Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: JoeC on November 07, 2008, 12:54:29 AM
-
*IMPORTANT NOTE* I originally started this thread with the intention of asking whether or not I should read Wheel of Time series. I decided yes, but since then this thread has evolved into a chronicle of my progress in the series. Surprisingly, many people have asked me to keep writing about it and my thoughts on it. So, PLEASE, if you have read the WOT series can you check my progress first before you decide to post something that will spoil any of the books for me. Thank you very much and have a good day.****
Hey guys,
I'm a huge BS fan and Mistborn was such a great and fulfilling series to read. I definitely plan on following Brandon's career and reading as much of his stuff as possible. Of course that would include the 12th Wheel of Time book. Here's the problem, I haven't read that series. I was at Barnes and Noble and saw that they had a couple hardcover editions of the book including The Eye of the World. I was tempted to buy it but I hesitated. I love fantasy, but anyone I ask about the WOT series tells me that it starts out great but goes downhill and to not waste my time. This is a real bummer, because I love fantasy and I've never read Robert Jordan before. I figured I could get some better opinions from you guys on this site. Is it worth getting into?? I usually don't like to start a series of books when I'm so far behind because I'm worried that they won't be good and yet I'll have to finish them to know the end. Your opinions will be greatly appreciated.
-Joe
P.S. I understand that some of you may say I should just read it and make my own opinion, but if I do decide to read them I will be spending the next couple of months reading all the way through so I just want a little reassurance from people with WORTHY experience that I will be satisfied. Thank you all again!
-
YES. Wheel of Time was an amazing series, deftly combining real world myths and legends, proven fantasy techniques and a number of original ideas into a tapestry of artistic lore. Jordan is the master of epic tales, where Brandon can spin a twisty tale of mystery, Jordan immerses you into his world,
-
I remember reading the first 3 books about 13 years ago. I really enjoyed them. When I tried to read the fourth book some time later, I realised I didn't remember what the hell was going on and I needed to read them all over again. I never did go back and re-read enough to keep up with the series.
My sister on the other hand, loves it. I'm sure she'd reccomend the series to anyone that enjoys fantasy. I'm thinking of finally reading them all, since I won't have the problem of forgetting everything while waiting for the next book to come out.
-
The books are very good and I think nearly everyone who considers themselves a fan of fantasy should read them at least once. Also it will be a huge point in Brandon's career; while we can hope that it will not be the pinnacle, that he will only grow as a writer and be recognized for his own brilliance and not just the guy that finished WOT, an immense amount of readers will become fans just because of this.
That said, I do think the books drag on far too much. My uncle, the guy who first gave me Eye of the World, told me each time he starts a new one he has to actually get online and read a summary of all the previous books. Also, Jordan's personal style is not something I actually like a whole lot. However, that doesn't diminish his brilliance. Read them.
-
Thanks!! Guys, I really appreciate your responses. I hope I won't need online summaries, as I plan on reading the whole series throughout. (If I like the first book of course)
-
If you are okay with reading long books, then you should read the books. I can see why so many people hate how the story slows down so much because sometimes I get tired of the books as well. That's only when I'm rereading them, though. The first time I read them I loved them. The second time, I still loved them but they started to feel slow. But Jordan writes so well, I actually care about the characters lives and I would hate it if he lessened the details he put into each book.
-
Thanks!! Guys, I really appreciate your responses. I hope I won't need online summaries, as I plan on reading the whole series throughout. (If I like the first book of course)
I'm sure you'll like the first book, it's not slow the way I've heard the later books can be. I remember it being a really fun read.
-
You should definitely read the series!
I have read it, oh I don't know....some 3 or 4 times through from the beginning of the series to whatever happened to be the latest book out at the time. My copies are well worn and much loved.
This is my favorite fantasy series hands down. It inspires me every time. It is unlike ANY other series I've read. It is not merely a coming of age story, or a end of the world story. This is truly an epic. It covers huge events, lots of people, and a very real and believable world. There are points when the action slows down it is true, but it is ALWAYS interesting. Perhaps not to the special effects junkies that need to be wowed every second, but to any lover of books and fantasy. It is masterful.
-
I was an RJ fan long before I ever heard of BS. The WoT books are amazing and its just too bad that you wont get to do all the speculating we got to do over the years. From what I've been told the first three books were built as a trilogy. RJ, I guess, had originally planned to do the whole story in three books but it ran long. He continued to try to make each book readable on its own well into the sixth book but realized that it wasn't possible and backed off on the big recaps around then. Most people that had problems had them in the 4-6 area. Book 7 picks up again and he does a good job right up to book 10. Many people don't like book 10 thanks to the fact that it is a setup book and nothing truly happens. Book 11, though, manages to do so much in the course of a single book that it makes several other previous books look bad.
Throughout the series, there are prophecies and dreams and such that are made and some are quickly completed while others manage to hold on till the very end. Most of us that have been with the series for a long time speculated greatly on what types of things mean what. RJ did a fantastic job weaving an intricate storyline that extends over the course of 12 books and its extremely exciting to be at the end. RJ can get a bit wordy at times and for some people this can be a big turn off, but for the rest of us, it just makes the story that much better.
There are many tools and websites out there to help people with the books. One of the biggest helps I've found was a character archive which seems to no longer exist but reminded me things like who was that Macura Lady from the latest book. There are over 1k major and minor characters amongst the books and many are recurring so it gets tough to keep track of them.
Its a book series that is well worth the read and I would suggest it to anyone.
-
Robert Jordan is second to none in character interaction. He makes his characters seem so real it's scary. Wordy he may be but the man could spin a tale to rival anyone.
-
It is a really long series, but you won't have to wait long until you can read all of them! I think half of the problem for some (me!) is that you had to wait so long for each book to come out and it is only 1/12th of the story! But you can read it all at once.
-
Don't get discouraged if you find the first book a little boring and slow. It was several years after I read the first book (not finding it anything special) before I picked up the rest. I think it's an entertaining series.
Readers started to get frustrated with some of the later books, especially perhaps book 9 and 10 (some people felt like nothing was happening), but I enjoyed both those books like the others. Book 11 though, Knife of Dreams, rekindled a lot of excitement because it wrapped up a few plots and gave a clear indication that the end was in sight.
I do not think the series is the be-all-end-all of fantasy or even particularly original. But that doesn't stop me from finding the books highly entertaining, and I want to know what happens next in the characters' lives.
-
You depfinitely want to read them at least once, just to say you did. They are way better than the only other fantasy series I know of that long -L. Ron Hubbard's books. I only made it halfway through them and that was in high school before I developed the ability to stop reading awful things.
My husband has been listening to them on CD while he drives. They are so long he can barely finish before they are due back. And inter-library loan people get really irrritated if you are late. They are great books. He comes in all the time marvelling at the cool things he had forgotten about.
I think rereading them, while annoying and time-consuming is also essential because there is so much prophecy and so many characters show up once then are hugely important later. It helps to go through again. I plan on doing so next summer. Of course, depending on your reading speed you might want to start now.
-
You're going to find some varied views on this subject. Personally, I haven't actually finished the series. I have read through book four twice and got to six the first time through. This isn't because it's bad--it's because I was in middle/high school and I really didn't like reading much. If I could get through 6k pages when I hated reading, that's saying something.
I am still going through the series right now, but took a break to read Mistborn and am now reading His Dark Materials before I trump through the rest of WoT. All I can say is, it's worth a read. I know what happens through the rest of the series due to the fact that many of my friends are raging RJ fans. There is a book or two in there in which, like others have said, nothing really happens...but I have a feeling I'm going to enjoy them (and the series as a whole) anyways.
I took a course on LOTR a while back and I asked my professor if they had ever read RJs books, and this professor pretty much exploded claiming that he(RJ) was a horrible author. Then, just the other day, I went to go ask a person from my fiction class if she had read the WoT since I saw some themes in her work that Jordan had in his, and that same professor freaked out and ardently expressed the fact that Jordan was in fact 'a hack.' Now, this specific professor has never read the books...way to go, right?
To be honest, those sort-of opinions should be taken with a grain of salt. The books that I have read so far are excellent, and I have a feeling that the rest (especially The Knife of Dreams) are great pieces of epic fantasy as well. Read them. I highly doubt you'll be disappointed.
