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General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: daman on April 23, 2009, 09:44:20 AM

Title: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: daman on April 23, 2009, 09:44:20 AM
Is it true about the two versions thing and the translation?
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 23, 2009, 10:03:02 AM
Many people here would say yes, many would say no.

Apart from saying that, I'm going to stay out of this conversation.  I will let it be known that at the first sign of flaming, this thread will be locked.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ryos on April 23, 2009, 10:05:44 AM
Your post is actually too vague for me to know what you're talking about...and I'm Mormon. ???
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 23, 2009, 10:24:16 AM
I just don't see what all the Mormon baiting has to do with speculative fiction and gaming.  This is the third thread started by the same person in the space of a week, for no purpose other than to stir hard feelings.  I just don't see why this adds value to the forum, Especially given that maybe 80% of the registered users are Mormon. . .
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 23, 2009, 10:27:54 AM
I don't think it's that high.

I think a lot of it is that people read Sanderson, enjoy his writing, find out he's a Mormon,  and then come here because they're curious to see what Mormons are like (or how they respond to baiting.  =ž) .  Of course, this is speculation on my part, but it doesn't seem unlikely.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 23, 2009, 06:53:44 PM
I think he's talking about the 116 pages.

Ever wonder why the book of Mosiah doesn't have a summary at the beginning like the other books do? That's because the first 2 chapters were part of what was lost. Manuscript page 117 includes the end of a sentence at the top of the page, and then chapter 3 (our chapter 1) starts. The book summaries were on the golden plates themselves rather than being added later.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 23, 2009, 07:13:25 PM
I would disagree with you do to my christian upbringing Ookla, and yes i know you say you are a Christan denomination but most Christians do not accept that you are and i truly believe the beliefs are far too different for you to be a branch of the faith. Anyways i believe the bible is false to begin with so my views on this don't really matter...
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 23, 2009, 07:28:52 PM
Disagree with what? I'm not sure your post is in response to what I actually wrote.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 23, 2009, 07:54:53 PM
I was wondering the same thing, actually...
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 23, 2009, 08:58:19 PM
I disagree with the fact that those chapters are part of the original authors writings...sorry you think faster than you type and lose track...
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ryos on April 23, 2009, 09:04:33 PM
You mean the summaries? They were mostly written by Mormon, not the author of the book they summarize, so I guess you could say they weren't written by the "original" author.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 23, 2009, 09:05:19 PM
I mean the "lost chapters"
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ryos on April 23, 2009, 09:08:53 PM
Well, now I'm even more confused. In what sense were the lost 116 pages "not written by the original author"?
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 23, 2009, 09:11:33 PM
Virtually christians will argue that the book of mormon was not written by the original prophets/ disciples and instead written at a later date and has no relation to the canon.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 23, 2009, 09:13:31 PM
Maybe he just means that he thinks Joseph Smith wrote the whole thing himself, both the 116 pages and everything else. [EDIT: He posted before I hit submit.

Kaz, I didn't say anything about prophets or disciples or the canon, so you weren't responding to what I was talking about. :)]
You mean the summaries? They were mostly written by Mormon, not the author of the book they summarize, so I guess you could say they weren't written by the "original" author.
Well, yes, except the Small Plates ones which were written by the authors (see the end of 1 Nephi's summary). But most of the non-dialogue/non-letter-quote words of Mormon's  books were written by Mormon himself.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ryos on April 23, 2009, 09:23:10 PM
Virtually christians will argue that the book of mormon was not written by the original prophets/ disciples and instead written at a later date and has no relation to the canon.

