Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Shaggy on December 31, 2008, 06:40:50 AM
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I'm curious…has Mr. Rigney gone for the heartbreakingly tragic ending where all the good guys sacrifice their lives for the betterment of the world? Or will he go for a "happily ever after" ending? What do you think?
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Somehow I don't see Rand dying permanently (I wouldn't be mad if he did, but I don't think he will)
I have a feeling something BIG is going to happen though. A Memory of Light is a really thought provoking title. It sounds as if it is from the point of view of someone AFTER Tar'mon Gaidon. Like they remember what it was like to have the One Power, but somehow the One Power has been removed from Randland, never to be touched again. (IE the Wheel is broken and the world no longer repeats itself.
But that is just MY theory. :)
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I could see that as a possible outcome.
(**Possible **SPOILERS** below**)
I thought the title was more of a rallying point. Almost like the forces of the dark come to the point of almost winning. Maybe the dark one gets freed from his prison and the battle is almost lost. In those moments A Memory of Light could be what the good guys think about while turning the tide. In the end all those who are fighting remember what they are fighting for and decide to give it all. Maybe some of the forsaken trade sides. I don't know.
It doesn't seem out of the realm of possabilities for Rand to die. I almost expect it. I do think it would make sense for Matt, Perrin, Elayne, Avienda and Egwene to survive and after Tarmon Gaidon they become the leaders of the New Age. I also think it possable for Moraine to be saved only to die in the end and most likely with Thom in some sort of sacrifice for the greater good.
Thinking about it I do think Rand dies. That opens the characters like Min, Avienda and Elayne up to have there own lives while not being so closely connected after Tarmon Gaidon. I also think it is possable that A Memory of Light could be Egwene dies and all the Asi Sedi realize that they must fight the tyranny in the tower. They all join together with the good Asha Men in a memory of what the tower and the One Source stand for in a final battle of sorts.
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I personally think Rand will die, because he expects it. Before the bonding ceremony with him, Aviendha, Elayne, and Min, the main reason he doesn't want them around him is because he is afraid of hurting them. (1) They could be caught up in an attack on him, but also (2) he *knows* he is going to die and he doesn't want them to have to live with the pain of his death. All the same, I think he'll die, and the three girls will find other people (or maybe they'll all die, too?) to love. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.
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Oh, I think he'll die. But I don't think he'll stay dead.
I'm also not sure that anyone but him will know that he didn't stay dead.
I think the 3 girls will survive.
I wouldn't be surprised if Egwene or Lan died though.
Actually, I take that back, I don't think Lan will die.
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Obviously, the Wheel of Time must be broken (otherwise, the DO would have another chance to control world, kill Rand, etc.). But how will it break? Who will do the breaking? Do you think that the DO is somehow connected to the Wheel, and when he dies, the Wheel breaks? Just a thought….
And also, how is Rand going to kill the DO (I'm assuming Rand is going to kill the DO, unless RJ has decided to uncover a twisted sense of humor and have the DO like fall off a building or something. Or get killed by, like, Wil al'Seen or something. Or one of the other major characters could do it, too, I guess)? WIll it be through the OP, or physical means, or what? Any thoughts?
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I've always felt that the books we are reading are actually what Loial is writing - his book about these events that he starts writing during the events in book 1. Granted, I could easily be wrong about this, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
One thing that excites me, though, is that it was long ago that I read that RJ had written the last scene, and more recently Brandon has said that the last scene, as written by RJ, will appear in the book. This is encouraging, as it means that it wasn't just a "make it up as I go" thing (which I'm pretty sure is how Tolkien wrote LotR), but he had direction and a plan.
I'm looking forward as much as anyone to the release of WoT book 12.
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i allways figured that Rand would die in some way, maybe not permanently but he would die because prophesy says he has to. Mat will live though, i cant remember when but euol had a blog post that said it was a possibility he may write some books about Mat after amol.
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I've always enjoyed RJ's side characters…in particular the woman who fed the forkroot to Elayne and Nynaeve. I don't know why; I just find them amusing. Which characters have you guys enjoyed the most?
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Rand will die, at least temporarily, but it will not last. Perhaps Nynaeve will figure out how to bring someone back to life, as she has been dreaming to do since the series started. Mat will survive according to RJ, as he had plans to write one spinoff novel involving Mat and Tuon. As for the wheel being broken, I seriously doubt this would happen unless the Dark One won the final battle. Remember, the Dark One's goal is to kill time by destroying the Wheel - it is the Wheel that essentially keeps him trapped in his prison completely. And I can't see RJ devising an ending where the Dark One wins, because the point of this entire world is that everything is cyclical, that the Dragon is constantly reborn to fight and defeat the Dark One to save the world. The light will win in the end, although the manner of their victory is a big unknown. RJ is also not the type to come to slaughter all his good guys; he can't even kill off Moiraine in the end. I would be shocked if Egwene died too; she has her, as of yet, unfulfilled dream involving a Seanchan woman saving her. Since the upcoming Seanchan attack on the White Tower would be the perfect opportunity to knock her off, it seems quite improbable that she will meet her demise at all. There has been absolutely no foreshadowing for that, and RJ hints at pretty much everything that happens in this story (although it's often pretty difficult to figure out all the details).
All that being said, I'm greatly anticipating this final volume. There will be a few big surprises I'm sure.
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Smashingsilver, I'm going to have to disagree with you on several points. First of all, Nynaeve will most likely NOT figure out how to bring someone back to life–that would open up too much. Then everyone (including those dead of natural causes) would come back and it just wouldn't work. Yes, Mat will probably survive (he's that kinda guy). Second, I think that the Wheel could maybe be destroyed with the DO losing. If not, then the story has no ending! The DO will just try again next time. And, if the Wheel isn't destroyed, then the book will probably end simply in Rand's Age. Thirdly, you do not know that Moiraine is alive. Yes, it seems so, but we do not really know. She could be merely imprisoned by the Eelfinn/Aelfinn, and is somehow contacting those who are alive (perhaps she's in some kind of limbo world between life and death–somewhere where the Eelfinn/Aelfinn are the dominants). What are your thoughts?
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Moraine is alive as she has seen a potential rescue in the rings, that can succeed or fail. Rand will die but somehow live, as foretold. Whether this is the body swap with Moridin, as they are now linked, or something else is unclear. I suspect some of the forsaken will survive to prevent the series from being smoothly wrapped up. Berelain and Galad will pair up. Lan may die although i could see Lan and Nyneave return to rule a reborn Malkeri. Taim and Logain will have it out at the black tower, and someh ow the peace settlement with the Seanchan between Rand and tuon will anger Egwene. Matt will introdce Tuon to Arthur Hawkwing when he blows the horn. Tuon will return to reclaim Seanchan with Matt at her side. (Hopefully we will see this in a future book.) Bela will live and be revealed as the alter ego of the creator, LOL. Hopefully, Faile and Gawain will die.
Along the way, TRand will reuite with Moraine, the wondergirls will be shocked to discover MAtt is the Prince of the Ravens, Gawain will finally discover Rand did not kill his mother, and Elaine, Galad and Gawain will be reuinted with Mom.
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why do you want Faile and Gawain to die?? I find Faile extremely annoying, but I like Gawain……
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Moraine has to live, Min had a viewing. Rand has to die, but to live he must die. Who knows what that means. Personally I just can't wait to RAFO!!
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Yes, Moiraine has to live. But then she could die! She could *live* up to Min's viewing, then die. So really she could have no further impact on the story, ignoring the fact that certain peoples (Thom, Mat, Noal?) go out of their way to go to the tower thing or whatever it's called.
what's RAFO?
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RAFO - Read And Find Out, which was RJ's classic phrase to answer questions involving points he didn't want to reveal.
One last thing about Moiraine - for RJ to go through all this work to outline a plot to save Moiraine, the strong hints of her future relationship with Thom, and the detailed rules involving the Finns that include a definite way to "cheat" them, and then just have her be dead already or do nothing in the story is extremely unlikely. Mat's not going to lose an eye just for the fun of the adventure.... As for the world of the Finns, Moiraine stated earlier in the story (The Shadow Rising) "That world is... folded... in strange ways", but it is also unlikely it is some kind of life/death dimension. RJ was asked about it in 2000 and he said that world had natural laws, although drastically different from our own. The world of the Finns is most definitely real, and so Moiraine is still alive and waiting, as previously indicated.
The manner of Rand's death and living again is, as mentioned by others, one of the big mysteries of the last book. I actually think it quite unlikely Nynaeve will have anything to do with it, but I wouldn't be surprised. It is probably more likely that it has something to do with Moridin and the body swap, however.
Shaggy, your point about the story never ending is actually pretty accurate. That is the whole point of the story: "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time." If the Wheel were to be destroyed, everything RJ wrote about, the philosophy of everything repeating would have to be ignored. Remember, our time has already occurred in Rand's time, and will eventually occur again. Think of the legends and tales Randlanders tell each other, involving Elsbet the queen of the whole world, Mosk & Merk fighting each other, Lenn flying to the moon...these are all obvious references to our recent history. If the Wheel were to stop turning, that would mean that our world would not occur again. While that is possible, I would suggest it extremely unlikely.
Also, in Lord of Chaos, Herid Fel tells Rand that the Dark One needs to be sealed in his prison for the Wheel of Time to turn. If the Dark One breaks free, he will break the Wheel of Time and remake Time and the world in his own image. Actually, that entire discussion (chapter 16) between Rand & Herid reveals a lot of interesting details regarding the Wheel philosophy.
Finally, it's "Gawyn", not Gawain...even though that's the legendary character that RJ obviously modeled Gawyn after.
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I agree. Moiraine is definitely going to live and might play a pivotal role in the ending of AMOL. But this thread is about who will be alive when the story is over. Some people are going to have to die, even if it's just the bad guys (unless RJ pulls a D.J. MacHale and brings everyone back to life, which I sincerely hope he doesn't). Yes, Moiraine lives, but will she survive the Last Battle?
Smashingsilver, you said "If the Wheel were to be destroyed, everything RJ wrote about, the philosophy of everything repeating would have to be ignored." But maybe that's the point. What if RJ used the destruction of the Wheel as a metaphor, showing how at last, the timeless struggle of the Light is no longer timeless. The Dark One is dead. Finished. A new order is here. The Wheel represents all that (hopefully, by the end of AMOL) no longer exists–Fades, Trollocs (although there will undoubtedly be survivors), Darkfriends…with time and effort, they will all be eradicted. The destruction of the Wheel will keep them that way.
Yes, that discussion has some very good points in it. However, the point you took from that discussion, "If the Dark One breaks free, he will break the Wheel of Time and remake Time and the world in his own image." can be switched around. (1) If the DO breaks free, and Rand/someone kills him, he won't be able to remake Time and the world in his own image. And also, that sentence does not necessarily imply that the DO is connected to the Wheel–it could mean that after he breaks free, he will intentionally break the Wheel, not that his breaking free causes the Wheel to break. And if the DO can break the Wheel of Time…what if Rand and his allies can, too?
I know, I'm sorry, I'm been reading t oo much history. RJ said he was a history buff, and I really believe him. I have found so many parallels between his writing/characters and real historical figures. (Merrilin/Merlin, al'Thor/Arthur, Elayne/Elayne, Gawyn/Gawain, etc.)
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Destruction of the Wheel would bring abouyt the end of the universe, so, in that case, everyone dies.
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Not necessarily. Yes, the Pattern is connected to the Wheel, but if the Wheel is destroyed, technically couldn't the Pattern survive?
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I don't think so. The Wheel spins out the Pattern. So without the Wheel no more Pattern.
I don't think that RJ will break the Wheel. A lot of his foreshadowing has been geared toward rebirth and reincarnation. With the Wheel of Time being at the center, RJ had already alluded to the fact that in ages past the battle has been fought before, time without end.
The last book probably wouldn't change that. IMO :D
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True….
I've been thinking about how the Dark One's gonna die, and if I had to guess I'd say he'd get hit by balefire. Any other thoughts?
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I dont think the Dark One will, or can, die. In order to "die" he would have to cancel out Light. typical when autors use Light and dark (day/night, whatever) to describe good and evil, their destruction can only come about by combining, or cancelling, with the other force (also see "Ruin" and "Preservation" in Mistborn). You cannot have Good without Evil. The Dark One does not die here, but maybe "bottled up" again, waiting for the next cycle of ages to restart the whole process again.
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But the death of the Dark One does not necessarily mean all evil will be gone–far from it. There will be Fades, Trollocs, Darkfriends, and everyone else who followed him still in existence. And plus, it is quite possible to be evil without following or having any connection with the Dark One. Frankly, I don't think just shutting him up again and waiting for next year would be a fitting end to the saga (unless it's changed up a little).
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I want Gawyn to die because he is so annoying for several reasons
He is a lovesick puppy dog
He is so annoying in assuming Rand killed his mom
He is fighting on the wrong side in the tower
He should have left the tower to go help his sister at Andor, as he is or was to be first prince of the sword, although now he appears destined to become tbe consort of the Amyrlyn.
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Why on earth would characters that actually mean something get killed off now when it hasn't happened in the prior 3.5 Million words of the series? This isnt a Steven Erikson or a George R R Martin series.
No, the more likely scenario is that the hints laid out in the past suggesting that people who make an insanely large impact get bound to the wheel. As a previous poster said, the whole point of the WoT is that there is no beginning nor end. You can have A beginning. You can have AN end. However, neither of those will stop the WoT from turning.
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You all bring up some interesting possiblities. The one thing I must disagree with is the prospect of the Wheel breaking. I'm pretty sure that the only one that would actualy want that to happen is the DO. The Wheel is the force that drives life to destroy that would cause nothing but chaos and death so, why would the good guys want that? Here are a couple of things that I believe might happen in AMoL:
Spoilers ahead
1. Galad, even though he hates Rand, will join the Whitecloaks to Rand's cause, after realizing that it is the greatest good he can do.
2. Rand survives but somehow Lew's Therin finally dies completely. Thus, fullfilling the Karatheon Prophecy that the Dragon will die during Tarmon Gaidon.
3. Moiraine is saved by Matt and Thom and is returned with crucial knowledge concerning how to win Tarmon Gaidon.
4. One of the Forsaken will help Rand win Tarmon Gaidon not sure which one but I'm leaning toward Graendal.
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2. Rand survives but somehow Lew's Therin finally dies completely. Thus, fullfilling the Karatheon Prophecy that the Dragon will die during Tarmon Gaidon.
3. Moiraine is saved by Matt and Thom and is returned with crucial knowledge concerning how to win Tarmon Gaidon.
4. One of the Forsaken will help Rand win Tarmon Gaidon not sure which one but I'm leaning toward Graendal.
I agree with all of those. BTW, I voted one or two...though...I'm sure there will be a couple. I can't wait to read that book! ARGG
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You can't blame the man; he's just ignorant! (Although he is rather annoying….)
In response to the book store guy…read "Mistborn."
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In "Knife of Dreams" Rand loses a hand. What would everyone think if, Rand went through the same ceremony as Elaine and Aviendha, However, instead of just strengthening the bond, Rand is Reborn and has both hands again???
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I don't think it works that way. The ceremony Elaine and Aviendha went through–I think they and some (all?) of the people in the room felt like they were going through it, but it was an illusion. Elaine and Aviendha weren't physically reborn–it just wouldn't make sense. And, also, just because they were "reborn" doesn't mean they were perfectly healed–if all their illnesses and pains were taken away, I am sure Rj (through Elaine and Aviendha) would have mentioned something.
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RJ was planning to write other novels in the WOT universe, so I don’t think that the wheel will be broken or the One Power will be destroyed.
Possible Spoilers****
I think Rand battles the Dark One, dies, returns as the Light, defeats the Dark One, and becomes one with the wheel keeping it turning. Rand is dead, but he’s not, so a memory of light would be a memory of Rand.
I have to ask about a minor story line, that of Birgette Silverbow and Gaidel Kain. In the world of dreams its revealed that when they get recycled that they always find one another no matter what. He got recycled and she got yanked out of the dream world.
For the longest time I thought that Mat’s memories were Gaidel Kain's, and that Birgette was the Daughters of the Nine Moons. They met in the bar once, I think it was their only meeting, and they seemed to have a connection between one another. I know about Tuon, but does anyone think that Birgette also could be the Daughter of the Nine Moons?
Everyone else seems to be connected to 2 or 3 women why not Mat? Or is Gaidel the ugly kid following Mat around. This story line always stuck out to me, and I don’t know why.
Anyone have any other thoughts about this story line?
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I'm not sure that Birgitte could really be the Daughter of the Nine Moons…. The DotNM (abb.) is a Seanchan title, and has been for many, many years. It was clear that it was currently held by a person while Birgitte was still attached to the Wheel in Tel'aran'rhiod. The timing just doesn't really work when you think about it.
Also, the differences (even tiny details) between Mat and Gaidal are rather large. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Gaidal has always been a rather ugly human when spun from the wheel–and from what we seen, Mat certainly is not. And I also think that Gaidal has always been of a willful, brave, stand-and-fight nature. Mat is willful, and brave (this could certainly be debated), but I think he would often run and save himself then risk the chance of dying by staying and fighting. These are my thoughts.
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[SpoilersBelow]
I am sure that Tuon is the DotNM and not Birgitte. I recall one scene toward the end KoD where Tuon finalized her Seanchan-tradition marriage to Mat by speaking his name three times in quick succession. Once Tuon spoke Mat's name for the final time the dice rolling in Mat's head stopped. That indicated to me that Mat had done what he was supposed to do, marry the DotNM.
That ugly kid following Mat around is Olver. RJ has confirmed that Olver is not Gaidal Cain.
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You guys are probably right, it’s been a long time since I’ve read the series. I was thinking that perhaps at one time Birgette was weaved out as a Seanchan, so that she could be the DotNM. I also never thought that Mat was Gaidel just that he possessed all his battle memories. But as you guys have pointed out that is probably not the case
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On another point, I’ve read one posting here and a lot of posts elsewhere about RJ not killing off any of his characters. If you’re going to plan a series around the idea that it’s going to end in a huge battle, which I hope is at least a 100-200 pages, then you need to have characters that people care about.
What I find exciting about this series is that its RJ’s first epic fantasy series he’s done that’s his own. We don’t know if he’s going to kill everyone off or not because he doesn’t have a history of him doing so or not. When this big massive battle begins we should have 8-10 different points of view of the same battle, and when that first major character is killed off it’ll have everyone who’s grown up with these characters on the edge of their seats! Personally, I think that a lot of characters are going to die in AMoL, whether or not their returned from the dead I don’t know.
Anyone else think that the last paragraph of AMoL will be the same as the first paragraph of the first chapter of every WOT book?
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It definitely could be….But you know how after every book in WoT, RJ ends the book with a quote/poem/prophesy from some characters from his story? Maybe that will be the quote….
I personally hope RJ kills off at least some characters in AMoL. I find a book much more powerful and gripping if the author creates characters who the readers can associate with and like, and then kills (some of) them off. (But not if they just like fall off a building and die by accident. It has to be meaningful.)
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As far as death goes, I feel that characters shouldn't die just so you can say that somebody died. I also think it can be taken too far, where almost everybody dies (I'm looking at you, G.R.R.M!)
However, if nobody dies I think the book is cheapened a bit. There has to be a cost. It has to be real.
As far as the WOT goes, I am almost certain Rand will die. He's setting himself up to be a martyr, he thinks he is going to die (although normally if Rand thinks something, he's wrong.)
It seems like there is some intentional symbolism that Rand is a bit like the Christ; the Crown of Thorns, the pierced side, his hand. The prophecy is that he will die to save the world. Whether he will be ressurected like Christ I don't know; it depends on if the analogy is purposeful, and how far RJ will take it.
Personally I hope that Rand will not be ressurected, as that cheapens his death. Makes it feel like it didn't matter. But we shall see!
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I think Semirhage will escape through Elza, and Caddy will waltz along and fight them both when Semi and Elza is linked. Now.....if only Nynaeve was there.....Caddy would die from Semi, killing Elza, and Nyna. would kill Semi., and Cadsuane would bestow her jewelry to Nynaeve. :o :o That would be awesome. *hides from the stares*
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I agree with you, Reaves. Killing off characters just for the sake of having people die can ruin a story. You are also correct in saying that everybody shouldn't die–this isn't 'I Am Legend.'
Although I don't think this will happen, I think it would be cool if Rand got Elayne, Aviendha, or Min pregnant and then dies. Then it would be like he was passing his legacy down to his child. I don't know, I just think that'd be cool.
Um…Raphael, not to be mean or anything, but I think it's sort of a good thing that Mr. Sanderson's writing the story…no offense.
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RJ hasn't really shown an inclination to kill anyone but bad guys in his previous works. And since this series seems to be his Epic Fantasy written from the stereotype (genre), I think that he would have continued along in that vein. Since Epic Fantasy was mainly about escapism, the ultimate cost of death really isn't satisfying.
That said, Visions and prophesies have already alluded to Rand surviving. Min had a vision in which he and The Dragon would split. Rand took that to mean that he was not insane, that the voice in his head was real. Along with most of the other Visions, and Reaves' take about the Christ symbolism; I would think that Rand survives and Lews Therin Telamon (who wants to die), sacrifices himself for the good of all mankind. Or something like that. ;D
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But the vision where he splits from the Dragon doesn't necessarily mean he becomes separate from Lews Therin Telamon; it could be more metaphorical (aren't Min's visions often so?). For example, it could mean that he becomes separate from the responsibilities and stuff of the Dragon.
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that vision of Min's was one of the things I was specifically thinking of when Rand is certain it means one thing and I am certain he is wrong. I think that vision has something to do with Moridin, and Rand's connection with him.
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I could be wrong but I think that most of Min's visions have actually come about quite literal. Maybe not in ways we expected, but the way that they were worded. Perrin got his falcon in Faile.
It just seems too far of a reach for RJ to start killing characters at this point. There's been nothing in the other books to support that kinda thing.
*************Spoiler**************************
(Except when Rand faced Ravin, and nobody stayed dead that time.)
That by itself suggests what could happen, and would also stay within the style of his writtings.
True Reaves, I had never really thought about that connection to Min's vision. And it could very well be just that.
I just find it hard to credit that RJ would kill major protagonists at this late juncture.
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If only Faile would die......*sigh* Wishful thinking.
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If only Faile would die......*sigh* Wishful thinking.
Really? I like her most of the time. It's Baerelain (sp?) that annoys me the most. :D
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I wish Faile would die, too. All she does is go around, muttering about the art of controlling a husband, get captured by more people, act important, and then make Perrin risk his neck to go save her.
Necroben- How many thirteen-book series' have you read where major characters die halfway through?
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Necroben- How many thirteen-book series' have you read where major characters die halfway through?
None. On the other hand, they didn't die at all. Taking that much time with a character then killing them really proves nothing (to my mind) with the story other than the author can. From what I've seen of series that have ten+ books major characters live. It seems a staple of the Epic Fantasy sub-genre.
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I’m torn in how I think the ending will go. I agree that it doesn’t seem to be RJ’s style to start whacking people at the end, but it also would seem to be anti-climatic to have a final battle where only the bad guys die. I think some of the good guys have to die in one form or another, don’t they? I could see that while Rand was battling the Dark One, that characters would sacrifice themselves to protect Rand from sabotage. Sacrificing one’s self for the greater good fits into RJ’s writing style doesn’t it? Moraine did it. They could be resurrected later after the battle. Didn’t Rand bring Mat back to life after accidentally killing him once? Or after dying they could be sent to the world of dreams where they could be communicated with.
This was the first fantasy series I have ever read, before that I only read political thrillers and historical non-fiction. Robert Jordan is the first author that caused me to lose days off, where I would spend all day reading. Brandon Sanderson is the only other author that has caused me to lose days off. With that being said, I will be so disappointed if this series ends where the good guys win, the bad guys die, and Rand and his three wives live happily ever after…so disappointed…
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RJ hasn't really shown an inclination to kill anyone but bad guys in his previous works. And since this series seems to be his Epic Fantasy written from the stereotype (genre), I think that he would have continued along in that vein. Since Epic Fantasy was mainly about escapism, the ultimate cost of death really isn't satisfying.
That said, Visions and prophesies have already alluded to Rand surviving. Min had a vision in which he and The Dragon would split. Rand took that to mean that he was not insane, that the voice in his head was real. Along with most of the other Visions, and Reaves' take about the Christ symbolism; I would think that Rand survives and Lews Therin Telamon (who wants to die), sacrifices himself for the good of all mankind. Or something like that. ;D
***SPOILER****
Elayne is already pregnant with Rand's babies......
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I can't wait to read the end of WoT no matter how it ends. From the way the rest of the books have ended I think few (if any) of the main characters will die. In fact, none of the original main characters from the first book (and their significant other(s)) have died (permanently) in any of the other 11 books. It has taken 11 books for some of these characters to finally find their significant other. I don't expect RJ to kill any of them off in the last book. It seems like RJ has gone through too much work to tell the story of all these different characters and finally get them with their right partners to not let any of them live past the end of AMOL. Having said that I'm sure the ending will be gut wrenching and incredible, like many of the endings have been in WoT. Having said that, I think the story should end however RJ wanted it to end, if he ends up killing some of the main characters then it will be a surprise to me, but that would then be the "correct" ending. It's his story. :)
About Rand ... The foreshadowing and prophecies seem to hint Rand will sacrifice himself and (probably) die at Tarmon Gaiden. I think Rand/Lews Theron will somehow die, but somehow live when it's all said and done. I'm sure RJ will add some cool twists in there and surprise us to how that will all happen. I'm sure if I were to try and guess any more specifically then that I would be completely wrong, but those are currently my general guesses for AMOL.
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SPOILER
Elayne is already pregnant with Rand's babies......
!!! quicktheorytimenow!!!!
Elayne is Ilyena reborn, Lews Therin's wife. That's why Rand loves her.
Min is who Rand would have loved if he wasn't the Dragon.
Avhienda is an affect of the Rand/Moridin connection; if Moridin were Rand, he would have loved Avhienda.
...Either that, or each of the three girls is 1/3 of Ilyena reborn.
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Vatdoro–As I have already said…how many 13-book series' have you read where main characters die in the beginning? None, I bet. So of course Rand, Matin, Perrin, Moiraine, etc. haven't died yet!
Analogy–a story is like a pattern. Each character is a thread, and other threads (other characters and events) split off from that thread. Cut one main thread, and an entire part of the story could be cut off.
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You can't blame the man; he's just ignorant! (Although he is rather annoying….)
In response to the book store guy…read "Mistborn."
I gotta assume the "read Mistborn" comment is for me. I have. I read it more than 6 months before it was released. I pimped it out at the Black Friday signing Brandon did for Elantris back in the day. I Set up Brandon's pre-release signing for Mistborn 1 which was a pretty huge success. All that being said, your comment makes no sense. I was commenting that I doubted many main characters--good guys anyway--would die (if any). That's just not how this story has been told so far. If the ending RJ wrote has some deaths in it, fine, but it will make it harder for me to buy-into. Mistborn doesn't follow any of this theory-crafting. Brandon isn't shy about killing off characters in his own books. But AMoL isn't his book. The ending is already written. So, I'm confused what you mean.
I'm pretty sure Necroben is thinking along the same lines as me. Oh, and as far as Major Fantasy Series having MAJOR characters getting killed off early, it happens all the time. Erikson and Martin are the big players in that realm.
Yes, my response is late. I don't really read these boards much.
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Remember Kelsier?
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Remember Kelsier?
I fail to see how that is relevant. This isn't Brandon's book, the list of who lives and who dies was written by Robert Jordan.
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Who are you?
And I don't even remember what we were talking about.
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A couple of thoughts to help throw fire on this debate:
1) The entire Wheel of Time series is one story. Sure, the first book has a halfway decent ending, but even it has some dangling ends (like the last paragraph). Thus it is absolutely impossible to know who lives and who dies based on previous books. I've only read one story by RJ (the Wheel of Time) and I haven't seen the end, so his "death style" is completely unknown. Some main characters will certainly survive. Some may well die.
2) There seems to be some fairly heavy foreshadowing and symbolism that Rand will be a Christic character. However, this is not the only character he has symbolic links to (King Arthur and various gods come to mind; see the Wheel of Time FAQ for a much better list than I could do). Thus it is eminently reasonable to assume that something very odd will happen with his death (I personally would be very surprised if it didn't), but more than a little bit hazardous to guess what, exactly, the oddity will be. A few choices, with no particular attachment on my part to each:
a) He fakes his death and then comes back at a key moment. To the public it large, it looks like he has died and been resurrected.
b) Very unusual circumstances combine to actually resurrect him after an actual death. Nynaeve may be involved.
c) Lews Therin dies/gets reintegrated but Rand continues.
d) He actually dies and somebody else somehow steps in to take his place perfectly.
Anyway, I refuse to be drawn beyond these assumptions. I just like to keep an open mind about what is possible.
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Oh, and as far as Major Fantasy Series having MAJOR characters getting killed off early, it happens all the time. Erikson and Martin are the big players in that realm.
I'm going to argue that with the exception of Kelsier from Mistborn, that if a major character dies early in a series he's not really that major of a character. Kelsier is different because he is the foundation of a religion, so the series would be vastly different if he didn't die.
a) He fakes his death and then comes back at a key moment. To the public it large, it looks like he has died and been resurrected.
Why would he fake his death in the last book? That would fit about as nicely as having the Enola Gay fly over Tarmon Gai'don and drop a atomic bomb on everyone...
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a) He fakes his death and then comes back at a key moment. To the public it large, it looks like he has died and been resurrected.
b) Very unusual circumstances combine to actually resurrect him after an actual death. Nynaeve may be involved.
c) Lews Therin dies/gets reintegrated but Rand continues.
d) He actually dies and somebody else somehow steps in to take his place perfectly.
Anyway, I refuse to be drawn beyond these assumptions. I just like to keep an open mind about what is possible.
Or one that I kind of like:
e) He dies and his essence/spirit/soul take over someone elses body.
(I agree, I don't see him faking his death.)
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Remember Kelsier?
I fail to see how that is relevant. This isn't Brandon's book, the list of who lives and who dies was written by Robert Jordan.
Exactly. What does Kelsier making a martyr of himself have to do with RJ's WoT? Im not picking a fight, im just saying that we need to keep the 2 stories separate.
Oh, and as far as Major Fantasy Series having MAJOR characters getting killed off early, it happens all the time. Erikson and Martin are the big players in that realm.
I'm going to argue that with the exception of Kelsier from Mistborn, that if a major character dies early in a series he's not really that major of a character. Kelsier is different because he is the foundation of a religion, so the series would be vastly different if he didn't die.
No disrespect to my friend Brandon, but he hardly has the monopoly on being the only author to have an important character die early on. If you have read Martin, then you know that Edard Stark was an EXTREMELY important character. If you've read Erikson, then you know that Whiskyjack was perhaps the MOST important character up until the point he bites it. By your same argument, the entire face of these fantasy series (6 total stories in Martin's world and 13 in Erikson's) would have been drastically altered. However, I do agree with you that the death of a character hardly matters in the least if their death has no ramifications on the rest of the story.
1) The entire Wheel of Time series is one story. Sure, the first book has a halfway decent ending, but even it has some dangling ends (like the last paragraph). Thus it is absolutely impossible to know who lives and who dies based on previous books. I've only read one story by RJ (the Wheel of Time) and I haven't seen the end, so his "death style" is completely unknown. Some main characters will certainly survive. Some may well die.
I see what you are saying, but my opinion is that this isnt fully accurate. I feel it is pretty easy to tell how a story may be told from the previous portions of a story. Brandon killed off Kelsier in the "first section" of the story. So it was full expected of him to kill of main characters in "parts" 2 and 3. George R R Martin makes it pretty obvious after the first part of his story that no one is safe. Erikson is the same. Joe Abercrombie has his own pattern. No matter how long the story, or how many volumes it is broken up into, you begin to see a pattern to individual stories. Now, RJ could very well have decided that he wanted to kill everyone at the end, but i doubt it. His early sections of the story dont show any precedent for that. He cares too much for them, and has worked too many loop-holes into the series to allow for the escape of whomever he desires.
