Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Valkynphyre on July 02, 2009, 05:39:36 AM
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**Spoilers**
Galad and the First of Mayene fall in love. Gawyn Marries Egwene. Elaida Dies, The Dark One's prison is perfectly sealed, and, oh yeah, RAND DIES! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.
(It must be true, we wants it to happen)
(also, i remember a poem about Rand written by the late Robert Jordan and posted after his death on his blog by his wife.
He came like the wind/ (something about like the wind moved the world or changed it irrevocable (quote please?))/ And then, like the wind was gone.)
also, Nyneave remains hot tempered and awesome, Noal is revealed as Jain Farstrider, Mat and Noal rescue Moiraine From Finnland (I start to dislike the series ever so slightly as a direct result), and Mat loses an eye.
What did i miss, and what are your theories?
Also, am I a terrible person?
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Mat shoots his eye out with a Red Rider cannon.
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For reasons totaly unrelated to your unreasonable hate for the coolest character in WoT you are a terrible person...something to do with liking nyneave....
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Nah, I don't hate Rand or Moiraine, They're both incredible characters which I'm fond of. But Rand needs to die for the sake of fulfilling Min's visions, and Moiraine needs to stay trapped because i really dislike it when characters are brought back from the dead. It's too... ummmm.. I don't think Deus Ex Machina is what I'm meaning, but I can't think of a better term.
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Nah, I don't hate Rand or Moiraine, They're both incredible characters which I'm fond of. But Rand needs to die for the sake of fulfilling Min's visions, and Moiraine needs to stay trapped because i really dislike it when characters are brought back from the dead. It's too... ummmm.. I don't think Deus Ex Machina is what I'm meaning, but I can't think of a better term.
But she never died! Her "death" was not on-screen, there was no a priori reason to think falling through the ter'angreal would kill her, and there was solid foreshadowing that she was still alive. People have been speculating about a return ever since she left.
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Yeah, but if Lanfear died, she should have died, it's just that simple.
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We don't know how and when Lanfear died, all we know is that she did die. The Finns could have killed her and not Moiraine. Moiraine had knowledge on what was going to happen and so, we can assume, took precautions. Lanfear didn't know that was going to happen, and as well as being one of the Forsaken (which might have been enough for the Finns to kill her), she could have had something that was offensive to the Finns, like iron.
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Yeah, but if Lanfear died, she should have died, it's just that simple.
What necrenos said. Long story short, we don't know that the fall through the ter'angreal is what killed Lanfear. If it was something else (as seems extremely likely), that Lanfear died at some point is irrelevant.
I fully expect Moiraine to have been alive the entire time. The only reason the characters assumed she was dead was because Lan's warder bond was broken.
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To expand on what happyman said, Moiraine could have made it so that her bond passed when she went through the doorway. We don't know if Lan's bond was ever broken. One minute he could feel her through the bond, and the next he could feel someone else.
Moiraine knew a lot of things and, I'm guessing, one of them was how to make the bond pass, not when she died (as assumed) but when she left the world of Randland to another (Finnland in this case, but it could have been to another using a portal stone).
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We know that bonds can be seen (the link to the dark one) by some people and that they are like strings connecting people. It is easily possible that they bond to land was severed when the doorway was destroyed then.
As for the Finns killing Lanfear, I find that very likely as they seem to have an aversion to anything with a connection to the shadow. Or at least the other ones did and you had to be careful to not ask them questions connected with the dark one.
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So after reading Chapters 1 and the prologue any new theories as to what's going to happen next?
Here's a quote from the Dragonmount review of TGS:
There is a scene towards the middle of the book that was so dramatic and intense, that I … I don’t even know to say it. As a long time fan of the novels, it rocked me to read it. I had to set the book down and let it soak in. Remember the intensity of Dumai’s Wells at the end of Lord of Chaos? This is like that, minus the armies. . I am certain that in the years ahead, we’ll run polls on DM for the “Best Scenes in the Series”, and this will be one of the popular choices. Trust me. You’ll know it when you read it.
In the prologue, the Forsaken (sorry I'm horrible at remembering names) are going to make Rand hurt. Rand is also losing his mind just a little bit and is having trouble controlling Saiden. I think this is pointing towards someone close to Rand getting killed, Min perhaps. Maybe the Forsaken will kill him/her or Rand will accidentally kill him/her. That would stir the waters if it were to happen don't you think?
I think that it was Ookla and Bookstore that said that Rand wasn't going insane, and the more I think about it the more I think that there right. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I think Rand suffers from split personalities. He's accepted that he's the Dragon Reborn, but not that he's Lews Therin Reborn.
I think that's what Cadsuane is going to help him with. She's going to help Rand understand that Rand is Lews and Lews is Rand, that Lews isn't trying to take over Rand, but that their the same person. When that happens he'll probably have to learn to grieve and forgive himself. Cadsuane is kind of a mother figure, so she's perfect for the part, and then Rand can be happy.
What are your thoughts? Any other theories out there?
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1. For a bond to pass to a when all parties are still living all said parties must be together (mentioned in KoD about Nyneave getting Lan's Bond)...under normal circumstances i believe the Finn's doorway being destroyed "broadend the gap" between the worlds severing the bond
2. Cadsuane better darn well teach Rand to cry and laugh again...nothing else matters
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1. For a bond to pass to a when all parties are still living all said parties must be together (mentioned in KoD about Nyneave getting Lan's Bond)...under normal circumstances i believe the Finn's doorway being destroyed "broadend the gap" between the worlds severing the bond
2. Cadsuane better darn well teach Rand to cry and laugh again...nothing else matters
Whatever Cadsuane teaches Rand, I think will result in Lews and Rand finally melding into one conscience. But before that happens something traumatic needs to happen to knock Rand down a few steps. I don't think that it'll be anything physical because he lost his hand and it didn't phase him, that's why I think someone close to him will die. That would get him thinking, what's the point. That would open the door for Cadsuane to walk in and counsel him.