Ah. See, that actually makes sense. It would have been much simpler if you'd just said "I don't believe the Book of Mormon is true" from the beginning.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 23, 2009, 10:07:06 PM
woopsy daisy.... :-[
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 23, 2009, 10:22:20 PM
Kaz is a little vague on his Irvingite/Baptist catechism but he is trying to cite a historical fact in a slightly inarticulate way. :P  It is a fact, and I doubt a surprise to anyone who has been on a Mormon mission, that the dogma of every "denomination" or sect that is not a part of the LDS arc (i.e. CJCLDS, RCJDLDS and splinter sects that claim association with Smith and Young) reject the assertion that LDS are Christians.  The reason is that they feel that the canon of Scripture was closed at the ecumenical council where the canon was set. Further the belief is based on the passage in Galations 1:6-9
Quote
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The common understanding is that this includes Mormans, Druze, Swedenborgians, Muslims, B'hai and any other group which tries to marry the bible with other texts.

Not meaning to start that debate, but it looked to me like Ookla was playing dumb, pretending not to know what Kaz was trying to say and that is a little dishonest. ;)
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ErikHolmes on April 23, 2009, 10:26:37 PM
Virtually christians will argue that the book of mormon was not written by the original prophets/ disciples and instead written at a later date and has no relation to the canon.

Well, Mormons wouldn't even disagree with part of that statement.

The Book of Mormon was written by prophets on the American continent who taught about Christ at the same time that the disciples in Jerusalem were.

That it has no relation to the canon . . . THAT we would argue.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 23, 2009, 10:45:12 PM
Quote
It is a fact, and I doubt a surprise to anyone who has been on a Mormon mission, that the dogma of every "denomination" or sect that is not a part of the LDS arc (i.e. CJCLDS, RCJDLDS and splinter sects that claim association with Smith and Young) reject the assertion that LDS are Christians.

I do not believe this is true.  It is the dogma of many denominations, yes, but not of all.  There are other Chrisitan groups which recognize the Christianity of the Latter-day Saints.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 23, 2009, 10:45:44 PM
Renoard, the point is that Kaz said he disagreed with me, but I didn't really say anything in my post for him to disagree with. I didn't even say the Book of Mormon was scripture. (Though that is what I believe.)

All I was talking about was the lost 116 pages of manuscript and how they related to the rest of the book. But I'm not even sure Kaz knows the story about the lost 116 pages of manuscript. (Which is, in short, when Joseph Smith started translating the book, Martin Harris worked as his scribe, and Martin's wife wanted to see the pages, so Joseph gave them to Martin and they got lost. That part of the story in the Book of Mormon, the beginning of the book, had to be covered again when Joseph got to the end of the book, and the claim in the Book of Mormon is that this section of the history was presented in two different books within the Golden Plates, so Joseph used the other section instead of retranslating the part that went into the 116 pages that were lost.)

LDS believe that the gospel we preach is the gospel Christ preached and the Book of Mormon is another testament of Christ. And that God himself, and his prophets, never said there would be no more scripture or revelation from heaven, and that what constitutes scripture is not something that should be decided by committee. But anyway the belief in extracanonical scripture is not the most commonly cited reason other Christians claim Mormons aren't Christian. The most common reason I've heard is that Mormons aren't Christian because we don't believe in the classical Trinity, that Jesus is his own father. And LDS counter that by saying that idea isn't in the Bible anyway.

But this has been done to death in other threads.

And Jade said right in the second post, "many people here would say yes, many would say no."
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ErikHolmes on April 23, 2009, 11:15:34 PM
Kaz is a little vague on his Irvingite/Baptist catechism but he is trying to cite a historical fact in a slightly inarticulate way. :P  It is a fact, and I doubt a surprise to anyone who has been on a Mormon mission, that the dogma of every "denomination" or sect that is not a part of the LDS arc (i.e. CJCLDS, RCJDLDS and splinter sects that claim association with Smith and Young) reject the assertion that LDS are Christians.  The reason is that they feel that the canon of Scripture was closed at the ecumenical council where the canon was set. Further the belief is based on the passage in Galations 1:6-9
Quote
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The common understanding is that this includes Mormans, Druze, Swedenborgians, Muslims, B'hai and any other group which tries to marry the bible with other texts.

The fact that anyone could call a church called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" not Christian has always been funny to me. IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .

My first thought when you posted the above scripture was:

That's fine. We believe we preach the exact same gospel that Paul would have preached to them at that time anyway.