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No disrespect to my friend Brandon, but he hardly has the monopoly on being the only author to have an important character die early on. If you have read Martin, then you know that Edard Stark was an EXTREMELY important character. If you've read Erikson, then you know that Whiskyjack was perhaps the MOST important character up until the point he bites it. By your same argument, the entire face of these fantasy series (6 total stories in Martin's world and 13 in Erikson's) would have been drastically altered. However, I do agree with you that the death of a character hardly matters in the least if their death has no ramifications on the rest of the story.
Orson Scott card did it in Empire and Isaac asimov did it in the Foundation series as well.
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If you have not read book 5 or later do not continue
Disclaimer!!!
The opinions below are not necessarily those of the author, merely pointing out another perspective
/Disclaimer
Lunatic rant
RJ has actually killed off at least a couple of mid-major characters (Ingtar, Mangin, Bornhald, Niall), and one who could easily be called major (Moraine)
About Moraine, there has been much forshadowing (mostly by Min) that she isn't really dead. At one point Min even questions if there is something wrong with her ability saying that the only viewing that had ever failed was where Rand would not win the last battle without the help of a woman who is "dead and gone". While some think this is a clear indication that she will be back that is not necessary for the story. Perhaps the last battle is one by The Dark One and the Wheel is broken. Remember this is called the "3rd age" by some. No one can really say which time around this 3rd/4th age is. Maybe this is the time it gets broken.
/lunatic rant
Please before calling me crazy, read the disclaimer above
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If you have read Martin, then you know that Edard Stark was an EXTREMELY important character. If you've read Erikson, then you know that Whiskyjack was perhaps the MOST important character up until the point he bites it.
First off I'm on page 167 of Gardens of the Moon, so please try and be vague if talking about Eriksons work. No big deal I was thinking that Whiskeyjack was going to get knocked off. Martin is ok.
I'm going to engage in a little word play and see if you'll agree with me or not. I would say that an Important character and a major character are different. In that a important character sets more of a foundation for other characters on how and why they act as they do. A major character would be one that has the story line revolve around them.
I'll try not to get to far off topic. It's been a while since I've read a Game of Thrones, so correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't that story been told with Eddard Stark already dead? He could have spoon fed us information about who he was and what he did through other family members. Granted it wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic, but the story would've ended up right where it is now, wouldn't it? Where as if Jon Snow were to have been eaten by his wolf on page 200, that would've changed a large part of the story.
One of the reasons why I like the WOT is that it's easy to suspend disbelief. I find the world is believable, the characters are believable, and the magic system makes sense. When I think about where this story started from and where it's heading, it just doesn't seem believable that everyone walks away alive.
If it is one thing that I would place money on it's that Rand is either going to die, or he is going to become some higher power. Perhaps he'll become the One Power. Either way he won't be a part of the world in my opinion. Think of it this way, Rand is already fulfilling prophecy, so he has become a religious figure. Lets say he battles the Dark One and wins, no one dies. Then what? According to prophecy his skin is going to rot, and he's already missing limbs, so basically he'll be an ugly cripple. From there I only see two options. Either he becomes a farmer which would be anticlimactic, or he'd become king of the world which would suck also.
That's just why I think that some characters are going to die in the final book.
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i see what you are getting at, Publius. You could easily make that distinction, but i dont think they are mutually exclusive. After all, in Mistborn, Kelsier's impact on Vin is much more important than his own actions as a character. Does that mean that he isn't a Major Character? I think you'd agree with me by saying he sure the heck IS a major player.
You bring up a very interest point with the Eddard Stark character. Could the story have been told with him already dead? I dont see why not. But you could say the same with Kelsier. Or with, say, any other major character in most novels. It doesnt mean the story will be better or worse, but you can do it. Game of Thrones would have been a really crappy novel without Eddard (in my opinion). A majority of the entire plot was centered around his character (including the very title of the novel). Yes, his impact on other characters is probably the more important aspect of his character, but I think he is definitely a Major character. Him dying in book 1, to me, would be like Lan in WoT biting the dust at the end of book 1. Think of how much of a story impact that is.
As for Erikson, sorry for the spoiler. You dont have to worry about it for a bit. Book 1 is a bit of a rough climb, but you'll see what I mean by Major characters at the ends of books 2 and 3 (they run on concurrent timelines). I have read very few books that have endings as powerful as those 2 novels. You will love em (even if you feel shell-shocked after).
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The three primary characters of the story (Rand, Mat & Perrin) could not die up to this point because it has been prophesied that they are all essential to success at Tarmon Gaidon. Thus, when Mat had the building fall on him at the end of book 7, it was obvious that he was not dead, even though we never heard from again until well into book 9. We also know from RJ's comments that Mat will survive (and Tuon), because he was planning to write a spinoff book about them. Perrin is also highly probable to survive and have some share of ruling Saldaea with Faile in the future.
Rand of course is the big mystery. The vision of Logain walking over a puppet-faced Rand on his way to glory (see Egwene's dream in ACOS, Ch. 10) implies that Rand may fake his death and allow Logain to rule in his place. Whether that is over the Ashaman or some portion of Rand's empire remains to be seen. Also, it is possible this occurs earlier in the story of AMOL so that Rand is free to focus solely on Tarmon Gaidon, free of political maneuvering. I think it is highly probably that Rand does die in some form during the end of AMoL; there is too much foreshadowing of his death to ignore it. As to how that is finally resolved...any of the theories mentioned in this topic is possible.
Nynaeve & Lan are also likely to survive - Lan's upcoming run through the Borderlands, gathering the scattered Malkieri to his side, will likely help set up his post-Tarmon Gaidon future of ruling the rebuilt kingdom of Malkier. Unfortunately, there aren't any prophecies that refer to this, so this is just speculation. It is also possible that Lan & his Malkieri will die in the attempt to hold back the Shadow at Tarwin's Gap. I just don't think it likely.
Elayne will at least survive until her babies are born, which will take several months (she is two months pregnant as of the end of KoD). Since the books are currently covering approximately a month of time per volume, I'm guessing that these births won't happen until after the main part of the story is over (perhaps in an Epilogue of AMoL). Aviendha is also supposed to have Rand's babies, but as far as we know she is not pregnant yet (or at the very least, even more recently than Elayne). This is because Elayne & Aviendha's sister-bonding experience forbid anyone being pregnant - the Aiel wise women involved would have detected if this was the case and stopped the process immediately. It's possible they did it behind the scenes since then...but then the same explanation for Elayne would apply here as well. Min we have no idea about, although it is expected that she is one of the three women who mourns Rand's death in her own viewing of Rand from TEOTW. Unless that is part of the trickery of Rand faking his death...
Egwene I am unsure about. If there was ever a time for her to die, it would be when the Seanchan attack the White Tower. It's quite possible Gawyn chooses wrong and picks the path in which he would try to kill her, but since she had her own dream about the Seanchan swordwoman helping to save her live...it's likely that any attempt to kill her during this attack would be unsuccessful. I don't see how Gawyn would be caught in any other situation to kill her aside from the upcoming attack, where he would be forced to choose a side that may not be the same as Egwene's. Egwene is also prophesied to bond Gawyn, which throws a wrench into her possible death. I guess that could happen before the attack, but then it would be highly doubtful a warder would kill his own Aes Sedai. Too much uncertainty on this one, but I would guess that Egwene indeed does survive and becomes Amyrlin over whatever Aes Sedai are remaining after Tarmon Gaidon. Assuming the White Tower even survives....
That's all I've got for now - need time to think about the other 50 important secondary characters.
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Wow. That was a lot. But good stuff all through.
Bookstore Guy—are you saying that we can't make comparisons between the books? 'Cause pretty much everyone is doing that. I'm just making a comparison–we're debating a point, and I'm using evidence (?) from other books of the same genre who back up my side. There's nothing wrong with that. (And frankly, I don't even remember what the original argument was).
Some people have to die. I stand by that statement. If all the good guys survive…it becomes a bit too much like a fairy tale. I don't think that will happen.
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I think you'd agree with me by saying he sure the heck IS a major player.
For the one book, yes. For the entire series as a whole, no. The point that you made about Kelsier, about his story being told postmortem, I thought about that while I was writing my last post. I'm torn on that one because he didn't just die. He died doing something huge, but I suppose it could have been told in a different way. So I suppose by my own definition of important/major characters Kelsier would be an important character. So the major characters in Mistborn would be Vin Elend, and Sazed, those three surviving to the end is detrimental to the overall storyline. Everyone else is minor/important characters.
There are two reasons why I believe that RJ didn't kill any major characters up to this point. Considering that he is building up to this huge epic last battle he needs a lot of characters, and if he starts killing them off he'd have to replace them. When you kill off characters you run the risk of replacing them with less inspiring characters. GRRM's series I think is a good example. Storm of Swords was an unbelievably good book, but Feast of Crows came out, and I found that I had little interest in the new characters. That's one reason.
The second reason is the way that RJ has told this story. Everyone is connected to one another, and we really don't know why. Rand is connected to Mat, Perrin on one side, and Elayne, Avienda, Min on the other. He's also connected to Egwene, Logain and Mazrim Taim. Egwene is connected to Nyneave who's connected to Lan whose was connected to Moraine whose connected back to Rand. Mat is connected to the Daughter of the Nine Moons whose connected to the Seanchan whose connected back to Rand. And so on and so on.
I believe that all these characters will play an important part in the final battle. What their part is we don't know until we read it. I think that some characters are important because they will sacrifice themselves protecting Rand. My only other guess whose going to die other than Rand is Perrin. And that is me just reading into something that probably is nothing. RJ said he was going to write another novel about Mat and Tuon, and I thought that was weird because I thought that Perrin and Faile would make an equally interesting outrigger novel why not write that also? Unless Perrin doesn't survive the final battle. See, might be reading into nothing.
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Also, you have to remember Perrin's relationship with the wolves. When they fight in the Last Hunt, I'm pretty sure all the wolves will willingly give up their lives to kill some real bad guys–Darkfriends, Trollocs, (especially) Fades (in one of the books, they say how a hundred wolves would give up their lives to kill one Fade), etc. (I don't say they would save good guys, because I think it has been shown that they are not aware of and find it hard to distinguish different humans (considering they call them 'two-legs).) But, since Perrin is sorta two-thirds human and one-third wolf, he has a little bit of both in him. So–he would (most likely) give up his life to kill someone bad enough (if he had already done some serious damage), and, since he understands the humans and is aware of their goals, he would not hesitate to give up his life for Rand's, or, say, Moiraine's. So I think it is very likely he will die, too.
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Firstly, I didn't think about how tightly wound the WoT was as it relates to main characters dying when I made my initial comments, but I think the tight plotting actually supports my views that we don't actually know RJ's character-killing tendencies.
This series has been winding down to a predetermined conclusion for a very long time. We don't know what this conclusion is, but it is going to involve everybody, both major and minor characters. The most important characters have major roles to play. From a literary perspective, we have to at least get them all to the last battle so the pattern's weave can be complete. However, this means that all of the precursors to the last battle tell us nothing about the nature of the battle itself. They are different parts of a single story, and what happens during the last battle will be different from everything that has gone before. I would say that all bets are off for the last book.
These comments are going to be slightly tangential to the previous discussion.
Many people (I've seen it before) talk about restoring this or restoring that after the last battle: bringing back the Age of Legends, bring back Malkieri, Perrin discovering the song, etc. That's not surprising; it's a common fantasy trope. However, it seems wildly out of whack with the Wheel of Time mythos. What is going to come after the Last Battle will be different than what came before, probably wildly different. The age of legends isn't coming back for another what, 5 ages? 6 ages? I expect the last battle to be as cataclysmic as the breaking of the world or global thermonuclear war. Malkieri isn't coming back because in all likelihood there won't be a place to bring it back. The "song" doesn't really exist, if you read the story closely.
Sorry. This is a bit of a peeve of mine. However, I would be much more willing to be on things like "The One Power becomes inaccessible" or "Wolfbrothers become the new nobility" than on any restoration of anything in human memory with the WoT.
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Shaggy - I think you are misunderstanding what I saying. What I am saying is that using Brandon's personal work as evidence how RJ will end the WoT doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you were comparing a Brandon Book to a Brandon book, then sure. Or a RJ book to a RJ book, sure. If two people's novels were written at the same relative time, and they had very striking similarities, then sure, comparisons are natural (Martin vs Erikson, Goodkind vs Jordan, Butcher vs Richardson vs all other Urban Fantasy). But RJ and Brandon's story ideas are pretty different on the whole. Like I said, I just think that using one author to prove how another author wrote his own novel's end seems a bit off in this case.
Publius - Yeah, we are totally walking in a very gray area. I think we could each decide that Character A could be considered Major or 'just' important. See, i'd argue that if a character makes a huge impact in 1 book and that impact affects how other main character majorly act, then to me thats a major character. You are totally right about the dangers of killing off people though. You better have an amazing replacement. Good call there.
Happyman - I hope to heck that you are right. I hope characters bite-it left and right at the end. I dont think it likely, but I hope it happens. Because up until now, I've never felt any character was in any danger (one of my main criticisms). There has always been something that pulls them out of the fire. Sure they get hurt here and there, but I've never expected any character to be in danger of dying up to this point. Unless balefire is involved, it's hard to consider anyone dead or in danger of dying at all. I do want to point out to you that I could argue that, in say, Steven Erikson's series (13 total stories so far), you know from very early on that characters can and will die. It gives his series a pattern. I consider that series to be just long story just like you consider WoT to be the same. Therefore, I could argue that the lack of deaths that "stick" in WoT hints that the ending may very likely be the same. But, I do see your point, and I hope you are right. It would redeem the series for me.
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Happyman,
I think the notions about Perrin discovering the song and Lan bringing back the Malkiar (sp) are more born of specific forshadowing from the books. Either Min viewings, or Egwene/Perrin dreams have hinted at these things happening.
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Happyman—I agree. But I do think that RJ will (has?) put his own spin on the ending of WoT that will make us all smile, nod our heads, and say that it was the perfect ending.
Bookstore guy—I don't really remember (it was a long time and many posts ago), but I think I was making a point about the genre when I used Kelsier/Mistborn as an example. Also, what you said to happyman seems very familiar to me. When I was much younger, my attempts at stories almost always failed miserably–I grew too attached to my characters, and thus did not want to kill (or even hurt) them. So the good guys won pretty much every fight and it got pretty boring after a while. Lol.
I think the song is going to turn out to exist–and to be something that only RJ would think of ;D
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I understand why people doubt that RJ will kill any off his characters because he hasn't killed any yet assuming that Moraine is still alive. Someone described RJ's writing style as being escapism which is a perfect description of it, but I don't see how you have a great battle without anyone dying. The ending is what inspired RJ to write all these books. How could an epic battle with no deaths inspire so many books? I am fully prepared and willing to accept mass resurrections in the last chapter, I'll be ok with that as long as the battle is a battle and it feels real.
Shaggy made a good point about the wolves not being able to tell the "two legs" apart, and that got me thinking again. What if in the heat of the battle Perins wolf senses take over and Rand has to kill Perin?
I've already given two characters and the reason's why I think they'll die, Rand and Perin, I have one more.
It's been a longtime since I've read this series, so if my reasons are wrong please correct me. Warders go crazy when their Aes Sedai dies and that is why Lan was passed on to Nynaeve. Cadsuene is worried that Rand is too serious, to firm, to uncompromising, I forget the term used in the book, but she's worried that Rand will snap under pressure if he doesn't learn to laugh. Rand also has three warders in Avienda, Min, and Elayne that is a lot of warders. I think one maybe even two of them die. Avienda seems to me to be the best one to go "boots up" because she's a warrior who'll be in the thick of it. If I had to pick between the other two it would probably be Min because Elayne is pregnant, and I think that is important to the ending. Anyways after Avienda dies he snaps, maybe that's why he kills Perrin, and the remaining warders are needed to bring him back under control.
Someone thought that the Prologue in tEotW was foreshadowing of Tarmon Gaiden. I don't know, but I do know that their were a lot of dead bodies laying around there.
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Someone thought that the Prologue in tEotW was foreshadowing of Tarmon Gaiden. I don't know, but I do know that their were a lot of dead bodies laying around there.
The prologue was basically a history. Ishmael(?) met and spoke with Lews Therin in that scene, just before Lews Therin killed himself.
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That's a good point, publius. I never really thought about it, but those who have Warders (mostly Aes Sedai) are sorta twice as vulnerable (although I wouldn't call Warders (Lan in particular) vulnerable).
I also agree on the point that at least one of Rand's Warders must die. If you think about it, having three spouses for 40+years of life would just be weird. Who do you sleep with at night? Do you have a schedule for who sleeps with who? A schedule for sex? Does everyone sleep together (this would be strange)? And the children–first of all, there'd be a LOT of them. Secondly, they won't technically be siblings–they'll be half-siblings–but they'll all live together. They'll all share the same Dad, but have one Mom and two aunt/type/people and…it's just too confusing. I think RJ will kill at least one, if only for peace of mind. I hope it's Min.
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I also agree on the point that at least one of Rand's Warders must die.
Rand doesn't have any Warders. They bonded him as Warder.
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My point remains the same–it goes both ways.
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Well there are already the Aiel with multiple wives, so the idea wouldn't be that far fetched.
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I'm not sure, but I think three spouses is pretty rare (nonexistent?) in Aiel culture. And the two are very different societies. Much of Aiel society is based on fighting, and many Aiel are often not at home (at least in these turbulent times).
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I think it's more for the background info than anything. If RJ had all 4 of them together at the end without the Aiel, then it would seem weird. But by having the Aiel practicing polygamy the idea really shouldn't shock anyone. Some might not agree with it, but thems the breaks.
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For me, it's not that I don't agree with it–it's just hard for me to get my mine around. (Then again, I'm only 12. I didn't even know about polygamy since like five years ago and I've NEVER talked about it with anyone.)
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I also agree on the point that at least one of Rand's Warders must die. If you think about it, having three spouses for 40+years of life would just be weird. Who do you sleep with at night? Do you have a schedule for who sleeps with who? A schedule for sex? Does everyone sleep together (this would be strange)? And the children–first of all, there'd be a LOT of them. Secondly, they won't technically be siblings–they'll be half-siblings–but they'll all live together. They'll all share the same Dad, but have one Mom and two aunt/type/people and…it's just too confusing. I think RJ will kill at least one, if only for peace of mind. I hope it's Min.
I have some polygamous ancestors and what they did is have different houses for each wife and her children. The husband would just move to a different house every so often. Pretty much like Rand&co are doing now, so I don't think that will be a problem. If any of his wives get axed though, I'm voting for Elayne.
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Po0lygamy is actually standard practice in most religions, only Judaism and Christianity ban the practice. all the other major religions it is standard for a man to have multiple wives.
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After reading the WOT , I had gotten the feeling that RJ was a church going man where other authors I didn't get that feeling from their writing. After reading RJ's blog and seeing the pictures of his funeral, I believe him to be a religious man. That's why I doubt that there will be a polygamist ending because it would fly in the face of his beliefs.
True in some cultures polygamy is practiced, but polygamy in America is rare and at best taboo. Pretty much anyone who has dated has dated someone who has cheated on them. I think that some, especially the female readers, may find a polygamist ending to be a bitter pill to swallow. In today where political correctness and hyper-sensitivity runs wild, I think that ending very well could be seen as RJ endorsing polygamy. Which could cause some readers to turn away from RJ and not buy anymore of his books.
When RJ was telling the ending in his living room to family and friends shortly before his passing. I don't see him ending with Rand, Min, Avienda, and Elayne all getting married and living happily ever after, I don't see Harriet standing and clapping her hands. It would also go against the overall theme of the women in the book that of the strong independant female. Lan could have three wives and get away with it, but not Rand.
The little that I know of RJ tells me that the overall character of the man would not let him write that ending.
Lews Therin talks to Rand, but I believe if my memory is correct, there is a third unknown voice also. Assuming that all three girls are former wives, perhaps somehow Rand gets split in three? This is the only way that I can see it working. The unknown voice would go with Avienda, Lews would go with Elayne (her name is to close to Lews wives name to ignore), and Min would go with Rand.
If you really want a happy ending then lets say that people die, and Rand gets split. Instead of all the people fighting in the same age, Tarmen Guiden is fought in all ages. So Lews would go back to the Prologue and get a chance to save his wife who'd be Elayne, at the same time that Rand fights to save Min, and the unknown voice would fight in the Wastes and saves his wife who'd be Avienda. After the battle mass resurrections ensue. What would Mat, Perin, and everyone else have to do with everything? I don't know....perhaps their just there for the pre-battle before Rand splits.
That's the only scenario that I can think of where Rand and all his wives live.
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My point remains the same–it goes both ways.
Wrong, when an Aes Sedai's warder is killed she goes through an extremely heavy period of mourning, however does not go on a killing spree/vengance hunt. Now it is unclear if this is due to the way the bond works or if its more likely the ways that men and woman are different in their grief. The books are not clear on this, however, I suspect the latter is the case.
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Here is a theory. Rand dies defeating the DO, restarting the Karaethon Cycle with Avienda being the "maiden wed to no man" who births the next incarnation of the Dragon.
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To go back a few posts, the main purpose for the wolves at the last battle was shown in book 10 during Perrin's boring section. They are there to counter Dark Hounds. Remember, everything is about balance. For everything the Shadow has, there are counter-parts for the Light. Remember, wolves hate the Shadow Brothers worse than Trollocs or Fades (as Dark Hounds were once wolves themselves).
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It would seem I'm late to a WoT discussion! :O
Lews Therin talks to Rand, but I believe if my memory is correct, there is a third unknown voice also.
*--Spoilers
There is no third VOICE, however, rand keeps seeing a face when he seizes saidin. The face is Moridin, from the time their balefires crossed at Shadar logoth. I don't know if this is because of balefires crossing, or because of streams of the one power and the true power crossing.
*/--Spoilers
Personally, I'm certain AT LEAST Rand will die. This has been stated many times that he "must" dies at tarmon gaidon. However, I'm sure he will live on, somehow, as a major portion of the books involves him trying to follow as best he can the advice given to him from the Aelfinn when he asked how he could live past Tarmon Gaidon. It's not that I don't think all his work could be in vain, just that I would be very surprised if it was, as it was a very large portion of his story as a whole.
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I have always felt that Rand's question to the snakes was answered literally, but they were talking to both Lews Therin and Rand. When I combine that with the vision of Logain stepping over Rand with a paper face (I believe that is what it said), it leads me to believe that Lews Therin will take over control and be defeated, but Rand's soul will survive. Anyway, any combination of these endings will work for me. He dies, he lives, he kinda dies, it will all be cool. I am much more interested in learning about Verin and Cadsuane's true nature ( I have my theories of course), when Moridin and Cyndane will reveal themselves, where Demondred has been hiding, etc.
On another note, how can RJ condoning polygamy be more averse to his religious beliefs than one man having sex with three different women he is not married to? Since he has already "condoned" polygamy with the Aiel, it shouldn't be a big deal to have Rand (who is an Aiel, by the way) engage in a similar practice. They are already bonded to him, the marriage is just a formality.
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I am much more interested in learning about Verin and Cadsuane's true nature ( I have my theories of course), when Moridin and Cyndane will reveal themselves, where Demondred has been hiding, etc.
Personally, I think Verin is either Black Ajah, or some other side we don't know about yet. (I kinda doubt BA, but it's still a possibility)
I'm pretty certain Cadsuane is merely trying to help the world with the least amount of collateral damage
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The Aelfinn said "to live you must die" which is obviously a paradox. I think Nicola Treehill had a Foretelling about 'the world not yet done with battle' and Elayne Min and Aviendah standing on a boat while 'the guardians balance the servants' so I don't think any of those three will die.
I suspect Robert Jordan intended to follow through with the Christ allusions, and Rand will die and come back to life in order to defeat the Dark One.
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where Demondred has been hiding, etc.
**SPOILERS**
Demandred is Mazrim Taim.
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IngtarWasFramed– I never said they go on a killing spree. However, the shock could incapacitate them for a time, and don't they feel each other's wounds or something?
Reaves– I thought that, too, at one point, but a completely analytical discussion on some board convinced me otherwise.
Why do you want Elayne to die? I want Min to die 8).
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where Demondred has been hiding, etc.
**SPOILERS**
Demandred is Mazrim Taim.
**UNSPOILERS**
Taim is not Demandred in disguise.
How do we know? Because RJ said so.
Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."
A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."
[Matthew Julius, post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2003]
--Stolen from a WoT FAQ.
As well as other evidence against it.
--Demandred's failure to recognize Flinn at the Cleansing
--the double set of orders to the renegade Asha'man
etc.
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Yeah. There's a bunch of other evidence out there, too.
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Happyman,
I think the notions about Perrin discovering the song and Lan bringing back the Malkiar (sp) are more born of specific forshadowing from the books. Either Min viewings, or Egwene/Perrin dreams have hinted at these things happening.
I realize this, although the details are very vague at this point (it's been a while since I've read the books). However, the deep philosophical objections strongly suggest to me that the interpretation will turn out to be tricky. The Wheel turns forwards, not backwards, so if they find something or establish a country, I expect it to be something new, not echoes of something which is old but still in human memory.
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**SPOILERS**
Demandred is Mazrim Taim.
**UNSPOILERS**
Taim is not Demandred in disguise.
How do we know? Because RJ said so.
Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."
A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."
[Matthew Julius, post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2003]
--Stolen from a WoT FAQ.
As well as other evidence against it.
--Demandred's failure to recognize Flinn at the Cleansing
--the double set of orders to the renegade Asha'man
etc.
:o I was so certain...curses. And that was one thing I thought I had figured out...poo.
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But Taim probably takes orders from Moridin/Ishamael suggested by his use of the colors of red and black.
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But Taim probably takes orders from Moridin/Ishamael suggested by his use of the colors of red and black.
That is quite possible. There's actually a theory i read floating around about Taim being taught by Ishy. Afterall, he does seem rather well informed about channeling....I don't mean just like he's a pro from doing it for so long, I mean he all ready knows the proper names for things before he should sometimes.
Though, I'm on the fence about Taim being a darkfriend or just a selfish jerk. He could be either, but i lean towards DF, because of his last words in the last book...
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On another note, how can RJ condoning polygamy be more averse to his religious beliefs than one man having sex with three different women he is not married to? Since he has already "condoned" polygamy with the Aiel, it shouldn't be a big deal to have Rand (who is an Aiel, by the way) engage in a similar practice. They are already bonded to him, the marriage is just a formality.
You very well could be right, I don't know. Personally I would have a hard time with that ending because it just doesn't feel right to me. Remember the difference between sleeping with three unwed women and polygamy is that one is celebrated by popular culture and the other is illegal. My basic argument is that there is a difference between having a race of secondary characters acting a certain way and having the series ending in a four way marriage. Could it end that way? Yes, I suppose but I don't think it will. I still think that Rand may live, but he will still be gone from the world. He'll become some kind of higher being.
I had thought for a second that perhaps Rand would be reborn as Elaynes baby. That thought only lasted for a second though because it got real weird the more I thought about it. Rand would be his own father and his wife would also be his mother who he would've slept with. No, I'm pretty positive that won't be in the final plots!
There is no third VOICE, however, rand keeps seeing a face when he seizes saidin. The face is Moridin, from the time their balefires crossed at Shadar logoth. I don't know if this is because of balefires crossing, or because of streams of the one power and the true power crossing.
Refresh my memory, what is the difference between the one power and the true power?
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Refresh my memory, what is the difference between the one power and the true power?
One power = Saidin and Saidar (what aes sedai and ashaman use)
True power = Is much more powerful, and granted by the Dark one. Ishy/Moridin uses it exclusively, and currently is the only one that uses it. It also drives you insane very quick. Channelers of the OP can't detect use of the True power.
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One power = Saidin and Saidar (what aes sedai and ashaman use)
True power = Is much more powerful, and granted by the Dark one. Ishy/Moridin uses it exclusively, and currently is the only one that uses it. It also drives you insane very quick. Channelers of the OP can't detect use of the True power.
Would I be right in assuming that the One Power would be the opposite to the True Power? Or is the True Power just the One Power with an added kick, or don't we know yet? Maybe Rand has to combine Saidin and Saidar, so he can defeat the Dark One? There is also that soup bowl thing that I vaguely remember that I think combines Saidin and Saidar that must play an important role.
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I always assumed that the True Power was essentially both sides of the One Power combined. Although I don't really understand why it would make you insane faster but thats beside the point.
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One power = Saidin and Saidar (what aes sedai and ashaman use)
True power = Is much more powerful, and granted by the Dark one. Ishy/Moridin uses it exclusively, and currently is the only one that uses it. It also drives you insane very quick. Channelers of the OP can't detect use of the True power.
Would I be right in assuming that the One Power would be the opposite to the True Power? Or is the True Power just the One Power with an added kick, or don't we know yet? Maybe Rand has to combine Saidin and Saidar, so he can defeat the Dark One? There is also that soup bowl thing that I vaguely remember that I think combines Saidin and Saidar that must play an important role.
Well, not a whole lot has been explained about it, other than its granted directly from the dark one. I hope there's more explanation on it in the next book, personally. The bowl you speak of was the bowl of the winds, which did, indeed, combine both saidin and saidar to alter the weather patterns (and end the DO's heat wave in winter). I would assume there would be other Ter'angreal that combine the two as well, but i don't know.
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I believe the "True" power is the opposite of the one power. It does have the advantage of the user being able to see the weaves of both halves of the One power, but it is corrupting, and very destructive. It was used to create Trollocs, with the Myrrdraahl as a side effect (The Gholam is the ultimate achievement in True Power based genetics; I can't wait to see who is controlling that thing). When Moridin Travels, he is described as "tearing a hole in the pattern". Even the other Chosen are dubius about using it because of the cost. There is a way for it to be sensed with the One Power, but I don't know how. Finally, Shai'Tan limits who can use it. If it was so powerful, I imagine he wouldn't be so stingy with allowing its usage.
by the way, I had to laugh at the UNSPOILERS comment when the Taim = Demondred comment was debunked. Very nice. I have my own Spoiler - Miss Scarlet killed Asmodean, in the pantry, with a candlestick. :D
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I have my own Spoiler - Miss Scarlet killed Asmodean, in the pantry, with a candlestick. :D
I *KNEW* IT! That cursed wench!!
(also, dibs on colonel mustard.)
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Miss Scarlet killed Asmodean, in the pantry, with a candlestick. :D
lol... Everything makes sense to me now!
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I am in a re-read right now but thought I would pose a question to you all now. Why has the Dark One been so nice to Ishmael? He failed to convert Rand or kill him and in the process he is killed. But the Dark One brings him back and makes him the master-pimp of the Foresaken and granting him access to the True Power. How does that work? After all another foresaken that failed, Bethemal (sp), came back as a woman as part of a punishment.
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I am in a re-read right now but thought I would pose a question to you all now. Why has the Dark One been so nice to Ishmael? He failed to convert Rand or kill him and in the process he is killed. But the Dark One brings him back and makes him the master-pimp of the Foresaken and granting him access to the True Power. How does that work? After all another foresaken that failed, Bethemal (sp), came back as a woman as part of a punishment.
I think it's because the rest of the forsaken plan, plot, and scheme against one another, while ishy always stays on track goes for the overall victory first. Plus he's quite mad, which i'm sure is a bonus, in the eyes of the DO.
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Also, Ishamael has done a great deal to further the Dark One's cause and disrupt his foes over the past 3000 years. He was affected by the seals considerably less than the rest of the Forsaken and was able to actually go out into the world periodically, and he managed to accomplish quite a bit each time, always in ways that clearly benefited the Dark One. He has an established track record of concentrating on the Dark One's agenda rather than his own selfish greed, and being very effective at it too.
Among other things, I seem to recall Ishamael boasting about being a top adviser of Artur Hawkwing and turning him against the White Tower and all Aes Sedai.
