Timewaster's Guide Archive

General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 29, 2009, 03:18:02 AM

Title: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 29, 2009, 03:18:02 AM
I had an experience today that really disturbed me. I took my daughter to the park and I was spotting her on the playground equipment. There were several other kids there, and a four-year-old boy walked by and said, "All the kids here can come to our house. But not black people."

I was horrified. I mean, I theoretically knew racism wasn't dead, but I'd never come across it in so blatant a form. I was hoping I'd misheard the kid, but he walked up again five minutes later and said, "You can come to our house if you want." And I said, "But not black people?" And he said yeah and started talking about how whenever black people knocked on their door they started going wild and crazy with their mean dogs. (??) I told him that there were lots of very nice black people and he would meet tons of them in the future and he said, "When I grow up, I'm not going to marry a black woman because they stink." I said, "That's not true!" and he said, "My mommy told me so."

So yeah, it just went from bad to worse. I just don't get it. Why would parents go out of their way to teach this to their children? What motivates them to do it? Do parents have a right to teach their kids racism? I guess so, but what can be done about it?

I've been taught to disagree with some people's practices on ideological grounds, but this "they stink" type of FUD was never part of my upbringing. I don't get why parents would talk about it so much that a four-year-old would spout it off to random strangers in the park.

Anyway, the whole thing was very disturbing.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on April 29, 2009, 03:58:26 AM
That is horrible, but it can't be stopped.  It will happen for as long as people exist.  I find it completely scary and ridiculous that someone could teach their kid something like that, I guarantee if I ever have children that they will be taught to accept everyone, no matter their beliefs.

However, as horrible as I think it is, that doesn't mean that these people are bad people.  They probably really believe that it is what is right, and that is why they are teaching it to their children.   Someone wouldn't teach something to their children unless they truly believed it to be true.  They probably love their children as much as anyone else does.  Their choice may not be our way of life, but where are we to say that raising their children like that is wrong and not something that should be allowed?
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 29, 2009, 03:59:41 AM
The whole exchange is hard to believe...not that i'm doubting you mind, it's just that my mom is hispanic and my dad is white so and the only BLANTANT racism i've encountered is toward illegals...
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 29, 2009, 05:03:59 AM
Miyabi, we can say it's wrong because it violates our moral values.

Now, if you're a relativist, you can't say it's wrong without looking like a hypocrite.

I must say I'm disgusted, though.  Ought to be a fine for that kind of behavior.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: mtlhddoc2 on April 29, 2009, 05:09:22 AM
racism takes many forms, although most is not that blatant..  from white people anyway. But it is there, although not nearly as much as it was 20 or 30 years ago. Again, at least not among whites, although it is making a comeback due to teh very blatant racism against whites that has become the norm in pop culture and politics, and in some cases, the law, such as: only white people can be prosecuted for hate crimes in many areas that have hate crime laws, inlcuding mine.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on April 29, 2009, 05:11:30 AM
I really don't know how to say what I mean in a way that makes sense in a large scale.  It basically boils down to being hypocritical.

You can say that the racism they are teaching is bad, but not automatically assume that the person teaching it to their children is a bad person.  That's what I'm trying to say.  Because if you assume that because they believe in racism they are a bad person, is no better than saying that black people stink because they're black.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 29, 2009, 06:02:08 AM
Well, with one critical difference:

Racism is an action and attitude.  Black is a skin color
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: origamikaren on April 29, 2009, 06:04:36 AM
I have certainly seen first hand how parents teach their children to be racist and rude.  It's a disturbing sight...you have to be carefully taught as the saying goes.

On the other hand, this could all be a misunderstanding.  The kid was about four, and four year olds haven't learned to filter what comes out of their mouths -- or what goes into their brains.  I wasn't there to hear what the kid said, but imagine with me this scenario:

A little boy sees somebody making racist comments on TV or in a movie while over at a friend's house.  He might have some African American neighbors with mean dogs (I've had neighbors with mean dogs, and that fact alone made them seem scary and crazy to me.  I've also had neighbors who regularly yell obsecenities at each other beginning before 7 AM).