I think it's also fairly well documented that the scripture quoted above was an Epistle from Paul specifically for the Galatians, who were being taught that they needed to follow the law of Moses, and not what he was teaching them (mainly having to due with circumcision).

Mormons haven't been forcing circumcision on anyone either, so I think we are in there clear there too   ;D

Not meaning to start that debate, but it looked to me like Ookla was playing dumb, pretending not to know what Kaz was trying to say and that is a little dishonest. ;)

In Ookla's defense, I hardly think she was being dishonest. What Kaz was saying made little sense IMO. Ookla made a comment about pages missing from the Book of Mormon and about how a section in the Book of Mormon was missing. Then Kaz jumped in and said he disagreed due to the fact that he was a christian? He's disagreeing that the summary is missing from the book of Mosiah?
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 12:09:40 AM
Again, I don't think Kaz was challenging the issue of the 115 pages, I think he was expressing a general disdain for all things Mormon.  I wasn't defending his position, just clarifying because a lot of vagaries were being thrown around.

Quote
IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .
Of course that's not a very sound opinion Erik.  Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ. And a Muslim would be to first to take offense if you called them Christian.  There are a whole list of qualifying distinctives that include or exclude people from being Christian.

Belief and alliance are not quite the same thing. ;D
James 2:17-19 is pretty clear on that.
Quote
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Eleaneth on April 24, 2009, 12:26:45 AM
Yeah. That's one of the biggest difference between Mormons and other Christian churches--that Christians usually see Christianity as beginning with Christ and the doctrine being complete when the Bible was written and compiled.
EDIT: Of course, most Christians believe that people before Christ looked forward to a Messiah. But I don't think most Christians believe that anyone before Christ actually understood that the Messiah would be the Son of God and would save the repentant from their sins.

In contrast, Mormons see Christianity as beginning with Adam. We believe that many prophets throughout the world's history have taught plainly that Jesus Christ would come, but that the knowledge of Christ and His gospel was repeatedly lost. Whenever a prophet came, they used old scripture and also taught new things that had been forgotten. That's what John the Baptist, Christ, and His followers did in the New Testament. That's what Moses did. And that's what Joseph Smith did.

Mormons in general accept that most Christians have a different view, but they are always confused and sometimes offended when others call them unChristian. Joseph Smith wrote, "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost... we believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." (Note "may be saved," not "will be saved." Important difference.) The real name of the "Mormon" church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". We believe that faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel.

Quote
IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .
Of course that's not a very sound opinion Erik.  Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ. And a Muslim would be to first to take offense if you called them Christian.  There are a whole list of qualifying distinctives that include or exclude people from being Christian.

Okay, to be more specific, a Christian is one who believes that Jesus is the Christ (aka. the Messiah), AND that He is the Son of God, AND that we can only be saved from our sins through His grace. Mormons believe all of those things.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 12:42:15 AM
Oh I understand that, on the other hand those of my bent believe the following to be the minimum standard for authentic Christianity.  We also believe that any additions to the God-head are a mark of not being un-Christian in the sense of Character, but different from Christian in the sense of substance.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day, he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost who participated in creation.
He indwells the believer and baptizes in power to perform miracles and service.
He counsels the broken heart and heals the broken mind.
He is in all and through all establishing the community of true believers.
He gives evidence of those who believe by conferring the power to bind and exile demons,
speak with unknown tongues,
bring miraculous healing to the sick,
and stand proof against poison.

I believe in the community of saints who are the true believers past and present;
living and dead,
forgiveness of sins,
resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ryos on April 24, 2009, 12:51:58 AM
I feel an Orson Scott Card (http://ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2007-03-18-1.html) quote coming on...

Quote
Let me save everybody a lot of time. If by "Christian" you mean "believes in the version of God and Christ taught in the Nicene Creed," then absolutely not. Right from the start, the founding prophet of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, rejected that view of God as a fantasy.

In other words, most people who say that Mormons aren't Christians do so because they think we don't believe in the same God, or the same Christ. And, in fact, most mormons would agree with that sentiment.