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Another reason for Ishy's high status (which kind of agrees with what everyone else has been saying) he never really tries to Kill Rand in direct combat and specifically he even helps Rand after the command was issued in the beginning of book 6.
Also note, Rand is the "fisher king" played in the Game that Moridin is playing in book 8 (I think). Part of the strategy of that game is to manipulate the fisher king's movements. I believe the DO NEEDS Rand at the last battle, even if he is fighting against the shadow, after all if there is no Last Battle, then how can he win and escape and break the wheel? (I believe the one Black Ajah of the 5 Aes Sedai loyal to Rand (per Min's vision) used similar logic for her reasons to support Rand)
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(I believe the one Black Ajah of the 5 Aes Sedai loyal to Rand (per Min's vision) used similar logic for her reasons to support Rand)
Elza.
Yes, she does use similar logic, HOWEVER, that logic was put in her mind by Verin using compulsion on her (it's implied in winter's heart i believe when we see her POV.)
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(I believe the one Black Ajah of the 5 Aes Sedai loyal to Rand (per Min's vision) used similar logic for her reasons to support Rand)
Elza.
Yes, she does use similar logic, HOWEVER, that logic was put in her mind by Verin using compulsion on her (it's implied in winter's heart i believe when we see her POV.)
Hmmm....Are you sure it was Verin? I remember Verin doing some shady things with those five but I thought Elza was one of the ones whom immediately swore for Rand without the aide of Verin.
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(I believe the one Black Ajah of the 5 Aes Sedai loyal to Rand (per Min's vision) used similar logic for her reasons to support Rand)
Elza.
Yes, she does use similar logic, HOWEVER, that logic was put in her mind by Verin using compulsion on her (it's implied in winter's heart i believe when we see her POV.)
Hmmm....Are you sure it was Verin? I remember Verin doing some shady things with those five but I thought Elza was one of the ones whom immediately swore for Rand without the aide of Verin.
Well, just to be sure, i just checked on a WoT FAQ:
--Elza Penfell is one of the Aes Sedai taken prisoner by the Asha'man at Dumai's Wells. (LoC,Ch55)
--Elza is held prisoner by the Asha'man. (ACoS,Ch1)
--Beldeine, Elza, Erian, Nesune and Sarene beg to be allowed to swear fealty to Rand. (TPoD,Ch29)
Almost two full books elapsed before she swore fealty to rand.
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Miss Scarlet killed Asmodean, in the pantry, with a candlestick.
What is this, 'Clue?'
I'm not so sure about the relationship of the One Power and the True Power. Saidin/Saidar come from the Wheel, right? And the True Power comes from the Dark One. Someone also said below that the True Power makes you go insane faster—but I don't know if they're connected. Even the most Saidin-driven whackjobs we've met haven't had the saa–you can't forget the saa.
OK. Just want to put this thought out there. So we have the Wheel, from which comes the One Power (Saidin and Saidar). We have the bad dude, the Dark One, from whom comes the True Power. But where's the Light dude? And even if there isn't one, or not yet (Rand?), couldn't there be a Light power? Everyone is always referring to the 'Light' like it's all the good in the world–but what if it's more than that? What if it is an unknown, untapped resource? Just a thought….
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I was kind of thinking along the same lines that if the One Power was the equal opposite of the True Power, then that would explain why the Dragon always lost to the Dark One. He always fought with half the One Power while the Dark One fought with both sides of the True Power. Basically he always took a knife to a gunfight. In aMoL we'd have to find out how the One Power was split in half or why the True Power did not if this is the case.
The Dark One's touch would be the True Power right? What is the Dark One, do we know? Does he have a body or is he a spirit?
The more I discuss about this book on this forum the more convinced that this book is going to be awesome! I can't wait to do my re-read; however, I'm not going to start it until I know when the final book will be published. I'm hoping to be on book 7 or 8 when I buy the final volume.
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Yeah, I always like to reread the series, before reading the next installment, too. Unfortunately, that takes a rather long time with RJ's books ;D
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OK. Just want to put this thought out there. So we have the Wheel, from which comes the One Power (Saidin and Saidar). We have the bad dude, the Dark One, from whom comes the True Power. But where's the Light dude? And even if there isn't one, or not yet (Rand?), couldn't there be a Light power? Everyone is always referring to the 'Light' like it's all the good in the world–but what if it's more than that? What if it is an unknown, untapped resource? Just a thought….
Man, its been so long since I've read Eye of the World. But that kinda sounds like what you're talking about: the eye of the world, the purified power there. I forget how exactly it was worded, if Moiraine actually said it was purified saidin or not. Maybe that could be a foretaste of what Rand uses at the last battle.
Now that I think about it, if the Eye was actually purified saidin you'd think Rand would have at least had some kind of recognition between the cleansed saidin and the power he used at the Eye.
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I'm rather new here, and I'll admit to not having read the last two pages of this thread, but I have a question that I doubt has been raised and which I think is extremely relevant to predicting the story's end.
Has anyone compiled a complete list of the foreshadowing's/prophecies/viewings dealing with Rand's death, the Last Battle, and the other major characters? Such a list would be incredibly useful for predicting what's going to happen. For example I've noticed a lot of people doubting whether rand will actually die, rather than die in a metaphorical sense. It seems to me that these people forget Min's viewing early in the series of three women standing of Rand on a funeral bier (herself one of them if memory serves). A complete list of these foreshadowings etc.. might prevent such misunderstandings (or even prove me wrong if there's something I'm forgetting).
Anyway, if no one's done that yet I might well start on it. I've been hankering to re-read the series in its entirety, and it seems like I might as well get some practical use out of it.
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I don't think that anyone has compiled such a list before. I think that would be fun to read and theorize about. If I may make a suggestion how to go about it. If I was compiling such a list I would start by getting a highlighter and whenever I came across a prophecy I'd highlight it and take not of book, page paragraph. That way it wouldn't disrupt my reading as much. That way when I would post I could give a brief description of the prophecy, give reference , and my opinion of what it said. I think that would be the most enjoyable way of doing it instead of typing out every prophecy verbatim. This is just a suggestion, you do it anyway you want to. I like the idea.
If you go back a few pages you can read about our thoughts on who's going to die and who's not. I personally have predicted that Rand, Perrin, and Avienda and perhaps even Min will die. I also explained why I thought Rand wouldn't live to marry Min, Elayne, and Avienda; however, that was made by using admittedly shallow information, and a few people called me on it. I still stand by those predictions even though I admit that I could see mass resurrections in the last chapter.
Let's change gears now. I was thinking of the last battle and noticed that everyone seems to fit into a particular battle in the end. Rand will fight the dark one. Perrin and the wolves will fight the dark friends. Egwene and the Aes Sedai will battle the Black Ajah, and so on, and so on. Where does Mat fit in? He kind of seems out of place to me. What does the signet ring and the medallion mean? We know the nine moons means Tuon, but what does the fox chasing two ravens mean? What's the medallion supposed to be meant for. I know what the medallion does, but what is it meant for?
Mat seems to be the wild card in all this. He's always late to the party in this series. Rand found out he was the Dragon Reborn, Perrin found out about his wolve senses long before Mat discovered his luck. Likewise, Rand found all his women, Perrin found Faile long before Mat found Tuon. So I wonder where Mat fits in any ideas?
What's the significance between Perrin choosing between the Hammer and the Ax? If you hit someone in the face with either on of those and neither is a pretty sight. Prophecy said that bad things happened if he picked the ax, but is there any significance to the hammer that we know of?
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The fox chasing two ravens... I think the fox would represent Mat, something to do with the Aelfinn or whatever they're called. The two ravens could be both the Seanchan and the Dark One. So Mat is chasing the Seanchan(Tuon) and hunting the Dark One(or anyone associated with him) or something like that.
As for Perrin's hammer and axe I think choosing the axe would have meant he enjoyed killing and that would cause his destruction. But by choosing the hammer he was saying that he didn't like violence and he was only fighting when he was needed.
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As far as a listing of all fortellings go:
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/prophecies/index.html
I think the choice between hammer and axe is mostly symbollic as, obviously, both can cause alot of pain/death. It's just that the hammer has constructive purposes as well, like forging (he is a blacksmith, afterall) and the axe has its main purpose as killing, since im pretty sure it was made as a weapon, not like a woodcutter's axe.
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Eerongal–you are correct in saying it was forged as a weapon.
I think the majority of us think Rand will die. So the question becomes, will he come back? Or will he be resurrected as some kind of higher entity? Maybe he will take the Dark One's place but make himself the Light One or something with a much cooler title or something….that'd be neat.
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"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."
Well it's safe to say if Moridin dies then Rand lives. Or if Rand dies Moridin lives, he's got 50% chance to live :D
Just found this one, ty vm for the link to the prophecies
"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"
"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die.
So if he dies he lives, bodyswap anyone?
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If you would live, you must die.
How's this for a theory? Lews Therin has been trying to wrestle control of Rand every time he tries to touch the One Power right? When Rand is battling the DO, Lews Therin takes control of Rand and he loses killing Rand. That's when Mat blows the Great Horn, and brings Rand and everyone else back from the Age of Legends. Rand then battles the DO and defeats him. I think maybe the only way that Rand can win is if he dies first...
I have more thoughts on that, but I'd like to think about it a little more. Does that sound like something that could happen?
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actually it kinda does. Its not a ridiculous theory at least.
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Where does Mat fit in? He kind of seems out of place to me. What does the signet ring and the medallion mean? We know the nine moons means Tuon, but what does the fox chasing two ravens mean? What's the medallion supposed to be meant for. I know what the medallion does, but what is it meant for?
Mat seems to be the wild card in all this. He's always late to the party in this series. Rand found out he was the Dragon Reborn, Perrin found out about his wolve senses long before Mat discovered his luck. Likewise, Rand found all his women, Perrin found Faile long before Mat found Tuon. So I wonder where Mat fits in any ideas?
Don't forget Mat blew the Horn of Valere in book 2 and no one else can use it unless he dies. The signet ring was something he picked by chance, which showed a fox chasing ravens (symbol of Seanchean) surrounded by nine moons. Tuon's damane had a Foretelling that she would marry 'the fox that makes the ravens fly.'
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Also, now that Mat is Prince of the Ravens, he will probably have some leverage to get the Seanchan to fight on Rand's side in the Last Battle.
Publius, I agree that is definitely something that could happen.
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Every time Rand touches the One Power he sees Moridan's face.I looked for all these quotes but couldn't find them. Someone else said that for Rand to live Moridan had to die, and for Moridan to live Rand had to die. RJ has established that the Dragon and Dark One have battled many times throughout history and he's won every time. Could Moridan represent the only time that the Dragon changed sides? That could explain why the DO seems to favor him, right?
Is Mat still the only one who can blow the Horn of Valere? He did die for a while... I also think that Mat's incredible luck was written mainly for the ending. I think that something very unlikely will happen in the end, but we'll except it because if happened to Mat. Like the coin that landed on its side only what happens will be bigger...
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If you would live, you must die.
How's this for a theory? Lews Therin has been trying to wrestle control of Rand every time he tries to touch the One Power right? When Rand is battling the DO, Lews Therin takes control of Rand and he loses killing Rand. That's when Mat blows the Great Horn, and brings Rand and everyone else back from the Age of Legends. Rand then battles the DO and defeats him. I think maybe the only way that Rand can win is if he dies first...
I have more thoughts on that, but I'd like to think about it a little more. Does that sound like something that could happen?
Look into the bodyswap theory. It makes pretty good sense. And it's not theory, it is true. That whole thing was a prophecy.
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Also, Mat has a pretty decent number of men behind him. I haven't read the series in a while, but wasn't the Band of the Red Hand at like 35,000 men? That's a pretty good number. And as shown in the books, he has those amazing crossbows that just destroy everyone. Those could be pretty useful in the last battle.
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Also, Mat has a pretty decent number of men behind him. I haven't read the series in a while, but wasn't the Band of the Red Hand at like 35,000 men? That's a pretty good number. And as shown in the books, he has those amazing crossbows that just destroy everyone. Those could be pretty useful in the last battle.
Not to mention cannons. Never forget the cannons.
I know he doesn't have cannons yet. He will though. All the pieces are in place, and there are foretellings about it.
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Really? Which ones?
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I don't remember any prophecies, but Aludra (former Illuminator) promises to make cannons for him in Knife of Dreams. (What do you get if you cross fireworks with a bell?) Should be exciting ;D
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for some reason I thought he already had cannons...I guess not :(
Its been too long since I've read anything WOT.
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Me, too. I completely forgot about Aludra.
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Aludra has given him grenades, but at the end of KOD he has promised Aludra to bring her to Rand for him to ok commissioning of cannons from multiple nation bellfounders to make cannons
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And re the cannon foretelling, iirc Egwene had a dream of Mat bowling and knocking down pins that stood for hundreds of soldiers each.
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And re the cannon foretelling, iirc Egwene had a dream of Mat bowling and knocking down pins that stood for hundreds of soldiers each.
You recall correctly, sir. She did, indeed have a dream just like that.
From that link I posted earlier:
--Mat bowls on a village green. He knocks over pins again and again, only the pins are men and they are dead. Each pin represents thousands of men and an Illuminator was part of it
I believe that's the only fortelling that hints at the cannons, but i could be wrong.
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I don't know if this will play into the ending, but in one book Rand wanted to leave something behind after he died He set up some kind of workshop that was in the process of developing steam engines. I don't think that will play into the final book too much, if at all, but who knows?
Maybe that's how they'll move the cannons around.
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I don't know if this will play into the ending, but in one book Rand wanted to leave something behind after he died He set up some kind of workshop that was in the process of developing steam engines. I don't think that will play into the final book too much, if at all, but who knows?
Maybe that's how they'll move the cannons around.
honestly, I always guessed that it was a setup for the next age to start, the next age being some kind of technological revolution. That was my guess about it, anyways. It also fits with gunpowder now being in use (Mat's cannons), though I can certainly see setting them up on steam engines, mat will basically have low-tech tanks.
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Look into the bodyswap theory
Body swap with who Moridan? I guess I don't remember reading that part. Are we in agreement then that Rand and Moridan may both be related somehow?
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Look into the bodyswap theory
Body swap with who Moridan? I guess I don't remember reading that part. Are we in agreement then that Rand and Moridan may both be related somehow?
I'd have to disagree. Moridan is Ishy, and Rand is Lews Therin. Lews Therin fought and met Ishy in the war of the Power. So their souls have been separate the entire time. Lews Therin died and Ishy was, if not trapped, then at least tied to the Dark Ones prison. No, I don't think they are related, unless you mean symbolically.
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The steam-engine could also be like a car for the Channelers so they could go on back, it would run by enemies fast, and they would wreck. Kind of like a drive-by shooting.
I'm sorry, I haven't read the books in so long, but will somebody please take pity on a confused soul and explain what Moridin and Rand's connection is?
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They each shot a stream of balefire in Shadar Logoth, and "the streams crossed." (Sound familiar :P) Since then, visions of Moridin's face have been popping up in Rand's head every time he uses the Power. No one is sure if it is because the streams crossed or because Moridin was using the Dark One's version of the Power.
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And after they do the balefire thing Moridin refuses to channel Saidin. So they are linked, I'm pretty sure it's been strongly established in other forums
No one is sure if it is because the streams crossed or because Moridin was using the Dark One's version of the Power.
I think it was Saidin, hence the refusal to channel it rather than the True Power
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I thought it was that the True Power was more addictive while it also drives the user insane. That was why Ishy/Moridin only uses it.
Here's something that I noticed in the last book: Rand has the spots floating across his vision after he loses his hand. (I think its called Saa?) They were like little black flecks. And the sun was unusually bright and hurt his eyes. But only after his fight with Lews Therin for the Power.
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And after they do the balefire thing Moridin refuses to channel Saidin. So they are linked, I'm pretty sure it's been strongly established in other forums
No one is sure if it is because the streams crossed or because Moridin was using the Dark One's version of the Power.
I think it was Saidin, hence the refusal to channel it rather than the True Power
really? I thought in the book it showed Rand seeing black flecks crossing his eyes? Again, its been a while. I could be and probably am wrong.
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I thought it was that the True Power was more addictive while it also drives the user insane. That was why Ishy/Moridin only uses it.
Here's something that I noticed in the last book: Rand has the spots floating across his vision after he loses his hand. (I think its called Saa?) They were like little black flecks. And the sun was unusually bright and hurt his eyes. But only after his fight with Lews Therin for the Power.
I kind of remember that, I have another theory. I could be completely wrong, so if this doesn't fit let me know. Rand cleansed Saidan, so it should be like drinking a glass of crystal clear Ice Mountain water after drinking Mississippi mud water your whole life, right? In other words your not going to mistaken one for the other. So maybe after their balefire streams crossed maybe Rand isn't channeling the one power anymore, maybe he's touching the True Power. If, and I don't know if this is the case, but if their streams crossed at the end of Winters Heart, then maybe all the male channelers are touching the True Power also. That could explain why all the Ashamen were walking around saying, "Somethings different", in Crossroads to Twilight, as opposed to realizing they were "drinking clean water" .
What do you think, possibility, or back to the drawing board?
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I've always taken it that the True Power was both Saidin and Saidar. Maybe in the process of the cleansing he made it so Saidar now trickles into Saidin, which would also explain Saidar's "weakening." Too bad I loaned my complete WoT collection to a friend or I'd already know about the Saa in his eyes. One other thing is that the Saa only come after channeling the One Power ALOT. I forget what Forsaken says it, but I know one does.
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Not the One Power, but the Dark One's power. Rand sees black flecks and is hurt by bright lights because he took a fireball to the hand and the heat seared his corneas. The same thing can happen to you if you look directly at an arc welder or a large sustained electrical discharge. You literally get sunburned eyes. It is very painful and can lead to blindness. Basically, Rand is falling apart at the seams.
As for why Moridin will no longer channel Saidin, It would make sense that he sees Rand's (and probably Lews Therin's) face every time he holds the source, so he avoids it completely.
Lastly, the books very specifically state that the Dark One controls who channels his power, and I highly doubt he would allow every male channeler to use it all of a sudden. More importantly, someone holding the Evil Power can see both Saidar and Saidin.
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I think people tend to make things far too complicated sometimes.
It seems most likely that there are two powers in the world: The Dark Ones power (called the True Power by the Forsaken) and the Creator's Power (called the One Power by everybody.) Because the Dark One is the opposite of the creator, his power is the power of destruction, which makes it both extremely addictive (destruction is addictive, after all, even in the real world) and singular (destruction does not need help if you are powerful enough). Because it is the power of the Dark One, he gives it to only those whom he chooses, which is those who will forward his desires. Because most of the creatures in the world have nothing to do with the Dark One, most cannot sense it's use.
The True Power, on the other hand, is the power of creation. It is much more subtle than the True Power, just as creation is more subtle than destruction. It is divided into two parts which both fight and cooperate, and which correspond to male and female. The tension between the two, as well as their cooperation, create the future, just as the merging of male and female creates the future. Just like the True Power, it is only given away at the Creator's discretion. However, as creator he has left the world's future in the hands of his creations, and thus made it generally available based on genetics rather than behavior.
Rand cannot access the true power, and does not have the Saa. That idea is based off of a very stretched reading of a phenomenon that can easily be explained by other causes.
The link between Rand and Moridin, however, is clearly real and an unknown at this point.
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which would also explain Saidar's "weakening."
As I recall, that was specific to things that prevent decay, keep out rodents, etc. I took it as another sign of the Dark One touching the world more strongly, as the Dark One has been causing food to spontaneously go bad all over the world, rats and such are among his common spies, and everything else mentioned fit thematically as well. Saidar is as strong as ever, but those applications of it are now having to hold off the Dark One's influence in addition to natural causes.
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Rand dies, IMO, because the saying was "To live you must die." I take that to mean if the Dark One wins, he will destroy the Wheel, and if Rand dies in an attempt to beat the Dark One (and wins) he will have the opertunity to be woven back into the thread again in the future.
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destruction is addictive, after all, even in the real world
happyman I feel I must direct you to one of the threads that I and little_wilson have frequented. I believe it is Nostalgia Alert!!!! There is quite a bit of discussion on the topic of addiction….
if the Dark One wins, he will destroy the Wheel
maxonennis, have you read the entire thread? Because I believe we've talked about the possibility of the destruction of the Wheel and what that would entail quite extensively….
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As per several PoV's from Aes Sedia/female channelers we know that there is something strange going on with Saidar from the time Rand cleansed Saidin and on. As for the DO's power being addictive, so is Saidar/Saidin. In the white tower they first train you not to be constantly drawing from it. It's addictive and if you draw too much you'll burn yourself out.
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What I was thinking was that when Moridan was channeling balefire, he was using the True Power, and Rand was channeling the One Power when his balfire crossed streams with Moridan. I was thinking that perhaps because balefire was forbidden that maybe that never happened before and that Saidan got mixed with the True Power. That's why I was suggesting that the Rand and the Ashamen were unknowingly touching the True Power. That is assuming that the One Power and the True Power are opposite powers. Does that make more sense, or am I still wrong...
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We're pretty sure Moridin was channeling Saidin, hence him saying he won't channel Saidin anymore. I still don't think the One Power and the True power are "opposites," the only difference i see is the DO chooses who gets to use the True Power and both men and women can use it. It was obviously part of the seal on his prison, from the PoV in Shadow's Rising.
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As per several PoV's from Aes Sedia/female channelers we know that there is something strange going on with Saidar from the time Rand cleansed Saidin and on.
The strangeness is caused by the massive amounts of saidar and saidin being used by the Bowl of the Winds. There is more of a problem the closer to the spot it was used and little to no problem when not close.
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As per several PoV's from Aes Sedia/female channelers we know that there is something strange going on with Saidar from the time Rand cleansed Saidin and on.
The strangeness is caused by the massive amounts of saidar and saidin being used by the Bowl of the Winds. There is more of a problem the closer to the spot it was used and little to no problem when not close.
Maybe you were referring to the 'failing' of saidar instead - wards to keep rats out of the White Tower and saidar Keepings to keep food fresh aren't working, because the Dark One is going to break out soon. Similarly, flies and weevils are proliferating - remember in book 11 Perrin goes to So Habor and they have a massive warehouse full of rotten grain.
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Hmm. I'll have to read the later books again, for some reason that idea is engrained in my head :S
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But is the One Power a power that comes from the Creator? I thought it comes from the wheel….
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But is the One Power a power that comes from the Creator? I thought it comes from the wheel….
My understanding is that the One Power was created by the Creator to turn the wheel. It is not the Creator’s power; it is just one of the Creator’s creations much like the wheel and pattern are.
Therefore, it makes sense that the Dark One is increasingly able to affect the world as we draw closer to the Last Battle. We’ve seen some of the Dark One’s attempts to affect the world through the long summers and winters, and now we’re seeing it by the ‘weakening’ of Saidar.
Of course most of the people I know seem to dismiss my idea as stupid. :D
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Your idea is not stupid. We just think you are looking at it the wrong way. As the DO touches the world more directly, his affect on the world also increases. Because of this, the normal wards are less and less effective. So, it is not that Saidar/Saidin is weakening, but that the forces of destruction are getting stronger. There is evidence of channelers having difficulty using the power in areas where extreme amounts of the power have been used (Bowl of Winds and the Cleansing). That still doesn't mean the powers are weakening. It's like using 100 lbs of force to lift 100 lbs, and then someone adds another 1oo lbs to it. You are using the same amount of force, but it is no longer enough to get the job done.
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Is it because of the Bowl of the Winds or because Elayne did that whole unweaving the gateway thing that channelers have difficulty in that part of the world?
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Your idea is not stupid. We just think you are looking at it the wrong way. As the DO touches the world more directly, his affect on the world also increases. Because of this, the normal wards are less and less effective. So, it is not that Saidar/Saidin is weakening, but that the forces of destruction are getting stronger. There is evidence of channelers having difficulty using the power in areas where extreme amounts of the power have been used (Bowl of Winds and the Cleansing). That still doesn't mean the powers are weakening. It's like using 100 lbs of force to lift 100 lbs, and then someone adds another 1oo lbs to it. You are using the same amount of force, but it is no longer enough to get the job done.
I think this explanation hit the nail on the head. If you go flip through the first books, you will see this happening--though, Jordan's touch is subtle. To be honest, I can't remember any examples right off the top of my head as it's been a while since I read them, but I do remember seeing it when I read the first four books a second time.
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That may have had an impact, as well. The only reason I didn't put it in is that Saidin probably wouldn't have been affected by the explosion, although we don't know for sure.
There are several examples of the DO's power increasing. reality itself is unraveling, people are spontaneously erupting into a swarm of beetles. Ghosts are appearing all over the place. It's becoming quite a mess. It would only make sense that more powerful wards, and even combined Saidar/Saidin weaves will be necessary to counter the chaos now.
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I don't think Elayne's explosion had much to do with anything. The way I think of it is that most of the thing's that happen with Saidar/Saidin/True Power can occur on two levels: the level of the material world, where only material things are affected, and the 'higher' world, where the Powers/Higher Beings are affected (or both, I suppose). I think Elayne's explosion was only on the material plane.
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We're pretty sure Moridin was channeling Saidin, hence him saying he won't channel Saidin anymore. I still don't think the One Power and the True power are "opposites," the only difference i see is the DO chooses who gets to use the True Power and both men and women can use it. It was obviously part of the seal on his prison, from the PoV in Shadow's Rising.
So what is the True Power? If it's not something different, or the One Powers opposite then what is it?
I was thinking for a while that maybe it was the third wheel of the one power. Saidar, Saidan, and the True Power, but that wouldn't work for a number of reasons, the main reason being the DO would never have won because he would've battled with 1/3 of the power while the good guys had 2/3.
It also couldn't be JUST saidar and saidan combined because the DO decides who can use the True Power. That implies ownership, and we know he has no control who can touch the One Power and who can't.
That leaves me with this thought, that the Dark One is the bridge between saidar and saidan. So when he allows someone to touch the True Power their actually channeling through the DO. That would explain why they go mad faster channeling the True Power.
Before getting locked away, the DO threw back and tainted Saidan. Perhaps the taint was a little bit of the DO, kind of like he got his foot caught in the door, so that male channelers were touching the DO every time they touched the One Power. I think that is why he was still able to touch the world despite being imprisoned by the seals.
Any other thoughts about what the True Power is?
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I could be wrong, but my theory is that it had nothing to do with saidin and saidar, but is power drawn directly from the Dark One.
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I could be wrong, but my theory is that it had nothing to do with saidin and saidar, but is power drawn directly from the Dark One.
That would be another possibility, but as was pointed out to me.
We're pretty sure Moridin was channeling Saidin, hence him saying he won't channel Saidin anymore.
It sounds like at least, saidar and saidin are part of it, but who knows?
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I've always taken them as 3 separate powers, the True Power is the "essence" of the DO, that's why he chooses who channels it.
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We're pretty sure Moridin was channeling Saidin, hence him saying he won't channel Saidin anymore.
I thought that Moridin was channeling the True Power when the balefire intersected because Rand was unable to sense anything. I guess that Moridin could have inverted the weaves, but it doesn't seem likely that he would be carrying around some inverted balefire. Is it even possible to invert a weave like that? Anyway, I thought the reason that he stopped channeling saidin is because he sees Rand whenever he does. Not to mention his addiction to the TP.
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We're pretty sure Moridin was channeling Saidin, hence him saying he won't channel Saidin anymore.
I thought that Moridin was channeling the True Power when the balefire intersected because Rand was unable to sense anything. I guess that Moridin could have inverted the weaves, but it doesn't seem likely that he would be carrying around some inverted balefire. Is it even possible to invert a weave like that? Anyway, I thought the reason that he stopped channeling saidin is because he sees Rand whenever he does. Not to mention his addiction to the TP.
well, rand sees HIS face when he channels saidin, I would assume it would go the other way, however moridin was channeling the TP during the balefire incident because rand recalls not sensing him channeling at all later on (which is our first hint that it was moridin). However, don't the forsaken mention at some point that he was channel the TP exclusively while he was still ishy as well? Because I always assumed that just carried over from ish.
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I believe you are right about Ishy/Moridin. The Saa must eventually cause your eyes to light on fire like Bahalzaman's was. The seal on the DO's prison was incomplete because only one half of the power was used to create it. The Creator split his Power into two halves, while the DO keeps his power as one. Because of this, both halves of the One Power are needed to counteract the full potential of the DO's power. It is a balance. We know the bore was originally created because of the desire to bridge Saidar and Saidin. They discovered the DO's power and didn't realize what it was until it was too late. I believe it is a safe assumption that the One Power is slightly more powerful than the "True" Power, which would explain why the creator could imprison the DO.
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I thought the fiery eyes were only in the World of Dreams? Also they could simply be a disguise, similar to the one pulled on that White Ajah Aes Sedai, the one who is second-in-command to Elaida? Forget her name.
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I thought the fiery eyes were only in the World of Dreams? Also they could simply be a disguise, similar to the one pulled on that White Ajah Aes Sedai, the one who is second-in-command to Elaida? Forget her name.
After a quick bit of digging on google (information found on wotmania here: http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1071&Category=Asmo )
In the latest Interview, in Hungary, Robert Jordan said:
“When you first begin using the True Power, there is nothing there, nothing in your eyes. After you have used the True Power for a while, you begin to have a black spot in your eyes when you´re using the True Power. The Saa becomes thicker and thicker. It gets to a point where you have used it so much, that you have steady streams even if you´re not channeling the True Power. At this point you are on the road to become what Ishamael was. You will get Fire Eyes. This is the ultimate level of the usage of the True Power. If you are not granted immortality, you are on your way to death. Not madness, but you are on your way to death."
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After a quick bit of digging on google (information found on wotmania here: http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1071&Category=Asmo )
In the latest Interview, in Hungary, Robert Jordan said:
“When you first begin using the True Power, there is nothing there, nothing in your eyes. After you have used the True Power for a while, you begin to have a black spot in your eyes when you´re using the True Power. The Saa becomes thicker and thicker. It gets to a point where you have used it so much, that you have steady streams even if you´re not channeling the True Power. At this point you are on the road to become what Ishamael was. You will get Fire Eyes. This is the ultimate level of the usage of the True Power. If you are not granted immortality, you are on your way to death. Not madness, but you are on your way to death."
:o Nice! Now the translation of Moridin's name is making more sense...
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here are several examples of the DO's power increasing. reality itself is unraveling, people are spontaneously erupting into a swarm of beetles. Ghosts are appearing all over the place. It's becoming quite a mess. It would only make sense that more powerful wards, and even combined Saidar/Saidin weaves will be necessary to counter the chaos now.
That is a plausible explanation. I have thought that reality is starting to shift because of his increasing power. Like how rooms and passageways change in the Royal Palace of Andor or ghosts are no longer held in whatever realm they went to after dying.
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here are several examples of the DO's power increasing. reality itself is unraveling, people are spontaneously erupting into a swarm of beetles. Ghosts are appearing all over the place. It's becoming quite a mess. It would only make sense that more powerful wards, and even combined Saidar/Saidin weaves will be necessary to counter the chaos now.
That is a plausible explanation. I have thought that reality is starting to shift because of his increasing power. Like how rooms and passageways change in the Royal Palace of Andor or ghosts are no longer held in whatever realm they went to after dying.
if by "his" you mean the DO then yes, it is his touch on the Wheel, beginning to unravel it, or something like that, it is a sign of TG i believe.
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Interesting read :)
I think that after the last battle is won (which it very probably will be), Saidin and Saidar will be gone from the world, or at least, out of reach.
Why? First of all, there's a lot of technological advancement mentioned (cannons, better crossbow, steam engines), which clears the road for a world without magic.
Furthermore, Rand will want to prevent the DO from tainting the power again. It's my guess that he will use the power in combination with Nynaeve (or someone else, just to make sure we've got both halves of the power) to seal the DO.
Now, the DO will again slowly break free, so after about 3000 years people will get access to the one power again, enabling them to forget the technological advancement they had and battle the DO with the OP again :) Or something similar.