If Rand is going to laugh again, he's going to need to forgive himself at some point. Maybe when he has Lews memories at his disposal he'll see everything in a different light?
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Not a likely theory but a plausable scenario. Elayne dies in child birth, Rand blames himself for knocking her up, remembers how to cry, and because Rand blames himself for Elayne's death (like LTT does for Illyena's) he finnally excepts that he is LTT reborn.
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So after reading Chapters 1 and the prologue any new theories as to what's going to happen next?
The Prologue changed my thoughts on Min's vision in LoC of Rand and another man touching and merging. I thought it was LTT and Rand, but now I think it's Moridin and Rand. It would actually be really nice symmetry to the entire story. WoT opens with a scene between LTT and Ishy and ends with a scene with Moridin and Rand...two souls "reborn" into new bodies.
For Moiraine, we've had immense foreshadowing that she's going to make it out of Finnland alive. My bet is that seeing her is what breaks through Rand's neurosis and teaches him to laugh and cry again. This won't happen until Towers of Midnight (is it too early to start calling it ToM yet?). Oh yeah, and then we find out that Moiraine killed Asmodean because the Finn in Tear told her to do it, so that Rand could start the Black Tower :D. On a more probable note, I also bet Cadsuane will die and Nynaeve will take her place as Rand's advisor.
Other predictions: Rand's alliance with the Seanchan will happen in this book, with Tuon and Tylee's connections to Mat and Perrin playing a key role. Semirhage will escape thanks to an as-of-yet unknown darkfriend in Rand's camp. The two Aes Sedai factions are reunified, thanks to the Ajah heads and something involving Gawyn. My loony theory is that Siuan is somehow restored as Amyrlin and all records of the break and Elaida and Egwene as Amyrlin are sealed in the 13th Depository. Mat and Perrin probably have minimal roles. Mat maybe makes it to the Tower of Ghenji, Perrin probably runs into Galad's Whitecloak faction. Elayne also will get minimal screentime and I bet her coronation doesn't go as smoothly as expected...
One thing we haven't seen yet is the Shadow openly ruling anywhere. I think TGS may be the book where one of the Forsaken comes out into the open.
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Also in the prologue it mentions Moridin flexing his left hand, and that Rand can sometimes still feel his left hand. Rand and Moridin are merging due to to their balefires touching. One of the Forsaken even mentions that he stands like Rand now. Rand's body will die, but he won't
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**Spoilers**
What did i miss, and what are your theories?
Perrin ditches Faile and marries Tylee instead (the prologue revealed that Tylee has a crush on Perrin)
Moiraine marries Thom and they both miss Tarmon Gaidon 'cause they are on honeymoon.
...
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When I read the glossary for LoC, saw that there was an entry for Moiraine Damodred, and it was something along the lines of, "An Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah, supposedly dead," that was more than enough to tell me that she was coming back at some point. Which made me very happy, because Moiraine = Awesome.
Just a thought, but for Min's viewings about Rand's not death (however that works) to work out, all three of his Wonder Girls have to stay alive. So it won't be any of them. That leaves Nynaeve as the only other person I can think of that's particularly close to him. I hope she dies. That would make me very, very happy.
If Cadsuane died, I'd be quite thoroughly depressed. She's pretty awesome, in my opinion. Although she can be a tad annoying at times.
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When I read the glossary for LoC, saw that there was an entry for Moiraine Damodred, and it was something along the lines of, "An Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah, supposedly dead," that was more than enough to tell me that she was coming back at some point. Which made me very happy, because Moiraine = Awesome.
Just a thought, but for Min's viewings about Rand's not death (however that works) to work out, all three of his Wonder Girls have to stay alive. So it won't be any of them. That leaves Nynaeve as the only other person I can think of that's particularly close to him. I hope she dies. That would make me very, very happy.
If Cadsuane died, I'd be quite thoroughly depressed. She's pretty awesome, in my opinion. Although she can be a tad annoying at times.
Perhaps Cadsuane teaches Rand to cry (or laugh) by dying. Ooh I would love that.
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When I read the glossary for LoC, saw that there was an entry for Moiraine Damodred, and it was something along the lines of, "An Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah, supposedly dead," that was more than enough to tell me that she was coming back at some point. Which made me very happy, because Moiraine = Awesome.
Just a thought, but for Min's viewings about Rand's not death (however that works) to work out, all three of his Wonder Girls have to stay alive. So it won't be any of them. That leaves Nynaeve as the only other person I can think of that's particularly close to him. I hope she dies. That would make me very, very happy.
If Cadsuane died, I'd be quite thoroughly depressed. She's pretty awesome, in my opinion. Although she can be a tad annoying at times.
I thought about Min's visions also. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Min's ability to have "future viewings" has never been explained. We've been under the impression that there always right because they've always been right up until now. Now that the end is near, and the dead are getting up and walking around, maybe now her visions won't be quite as accurate.
Even if you don't follow all the visions and prophecies, I think most people get the feeling that this series is headed for a pretty clean, clear cut ending. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe all her visions will be 100% accurate, no one dies, and everyone lives happily ever after at the end. However, I believe every good story has several unexpected twists in the end. With the end near, the authors are starting to show that what was isn't necessarily what will be.