-
Keep in mind, this series is like many other fantasy series that came before and after it. Some basic storyline. 3000ish years ago something big happened like a war or something and civilization hasn't been the same since. Some person in middle of nowhere podunk town needs to leave because some dark evil is chasing him. The mentor like character takes him on a long journey before sacrificing themselves to protect said person(Or did they sacrifice themself?). Many people come and go from the journey and some go on to their own storylines to do something great and heroic. There are so many fantasy epics that follow this storyline I don't even know where to start(Tolkien?). It was such a breath of fresh air to read Mistborn. Its the stuff above and beyond those things that make the story great. RJ has 8 books above and beyond the basics(as most of those epics are trilogies) that there is plenty of chance for it to be loved and liked by peoples of all types. You'll find all types who think what they want about the series, or you can just read them ;).
-
Well, you guys sold me. I checked your comments on a computer at my work ( the Apple store in Boston) and I figured when I leave I'll hit the Barnes & Noble on the way home and grab Eye of the World. Managed two chapters on the way home and yes it is right up my alley so far. The style of writing isn't bad at all I think. A lot of people don't like over-descriptive books but I happen to be a massive Stephen King fan so I'm used to endless paragraphs of description. I truly appreciate your answers guys and I definitely look forward to being part of the WOT world and joining your discussions. Thanks again.
-Joe
BTW Since I mentioned it I was wondering.....anybody know Brandon's opinion on Stephen King and which books of his he likes?? I'd be interested to know.
-
[ I guess I'd better add **SPOILERS** to this; I haven't given out any plot twists or even plot points in this, just a very brief, vague summary of the first half of the book, but since you are reading it I thought I should. ]
As far as the originality thing, I don't really care that Rand is the typical shepherd boy who supposedly (hopefully? maybe? unlikely) saves the world. What really gets me is that every time I read Eye of the World, I can't help but notice the first half is almost exactly like the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring. Ok, the town has a big party. With fireworks. Plus black riders. Then we go on from escaping from the black riders. Then the wizard/witch and the next in command (Gandalf, Aragorn) have an argument over what to do next. One wants to take a shortcut through an unnamed "place" (Moria/Shadar Logoth) while the wizard/witch thinks its too dangerous.
From there we branch out. Its just the first half of the book that drives me crazy.
-
Lol. I see your point, but I think you're drawing too many similarities where the explanation is simply: institution. Naive main characters and happy starts being tainted by dark figures are good was to start a book.
An interesting re-write for the start of book one: pick up from the river crossing, and give everything else as backstory.
*giggles hysterically*
That'd be fun to read.
-
[ I guess I'd better add **SPOILERS** to this; I haven't given out any plot twists or even plot points in this, just a very brief, vague summary of the first half of the book, but since you are reading it I thought I should. ]
As far as the originality thing, I don't really care that Rand is the typical shepherd boy who supposedly (hopefully? maybe? unlikely) saves the world. What really gets me is that every time I read Eye of the World, I can't help but notice the first half is almost exactly like the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring. Ok, the town has a big party. With fireworks. Plus black riders. Then we go on from escaping from the black riders. Then the wizard/witch and the next in command (Gandalf, Aragorn) have an argument over what to do next. One wants to take a shortcut through an unnamed "place" (Moria/Shadar Logoth) while the wizard/witch thinks its too dangerous.
From there we branch out. Its just the first half of the book that drives me crazy.
Chess games often look pretty much the same for the first few moves, depending only on what general opening the players choose (which in turn is determined by their first moves). If you want to go the peasant vs. dark lord route, you'd better include the terrifying evil agents to put him on his way, and if he escapes those, he'll either be in a position of temporary security or have to take a terrible risk to throw them off. Granted, Jordan's choice of realization of these ideas was deliberately Tolkienish (he admits to giving "homage" to LotR at the beginning of EotW), but actually, the plot he builds around them is not especially derivative. Among the major points you didn't (and can't) compare to Tolkien are: the town being raided by Trollocs; the early development of channeling powers (or foreshadowing thereof) in multiple characters; and the inclusion of women. Also the absence of a council of Elrond between leaving Emond's Field and arriving at Shadar Logoth, and with it the attendant doubling of the party; Jordan's core group remained small throughout the book.
Based on my experience with this question (and other questions about the inviolacy of Tolkien's work, such as whether Arwen replacing Glorfindel in the movie was acceptable), it seems to me to be a question of whether you think of Tolkien as being a good read or the foundation of all epic fantasy (roughly). Not so much in the presuppositions you bring to the discussion, but in how you tend to argue it: for some, the tropes featured in Tolkien's work were actually introduced by him to literature along with the concept of high fantasy (and this is true for some things, for sure); for others, his world is "merely" an astonishingly detailed original flesh hung on the frame of what is (when you get down to it) a relatively common idea. You boil down EotW pretty far, but I can boil it down farther: boy meets fate, is pulled both ways by competing moral interests.
To take the second perspective, it helps to have an embarrassingly incomplete education in all kinds of classics; not being told about the gods gives you free rein to find your own. I couldn't finish LotR until college (specifically, I couldn't get past the break in book two), by which time I was sophisticated enough to appreciate him at a less visceral level.
P.S. What AvalonCreamCorn said.
-
The beginning of EotW is deliberately very similar to the beginning of LotR, but it gets away from that reasonably quickly.
I think most of the criticism for the later books is due to large branching plot lines and slow pacing. It gets to the point where a dozen or more things may be going on at once with very little tying any one plot line to any other for long periods of time. At the same time, each individual plot line takes a long time to resolve. The combination means you need either a good memory or good notes to keep track of everything and avoid getting lost and confused about the plot, along with patience to wait for major things to happen without getting frustrated. Both problems have been exacerbated so far by the necessity of waiting years for each book to be written and published, but that problem, at least, won't last much longer.
If you can handle those two problems, however, the entire series is superb.
Oh, and attention to/memory for detail helps a lot. Robert Jordan likes his foreshadowing, and there are quite a number of ways for it to come up explicitly in character - The Prophecies of the Dragon (aka the Karaethon Cycle), certain Aes Sedai who have the Foretelling ability, a few characters whose dreams can indicate the future, and one particular character who constantly sees visions around most important people she sees. Most of them require significant interpretation, of course.
-
and one particular character who constantly sees visions around most important people she sees. Most of them require significant interpretation, of course.
She is one of my favorite characters in fantasy ever. Such a cool character...oof.
-
I've read the first bunch of them (I think up to 9 or so) but then real life events caught up to me (I moved away to college) and stopped reading. I tried to get back into the swing by getting book 10 (Winter's Heart?) only to realize that I couldn't figure out which character was doing what and why (I'm talking the smaller characters, I remembered what went on with the major ones). Then I got back from college and tried to read them in one big sitting. That didn't go well. I started dreading reading "yet another" 1000 pages of plot.
Having said that I actually rather enjoyed them all and I'm definitely going to re-read them. I just need to pace myself and not try to read them all one after the other after the other without taking a short break in between. :)
The one thing RJ did do was to make me shy away from the really big series - but only when the author isn't nearing the completion of the story. If a major plot arc spans 10 books again, sure I'll read it. If it spans 10 books and the author's only on book 2 and it'll take 3 years between books to read, I won't start it - I'll pick it up closer to completion.
The only thing I wish I had of the WoT series is them all in hardback. My mom and I bought them all in paperback and with the few read throughs that we have done, some are already falling apart.
-
I have read many long series (Chalker, Hubbard etc) and the WoT is the only one that I absolutely enjoyed every single book. With Hubbard, for example, I quit after book 5. It wasnt fun to read, it was draining. With Chalker, I only read the last book because I needed to find out what happened. The first 3 books were really good, and thne, just ok after that. But WoT had me salivating for more at the end of each book. And I was also one of the ones waiting until the next book was published from about book 5 or so.
-
Agreed - like LotR at first...and then later he kind of goes Dune on us (but that only lasts a little while too...and no Duncan Idaho).
Part of the increasingly slow pace IS the divergent plots, agreed (we start out with one group...it splits into two...then into three...then...well, eventually SOME of the big secondary characters disappear for books at a time and we have no idea what they're doing. One notable example is still offstage and we've been given 99% certainty that "RAFO" means "yes, that character will be in book 12...and alive...and VERY IMPORTANT"
Another part of it has to do with RJ's compulsive need to describe where the tea came from, what exactly the collar pin looks like and the intimate details of the relevant family and the contents of EVERY ROOM at a detail level that makes you think we're on Antiques Roadshow "The Westlands" edition.
-
The only thing I wish I had of the WoT series is them all in hardback. My mom and I bought them all in paperback and with the few read throughs that we have done, some are already falling apart.
My father says that I'm the only person he knows who insists on buying hard cover books only. My reasoning is because my first paperback WoT books fell apart. Ever since then I don't buy a book longer than 300 pages in paperback. All my WoT books since then have been fine(though my book 1 is starting to fall apart but for totally different reasons).