Anyway, I think the next age will be one without magic but with technology. I'm not sure how this fits in any surviving hero's that were previously able to use the OP. Probably a lot of them will go suicidal, but we know from this one woman in what's-it-called that you can survive without the OP.
Just my 2 cents.
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I agree partly with what you said, but I don't agree with the One Power being gone from the world. RJ had plans to revisit the world and write other trilogies, so I don't think that he would've planned that for the ending.
Furthermore, Rand will want to prevent the DO from tainting the power again. It's my guess that he will use the power in combination with Nynaeve (or someone else, just to make sure we've got both halves of the power) to seal the DO.
I think that instead of Nynaeve it would be Egwene because in the beginning of the series there was a prophecy about those to being connected but not how they thought they would be.
I have often wondered where Padan Fain fits into this series he was one of the first bad guys introduced in the series, and reappears every so often. I think that Rands battle will take place on two levels, physical and spiritual. I think that the DO will possess Padan Fain and battle Rand, where Lews Therin finally takes control of Rand. Fain kills Rand. Rands three woman will stand over and morn Rand. Fain starts killing everyone except Mat and maybe a few others.
I know that the ending to the Great Hunt contradicts what I'll be predicting next, but I think that it is still possible in some way...All is lost the DO has won... Mat for what ever reason finds the Horn of Valere blows it and resurrects all the dead characters... We then find out that the dead are actually the heroes from the Age of Legends. Rand stikes down Fain and their battle continues on a spiritual realm.
Rand is able to bridge the gap between Saidar and Saidin and gives that ability to others fighting. Now the DO and Rand are equals unable to beat one another, so Rand forces the DO back into his prison where he is also locked up too. This would change the wheel and the pattern because now instead of just the DO, you have both good and bad working in equal unison. This would be the Breaking of the World that was prophesied. Saidin and Saidar would actually strengthen now becoming as strong as back in the Age of Legends.
I know there are a lot of holes in this, but I think something similar will happen...
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I agree partly with what you said, but I don't agree with the One Power being gone from the world. RJ had plans to revisit the world and write other trilogies, so I don't think that he would've planned that for the ending.
Furthermore, Rand will want to prevent the DO from tainting the power again. It's my guess that he will use the power in combination with Nynaeve (or someone else, just to make sure we've got both halves of the power) to seal the DO.
I think that instead of Nynaeve it would be Egwene because in the beginning of the series there was a prophecy about those to being connected but not how they thought they would be.
I have often wondered where Padan Fain fits into this series he was one of the first bad guys introduced in the series, and reappears every so often. I think that Rands battle will take place on two levels, physical and spiritual. I think that the DO will possess Padan Fain and battle Rand, where Lews Therin finally takes control of Rand. Fain kills Rand. Rands three woman will stand over and morn Rand. Fain starts killing everyone except Mat and maybe a few others.
I know that the ending to the Great Hunt contradicts what I'll be predicting next, but I think that it is still possible in some way...All is lost the DO has won... Mat for what ever reason finds the Horn of Valere blows it and resurrects all the dead characters... We then find out that the dead are actually the heroes from the Age of Legends. Rand stikes down Fain and their battle continues on a spiritual realm.
Rand is able to bridge the gap between Saidar and Saidin and gives that ability to others fighting. Now the DO and Rand are equals unable to beat one another, so Rand forces the DO back into his prison where he is also locked up too. This would change the wheel and the pattern because now instead of just the DO, you have both good and bad working in equal unison. This would be the Breaking of the World that was prophesied. Saidin and Saidar would actually strengthen now becoming as strong as back in the Age of Legends.
I know there are a lot of holes in this, but I think something similar will happen...
Fain was a faithful hound, I'm assuming he'll have another role but I think that his biggest was to cut Rand with the Dagger. It'd be funny if he fell into the "hole" where the DO is with the choden'kal (forgive my spelling) or some other powerful sa'angrael :P. I don't think that Saidin and Saidar will be bridged because this has happened before, probably countless amounts of times, and that hasn't happened. Rand lives on because of the vision Min has of him with a beggars cane, unless this will happen before the ending I'll stick with the bodyswap idea that I've grown more fond of :D
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we have been forgetting a rather large piece of the puzzle in this discussion–the Pattern. Are the changes in the world happening because the Dark One is touching the material world? Or is he touching the Pattern? What if the reason the Dark One is able to touch the world is that the Pattern is slowly unraveling and this causes the Seals to weaken? And, we don't even really know what the Pattern is. Is it created by the Creator (:P)? Is it run by the Dark One? Is the Pattern itself a heretofore untapped force/power? I myself think the Pattern is a very important and worthwhile subject to talk about….
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we have been forgetting a rather large piece of the puzzle in this discussion–the Pattern. Are the changes in the world happening because the Dark One is touching the material world? Or is he touching the Pattern? What if the reason the Dark One is able to touch the world is that the Pattern is slowly unraveling and this causes the Seals to weaken? And, we don't even really know what the Pattern is. Is it created by the Creator (:P)? Is it run by the Dark One? Is the Pattern itself a heretofore untapped force/power? I myself think the Pattern is a very important and worthwhile subject to talk about….
Well, isnt it the creator made the Wheel, and the wheel spins out the pattern? I think that's how it goes.
But you do bring up a good point. Are the strange things happening because the DO is touching the world, because the pattern says so, or are they happening because the DO isn't touching the world, but the *PATTERN*.
This makes a signifigant difference because the former means everything is going "according to plan" and the latter means that the DO is directly screwing up the plan.
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I've also had a thought.… (Well, obviously, but this is a new one. :P) Each being's life is a different thread in the Pattern, correct? And each thread can be "snipped.…" So does the Dark One have a thread? And, if so, can it be "snipped?"
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I believe that the changes are due to the DO touching the material world. Several characters are quoted as saying something along the lines of "The seal is weaking thus leading to him being able to influence our world." I don't think that even the DO have the power to actually touch the pattern.
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Madness, that sort of lends support to my point… you say that you
don't think that even the DO have the power to actually touch the pattern.
. Take a step back and really think about what you're saying. The Dark One doesn't have the power to touch the Pattern. So if the Dark One, one of the most evil, insanely powerful beings in the world cannot affect the Pattern…then wouldn't that mean that the Pattern is an entity in of itself? That it is all-powerful? Just a thought.…
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Madness, that sort of lends support to my point… you say that you don't think that even the DO have the power to actually touch the pattern.
. Take a step back and really think about what you're saying. The Dark One doesn't have the power to touch the Pattern. So if the Dark One, one of the most evil, insanely powerful beings in the world cannot affect the Pattern…then wouldn't that mean that the Pattern is an entity in of itself? That it is all-powerful? Just a thought.…
I think I see where you are trying to go with this. However, I wouldn't consider the Pattern an entity at all. The Pattern is just the term for the predetermined fate of an age determined by the Wheel. The Wheel was put in place by the Creator, which is powered by saidin and saidar, to "weave" how each age will come to pass. The Creator is the only thing that can be considered all-powerful.
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I see that. However, then the question turns to the Creator–can he influence the world like the Dark One? Is he helping out Rand & Co.? I'm just wondering exactly where the Creator and the Pattern fit into all of this.…And if the Creator created the Pattern, then he must have created the Dark One, too, no? So why?
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I see that. However, then the question turns to the Creator–can he influence the world like the Dark One? Is he helping out Rand & Co.? I'm just wondering exactly where the Creator and the Pattern fit into all of this.…And if the Creator created the Pattern, then he must have created the Dark One, too, no? So why?
I believe it was explicitly said that the creator created the world, then left mortals to their own devices. He probably *CAN* influence the world, but isn't, i think.
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Does the Creator influence the world directly? No...no I don't think so. However I believe he does in an indirect manner. It's evident that the Creator is a benevolent being and thus does not wish the DO to win and destroy all he's created so he imbues the good guys, Rand and co., with certain powers over the pattern. The powers I refer are that Rand, Mat, and Perrin, your three main good guys if you will, are taveren. Now they can't use that power conciously but it definately aids them when the really need it, for example, Mat's "luck". Assuming the creator is omniscient as well he gave them just enough pull over the pattern to aide them in their battle with the forces of evil.
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The Dark One and the Creator exist outside of the pattern, but they do have influence. The DO's influence is related to the size of the bore in the Pattern that imprisons him. His touch is more direct, and he may well be slowly destroying the Age Lace; he is definitely affecting the normal cycles of the world. The Creator has a more indirect approach. He spins out the souls of his most powerful channelers, as well as those with important Talents that help the cause of good. Using T'averen is the best example. The Pattern is actually changed by the actions of an individual, and this helps achieve the goals the Creator wants. Ironically, chaotic change seems to be necessary for good to win. What you should realize about the DO's influence is that his ulitmate goal is the destruction of all the Creator made. All the Darkfriends, especially the Chosen, are being duped. Shai'tan won't remake the world if he wins, he will unmake it.
To answer why the Dark One exists at all, it is balance. The Universe needs balance, so there must be evil. One side can supress the other to an extent, but it all seems to balance out in the end. Comparing the age of legends to the current age is proof of that balance. No war, very little crime, and a Utopian society during AoL, changes to hell on earth in just a few years, and ends up a constant struggle for millenia afterwards. So, in the end, neither side ever wins outright, they each get their turn holding the greater influence.
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Now we have arrived at the eternal question: WHY?? WHY did the Creator create this world and then leave it alone? WHY does the Creator just destroy the Dark One if he wants to? WHY, WHY, WHY?!?!?!?
Would you read the series if he did?
"Page 1: The creator destroyed the dark one. The end." :P
Also, why question WHY a deity/supreme being does what they do? We probably don't understand their reasonings, as our puny mortal brains can't comprehend them. Also, what if he is doing it just to see what happens? i.e.: "I'm going to create this world, give that jerk a little bit of access to it, and see what happens! This'll be fun!"
I know i totally would :P
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Haha, I know. I was just putting it out there.
But it sort of is the eternal question of the genre…to me, anyways. :P
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Haha, I know. I was just putting it out there.
But it sort of is the eternal question of the genre…to me, anyways. :P
I think that question extends out of that genre and far beyond works of fiction and into the world of religion. The problem of evil in a world created by a benevolent deity. That's probably what Jordan was going for as a lot of his work is tied in with a ton of Christian theology.
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Yeah. But it's still good to ask it. Maybe someday we'll get somewhere. Maybe :P.
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Without evil there really isn't the chance for people to show what their made of and for personal sacrifice etc.
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To answer why the Dark One exists at all, it is balance. The Universe needs balance, so there must be evil.
Passing the recursive buck. Why would the universe "need balance"? That just seems silly.
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Because if it didn't, no one would read the books 8).
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All this talk about the pattern makes my head hurt!!
Why doesn't the Creator just step in...? Here's a real world answer. I wish I could remember the book that I read this statement in, so I could reference it and quote it more correctly. However, I don't remember so I'll do the best I can.
We live such short lives that we have a hard time understanding long distances of time, like a million years ago 5 million years ago.... So if you condense the history of the world into a 24 hour period, then the entire history of the human race, from the first person until right now, would be the last 2 seconds of the day. The entire recorded history of the human race would be the last 1/10th of a second of the day... Think about how many times in those last "two seconds", how many people asked, where's god, prove it to me, save me, help me, blah, blah, blah... If he answered every prayer, saved every person, there would be miracles happening 24/7 every place you would look. God would be our circus monkey, and we would be his spoiled children...
There, now I hope your head hurts! ;D
Anyways, back to the WOT, I wonder if we'll ever see the Creator or not.
Fain was a faithful hound, I'm assuming he'll have another role but I think that his biggest was to cut Rand with the Dagger. It'd be funny if he fell into the "hole" where the DO is with the choden'kal (forgive my spelling) or some other powerful sa'angrael :P. I don't think that Saidin and Saidar will be bridged because this has happened before, probably countless amounts of times, and that hasn't happened. Rand lives on because of the vision Min has of him with a beggars cane, unless this will happen before the ending I'll stick with the bodyswap idea that I've grown more fond of :D
I'm going to entertain the body swap for a second, and ask this question. I remember reading how odd it was to have three taveren living in the same village. They were friends also, that would be considered off too, but I don't think that was mentioned in the book. Is there anyway possible that Rand, Perrin, and Mat are all the same person from different eras?? They can all sense what the other two are doing, and Rand has said that he can pull them back to him whenever he needs to.
So Rand and Perrin die during battle, and Mat blows the horn. Rand, Perrin, and Mat would become one person. All of Mat's memories would be his own, and his blank spots in his memory would be because he was split into three people. Mat/Rand/Perrin would then battle the DO as one person. He would have his Luck, be able to Channel, and his senses would be heightened w/ yellow eyes, and he'd be able to talk to the wolves.
OK, I know I'm on the ledge for this one, and I definitely wouldn't bet even a nickel that this theory is right. However, it was fun to think about!!
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I got the definite impression that the Dark One and the Creator are both self-existent opposites. I would argue that the Creator is more powerful than the Dark One simply because without creation there is no world (or prison) to destroy and thus nothing for the DO to do. However, this is a technicality; in terms of what they can do in practice in the context of the world as it is given in WoT, they are probably equally powerful.
In the books it seems likely that the creator created the Wheel, which weaves the Pattern, which makes up the world as we know it. He created mechanisms within the Wheel itself to counteract the DO when he touched the world (the Dragon being the archetypal example) and is now standing back to see if it works as planned (free will and all that).
The DO, on the other hand, is doing whatever he can to mess things up. I'm guessing that this is pretty limited, relative to what he could do. It still makes the humans plenty uncomfortable, though.
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I actually have always felt that the Creator is sort of outta things.… Like that he is an independent entity with no relations to anyone (including the DO), and that what happens in Randland isn't his first priority (maybe). Just my feeling.…
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As I recall there is some all caps dialog near the end of EotW when Rand is about to fight Ishamael the first time that I'm pretty sure is the Creator speaking. He states that he can't interfere and that only the "chosen one", i.e. Rand, can do what must be done. I'll look up the exact quote when I get home if no one else beats me to it.
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As I recall there is some all caps dialog near the end of EotW when Rand is about to fight Ishamael the first time that I'm pretty sure is the Creator speaking. He states that he can't interfere and that only the "chosen one", i.e. Rand, can do what must be done. I'll look up the exact quote when I get home if no one else beats me to it.
TEotW: Chapter 51:
Rand pounds on the ground and a wall of flame and rock pours over the Trollocs. He says, "This has to end." A voice in his head says, "IT IS NOT HERE. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL." Rand says, "Where?" The voice says, "NOT HERE."
Obviously this is para-phrased (except for the part in quotes).
This is the ONLY time rand talks to this particular voice. It doesn't explicitly say it's the creator anywhere that I'm aware of, but I know alot of people take it to be that.
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Personally I think it is the Creator and the DO is trapped inside the pattern. He also won't actually take part in the battle, but Rand & Moridin will do the actual physical fighting. Purely a guess, and can't wait to find out!
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Maybe the Dark One and the Creator are brothers.… LOL That would be funny!!!! :D
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Maybe the Dark One and the Creator are brothers.… LOL That would be funny!!!! :D
Then who's kids are they?
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Maybe the Dark One and the Creator are brothers.… LOL That would be funny!!!! :D
Then who's kids are they?
Rand's and Elayne's! TIME PARADOX!!!! :O
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Maybe the Dark One and the Creator are brothers.… LOL That would be funny!!!! :D
Then who's kids are they?
Rand's and Elayne's! TIME PARADOX!!!! :O
Please, not Elayne!
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Rand's and Elayne's! TIME PARADOX!!!! :O
Which one's the boy and which one's the girl? :)
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Well, isn't that a loaded question, Sarah! However, seeing as neither of them are human, it is a moot point. RJ has, on several occaisions, taken time to remind his readers that the DO is not human, and shouldn't be given human characteristics.
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Rand's and Elayne's! TIME PARADOX!!!! :O
Which one's the boy and which one's the girl? :)
they're both male AND female! Plot twist! :O
Akin to Hel from norse mythology, they each have differing left and right halves of their body, together having one whole female and one whole male among them!
[/Eero's crazy theories]
also: If any of this actually proves true even though i'm joking, I am TOTALLY reserving the right to say "I called it"
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No…maybe the father is like this ultra-powerful, mega-important guy who we meet in the last book.…And in the end he dies and Rand becomes him to continue the cycle, and then Aviendha is reincarnated as his co-ultra-powerful-mega-important wife to give birth to the Creator and the Dark One, who are twin boys but the Creator is like three minutes older than the Dark One so he gets more power.…Wow this is weird.
Just a little off-topic story: I have a friend who has a twin brother and she came out 45 minutes before the other twin…isn't that crazy??
Maybe they're like Hermes is often depicted…having at least one sexual organ of each sex.…
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As far as it goes I am pretty sure that the Creator and the Dark One are brothers. At least in the metaphysical sense, they are equal and opposite halves of thing.
The Creator bound the Dark One at the begining of time but the Dark One is the one who can finally stop the wheel turning if he ever does get free.
Also my pet theory, and sorry if this has been stated already, I didn't have time to read the whole thread, is that at the end of the Last Battle the Dragon must sacrafice himself and take the DO into himself, then trap himself outside of the turning of the wheel. Basically at the end of it all Rand will become the new DO and Lews Therrin will finally be able to be released but it is that binding of himself to the DO that sticks him in the reincarnation cycle.
But then again I have had that idea since I read the first book for the first time and I was about 10 so maybe it makes no sense now.
It could also explain the Taint on the True Source as well assuming that Lews Therrin was channeling at the time that he became the DO that evil could have been an unitentional backwash across the Source. Perhaps if Rand is not channeling at the time he makes the same sacrafice then the Source will remain pure since there is no open conduit to it.
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I hope the Creator guy is explained a bit in AMoL…is he just a super-powerful channeler? Or does h have God-like powers, like in 'Bruce Almighty?' 8)
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Ummm....The Creator IS God. He is not actually a "he" at all, but a supernatural entity, and the DO is his opposite.
The male half of the power was tainted because the DO was able to "touch" it while the seals were being embued. My theory is that, had both Saidin and Saidar been used to seal the bore, the DO would not have been able to taint either half, and the seal would have been complete.
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Before the speculation starts getting too wild, I would like to note that RJ officially stated that this turning of the wheel---this time when the Dragon fights against the DO---is not unique or special in any way from any other turning. These events (or ones whose Age Lace was very similar) have all happened before and will all happen again (at least once, at any rate). This means that any possible futures must maintain the cosmological status quo: the Dark One will still exist, probably sealed off from creation but still there to be found again when the Age of Legends rolls back. The Creator will still not be interfering, allowing his creations to protect themselves if they will. The Dragon will continue his everlasting battle will the Dark One. Any crazy theories that break this are, well, just crazy theories.
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I agree, happyman. That's what Herid Fel (is that his name? the philosopher guy) told Rand. Therefore, there had to be a way to cleanse saidin. I think that carries over to the DO's prison as well. It will have to be remade completely, not just patched again, likely using both saidin and saidar.
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I think that the only way to re-seal the bore fully would be to use both choeden kal (sp?), which is kind of impossible since one is now dead. So, I like this remaking thing.
Also, another possibility that has been brought up is that Rand kills the Dark One but someone else replaces the Dark One immediately after due to the need of the pattern to have a Dark One. I think it's needlessly complex, but I haven't seen anyone prove it wrong yet, so...
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I don't think the DO can be killed, neither do I think that it is possible for some humanoid to take its place.
Furthermore, since the Choedal Kan where created once and now one is destroyed, it is possible in coming ages to create something similar again. I also though that, even though the DO was sealed away/imprisoned somehow every age, this was done with varying success. After all, in the Age of Legends the DO was hardly able to touch the world at all, people didn't even remember his existence or the bore would not have been created (at least not unintentionally). Another thing about people not remembering the DO is that chances are that the AoL was either a lot longer than the current age is, or the age before that was very different from the current one. I can't recall if there is a mention of the transition to the AoL from the age before that, it would be interesting to know how that happened.
This means that in the "last" battle the DO will somehow be sealed away or be imprisoned again, whatever the means. If this would not happen the DO would destroy the world utterly and completely.
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I am not certain the female Choedan Kal was actually destroyed. All we really know is that the access ter'angreal for it melted and that the actual statue glowed very brightly. There were quite a number of access ter'angreal originally. One piece of a broken one was discovered I think in the Tarasin Palace (my memory's a little vague on that), and it's quite possible another intact one will be discovered somewhere else.
There are a few hints that the age before the Age of Legends is the present day modern world. Two of them that I remember off the top of my head, both tales mentioned by Thom, are Mosk and Merk, two giants that battled with spears of fire that reached around the world (Mosk = Moscow, Merk = America, spears = ICBMs), and Anna the Wise Counselor (Ann Landers?).
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Sorry Douglas, but the female Choeden kahl was destroyed. The destruction of the Sa'Angreal on Tremalking was what caused the people there to commit mass suicide, as it signaled the "end of the Age of Illusion". I don't think it is needed anyway. If all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man linked to form one tremendous circle, the power would be significant. It only took 100 individual men to partially close the bore. I would think that a combined force of 200 men and women channelers would finish the job.
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According to both my memory and the WoT wiki (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Choedan_Kal), it was the sa'angreal glowing, not being destroyed, that caused the mass suicide. Glowing just means they are in non trivial use, not that they are suffering overload. I remember some mention of a reaction to the male one lighting up like the sun for Rand and Asmodean's battle, and that one still works fine.
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According to both my memory and the WoT wiki (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Choedan_Kal), it was the sa'angreal glowing, not being destroyed, that caused the mass suicide. Glowing just means they are in non trivial use, not that they are suffering overload. I remember some mention of a reaction to the male one lighting up like the sun for Rand and Asmodean's battle, and that one still works fine.
According to chapter summaries of KoD CH 22 from library.tarvlaon.net:
"Cemaeille din Selaan Long Eyes enters the cabin with bad news. She informs the women that three weeks ago the Amayar began asking the gift of passage to each of the Sea Folk islands, and all of the Amayar left the Sea Folk ports. When the Sea Folk noticed that none had returned, people were sent to Amayar villages. All the Amayar were dead or dying. They had all poisoned themselves in the belief that the end of Illusion had come and that it was the end of time; this was signaled by the melting of The Great Hand on Tremalking. None of the Amayar could be saved. Zaida says ships must go immediately to every island to see if anyone is still alive."
The great hand, of course, belonged to the Choedan Kal. The access key as well has melted.
Edit: According to WH Ch. 35 from Timna's POV (AkA, random Tremalking inhabitant), the people took the glowing as the sign to start the mass suicides. It's mentioned later that it MELTED, in KoD CH 22 from Harine din Togara's PoV.
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I think that the only way to re-seal the bore fully would be to use both choeden kal (sp?), which is kind of impossible since one is now dead. So, I like this remaking thing.
Also, another possibility that has been brought up is that Rand kills the Dark One but someone else replaces the Dark One immediately after due to the need of the pattern to have a Dark One. I think it's needlessly complex, but I haven't seen anyone prove it wrong yet, so...
There's two different categories: Proven wrong, and remotely likely. If this book was by, say, Brandon Sanderson, this outcome would not be unreasonable, all things considered. In RJ's work, though, it seems to go against some very deep grain when it comes to the nature of the Creator and the DO---the two of them seem to be forces outside the nature of the pattern itself, untouchable from within it. The DO seems to have the Creator's power but very different motivations. The standard Randland catechism, the descriptions of the bore, RJ's statements on the matter---they all combine to create an atmosphere in which anything besides saving the world for the moment from a perpetual, self-existent threat is unlikely.
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I think that the only way to re-seal the bore fully would be to use both choeden kal (sp?), which is kind of impossible since one is now dead. So, I like this remaking thing.
Also, another possibility that has been brought up is that Rand kills the Dark One but someone else replaces the Dark One immediately after due to the need of the pattern to have a Dark One. I think it's needlessly complex, but I haven't seen anyone prove it wrong yet, so...
There's two different categories: Proven wrong, and remotely likely. If this book was by, say, Brandon Sanderson, this outcome would not be unreasonable, all things considered. In RJ's work, though, it seems to go against some very deep grain when it comes to the nature of the Creator and the DO---the two of them seem to be forces outside the nature of the pattern itself, untouchable from within it. The DO seems to have the Creator's power but very different motivations. The standard Randland catechism, the descriptions of the bore, RJ's statements on the matter---they all combine to create an atmosphere in which anything besides saving the world for the moment from a perpetual, self-existent threat is unlikely.
While I agree with everything you said here, as you are most likely right, I'm going to go ahead and stick with my insane-o theory from earlier wherein Elayne gives birth to the creator and the DO, Thom ends up being Moiraine, Lan is a goat, Lews therin was in hiding the whole time, and the swamp monster protecting the pirate treasure was actually old man Jenkins from the gas station up the road (I embellish it a bit) that I will now dub Theory Awesome.
Seriously, though, I HIGHLY doubt that the DO will be "killed" then replaced. While there's certainly nothing explicitly barring it currently, it just doesn't seem to follow RJ's writing style.
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I'm curious as to what further part the Horn of Valere and the dead/brought-back-to-life heroes will play in AMoL…yeah, they'll probably come back and kill lots of Trollocs and Fades and stuff, but somehow I always thought Artur Hawking and his guys would do something big in the last book, like bring the secret of cleaning Saidin (I thought that before it was cleansed, obviously) or how to stop the True Power, or…something.
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To Shaggy:
Its also quite possible that the Horn of Valerie is a red herring (we must remember it played no role at the end of the AOL) and will not have a significant role in AMOL at all. RJ is said to have intended to have left certain subplots unresolved in AMOL. Moreover, we know he had intended to write an outrigger novel based 10 years after Tarmon Goidon centered on Mat and Tuon in which the Horn of Valeire could have played a part.
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Oh, I see…
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To Shaggy:
Its also quite possible that the Horn of Valerie is a red herring (we must remember it played no role at the end of the AOL) and will not have a significant role in AMOL at all. RJ is said to have intended to have left certain subplots unresolved in AMOL. Moreover, we know he had intended to write an outrigger novel based 10 years after Tarmon Goidon centered on Mat and Tuon in which the Horn of Valeire could have played a part.
That could be, that would make an interesting outrigger, but I don't think so. The horn is supposed to bring the heroes from the AOL's back to battle the DO. RJ was pretty good about setting up characters and other events. How many books had one or two sentences about Logain before he became a part of the story? I think the Horn of Valere is the same way. I think he talked about it just enough, so that when he goes back to it we'll remember the importance of it.
I think that since this series was originally supposed to be a six book series(??), and the role that the horn played in the first couple of books, and that he knew from the get go how the series would end, I think the horn definitely plays a part. On top of that it'll probably be the pivotal point in the battle.
I'm wondering if Jain Farstrider has a role in the final book or not? So far it doesn't seem like he even belongs in the story. Here's what it says about him in the glossary.
A hero of the northern lands who journeyed to many lands and had many adventures; the author of many books, as well as being the subject of books and stories. He vanished in 981 NE, after returning from a trip into the Great Blight which some said had taken him all the way to Shayol Ghul.
He could be a red herring, however, lets say he's not. What's his purpose? There is a group of nomads cruising around looking for a song, I forget the groups name, I think that perhaps the song is tied to Jain Farstrider, and maybe even the Horn of Valere.
Another possibility could be, and I don't know where 981 NE fits into a time line, but maybe he got changed into an Ogre while at Shayul Ghul. Maybe that is where the Ogre population originated from?
Anyone else have any thoughts about this or anything else?
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There is quite a bit of speculation that Noal, the mysterious old guy wandering around with Mat who volunteered to be the third for the Moiraine rescue expedition, is Jain Farstrider.
The song the Tinkers are seeking is shown in the Age of Legends memories Rand experiences in Rhuidean in The Shadow Rising. As I understand it, that song's return and full power use would require the revival of the race that the Green Man at the Eye of the World was the last survivor of. It is remotely possible that the song might be rediscovered, but I expect it to just be a flavorful bit of history and I very much doubt the Nym (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Constructs#Nym) will return. There is a faint possibility that some were preserved in a Stasis Box, but I doubt it.
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I don't remember where it was but I think Min had a viewing that pretty much said Perrin would discover the song.
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Who doesn't think Noal is Jain?
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Who doesn't think Noal is Jain?
I had my suspicions about Noal, but never took the time to confirm my suspicions when I was reading WoT. Now that I am (probably a lot of us) are getting excited about the next book I've been brushing up on some of the WoT web sites. I was surprised that the Noal = Jain Farstrider theory isn't really a theory. It's a well documented fact.
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/characters/j/jain_charin.html
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Wait–what's a red herring??
I don't think RJ would let such an important thread like the Horn of Valere just die like that.…
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A red herring is a false scent or something to throw you off the trail of what's really important. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(narrative)
I think that the Horn of Valere will definitely show up in the last book.
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I am looking forward to Mat using the horn to introduce Arthur Hawkwing to Tuon, and have Artur order Tuon to follow Rand.
And Tuon's reaction to mat as hornsounder will be priceless!
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I am looking forward to Mat using the horn to introduce Arthur Hawkwing to Tuon, and have Artur order Tuon to follow Rand.
And Tuon's reaction to mat as hornsounder will be priceless!
That's the best theory I've heard so far, lol! :D
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Thanks, Necro.
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Oh I get it…just out of curiosity, though–why are they called 'red herrings?'
I wonder if Tuon'll like prostrate herself if she sees Hawkwing.…
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Oh I get it…just out of curiosity, though–why are they called 'red herrings?'
Supposedly, the origin of the term comes from the 1800's, when fugitives from the law would rub a herring around areas they ran, because herring gets a very pungent smell, to throw off the hounds.
That's what i've heard anyway, dont know if it's true.
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That's pretty cool that such an old term is still used today.…
But would they kill the herring first??
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Seeing as a Herring is a fish, and can't breathe out of water, it is safe to assume the it didn't survive.
Anyway, I would love to see Tuon's reaction to Hawkwing, as well as all the other assumptions she stands by. She doesn't believe in T'averen, or really understand what the Power can really do. I also want someone to make her see what a fool she is. She thinks because she doesn't actually channel herself she is absolved of the sin of being a Channeler. If she controls the channeler, it is no different than doing it herself. I wonder if Rand will be the one to break the Seanchan like he broke the Aiel. Imagine what would happen if they find out that Ishamael was Hawkwing's advisor, and caused his mistrust of Aes Sedai, as well as his sending Luthair away. Heck, I would love to see the look on Tuon's face when she learns that her Voice "Anath" was actually Semirhage!
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:-[Hehe right.… *smacks himself in the face*
A different way of living doesn't make a person a fool. I'm Jewish. Should I think all Christians are fools? Of course not.
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If my different way of living involves systematic torture on weekdays, I'd hope you'd look at me a little funny.
As for Tuon...well. Her way of living is WRONG. She is enslaving human beings. Case closed. I really hope we don't have to continue this discussion.
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i think the most interesting part about the Tuon character will be the realization that some of the things her culture believes might not be "Blessed by the Creator." If it turns out to be a much more extreme version of what happened with Egeanin (spelling if awful) and Nyneve/Elayne, then it could be a very powerful character moment.
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Oh I get it…just out of curiosity, though–why are they called 'red herrings?'
Supposedly, the origin of the term comes from the 1800's, when fugitives from the law would rub a herring around areas they ran, because herring gets a very pungent smell, to throw off the hounds.
That's what i've heard anyway, dont know if it's true.
That's one of the supposed original meaning, another is that they used herrings in the training of foxhounds to decipher fainter scents when presented with much stronger ones.
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I was kind of just making a slightly off-topic generic statement…I guess it didn't come out that way.
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I'm very interested to see what will happen with Tuon in the next book. I'm sure she's going to get her eyes opened to what the rest of the world is like outside of Seanchan. And figure out her husband. The Matt/Tuon scenes are some of my favorites. It's so interesting to see them clash because they see everything so differently. Maybe we'll even get to see more someday! (crosses fingers)
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If my different way of living involves systematic torture on weekdays, I'd hope you'd look at me a little funny.
