liar were cannibalized, but I would give a lot to read more story set in skullmoss land.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Miyabi on May 21, 2010, 12:01:19 AM

You are talking about Dragonsteel.  You have to get it through inter-library-loan in order to read it.

You can get the first three chapters of the revised Liar of Partinel.  Uhm, a few chapters of Scribbler.  I think that's it.  There may be more, but I'm not sure off the top of my head what I saved myself and what was emailed to me.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Fireborn on May 21, 2010, 07:25:33 AM
Or it could be that Hoid was Adonalsium. Remember when Leras' body fell out of the sky and he was no longer Preservation? Maybe its a similar situation with Hoid, but Hoid survived the "fall". Maybe Hoid/Adonalsium could not hold all that power together and facets of it split off when Adonalsium "fell" and became Hoid.

There was no "surviving the fall" the reason that Leras and Ati fell out of the air is because they were dead, the part of the Shard, the Cognitive aspect, that was Leras and Ati versus Preservation and Ruin didn't exist anymore, all the energy gone.  What essentially happened was that their original human bodies appeared with no mind in them.

While it might be possible that Hoid is what is left of Adonalsium, though I doubt it, this is not a valid arguement for that particular opinion.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Renoard on May 29, 2010, 07:08:23 PM
Based on the Laras-ium and Ati-um constructions, I'm thinking that for Hoid to be the original he'd have to be Adonal, and Hoid an Alias.  Though one wonders why it was Adonalsium in the first place and not just, "The Shards of Adonal."

The more I look at it the more I'm reminded of Inuyasha.
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Mike on May 29, 2010, 07:23:46 PM
I don't know if this is really relevant, but the Hebrew name for god is "Adonai", which is pretty close to your "Adonal" naming...
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Terrisman243 on May 29, 2010, 09:36:59 PM
Maybe Adonalsium isn't a person. Maybe it's some super-powerful object with cognitive presence (Sort of like a super-souped up Nightblood). Or maybe without cognitive presence.

2 interacted with directly- Endowment, Pool
1 Seen power, not met- Dor/Jaddeth
1 seen influence, not met- Austre (there are a number of 3rd person promptings in Warbreaker) Or, it could be Hoid and whatever    shard he's with(Restoration?).
Title: Re: **SPOILERS! The Shards of Adonalsium
Post by: Renoard on May 30, 2010, 12:30:26 AM
I don't know if this is really relevant, but the Hebrew name for god is "Adonai", which is pretty close to your "Adonal" naming...

Minor pendantic point but `adoni means "your lord" as in the generic for a nobel who has rank and authority over you.  The name if God which has no correct pronunciation key is the four letters yod, hey, vav and hey.  An alternative name with Assyrian origins is El, the most powerful name being El Shaddai (God the Irresistible Plowing/Cutting/Dividing Force).  Elohyim is a plural meaning Celestial Beings but as a corporate entity.

Adonai is a good analogue to Sanderson's "Lord Ruler".

I'd be more inclined to think he Got Adonalsium from looking at the words Adonus and Adonai and trying to find something unique that hinted at them.