-
Hey guys,
I'm a huge BS fan and Mistborn was such a great and fulfilling series to read. I definitely plan on following Brandon's career and reading as much of his stuff as possible. Of course that would include the 12th Wheel of Time book. Here's the problem, I haven't read that series. I was at Barnes and Noble and saw that they had a couple hardcover editions of the book including The Eye of the World. I was tempted to buy it but I hesitated. I love fantasy, but anyone I ask about the WOT series tells me that it starts out great but goes downhill and to not waste my time. This is a real bummer, because I love fantasy and I've never read Robert Jordan before. I figured I could get some better opinions from you guys on this site. Is it worth getting into?? I usually don't like to start a series of books when I'm so far behind because I'm worried that they won't be good and yet I'll have to finish them to know the end. Your opinions will be greatly appreciated.
-Joe
P.S. I understand that some of you may say I should just read it and make my own opinion, but if I do decide to read them I will be spending the next couple of months reading all the way through so I just want a little reassurance from people with WORTHY experience that I will be satisfied. Thank you all again!
Well first off I have read through all of the WOT series to date. And it is very true that this is a fantastic epic fantasy, but be warned around the time that Jordans illness began to get more serious the stories slow way down and character development seems to go into a loop with nothing lost or gained in a few of the books it almost seemed as if the same story was being retold over and over again. For me this began to happen after the release of the fifth or sixth book in the series, but being the devoted fantasy reader that I am I continued to read.
All of the books are extremely well written and you do fall in love with the characters but the plot does leave things to be desired but if you want to know as much about this story as you can before brandon releases the final volume just be prepared for some rough spots and dont let your self lose interest, I know way to many people that simply gave up on WOT because of a few slow editions. And if your going to start with the series i suggest that you acutally start with "A New Spring" at least i think its called a new spring O.o its the prequil and helps to clear up a few things in the beginning, relatively short and very cheap from amazon..
Goodluck,
Lightblade
-
The only thing I wish I had of the WoT series is them all in hardback. My mom and I bought them all in paperback and with the few read throughs that we have done, some are already falling apart.
My father says that I'm the only person he knows who insists on buying hard cover books only. My reasoning is because my first paperback WoT books fell apart. Ever since then I don't buy a book longer than 300 pages in paperback. All my WoT books since then have been fine(though my book 1 is starting to fall apart but for totally different reasons).
I noticed the same thing about my WoT paperbacks accept mine were falling apart with in the first 10 chapters. I do believe it was the printing houses fault. But im right there with you. If im gonna buy a book I want a book thats gonna last. Something that can be displayed proudly upon my shelves not some wrinkled old creased paperback that will fall apart the next time I read it, besides there is something about holding a large well bound book that just makes you feel....well... wise i suppose, LOL much better than squinting at the tiny lettering in a paperback anyways. If i do get a softback and decide its worth a re-read or has some shelf value i usually try and order a copy off of amazon or e-bay when im done.
Lightblade
-
As good as New Spring is (and I fully enjoyed it) I would have to disagree about reading it first. I read it in the order it came out :)
-
In my mind you should read them in the order they are written. For example in New Spring the author assumes the reader has already read the previous novels. Finding out certain things about a certain character's past will detract from NOT knowing about it in Eye of the World. Also the book assumes you are fairly familiar with the magic system etc.
-
Whenever I lend them out to anyone, I give them Eye of the World first, then New Spring, then the rest of them. At that point, they're just familiar enough to get some of what's going on, but by the time they reach the end of New Spring, they have some insight into the rest of the series.
-
I suppose reading EotW first then new spring isnt too bad... But after i finished KoD i went back and re-read them starting with NS and the story just flowed better and i got a better idea of who the main characters were and what they were fighting for.. Kind of like Eddings Belgarath the sorcerer I absolutely loved getting the full history of who Belegrath and Polgara were prior to starting Pawn of Prophecy... I suppose its all just a matter of what your preferences are, im just a fan of starting from the beginning (even if the beginning came after the first book ;) )
-
...Another part of it has to do with RJ's compulsive need to describe where the tea came from, what exactly the collar pin looks like and the intimate details of the relevant family and the contents of EVERY ROOM at a detail level that makes you think we're on Antiques Roadshow "The Westlands" edition.
Ok. I am a huge RJ fan, I love the books... all of them, all the time.. I've been a 'wait for the next book' guy since I finished book 4 for the first time (Perrin's ending in that book is still my favorite set of scenes in the series)...
That said, this quote made me almost fall out of my chair laughing... it is so true! I mean, i love the detail he used but WOW could he describe the slashes of color in a dress!!!
-
Well this is a long thread after only a couple of days. I figured I would put in my two cents.
Ok so I have read WoT and a couple of other long epic fantasy series. The way I describe it and it pains me to say it but the WoT is like a more involved and better described version of the Sword of Truth. The amount of things in this series that I sometimes think Terry Goodking just outright stole is astonishing. And don't get me wrong I love the SoT. Like many have already stated the scope of characters and their interactions is astounding. RJ's ability to "weave" these storylines through so much termoil and around so many barriers makes his work something special. Now I understand those who may think it wordy but the best books often are. I for one will keep them and read them again and hopefully someday one of my kids can read them and enjoy them as much as I have.
-
Well this is a long thread after only a couple of days. I figured I would put in my two cents.
Ok so I have read WoT and a couple of other long epic fantasy series. The way I describe it and it pains me to say it but the WoT is like a more involved and better described version of the Sword of Truth. The amount of things in this series that I sometimes think Terry Goodking just outright stole is astonishing. And don't get me wrong I love the SoT. Like many have already stated the scope of characters and their interactions is astounding. RJ's ability to "weave" these storylines through so much termoil and around so many barriers makes his work something special. Now I understand those who may think it wordy but the best books often are. I for one will keep them and read them again and hopefully someday one of my kids can read them and enjoy them as much as I have.
This is the best review of WoT I've ever seen. Good job Plantation.
-
I still need to finish the series. I started it about 3 years ago and got as far as The Fires of Heaven. And then I stopped because it never went to Perrin....But I've heard number 6 is pretty much all Perrin. I know that's a lame excuse to stop a series, but he was my favorite character at that point in time, and I hated that it didn't go to him even once.
About a year ago, I picked up EotW, but I remembered most of it, so I got online to read a chapter-by-chapter summary of each book....I never did catch myself up. So I STILL have to finish it. And I will. Eventually....And now I want to even more, since some people think it's even better than Sword of Truth (which is another series I never finished--got through 4 and then got into other books...my brother's reading them and he's told me some of what's going on up in book 10, and I'm really interested, though...), and I loved SoT.
I've heard RJ has a lot of characters, though, and all the characters get confusing. And he has/had a habit of mentioning a name, and then 3 books later that person becomes a major player in the story....
-
There is one major difference between WoT and SoT, while Jordan is a great writer and can tie many story lines into one, his books have run on and on and on and ON, without a significant end in any of the novels. Where as Goodkind had the forsight to actually complete a story with each book. I look at it like this, Goodkinds books are like steps leading from one to the other, but each has its own specific ending a quest or problem is solved in each book and each book has its own climax within the larger world of the story its self. Where as Jordans books are like climbing a slope, there is no beginning or end to each story, its just the same story chopped up into many books. Yes there were a few small endings, but there was no true end. With goodkinds WFR you could have stopped right there and never read another novel and you wouldnt feel like you were missing some great important chunk of a story. With Jordan if you dont keep reading its like stopping in the middle of a book for years on end then picking it back up 2 years later and having to go back and re-read the first half just to remember where you stopped. Its like one of those series that you need to wait 10 or 15 years for all the volumes to come out and THEN sit down and start reading just so you can get the story from beginning to end without a 2 year wait between sections to dull your memory. Its kind of sad to say this but I thank god that Brandon got the chance to finish the story, I know hes gonna make it fantastic, but truly im just glad that is going to be OVER, so i can finally move on with my reading life and stop wondering IF the story will ever end.
Sorry about my rant, im not trying to detract from RJ or Boost opinion of TG but the difference in writing styles is great, they are both good authors in their own right. I just personally prefer books that i dont have to sit and wait for years on end to see the end of a story.