Of course, if we're being fair, then in the view of LDS and applying that very same standard that the rest of Christendom applies to us, we are the only Christians. Maybe, instead of trying to argue with people who say Mormons aren't Christians, we should just reply, "Right back at you." ;)

What puzzles me is the inability of so many of my Christian brethren to let this go. Doctrinal differences aside, Mormons and Christians share most of the same morals and most of the same goals. We should be able to work and live peacefully together, without this same argument constantly cropping up.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 12:58:23 AM
That would be why I suggested locking this thread last night. ;P
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 24, 2009, 12:59:11 AM
You're just demonstrating Renoard's "whole list of qualifiers," Eleaneth. :) I don't believe the list of qualifiers is very long—that he's the Son of God, was crucified and resurrected, and made the atonement making him the savior of mankind—that's enough for me and enough for a lot of Christians.

Interesting that you quote those James verses, Renoard, since they're LDS favorites. And they demonstrate that another way to tell a Christian is if they follow the teachings of Christ.

Also, ErikHolmes, I am a guy.

Oh I understand that, on the other hand those of my bent believe the following to be the minimum standard for authentic Christianity.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day, he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost who participated in creation.
He indwells the believer and baptizes in power to perform miracles and service.
He counsels the broken heart and heals the broken mind.
He is in all and through all establishing the community of true believers.
He gives evidence of those who believe by conferring the power to bind and exile demons,
speak with unknown tongues,
bring miraculous healing to the sick,
and stand proof against poison.

I believe in the community of saints who are the true believers past and present;
living and dead,
forgiveness of sins,
resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.
Hmm, well, Mormons believe all those words, except that we believe these parts:
Quote
creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name
refer to Jesus rather than God the Father—that God the Father directed his son Jesus (also known as Jehovah/I Am) to create the heaven and the earth.

Also, Mormons don't add anything to the Godhead beyond the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, so I'm not sure what your issue is with us.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 01:15:41 AM
Naw.  I didn't say I had a problem with Mormons, just that I don't believe the Book of Mormon or the Doctrines that arise from it are consistent with Christianity.  As I saw it, since others were summarizing with a statement of faith and distinctives I'd add mine.  Does this make you feel attacked? it wasn't intended to.

Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 24, 2009, 01:21:15 AM
Hmm, which doctrines that arise from the Book of Mormon do you believe are inconsistent with Christianity? Have you read it?

I didn't say I felt attacked, and I don't. I just asked what your issue was (which made you think we weren't Christians in substance) since we met the criteria you listed.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 01:55:48 AM
Well you particularly cited items that are make or break, which you disagree with.  I think you know what objections are and are just trying to prolong a debate I don't really want to have here.  I didn't join this forum to sit by while others attack, the Bible or to engage in these debates over the validity of Mormonism.  Let me put it to you this way, I even know the ceremony for confirming someone as a member of the "Aronic" priesthood.  I've had these arguments with Stake-Holders and Bishops.  No, I've never been a Mormon but some secrets aren't all that secret.

I really don't want to continue hashing old ground
the short list is:
The Doctrine of God head and the position Ryos cited
The very many items of Masonic ritual and dogma that have been subsumed into the LDS
The whole body of doctrines surrounding the "Prophet"
The claim that the book of Mormon is scripture

These are non-negotiable issues for everyone outside the the LDS Arc.  If you've been lead to believe otherwise I assure you, you've been lied to.  The most inclusive group of all, the RCC would pretend to accept Mormons as brothers and sisters, all the while attempting to remind you that the Prophet is subject to the Pope. We don't accept the Papacy any more than LDS, I just pointing out to you that slippery redefinitions are not the exclusive purview of Elders on Mission. :)

I really don't want to offend you. But this argument, "We're all Christians because," is just not going anywhere.  Again I think this thread should have been locked, but if the one who started it is really just a Mormon pretending to troll in order to provide a venue for this kind of debate, then I'm pretty disappointed.  That's a fairly dishonest move and frankly the means justify the outcome not vice versa. ;P