He's just come to the age when he's figuring out that boys and girls are different, and that boys grow up to be men who get married to girls who grow up to be women, and then they'll be mommies and daddies.  This is a fascinating subject to kids this age, and they often say they'll get married to some little girl they know when they grow up -- or to their sister or mom.  This is a natural stage of child development.

Then, maybe he meets an African American woman somewhere -- perhaps at the grocery store -- and doesn't like the way she smells because she's wearing some strong perfume. He tells his mom he doesn't want to marry her when he grows up, and his mom says, "Ok, you don't have to."  She may also support his idea that those particular neighbors aren't allowed to come over to his house for entirely non-racist reasons.

All these things are floating around in his head, and he makes some overgeneralizations and statements with loaded words that he doesn't understand the power of (Have you ever heard a little kid who has picked up a swear word from somewhere and says it only because it gets a reaction from everyone he says it to?).  This is also  natural for his developmental stage.  Perhaps his mom hasn't heard him talking that way yet, or maybe she hasn't had time to sit down and explain just what might be considered offensive to other people, even if he doesn't mean it that way (I remember being amazed at some of the things my mom made me stop doing that I look back on now and feel terrible about). All you have to do is look in the back of any parenting magazine to see a whole list of horribly embarassing things that kids have said or done.

I wasn't there, so I can't be sure this is what happened, but I find this scenario much more plausible than that his mom (in Provo Utah) is teaching him that black people aren't allowed at his house because they smell.  Remember that young mothers here are mostly Mormons and/or married to BYU students -- those populations aren't known for being blatantly racist, but they're also very known for being kind of sheltered -- they might not know ANY black people except for the neighbors with the dogs.

Though I don't know what was up with this little kid, I do know that I've been on the other end of this kind of misunderstanding.  I was teaching a Hands-on-History class where each girl made a little cloth doll while I told stories about pioneers.  I had made body parts for these dolls from seventeen different colors of fabric from pure black to pure white with every shade of brown, peach, and beige in between. When one of the African American girls chose the pure black, one of the other girls smugly said that black people weren't really black and made the first girl feel stupid for choosing that color.  To make her feel better, I told the girls that there are indeed some people with skin that is so dark it's black almost bordering on blue (for instance, a guy I know from Africa). I also said that everybody was allowed to make their doll however they wanted, and it was nobody else's business.  The girls each chose and sewed on the button eyes, yarn hair, and pioneer dress for their dolls. This was the first sewing experience for many of the 9 or 10 year old girls, and their dolls looked like a child had made them, as they should. 

When the little girl proudly showed her dad the doll she had worked so hard on, with its button eyes kind of crooked, and the curly black yarn hair sticking out at odd angles, he tore it from her hands and stormed into the museum.  He cornered me and was yelling about how I was a horrible person for teaching racial stereotypes, and that his daughter said that I thought black people looked like this doll (which, I now realize, did kind of look like a pickaninny of sorts).  I felt physically threatened by him, and took refuge in another room while my boss dealt with him, but it took me several hours to calm down and feel safe again.

So yeah, the boy at the park might have been carefully taught to exclude smelly black people, but it's just as possible that he hasn't yet been carefully taught to be kind, sensitive, and inclusive yet.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 29, 2009, 06:20:57 AM
Ah, good point.

Best we not jump to conclusions, eh?
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on April 29, 2009, 06:54:20 AM
Very well put Origami.

EDIT:  But if you have to "filter" what you say then is that REALLY any better?
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 29, 2009, 07:41:29 AM
Very well put Origami.

EDIT:  But if you have to "filter" what you say then is that REALLY any better?