Lightblade
-
There is one major difference between WoT and SoT, while Jordan is a great writer and can tie many story lines into one, his books have run on and on and on and ON, without a significant end in any of the novels. Where as Goodkind had the forsight to actually complete a story with each book. I look at it like this, Goodkinds books are like steps leading from one to the other, but each has its own specific ending a quest or problem is solved in each book and each book has its own climax within the larger world of the story its self. Where as Jordans books are like climbing a slope, there is no beginning or end to each story, its just the same story chopped up into many books. Yes there were a few small endings, but there was no true end. With goodkinds WFR you could have stopped right there and never read another novel and you wouldnt feel like you were missing some great important chunk of a story. With Jordan if you dont keep reading its like stopping in the middle of a book for years on end then picking it back up 2 years later and having to go back and re-read the first half just to remember where you stopped. Its like one of those series that you need to wait 10 or 15 years for all the volumes to come out and THEN sit down and start reading just so you can get the story from beginning to end without a 2 year wait between sections to dull your memory. Its kind of sad to say this but I thank god that Brandon got the chance to finish the story, I know hes gonna make it fantastic, but truly im just glad that is going to be OVER, so i can finally move on with my reading life and stop wondering IF the story will ever end.
Sorry about my rant, im not trying to detract from RJ or Boost opinion of TG but the difference in writing styles is great, they are both good authors in their own right. I just personally prefer books that i dont have to sit and wait for years on end to see the end of a story.
Lightblade
While I respect your opinion....I completely disagree. For example, in The Eye of The World, the whole book is about getting the, yet unknown, Dragon Reborn to the Eye and just what will happen when he gets there. Or how about the book 3, The Dragon Reborn, that book builds up the fact that only the Dragon Reborn can pull Callandor and when he does what will happen. The point is in all of the WoT books there is an end of some sort. Yes, the main story line continues on but that is one of the advantages, imo, that the WoT has over SoT. Where WoT continues the main story arc throughout the sereis, SoT creates and finishes one in each and every book. It's like I mentioned before as a stand alone book WFR is fantastic but just how many times can Richard and Kahlan be separated only to be rejoined at the end? Or how many times can Richard save the world from impending doom? It starts to get a tad old.
-
Personally, I highly recommend the WoT series. It is a great epic spanning many a book. And honestly, I thought the first book started out slow, but then it picked up from about halfway through book 2 - book 6 or so. Then it slowed down until book 11, where it picked back up again.
Really, the main reason i recommend these books is because you really feel like it's a living, breathing world. The story is a bit cliche, but told with his own unique twists. It's very grand and detailed in scale, obviously. Really, I think any fantasy enthusiast should make these books (at least the first couple) a part of their read.
Oh, and also, i had the paper back for EOTW, and it, too fell apart. Now I have all of them in hardback.
Also:
http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/
A great site for chapter by chapter summaries, as well as other information in an encyclopedic database
-
LightBlade I also have to disagree. Both SoT and WoT had very definitive things that happened in most of the books. You can't really say that WoT is like one big book with only one climax, that would be ridiculous. You also have to take into account for the Chainfire Trilogy at the end of the SoT. Those three books were possably some of the most important books in the whole series and only the last one had an end to it. The first two were frustrating cliffhangers. Your description was a little hasty. If read through again you would realize that all of these books both WoT and SoT had climaxes and both series had some books that kind of leave you hanging.
-
If we're going to talk about SoT, I feel the need to add my opinions. To say it simply, I think anyone who enjoys WoT will enjoy SoT. Keep in mind that there was some communication between TG and RJ at some point and so there are many parallels between their stories. Unfortunately I think SoT is a great storyline implemented horribly. TG makes a bunch of very amateur mistakes. If you want to read more about them, I posted them here: Shadowburn Archives (http://shadowburn.binmode.com/oldforum/viewtopic.php?p=60249#60249). I don't want to post them here because they do have some spoilers up to and including the final book so read at your own risk. In the end I do recommend reading SoT once as it is a good story.
-
If we're going to talk about SoT, I feel the need to add my opinions. To say it simply, I think anyone who enjoys WoT will enjoy SoT. Keep in mind that there was some communication between TG and RJ at some point and so there are many parallels between their stories. Unfortunately I think SoT is a great storyline implemented horribly. TG makes a bunch of very amateur mistakes. If you want to read more about them, I posted them here: Shadowburn Archives (http://shadowburn.binmode.com/oldforum/viewtopic.php?p=60249#60249). I don't want to post them here because they do have some spoilers up to and including the final book so read at your own risk. In the end I do recommend reading SoT once as it is a good story.
I was told that because I am I big WoT fan that I would like SoT. I finished the second and refuse to pick up another. It felt like Goodkind purposely used ever genre clique.
Also, from what I've heard, Goodkind denies having ever heard of Jordan.
-
Eh, there is no way that is true. Richard=Rand, Blood of the Fold=Children of the Light, Sisters of Light = Aes Sedai, Sword of Truth = Callendor. There are so many parallels between the two stories that there is no way they didn't talk at some point. I've heard claims from as far as they worked together before a disagreement sent them their separate ways to being penpals that just bounced some ideas off eachother. Unfortunately if there is insider information on this, it is deeply hidden on the internet. It looks like the two of them started off with the same world and took the story in two different directions.
-
I agree with ShadowKiller. Now I dont know if they ever talked but there are too many similarities to think that RJ might not have influenced TG. The only one I disagree with is Sword of Truth=Callendor. Thats a little to far seeing how the SoT is kind of the most important thing in all of the books and Callendor really isnt.
-
Magic Sword destined to be held by the prophetic male magic user created during the age of enlightenment 3000 years past? It could have been a spear, an axe, or any number of other objects, why a sword? Why is said sword so important for prophecy? No they aren't exactly the same, but they hold the same place when comparing storylines. The fact that Rand barely used it and that it's a major plot point throughout the SoT series(going as far as the series being named after it) is just a difference in storytelling.
-
I agree to a point but still find it different. WoT has any number of angriel and ter angriel and sa' angriel involved in the story. Ok this one is prophesied about being held by the Dragon Reborn and such but it is still one of many. The sword of truth is more of what the seeker is and it has been held by many people in history. Yes if you break it down bare, your right its a prophetic sword destined to be held by a prophesied leader who may either destroy the world or save it. I'm not disagreeing with your comparison between the stories, in that respect I wholeheartedly agree. I just cant put those two in the same category. Especially when your talking about the story lines. I mean if you want to base your comparisons on the stories being similar this point alone should stop you from compairing Callendor and the SoT.
-
My comparisons are purely broken down bare as you say. The Sisters of Light vs Aes Sedai for instance. The one ages slowly due to an effect on the building where they live, the other ages slowly due to the connection with magic. The one only has access to one half of the power they are capable of tapping into(additive and subtractive), the other has full access to the power they are tapping into(Saidar). In one, Men and Women are both capable of accessing both sides of the same power, the other, Men and Women each access different sides of the same power. You break it down and the details are different, how they are used are different, but in the basic bare bones of the story, they occupy the same place. One could argue that the Confessors occupy the same political position as the White Tower so therefore the Confessors are more like Aes Sedai. Write the basics of the story and they are similar, write details and they diverge.
Is there a group of female magic users? Yes. Who are they? Sisters of Light vs Aes Sedai. Details? Too many to list.
Is there a prophetical sword? Yes. What is it called? Sword of Truth vs Callendor. Details? Too many to list.
Was there an age of enlightenment? Yes. How long ago? 3000 years. How did it end? Cataclysmic war event. Details? Too many to list.
Is there a group of male magic users? No. How long since last normal group of male magic users? 300o years. Details on why they are no longer? Too many to list.
Is there a group that hunts down magic users? Yes. What are they called. Blood of the Fold vs Children of Light. Details? Too many to list.
Its the details that are different between the two stories, but the basics are relatively the same. The further along in the story you get, the less alike the stories are. That's why I said:
It looks like the two of them started off with the same world and took the story in two different directions.
-
Ok your right. Im not saying it in defeat, only because we always agreed. I questioned the Sot=Callendor thing and brought the details into it while I willingly left the details out of every other comparison.
-
Just to let you guys know, I'm about halfway done with Eye of the World. It has recently picked up my interest after being frustratingly slow most of the book. Yet, even when it was slow, I was still thinking about it all the time. Jordan does do a good job creating realistic worlds. I appreciate all your responses, even if some of them have contained mild spoilers (grrr). I look forward to being involved with the WOT discussions here!!!
-
Just to let you guys know, I'm about halfway done with Eye of the World. It has recently picked up my interest after being frustratingly slow most of the book. Yet, even when it was slow, I was still thinking about it all the time. Jordan does do a good job creating realistic worlds. I appreciate all your responses, even if some of them have contained mild spoilers (grrr). I look forward to being involved with the WOT discussions here!!!
What's odd is I keep on hearing people say that the first few books are slow, I read the first six or so in high school and never thought them slow. Now once you get to about book eight and nine, they do slow down--book ten was just painful--but it really picks up in book eleven.