As for Tuon...well. Her way of living is WRONG. She is enslaving human beings. Case closed. I really hope we don't have to continue this discussion.
Torture of who?
Her way of living is wrong to you, but not to her. Just like I am sure my way of living is wrong to you as well, but not to me. There are alot of things in this world that people hold as gospel, that I think are just plain wrong, but they chose to live that way, and the slight majority backs them. And really, that is the difference between "right" and "wrong" - the people in charge are right, the people not in charge are wrong.
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The torture thing was a different, unrelated example. However, still firmly in the WOT universe the Seanchan have tortured Aes Sedai prisoners, such as Egwene when they made her feel like she was being boiled alive. I don't know/remember if it is stated that Tuon has done such. I personally think that was before RJ had truly decided what the Seanchan were like, but hey.
In real life: I believe there is a difference between right and wrong that is unaffected by what the majority believes. Often it is hard to tell which is which. Often people disagree fervently on which is which. However, it is out there.
As for your particular lifestyle...I'm not going to play games with you. I think it is wrong. However, you and I are exactly the same.
I know you probably don't believe in sin, and God. However, until I gave my life to Him I was counted exactly like you. I know of far more "sins" present in myself and my own heart than I do about you :P So please, please don't feel like I am condemning you or being self-righteous. That's the opposite of what Christianity is about. Its about realizing you don't have any righteousness in yourself.
Okay, sorry for the off-topic :P
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If my different way of living involves systematic torture on weekdays, I'd hope you'd look at me a little funny.
As for Tuon...well. Her way of living is WRONG. She is enslaving human beings. Case closed. I really hope we don't have to continue this discussion.
Torture of who?
Her way of living is wrong to you, but not to her. Just like I am sure my way of living is wrong to you as well, but not to me. There are alot of things in this world that people hold as gospel, that I think are just plain wrong, but they chose to live that way, and the slight majority backs them. And really, that is the difference between "right" and "wrong" - the people in charge are right, the people not in charge are wrong.
I'm going to have to outright disagree. Might makes right??? Not a chance...well not as I see things anyways. Those in/with power may tell you one thing is right and another is wrong but that doesn't make it so. They may even punish you for not adhering to what they deem "right" but what is truly right is untouchable by any manmade laws. I believe everyone deep down knows what's right and what's wrong. Some, due in part to those in power, have a jaded view of what is right. A couple of my friends and I argued about this very same topic for well....well it still gets brought up. I honestly believe in an objective right. I once tried to see every right or wrong from a relative standpoint and I really just couldn't. Just because what is truly right is hard to find/understand and gets overlooked in favor of the "easy way" doesn't mean it isn't there.
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i agree with Madness.
by the "those in charge are right" argument, the holocaust during WWII was totally cool. so are the genocides that have happened in Africa, Indonesia, etc. You could argue the the guy who rapes a girl is "in charge," so he is right for doing it. No, i dont think i can roll with those thoughts.
now, Tuon doesn't think she is wrong at all. that has to do with her culture. within her culture she isn't wrong. but that doesnt mean is isnt wrong in general, and it doesnt mean she is right in general. the torturing of people so they behave as a good dog should is viewed as wrong by the main protagonists in WoT. thats just how the story is written.
what is important in the story is not whether she is right or wrong, but how her views cause tension, and should her views change, what effects that will have on her and the story. thats just storytelling. tension = better stories.
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The argument about this being right is the basic argument about Lawful vs. Morality. Because it's a law,does it make it right? Or does morality dictate what's right? If so, then whose Morality? Should Laws be based on Morality, or Order? Everyones views on this will differ based on how lawful or how moral one is.
Also, let's not forget *WHY* tuon (and the seanchan) think the way they do. In their past, Channelers cause many deaths and wars, so in an effort to control them, they were bound to slavery. As a society, they have accepted this as a necessary evil to prevent harm to the innocent. In fact, their society has accepted it to the point where it's almost considered an honor of sorts to be forced into a certain lifestyle (slave or master) and people who she the correct signs accept it with humility. Naturally, OTHER societies are appalled by it, it's kind of like how some eastern countries would find us monsters for eating beef.
So lets look at it from the perspective in ancient times. There's a group of people. A vast majority (let's say 80-90%) of them are blood thirsty and murderous, and harm your innocent citizens. These people are also superior to you in a way that you CANNOT fight them back, no matter what you do, and they know it. As such, they have no reason at all to bargain with you. However, you have a certain tool that will allow you to bind them to slavery, and keep them in check. Doing so, you keep this group of people from harming the innocent, but requires you to bind all of them in order to be sure of the safety. Even one of these people on a rampage could kill hundreds or thousands. Would you choose to bind them to slavery, or allow the innocent to suffer by their hands?
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what you see with Tuon and the Seanchan is one possible reaction to those who channel. thats the actual interesting think about it. yes, the seanchan chose to enslave a portion of the population to deal with it, but that is THEIR response. the main continent has several societies that deal with it differently from Aes Sedai to Aiel to the Kin. It's as if we get to see the different "what ifs". Now, people growing up in the seanchan culture may say they feel honored to be chosen and sul'dam or d'amani (or however they are spelled - im in audio-book land right now), but does that mean Egwene should feel honored because she was leashed and tortured? In history, those chosen for human sacrifice were told it was an honor. I personally dont feel right saying "yup, it was an honor." but we can argue opinions all day to no good or purposeful result - i suggest we dont.
as to your dilemma question, who can say? you can argue both ways. things are never as simple as the paragraph you wrote - there are always hundreds of other things to consider. I personally dont want to debate it, because it wont lend enough good stuff to the thread without hurting it more. there is no good answer or solution to your proposed situation. it makes for a good story idea due to all the tension, but it would sicken me to see either side of it in real life.
Steven Erikson was once asked a question about how bleak he portrayed life in his novels. He responded by saying that no matter how bleak he paints things, it can never possibly compare with witnessing it in a real-life situation. Stories can make easy answers, but life is never that easy. (that was another example of my endless pimping of Steven Erikson's work. Go get him now!)
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what you see with Tuon and the Seanchan is one possible reaction to those who channel. thats the actual interesting think about it. yes, the seanchan chose to enslave a portion of the population to deal with it, but that is THEIR response. the main continent has several societies that deal with it differently from Aes Sedai to Aiel to the Kin. It's as if we get to see the different "what ifs". Now, people growing up in the seanchan culture may say they feel honored to be chosen and sul'dam or d'amani (or however they are spelled - im in audio-book land right now), but does that mean Egwene should feel honored because she was leashed and tortured? In history, those chosen for human sacrifice were told it was an honor. I personally dont feel right saying "yup, it was an honor." but we can argue opinions all day to no good or purposeful result - i suggest we dont.
as to your dilemma question, who can say? you can argue both ways. things are never as simple as the paragraph you wrote - there are always hundreds of other things to consider. I personally dont want to debate it, because it wont lend enough good stuff to the thread without hurting it more. there is no good answer or solution to your proposed situation. it makes for a good story idea due to all the tension, but it would sicken me to see either side of it in real life.
Steven Erikson was once asked a question about how bleak he portrayed life in his novels. He responded by saying that no matter how bleak he paints things, it can never possibly compare with witnessing it in a real-life situation. Stories can make easy answers, but life is never that easy. (that was another example of my endless pimping of Steven Erikson's work. Go get him now!)
I didnt mean that paragraph to be something to be debated, nor for it to be something everyone else has to answer. What I was trying to do is illustrate WHY the seanchan believe as they do, and they aren't just going "LOL! SLAVERY!" They're doing what they do for, as they believe, the greater good. Is it the greater good? Who's to say. It's a 'Your mileage may vary' sort of deal.
Naturally, I don't think Egwene should feel honored at all. Which she obviously doesnt. She hasn't shared the views and experiences their society has. As i said before, the seanchan view it as a necessary evil, so it's a good thing to them. And, as almost any society will do, they believe they're right, everyone else's opinions be damned. (they also believe that the entire continent they're coming back to belongs to them, but that's another story)
I understand what you're trying to say, im just not trying to simplify it in my above statements or say "this is how it is, so it's ok". I'm just trying to point out the angle i feel was ignored.
Also, i may have to check out Steven Erikson some day.
also also: Boy this topic has strayed, hasn't it? :P
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it hasnt strayed much at all, because we got right back to the point and are giving examples from the book. these are huge things to look towards in AMoL. I think you sound just as interested in the possible radical character shifts just like i do. after so many books, that's what interests me more than "hows it gonna end."
Erikson is awesome, you just have to be willing to put up with a REALLY high learning curve. But i love that I actually have to think when reading his stories. And he handles this very question we discuss in every novel. Who is right? is ANYBODY right? from your comments, i think you might dig it.
Oh, and totally see what you are saying, and i think you HAVE to look at that angle to understand the characters. otherwise everyone is the same, and thats boring.
/highfive
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yeah, I'm a big fan of stories with deep characters who all have differing/skewed views on morality. What I don't care as much for (which you honestly see a lot in modern day literature) is when the writer puts everything from his/her morality views and judgements. When you do you get groups like "here's the good guys. They're saints, and always agree and do good!" and "these are the bad guys. They're evil beyond saving" and everyone else either supports the heros (they're the good guys afterall) or disagree/hate them because they don't fully understand the whole.
On topic, I am very honestly interested to see everyone's reaction when they learn the information and things they haven't known up until now, like the example of Tuon and the true nature of channeling, and all those sort of things.
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Someone above said that they believe that all people know what is right and wrong inside of them. My contradictory point on this matter is that if that is true, then you are saying that somewhere inside, Hitler, Stalin, Muscellini (spelling is bad, I know) and every other dictator, sadist and murderer knew what they were doing was wrong. I honestly think they believed what they were doing was right, possibly even for the betterment (word?) or the world. Then again, many of them were in a rather unstable state of mind, so.…
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Could you list a few of Erikson's works? Such as, which one I should start with. I need new reading material.
On the off-topic topic: I am glad to have stimulated such deep conversation. Obviously, might makes right is simplistic and sometimes abhorrent. But, as one person pointed out, I am an athiest, yet I am forced to use money which has "In God We Trust" printed on it. The pledge of Allegiance for the country I love says "One Nation Under God". Those are just some small examples. Religion is forced on me from all sides, yet, the majority in this country are Christian, so I am considered "wrong". And you know what? It REALLY doesnt bother me all that much because it means nothing to me. However, look at it this way. If the Roman gods were still prevalent and Christianity the minority and all of our money said "In Jupiter We Trust", wouldnt you feel a bit slighted?
there is right and there is wrong, and then there is a supertanker full of gray areas. Might makes right is the key to the gray areas.... but then again, in some countries, even the "right and wrong" are gray, even though they are not gray to us. There are hundreds, if not thousands of people willing to blow themselves up to kill innocent people who think they are right too. There are dozens of entire countries who brutalize women in the name of religion because their religion says so. Slavery is the norm in alot of these countries, they just call it by a prettier name: "Marriage". So, this brings us full circle. Might does in fact make "right". and that is why many people feel ok, even justified, in saying that I am "wrong", even though I live by a moral code that is similar, if not the same, as alot of others.
On topic: will RJ/BS have Tuon feel regret for the centuries of slavery? I sure hope not, but he might.
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On topic: will RJ/BS have Tuon feel regret for the centuries of slavery? I sure hope not, but he might.
I highly doubt that this will happen (I hope it does not turn out so, as well). If this happens, then it is a likely indication that all those with different points of views, opinions and differences shall evolved to become what we consider "right." Then everyone will be like robots, and the story will be ruined. Unless it's just Tuon who changes. Which I doubt.
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I would like to respectfully say that there is nothing gray in the examples you have given us. Suicide bombing is wrong. Marital abuse is wrong. People who's consciences have been so seared as to think they are in the right is terrible.
I understand that you are an atheist. However, I believe there is a difference between "God" and "Jupiter". We all know that the deity referenced on the dollar bill is the one that nearly all of the Founders believed in, but it does not specifically state the God of the Bible or "Jesus." I think there is a difference.
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Just because there 'isn't anything gray in the examples [he has] given us' doesn't mean they don't exist. They just haven't been posted. In this thread. Yet.
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Quite true. I absolutely concede that point. It is hard, sometimes very hard, to find out what is actually right and wrong. There are some things for which "right" and "wrong" just don't apply; pizza toppings and pink unicorns, for one.
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:DMost definitely. Although I'm sure my little cousin would argue that liking brocoli on pizza could be seen as "wrong"…well if I had a little cousin. Actually, I think i DO have a little cousin. I'll have to check.
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I would like to respectfully say that there is nothing gray in the examples you have given us. Suicide bombing is wrong. Marital abuse is wrong. People who's consciences have been so seared as to think they are in the right is terrible.
I understand that you are an atheist. However, I believe there is a difference between "God" and "Jupiter". We all know that the deity referenced on the dollar bill is the one that nearly all of the Founders believed in, but it does not specifically state the God of the Bible or "Jesus." I think there is a difference.
In that context, it is important to point out that most believers, whether Hindu or Muslim tend to refer to their god as "God". In that sense, it seems largely to be irrelevant to the believer - or "practitioners" more accurately, given that most of the religious world does not follow the Abrahamic tradition of accentuating the importance of "faith" - whether their gods are named YHWH, Siva or Jupiter. The ancient Greeks and Romans followed this practise, as well.
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I would like to respectfully say that there is nothing gray in the examples you have given us. Suicide bombing is wrong. Marital abuse is wrong. People who's consciences have been so seared as to think they are in the right is terrible.
I understand that you are an atheist. However, I believe there is a difference between "God" and "Jupiter". We all know that the deity referenced on the dollar bill is the one that nearly all of the Founders believed in, but it does not specifically state the God of the Bible or "Jesus." I think there is a difference.
I agree with you on the first part. Of course it is wrong... to those of us who have evolved. Go back barely over 60 years in this country and women were little more than property still. It was teh 2nd World War which changed teh male view when women worked in factories and such. the phrase "rule of thumb" comes from a British law which was only recently stricken from the books that you could not beat your wife with anything wider than your thumb. Right and wrong ARE subjective, even when there are certain truths which we hold self-evident. Such as murder, rape, slavery and the brutalizing of women, and even: forcing religion on someone, yet, that takes place every day in this country. Just the fact that it is God and not god is proof that it is indeed the Judeo-Christian god, or an offshoot (such as Islam) which is being referenced. the Greek and roman gods where referred to in the lower case, since each person worshipped a god of their choosing. The Hindi people also have multiple gods and therefore "god" would also be lower case. I am not here to belabor the point. It really is fact. If you are not a believer in god or God, you are considered less of a person in this country by most. People come right out and say, if you dont believe, then you have no morals, which is patently false. But that is what they believe, and they are in power, therefore they are "right" and I am "wrong" regardless of how I might feel about teh subject. Many of the Mormons on this board should be able to sympathize with me, if they could get past their prejudice. Mormonism has been considered a "cult" and "weird" by the majority for a long long time. Utah would not even be a state if Mormon church leaders had not been forced to give up polygamy. so to the majority, Mormons are no different than I am, even if they refuse to believe it.
PS: I like broccoli on pizza, a white pizza that is.
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The Hindi people also have multiple gods and therefore "god" would also be lower case.
This is actually false. Although the Hindu pantheon is expansive, most people pay service to only one. In written works such as the Bhagavadgita, the gods are regularly referred to as "God", or even "Lord". The same is the case in academic works on the Indian religions. However, this distinction pertains only to written texts. For most Hindus the textual dimension is foreign and irrelevant to their religious practises, as the Indian religions have been almost entirely focussed on the oral aspects of their religion, and on the practise of rote memorisation.The distinction between higher and lower cases just do not come into the equation in a meaningful way.
EDIT: Other than that, I mostly agree.
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Point conceded. I have not extensively studied Hindusim as I have Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
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Mtlhddoc2, there is a most profound difference between broccoli on white pizza and broccoli on regular pizza. I feel disrespected when you ignore my feelings.
But if we say things like the harming of others and physical abuse are wrong, then what about situations where the person deserves it in the extreme? What if they killed members of your family; is it OK to retaliate against them if given the chance?
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Morally, I do not feel that it is. Revenge is not a morally acceptable act, in my book. Killing or harming to protect from immenent harm, perceived or real, is acceptable in my book, however distasteful it might be. this does not mean that I have not WANTED to harm someone before, but wanting to do something and actually doing it arte not the same thing.
Broccoli on regular tomato sauce pizza sounds pretty gross though. Broccoli and tomatoes dont mix well in my taste book.
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Hey, I know I'm a latecomer to this discussion but I enjoy this too much to sit out. I grabbed a couple sentences from the last page, hopefully you don't look at them as taken out of context, the thought still seems well contained.
Right and wrong ARE subjective, even when there are certain truths which we hold self-evident. Such as murder, rape, slavery and the brutalizing of women, and even: forcing religion on someone, yet, that takes place every day in this country.
That comes off to me as a contradiction, here's why. When I think subjective the phrase "true for you" comes to mind, for example, the sentence "broccoli tastes good on pizza" is subjective since it can be true for some people and false for others. If issues of right and wrong (moral issues) are subjective then there cannot be self-evident truths.
To claim that there are any moral truths you are saying that morality is objective. To claim that any of those moral truths are self-evident you are saying there is a single moral standard which all people have some knowledge of.
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That was my point. :)
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Wow, I didn't think I would set off such a spirited debate. My point about Tuon was her hipocrisy; she has learned that she can, in fact, learn to channel, yet she still thinks she is better than those who actually channel because she doe not. The problem is, she controls the channeler in the way a hunter controls a rifle. Even if she couldn't learn to channel, the fact that the Damane are under complete control means those who control them have the same power as Aes Sedai, and that makes them no less dangerous. Ironically, it is the Damane who allowed the Seanchan to maintain power in Seandar. The only thing the Seanchan did right was to "unite" all the warring Aes Sedai factions by collaring all of them. Also, we know Tuon is wrong because we have the benefit of knowing that her ancestors were tricked by Ishamael; their propehcy of the dragon is false.
As for her morality, she breaks the golden rule: Would I want that done to me? To those I love? If the answer is no, then it shouldn't be OK for you to do it to someone else. Otherwise, you are putting yourself above others.
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It is morality this speaks of: "As for her morality, she breaks the golden rule: Would I want that done to me? To those I love? If the answer is no, then it shouldn't be OK for you to do it to someone else. Otherwise, you are putting yourself above others."
But the difference is, she is abiding by law and by conditioning and the religion of the Empire (it is not a religion per se, but acts like one) - the religion does not allow for any contradiction, even when ones apply. She would be perfectly fine if someone she loved was collared because it is what is supposed to happen. She might even be fine with being collared herself, as long as the "religion" requires it.
Even in todays religions, for better or worse, people to throw away their own children because they are gay, murder their daughters because they had sex and blow up buildings of people who believe differently. Yes, I am speaking of 9/11, but also of the abortion clinic bombings in Georgia and the Oklahoma City bombing. All of those involved were very religious people who thought they were doing the right thing. Religion, by doctrine, requires you to believe you are better than others who do not share your religion. Cathlics believe they are the only ones going to heaven, Born agains believe only those who have been "born again" are going to heaven. And all of you believe that because I do not believe in any god, I am most certainly the most heinous sinner of them all and am going stright to hell. Many of you probably even believe that because of my atheism, I couldnt possibly have a single moral fiber in my being.
I went a little afield, but mean no disrespect to anyone here. I was merely pointing out that what you say, does not always match up with how you act, this goes for individuals, governments, corporations and religions.
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I would like to respectfully say that there is nothing gray in the examples you have given us. Suicide bombing is wrong. Marital abuse is wrong. People who's consciences have been so seared as to think they are in the right is terrible.
I understand that you are an atheist. However, I believe there is a difference between "God" and "Jupiter". We all know that the deity referenced on the dollar bill is the one that nearly all of the Founders believed in, but it does not specifically state the God of the Bible or "Jesus." I think there is a difference.
I agree with you on the first part. Of course it is wrong... to those of us who have evolved. Go back barely over 60 years in this country and women were little more than property still. It was teh 2nd World War which changed teh male view when women worked in factories and such. the phrase "rule of thumb" comes from a British law which was only recently stricken from the books that you could not beat your wife with anything wider than your thumb. Right and wrong ARE subjective, even when there are certain truths which we hold self-evident. Such as murder, rape, slavery and the brutalizing of women, and even: forcing religion on someone, yet, that takes place every day in this country. Just the fact that it is God and not god is proof that it is indeed the Judeo-Christian god, or an offshoot (such as Islam) which is being referenced. the Greek and roman gods where referred to in the lower case, since each person worshipped a god of their choosing. The Hindi people also have multiple gods and therefore "god" would also be lower case. I am not here to belabor the point. It really is fact. If you are not a believer in god or God, you are considered less of a person in this country by most. People come right out and say, if you dont believe, then you have no morals, which is patently false. But that is what they believe, and they are in power, therefore they are "right" and I am "wrong" regardless of how I might feel about teh subject. Many of the Mormons on this board should be able to sympathize with me, if they could get past their prejudice. Mormonism has been considered a "cult" and "weird" by the majority for a long long time. Utah would not even be a state if Mormon church leaders had not been forced to give up polygamy. so to the majority, Mormons are no different than I am, even if they refuse to believe it.
PS: I like broccoli on pizza, a white pizza that is.
I'm afraid you've lost me with this one. I think a little more history could put things in perspective, especially with regards to women. For instance, the "rule of thumb" thing is quite the little modern feminist urban legend, and is absolutely false. Wife-beating hasn't been acceptable in British (and thus American) law for at least 400 years, and "rule of thumb" never once referred to it while it was allowed. The most common cause of tarring and feathering in early America was usually vigilante justice to punish a wife-beater.
Incidentally, if you are correct in your atheism, then I will say that you are right even if most people disagree with you. If we take the long view, most humans have believed that the Earth is flat or some other geometry (the history is subtle, because educated people of all stripes have known better for ~2000 years. But I suspect they were outnumbered by people who weren't educated and frankly didn't care.) Does that make them right? When it comes to decisions about sending satellites in orbit, which does NASA use, the flat Earth theory held by most cultures prior to ~1BC, or does it use the spherical earth with Newtonian gravity? If I had gone back in time and been persecuted for thinking the Earth is spherical (much less likely than you probably think, but it's a common example...) would that have made me wrong, or incorrect?
All you are really saying is that opinions which you think are incorrect are held by the majority of the population, and that they treat you differently because of them. Well, that doesn't make them false, it just makes them unpopular. It's like saying that because every culture has a different form of government and different economic system, all forms of government and all economic systems are equal, and the ones that are most common are the best. This is utter nonsense; some forms of government and some economic systems are demonstrably better than others in terms of results, and they are not the most common ones. Being popular does not make something true; it just informs the social impact of the truths when they hit.
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Even in todays religions, for better or worse, people to throw away their own children because they are gay, murder their daughters because they had sex and blow up buildings of people who believe differently. Yes, I am speaking of 9/11, but also of the abortion clinic bombings in Georgia and the Oklahoma City bombing. All of those involved were very religious people who thought they were doing the right thing. Religion, by doctrine, requires you to believe you are better than others who do not share your religion. Cathlics believe they are the only ones going to heaven, Born agains believe only those who have been "born again" are going to heaven. And all of you believe that because I do not believe in any god, I am most certainly the most heinous sinner of them all and am going stright to hell. Many of you probably even believe that because of my atheism, I couldnt possibly have a single moral fiber in my being.
I went a little afield, but mean no disrespect to anyone here. I was merely pointing out that what you say, does not always match up with how you act, this goes for individuals, governments, corporations and religions.
ok. i'll say this again. leave inflammatory comments like these out of forums. nobody has pointed fingers at you here on this thread and said you are "the most heinous sinner of them all and am going straight to hell." Please don't make these kind of accusations and assumptions. I don't care what religion you do or don't consider yourself a part of, there is no need to make these kind of statements and generalizations. they dont help the conversations, and they only serve to make people angry or hurt. Religion does NOT tell people to act better than everyone else. If a person in a religion acts that way, they are going against the principles of their religion. you say you dont mean any disrespect, but your comments show that very disrespect.
Once again, lets keep our comments on topic and without any religion or anti-religion bashing. Topics can be discussed without spiraling into the same hopeless arguments and insults in every freaking thread.
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oh crap, i forgot to answer about Erikson. Sorry!!
start with Gardens of the Moon. It will feel like you are missing a books worth of info, but thats intentional. the learning curve is very steep and chaotic at the beginning, but the books become amazing as you read further on.
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Bookstore guy: Thanks for the Erikson tip, I will order him from my library today :)
As for inflammatory, I really was not being inflammatory. I have heard similar statements throughout my life, and even here on this board.... but again, religion, by nature, is "holier-than-thou" - it must be, if it was not, then it wouldnt be much of a religion. If you believe, as Christianity preaches, that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ, then thats it. Everyone else MUST be wrong. It is a de-facto requirement. The Bible preaches that non-believers are going straight to hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $100. If a religion taught that all other religions were equal, it wouldnt be a religion for very long, whhich is one of the main reasons that Wicca and the Greek/Roman gods either died out or do not do very well. They do not preach superiority.
Direct from the King James Bible:
Timothy 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
The Bible, in many points, specifically calls out those who do not believe in the Judeo-Christian God as less of a person, as one without moral, one with a heart of evil. I do not put these things form as disrespect, just to show the nature and necessity of this particular religion. Most other religions have similar phrases within their texts. How they are interpreted directly impacts how the followers are expected to act. Islam, becuas eit has no central authority, has widely divergent interpretations, which leads many to believe that the path to heaven is through killing non-believers and infidels. Fortunately for me, Christianity as a whole has evolved since the 16th Century, even if a very small number of its followers have not.
Even my religion-or-lack-thereof of atheism breeds a thought of superiority "I am right and you are wrong" which in turn is what led us to this discussion in the first place. Right vs wrong and all things in between.
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John 3:16 -- For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Not only people who don't believe in Jesus. Not only people who don't believe in any god at all. EVERYONE -- including every single christian ever to walk the face of the earth. Everyone naturally has a heart of evil.
As for your first statement; the truth is that some people are wrong. Two plus two does not equal three, the sky is NOT purple, and the moon is not made out of cheese, no matter how much your five-year old son may wish it was so. I can't prove to you that the words of the Bible are true. No human being can do that. Just please consider.
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religions also preach humility, and talk about the consequences of judging others (insert scriptures here). it is a balancing act. we can toss bible passages around all day to no conclusion. What I am tying to be clear on, is that any belief system will say "I'm in the right," but there are ways of expressing it without bordering on hostility. Please not im not just pointing at what i perceived as inflammatory comments in your previous post. I think my personal belief system should be shared with the hope that people will someday come to feel what I feel, just like I'm sure you hope that people will feel what you feel someday. It doesnt mean that everyone thinks im a terrible person because i believe how I do. It doesnt mean everyone thinks you are a terrible sinner because you believe the way you do. every person that points a finger has three pointing back at them. your posts just seem to have this odd tone to them like you feel the cards have been stacked against you. You shouldnt feel that way here - this is a forum to discuss the books Brandon Sanderson is working on.
i just think some of these arguments are getting much too far afield to have any good use on the discussion of AMoL. These types of arguments - the ones that come down to people arguing uselessly over opinions - tend to turn a high number of people away from the discussions, and 3 or4 people end up doing the only "conversing."
reign it in.
and lemme know what you think of Erikson - i might recommend you withhold judgment on it till the first 2 or even 3 books are read - you get a better feel for the style and story that way (i usually dont recommend that for novels, but erikson is an exception to every rule).
Reeves, what do you mean the moon is NOT made of cheese?
Back to AMoL, and what we hope to see from it. I need some character changes. Perrin is killing me. maybe i'll be proven wrong and he'll bite the dust with his annoying wife.
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Oh now you have just gone too far. You can spew religious argument all you want, but I must take offense to your vitriole towards Perrin and Faille. It has always amazed how many people just don't get their part of the story. Faille is awesome! I guess most people are nervous about the prospect of a woman who demands to be equal in every way, and not treated like some delicate flower to be sheltered all the time. I also can't understand why any man would not appreciate a woman who not only doesn't mind you looking at another woman, but requires you to do so. I think the culture clash between the two is fantastic. They are learning as they go. When I hear the argument that Perrin is selfish in risking so much to pursue his wife, I remind them all that Perrin lost HIS ENTIRE FAMILY due to Padain Fain, and has barely had time to truly grieve. Faille is literally all he has left, I defy any of you wouldn't do the same. I also love the whole Wolfbrother concept. You would think his ability to smell emotions would help, but often it makes him even more confused. It's great!
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Oh now you have just gone too far. You can spew religious argument all you want, but I must take offense to your vitriole towards Perrin and Faille. It has always amazed how many people just don't get their part of the story. Faille is awesome! I guess most people are nervous about the prospect of a woman who demands to be equal in every way, and not treated like some delicate flower to be sheltered all the time. I also can't understand why any man would not appreciate a woman who not only doesn't mind you looking at another woman, but requires you to do so. I think the culture clash between the two is fantastic. They are learning as they go. When I hear the argument that Perrin is selfish in risking so much to pursue his wife, I remind them all that Perrin lost HIS ENTIRE FAMILY due to Padain Fain, and has barely had time to truly grieve. Faille is literally all he has left, I defy any of you wouldn't do the same. I also love the whole Wolfbrother concept. You would think his ability to smell emotions would help, but often it makes him even more confused. It's great!
actually none of those are the reasons i dislike Perrin. the only thing keeping me going with him is the wolfbrother concept. and i get that he will risk everything for Faile - i would hope he would. i just find their plotting too straight forward and linear. his deal with Padan Fain was the peak of his story for me...and that was a while ago. that was when the most character growth happened for him. its been too stagnant for me since then. the thing with his family being killed is that it has been several books since it has made a difference - at the time it was huge, but now it feels like an afterthought. Faile is mostly just a personal dislike. she seems like a whiner, and she is the one I see as being on the bad side of selfishness (perrin's doesnt bother me. it's wolf-like).
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I too find Perrin and Faile highly annoying. Perrin because he's just too dumb, why can't he get what his wife wants from him for hundreds of pages? It's in plain sight! Faile because she's got too much of "if you don't know what I'm talking about I'm not going to explain." It's just out of proportion.
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I too find Perrin and Faile highly annoying. Perrin because he's just too dumb, why can't he get what his wife wants from him for hundreds of pages? It's in plain sight! Faile because she's got too much of "if you don't know what I'm talking about I'm not going to explain." It's just out of proportion.
if he was dumb i could accept it. its more of the fact that he actually DOES get it, he just chooses to let it be. i think you have it right though - blown out of proportion. /highfive
i think we need several hundred pages of war, death, and destruction with Mat lucking out the whole way.
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I agree with TMan and the BookstoreGuy. Perrin is just too complacent; it's rather unrealistic. And Faile is annoying because all she ever talks about is the "art" of "raising" a husband and how "delicate" a process it is.…And, yes, death, destruction, and despair would make the last book MUCH more interesting.
PS Did anyone notice my alliteration? Did you like it? ;D 8)
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I think none of you have ever been married lol.
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That's probably a true fact, mtlhddoc2. 8) But in my case, if I had it would have been scary. :o So that's OK. :)
And marriage in Randland is no doubt very different from marriage here in many ways…the least of which being divorce. ;D And I have no doubt that my mom ever kept that much from my dad, or plotted behind his back, or did any of the stuff Faile, in her not-so-infinite wisdom, does.
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I'm married, and I think that Faile is way out of line with all the stuff she does behind Perrin's back. I think the Shaido should have killed her instead of making us go through all the rescue nonsense. Hopefully they will not be so annoying in the last book.
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I think Faile is delusional, personally.