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on April 29, 2009, 07:48:11 AM
It's like, if you think (Pardon the language) "That nigger" but instead you say "Ugh, I can't believe he did that" . . . does it make you any better of a person just because you didn't say it?  If you thought it, that means you believe it whether you said it or not.  (For the record, I'm not a fan of "political correctness"  A rose by any other name.)
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on April 29, 2009, 08:36:34 AM
On the other hand, one thing hasn't been pointed out.  Four-year-olds are notorious for taking one slight slip of the tongue, something a stranger told mommy, or something they saw on TV and inventing a rational, backstory and rigid set of principles that have no basis in reality.  This kid could be making it all up.  The parents might be the most fair and color-blind people in the US and the kid just made them look like Hitler. :)

In the words of 1960's TV, Kids say the darndest things.  :)


Of course I've dealt with a good deal of racism in my life, and I doubt it's really gone away.  Part of my heritage involves people who migrated to and built a new world on a new continent some 10-15 thousand years ago.  They've been the target of genocide, cultural warfare and a religious teachings intended to dehumanized us. :P  No biggy, but I've been all over my body looking for my mark and haven't found one yet.

On the other hand I look European enough to make those relatives nervous too, so it's a toss up. :D

Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: ErikHolmes on April 29, 2009, 09:23:57 AM
All I can say is: There's a LOT of stupid parents out there.

I still remember the kids in California that got taken away from their parents by social services. They were like six and four years old . . . and only spoke Klingon.   :-\
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 29, 2009, 10:52:19 AM
Those poor children, taken away from their loving Klingon parents!

The university here has an international food & culture night, and, among all of the other nations of the world, a family of Klingons regularly shows up.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on April 29, 2009, 02:27:30 PM
That is absolutely amazing, I'm not going to lie.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 29, 2009, 03:39:27 PM
I know in my head it's sad but im laughing so hard im trying to keep my ass from falling off...
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 29, 2009, 05:02:26 PM
That Klingon thing—any sources for that? I found this:
http://www.kake.com/blogs/jaredcerullo/40490362.html
but it's not corroborated anywhere.
Here's some other stuff I found...
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=10873
http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/klingon.asp

Part of my heritage involves people who migrated to and built a new world on a new continent some 10-15 thousand years ago.  They've been the target of genocide, cultural warfare and a religious teachings intended to dehumanized us. :P  No biggy, but I've been all over my body looking for my mark and haven't found one yet.
Um, if you're referring to some kind of LDS religious teaching, I'm afraid you're quite mistaken about what the church teaches. But if you're not talking about anything LDS, then never mind.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on April 29, 2009, 05:18:09 PM
I really liked the article about the guy that was teaching his son Klingon as an experiment. 

Speaking of constructed languages I used to have a bunch of friends that spoke Tolkein's Elvish.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: SarahG on April 29, 2009, 05:42:37 PM
Just, please, nobody try to teach their kids Spook's dialect.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 29, 2009, 05:56:18 PM
There's not enough of it to teach from anyway.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on April 29, 2009, 05:59:26 PM
I think there is, if you focus on just a speech pattern.  I agree that there isn't enough vernacularity though.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: mtlhddoc2 on April 29, 2009, 08:17:31 PM
Part of my heritage involves people who migrated to and built a new world on a new continent some 10-15 thousand years ago.  They've been the target of genocide, cultural warfare and a religious teachings intended to dehumanized us. :P  No biggy, but I've been all over my body looking for my mark and haven't found one yet.

Um, if you're referring to some kind of LDS religious teaching, I'm afraid you're quite mistaken about what the church teaches. But if you're not talking about anything LDS, then never mind.

i dont think the Mormons came to North America, or anywhere, 15 thousand years ago. I do believe Mormonism is only about a 200 year old religion. He is saying that he has Native American ancestors. No culture in teh history of the world has faced the brutality and genocide that the American Indian has faced. And before your say it, no, not even the Jewish peoples. Not like that, but they would be second.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 29, 2009, 08:42:53 PM
mtlhddoc2, I know he's talking about Native Americans. My question was about the "religious teachings intended to dehumanize us" and the "mark" he hasn't found. The Book of Mormon talks about a people it claims are among the ancestors of the Native Americans. Some of what it says could be misconstrued in the way Renoard mentions. Unless I am misinterpreting what he was saying (he would have to answer that), I think that is what he was referring to. (But this question was already covered in this thread (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6552.30) back in March).