-
The first book is slow largely because of all the traveling. Once they figure out the Traveling weave, that means a lot more can get done in subsequent books because it doesn't take forever to get anywhere.
-
Yeah I never saw the first book as slow. They are traveling but they are pretty much always in a rush running from someone to somewhere.
-
The first book is slow largely because of all the traveling. Once they figure out the Traveling weave, that means a lot more can get done in subsequent books because it doesn't take forever to get anywhere.
I just have to say, every time I read the prologue of EOTW, I like it better and better. So much foreshadowing in that chapter alone.
After reading quite a bit of the series (and knowing about the rest), this section is just plain amazing.
-
There are so many parallels between the two stories that there is no way they didn't talk at some point.
Hmm.
The Eye of the World (15 January 1990)
The Great Hunt (15 November 1990)
The Dragon Reborn (15 October 1991)
The Shadow Rising (15 September 1992)
The Fires of Heaven (15 October 1993)
Lord of Chaos (15 October 1994)
vs.
Wizard's First Rule (15 August 1994)
There are strong grounds for suspecting that Goodkind has committed some crime (plagiarism).
-
There are so many parallels between the two stories that there is no way they didn't talk at some point.
Hmm.
The Eye of the World (15 January 1990)
The Great Hunt (15 November 1990)
The Dragon Reborn (15 October 1991)
The Shadow Rising (15 September 1992)
The Fires of Heaven (15 October 1993)
Lord of Chaos (15 October 1994)
vs.
Wizard's First Rule (15 August 1994)
There are strong grounds for suspecting that Goodkind has committed some crime (plagiarism).
You can't plagiarize ideas. And borrowing ideas isn't immoral, either.
-
I'm reading the series for the first time as well, and I'm up to Path of Daggers. personally, I really like how he can make characters so convincing. Nynaeve, for example, is one of my favorites, mainly because she freaks out so much :D I don't really like Rand all that much because he just seems a little too "Rawr, I can't trust anyone to do anything important and I can't send the people I do trust to do anything important because I can't risk them and Lews Therin tells me to kill them but he's crazy and I don't want to sleep"
At least Nynaeve will make things explode rather than bottle them up like that.
-
You can't plagiarize ideas. And borrowing ideas isn't immoral, either.
Exactly. But one could also say that Goodkind just took longer to get his story in order. With epics like this, you don't just write on the fly. You build the world, you build the history, you build an outline, and then you carefully tread forward. I've heard Jordan originally expected to do it in three books, then in six. RJ and TG may have had an agreement or something where TG waits till RJ finished before starting. If that were the case, TG may have waited till it became obvious RJ wasn't going to finish any time soon. Who really knows and who is really going to admit it.
-
I'm reading the series for the first time as well, and I'm up to Path of Daggers. personally, I really like how he can make characters so convincing. Nynaeve, for example, is one of my favorites, mainly because she freaks out so much :D I don't really like Rand all that much because he just seems a little too "Rawr, I can't trust anyone to do anything important and I can't send the people I do trust to do anything important because I can't risk them and Lews Therin tells me to kill them but he's crazy and I don't want to sleep"
At least Nynaeve will make things explode rather than bottle them up like that.
SPOILER WARNING--THROUGH THE CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT
Yeah, I really like Nynaeve as well. And as for Rand, I can agree as well. I think it's in character, though. My favorite character is still Mat. The chapters in The Dragon Reborn with Mat + Thom are awesome. Also, the pieces of the Karaethon Cycle that refer to Mat are so freaking awesome.
Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky.
Pure epic.
-
You can't plagiarize ideas. And borrowing ideas isn't immoral, either.
Exactly. But one could also say that Goodkind just took longer to get his story in order. With epics like this, you don't just write on the fly. You build the world, you build the history, you build an outline, and then you carefully tread forward. I've heard Jordan originally expected to do it in three books, then in six. RJ and TG may have had an agreement or something where TG waits till RJ finished before starting. If that were the case, TG may have waited till it became obvious RJ wasn't going to finish any time soon. Who really knows and who is really going to admit it.
Not when Jordan started writing tEotW back in 1984. In fact TOR says that Jordan was five years late on getting them the book. He'd started writing the book, but then stopped to do the world building so the books would be concise story. He's said it took him an entire year to do world building, and four more years to make the first novel because he wanted the pace to be even through out.
-
You can't plagiarize ideas. And borrowing ideas isn't immoral, either.
Exactly. But one could also say that Goodkind just took longer to get his story in order. With epics like this, you don't just write on the fly. You build the world, you build the history, you build an outline, and then you carefully tread forward. I've heard Jordan originally expected to do it in three books, then in six. RJ and TG may have had an agreement or something where TG waits till RJ finished before starting. If that were the case, TG may have waited till it became obvious RJ wasn't going to finish any time soon. Who really knows and who is really going to admit it.
terry goodkind: I wasn't ready to start writing until I was 45. When I wrote “Wizard's First Rule”, I was ready. (born 1948)
I've heard Jordan ... "In the beginning, I truly thought it was going to be four or five books,"; "When I finished 'The Eye of the World,' I thought I had a good chance of doing it in six."
RJ and TG may have had an agreement You have a wonderful imagination :)
-
Update for you guys: I finished Eye of the World and I will be starting The Great Hunt tonight. I wasn't over the hill with EOtW but I like it enough to want to follow the story. It really picked up at the end and I was very happy with how it ended. My criticisms are that I still don't fully understand the system of magic and and yes, mookla, there is way too much traveling. Also, the characters took a long time to become likeable, with the exception of Mat, Lan, and Moraine. I didn't start liking Rand until about the middle of the book. I feel the book could have used more action, (btw..when there was action, it was really good)
My compliments are that I LOVE the world RJ made. Very thorough and well described, I feel like it could be a real world. I like how the heroes seem to have all the cards stacked against them and are up against some very tough enemies (when Aginor came at the end and busted them all up, I was like "Holy crap!!") I'm enthralled with the whole Legend of the Dragon Reborn stuff. I like all of the characters now and I'm enjoying their progressions. They've all changed a lot since the beginning of the book (except Lan and Moraine of course) I thought learning of Lan's history was awesome because he wasn't just another bodyguard. I would like to know more about Moraine and her history though. Hopefully, they explain the magic system and the legends more thoroughly in the next book. The index at the back of EOtW was helpful.
Thanks for your input guys!!
-
Morraine is more thoughroughly explained in the prequel: New Spring
-
Beware, they spend many books exploring the magic system though I think much of it is fleshed out pretty well by book...4 or 5. And Lan is also much more thoroughly explained in New Spring as well.
-
Wow you like Mat?? Most people hate him until around book 3 or 4.
-
Lan=best character ever!
-
My criticisms are that I still don't fully understand the system of magic
None of the viewpoint characters understand more than the extreme basics of that, so that shouldn't come as a surprise. Your understanding of the magic system will grow mainly when viewpoint characters start learning it themselves. For some of them this does start to happen in TGH, so you don't have long to wait.
there is way too much traveling.
The amount of traveling doesn't go down much at all, I think, but I imagine your real complaint is about the length of narrative spent on simply getting from point A to point B. That does go down quite a bit as I recall.
My compliments are that I LOVE the world RJ made. Very thorough and well described, I feel like it could be a real world. I like how the heroes seem to have all the cards stacked against them and are up against some very tough enemies (when Aginor came at the end and busted them all up, I was like "Holy crap!!")
If you keep with the series you're up for a lot more like that. The heroes get a lot more skilled and powerful as the story progresses, but I don't think it's much of a spoiler to say that there are 13 Forsaken, Aginor was relatively weak for a Forsaken and even he only lost because Rand caught him off guard, and all 13 survived the 3 millennia of their imprisonment and are now being released. And they aren't the only powerful enemies the protagonists have to face.
I'm enthralled with the whole Legend of the Dragon Reborn stuff. I like all of the characters now and I'm enjoying their progressions. They've all changed a lot since the beginning of the book (except Lan and Moraine of course) I thought learning of Lan's history was awesome because he wasn't just another bodyguard. I would like to know more about Moraine and her history though. Hopefully, they explain the magic system and the legends more thoroughly in the next book. The index at the back of EOtW was helpful.
Thanks for your input guys!!
If you think they've changed a lot now, just wait until you've finished the rest of the series! There is a huge amount of character development throughout the series.
I don't think many specifics of the Prophecies of the Dragon get revealed in TGH, but they are extremely important to the main plot and there will be plenty more about them in the rest of the books.
The magic system is explained in large part by showing certain characters learn it. In EotW there is a single expert and two potential novices (plus Rand, but he has no clue about his ability to channel until near the end), but all of them are so occupied by the plot that they have almost no time to do any teaching or learning. This changes drastically in TGH.