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Faille is a little naive at times, but she is behaving the way a Saldeaen woman is expected to behave. If she was unique, Elyas' advice to Perrin would not have worked. I have posted in other threads about the gift of knowledge a reader gets from seeing multiple viewpoints. However, if you were only allowed to read Perrin's point of view, there's a good chance you wouldn't figure it out any more quickly than he did. Especially if you were brought up to think of women as physically weaker and therefore in need of protection. She hides her spying from Perrin because she knows he will not be rational about it. She is much better at getting information than he is, at being a leader than he is, and he must learn to trust and respect her, which means he must treat her as an equal. You only coddle those you feel are inferior to you, so she is insulted. Just like Mat must learn to treat women as more than objects or nuisances, and just Rand must realize that a women's death is no more grievous than a man's. In essence, they must learn to treat women as equals, just like the women need to learn the same truth about men. Also remember that Perrin's rescue of Faille resulted in the destruction of the Shaido, and yet another alliance with the Seanchan. In spite of his seemingly narrow-minded goal, he succeeded in doing much more. Had he given up on Faille, the Shaido would have continued to create chaos, which only helps the Shadow.
By the way, your assumptions are proving my point. Many people just will not change their opinions no matter the evidence. Perrin and Faille are guilty of this.
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I think most of us were just comparing how FAILE behaves to how women behave in modern society.…
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I actually LIKE Faile, its Baerelain that I cannot stand.... :D (this seems to be the exact opposite attittude which prevails here)
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Yes, I actually respect the character Berelain greatly. I think that most men and women would merely see the pretty face, and assume she is shallow and a typical stereotype (?), but she uses her beauty to manipulate others and gain her own ends in a way that is quite clever.
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If I understand her correctly, her reputation as a tramp has been deliberately cultivated. Yes, she is not a woman to trifle with.
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No, she's not. In fact, if I was a character in the story, and knew the truth about her, I would keep well clear of her.
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I dislike Berelain's personality, but at the same time, I have great respect for her and what she does in order to protect her country. Faile was really cool at first, but now I just find her annoying. Too many long chapters in book 10 without anything really happening....
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Yes, Faile is annoying enough that many more readers would mourn Bela's passing than Faile's. Gawain is another character that has become pretty irritating, due to his stupidity, but i suspect he will redeem himself n the final book. I am afraid that the cost of getting rid of the shaido, namely 200 more damane for the Seanchan may be a lot for the enemys of the Seanchan to pay, but suspect that there will be atruce between Rand and Tuon that will revent that from being a problem. If the Aiel are really as tough as Jordan presents them to be, perhaps they will be able to resist the suldam and their training methods enough to create a problem and help the Seanchan change there policy re leashing channelers. However, fitting it qall into one book will be difficult when all the other unresolved issues remain. Obviously there will be one big reunion scene with Morgaise, Galad, Perrin and Child Byar that will be interesting. Seanchan vs the White tower, Egwene vs Elaida, Matt Thom and Moraine. The golden Craine, The final battle. No wonder it has grown to a probable 2 books.
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So let me see if I understand this correctly. The tramp that is trying to steal Perrin from his wife just for the competition of it and uses her body as a tool to keep Mayene safe is well respected, but the woman who expects to be treated as an equal is irritating? Don't get me wrong, I like Berelein too, but chasing after someone else's husband when he obviously is not interested is just spiteful. She went after Rand first, but he scared the bejesus out of her, so she settled for Perrin.
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So let me see if I understand this correctly. The tramp that is trying to steal Perrin from his wife just for the competition of it and uses her body as a tool to keep Mayene safe is well respected, but the woman who expects to be treated as an equal is irritating? Don't get me wrong, I like Berelein too, but chasing after someone else's husband when he obviously is not interested is just spiteful. She went after Rand first, but he scared the bejesus out of her, so she settled for Perrin.
I think it's more a respect for her cunning than what she DOES.
Personally, i dont like perrin/faile's segments much. Not because i dont like the characters, but as of late they've been rather BORING because not enough has been happening for me. Perrin's segments were my favorites right up until the shaido kidnapping, then it became so slow, i got bored of it.
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No, she's not. In fact, if I was a character in the story, and knew the truth about her, I would keep well clear of her.
I wouldn't, for obvious reasons :P
*smirk*
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Quote from: Shaggy on Yesterday at 05:27:17 PM
No, she's not. In fact, if I was a character in the story, and knew the truth about her, I would keep well clear of her.
I wouldn't, for obvious reasons
*smirk*
I never said I wouldn't look at her; I just said I would avoid her and her treacherous plans.…Then again, maybe the temptation would be too great to resist. 8)
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I suppose I can agree with the slowdown of the Perrin/Faille plotline (he spends a whole book and a half looking for her and planning her escape), yet can't the same thing be said about Mat/Tuon? They spend as much time sitting in a wagon traveling to wherever. Neither really get exciting until KoD. The only thing that keeps Tuon from being insufferable is that she is a new character. She thinks the Shadowspawn are a myth, as well as T'averen, and several other known truths, yet she believes if a hawk dives for a mouse before sundown on the third day of the week, someone is going to die. by the way, how can the high blood possibly be able to master hand to hand combat and swordplay without breaking a nail? That must be a feat in and of itself.
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I suppose I can agree with the slowdown of the Perrin/Faille plotline (he spends a whole book and a half looking for her and planning her escape), yet can't the same thing be said about Mat/Tuon? They spend as much time sitting in a wagon traveling to wherever. Neither really get exciting until KoD. The only thing that keeps Tuon from being insufferable is that she is a new character. She thinks the Shadowspawn are a myth, as well as T'averen, and several other known truths, yet she believes if a hawk dives for a mouse before sundown on the third day of the week, someone is going to die. by the way, how can the high blood possibly be able to master hand to hand combat and swordplay without breaking a nail? That must be a feat in and of itself.
Hmmm...My memory is a tad hazy but I'm not sure the high blood blademasters let their fingernails grow long. They all definately lacquer either one or two of their first nails, depending on rank, but I don't think they all grow them long. High Lady Suroth has them long but I don't think it is required of them..... I should go reread the scene when Rand kills Turak to make sure....
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I suppose I can agree with the slowdown of the Perrin/Faille plotline (he spends a whole book and a half looking for her and planning her escape), yet can't the same thing be said about Mat/Tuon? They spend as much time sitting in a wagon traveling to wherever. Neither really get exciting until KoD. The only thing that keeps Tuon from being insufferable is that she is a new character. She thinks the Shadowspawn are a myth, as well as T'averen, and several other known truths, yet she believes if a hawk dives for a mouse before sundown on the third day of the week, someone is going to die. by the way, how can the high blood possibly be able to master hand to hand combat and swordplay without breaking a nail? That must be a feat in and of itself.
Yeah, Mat and Tuon's sections DO slow down considerably around this time frame, however there's still plenty of inter-party conflict to keep it interesting enough to me. The only real inter-party conflict with perrin is everyone's agitation at not having succeeded yet, and Faile's sections are nothing but her secretly planning and plotting for 1.5~2 books.
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I suppose I can agree with the slowdown of the Perrin/Faille plotline (he spends a whole book and a half looking for her and planning her escape), yet can't the same thing be said about Mat/Tuon? They spend as much time sitting in a wagon traveling to wherever. Neither really get exciting until KoD. The only thing that keeps Tuon from being insufferable is that she is a new character. She thinks the Shadowspawn are a myth, as well as T'averen, and several other known truths, yet she believes if a hawk dives for a mouse before sundown on the third day of the week, someone is going to die. by the way, how can the high blood possibly be able to master hand to hand combat and swordplay without breaking a nail? That must be a feat in and of itself.
Hmmm...My memory is a tad hazy but I'm not sure the high blood blademasters let their fingernails grow long. They all definately lacquer either one or two of their first nails, depending on rank, but I don't think they all grow them long. High Lady Suroth has them long but I don't think it is required of them..... I should go reread the scene when Rand kills Turak to make sure....
I'm pretty sure it mentions that Turak has long nails when Fain goes in to meet him, but I don't think it's mentioned during the fight with Rand. That is a good question. Maybe RJ just forgot about that detail?
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Someone over at Dragonmount had a good observation about Perrin in that the Faile rescue was long but was a great chance to set up his alliance with the Seanchan. Mat has also done the same by impressing Tuon and her rescuers with his skill in battle. I also doubt they are looking forward to battles with Rand and even Ituralde has made an impression. I'll bet they think very differently about the military leaders than before they sailed and working with them at the Last Battle should be easier now.
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by the way, how can the high blood possibly be able to master hand to hand combat and swordplay without breaking a nail?
I believe somewhere in the series, there was a section that mentioned a member of the High Blood with long fingernails either holding a fork or other eating utensil, a dagger or a sword, and I'm pretty sure RJ talked briefly on how delicately their hold had to be, and how the ends of the fingers were used most. Not 100% certain, though.
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My main frustration with the Perrin/Faile Sections were that they didn't really seem all that necessary at the time. I could see how the Mat/Tuon sections fit in. After thinking about it, Perrin's current position puts him right where he needs to be to meet up with Galad and the Whitecloaks, and he does have the alliance with the Seanchan going for him. So I might like it better the second time through. Actually, I did like it better the second time through, come to think of it. I might like it better the 3rd time through? Something like that....
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After realizing how perfectly all the pieces of RJ's story fit together, I'm beginning to wonder if he plays chess.…
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After realizing how perfectly all the pieces of RJ's story fit together, I'm beginning to wonder if he plays chess.…
No, stones. ;)
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Quote from: Shaggy on February 06, 2009, 09:31:03 PM
After realizing how perfectly all the pieces of RJ's story fit together, I'm beginning to wonder if he plays chess.…
No, stones.
HAHA good one!!!
Actually, that gave me a thought…wouldn't it be pretty cool if BS/Harriet/someone completed the rules of stones (if RJ hasn't already) and had it made as a real board game?? Wouldn't that be awesome??
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Quote from: Shaggy on February 06, 2009, 09:31:03 PM
After realizing how perfectly all the pieces of RJ's story fit together, I'm beginning to wonder if he plays chess.…
No, stones.
HAHA good one!!!
Actually, that gave me a thought…wouldn't it be pretty cool if BS/Harriet/someone completed the rules of stones (if RJ hasn't already) and had it made as a real board game?? Wouldn't that be awesome??
I always thought of stones and being similar to Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(board_game)), but i never put much thought into it.
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I feel stupid…what's Go??
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I feel stupid…what's Go??
Hint: the word Go was underlined in my post because it's a link to wikipedia explaining about Go :P
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Hehe :-[…right.
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Hehe :-[…right.
after a quick google search, WOTMania.org claims that stones is almost exactly like go.
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Do you happen to know if RJ ever clarified the comparison or not?
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I believe he did.
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OK; I guess you're right then. :D 8)
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sort of off topic, but i figure since we're talking about WOT here:
EA Partners with red eagle for WOT Games (including planned MMORPG) (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6203233.html?tag=latestheadlines;title;1)
Also, red eagle mentioned that there will be at least 3 movies based on the WOT books, more if they do well.
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http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6399.0
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http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=6399.0
oh snap! i was beaten to the punch :O
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I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope they don't screw up the movies like they did with Eragon.…
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ok take this as you will but this is what i see happening with rand and defeating the DO so the wheel can keep turning. with the prophesies (can't spell shhh) rand knows that to live he must die and he accepts that. Now, lets face it rand has turned into a creep he hears voices has two half-healed, never healing wounds on his side, is missing a hand and has forgoten who he was. He's just a cold hard killing machine that most people in the book still believe is doomed to go mad. So, to live he must die... does anyone else remeber lan teaching rand the sword move called sheathing the sword. The one that leaves you open to attack but in turn leaves your opponent open. now i know this has been used before when rand faced an image of the DO above falme but rand didn't exactly die. can anyone else see rand using this to defeat he DO. He dies and then perhaps is brought back by the creator or through a body swap with mordin which many people have suggeted. that takes care of the literal interpretation of the prophesy but what about the symbolic. in rands current state he isnt exactly living, hes got a crippled body and mind and has become cold and hard not what he once was. for him to live, body and mind healthy, the old rand needs to die and be reincarnated
thats what i think might and could happen lemme know what ya think :D
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Hehe :-[…right.
after a quick google search, WOTMania.org claims that stones is almost exactly like go.
I love GO and I'm semi good at it. I would be ranked at maybe a 15-20kyu. xD
I really SHOULD read the WoT series since Brandon is writing the last one, and I want to read that, but I'm almost positive I would be TOTALLY lost if I hadn't read the others. ha ha.
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Hehe :-[…right.
after a quick google search, WOTMania.org claims that stones is almost exactly like go.
I love GO and I'm semi good at it. I would be ranked at maybe a 15-20kyu. xD
I really SHOULD read the WoT series since Brandon is writing the last one, and I want to read that, but I'm almost positive I would be TOTALLY lost if I hadn't read the others. ha ha.
Oh, you certainly would. There's A LOT of background to get it to the point it's currently at. I enjoy Go, too, but I'm terrible at it. I've only played a few times, to be fair, and I'm not the best with the rules on it still.
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Hehe :-[…right.
after a quick google search, WOTMania.org claims that stones is almost exactly like go.
I love GO and I'm semi good at it. I would be ranked at maybe a 15-20kyu. xD
I really SHOULD read the WoT series since Brandon is writing the last one, and I want to read that, but I'm almost positive I would be TOTALLY lost if I hadn't read the others. ha ha.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you would be lost.
It's roughly on the order of imagining an Inuit hunter-gatherer from 1300 AD being dropped into a lecture on advanced imaging techniques using evanescent microwave frequencies, and expecting them to make any sense out of what is being said.
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Hehe :-[…right.
after a quick google search, WOTMania.org claims that stones is almost exactly like go.
I love GO and I'm semi good at it. I would be ranked at maybe a 15-20kyu. xD
I really SHOULD read the WoT series since Brandon is writing the last one, and I want to read that, but I'm almost positive I would be TOTALLY lost if I hadn't read the others. ha ha.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you would be lost.
It's roughly on the order of imagining an Inuit hunter-gatherer from 1300 AD being dropped into a lecture on advanced imaging techniques using evanescent microwave frequencies, and expecting them to make any sense out of what is being said.
Also a great idea for a sitcom.
Back on topic, though....What does everyone think is going to happen to Elaida? :O
She's obviously not black, but being manipulated by them. (or at least was, not sure about now)
Think she'll eventually "see the light" or will her and her followers inadvertently help the DO
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Hehe :-[…right.
after a quick google search, WOTMania.org claims that stones is almost exactly like go.
I love GO and I'm semi good at it. I would be ranked at maybe a 15-20kyu. xD
I really SHOULD read the WoT series since Brandon is writing the last one, and I want to read that, but I'm almost positive I would be TOTALLY lost if I hadn't read the others. ha ha.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you would be lost.
It's roughly on the order of imagining an Inuit hunter-gatherer from 1300 AD being dropped into a lecture on advanced imaging techniques using evanescent microwave frequencies, and expecting them to make any sense out of what is being said.
Also a great idea for a sitcom.
Back on topic, though....What does everyone think is going to happen to Elaida? :O
She's obviously not black, but being manipulated by them. (or at least was, not sure about now)
Think she'll eventually "see the light" or will her and her followers inadvertently help the DO
Elaida.... >:( If all goes well hopefully she will have a run in with the gholam! She is seriously annoying and probably my least favorite character!.....I really don't think she will ever be helpful in any way. That said, if she ever hopes to redeem herself she would have to do the following two things:
1. Aknowledge Egwene as the true Amrylin
2. Kill Alvairin(spelling?)
I don't see either of them happening so I'll just have to go on hating her. I can see her launching one last attempt at capturing Rand and causing the unecessary deaths of more than a few Aes Sedai. Leading to Rand sending Logain to aide the "rebel" Aes Sedai take back the White Tower. Which he will because he's freakin awesome!
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I posted this reply on Dragonmount awhile back, and it fits pretty well here :D
Rand is going to say something along the lines of "It's time to finally finish my journey" and travel to Tar Valon with a bunch of Aiel and Ashaman and make Elaida swear fealty.
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2. Kill Alvairin(spelling?)
I'm pretty sure that, given the chance, she would kill her.
It's just that, at current, her going missing might seem a bit suspicious on Elaida's part. (and she wants her to suffer)
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Elaida is a fool, and I believe her biggest mistake was capturing Egwene. Egwene is going to take the tower from her through sheer force of will. She is already turning the Novice and Accepted, and she had some Aes Sedai on her side as well. Meanwhile, the rebel Aes Sedai are going to begin bonding with the good Ash'man, while all the red sisters who went to see Taim are screwed.
Something I have noticed: With all the searching for men who can channel that's been going on, they haven't found any Aiel. I know the ones with the spark go into the blight to die fighting the shadow, but some of those who can learn to channel must exist.
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I doubt any of the Asha'man have dared to show up in an Aiel camp asking for volunteers, even if they thought to try. I think their recruiting effort has been directed almost entirely towards civilian populations in the Wetlands.
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Elaida isn't a fool. Her ability to bring down Siuan proves that she has a head. She's just ambitious and misguided.
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She is proud, arrogant, prejudiced, utterly blind to the possibility she could ever be wrong, and wrong. The combination leads to quite a number of very stupid acts with no signs of change, ever.
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She is proud, arrogant, prejudiced, utterly blind to the possibility she could ever be wrong, and wrong. The combination leads to quite a number of very stupid acts with no signs of change, ever.
Perhaps if she was put in her place, shown the greater power of her superiors, and given orders she could be put to some use.…
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Some of those actions she took because Alvarin said to take them even if she didn't think they were a good idea. Until eventually she had the idea that perhaps Alvarin was BA and then picked out some AS to sniff out the BA.
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Shard, please take pity on a young soul and define your acronyms. Por favor.
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Just guessing:
Black Ajah
Aes Sedai
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Hehe right. I feel stupid. *smacks forehead*
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I am truly happy Brandon Sanderson was picked to finish Amol otherwise i wouldn't ever have been introduced to him! I mean this is the best publicity an author could ever dream of (in this genre atleast). And while i believe the Jim Rigney was the modern Tolkien, I must say thand Brandon is much more original, i tell all the nerds willing to listen about him becaus of it. I love his works, especially the magic systems.
On a different note Rand is one big fool, and i love him for it! He's so human and is in a constant developmental process, his mistakes make him my favorite of all the characters.
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Some of those actions she took because Alvarin said to take them even if she didn't think they were a good idea. Until eventually she had the idea that perhaps Alvarin was BA and then picked out some AS to sniff out the BA.
Actually, Elaida was just trying to get Alviarin in trouble for countermanding her orders. The Aes Sedai she went to, Pevara, thought Elaida was trying to imply a search for the Black Ajah without saying it. Of course, Alviarin should get caught in both cases.
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Some of those actions she took because Alvarin said to take them even if she didn't think they were a good idea. Until eventually she had the idea that perhaps Alvarin was BA and then picked out some AS to sniff out the BA.
Actually, Elaida was just trying to get Alviarin in trouble for countermanding her orders. The Aes Sedai she went to, Pevara, thought Elaida was trying to imply a search for the Black Ajah without saying it. Of course, Alviarin should get caught in both cases.
Yeah I guess your right it's more like Elaida is pulling a homer, catching the crook without actually trying to catch one. I am hoping for some public trails of Black Ajah's and Forsaken I so want to see some executions *heh*
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But doesn't Alavrin imply that Eldia might know that she is indeed black ajah when she excepts the punishment to become accepted again... Just a thought
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But doesn't Alavrin imply that Eldia might know that she is indeed black ajah when she excepts the punishment to become accepted again... Just a thought
You're thinking of the wrong person. Alviarin is still accounted a full Aes Sedai, just no longer Elaida's Keeper. It's someone else that got demoted to Accepted.
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That said Aes Sedai ran away.
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Wasn't it like Shemerin or something? Something with an 'S-H' at the beginning.
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Wasn't it like Shemerin or something? Something with an 'S-H' at the beginning.
I believe you are referring to Sheriam. She is the Keeper of the Chronicles for Egwene.
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Quote from: Shaggy on Today at 09:47:53 AM
Wasn't it like Shemerin or something? Something with an 'S-H' at the beginning.
I believe you are referring to Sheriam. She is the Keeper of the Chronicles for Egwene.
No, I'm not, actually. I know who Sheriam is; the person I am referring to is the Aes Sedai that was demoted back down to Accepted by Elaida.
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Quote from: Shaggy on Today at 09:47:53 AM
Wasn't it like Shemerin or something? Something with an 'S-H' at the beginning.
I believe you are referring to Sheriam. She is the Keeper of the Chronicles for Egwene.
No, I'm not, actually. I know who Sheriam is; the person I am referring to is the Aes Sedai that was demoted back down to Accepted by Elaida.
Ahhh...my bad. You were right in the first place it's Shemerin....Elaida never demotes Alviarin, she sends her to Silviana, mistress of novices, for punishment.
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Quote from: Shaggy on Today at 10:47:04 AM
Quote
Quote from: Shaggy on Today at 09:47:53 AM
Wasn't it like Shemerin or something? Something with an 'S-H' at the beginning.
I believe you are referring to Sheriam. She is the Keeper of the Chronicles for Egwene.
No, I'm not, actually. I know who Sheriam is; the person I am referring to is the Aes Sedai that was demoted back down to Accepted by Elaida.
Ahhh...my bad. You were right in the first place it's Shemerin....Elaida never demotes Alviarin, she sends her to Silviana, mistress of novices, for punishment.
No problem.
Thought it was something like that.…
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For some reason i had those to being one person... Its been 2 years since i've done a reread, I guess I should get started before Amol is released.
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You could also start your re-read a month or two before AMoL is published; then by the time you're done, the paperback might be out. Just a thought.
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It only takes me about 3 months to do a reread but nice try shaggy. Not to mention I've been waiting for the realease since KoD hardback was out. (I read that one in 2.5 days)
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Well some people read slightly slower than the speed of light, so…yeah. (jk)
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I don't remember how long Knife of Dreams took me, but I finished Winter's Heart in a single day. Of course I didn't do much of anything else that day except eat and use a toilet, and it was about midnight when I finished, but something about that book just made all the other Christmas presents I'd unwrapped that morning seem uninteresting by comparison... ;)
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Ummm ok. Let's ignore that and try not to think about douglas and the toilet (just kidding 8)) and get back to AMoL.
I hope Elaida is made like property of Tuon or something. That'd be unrealistic, but…cool.
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That's actually not too far fetched, considering Egwene's dream about the Seanchan attacking the White Tower.
Hmm, that brings up another possibility for the Black Ajah hunt - turn all the Black Aes Sedai into damane instead of stilling or executing them. ;D
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ok heres my 2 cents.. the DO's prison has to be remade like new or the wheel will be broken, there are 7 spokes of the WoT, 7 ages, at certain times things have to be a certain way. It has to be remade completely and stay remade long enough for people to forget the DO exists by the time the AoL (or its equivelent) comes around again. Then the hole can be made and then sealed and then the seals can weaken etc etc in a never ending circle. Thats how the DO intends to break the WoT by escaping and not being sealed when it becomes time when he should be sealed. Thats all explained by that crazy old dude at the school in cairhein lol.
I also think rand has to sacrifice himself in order to accomplish it but he will be tied to the wheel and will continue to live on in the world of dreams to be reborn again, as opposed to the DO winning and the wheel being broken so all the heroes are dead forver, never to be reborn. The HoV could have something to do with it, like rand dying b4 the job is done and matt blowing the horn and he comes back and finishes it. Or it could be the whole body swap thing, it would be funny if he managed to swap bodies with moridin at the last second so his body died but his mind lived on
Im kinda with Perrin dying as well, and of course becoming 1 of the new heroes tied to the horn. faile could possibly do something really great to avenge his death the way saldean women are known to pick up their fallen husbands swords in battle (hopefully she dies after it as well though, she irritates me). and possibly aviendah dying although i like her she just seems to be the one most likely to jump in guns blazing (metaphorically speaking of course) when she feels rand die/dying, she is still a maiden at heart after all.
Nynaeve and Lan will both survive. I think theres something to the 3rd ring or the ter'angreal used when raised to accepted. In Egwenes she was Amyrlin and now she is although under slightly different circumstances. and in Nynaeve's her n Lan had rebuilt Malkier. The things they see in the rings definately dont all come from imagination coz thats where Egwene learnt about the 13 channelers n 13 Myrddraal thing so I think they could be some kinda variations of the future or something close to it.
And i hope something really horrible happens to Elaida, oohhh i hope Egwene gets her on a leash lol Reading anything to do with her infuriates me just by her ignorance
ok that was alot more than 2 cents but anyway ;D
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That is alot for 2 cents, I think you owe me more.
Anyways, I agree that the dark ones prison will have to be resealed completely and not just patched in order for the wheel to continue on. I am wondering how this will be done. It is stated many times that the creator bound the dark one in his prison. If this is true then wouldn't the creator have to rebind him. If thats the case we are out of luck because the creator does not take a dirrect hand in events.
I believe that it is also possible, if unlikely, that they will find some way to "break" the wheel, or maybe I should say "bend", that will end the cycle of the battle witht he Dark One and start a new story that will be repeated over and over again. :P
Either way I do not think Rand will die. I think just the voice in his head will die. If he dies it will be more like a Harry Potter death in which he dies but not really. :P
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Either way I do not think Rand will die. I think just the voice in his head will die. If he dies it will be more like a Harry Potter death in which he dies but not really. :P
i was thinking of a Potter-esque death as well but for me that would be too predictable. I think it needs to be different, Theres the whole thing about his blood on the rocks of SG so theres gonna at least be some serious bleeding if he wants to win, but from the start I never really took that to mean he died although thats what he seemed to think.
Anyways, I agree that the dark ones prison will have to be resealed completely and not just patched in order for the wheel to continue on. I am wondering how this will be done. It is stated many times that the creator bound the dark one in his prison. If this is true then wouldn't the creator have to rebind him. If thats the case we are out of luck because the creator does not take a dirrect hand in events.
There has to be a way for it to be done, this isnt the 1st turning of the wheel so it had to have been done before although too long ago for even the slightest memory to remain. "The wheel of time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again". Maybe they find a way to do it, maybe the creator does lend a hand (there was the voice at Tarwins Gap to kinda show that he/she/it is paying some kinda attention) but either way its been done on all the other turns of the wheel so it has to be done again somehow
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Rand is my favorite character, primarly to his developmental process, but I'm not so sure that him living makes a good ending... Sure if he dies all be as close to tears as any book/movie can get me (probably more) but doesn't it cheapen the price of salvation? Anyway if Rand lives someone big has got to die!
P.S. I love Faile, I mean you have to have a twit everyone hates Mr. Rigney did that and she is a ******* (fill it in however you like). It's not human if everyone is likeable....
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There has to be a way for it to be done, this isnt the 1st turning of the wheel so it had to have been done before although too long ago for even the slightest memory to remain. "The wheel of time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again". Maybe they find a way to do it, maybe the creator does lend a hand (there was the voice at Tarwins Gap to kinda show that he/she/it is paying some kinda attention) but either way its been done on all the other turns of the wheel so it has to be done again somehow
I always figured that the voices was our first instance of seeing Rand hearing the voice of Lews Therin.
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That voice being Lews Therin doesn't make any sense, though, it just doesn't match at all with any of the kinds of things he says or how he says them. The subject matter, coherency, volume, style, etc. are all completely different from Lews Therin and it's way too early - Rand hasn't channeled more than half a dozen times, ever, by that point. Plus there's the whole "I can't interfere" part of it and dumping all the responsibility on the "chosen one". That voice being the creator is the only explanation of it I've ever heard that makes any sense.
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*runs off to check the book before saying anything*
the voice he hears at tarwins gap presents alot like the voice of the DO when the forsaken go to SG, with it being all in capitals and not from shouting just coz of the sheer force of the voice and with the way it vibrates his skull. The fact hes not at SG and the fact its basically saying hes the 1 chosen to defeat the DO i think we can cross him off the list so that pretty much just leaves the creator. unless theres some other god-like powers that we haven't been told about lol
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the voice he hears at tarwins gap presents alot like the voice of the DO when the forsaken go to SG, with it being all in capitals and not from shouting just coz of the sheer force of the voice and with the way it vibrates his skull. The fact hes not at SG and the fact its basically saying hes the 1 chosen to defeat the DO i think we can cross him off the list so that pretty much just leaves the creator. unless theres some other god-like powers that we haven't been told about lol
Or he's just insane.
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Too early for that, it's only the fourth or fifth time he channels. If he started going insane that quickly he would have gotten a lot worse before Winter's Heart than he did.
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Too early for that, it's only the fourth or fifth time he channels. If he started going insane that quickly he would have gotten a lot worse before Winter's Heart than he did.
Maybe he's not insane 'cause of the channeling. Maybe he just has a disease.
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Now you're just arguing for the sake of the argument.
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Too early for that, it's only the fourth or fifth time he channels. If he started going insane that quickly he would have gotten a lot worse before Winter's Heart than he did.
Maybe he's not insane 'cause of the channeling. Maybe he just has a disease.
yes and maybe the 1 of the pink psychiatrist ajah will prescribe him some risperidone and cure him ::) maybe hes not really the dragon reborn and hes just suffering from delusions of grandeur
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I hate to tell you it's Risperdal....im the voice in your head .... i should know my weakness.... woops said too much!
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Now you're just arguing for the sake of the argument.
Or to show all possibilities and eliminate them.
Padywhak– maybe. You never know.
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I hate to tell you it's Risperdal....im the voice in your head .... i should know my weakness.... woops said too much!
risperdal is the brand name of the product lol risperidone is the drugs actual name ;D
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OK…thanks for that…kind of unrelated though.…
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I'm allowed to make mistakes...one of the privliges of good looks... ;)
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That is a very shallow and narrow-minded point of view, I think. And a false one, that also holds little or no importance to any of us because our only means of communication is through a computer, where your 'good looks' count for nothing.
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Its called a sense of humor... i was blowing off a mistake on my part...geez i thought it was obvious (in addition you could say you believe it to be false but you can't prove it as you previously mentioned, don't try to be smart you come off stupid by doing so).
Anyways Eldia is a bitch in nature-i dont believe she is evil- her dispostion just sucks!
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I think the wheel of time is a great series. This last book has got to be amazing, I can't wait for it to come out. Anyways, I hope not all the characters die, just maybe some of the lesser liked characters. The way Jordan has developed his books amazes me, I am really interested to read how it will end.
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Its called a sense of humor... i was blowing off a mistake on my part...geez i thought it was obvious (in addition you could say you believe it to be false but you can't prove it as you previously mentioned, don't try to be smart you come off stupid by doing so).
As was previously discussed in several different threads, sarcasm is a rather pointless tool to use over the Internet. Half of sarcasm is your tone, how you say it and facial expression. So sarcasm is (sometimes) difficult to pick up over the Internet. The same thing goes for certain kinds of humor. And the ' ;)' that you put allowed me to pick up that you were kidding, but you obviously thought that had some bearing in the real world.
I don't need to try to be smart–it comes rather naturally to me. For you, on the other hand…I fear that a strong effort just might be necessary. And aside from your 'sense of humor,' I think I have also picked up on what type of person you are, which may not be a godo thing for you.
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I would rather not bicker with cretins over the net... you are obviously trying to impress persons you will never meet. GROW UP! and anyways this tangent is off topic started by you antagonizing me for no other reason than your simplemindedness. Get back on the topic which i believe to be AMoL not bickering with random people.
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Hey Kaz, don't worry, the sarcasm was fairly obvious, and it was funny.
sorry Shaggy, you did miss the point of it, and I'm not under the impression that he thought looks had real bearing in making up for mistakes at all, it was all a joke.
But then again, maybe only us good looking guys understand our jokes ;) (btw Shaggy, this is a joke here)
P.S. Shaggy, sorry if this comes across as rude or mocking you for not getting it, I'm just asking you to think about what you say and try not to be too rude before responding with those types of comments.
Back on Topic: I definitely think that was the Creator talking to Rand at Tarwin's Gap, nothing else makes much sense at all, except for Padywhak's theory, that one pretty credible. ::)
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Yeah the last thing we want is this thread to turn into a flame war and having it locked. We don't all have to be friends but we can be civil.