This series went from 3 books to 6 to 12, 13 briefly, and finally to 14 book, so if RJ was planning on axing characters in the final battle he would have have to of dragged them along until the final book. The thing is, even if several major characters would die, you could still have a big going away party in the dream world.
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If min's viewings stop coming true, about 3/4 of the foreshadowing goes down the drain. We can no longer trust what she says, and have to reevaluate everything.
Aside from that, there's plenty of evidence that all 3 girls survive. The wise ones have a dream about it, and Nicola has a foretelling.
Oh, and Nynaeve doesn't die either. Yesterday I saw a quote from RJ stating that he had known what the final scene of the series was since before he started writing, and Nynaeve was in it.
We know Mat and Tuon don't die, since one of the outriggers is based on them.
Anyone else is fair game.
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Perrin isn't fair game either, "If one strand is cut from the pattern all three are cut."
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That could theoretically only apply up until the Last Battle, though. If one of them isn't there, they'll all die. That said, if Rand dies of old age, Mat and Perrin won't spontaneously collapse. So if Perrin died in the last battle, it might work out.
That said, I think it fairly likely that he'll survive Tarmon Gaidon.
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Personally, I don't expect to see everybody die, or everybody live ... I think somewhere around 50% of the main characters surviving might be a pretty good balance. I do expect Rand to die ... I think he's going to have to pretty much sacrifice himself to save the world. And I can live with that, though I will kind of admit, sucks to be him.
In a way, it would be kind of interesting, after all of Lan's carping about leaving a widow in the first book or two, if Lan ended up surviving, while Nynaeve died. Not saying I want to see it, just it would be a slightly interesting twist, looked at from that angle.
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I want to see that!!! After all "Death is lighter than a feather. Duty is heavier than a mountain." And somehow Lan always finds a duty to live for. The funny thing is it may be he swings full circle and ends up instead of "vengenace for what can not be protected" that his war ends and he gets his crown.
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For the in-depth discussion go to Dragonmount, I can't recall everything but they're pretty sure Rand lives.
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For the in-depth discussion go to Dragonmount, I can't recall everything but they're pretty sure Rand lives.
Rand constantly going around thinking he's going to die is exactly the kind of irony Jordan likes to play with.
There are three (IIRC) relevant passages: the "blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" line from the Prophesies. Nicola and Min's foretelling Rand's women around his funeral bier, and the "to live, you must die" line from the Finn. Rand takes these to mean that he's going to die.
However, though Rand is certain he's not going to last past Tarmon Gai'don, he's probably misinterpreting "die" to mean literal death. Another possibility is figurative death--Rand plays dead for a while as he goes into hiding--kind of like he's already been doing since capturing Illian, but even more so.
Yet another option is that Rand's body fails (thus fulfilling the "blood on the rocks" bit), but his soul continues in Moridin's body (or something like that).
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The Body Swap theory. Min also see's Rand as a beggar with a cane. This is after the viewing of the 3 women over the funeral bier.
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The point is, Rand will in some way survive the Last Battle. Like you say, the fact that virtually everyone is sure he's going to die pretty much guarantees that. And there are plenty of possibilities for ways it could happen.
So I'd say that the big 3 are out, as well as Rand's 3 wonder girls, Nynaeve, and Tuon. Good possibilities for death are, in my opinion: Lan (He's pretty much screwed if I'm right), Egwene, Moiraine (after all, she's already been dead for 6 books), Virtually any of the other Aes Sedai and Asha'man, Bashere (has to die for Perrin to get Broken Crown, same goes for Tenobia), Gawyn (but only if Egwene doesn't die. If she dies, he'll survive so Jordan can show us Gawyn's reaction), Virtually all of the Aiel Clan chiefs, a couple of Kings/Queens (like Alliandre and perhaps whoever it is that's running Arad Doman these days aside from Graendal), and (just a guess) Narishma (He's toast. Doesn't stand a chance. He's going to be running around close to Rand and using Callandor. Doesn't sound like the best option to stay alive....).
Other characters who I would guess are safe include Logain (his whole glory thing), Faile (Perrin doesn't get the Broken Crown without her... I think), Galad, Berelain, That one guy whose name escapes me who Rand made King of Tear, and Morgase.
Now this is all based off of what I want to happen / my general hunches. There are only a few that are based in fact. For instance, while I really want to see Egwene die, and it's possible for it to happen (and would be a great scene too), there's absolutely no proof that it will. I don't think that there's any viewings of her beyond the last battle, though, so she probably could.
One of the more interesting ideas I've seen is that Graendal, in her attempts to emotionally hurt Rand, tries to attack Min. She can't kill her (as per various viewings and prophecies), but she could seriously injure and/or maim her. That would really freak Rand out. I almost hope it happens. It could definitely spark a moment like the one on the cover of TGS (though this one would actually be cool, as opposed to cheesy).
Wow, there are way too many parentheses in that post. Oh well. You all love them!
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I would have a hard time with the ending if Rand doesn't die. Here's a guy that's been built up to be god-like if not a god. He's been sent to battle the Dark One, and people are scared to even say the DO's name. If he wins and lives, he's king of the world, god of the world. If people were scared of the DO they'd be petrified of the Dragon Reborn who defeated the DO, IMO. It's not like Rand is viewed favorably by the general public, he's not looked upon as a hero, more of a necessary evil. Rand is one of my favorite characters I don't want him to die, but the thought of the series ending with him being a king, farmer, or beggar isn't satisfying to me. He was born for war he'd be out of place in a time of peace, IMHO.
This entire series is built upon the belief that certain characters are reborn to do certain tasks. You can even talk to some of the characters before they're reborn in the dream world (Birgette Silverbow as an example). I think it would be a shame not to use those elements to create a dramatic conclusion. It's another reason why I'd find an ending with Rand surviving to be less than satisfying.