If you don't believe that the Father is the God of the old testament, If you don't believe that the humanity of Jesus is distinct from his Divinity, and if you don't believe that Jesus sonship was unique in all creation, then you are simply not a Christian.  This is the up shot of John chapter one, which is a tractate against all forms of gnosticism, including Mormonism.  Again I don't say this to offend anyone, just to answer Peter's question.  I can love you for your sincerity and moral stance and be sad for your choice of faith, and afraid for you when you succeed in converting a Christian or a Jew.  But I can't agree with you.  I think Ryan had the right idea a bit ago.  Work together where we don't get in each other's way. ;P
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on April 24, 2009, 02:11:57 AM
The biggest difference between the other denominations and the mormon church is the argument of Adam's importance...the baptist and methodist (the only to denominations i have been a part of) believe his only significance is that he was the first man and help bring about original sin...also the catholics have the apocrapha and that is not part of the canon and yet they are still recognized as christians



P.S. i have no disdain for any belief structure that isn't fanatical and considering i am a Deist, a branch of Theism, i really don't care about the argument between the denominations...
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 24, 2009, 02:31:14 AM
The ceremony of conferring the Aaronic Priesthood? This is nothing secret and happens to most LDS boys when they are 12 years old, usually during a Sunday meeting at a chapel, with their family members sitting in the room. A priesthood holder puts their hands on the boy's head and says something like "[Person's name], by the power of the Holy [Aaronic or Melchizedek] Priesthood that I hold, I lay my hands upon your head and confer upon you the Aaronic priesthood and ordain you to the office of deacon in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and this I do in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." It's not a big secret and anyone who wants to sit in can.

Jesus said in John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am." This was basically saying that he was Jehovah. But from our point of view it really doesn't matter that Jesus was talking in the Old Testament rather than His Father because Jesus only does the will of the Father. So whether it was Jesus speaking or the Father speaking in the Old Testament, they would have said the same thing. But still, if you're trinitarian and believe Jesus was his own father, I don't understand the objection here. It's like you're saying "that you believe Jesus was the God of the Old Testament proves you are not Christian," yet you also believe he is, as a member of the Trinity, God, and therefore the God of the Old Testament. Surely you're not saying that Jesus was not around before his mortal birth.

Sure, I believe the humanity of Jesus is distinct from his divinity in that he was born with a mortal body but was divine before, during, and after his mortal incarnation—and him being both the spiritual and physical Son of God was unique in all creation.

I realize that you've been taught that humanity cannot understand and make logical sense out of the doctrine of the trinity. We believe that it should make logical sense and therefore our version of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) does make logical sense. We believe that they're three distinct individuals and they are one in purpose. That is a major difference between Mormons and the rest of Christianity. But in our point of view, just because we believe in a version of the Godhead that makes logical sense to us doesn't mean we don't believe Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God who saved the world.

But if you didn't want to have this discussion, I'm not sure why you posted in this thread.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 02:33:12 AM
Sorry Kaz, you are prolonging this but you are wrong.  The RCC are the only Catholics that give the Apocrypha any credence, and frankly that don't view it as scripture.  They take it as a form of text book but not scriptural.  Yes they include the OT apocrypha between the covers, but only because the Septuagint did the same.

Anglicans, Episcopalians and Lutherans are among the catholics that reject the apocrypha as more than historically significant fiction.

I'm done.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 03:14:02 AM
Quote
But if you didn't want to have this discussion, I'm not sure why you posted in this thread.
Frankly it was to protect people who might read an unchallenged attack on the truth of the New Testament. I just felt that dogmatic statements ridiculing the position of the vast majority of those who identify themselves with Christ should go unchallenged. So I thought I'd just insert a dissenting opinion and let it drop.  It saddens me that you aren't willing to do likewise.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Andrew the Great on April 24, 2009, 04:44:21 AM
Ummm.... I didn't see anyone attacking the truth of the New Testament. Mormons believe the New Testament contains important doctrines too. And I didn't see any ridiculing. In fact, all I've seen is discussion on why various Mormon doctrines make them either Christian or not. 