As for the Voice heard at Tarwin Gap I'm starting to wonder about it being the DO. I mean if he is challenging Rand to try and do what he needs to do as opposed to just giving up or giving in to the DO. It would be interesting if it was the Creator as that would be the only instance of him saying anything or doing anything. It is odd though what was Rand attempting that he shouldn't attempt yet?
If the Creator was judging Rand not ready to face the DO yet how will Rand know he is ready? Will there be some divine sign or something? I really did like the thought Rand was having about the last three seals "It would only take one person with a hammer to smash all three". It made me think of Perrin and what if they declared their readiness by smashing the three seals? Afterall the rubble needs to be cleared before the Bore can be remade again or resealed.
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Well it was the first time that anyone had used untainted saidin since the Breaking. That might have caught his attention.
Of course, you can easily ask why all male channelers aren't hearing the Creator now that they are using clean saidin. I can only think of two answers:
1.) It was a one time thing, a special "revelation" to the Dragon who was using clean saidin for the first time.
2.) Saidin was not cleansed. In the books RJ has been careful to point out that no living male channelers besides Rand and the Forsaken have actually touched clean saidin. For Rand he hardly knew what he was doing, and the Forsaken would hardly come forward with the information.
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Well it was the first time that anyone had used untainted saidin since the Breaking. That might have caught his attention.
Of course, you can easily ask why all male channelers aren't hearing the Creator now that they are using clean saidin. I can only think of two answers:
1.) It was a one time thing, a special "revelation" to the Dragon who was using clean saidin for the first time.
2.) Saidin was not cleansed. In the books RJ has been careful to point out that no living male channelers besides Rand and the Forsaken have actually touched clean saidin. For Rand he hardly knew what he was doing, and the Forsaken would hardly come forward with the information.
You're forgetting that Rand has memories from LTT. LTT claims, from Rand's POV, that Saidin has been cleansed. Good enough for me.
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One final point in this argument: Kaz, if you want to end an argument, it is best not to insult other people. If you are trying to end a fight, that's probably not the path to take. I apologize for being rude; I see that it was a joke, and that I reacted badly. My apologies.
On topic–what is 'LTT?'
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Lews Therin Telamon.
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Oh, thanks.
You're forgetting that Rand has memories from LTT. LTT claims, from Rand's POV, that Saidin has been cleansed. Good enough for me.
But isn't LTT insane?
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Yes, but I don't think his insanity is of a kind likely to affect his ability to notice the taint, or to make him lie about it.
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I don't think it's really a matter of intention–he is quite likely delusional. However, I'm not saying that you're wrong–I actually agree with you. I'm just saying that maybe it's better not to base that conclusion on the fact that LTT thinks so.
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I think the use of the Eye of the World pure saidin may be the ticket there as to why the Creator chose to speak at that moment. It just seems interesting that for a Deity that tends to take a back seat to events he takes a hand here to stop Rand from going to far.
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I agree with Shaggy, Lews Therin is not a very viable source due to the whole insane, destroying the world shtick. If I had some disease that made me crazy, and another more crazy guy who's been dead for thousands of years and is suddenly talking in my head told me it was cured, I would probably think twice. Or ask for a sandwich.
I also agree with Shard, I think the Eye of the World's Saidin has to do with it, also, I think Rand's sudden power was going to his head, and he was going to challenge the Dark One prematurely, and probably die, so I think that might be why the Creator intervened.
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the eye had to be more than just pure saidan as Aginor was so hyped up about touching it. The black threads that attach someone to the dark one (end of book 4 asomdeans get cut) allow access to pure saidan. The eye had to be something more... even if it wasn't said directly.
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Well the Eye was a Well so that would add massive boost of power, he probably felt that if he could get all of it before Rand, he could kill Rand. Which is probably what the DO didn't want and thus another reason he only got a "second chance".
Not to mention that there is also the Horn, Banner and Seal in there as well.
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Shaggy and Hampster,
I don't think LTT is quite as insane as all that. In fact, I'm not certain what he is, exactly, although I tend to believe that he's simply Rand's attempt to deal with having LTT's memories in his head. Same memories+same soul=similar personality (shaped by the new personality and the taint as well, though). But as one of the few people around who remember touching Saidin without the taint, and given just how important that would be to him, I still tend to believe him.
Also note that other male channellers believe that the taint has been removed, even ones who know nothing about the cleansing. Especially note that some of the Aes Sedia bonded to Asha'man were convinced. I think that all together, this is about as close as we can get in-story to having the author come out and just say it. What is the point of arguing further? There's zero evidence that Saidin hasn't been cleansed, and lots of witnesses that it has.
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Didn't one of the female forsaken question whether the male forsaken would be as welcomed by the DO now that the reason for there bonding is no longer necessary? That would mean that the forsaken also beleive that the taint is gone. I am not sure how they would know without having to touch the power through the taint though. I am pretty sure I remember that but I havent read the books in a while. I need to finish my current book so I can start the reread.
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The Eye of the World was a well of pure Saidin. While it's true that the black threads allow Forsaken to channel clean Saidin, they also allow the DO to keep track of his Chosen. If Aginor had access to the Eye, he could really further his own agenda. And it is debatable as to whether the Eye could act as an angreal or even a sa'angreal.
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The only 2 we know for a fact will survive TG is Mat and Tuon :) RJ did have plans for a book about them several years after TG...but he didnt start it before he past away :(
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the eye had to be more than just pure saidan as Aginor was so hyped up about touching it. The black threads that attach someone to the dark one (end of book 4 asomdeans get cut) allow access to pure saidan. The eye had to be something more... even if it wasn't said directly.
I'm pretty sure all the hype about the Eye was because using pure saidin through the Dark One has one huge drawback: its through the Dark One. Every time someone uses saidin through DO, he knows. Presumably he knows what the channeler in question is doing with it as well. Its the way he keeps track of the males, some of which may only have joined him to escape the madness. Also, presumably at any time the DO can cut off that connection and withdraw clean saidin from the channeler, leaving them open to the taint.
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I think all the hype about the Eye of the World was just that - hype. If the amount of power there were truly enough to free the Dark One completely, as Moiraine says, the Dark One's followers would have freed him completely with trivial ease back in the War of Power. It is also clearly far from enough to fill all the Dragon Reborn's needs until he can cleanse Saidin. The pool of power itself is really just a red herring and a unique way to guard the real purpose of the Eye - the Horn of Valere, one of the Seals, and the dragon banner. It cannot be cleared by any means save a man channeling, and clearing it requires a man of such strength that few besides the true Dragon Reborn would be capable of it. Thus, the three items guarded by the pool are safe until either the Dragon Reborn or one of the Forsaken comes.
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The pool of power itself is really just a red herring and a unique way to guard the real purpose of the Eye - the Horn of Valere, one of the Seals, and the dragon banner.
I've never understood why the banner was so valuable - couldn't (and didn't) false Dragons just make their own banners? I mean, I know this one was special, seeming to be made of one piece and not woven or printed, but really what difference does that make? Did ordinary people see it and somehow know instantly that Rand was the true Dragon?
The Horn I understand, and the Seal to some extent (although it seems like not all the Seals were similarly guarded - and this one got shattered despite its hiding place, so I don't really see the point), but I really don't get why the banner was worth hiding with those other items.
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Its the way he keeps track of the males, some of which may only have joined him to escape the madness.
All of the male Forsaken were sealed with the DO (sans Ishmael) prior to the counterstroke that tainted Saidin, so they wouldn't have joined him to escape the madness.
I've thought about the Eye a bit as I've been rereading the entire series. The Eye was distilled, pure Saidin, somehow created after the breaking. Remember, an already hurt Someshta was sent to guard the Horn and the Dragon Banner in the vision that Rand has through his ancestors eyes while in Ruidean. Present-day people assumed the Eye was probably meant to be used in the last battle - but as Moiraine says - "But, the Horn is supposed to be used at the last battle, and the Eye was concealing it." Thus the Eye had to be used prior to the last battle. The world faced some extremely dire circumstances in that first book. The trollocs coming out of the Blight were about to overrun the borderlands. Had Rand not used the Eye to destroy that army, the light might not have had a chance. And based on what Rand did, I'd say the Eye functioned as a massive Sa'angreal. So in some way, we might argue that the last battle has begun (and that it actually is a war), and that the first move of the shadow was countered by Rand. The subsequent events are simply more skirmishes leading up to the final battle.
The sad part is, we may never know exactly the purpose and point behind the Eye of the World.
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Also note that other male channellers believe that the taint has been removed, even ones who know nothing about the cleansing. Especially note that some of the Aes Sedia bonded to Asha'man were convinced. I think that all together, this is about as close as we can get in-story to having the author come out and just say it. What is the point of arguing further? There's zero evidence that Saidin hasn't been cleansed, and lots of witnesses that it has.
I'm not saying that Saidin isn't clean; I'm just saying that what LTT says isn't very good evidence to support the fact.
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The banner's use becomes evident I think in tGH when Artur Hawkwing asks for it, the False dragons may have made banners but they were as the Dragons themselves, False. The True Banner of Light must be used to herald the Dragon, Rand al'Thor and the Hero's of the Horn also require it's use.
As for the Seal yes it broke, as a sign that they failed to protect it. As Ishy wasn't killed only mortally wounded and had to spend time recovering. I'm not sure what it is during the tEotW and tGH battles that destroys the Seal and during tDR other then Ishy's death that seems to keep it whole. The only thing I can think of is the Ishy being dead factor. Somehow those first two meetings Ishy pulls some sort of victory for the Dark Side despite being severaly injured and the armies of Trollocks and Seanchan pushed back, respectively in each book.
All we know is that the Aes Sedai of old safeguarded a pure amount of Saidin along with the Banner, seal and Horn. Then the story became legend which became Myth.
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Also note that other male channellers believe that the taint has been removed, even ones who know nothing about the cleansing. Especially note that some of the Aes Sedia bonded to Asha'man were convinced. I think that all together, this is about as close as we can get in-story to having the author come out and just say it. What is the point of arguing further? There's zero evidence that Saidin hasn't been cleansed, and lots of witnesses that it has.
I'm not saying that Saidin isn't clean; I'm just saying that what LTT says isn't very good evidence to support the fact.
Why not? The rest of his memories have been accurate. The hysteria and emotions seem to be less than sane, and can probably be attributed to Rand's firm denial that he is LTT combined with LTT's last memories, but the actual factual information from LTT has been correct.
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And LTT sure hasn't forgotten how to channel. We can see that the few times that he takes control of the power before Rand can stop him.
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And LTT sure hasn't forgotten how to channel. We can see that the few times that he takes control of the power before Rand can stop him.
How is this relevant?
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Well, if he remembers how to channel, he probably remembers what saidin felt like when it was clean, and he knows the difference between that and the tainted version. It seems to me that his testimony is fairly reliable.
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I wouldn't base my thoughts and decisions on what a madman thinks–to me, it's just not logical.
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Madmen are not completely irrational. It's not logical to discount everything they say, but you have to exercise judgment in the areas where you know they are mad.
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If a person is mad in certain areas, I'd be pretty careful basing anything on what they say, even if it's not in those particular *areas.*
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Being careful and a blanket decision to ignore everything they say are different things. Also, everyone is irrational about one thing or another.
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*Applause* Ookla is completely right on humanity... we are a bunch of irrational teenagers who never really grow up we mask it with, as W. says, edumacationism. Anyway LTT is sometimes surprisingly sane... and i think his madness is a way to escape the guilt of killing his wife.
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Well, his madness caused him to kill his wife, so it can't entirely be that.
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Well, he could actually be less mad now than when he killed his wife. In the prologue to TEoTW, Ishmael heals him so he can understand what he's done. I don't know how that works with him dying and everything. In any case, I think saidin is probably clean now, and Lews Therin seems to be fairly reliable about most power-related things.
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I'm sorry but I don't actually remember what LTT said about saidin after it was cleansed. Can someone provide a quote or summary?
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REALLY late to this discussion and not sure if my theory is someone elses or not (read upto page 8 before posting this).
Rand is meant to live and too die, Logain gains glory by walking over Rand's body, three women are crying over Rand's body and the Seanchen women who's name slips my mind is to help Rand die.
My theory is this.
Mazrim Taim confronts Rand and the Seanchen women, he attacks the Seanchen women and Rand cannot grasp Saidin, he dies because he can't have another women dead because of him. Logain proceeds to fight Taim, Aviendha, Elayne and Min are all crying over Rand's dead body during this time.
Logain eventually uses balefire and kills Taim thus resurrecting Rand though minus LTT. That would explain in my mind how all of Min's viewings happen. Just occurred to me reading this thread, and it wouldn't really surprise me to see something along those lines occur. As Rand dies and lives, Logain gains glory, the Seanchen women helps Rand die, and the three women over Rand's body all happen.
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Well, he could actually be less mad now than when he killed his wife. In the prologue to TEoTW, Ishmael heals him so he can understand what he's done.
Arr, you're right. There's so much WoT stuff I've forgotten.
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REALLY late to this discussion and not sure if my theory is someone elses or not (read upto page 8 before posting this).
Rand is meant to live and too die, Logain gains glory by walking over Rand's body, three women are crying over Rand's body and the Seanchen women who's name slips my mind is to help Rand die.
My theory is this.
Mazrim Taim confronts Rand and the Seanchen women, he attacks the Seanchen women and Rand cannot grasp Saidin, he dies because he can't have another women dead because of him. Logain proceeds to fight Taim, Aviendha, Elayne and Min are all crying over Rand's dead body during this time.
Logain eventually uses balefire and kills Taim thus resurrecting Rand though minus LTT. That would explain in my mind how all of Min's viewings happen. Just occurred to me reading this thread, and it wouldn't really surprise me to see something along those lines occur. As Rand dies and lives, Logain gains glory, the Seanchen women helps Rand die, and the three women over Rand's body all happen.
Good theory. It makes sense that balefire would be used. It definately would fit with the cryptic, "to live, you must die", answer the Finn gave Rand. I also went and did some more digging on this and found a passage in LoC where Nicola has a viewing and it may point to Rand dying but yet still is alive in the end:
"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle...."
It also fits with the three women crying over Rand.
The lion sword- Elayne
dedicated spear- Aviendha
she who sees beyond- Min
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I hate to be mister gloom and doom, but Rand's living could merely be his life given up for his cause, or more likely his bloodline continuing...I personally think he will somehow come back... but there still is the posibility of him not. ???
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I hate to be mister gloom and doom, but Rand's living could merely be his life given up for his cause, or more likely his bloodline continuing...I personally think he will somehow come back... but there still is the posibility of him not. ???
Yeah, you could definately be right about that, especially since Rand symbolizes Jesus Christ in so many ways. Such as, he is the savior reborn, the wound in his side, the crown of swords(thorns), etc..... So, yeah he could die and maybe "live" on somwhere else such as Tel'aran'rhiod.
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Min had a viewing that Aviendha is going to have Rand's babies and that hasn't happened yet, so that will have to happen soon if Rand is going to end up dead. Just a thought.
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Min had a viewing that Aviendha is going to have Rand's babies and that hasn't happened yet, so that will have to happen soon if Rand is going to end up dead. Just a thought.
True but Min also knows that there will be something odd about the 4 children she will have with Rand. Winters Heart chap. 12 "Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd."
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Being careful and a blanket decision to ignore everything they say are different things. Also, everyone is irrational about one thing or another.
Especially when many of the things they do say are correct and verified in the real world.
LTT has proven reliable when it comes to using Saidin, teaching Rand techniques and new weaves. He is correct when he remembers the face and crimes of the forsaken. He says Saidin is clean. This can't be wiped out by just saying "But he's mad!" He is clearly not completely mad, whatever that would mean.
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Being careful and a blanket decision to ignore everything they say are different things. Also, everyone is irrational about one thing or another.
He says Saidin is clean. This can't be wiped out by just saying "But he's mad!" He is clearly not completely mad, whatever that would mean.
When exactly did he say that? I can't actually remember him saying that, although everyone seems to assume he did. Does anyone know?
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Being careful and a blanket decision to ignore everything they say are different things. Also, everyone is irrational about one thing or another.
He says Saidin is clean. This can't be wiped out by just saying "But he's mad!" He is clearly not completely mad, whatever that would mean.
When exactly did he say that? I can't actually remember him saying that, although everyone seems to assume he did. Does anyone know?
Lews Therin mutters "it is clean" several times in CoT chapter 24.
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In addition to the fact that all crazy people have lucid moments, Ishy healed LTT before his death and with the removal of the taint he should have started some form of recovery. I think its pretty easy to say he is a reliable source on things of AoL and that he's so bloody depressed over Illana and that just gives a greater appearance of insanity.
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The plot between LTT and Rand is realy a funny one. LTT think Rend is a mad voice in his head, and Rand think LTT is a mad voice in his head.
I dont think LTT is mad anymore, he did get healed before he did die, but he is/was a very sad man, so sad that he think he is crazy and have a voice in the head (Rand). I f you think about it, he did hear voices before he was healed (lanfear did say that male channelers did that before the madness did take them) so its not strange that he still think he is mad and refuse to "talk" to the voice (Rand).
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REALLY late to this discussion and not sure if my theory is someone elses or not (read upto page 8 before posting this).
Rand is meant to live and too die, Logain gains glory by walking over Rand's body, three women are crying over Rand's body and the Seanchen women who's name slips my mind is to help Rand die.
My theory is this.
Mazrim Taim confronts Rand and the Seanchen women, he attacks the Seanchen women and Rand cannot grasp Saidin, he dies because he can't have another women dead because of him. Logain proceeds to fight Taim, Aviendha, Elayne and Min are all crying over Rand's dead body during this time.
Logain eventually uses balefire and kills Taim thus resurrecting Rand though minus LTT. That would explain in my mind how all of Min's viewings happen. Just occurred to me reading this thread, and it wouldn't really surprise me to see something along those lines occur. As Rand dies and lives, Logain gains glory, the Seanchen women helps Rand die, and the three women over Rand's body all happen.
This idea is nice in that it does include a lot of what NEEDS to happen from prophecies/visions etc.
BUT I don't like it because I think the whole "living, dying, living" thing would be SOOOOO cheap if Balefire was used again.
We've already seen it done multiple times . . . especially in Fires of Heaven when Rand balefires the Dark Hounds to save Matt and then balefires Rahvin to save his forces.
It's just too easy and too pat I feel.
And Rand's death should come in the final confrontation with the Dark One, not some Dreadlord flunkie like Mazrim Taim. I think he WILL die but it will be a lot more clever twist with him coming back.
The key and I've been harping on this for close to 20 years now is that LEWS THERIN must die and WANTS to die. Right now, there is really no hope here for Rand as the situation exists because even if he wins and kicks hiney he is still stuck with Lews Therin in his head.
For him to have a happy ending, he HAS to get rid of Lews Therin. For the prophecies to be fulfilled and for ultimate victory, Lews Therin needs to go and I think the only way to do it is for Rand . . . perhaps controlled by Lews Therin's soul to "die."
This will seemingly give the Dark One and the forces of evil ultimate victory. THEN, in a great twist no ones sees coming (except us of course) The Dragon RETURNS, this time with Rand's soul and victory is snatched from the jaws of defeat.
Remember that the stakes in this one should be very, very high unless Jordan changed his mind in the writing of the series (which is very possible of course). The Dark One and Ishamael DOES NOT want the cycle to be replayed again and again and again. From Eye of the World, the goal here is to BREAK the Wheel of Time, SLAY the Great Serpent. They want to WIN FOR GOOD.
This is a key, key, key statement because the ONLY way to win for good is to change things up somehow so that things don't repeat. But in doing so, by definition, the Dark One and Ishamael also open up the possibility that they can be destroyed permanently as well.
I would personally be a bit disappointed if A Memory of Light simply presents the Dark One being defeated and then we do it all again in 7 Ages, etc, etc, etc. It reeks too much of Stephen King's The DArk Tower when we learn that Roland just loops back to The Gunslinger again over and over and over again. Even there though, the final end hints that that repetitious cycle will eventually be broken.
I want the same for the ending to The Wheel of Time. That's why I think the last book is going to be so long and so complicated. There needs to be a LOT of metaphysical explanation for this Tarmon Gaidon to be any different from the 8 billion previous Tarmon Gaidons that's been replayed before with the spinning of the Wheel . . .
Dennis
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Quote from: melbatoast on February 25, 2009, 12:09:48 PM
Min had a viewing that Aviendha is going to have Rand's babies and that hasn't happened yet, so that will have to happen soon if Rand is going to end up dead. Just a thought.
True but Min also knows that there will be something odd about the 4 children she will have with Rand. Winters Heart chap. 12 "Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd."
I always assumed that meant they were going to be channelers, or maybe ta'veren. But I don't know.…
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While channelers and even more so Tav'vern are rare they aren't odd they have several an age atleast... I assume they have a forgotten talent or something unexpected. :-*
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Yes, I see your point…but 1) I don't think Ta'veren (at least powerful ones) are so common, and 2) I don't think they were described as 'odd'; I'm pretty sure they were described as 'strange.'
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I would personally be a bit disappointed if A Memory of Light simply presents the Dark One being defeated and then we do it all again in 7 Ages, etc, etc, etc. It reeks too much of Stephen King's The DArk Tower when we learn that Roland just loops back to The Gunslinger again over and over and over again. Even there though, the final end hints that that repetitious cycle will eventually be broken.
I want the same for the ending to The Wheel of Time. That's why I think the last book is going to be so long and so complicated. There needs to be a LOT of metaphysical explanation for this Tarmon Gaidon to be any different from the 8 billion previous Tarmon Gaidons that's been replayed before with the spinning of the Wheel . . .
Dennis
im pretty sure RJ said that this wasnt going to be different from any other turning of the wheel
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But…if it's not…then wouldn't this just be 'not the [end].…But it was [an] ending.' (–Crossroads of Twilight, Robert Jordan)? And…that would kind of suck, right? There has to be SOMETHING different.
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But…if it's not…then wouldn't this just be 'not the [end].…But it was [an] ending.' (–Crossroads of Twilight, Robert Jordan)? And…that would kind of suck, right? There has to be SOMETHING different.
In a sense, I think that RJ is breaking a fantasy trope here, one that everybody's become attached to. It's the idea of Good ultimately beating Evil for reals this time.
On the other hand, I think it's the right thing to do in this case. I suspect that, yes, the DO will break free in seven ages, just like he always has. Nothing different. The details will be a surprise, though.
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Still…I was hoping for something a little different.……………
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I don't think the DO can ever really be defeated, as someone asked RJ if you could balefire the DO would he die. RJ said yes but so much BF would be used that it would destroy existence. The DO is the balance of Dark Vs Light, you can't have one without the other. This series has been about character journey's, not the ultimate show down between badass Villains versus there good guy counter parts. This series to me has been about the way historical truths become myth and legend and then eventually forgotten in the mists of time. I suspect the ending to this series will be the continuing cycle of life and not a "They killed the big bad and lived happily ever after".
Even Jo had to admit there would be other Dark Lords and bad wizards for Harry to deal with after Voldemort.
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I see what you're saying…it's an interesting thought. But…who's Jo?
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Jo Rowling, author of Harry Potter.
Tad Williams is another author who ended things showing that life and death events still went on even though the main story that had just read was finished. Sorta like that prophecy Nicola said "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."
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Oh, hehe right. ;D Most people refer to her as J.K. Rowling, so I didn't know who you were talking about back there. Sorry.
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Yeah most do, I just got used to her saying she didn't mind if people refered to her as Jo. Which when you say that off of a HP forum can confuse people. So I do understand the confusion.
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I don't think the DO can ever really be defeated, as someone asked RJ if you could balefire the DO would he die. RJ said yes but so much BF would be used that it would destroy existence. The DO is the balance of Dark Vs Light, you can't have one without the other. This series has been about character journey's, not the ultimate show down between badass Villains versus there good guy counter parts. This series to me has been about the way historical truths become myth and legend and then eventually forgotten in the mists of time. I suspect the ending to this series will be the continuing cycle of life and not a "They killed the big bad and lived happily ever after".
Even Jo had to admit there would be other Dark Lords and bad wizards for Harry to deal with after Voldemort.
This is wonderfully put. The Wheel turns.
In a way, the real world is like this. Barring something really cataclysmic, for the foreseeable future, life will simply continue the way it always has. Even if you defeat some resounding evil, you will die eventually. The wheel turns.
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And although you can defeat the (specific) evil (in this case, the Dark One), you can never defeat evil itself. ;)
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The plot between LTT and Rand is realy a funny one. LTT think Rend is a mad voice in his head, and Rand think LTT is a mad voice in his head.
I dont think LTT is mad anymore, he did get healed before he did die, but he is/was a very sad man, so sad that he think he is crazy and have a voice in the head (Rand). I f you think about it, he did hear voices before he was healed (lanfear did say that male channelers did that before the madness did take them) so its not strange that he still think he is mad and refuse to "talk" to the voice (Rand).
I used to wonder if there was some sort of time-breaking link between LTT and Rand. So each heard the voice of the other in his own lifetime. So when LTT went mad for the first time his mind got linked up with his future self, and when Rand went mad he linked up with his past self. So that the two timelines are happening simultaneously in their respective heads. Rand wasn't merely hearing voices, but the thoughts that LTT thought a thousand years ago and vice versa.
Trippy, I know, but such are my thoughts sometimes....
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I don't think you are that far off, Loud. It is obvious that many characters in this book are recycled souls. Their intuitive knowledge is a dead giveaway. The real trippy thing about Cyclical history is that the souls of those who live have knowledge of who they are going to be, as well as who they were.
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Actually, he is pretty far off. Robert Jordan soundly debunked the "speaking to each other across the gap of time" theory. Time is cyclical, but two different times cannot be occurring at the same time. Everything that is happening is happening in the present, and LTT did not speak to Rand in the AoL.
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So what is LTT then? He does have the knowledge and skills of LTT, Rand can now draw because of him and he knows the faces of the Forsaken because of him, not to mention all the different weavings for channeling. Is it some dormant part of Rand's soul remembering the old persona?
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Maybe LTT's voice was Rand from the last turning of the wheel. You'd think that they would do similar things each time.
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Or maybe the DO's just trying to do something to screw him up.…
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I have a theory about LTT that doesn't involve time travel or torture. The DO torturing him is unlikely because LTT has been remarkably helpful in cases where the DO would definitely not want him to be competent.
Basically, we know it is possible to have memories that are not from your own life. Matt got his head filled with memories from other people, and Birgette naturally remembers memories from her previous lives (although she is now forgetting them.) In both cases, we get a perfectly well-balanced person who just happens to remember a whole bunch of stuff from the past. Note especially the fact that Birgette produces a single, integrated personality that is constant across all her lives.
I suspect that Rand is experiencing something similar, but with key differences. Unlike Matt, these memories are from his own soul. It seems likely that the soul makes a difference; give the same soul the same memories and you get the same personality back. Thus Rand's personality, as he regained his LTT memories, would begin to overlap and absorb the personality of LTT. Notice the fact that he starts unconsciously picking up LTT's mannerisms and using LTT's memories without being aware of it. Note especially that if he doesn't notice it, there is nothing crazy about what he does with LTT's memories. He is LTT reborn, and so his essence is the same person as LTT, just like Birgette reborn is always Birgette at core; a core which we see in the world of dreams.
Thus I claim that Rand has these extra memories in his head of his previous life, like Birgette. Unlike Birgette, however, he does not want to admit to himself why he has these memories. He does not want to admit that he is LTT and that he really did all the things he remembers doing. These memories are extremely painful ones for him, partly because of LTT's reputation, and especially because of what he did at the end. Combine his attempt to deny himself (because denying that he is LTT is denying himself) with fact that the taint is probably driving him crazy, and it is easy to see how he could end up constructing an alternate "persona" he could assign the LTT memories to. Thus LTT is just Rand talking to himself, refusing to admit that he's gone slightly around the bend.
Of course, part of the question is: why does he remember being LTT? The only answer I can come up with is that the taint triggered it somehow, a la Semihrage's (sp?) explanation in Knife of Dreams that crazy people (even before the taint) somehow remember past lives.
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I have a theory about LTT that doesn't involve time travel or torture. The DO torturing him is unlikely because LTT has been remarkably helpful in cases where the DO would definitely not want him to be competent.
Basically, we know it is possible to have memories that are not from your own life. Matt got his head filled with memories from other people, and Birgette naturally remembers memories from her previous lives (although she is now forgetting them.) In both cases, we get a perfectly well-balanced person who just happens to remember a whole bunch of stuff from the past. Note especially the fact that Birgette produces a single, integrated personality that is constant across all her lives.
I suspect that Rand is experiencing something similar, but with key differences. Unlike Matt, these memories are from his own soul. It seems likely that the soul makes a difference; give the same soul the same memories and you get the same personality back. Thus Rand's personality, as he regained his LTT memories, would begin to overlap and absorb the personality of LTT. Notice the fact that he starts unconsciously picking up LTT's mannerisms and using LTT's memories without being aware of it. Note especially that if he doesn't notice it, there is nothing crazy about what he does with LTT's memories. He is LTT reborn, and so his essence is the same person as LTT, just like Birgette reborn is always Birgette at core; a core which we see in the world of dreams.
Thus I claim that Rand has these extra memories in his head of his previous life, like Birgette. Unlike Birgette, however, he does not want to admit to himself why he has these memories. He does not want to admit that he is LTT and that he really did all the things he remembers doing. These memories are extremely painful ones for him, partly because of LTT's reputation, and especially because of what he did at the end. Combine his attempt to deny himself (because denying that he is LTT is denying himself) with fact that the taint is probably driving him crazy, and it is easy to see how he could end up constructing an alternate "persona" he could assign the LTT memories to. Thus LTT is just Rand talking to himself, refusing to admit that he's gone slightly around the bend.
Of course, part of the question is: why does he remember being LTT? The only answer I can come up with is that the taint triggered it somehow, a la Semihrage's (sp?) explanation in Knife of Dreams that crazy people (even before the taint) somehow remember past lives.
And thus; To Live, you must Die. Embrace the other part of his soul (learn laughter and tears) and he is no longer exactly the same person, or is a completely different person and only the core of who he is is the same. This way several different prophecies all come together at once, even those I've forgotten.
I like this theory. :D
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So what is LTT then? He does have the knowledge and skills of LTT, Rand can now draw because of him and he knows the faces of the Forsaken because of him, not to mention all the different weavings for channeling. Is it some dormant part of Rand's soul remembering the old persona?
Happyman's explanation is right, of course, and one closely mirroring the explanations given by Robert Jordan himself. To add to what Happyman wrote, imagine a soul as a multifaceted diamond, where the facets represent the various personalities associated with the soul over the millennia. Such a facet would then contain every aspect of an incarnation of the soul in question, including personality traits, memory and other idiosyncracies. Normally, these facets are clearly demarcated and separate from each other. In the case of Rand, the boundary between his personality facet and Lews Therin's has been deteriorating, until the two actually come into contact with each other. As indicated by Semirhage, and all extant evidence suggests that she was not lying, this was a known form of schizophrenia in the AoL. That is, it is a variant of the multiple-personality disorder, only with the distinction that the imposing or intruding personality is one which had been previously associated with the soul of the afflicted person. That is, the voice, memories and characteristics of Lews Therin are real, but arise as a consequence of a known mental disease. We have every reason to believe that this breaking down of personality boundaries has come about as a direct consequence of the taint. We know that taint madness takes a variety of different forms, that is, there is no fixed taint madness by which all male channelers are beset. As I see it, the taint merely accentuates or brings to the forefront mental diseases to which a person may be predisposed.
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Birgitte only has the memories of her former self because she was ripped out of TAR before it was time for her to be spun out by the Wheel. That is why the memories are fading. It is also the reason why she fears her destiny to be with Gaidal Cain will not happen now.
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Certainly they are fading because the facet boundaries, to use that metaphor, are being reestablished.
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I agree with some of the multi-facet theory. However, couldn't it be possible that a soul could split?