I do not dispute the genocide of the Native Americans, though more of them died because of pandemic rather than conscious action on the part of the Europeans.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 29, 2009, 08:51:23 PM
Hell everyone that has been in the south several generations has native american blood...i have two tribes making up 3/32 so not enough to get me benefits...
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Shaggy on April 29, 2009, 10:28:00 PM
What's 'FUD?'
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 29, 2009, 11:12:36 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: mtlhddoc2 on April 30, 2009, 12:07:12 AM
Ookla, yes, pandemic, but they would not have died in the numbers that they did if they had not been driven into "reservations" and stripped of any semblance of humanity beforehand...   anyway...  I guess I missed the whole point because obviously there is something I am unaware of concerning Mormons and Natives.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 30, 2009, 01:00:07 AM
No, the pandemics happened long before the reservations did. There's a lot of debate on the numbers but here's a link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples#Population_overview

Some scholars estimate the Native American population in 1650 of 8 million was only 5% the number that existed in 1492, and that the vast majority of the decline was due to pandemics.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on April 30, 2009, 02:50:47 AM
How much you want to bet there are people trying to teach their kids the WoT old tongue?
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 30, 2009, 02:58:29 AM
I...would bet against that one. :)
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on April 30, 2009, 03:22:48 AM
I think you'd probably lose.  Fans are a strange animal.  The proof? Gen-con. . .  Star-Trek Cons. . .  Wasn't BS just at one of those things doing skits?  These show just how serious some people can get.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angelfire.com%2Ftx%2Fjcs97b%2Fotd.html&ei=6wj5SbqkDp3qsgPfhNnJCg&usg=AFQjCNEKiIZ-Hk-5JmvYwoza7Mn5-zvaTQ
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2FTimesSquare%2FMaze%2F1959%2Fwot_oldtongue.html&ei=6wj5SbqkDp3qsgPfhNnJCg&usg=AFQjCNF07dfTzyOT5pBLHRrr479z3_D4cg
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgareis.free.fr%2Foton.html&ei=6wj5SbqkDp3qsgPfhNnJCg&usg=AFQjCNEBTAC0x1jMjD4o175H0yoSVhCkVA
http://www.drosi.de/wot/wt_tongu.htm

And this one is the funniest:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/old_tongue_-_morphology

Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 30, 2009, 03:54:14 AM
Yeah, I've seen the dictionaries before. The problem is that it's just not developed enough to use as an everyday language (unlike Klingon). I wouldn't bet against fans teaching their kids a few Old Tongue words, but I would bet against actual fluency.

Karen and I use a few random Russian and Japanese and Esperanto words around the house, but we're not trying to teach our daughter the languages at this time.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on April 30, 2009, 04:38:05 AM
Never underestimate the tenacity of the geek. :)
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 30, 2009, 05:29:39 AM
I'm a geek, so I don't. I'm just being pragmatic.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Inquisitor on April 30, 2009, 05:30:53 AM
I don't think we know enough words in the old tongue for us to teach it to anybody.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 30, 2009, 08:18:02 AM
Also, Renoard, you really need to keep this in mind:

Mark Okrand (inventor of Klingon) is a professional linguist.  Robert Jordan was nearly as far from that as one can get(his naming choices were horrendous).
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: ErikHolmes on April 30, 2009, 08:47:58 AM
Also, Renoard, you really need to keep this in mind:

Mark Okrand (inventor of Klingon) is a professional linguist.  Robert Jordan was nearly as far from that as one can get(his naming choices were horrendous).

You know, I've never seen anyone talk about how a lot of Robert Jordan's names were just play on named from Celtic Mythology. I'd be interested if there are any pages out there talking about it.