The best source for more information on Moiraine and Lan's backstory is the prequel New Spring. I'd suggest holding off on that until you're a little further into the main series, though.
Oh, and Lan's "not just another bodyguard" status still has a fair bit more to be revealed.
-
Wow you like Mat?? Most people hate him until around book 3 or 4.
Yeah that is pretty shocking. I really didn't like Mat and loved Perrin but as the story progresses that gets reversed, well, for me anyways.
-
My criticisms are that I still don't fully understand the system of magic and and yes, mookla, there is way too much traveling. ... I feel the book could have used more action, (btw..when there was action, it was really good)
The others are absolutely right that you'll soon get more magic explanations, more action, and less time spent traveling. Frankly, I found that last point rather annoying - it seemed like every time Jordan needed to get characters across the world fast, he thought up a new way to do it, and it felt gimmicky to me. It detracted from the whole purpose of having such a (geographically) large world, and it also made all the people without access to the fast-traveling methods seem much weaker and more insignificant. Of course, that's always the danger with magic systems - finding a way for people without the magic to matter. The more powerful the magic, the greater that danger.
My compliments are that I LOVE the world RJ made. Very thorough and well described, I feel like it could be a real world.
It's a good thing you enjoy the descriptions and the well-fleshed-out world, because you'll get a lot of them. Some readers (myself included) get frustrated with the amount of detail Jordan likes to include in every single scene.
The index at the back of EOtW was helpful.
You'll be using it more and more, if you're anything like me.
-
Wow you guys are the best! I couldn't have asked for better help. Just so you guys know, The Great Hunt starts off with a bang and I am very much enjoying it. So much more than when I started EOTW. From what I've gathered reading your responses this is going to be a series I will like a lot. Apparently it just takes a little while to get there. Oh, and to answer your question, yes I liked Mat right away. He is mischievous and is described as having a face always on the brink of a smile, which reminds me of myself. There's never enough humor to go around, I say. Also, I'm finding his inner battle with the dagger VERY interesting. Just another side story, but a good one.
It wasn't my intention to turn this thread into one that chronicles my progression through the WOT books, it's just turning out that way. LOL You guys are very helpful, but I also get a sense of joy that you guys like seeing someone else getting into a series that you love personally. Does it bring back memories?? I experienced the same thing with all the people I've gotten into Mistborn (counting six so far, two have completed the series.) I loved hearing about where they are in the story and what they think about it. Good stuff. So, if you guys feel the same, I'd be more than happy to give frequent updates. Plus, I would love to get into WOT discussions with you (so long as nothing gets spoiled!!! grr)
Thanks again guys.
-Joe
-
Also, I'm finding his inner battle with the dagger VERY interesting. Just another side story, but a good one.
Heh. I'm not too sure "just" is the right word to use when talking about that one, but I should probably shut up now to avoid spoiling anything. ;)
It wasn't my intention to turn this thread into one that chronicles my progression through the WOT books, it's just turning out that way. LOL You guys are very helpful, but I also get a sense of joy that you guys like seeing someone else getting into a series that you love personally. Does it bring back memories?? I experienced the same thing with all the people I've gotten into Mistborn (counting six so far, two have completed the series.) I loved hearing about where they are in the story and what they think about it. Good stuff. So, if you guys feel the same, I'd be more than happy to give frequent updates. Plus, I would love to get into WOT discussions with you (so long as nothing gets spoiled!!! grr)
Thanks again guys.
-Joe
Yeah, the Wheel of Time is one of my top two most favorite series (the other is Mistborn, and I'm not sure which I like better), and talking about it with someone as he goes through it himself for the first time is quite enjoyable.
It's amazing how many seemingly minor characters and plot lines turn out to come back later and become much more important, and discussion like this can help jog your memory when that happens and you can't quite remember where you've seen that character before. Also, it can be great fun to try to figure out what all the numerous foreshadowings and (especially) prophecies and such mean and debate your theories. Many of them have, of course, been resolved already in the course of the existing 11 books, but there are still plenty left.
For a good example of foreshadowing entirely in EotW, think back to Moiraine's explanation to Nynaeve about what usually happens with someone with the spark who is not taught, and consider certain things that happen to and near Rand. For example, Moiraine trying to banish Bela's fatigue and discovering that someone had already done it, Rand feeling and acting strangely when meeting the Children of the Light, the oh-so-fortuitous lightning breaking open a way out when he needed to escape, Rand developing a short spontaneous fever with no apparent cause, etc. Rand goes through exactly what Moiraine explained, and if you notice that connection it becomes quite obvious that Rand has the spark and is beginning to channel well before they actually reach the Eye of the World and fight Aginor.
When you finish book 10, go look up the Wheel of Time FAQ (just google it). You could look earlier, but beware of spoilers. MANY spoilers, discussed in great detail. It has not been updated for Knife of Dreams and probably never will be, so reading through Crossroads of Twilight is enough to deal with any spoilers that aren't just (extraordinarily in depth) speculation.
BTW, does anyone have any idea why a dirty beggar is higher level than a non-dirty beggar?
-
Wow you like Mat?? Most people hate him until around book 3 or 4.
Yeah that is pretty shocking. I really didn't like Mat and loved Perrin but as the story progresses that gets reversed, well, for me anyways.
Mat is too awesome for words. :)
-
Perrin is still my favorite character/storyline, but Mat definitely grew on me with the Band of the Red Hand and Daughter of Nine Moons(those names shouldn't spoil anything, should they?)
-
Yeah, the Wheel of Time is one of my top two most favorite series (the other is Mistborn, and I'm not sure which I like better), and talking about it with someone as he goes through it himself for the first time is quite enjoyable.
It's amazing how many seemingly minor characters and plot lines turn out to come back later and become much more important, and discussion like this can help jog your memory when that happens and you can't quite remember where you've seen that character before. Also, it can be great fun to try to figure out what all the numerous foreshadowings and (especially) prophecies and such mean and debate your theories. Many of them have, of course, been resolved already in the course of the existing 11 books, but there are still plenty left.
For a good example of foreshadowing entirely in EotW, think back to Moiraine's explanation to Nynaeve about what usually happens with someone with the spark who is not taught, and consider certain things that happen to and near Rand. For example, Moiraine trying to banish Bela's fatigue and discovering that someone had already done it, Rand feeling and acting strangely when meeting the Children of the Light, the oh-so-fortuitous lightning breaking open a way out when he needed to escape, Rand developing a short spontaneous fever with no apparent cause, etc. Rand goes through exactly what Moiraine explained, and if you notice that connection it becomes quite obvious that Rand has the spark and is beginning to channel well before they actually reach the Eye of the World and fight Aginor.
When you finish book 10, go look up the Wheel of Time FAQ (just google it). You could look earlier, but beware of spoilers. MANY spoilers, discussed in great detail. It has not been updated for Knife of Dreams and probably never will be, so reading through Crossroads of Twilight is enough to deal with any spoilers that aren't just (extraordinarily in depth) speculation.
BTW, does anyone have any idea why a dirty beggar is higher level than a non-dirty beggar?
Hey watch what you're saying, man. Some of that could still be considered spoilers at the point in the books he's in. This is the type of stuff that is supposed to wait for the second reading of the series. Some of the best things about the books is that they foreshadow so much that at the end of every book, you can sit down and speculate on things to come. For instance, Min made a bunch of readings on all the characters, what might they mean? That's some of the best stuff. Much of it is still unanswered even at this point including the infamous, "Who killed (name removed for spoilers sake)," question. Anyone who is a fan of the series INSTANTLY knows who I'm talking about. Its part of what makes it so awesome.
As for dirty beggar being higher level than a non-dirty begger, my guess is that its very based on the timewasters idea behind the forums. Any beggar who is clean is obviously not wasting enough time. Makes it all that much more funny when you start looking at the other levels.
-
Hey watch what you're saying, man. Some of that could still be considered spoilers at the point in the books he's in.
Er, what in that post could possibly be a spoiler? As far as I can tell I mentioned nothing about the plot other than extreme generalities and things in EotW, which he already finished.
-
Er, what in that post could possibly be a spoiler? As far as I can tell I mentioned nothing about the plot other than extreme generalities and things in EotW, which he already finished.
If I said, then it would be a spoiler. Pointing out lesser noticed details in general can help give away things that aren't confirmed for several books. The details are there so that when you go back, you get an "OH!" type moment. Imagine watching a movie with a friend who has already seen it and every 5 minutes he points out something to you sand says, "keep an eye on that", or "watch this!" You'd notice things you weren't intended to notice and it might just ruin the movie. Sixth sense, for instance. If you point out that she never actually talks to him, it would ruin the movie. My friend almost ruined Fight Club by pausing it at just the right moments to show the secret frames.