Cynewulf: What I meant by saying he is not far off is that Rand is speaking to a previous (and also future) incarnation of himself. So in a manner of speaking, he is talking to someone from the past. Matt also had past memories bleed into his current personality before the Finns, but the difference is that his personality didn't split like Rand's. Nynaeve's Accepted test shows her fighting Aginor, which could be a continuance of a fight from her previous life. I feel that all the major characters are reborn souls with special abilities needed for Tarmon Gai'don (which may be obvious). However, most people remember things almost like Deja-vous. I do like the Tyler Durden theory though.
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Interesting theories and a fun read but how exactly is Matt's case so drastically different? His is the same soul being reborn also not someone inheriting memories that aren't his... ???
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Before Rhuidean Mat had a smattering of the Old Tongue and a few not-quite-actual memories that popped up on occasion, and all of it was from "the Old blood", possibly from ancestors and not necessarily his own past lives. After Rhuidean, all his memories from the Finns were just memories they happened to have on hand from various assorted people they'd had contact with. The common thread between Mat and the people those memories come from is contact with the Finns, not rebirth or blood. Heck, it's mentioned a few times that he actually has memories from opposite sides of the same battle in some cases.
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Woops my bad...
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Before Rhuidean Mat had a smattering of the Old Tongue and a few not-quite-actual memories that popped up on occasion, and all of it was from "the Old blood", possibly from ancestors and not necessarily his own past lives. After Rhuidean, all his memories from the Finns were just memories they happened to have on hand from various assorted people they'd had contact with. The common thread between Mat and the people those memories come from is contact with the Finns, not rebirth or blood. Heck, it's mentioned a few times that he actually has memories from opposite sides of the same battle in some cases.
That reminds me of one of the most chilling scenes in the series. Where Mat comes to the conclusion that, since he has various memories of "himself" actually dying, the Finns actually can see through his eyes at all times. Very creepy.
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Before Rhuidean Mat had a smattering of the Old Tongue and a few not-quite-actual memories that popped up on occasion, and all of it was from "the Old blood", possibly from ancestors and not necessarily his own past lives. After Rhuidean, all his memories from the Finns were just memories they happened to have on hand from various assorted people they'd had contact with. The common thread between Mat and the people those memories come from is contact with the Finns, not rebirth or blood. Heck, it's mentioned a few times that he actually has memories from opposite sides of the same battle in some cases.
Thats actually one of the most chilling scenes in the book. Where Mat comes to the conclusion that, since he has various memories of "himself" actually dying, the Finns actually can see through his eyes at all times. Very creepy.
Hmm perhaps this is why Mat may need to lose an eye? Maybe they can see thru one but not the other. If Mat plans to rescue Moraine from the Finns, it would be difficult if they can see someone coming towards them....
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Birgitte only has the memories of her former self because she was ripped out of TAR before it was time for her to be spun out by the Wheel. That is why the memories are fading. It is also the reason why she fears her destiny to be with Gaidal Cain will not happen now.
Oh, absolutely. But it shows that souls, in their raw, disembodied state, and even overlapping with their embodied state, have access to all the different facets their different lives represent. Thus we expect Rand's soul to still have Lews Therin floating around on it somewhere, even if normal birth somehow hides them from immediate access.
You are correct that the reason they have access is completely different for the different cases. No argument there.
Incidentally, she will almost certainly be with Gaidal in this life. Min had a viewing about it!
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Too bad Gaidal isn't Olver... i remember someones saying Mr. Rigney said he isn't.... :o
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Too bad Gaidal isn't Olver... i remember someones saying Mr. Rigney said he isn't.... :o
He could've been lying t us. I hear authors do that sort of thing ALL the time. (Yes, I'm looking at YOU Alcatraz Smedry!) :D
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But Olver is too old to be Gaidal. I know the timing in TAR is messed up but I don't think it's that messed up.
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In his statement, RJ explicitly stated that time might flow different in T'A'R than the "real" world, but it never goes backwards. Thus Olver cannot be Gaidal, because the timelines are inconsistent no matter how you try to pull things. Basically, if two characters meet in T'A'R, you know anything that happened before that meeting for one happened before that meeting for the other as well. Thus if one of the characters saw Gaidal in the world of dreams after Olver was born, then Gaidal was not Olver. Given that we can rely on the real world's timeline, we easily decide that Gaidal was not Olver.
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Didn't RJ clarify that for us already?
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Didn't RJ clarify that for us already?
Yes, but someone suggested RJ might be lying, although I don't know if he was being serious.
He could've been lying t us. I hear authors do that sort of thing ALL the time. (Yes, I'm looking at YOU Alcatraz Smedry!) :D
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Heh heh, Brandon is now estimating 750k words...and says that's been the estimate since last summer. ;)
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Didn't RJ clarify that for us already?
Yes, but someone suggested RJ might be lying, although I don't know if he was being serious.
He could've been lying t us. I hear authors do that sort of thing ALL the time. (Yes, I'm looking at YOU Alcatraz Smedry!) :D
We are supposed to be serious? blast....
For the record, I don't think RJ was lying, but Olver WOULD have been the perfect choice. Unless of course he WAS lying and all those excuses are just hand waving to distract us from the fact that Aliens abducted Gaidal from T'A'R and brought him back to the wrong place! dun dun DUN!
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Well hes ugly enough but yes the time is wrong and it never flows back...just different a day can be an hour and an hour a day it all depends...Egwene or Elayne says something about it when at the Two Rivers reflection in TAR... on a different note...I'm curious who sent the attack on the farm in tear? ???
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Which attack are you talking about?
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The attack in KoD when LTT gets hold of the OP
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I remember that scene. That was when we got the introduction of the death gates.
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Love that one.
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Oh yeah, I remember. But I don't know who sent it.
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The attack in KoD when LTT gets hold of the OP
With that attack, the number of people we can rule out is much smaller than those who could have done it. We can't even rule out Ishmael.
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Before Rhuidean Mat had a smattering of the Old Tongue and a few not-quite-actual memories that popped up on occasion, and all of it was from "the Old blood", possibly from ancestors and not necessarily his own past lives. After Rhuidean, all his memories from the Finns were just memories they happened to have on hand from various assorted people they'd had contact with. The common thread between Mat and the people those memories come from is contact with the Finns, not rebirth or blood. Heck, it's mentioned a few times that he actually has memories from opposite sides of the same battle in some cases.
That reminds me of one of the most chilling scenes in the series. Where Mat comes to the conclusion that, since he has various memories of "himself" actually dying, the Finns actually can see through his eyes at all times. Very creepy.
Do we know for certain that Mat's memories are actually other peoples? I just thought that he was going out of his way to come up with an explanation for having a bunch of memories that he can't account for, since Mat has always been the type to run from problems when he could. Did RJ say for certain?
When do the books mention that he had memories from people on two sides of a battle?
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I'm certain there was memories of him fighting alongside AND against Artur Hawking.
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Yes, it is other peoples memories. The Finns did fill up the holes in his memory with other memories from people who have been to the Finns before him.
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When do the books mention that he had memories from people on two sides of a battle?
I don't know, but I am 100% sure they did.
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Well hes ugly enough but yes the time is wrong and it never flows back...just different a day can be an hour and an hour a day it all depends...Egwene or Elayne says something about it when at the Two Rivers reflection in TAR... on a different note...I'm curious who sent the attack on the farm in tear? ???
I can't remember her name right off hand, but she's the forsaken who is Arangor(sp) reborn--put in new body--it's mentioned in the beginning of KoD I think. Some of the surviving forsaken were there in that meeting.
When do the books mention that he had memories from people on two sides of a battle?
I don't know, but I am 100% sure they did.
Around the last middle of KoD.
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Well hes ugly enough but yes the time is wrong and it never flows back...just different a day can be an hour and an hour a day it all depends...Egwene or Elayne says something about it when at the Two Rivers reflection in TAR... on a different note...I'm curious who sent the attack on the farm in tear? ???
I can't remember her name right off hand, but she's the forsaken who is Arangor(sp) reborn--put in new body--it's mentioned in the beginning of KoD I think. Some of the surviving forsaken were there in that meeting.
Actually, she was the POV character when Ishamael told the rest of the forsaken about the attack. She is, in fact, the only forsaken we can rule out with any certainty.
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We can also rule out Moghedian, Cyndane, and most likely Semirhage. The first two because they do nothing without Moridin's say so, and Semirhage was trying to capture Rand with the male A'dam, so I highly doubt she would try to kill him first.
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We can also rule out Moghedian, Cyndane, and most likely Semirhage. The first two because they do nothing without Moridin's say so
But what if he told them to??
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We can also rule out Moghedian, Cyndane, and most likely Semirhage. The first two because they do nothing without Moridin's say so, and Semirhage was trying to capture Rand with the male A'dam, so I highly doubt she would try to kill him first.
I actually don't rule out Moridin, so these are all second-tier guesses as well.
The type of politics the forsaken engage in makes my skin crawl. I can easily see the whole attack being a feint of some sort.
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Or some kind of twisted plot. As usual. ::)
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There were sooo many Trollocs attacking, though. If you ask me, Demondred or Graendal sent them, not that it really matters in the end. This scene gave me an idea for the ultimate FU weapon. It is a Gateway the size of a basketball that is opened into outer space. Everyone grab onto something, this is gonna SUCK!!! :D
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We can also rule out Moghedian, Cyndane, and most likely Semirhage. The first two because they do nothing without Moridin's say so, and Semirhage was trying to capture Rand with the male A'dam, so I highly doubt she would try to kill him first.
I actually don't rule out Moridin, so these are all second-tier guesses as well.
The type of politics the forsaken engage in makes my skin crawl. I can easily see the whole attack being a feint of some sort.
I doubt that the attack was a feint. Rand and Logain both comment on how without Logain's unexpected appearance, along with his Aes Sedai, the fight could have ended very "differently".
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Well, if there is a darkfriend among Logain's group, it could be a feint. I think it is definitely possible that there is a darkfriend in there somewhere.
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Well, I won't rule out legit assassination attempt either. I could easily be one of the Forsaken trying to get rid of Rand on their own initiative, against the Dark Ones will. We just don't know enough.
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We just don't know enough.
We never do.
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I wouldn't say that Shaggy, some very clever people figured out that Semriage was disguising herself as Anath two books before it was revealed.
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I wouldn't say that Shaggy, some very clever people figured out that Semriage was disguising herself as Anath two books before it was revealed.
Honestly, I think we have enough information to puzzle out just about everything that's going to happen in the final book, *IF* we were to piece it together correctly. However, there's also plenty of things that are like "if you take it this way, X sounds true, but if you assume it's meant THIS way, Y is true"
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Phew .... finally read the 33 pages of replies. Im sure many of these have been mentioned, but just wanted to drop my thoughts as a newly registered member :)
** POSSIBLE SPOILERS **
We all know the Prophecies (and unseen hints of something happening later in the story) play a large part of WoT. Most of the Prophecies have come true, although not in the way we have predicted. I personally found Mat and Tuon's path together quite enjoyable, and found myself chuckling quite frequently.
- Mat will trade his eye for Moiriane, though it will take him a long while to puzzle it out and convice himself to accept it ... He hates those effins.
- Min's first viewing of Rand mentions a beggars staff. This has not been addressed yet? Rand is already deformed, but could it get worse for him?
- The large borderland army will be annihilated. The Queen will die. Bashere will be the next in line to rule, but will pass it down to Faile (and Perrin), who will become King and Queen.
- Gawyn will discover Egwene is a prisoner of the White Tower, become her warder, and go join Gareth Bryne and the Younglings.
- Morgase will make her way back to Caemlyn and become Elaynes advisor. She wall marry Tallanvor.
- Logain's halo of power and glory that Min views, will be linked to his part in the Last Battle. He will kill Taim and become M'hael of the Black Tower.
OR
- Logain will be high up in the White Tower when Asha'man and Aes Sedai re-unite as they did before the Breaking.
- Taim and his 'special students' will try to kill Rand. Logain and the loyal Asha'man will defend Rand, killing Taim and the rest.
- Galad and Berelain will fall in love.
- Lews Therin finally dies. He may be removed from the pattern altogether. I think he is the key to winning the Final Battle. Could he somehow throw his soul at the Dark One, destroying them both?
- Alivia will help Rand die, by telling everyone of his death. Although he is not really dead.
- Tuon will help Rand with the Final Battle. They will be able to keep all their conquered lands in return.
And there are hundreds more things to be said, but ill leave that for now :)
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1) I think Mat's eye won't be given in the literal sense, I think he's going to have to choose between two Aes Sedai, a thing he has been prophesied doing and hasn't yet done. I think he's going to gamble on Moraine and lose his eye somehow in the process.
2) I think the Borderland army is being controlled by Demandred.
3) I actually hope Gawyn dies but we'll see.
4) I don't think Morgase will come out or be and advisor, her time is over and she rather the people think she is still dead. Somehow I think Morgase and Tallanvor are going to be one of those relationships that RJ did not want resolved.
5) I think alot of people believe that Logain will indeed be M'heal of the BT.
6) Don't be so sure about Galad/Berlain. I mean there are many Whitecloaks and there are also the Gai'shain.
7) I don't think Lews Therin can die since Rand and Lews share the same soul and ARE the same person pretty much. Rand is going through a pyschosis where he has a split personality it seems. I think a more accurate thing if Rand survives will be Lews Therin being put to rest. This is also where the Bodyswap theory comes into play since most believe that "two becoming one" is actually Rand vs Moridin.
8) Anyone can do that, Alivia needs to do something that is specific to her skills and abilities.
9) Yeah I think Isendre and others are going to have a BIG problem with that one. No I think Toun will be forced to return with all Seachan back to Sendar, along with Mat. (Thanks for the spoiler RJ) *sheesh*
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Thanks for quoting me!!!! I feel oh so very special...Anyways the Alivia makes sense the rest, put bluntly and possibly offensively (sorry about this in advance), was somewhat obivous or so highly unlikey it borders riduculous... though the insight on Alivia could be it.
Cyndane/Lanfear and Moghidein have no reason to send such an attack and Morridin has no reason to order them to do so as it was all pinned on Sammeal... and for all we know Sammeal has been reborn and is using an illusion to appear as his old self (possibility is less than a white couple having asian twins but hey its there).
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Thanks for quoting me!!!! I feel oh so very special...Anyways the Alivia makes sense the rest, put bluntly and possibly offensively (sorry about this in advance), was somewhat obivous or so highly unlikey it borders riduculous... though the insight on Alivia could be it.
Cyndane/Lanfear and Moghidein have no reason to send such an attack and Morridin has no reason to order them to do so as it was all pinned on Sammeal... and for all we know Sammeal has been reborn and is using an illusion to appear as his old self (possibility is less than a white couple having asian twins but hey its there).
Yeah, but no. If Sammael had been reborn, he would now be a little child with no convictions and no idea who he was. And he would stay that way his whole life. Rand seems to be an exception.
You really don't seem to understand just how nasty a game of chess the forsaken are playing with each other, with the dark one, with the world.
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I meant reborn like how ishmael is now morridin...
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I haven't read WoT in a while; can someone do me a big favor and remind me how we know that Moridin is Ishmael like, reincarnated? Thanks.…
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I think the Glossary eventually just said that he was and then eluded to Cyndane being another like the 'Gars and Moridin. There are hints and such as Moridin refers to things like Ishy and also is the only one to use the True Source, evidence by the Saa (black flecks in his eyes).
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Oh, OK…thanks. And he's just as scary as Ishy was. :o
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Oh, OK…thanks. And he's just as scary as Ishy was. :o
actually, i personally think he's more mad and fiendishly diabolic than ishy ever was.
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Well we never had much contact with Ishy…did we? ??? (I honestly can't remember.)
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Well we never had much contact with Ishy…did we? ??? (I honestly can't remember.)
Our primary contact with Ishy was via the temptation scenes for the three main characters (dreams, etc.). In these he lied quite freely. The whole thing was, as it were, a show. This differs radically from the casual view we get from the Forsaken's standpoint as they meet.
Thus any proclaimed differences between their personalities can be explained quite easily. The wide pattern of matching similarities and identifying features, on the other hand, is quite striking. I, personally, am completely and utterly convinced they are one and the same.
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As you should be. However, Sammael being reborn is unlikely. He either survived Mashadar or he is dead, and since Mashadar is the essence of that opposing evil force that counteracts the taint on Saidin, then I would sumise that he is beyond the Dark One's reach, simlar to being balefired. I only make this leap because RJ couldn't have kept on bringing Forsaken back to life.
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I only make this leap because RJ couldn't have kept on bringing Forsaken back to life.
It's always kind of made me mad that he brought any of them back to life at all. It seems to me that 13 uber-bad-guys should be enough of a challenge for Rand to conquer as a prelude to his showdown with the Dark One; when it turns out he has to kill some of them multiple times it just gets annoying. Plus I don't like keeping track of all those evil people who keep popping back up and changing genders after I think they're safely eliminated. But that's just me.
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The concept in WoT is that people live and die and are reborn. I believe there was a loop hole that the DO took advantage of, since the Forsaken were still in their 2nd age bodies, they were allowed a re-birth into a 3rd age body. Thus Moridin, the Gar's and Cyndane were born. I think this is a one time offer and should they perish again that's it until the next age.
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It has nothing to do with ages and "loop holes" in the sense you refer to. Your assumption seems to be that each soul can live once per age. We have no evidence that such a thing is the case.
RJ has described the process involved. After someone dies, the Dark One has a small window of opportunity to seize the soul. This is presumably a result of his increased ability to influence reality. The soul is then transmigrated into a body which has had its soul removed at some prior stage. Theoretically, the Dark One could repeat this process for as long as he wants, provided that he actually wants to and manages to capture the soul.
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So could the DO do that to himself, you think?
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I really do not think so. All textual evidence, as well as very clear statements by RJ, suggest that the Dark One is an entity which stands in complete antithesis to the Creator. He is a cosmic force, not a man. He is an entity very much reminiscent of the Manichean mythology, and if mythologies should be compared, he is really quite a lot more powerful than the Biblical Satan, as he seems to be the Creator's equal in all respects. Since he is not a man, or even part of the reality of the books, I highly doubt he has a soul to transmute. RJ said that Shai'tan is a force which is not human in any way. There is no reason to think that he has a body, or a soul. Note that in Shaidar Haran he could be said to have imprinted part of his essence on someone existing in reality. He also did something similar to Padan Fain at a very early stage. That being said, I think the Dark One's essence is to huge to be carried by a human, trolloc or myrddraal host, and nor do I think he would be able to move his essence into reality before the seals break. After they break, why should he bother with putting himself inside a human, in the highly unlikely case that it actually could be done? All in all, with Shaidar Haran he has succeeded in creating an agent directly controlled by himself inside the reality created by the Creator. When the seals finally break, he will widen the Bore to the point that he can finally break into reality completely. When that happens, he will be omnipotent, and able to do whatever he likes with it.
As a side note, given the mythological underpinnings of the work, and textual evidence, I believe it is self-evident that the Dark One is not, and has never been, imprisoned. I think he has been shut out. When the creator made reality - all the connected universes and dimensions, all the physical and non-physical worlds in the world of the books - he effectively made sure his dark antithesis would be unable to affect it, as he would surely attempt to destroy it. When the Bore was drilled, Shai'tan was allowed a way into reality. He is not trying to get out of a prison in order to be free, he is trying to gain access to (one of) the realit(ies) the Creator has made in order to destroy it. Ishamael is the only person who has really understood this, as indicated by the works he wrote in the AoL, and supported by the fact that he "called for the destruction of everything" when he revealed himself as Forsaken. This also explains the Creator's apparent lack of concern over the fact that the Dark One is breaking into reality. The Dark One is no threat to him, only to what he has made.
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The last books are missing something lately...oh i know a mano e mano show down with Rand and a Forsaken... who does he off next????
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The last books are missing something lately...oh i know a mano e mano show down with Rand and a Forsaken... who does he off next????
Doesn't matter, they'll just get resurrected. ::)
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all this talk of forsaken getting ressurected repeatedly makes me think of rand standing in front of a revolving door as the forsaken walk out one by one and die over and over and over again :P
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Cynewulf,
Your last comment was extremely well-put. I really like your hypothesis about the DO being shut out, although in a way it is still a prison, only he is trapped outside of reality instead of within it. Or, he is surrounded by Creation, and has his little void all to himself with no way to get out. Either way, it makes sense. I don't think the Creator is without care, It is just unable to help directly. If the Creator is the Antithesis of the Dark One, then the Creator would be unable to directly influence Sentient beings. It would have to allow them to choose. It could give them all the powers and opportunities to do the right thing, but can't force them to do the right thing. If the Creator really didn't care, It wouldn't have a champion, nor would it grant such amazing powers that assist in fighting evil. Unfortunately, free will allows for those powers to also be used for evil.
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Cynewulf,
Your last comment was extremely well-put. I really like your hypothesis about the DO being shut out, although in a way it is still a prison, only he is trapped outside of reality instead of within it. Or, he is surrounded by Creation, and has his little void all to himself with no way to get out. Either way, it makes sense. I don't think the Creator is without care, It is just unable to help directly. If the Creator is the Antithesis of the Dark One, then the Creator would be unable to directly influence Sentient beings. It would have to allow them to choose. It could give them all the powers and opportunities to do the right thing, but can't force them to do the right thing. If the Creator really didn't care, It wouldn't have a champion, nor would it grant such amazing powers that assist in fighting evil. Unfortunately, free will allows for those powers to also be used for evil.
I also liked your thoughts Cynewulf. Very interesting ideas and they are obviously very logically plotted. I do think, however, there will be some type of "Dark One avatar" if only for the sake of it being after all a story :P I think RJ would see too much potential in having the Creator's champion facing off against the embodiment of darkness to not put it in somehow. I like your thoughts of the Dark One imprinting part of his essence on Shaidar Haran.
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What about that one time from Shaidar Haran's pov where he says he gets achy if he's gone from Shayol Ghul for too long, but someday he will figure out how to change that? Maybe he is partly imprinted but apprently Shaidar Haran is still partially an individual.
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What about that one time from Shaidar Haran's pov where he says he gets achy if he's gone from Shayol Ghul for too long, but someday he will figure out how to change that? Maybe he is partly imprinted but apprently Shaidar Haran is still partially an individual.
Well, the DO is an "individual" (for sufficiently broad definition of individual) and seems to have certain limitations (on his knowledge, for instance), even if he is the opposite of the creator. There is no reason why Shadar Haran can't be basically "The DO distilled as best as possible into a somewhat mortal body." He would then be frustrated with his inability to leave Shayol Ghul for too long, not because he wants to escape, but because he would be much more effective if he could move around rather than being effectively chained in place. It doesn't seem to me like it's a desire to escape so much as a desire to spread mayhem.
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Hmmm...I never considered it that way. I'll have to find the quote. I am not sure which way it should be interpreted.
ETA:
Okay, here's the quote. "A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come."
Now that I read it again I think you're correct. He certainly doesn't act like he wants to break free at any other time. I don't know what I was thinking.
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So all this talk about the DO breaking free made me think:
DO's theme song: Queen - I want to break free
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I took the poll at the begining of this thread and I voted "only one or two" I'd like to protest that the answer I wanted to give was not in the poll, however. I think it will be a significant number of characters that have to be killed off. I do not think that if Mr. Rigney had finished the rewrites and edits himself that Rand would be one of them.
1) The prophecies in the series have all been just a bit more obscure than the characters accounted for and it would be too pat for the blood on the rocks passage to lead to Rand's death.
2) James Rigney is one of the most amazing thieves I've ever read. Now I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean he borrowed thematic elements, plot-lines and characters from every major work of Romance and Speculative fiction in the English language and I think a couple from Spanish besides. But he manages to not only make them fresh and uniquely his but to integrate them perfectly. That said book #11 had started linking Rand to Barak Halfhand and Thomas Covenant from [Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever[/i]. That leads me to believe that he would eventually have lead Rand to survive but in a diminished persona minus Lews Therrin and without the Global Empire to manage. That will fall to Matt.
3) The operatic death-of-all-heroes-and-villians-good-triumphs-but-the-only-the-sidekicks-and-lackeys-are-left-to-mourn is so hackneyed I just can't see such an independent thinker being able to bring himself to write it. Not to mention the fact he'd want to avoid connecting his own passing with that of his character and the obvious parallels some wild-eyed fans would draw.
Again just a thought, but I'm open to debate.
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About the 'blood on the rocks' prophecy…I really think RJ wanted everyone to assume this to mean that Rand will die in the end (as many of us did). I also think he wanted us to think that so he could trick us, and have Rand not die.
I just realized this completely conflicts with what I said earlier and my thoughts that Rand will die along with the bad guys. :P Whatever. It's been a month.
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I took the poll at the begining of this thread and I voted "only one or two" I'd like to protest that the answer I wanted to give was not in the poll, however. I think it will be a significant number of characters that have to be killed off. I do not think that if Mr. Rigney had finished the rewrites and edits himself that Rand would be one of them.
1) The prophecies in the series have all been just a bit more obscure than the characters accounted for and it would be too pat for the blood on the rocks passage to lead to Rand's death.
2) James Rigney is one of the most amazing thieves I've ever read. Now I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean he borrowed thematic elements, plot-lines and characters from every major work of Romance and Speculative fiction in the English language and I think a couple from Spanish besides. But he manages to not only make them fresh and uniquely his but to integrate them perfectly. That said book #11 had started linking Rand to Barak Halfhand and Thomas Covenant from [Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever[/i]. That leads me to believe that he would eventually have lead Rand to survive but in a diminished persona minus Lews Therrin and without the Global Empire to manage. That will fall to Matt.
I always imagined him more linked to Jesus Christ or King Arthur with the whole wound in the side and Kingfisher. That is the beauty of this writing is it's connected through many real world historical things. I wouldn't mind Rand surviving though he has gone through alot .
3) The operatic death-of-all-heroes-and-villians-good-triumphs-but-the-only-the-sidekicks-and-lackeys-are-left-to-mourn is so hackneyed I just can't see such an independent thinker being able to bring himself to write it. Not to mention the fact he'd want to avoid connecting his own passing with that of his character and the obvious parallels some wild-eyed fans would draw.
Again just a thought, but I'm open to debate.
Sounds like you wouldn't have liked Braveheart huh? Well I don't know who else besides Mat and Toun who are surviving but I think we will loose "good guys".
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Definitely. If I was writing it, I'd kill off lots of good guys.
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Thing is, in Braveheart the good guys lost the whole war. It's a historical piece based on a history where, wait for it, the bad guys won the war. :) This is fiction where the good guys win. If you want realism, generals don't die in war, that's what field officers and troops are for. ;)
I said STARTING to move toward Thom Covenant. The whole incurable disease, and halfhand, insane Mesiah etc.
Jesus didn't have a wound that would not heal. The wound in his side happened during his last battle. ;)
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That is true about Braveheart being a historical piece that didn't quite get everything right.
I was sorta combining Jesus and Arthur there since Arthur wasn't a messiah so Thom would be a better fit. It just in the past I have seen people say that Rand was a rip off of Thom Covenant or Paul Atriedes. I just feel at this point that the Classic Hero is so ingrained in our psyche he's going to look familiar now in ever story. Rand is even Luke like now with the missing hand.
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Luke who? ???
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Luke who? ???
Luke Skywalker
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Ahahaha that's funny…it seems everything connects back to Star Wars these days. :) Maybe George Lucas is the God of fiction.
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George Lucas>LOTR. Don't believe me? Just watch Clerks 2 ;D
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I believe it. Kind of. Idk. Maybe GL=LoTR
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I dunno I may agree on the respect that the characters in SW were alot more human and relatable then the LOTR characters.
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That and Luke could solo the entire Uruk-hai army.
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But LoTR had Golem.
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Do you mean Gollum?
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Thank you Lightsong for sticking it to Death
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Whatever. You can hurt me. But you can't destroy me. Therefore I can torture you endlessly. :P
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What I was alluding to was that Rand's Character arc has taken through a lot of different personas including elements from Mua-dib, Arthur (though really Arthur is Hawkwing) and Belgarion. At the end of KoD I think this composite arc was starting to imitate Covenant circa White Gold Wielder. Except I think he may imitate Thom in his first trip. Think Hurtloam, and the "fathering" of Elena. . .
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I dunno I may agree on the respect that the characters in SW were alot more human and relatable then the LOTR characters.
Could that be due to the fact that only 2 of the 9 main characters are, in fact, human?
Anyway, I like the title "The Gathering Storm". It gives a sense that the big finish is finally coming.
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I dunno I may agree on the respect that the characters in SW were alot more human and relatable then the LOTR characters.
Could that be due to the fact that only 2 of the 9 main characters are, in fact, human?
Anyway, I like the title "The Gathering Storm". It gives a sense that the big finish is finally coming.
No since other Non-human characters I do find relatible, like Loial for instance.
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Loial reminds me of Sazed a bit.… :-\
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A little I guess, but Sazed is older, wiser, calmer, etc.
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Older?? ???
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Not in years, but in percent of total lifespan, and in maturity - yes, I agree with Shard that Sazed is older.
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Old=lived many years.
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He has a higher maturity level shaggy you understood so be quiet...and don't fake being obtuse
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Of course you would know all about that, Kazy…oh, wait. That's real.
Just kidding, of course. ::)
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Yeah I mean more mature *nods* There is a certain gentleness they both have but by and large I would say they aren't that similar. I mean even their motivation for writing books is different.
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Their desire for knowledge is much the same, though.
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Jordan handled non humans quite well. Even the wolves have personality. I actually think he did us a disservice by not letting us inside the Ael-Finn and Eel-Finn. It would have been interesting to have some wander into the WoT world.
One other thing that always bugged me was the lack of names for the continents. The Sea people and the Seanchan would at least have them. And Farstrider should have as well because of his travel. He needed to have at least coined a term to distinguish "the wetlands" from Shara.
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As far as I know there are only 2 continents. The one the Seanchan are on and the main continent. The Sea People do not sail across the ocean because it is to vast so are unaware of the fact that there is another continent. That would mean only the Seachan should have a name for the continents. If there is only one continent, as most would believe, I would not expect them to name it.
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That is true. Every body of land is named except the one where 99.9% of the story takes place. We have similar needs to know as much as possible, Renoard. However, I am content with the necessity to keep the Finns dark and mysterious for now. Besides, the story isn't finished yet, you may still get what you want.
They named the islands all around the mainland (Tremalking, Isle of Madmen, and there is one other that the Seanchan fall back to after they get whooped at Falme, for example). Would they just be satisfied with keeping everything by country?
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There is a Third continent called the Land of Madmen or Madness. I guess they just never agreed on what to call the land with the Randers, Aiel waste, and Shara.
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Jordan handled non humans quite well. Even the wolves have personality. I actually think he did us a disservice by not letting us inside the Ael-Finn and Eel-Finn. It would have been interesting to have some wander into the WoT world.
Ug, no, not at all.
what makes them interesting is how utterly alien they are. they are above the petty feuds of mortals, and given the nature of the universe they inhabit, i doubt they even think the way we do.
giving them a POV, giving us access to their thoughts in a way that we can understand, brings them down from 'supernatural beings' to 'just another faction with their own agenda'
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I'm going to buck the trend and say that they all survive. I think that EUOL will keep all of the main characters alive, although he may maim/injure, or maybe even make people go crazy.
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For the most part Jordan hovers over the shoulder of characters with a limited omniscience like that of a player working on a section of Warcraft II map. Till he taps the character and gets a "zugzug" or "wokay!" we just get narrative. Watching the Finns out in the real world wouldn't have HAD to have any eaves dropping on their POV, any more than it did in the trips through the terangreal. But I think he could have handled it even with POV. We'll likely never know, unless we see them at the last battle.
On a relatied note, I'd have liked to have seen more "POV" of trollocs and Halfmen. Afterall, they are genetically tailored supersoldiers, with a penchant for cannibalism, not zombies. "Grop hate fade. Grop wish he eat fade when fade young." ;PPP
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Narg eat Grop for insulting Fade...
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Why Narg I never knew you cared about the Fades.