One of the more interesting ideas I've seen is that Graendal, in her attempts to emotionally hurt Rand, tries to attack Min. She can't kill her (as per various viewings and prophecies), but she could seriously injure and/or maim her. That would really freak Rand out. I almost hope it happens. It could definitely spark a moment like the one on the cover of TGS (though this one would actually be cool, as opposed to cheesy).
That's an interesting thought. That would freak him out, and it would be a nice intro into a big battle scene.
On a different note, I have a question about the prologue, so if you haven't read it you may not want to read any further.
In the prologue there's a scene where a blacksmith and his wife come over a hill, and it's told that his father fought in the Aiel War, and he doesn't wear a top-knot anymore. The blacksmith then tells a farmer that he's heading north where an army is assembling, and a battle will take place. Doesn't Lan have a top-knot too? I'm just wondering if this is the beginning of Lan's kingdom being reborn again, or if I'm just misremembering things?
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No, it's not referring to Lan, as Lan is Malkieri, and the top-knot is strictly a Shienar thing. However, the army that will be gathering in the north (though apparently it isn't yet) could very well be Lan's, preparing to meet the Shadow in Tarwin's Gap, where, in my opinion, Lan and most of his army will get slaughtered.
As to the rest, there's no way Rand will become the King of the World. If nothing else, Rand has absolutely no desire to rule the world. He just wants to unify the world enough to beat the DO.
I imagine Rand will live, but no one will know that he lives except for Min, Aviendha, Elayne, and Allana (If she's still alive, which I kind of doubt). Rand won't be particularly inclined to correct this impression.
Basically, Rand will want a simple life. So a farmer or a beggar makes sense, though in my opinion a farmer makes more sense.
Rand as he is right now would indeed be out of place in a time of peace. But remember, Rand hasn't always been like this, and he's going to go through some major psychological changes in the near future (ie learning laughter and tears, etc). He could pull it.
But if Rand dying is the ONLY way you'll be satisfied, as things stand there's a good chance that you'll be disappointed.
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I will be very surprised if Rand does not survive. The quote from the Finns about "if you would live, you must die" and Min's viewing that Alivia will "help Rand die" are two giant hints about what's going to happen with him. Rand is going to "die" in a way that somehow makes it possible for him to live past the Last Battle. This may involve a metaphorical meaning of the word "die", soul/body swapping with someone (Moridin?), Nynaeve healing him from death, or any number of other possibilities, but I think it's practically guaranteed to happen given all the various prophecies, foretellings, viewings, etc. related to it.
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I agree. He probably won't survive in the traditional sense of the word. But in some way, he will.
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99% of the Aiel die not just the chiefs, Lan lives just cuz he will want to die when his wifey does, Narishma dies but takes down some forsaken doing so (come on he has Callondar) Rand dies just because everyone thinks he won't...twice! Galad kills Faine to avenge Rand though Rand is now in Moridins bod. Galad dies. Rand/ Moridin dies in the sealing of the prison, i say Luc does it. Lan kills Luc, b/c his brother lives in him. The White Tower is destroyed (I hate Aes Sedai as a whole b/c how they think little of Ashaman when the Hall of Servants was composed of both sexes.) Cadsuane dies b/c she is old. Loial i want to die against Shadar Haran, with Loial getting swatted away like nothing, which then has huge effect on everyone else (doubt Loial dies at all though).
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My friend and I were talking about Slayer and Lan. We think it will come down to a fight in Tel'aran'rhiod.
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No, it's not referring to Lan, as Lan is Malkieri, and the top-knot is strictly a Shienar thing. However, the army that will be gathering in the north (though apparently it isn't yet) could very well be Lan's, preparing to meet the Shadow in Tarwin's Gap, where, in my opinion, Lan and most of his army will get slaughtered.
As to the rest, there's no way Rand will become the King of the World. If nothing else, Rand has absolutely no desire to rule the world. He just wants to unify the world enough to beat the DO.
I imagine Rand will live, but no one will know that he lives except for Min, Aviendha, Elayne, and Allana (If she's still alive, which I kind of doubt). Rand won't be particularly inclined to correct this impression.
Basically, Rand will want a simple life. So a farmer or a beggar makes sense, though in my opinion a farmer makes more sense.
Rand as he is right now would indeed be out of place in a time of peace. But remember, Rand hasn't always been like this, and he's going to go through some major psychological changes in the near future (ie learning laughter and tears, etc). He could pull it.
But if Rand dying is the ONLY way you'll be satisfied, as things stand there's a good chance that you'll be disappointed.
Nah, the only way I can think that I'm going to be disappointed in the ending is if it ends with a HUGE cliffhanger. I just love this series! I also can't wait until BS's next series comes out, so we can have more discussions like this about another ongoing series.
It's not like I'm expecting RJ to become GRRM in the next couple books. I do believe that Rand and others will live on in some sense of the word, but not in the typical sense. I mentioned this before somewhere on this site, but this is how I kind of think it's going to end: Rand and several others will die in the last battle, everything will look bleak, and then Mat will blow the Horn of Valere, and Rand and everyone else will be resurrected and defeat the DO. This will give everyone a chance to say good byes after the battle is won. Then the series ends on a high note.
Have you ever watched the Godfather?? A Godfather ending would be cool too, but this ending doesn't have a chance of being true. Rand battles the DO and win, but in doing so loses everything. The series ends with Rand staring over a battlefield of corpses wondering, what has he done. Oh, I almost forgot, Mat and Tuon would be staring back at him in horror before they turn and ride off into the sunset. A little bleak, but it would work.