Now I wasn't saying that you actually said a spoiler, I was saying that depending on your viewpoint, some of what you said COULD be considered a spoiler under some circumstance. Best not to point out details unless the person comes asking about it and even then, don't explain it, just give hints or say RAFO.
-
Just wondering why no one has mentioned Encyclopedia WOT? I have found this site invaluable when I run across a character that I don't remember. It is exhaustive, to the point of TMI sometimes, but so very helpful for those of us with older brains.
I did have one important plot development ruined once when I read too far down a character's time line, but, with discipline, this site can help one through books 6-11. I even recommend reading the synopses of books 8 and 10 rather than the whole volumes rather than give up on the series in disgust. ;)
I also have loved the audio books for my third time through WOT. Bad pronunciations aside, I love having these stories read to me in preparation for book 12. Go, Brandon!
Winter's Heart has enough good stuff in it, I think, to read through. I'll listen to that one as soon as my free library finds it for me. I just download on my computer, then onto my iPod, and erase when it's through.
Fun to read JoeC's posts... keep it up!
-
Thanks guys. I'm about 140 pages into Great Hunt and man oh man is this getting good!! THIS is what I was waiting for while reading Eye of the World. Now things are coming together and I am starting to really get IN to the story. I was having a hard time with EOTW and how it was mostly slow until the end so I was definitely worried about the rest of the books. Well I don't know about 3-11, but I'm loving the hell out of book 2 now. I'll keep you guys updated.
-
Congradulations on starting a wonderful read. Keep at it. The first three books will feel very different from book four. The story will eventually become absolutely vast. The events of the Wheel of Time are roughly comparable in impact to WWII was for us. Imagine if someone setout to tell the story of WWII from the viewpoint of virtually all the key players on all sides. That'll give you a pretty good idea of the scope of the story. It's an amazingly ambitious undertaking.
The Wheel of Time contains a concept of an Age Lace. The basic idea is that every person's life is a thread. Those threads are woven into a pattern as people interact with each other. In most cases, these threads are allowed to wander about however they like within the pattern. Every so often the wheel which weaves the pattern churns out a central thread. A Ta'veren. This person becomes a focal point in the pattern. The Ta'veren influences those around him and bends their threads around him. This bending ripples outward through the pattern and more and more threads are woven together around the Ta'veren. The more powerfully one is Ta'veren, the more influence that person will have over the pattern. This weaving of threads around a Ta'veren is called an Age Lace. I suspect this is a very familiar concept to most writers.
I told you that story to tell you this story ;) WOT has always seemed to me to be an attempt to tell the story one Age Lace. Perhaps the most important and largest Age Lace ever. Rand al'Thor is probably the strongest ta'veren of all time. The Age Lace which surrounds him encompasses the entire planet. WOT tells the story of this age lace from the point of view of the players key to every major and most of the minor events which are key to the massive social, political, and military upheavals which encompass the entire globe.
So yes it is a BIG BIG story. Jordan made a concious decision to tell the stories of many events which most authors would have occur offscreen and characters to which most authors would make only a passing reference. It can be absolutely bewildering, especially in later books if it's been awhile since you've read previous books. The cast of named characters numbers in the hundreds if not thousands. Some minor characters which only make a brief appearance in early books sometimes reapear later in the story having been wrapped up in the Age Lace. All that said it is immensely rewarding. Stories on this magnitude are VERY few and far between and in my experience nobody has ever written in this scope as well as Jordan did before he passed. The story slows down in a few places, in particular shortly after one extremely major event where Jordan spends an entire book showing the ramifications and reactions of various groups to that major event. As a stand alone book that book seems slow and as if nothing happens, but as a chapter in a much larger book it makes much more sense.
Anyway. Stick with it, ignore the skepticism. You won't regret it if you get all the way through.
Oh and a hint to all thikning about starting it up. Check your local used book stores. Sometimes you can pick up the entire series on hardback for a few doallars per book.
-
Be sure to get the hardback, my paperback copies have completely fallen apart from being read too much ;) you'll love these books!
-
Congradulations on starting a wonderful read. Keep at it. The first three books will feel very different from book four. The story will eventually become absolutely vast. The events of the Wheel of Time are roughly comparable in impact to WWII was for us. Imagine if someone setout to tell the story of WWII from the viewpoint of virtually all the key players on all sides. That'll give you a pretty good idea of the scope of the story. It's an amazingly ambitious undertaking.
The Wheel of Time contains a concept of an Age Lace. The basic idea is that every person's life is a thread. Those threads are woven into a pattern as people interact with each other. In most cases, these threads are allowed to wander about however they like within the pattern. Every so often the wheel which weaves the pattern churns out a central thread. A Ta'veren. This person becomes a focal point in the pattern. The Ta'veren influences those around him and bends their threads around him. This bending ripples outward through the pattern and more and more threads are woven together around the Ta'veren. The more powerfully one is Ta'veren, the more influence that person will have over the pattern. This weaving of threads around a Ta'veren is called an Age Lace. I suspect this is a very familiar concept to most writers.
Jordan got the concept of the pattern and life as a fabric woven by a wheel from Buddhism/Hinduism. In those religions they believe, or fundamentally believe, that there is a wheel spinning out the threads of reality. It might also be the inspiration behind Age Lace, though I don’t know because I’ve never read it.
-
And the snake biting its own tail is something from the greeks, and several other ancient civilizations.
did any math people notice the snake bears a certain resemblance to the mathematical equivalent of infinity?
-
It has been noticed and it would make sense.
-
Be sure to get the hardback, my paperback copies have completely fallen apart from being read too much ;) you'll love these books!
The only reason to collect paperbacks of the first two books is for the really nice b&w illustrations throughout. I'm talking about the paperbacks that split each volume into two parts, the first titled From the Two Rivers. The cover art is just as bad as usual. All the drawings of the main characters within are good, I think, except maybe Rand's. I've yet to see one that captured the complexity of that combination of moral integrity and inner chaos. Hard to draw.
Oh, now that I look, the artwork I like so much is from Wizards of the Coast and Sally Wern Comport. No wonder.
(Slight spoiler alert!)
It's the moral integrity of the Two Rivers characters that kept me reading all the way to the end. My biggest complaint about RJ's world is that he never explains where this comes from and why they (Two Rivers folk) seem to have a foundational sense of right and wrong and almost no one else that they encounter really does, except the Tinkers and a few others. In the real world, there is some kind of codified belief system behind most societies who honor women and children and place a high value on all life in general. I don't believe it occurs in a vacuum.
I'd like to discuss the Aiel here and how their rejection of their moral code has changed them, how cheap life has become to them, but that would get into spoiler territory, so I won't say more. It's interesting, though, and worthy of a thread someday if it has not already been discussed.
(Nominal Spoiler section over)
To Brandon Sanderson's credit, he does not gloss over this important detail, religion or lack of it, and often reveals why his characters believe and act as they do and I appreciate that. And he does it without skewing everything toward his own belief system. That is annoying to me even when it skews to my own! Except for C.S. Lewis, who did it so well.
I have to believe my fantasy or I can't enjoy it. Is that so wrong?? There is only so much unbelief I am willing to suspend, in other words. My above WOT complaint is mitigated tremendously by great character development and lots of unexpected and imaginative plot deviations. That's probably why The Shadow Rising is my favorite book.
-
You have an interesting view, mtbikemom, about the morality of the characters. I've always seen the story as a bunch of important people who all think that they, and they alone, know what was best for everyone else. And as such, they usually don't pay attention to, or try to kill all who believe differently. This goes for the Two River folk too.
To add to this, Jordan, more than any other writer I've read to date, added so many human factors into the characters that there is a huge amount of miscommunication. One main character won't tell another main character something that may be important because they don't want to look like a fool by stating the obvious, or they don't think the other person needs to know, or even it just didn't come to mind. As a result you get a good number of main characters all striving for the same goal, but blockading each other because of miscommunication.
-
(Slight spoiler alert!)
It's the moral integrity of the Two Rivers characters that kept me reading all the way to the end. My biggest complaint about RJ's world is that he never explains where this comes from and why they (Two Rivers folk) seem to have a foundational sense of right and wrong and almost no one else that they encounter really does, except the Tinkers and a few others. In the real world, there is some kind of codified belief system behind most societies who honor women and children and place a high value on all life in general. I don't believe it occurs in a vacuum.