I can't remember them all right now, I can only remember the obvious ones:

Aes Sedai = Aes Sidhe
Rand Al'Thor = Tamlin al'Thor
Tuatha'an = Tuatha De Danann
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 30, 2009, 09:01:11 AM
Well, and look at his stupid Trolloc tribe names.  Pathetic!  Even the word "Trolloc" itself is sad.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on April 30, 2009, 10:26:22 AM
No, I am well aware that Rigney was no linguist and wasn't even trying to create a coherent language.  Not only Okrand, but Tolkien was a linguist as well.  But that hasn't stopped motivated people from trying to force order and reason onto the Old Tongue.  He included just enough to tantalize that sort of imagination and people are trying to "finish" the work.

I've notice a couple of places where he likely borrowed from the Tsalagi terms that had crept into the Carolina patois he grew up with.  So no doubt it's a mixed bag. ;P

A-es Se-da-wee (a tough nutshell) a tough nut to crack or a problem.  Boy aren't they?
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 30, 2009, 11:33:04 AM
Tolkien was technically a Philologist.  You could call him a Linguist, but he was not a professor of Linguistics, per se.  It's a supremely small difference, and as a Philologist, Tolkien would have been more than well equipped to deal with language creation… but anyway.

I used to conlang a bit.  Good stuff.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 30, 2009, 06:47:38 PM
Jade explain the difference i'm not familar with that occupation...
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 30, 2009, 08:23:45 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philology
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on April 30, 2009, 10:17:12 PM
It plays a part in the divinities as well.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Shard on May 03, 2009, 06:05:49 AM
It's like, if you think (Pardon the language) "That nigger" but instead you say "Ugh, I can't believe he did that" . . . does it make you any better of a person just because you didn't say it?  If you thought it, that means you believe it whether you said it or not.  (For the record, I'm not a fan of "political correctness"  A rose by any other name.)

I would say yes, it's showing restraint for starters, just because you know the word and how it can be applied doesn't mean you believe it. It's much like getting angry at someone and wanting to hit them but restraining yourself and not doing it.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Miyabi on May 03, 2009, 06:44:34 AM
I'm sorry Shard, but I don't see it that way.  You don't think something if you don't, at least a little bit, believe it somewhere deep inside.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on May 03, 2009, 09:03:09 AM
While I certainly don't think it makes you "not racist" if you think these things and don't say them, I certainly do think it makes you a better person—self control, even for a racist (or especially for one, maybe) is a good thing, and having it is certainly better than not.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Inquisitor on May 03, 2009, 09:14:44 AM
If you think it but don't say it, then on some level you must know that it's wrong.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Shard on May 03, 2009, 01:17:28 PM
If you think it but don't say it, then on some level you must know that it's wrong.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on May 03, 2009, 04:38:18 PM
There was an episode of House recently that had a guy who couldn't keep from saying the first thing that popped into his head. He was really ticked because he'd worked so hard his whole life not to do that.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Inquisitor on May 03, 2009, 07:28:26 PM
I remember that episode. He knew it was wrong, and he tried his hardest not to say those things.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on May 04, 2009, 12:02:22 AM
I got the impression he thought it was threatening his lifestyle, but not that he was guilty over it.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Inquisitor on May 04, 2009, 12:19:37 AM
I felt like he didn't want to say those things, especially to his wife, because he didn't want to hurt people.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Renoard on May 04, 2009, 02:21:52 AM
Yeah I didn't see any evidence of compassion in him.  It looked rather like narcissism to me.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on May 04, 2009, 03:15:43 AM
I totally didn't get those vibes from him.

Anyway, drawing on that example—A person's innermost thoughts are important; after all, Jesus talked about committing adultery in your heart. But I think that, like we can't control the temptations that beset us but only how we react to them, how we react to the thoughts in our heads is very important. If an unhelpful thought crosses our mind, do we dwell on it or push it away? The conscious choice to school our speech and not to say it out loud is a very important first step. What cometh out of a man defileth him, etc.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: The Jade Knight on May 04, 2009, 03:33:57 AM
I like your new little title, Ook.  "Assistant to Mr. Sanderson", heh.
Title: Re: Teaching racism
Post by: Shard on May 04, 2009, 03:42:50 AM
I agree Ookla, if one goes around spouting racial slurs surly that is worse then someone that merely thinks of them.