Andrew the Great got me thinking and I think he's right. Min won't die, but will get seriously injured/maimed which I think will be more painful for Rand to deal with. That is when Rand runs away and hides as a beggar. Then Cadsuane finds him and teaches him what needs to be taught.
One more thing, Rand has three wives so if he lives I think 2 of them have to die. I suppose it could end with him having three wives, but that just seems kind of messy to me. None of the women seem compatible with each other, you have a queen, an Aiel, and a woman who sees things, so if Rand does survive two of them have to go boots up, IMO. I use the term "wives" loosley BTW.
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Perhaps Rand dying but becoming one of the dream world characters (like birgitte) is a nice way to fulfill the "the live he must die" or whatever it was thingie?
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Perhaps Rand dying but becoming one of the dream world characters (like birgitte) is a nice way to fulfill the "the live he must die" or whatever it was thingie?
I think the Dragon (i.e. not Rand, but the soul in Rand's body) is one of these types. One interpretation of "to live, you must die" is just that--in order for the Dragon to be spun out the next cycle of the Wheel (and thus for the turning of the Wheel to continue, Rand (the physical person whom the Dragon's soul is inhabiting) must die.
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That doesn't really make sense, though, since Rand's question to the Aelfinn was "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?" I suppose they could have taken it to mean how can I, the soul of the dragon, survive, but I think its much more likely to be taken how can I, Rand al'Thor, survive. Ya know?
Andrew the Great got me thinking and I think he's right. Min won't die, but will get seriously injured/maimed which I think will be more painful for Rand to deal with. That is when Rand runs away and hides as a beggar. Then Cadsuane finds him and teaches him what needs to be taught.
One more thing, Rand has three wives so if he lives I think 2 of them have to die. I suppose it could end with him having three wives, but that just seems kind of messy to me. None of the women seem compatible with each other, you have a queen, an Aiel, and a woman who sees things, so if Rand does survive two of them have to go boots up, IMO. I use the term "wives" loosley BTW.
First of all, just call me Andrew. Much easier for everyone involved ;)
Secondly, glad to have got you thinking.
What I really wanted to discuss though, is your last paragraph. I can see all of them dealing with each other, seeing as they seem to have resigned themselves to sharing Rand. Aviendha has no problems with it, and Elayne and Min seem to have given up on having him to themselves. The problem I foresee is that if everyone does survive the last battle, Rand isn't going to want to rule the world, or much of anything for that matter. Elayne, however will be Queen of Andor, and the mother at some of his children. So that's gonna be an issue for Rand, in my mind. He's not gonna want to deal with the politics, but at the same time he's not gonna just leave Elayne and the kids behind and go live with Min and Aviendha....
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That doesn't really make sense, though, since Rand's question to the Aelfinn was "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?" I suppose they could have taken it to mean how can I, the soul of the dragon, survive, but I think its much more likely to be taken how can I, Rand al'Thor, survive. Ya know?
Andrew the Great got me thinking and I think he's right. Min won't die, but will get seriously injured/maimed which I think will be more painful for Rand to deal with. That is when Rand runs away and hides as a beggar. Then Cadsuane finds him and teaches him what needs to be taught.
One more thing, Rand has three wives so if he lives I think 2 of them have to die. I suppose it could end with him having three wives, but that just seems kind of messy to me. None of the women seem compatible with each other, you have a queen, an Aiel, and a woman who sees things, so if Rand does survive two of them have to go boots up, IMO. I use the term "wives" loosley BTW.
First of all, just call me Andrew. Much easier for everyone involved ;)
Secondly, glad to have got you thinking.
What I really wanted to discuss though, is your last paragraph. I can see all of them dealing with each other, seeing as they seem to have resigned themselves to sharing Rand. Aviendha has no problems with it, and Elayne and Min seem to have given up on having him to themselves. The problem I foresee is that if everyone does survive the last battle, Rand isn't going to want to rule the world, or much of anything for that matter. Elayne, however will be Queen of Andor, and the mother at some of his children. So that's gonna be an issue for Rand, in my mind. He's not gonna want to deal with the politics, but at the same time he's not gonna just leave Elayne and the kids behind and go live with Min and Aviendha....
When I said that Rand would be king or god-like if he survived I didn't actually mean that he would want to be a king or god. I agree with you that he's not going to want to be king or anything, he'll probably wish no one even knew his name. I think that regardless if what he wants, everyone will perceive him as a king or a god. Of course, once he gets all his memories back he may have a different world outlook. Maybe Rand and Egwene get together and merge both the White and Black Towers together, and Rand sits atop with Egwene. I don't know about that one though...that seems too much like a fairy tale to me. Rand would need to do a 180 in my mind for that ending to happen, and I'm not sure I would buy it if he did.
Of the three, Min is the one that he cares about the most IMO because he needs her by him. Aviendha I think, is the one he cares for the least because I think he's getting burnt out on battles and she's from a warrior society. Elayne would fall in the middle somewhere. I'm not necessarily saying he loves one more than the other, just that if he had to rank them 1 through 3 it would be Min, Elayne, Aviendha. In other words, I think it would be a mess if they all survive.
Let's just say that Rand accidentally kills Min. That would be a good way of showing how the Wheel of Time is cyclical, don't you think, since Lews Therin accidentally killed Illeyna? That way if he lives he chooses between Elayne and Aviendha, and if he dies he lives in the Dream World with Min. This entire scenario confuses me, especially if everyone survives.