Forgive me Renoard, but you keep saying that you don't want to give offense and we should all just agree to disagree. Then you state your opinion as though it's the only possible truth. I can respect that, but if you believe that your view is the only true one, at least allow those Mormons (myself included) who have posted the same opportunity. As soon as we make any statement of Mormon Doctrine (which is, by the way, the subject of this thread) or correct or clarify a point that you made, you immediately post a reply stating why it can't be true or changing to a new belief of yours. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you keep expressing your opinions. I find them interesting, and they help me understand where you are coming from a bit more. But please, if you're going to keep posting in this thread, don't get angry at others for doing so. It takes two to tango.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 04:54:35 AM
I think you've misread the thread Andrew. I'm not angry. Not sure why you think so.  And you've got it backwards.  The fact I didn't accept the idea that my perspective is wrong and asked (4 times) if we could agree to disagree was what was not being given respect. :D
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 24, 2009, 05:40:26 AM
Yeah...... I don't see any attack on the truth of the New Testament anywhere in this thread, especially not before your first religious-arguing post (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6668.msg146365#msg146365) in this thread. The thread was pretty tame before then. Seems to me you started the arguing. But it doesn't really matter who started it, if no one wants to continue.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 06:09:54 AM
Peter I want to apologize to you.  I have reread the thread and my first post was a bit out of left field.  I was writing my first post while you and Kaz were settling your misunderstanding.  So Mine slipped in out of order and not really on topic.  It would appear I did start the whole debate, and because I hadn't read carefully enough I posted a snark at you as well.  That was not called for.

Mice and men and all that. . .

I was unaware of the lost pages issue prior to this thread so I did at least learn one thing. :P
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 24, 2009, 06:33:31 AM
No hard feelings then.

It's interesting how daman's threads that survived have developed though—the Joseph Smith thread is not about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon thread is not about the Book of Mormon, and the Second Wife thread is not about polygamy (at least anymore). (By the way, we're pretty sure he is a returned banned troll formerly known as UtopiaGreen01 a few months ago, most likely not LDS. He just likes to troll wherever he goes—for example, some of his posts over at Yahoo Answers are incredible.)
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Renoard on April 24, 2009, 06:41:37 AM
I see that.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 24, 2009, 07:29:32 AM
Quote
Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ.


This is absolutely incorrect.  They believe Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger (nabi & rasul), but they reject any claims that he was divine, the Christ, crucified & resurrected, or otherwise greater than the Prophet Muhammad.

Quote
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
He is the God of the Jew and the savior of the nation of Israel.
He is the great I Am and the bearer of the unspoken name.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day, he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost who participated in creation.
He indwells the believer and baptizes in power to perform miracles and service.
He counsels the broken heart and heals the broken mind.
He is in all and through all establishing the community of true believers.
He gives evidence of those who believe by conferring the power to bind and exile demons,
speak with unknown tongues,
bring miraculous healing to the sick,
and stand proof against poison.

I believe in the community of saints who are the true believers past and present;
living and dead,
forgiveness of sins,
resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.

I believe few Mormons would have problems agreeing to this statement, though the bit about "proof against poison" seems a bizarre inclusion:  certainly it's in the scriptures, but so are a number of other wonderful miracles not mentioned.  God certainly isn't limited to the things you have listed there.


I am among those who don't see any attack on the New Testament.  What I do see is a lot of hostility which had been beginning to come out of you, Renoard (which has heretofore been absent), and I'm concerned that Ookla might have been beginning to follow suit.

It's perfectly okay for us to discuss this stuff rationally, and express our beliefs politely and tolerantly.  It's possible that St. E. would have already locked this thread, but if you folks can stay polite, I'll keep it open.

We all already know that most Christian sects fail to see eye-to-eye on all doctrines.  Some find these doctrinal differences much more significant than others.  Generally, it is unhelpful to rehash all those differences here, particularly if one feels that they are getting defensive, offended, or angry.