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Rand killing Min doesn't prove anything...the Age of Legends vs. the 3rd Age are half a wheel turn apart not a whole turn. As to "if he had to rank them" he doesn't and couldn't the golden threads prove that. Not to mention that RJ shows us that he wants the other 2 to block out their bonds when he is screwing the third, b/c Mrs. third is the only person in the world at that moment.
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Rand killing Min doesn't prove anything...the Age of Legends vs. the 3rd Age are half a wheel turn apart not a whole turn. As to "if he had to rank them" he doesn't and couldn't the golden threads prove that. Not to mention that RJ shows us that he wants the other 2 to block out their bonds when he is screwing the third, b/c Mrs. third is the only person in the world at that moment.
Isn't it so that the wheel has 7 spokes or something and the age of legends and the current age are just one spoke apart? Not half a turn of the wheel by far? I think this Herid Fell (or something, the philosopher guy Min liked) explained some stuff about that...
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Rand killing Min doesn't prove anything...the Age of Legends vs. the 3rd Age are half a wheel turn apart not a whole turn. As to "if he had to rank them" he doesn't and couldn't the golden threads prove that. Not to mention that RJ shows us that he wants the other 2 to block out their bonds when he is screwing the third, b/c Mrs. third is the only person in the world at that moment.
Isn't it so that the wheel has 7 spokes or something and the age of legends and the current age are just one spoke apart? Not half a turn of the wheel by far? I think this Herid Fell (or something, the philosopher guy Min liked) explained some stuff about that...
I second this notion. I'm a big fan of the idea that the fourth age will be radically different from either the Age of Myths (implied to be similar to our world), the Age of Legends, or the Third Age. People expecting the Age of Legends to come back, in my mind, seriously underestimate the scope of the series' cosmology.
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How did i imply the AoL was coming back soon? AoL and the third age are about as far apart as ancient egypt is from the modern era... and i believe the age of legends is more than one spoke away otherwise Rand is reborn several times a wheel turn and that he only gets screwed into being the creators champion 2 of the times.
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Oops. I was more directly responding to this, which I believe TMan was also referring to, and which seems to underestimate just how long it takes the wheel to turn:
Let's just say that Rand accidentally kills Min. That would be a good way of showing how the Wheel of Time is cyclical, don't you think, since Lews Therin accidentally killed Illeyna? That way if he lives he chooses between Elayne and Aviendha, and if he dies he lives in the Dream World with Min. This entire scenario confuses me, especially if everyone survives.
Sorry, Kaz.
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and i believe the age of legends is more than one spoke away otherwise Rand is reborn several times a wheel turn and that he only gets screwed into being the creators champion 2 of the times.
Where did you get that idea from? The series is quite explicitly clear that one spoke of the Wheel = one Age, and the only Ages mentioned specifically are "the Age before the Age of Legends" (mostly minor references), the Age of Legends, the Third Age (which the series is set in), and the Fourth Age (which will begin after Tarmon Gai'don). The Breaking of the World ended the Age of Legends and began the Third Age. If there were an Age between the two, there would have been a large number of references to it. There are, instead, precisely zero such references.
Also, there is no evidence either way on whether Rand is reborn in any ages other than the AoL and the Third Age, or that if he is born in any other ages he does not end up being the Creator's champion in those ages as well.
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Personally, I don't think we have ever been told for certain whether the Dark One comes close to breaking free on more than one occasion, or whether this is a unique situation.
The Dark One seems to think it is ... from his talk about breaking the wheel and ending the circle of time, it sounds like he kind of managed a coup when he got Lanfear to bring others in and actually drill a hole in his prison ... and even though the Dragon and the 100 companions managed to seal him back in, it isn't as good as the prison the Creator originally had him in.
Now you want an interesting question ... there are 100 companions, and I seem to recall from somewhere that there are 100 bound to the horn. Coincidence, or are they supposed to be the same 100? I got the impression that the 100 companions were males wielding the One Power, and I got the impression that many of those bound to the Wheel do not wield the OP. I think we can be fairly sure Artur Hawkwing doesn't use the OP, and it sure didn't sound like Gaiden Cain or Brigitta did. (You'll have to pardon me on some of these names.)
By the way, how often can the horn get used? It sounds like people only expect it to be used for the last battle, but Mat uses it early. And when Hartwing appears, he doesn't seem at all surprised or anything.
How often do people get spun back out into the pattern again? I don't recall hearing anything that could be taken as any kind of proof positive that people can't be spun out more than once in an age, or anything that says they have to be spun out once in an age.
It'll be interesting to see what else comes out in the next book, anyway.
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I believe i heard AoL is the first age from wotmania. Which would make sense b/c it's been what 10k years since the breaking which lasted several generations. Plus there is one major taavern for each age LTT= 1st Artur Hawking = 2nd Rand = 3rd.
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I thought it was about 3K years since the breaking, 1K since Hawkwing.
Now admittedly, LTT was taveren at the end of the last age, and Rand is at the end of this age, but Hawkwing was in the middle of this age, and there is nothing to say there weren't more major ones that we haven't heard of.
I think we get three MAJOR taveren this time, because the pattern has such a large issue to try to overcome with the DO.
But who can say for sure ... we've been told much, but there is also much that we have not been told.
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Either you misread something or are misremembering it. The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age. The Age before the Age of Legends was the 1st Age, and there are a number of hints that it is the present day modern world. The events surrounding Artur Hawkwing's rise and his empire's collapse are nowhere near major enough to be an Age transition.
Major ta'veren happen whenever the pattern needs them, which depends entirely on what's happening in the world and how closely it corresponds to what's "supposed" to happen, and sometimes on whether any major world changing events are supposed to be coming up.
The intervals are 1000 years from the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars, 1000 years from the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing, and 1000 years from Artur Hawkwing to Rand. Quite a number of ta'veren came along in those 3000 years, some of them major, Hawkwing was just the most major of them before Rand. In any case, while both the Trolloc Wars and the collapse of Hawkwing's empire were major historical events, neither of them is anywhere near as cataclysmic as a true Age transition. Compare either of them to the Breaking of the World or Tarmon Gai'don and they just don't measure up. Changing from one Age to another is Serious Business, and continent-wide but otherwise mostly mundane warfare is not sufficient, and if it were we would have seen several references to those periods being different Ages rather than the actual total of 0.
Oh, and before you say anything about the regularity of the 1000 year intervals, that's due to Ishamael's release cycle, not the Wheel turning. Ishamael was only partly bound, with about 40 years of freedom every 1000 years. He was free for some time immediately after the Sealing of the Bore, was free 1000 years later and started the Trolloc Wars, and was free again to become Artur Hawkwing's adviser and turn him against the White Tower, set up the Seanchan, and ensure his empire's collapse. If Tarmon Gai'don weren't coming, he would be free again about this time anyway to unleash some new nastiness on civilization, and all of this has nothing to do with Age transitions or the length of the Wheel's spokes.
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Now you want an interesting question ... there are 100 companions, and I seem to recall from somewhere that there are 100 bound to the horn. Coincidence, or are they supposed to be the same 100? I got the impression that the 100 companions were males wielding the One Power, and I got the impression that many of those bound to the Wheel do not wield the OP. I think we can be fairly sure Artur Hawkwing doesn't use the OP, and it sure didn't sound like Gaiden Cain or Brigitta did. (You'll have to pardon me on some of these names.)
You're impression is correct, most heroes bound to wheel cannot channel. (FYI there were actually 113 companions, however, Lews Therin and his 113 companions just doesn't have the same ring ;-))
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Douglas,
I agree with most of what you said. (Of course. Your figures pretty much match up with what I read, so why wouldn't I agree.)
I do have to ask, though ... is the last paragraph just rampant speculation? I never saw anything in my readings to indicate such a thing. Understand, it kind of fits, and might work, but I've never read anything to actually indicate such.
All,
I know we've have a few spoilers in this thread, but shouldn't we get busy and make a few spilers as well, just so the thread title can be accurate?
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That last paragraph about Ishamael is based mostly on some things from the Big Book of Bad Art, also known as The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There are, however, some significant hints of it in the series proper. For example, in the Rhuidean history sequence, there's mention of an Aes Sedai who claims early in the Breaking that Ishamael is still free. I think Ishamael in his guise as Ba'alzamon claims credit, maybe in one of the dreams he plagues the ta'veren trio with early on, for the Trolloc Wars and for Artur Hawkwing's hatred of Aes Sedai. He was also free to a significant degree in TEotW before any of the other Forsaken showed up, and had already channeled the True Power enough to have developed extremely advanced TP addiction symptoms despite not having shown any such symptoms when he talked with Lews Therin in the prologue. As I understand it, it would have been rather difficult, if not impossible, to channel that much (or at all) of any kind of power while bound by the Seals, so he had to have been free and able to walk the world for a significant period in order to have developed those symptoms. I think some of the Forsaken comment a time or two about Ishamael being extremely proud about having not been fully trapped by the Seals.
There are probably a few other hints that I just don't remember offhand.
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In TGH they pass by all th ruined civilazations from after the downfall of Hawking's empire...and they give a time line for it being a few millenia past...i'll check when i'm finished cramming for history
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It has been 3000 years since the White Tower was founded, so basically 3000 years since society got stable after the breaking. Hawkwing died approximately 1000 years ago, when Ishamael was out on his most recent romp. The only ruins older than 3000 years that I can think of are the ruins of the port town on the spine of the world, which are from the AoL.
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Oops. I was more directly responding to this, which I believe TMan was also referring to, and which seems to underestimate just how long it takes the wheel to turn:
Let's just say that Rand accidentally kills Min. That would be a good way of showing how the Wheel of Time is cyclical, don't you think, since Lews Therin accidentally killed Illeyna? That way if he lives he chooses between Elayne and Aviendha, and if he dies he lives in the Dream World with Min. This entire scenario confuses me, especially if everyone survives.
I don't think I'm underestimating it. How many times is Rand reborn to battle the Dark One in any given turn of the wheel? At least two times that we're aware of, once as Lews Therin and now with Rand. So its possible that the DO and Rand battle once per age, and not once per cycle. If Rand is prone to the same mistakes from age to age then Rand accidentally killing Min could still be seen as cyclical.
I've started reading Leigh Butlers reread of the Wheel of Time over at Tor http://bit.ly/VAvH6 and there's hints that he makes the same mistakes from age to age. When Rand first meets Ba'alzamon, Rand "denies" him, at which point Ba'alzamon tells Rand that "You always think it's that easy". Just one example of how Rand tends to repeat the same mistakes.
The difference this time around seems to be that Rand has LTT and his memories in his head. That may happen every time he's reborn or perhaps only once per cycle of the wheel. If once per cycle Rand gets old memories back then that would allow him to change the mistakes that he always makes and finally defeat the DO, which would allow a new age to start, one that mimics ours.
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Oops. I was more directly responding to this, which I believe TMan was also referring to, and which seems to underestimate just how long it takes the wheel to turn:
Let's just say that Rand accidentally kills Min. That would be a good way of showing how the Wheel of Time is cyclical, don't you think, since Lews Therin accidentally killed Illeyna? That way if he lives he chooses between Elayne and Aviendha, and if he dies he lives in the Dream World with Min. This entire scenario confuses me, especially if everyone survives.