But, of course, it's perfectly fine to ask questions when you do not understand something, or to try to clarify when you feel that your view has been misrepresented.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: ErikHolmes on April 24, 2009, 08:53:19 AM
Quote
IMO if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then you're a Christian . . .
Of course that's not a very sound opinion Erik.  Muslims believe that Jesus was the Christ. And a Muslim would be to first to take offense if you called them Christian.  There are a whole list of qualifying distinctives that include or exclude people from being Christian.

Ok, let me make it more clear as to what I believe:

Matthew 16:16 (King James Version)

 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Anyone who agrees with Peter on that statement, in my book, is a Christian. (Ya, ya, I know there might be a few wacky exceptions but let's not get too crazy here).

Belief and alliance are not quite the same thing. ;D
James 2:17-19 is pretty clear on that.
Quote
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

While I agree with what you are saying, I've talked to other Christians that might not. I have a friend that believes 100% that anyone who claims they believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. No mater how many sucka's they've had to bust a cap in cause they owed them fifty dollas. If they've said the words, they are in the clear.

When your brother is in jail cause he DID bust a cap in someone for fifty dollars, its probably a comforting belief to have.

Now, I could tell my friend that he's not really a Christian, but beyond it just not being polite, I just think there are better ways to approach differences of opinion on religion.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 24, 2009, 09:14:51 AM
That's a very interesting way to approach it, Erik.  The whole "mote in the eye" bit, eh?
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 24, 2009, 06:50:54 PM
Jade, in Islam, Jesus (Isa) is still known as al-Masīḥ (the messiah, anointed one) so technically they do believe he was small-c "christ." They also believe in his virgin birth. Beyond that you're right though, but I think Renoard already knew all those facts and was just focusing on the al-Masīḥ thing.

Let me introduce a related subject. For example, the following news release (http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/fundamentalist-mormons):

Quote
A recent news story referred to fugitive Warren Jeffs as a “fundamentalist Mormon” and “leader of a polygamist breakaway Mormon sect.”

Polygamist groups in Utah, Arizona or Texas have nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To refer to them as “Mormon” is inaccurate.

Mormon is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church discontinued polygamy more than a century ago. No members of the Church today can enter into polygamy without being excommunicated.

When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, terms such as those given in the first paragraph above are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: "The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other ... churches that resulted from the split after (Joseph) Smith's death."
Yes, "Mormon" is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But is it not fair to allow anyone who believes the Book of Mormon is scripture and self-identifies as Mormon to call themselves Mormon? If we want to be called Christians but don't allow anyone else to call themselves Mormons, that seems kind of contradictory. I know it would make things more complicated ("I'm a Mormon." "Oh? What kind?") but it seems fair to me.

Though admittedly I don't know if any of the people in the breakaway groups want to still be called Mormons.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Pink Bunkadoo on April 24, 2009, 10:20:50 PM

Though admittedly I don't know if any of the people in the breakaway groups want to still be called Mormons.

Not that I've actually spoken to any of these people in person (as far as I know) but I've been told that they do refer to themselves as Mormon.  At least the Utah Polygamist ones do.  I imagine there are other groups that don't.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 25, 2009, 06:00:11 AM
Ookla:  Yes, he is called al-Masīḥ, but he is not the Messiah in any meaningful sense (to Christians) in Islam.  He was not divine, he was not ressurrected from the dead, and he was certainly not as great as Muhammad.
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 25, 2009, 07:34:19 AM
Yes, but the literal meaning of the Hebrew/Greek-origin words "messiah/christ" is anointed one, so it's technically correct, though not meaningfully so as you say. I agree that muslims don't think he's christ the way we believe he's Christ, but what Renoard said was not "absolutely incorrect." But it was misleading (even if unintentionally so).
Title: Re: What do you think of Joseph Smith?
Post by: The Jade Knight on April 25, 2009, 07:55:25 AM
Ah, you have me there.

But as far as his using it to show that "Muslims accept Jesus as the Christ", he was incorrect.  Even if, yes, Muslims do call Jesus "the anointed".