I don't think I'm underestimating it. How many times is Rand reborn to battle the Dark One in any given turn of the wheel? At least two times that we're aware of, once as Lews Therin and now with Rand. So its possible that the DO and Rand battle once per age, and not once per cycle. If Rand is prone to the same mistakes from age to age then Rand accidentally killing Min could still be seen as cyclical.
I've started reading Leigh Butlers reread of the Wheel of Time over at Tor http://bit.ly/VAvH6 and there's hints that he makes the same mistakes from age to age. When Rand first meets Ba'alzamon, Rand "denies" him, at which point Ba'alzamon tells Rand that "You always think it's that easy". Just one example of how Rand tends to repeat the same mistakes.
The difference this time around seems to be that Rand has LTT and his memories in his head. That may happen every time he's reborn or perhaps only once per cycle of the wheel. If once per cycle Rand gets old memories back then that would allow him to change the mistakes that he always makes and finally defeat the DO, which would allow a new age to start, one that mimics ours.
The evidence points to Rand only being born twice in this special role of Dragon: once in the Age of Legends, and once in the Third Age. It is strongly implied in book 1 that the Age of Myths is our age, and that it ended in nuclear conflagration between the US and Russia (Mosk and Merc battling with lances of fire) and that the DO was completely uninvolved (otherwise the Age of Legends would have known more about him). The evidence is sparse but real and there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary save people wanting more meaningful repetitions to occur within the ages, which impresses me not at all.
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I'm so trying to stay away from these discussions so that I can read the book without expectations. I can't help myself!
1. Aviendha will have to get with Rand so that she gets pregnant and we can find out what is so special about her babies. This will put Min out of the picture for awhile.
2. Elayne will have her babies.
3. Gawyn will make it home.
4. I'm interested in where Perrin will go next - I hope to see Elayne and her mother reunited in this next book. Of course Morgase will get married again to Tallenvor.
5. Matt might have to speak with Birgette before going into the towers - he will need the help of a dream walker if I remember correctly of the placement of the towers. I believe the doors can only be used once and he has used both once.
6. I hope that the song is found - I know Elayne has some ter'angreal that will make songs and one that can only be opened by a song. I would imagine it plays a role in the last battle. I hope that the Tinkerers find closure in this way.
7. I think Loial is going to do great at the meeting of the stump. However, this might take awhile and he might be out of the picture. I think his wife will let him finish his book and take part in Rand's plans.
8. I hope that the death Rand experiences is the loss of Lews Therin.
9. Egwene will have the tower but I'm sure it will be later that the seachan end up attacking the tower. It may be that the attack pushes Egwene into her rightful place and Eladia dies in the attack.
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I thinkthat terangreal was what was used with Ogier song to "grow" the ways...which hopefully it can cure of it's taint and the black wind
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@ Adrienne
He won't need the help of a dreamwalker getting into the towers, the only help he'll need is knowing how to make the symbol with a bronze dagger to get inside. The Tower of Ghenjei is in this world; if you recall in TEotW Rand and Mat both see the Tower, and later Perrin, while in TAR, lands next to it and Birgette tells him basically how to open it.
As for the song... I think that it was lost. It was sung by the Aiel (as per visions in Rhuidien), Ogier, and the Nym.
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You are absolutely right about the tower. I wonder where I got that someone saw it in the dream world? Maybe it's possible they did. Some days I just wish I wrote some of these things down but I use WoT Wiki a lot for the research.
"A stone carving the size of her hand, all deep blue curves--it was for growing something. Not plants. It made her think of holes only they were not exactly holes. Only sing the right song! Some ter'angreal did not require channeling but really! Singing?" pg 343 Book 10
It might have to do with the Ogier but it might also have something to do with the Tinkerers. I'm interested if it will play a part in anything.
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I could buy into the ter'angreal.
Perrin runs into Birgette while chasing Slayer around in TAR and he ends up around the tower, and she tells him it leads to the land of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.
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The Tower of Ghenjei exists in both the real world and TAR, and can be entered in either. According to Birgitte, it is much more difficult to leave if you enter through TAR than directly from the real world.
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According to Birgitte, it is much more difficult to leave if you enter through TAR than directly from the real world.
I don't even remember that part. I just remember it stuck out that they needed to be in TAR for some reason.
I don't envy Brandon's research with these books - just the notes alone would fill their own books.
I'm sure Matt could come up with something though if he entered through the real world hehe.
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I just finished reading about Mat's healing, and the Wonder Girls being sent to hunt black Ajah.
And I had a though. Verin is the one who pulled together the list of Terangreal stolen by the BA. She is also one of the ones who helped heal Mat. And she is the one who said the lucky dice Terangreal was stolen. Mat is supposed to be the lucky one and Taveren, anyway, but what if Verin decided to help him, took the lucky dice Terangreal herself, and used it while participating in the healing? Possibly she aided the light by boosting his luck even further than it already went?
I don't hold with Lanfear doing it, because why would she? But Verin? I could picture it. Not providing the luck, just making it even stronger. I know part of the idea was touched on already, but that particular twist came to mind as I reread this section today.
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Hmmm I do believe that Min had viewings of Matt and dice when she first met him.
I'm not sure if the tar valon dice are connected but he is one of my favorite characters. I hope we hear more about him and Tuon.
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I don't think Mat needs the dice ter'angreal.
Min's vision of Mat with dice could simply mean the dice that roll in his head occasionally, or that he's a gambler, or that he's lucky.
Verin concerns me. I read in one of the books that she wasn't going to let someone mess things up that she'd been planning for 70 years. That's longer than Siuan and Moiraine's plans.