I don't think its a thing that really needs to be explained. Two Rivers is a very remote farm community. Traditionally, communities that has less exposure to the harshness of most societies, tend to have higher moral standards, just because of the fact they are not forced to push those standards for various reasons. The people in the bigger cities and more populated areas have had to deal with bandits, thieves, and the dark one's agents for years. This forces those people to push what they would normally do. In example, if your life is constantly threatened by a human. Even if you resist at first and refuse to get rid of the problem, after awhile most people will cave, and do the dirty deed. This then snowballs as more and more morals are broken. The Two Rivers folk never really had to deal with this. They only had to worry about a few bandits and maybe some wolves. Which the Town Guard could take care of. They did not have to worry about someone stabbing them in the back. This makes them more trusting, and usually people that trust more, have higher moral standards. Notice, the Dark One (I was gonna say a diff name, but that would be a spoiler for JoeC) had to send (insert Dark Friend name here, since I don't remember when it was revealed who was the DF) to find the Ta'veren, which makes me think there weren't any DFs in the Two Rivers. Perhaps showing not only the high moral standard but the remoteness as well. Such a remote place would not be of any use for the DO.
Basically I am saying that their location, and interaction with the outside world forges their habits, and traits.
-
The people in the bigger cities and more populated areas have had to deal with bandits, thieves, and the dark one's agents for years. This forces those people to push what they would normally do.
Ah, that suggests that people, if left to their own devices and with minimal stresses in their environment, are basically good. I don't believe that is true, so the debate ends here if you do. :-*
I believe RJ revealed a similar unspoken premise, conscious or not, that the corrupting nature of power/authority, not to mention notice by the DO, and the intrinsic evil of big-city life are what's missing from the isolated Two Rivers society. My offering here is this: the intrinsic and abiding goodness of a group of people should be explained, it is not natural. It is a common omission leading to weak character development in many genres of literature, but is more glaring in fantasy because of the tendency to portray good vs. evil, which requires defining them and, hopefully, explaining motivation.
RJ was very good at portraying the ill effects of following various faulty belief systems, though. And the problems adhering to a "good" one that seems ridiculous to everyone but its followers. He just forgot to give his main characters a basis for their collective morality.
My beef is mainly that religion is largely ignored in most of fantasy, including Tolkien who revealed how impersonal his own deity was to him by having (?) throw an "angel" or two into Middle Earth and hoping for the best. This is a problem with our culture in general. Almost everyone wants to be their own god and that person, as an author, writes worlds without benevolent creator or religion. These worlds are as empty as the lives of people without faith in something better than themselves. We all worship something...
Mr. Sanderson's worlds are much more compelling because of his more-careful understanding of human nature than is commonly found. I am enjoying that as I read.
-
"These worlds are as empty as the lives of people without faith in something better than themselves. We all worship something"
This is one of the biggest myths perpetuated by religion in general. "faith" is basically a "fill-in-the-blank" reconciliation for not having all the facts. Those of us who choose not to fill in the blanks can be as inherently good or bad, as people who believe in a deity. I am an athiest. And let me tell you, my life is full, not empty. I give and receive lots of love, from my children, my wife, my family. I am not some empty drug addicted husk simply because i do not beileve in a higher power. To suggest otherwise is insulting. And I can guarantee, an athiest has touched your life for the better at some point in your life, and you left him or her, not knowing their beliefs, thinking, "wow, what a wonderful person that was."
-
My beef is mainly that religion is largely ignored in most of fantasy, including Tolkien who revealed how impersonal his own deity was to him by having (?) throw an "angel" or two into Middle Earth and hoping for the best.
I guess you've never read his other books? He did write more than just The Lord of the Rings in that world, you know. The Silmarillion goes extremely in depth to God (Illuvatar) and the angels, far more than Sanderson does (so far). You should read it.
He did not put religion into the Lord of the Rings because he thought it would cheapen it. From what I've read of what he said, I think he believed it would be "preachy." I agree to a point.
He did however give clear indication in The Lord of the Rings that there is a "higher power" and a force for good. Not religion, but belief.
-
Okay, this is thread hijacking, and we’re getting way off topic, but…
I have a friend who’s read Tolkien on Tolkien, and he said that in it Tolkien constantly reiterated that he hated symbolism thought out his autobiograph. I don’t think for one moment that tLotR is religious in the least, or meant to be taken as religious.
Also, I’d hate to see this thread become a religious debate…That wasn’t its intent.
-
max, I know that was not the intent, I just cannot sit idly by while being insulted simply for my beliefs (or lack there of). I am now waiting for the general excuse "I didnt know there were athiests here" from the insultant.
-
He just forgot to give his main characters a basis for their collective morality.
How about cultural inertia? The Two Rivers was founded by some strongly moral people. They raised their kids to have similar morals, their kids raised their grandkids to have similar morals, their grandkids raised...
I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but it seems quite reasonable to me for the morals of a small isolated group to remain stable through quite a number of generations. I imagine any set of ethics that is overwhelmingly dominant can easily set up a reinforcing feedback loop to sustain that ethical standard, so all you really need is a group of like-minded highly moral individuals to found the place and enough isolation to keep outside influences very weak. For a community as small as the Two Rivers is, such a founding group wouldn't be all that hard to come by.
-
I have a friend who’s read Tolkien on Tolkien, and he said that in it Tolkien constantly reiterated that he hated symbolism thought out his autobiograph. I don’t think for one moment that tLotR is religious in the least, or meant to be taken as religious.
Oh absolutely. People say that Gandalf is supposed to be Jesus, etc and he would have hated that.
-
I have a friend who’s read Tolkien on Tolkien, and he said that in it Tolkien constantly reiterated that he hated symbolism thought out his autobiograph. I don’t think for one moment that tLotR is religious in the least, or meant to be taken as religious.
Oh absolutely. People say that Gandalf is supposed to be Jesus, etc and he would have hated that.
Define religious. I think the real question is whether the people in Middle-Earth had a religion. It seems to me that they did, although it wasn't an organized religion like the ones most people here are discussing. Middle-Earth had quite an involved history, and some of the most important bits had the creators wandering around and occasionally fighting each other. There is also an established afterlife, although some of the points are a bit vague. For the Elves, there is also the possibility of going to heaven by quite literally getting on a boat and sailing (with a special dispensation, one which also can apply to Hobbits apparently). Not to mention the transparent analogies to the fall of man (or elf) in the Silmarrion.
It helps that in Middle-Earth, there are Elves around who remember most of the history so it is history, not faith-based religion, per se.
-
Most of the big WOT fans I know do not like the SOT series. This is in part because SOT borrows so heavily from WOT ideas (which I do not mind as WOT borrowed from Tolkien, mythology, etc) but I and most WOT fans take big exception to how Goodkind denies ever reading WOT which appears to be such a blatant lie. (If he did come up with all this on his own then we all owe him an apology but it seems unlikely). My main complaints about Goodkind is that he is so preachy, his writing is too superficial and his characters are to two dimensional. The characters are either very good or vary bad (there are some exceptions like the development of the Mord sith characters). Richard is always right, even when he looks wrong, he is right by some convoluted plot twist, etc. Jordan has much deeper multidimensional characters. The good characters have some darkness to them, and even the evil characters have some lovable points. If fact the forsaken are some of my favorite characters. Two other problems I have with Goodkind are his somewhat graphic descriptions,of evil (although descriptions of Richard's torture by the Mord sith may have been necessary to plot development) and the cheesy ending to the series. Jordan says he knew how WOT would end from the beginning, and all of us WOT fans have been looking forward to this great ending for the past 20 yrs will be really po'd i the ending is as stupid and contrived as what Goodkind came up with.
I guess you know from my post how much I enjoy WOT. In spite of the above rant I enjoyed SOT as well but it was a much simpler, superficial series. Jordan weaves such an intricate, complicated, multidimensional plot and characters that it is a great joy to read and read again. Every time you reread the series you discover new things, either new foreshadowing, new subtle plot twists or details, that is is amazing. I think much of the criticisms of Jordan's series stems form the fact it is so complicated and was written over such an extended time that each book while much anticipated was always unsatisfying because when finished, we were left with the realization that it would be 2 years until we got to read more. Book 10, for example, is very enjoyable as a reread knowing what happens in book 11 and being able to go right into the nest book, but as a stand alone, having to wait 2 yrs for book 11 was another thing altogether. For anyone that enjoys a good story and really interesting char ac`ters, I cannot think of another series to recommend above TWOT. GRRMartin may be a better writer, and ASOF and I is a great series as well, but it is so graphic and violent, that it can turn off a lot of readers.
-
I guess you've never read his other books? He did write more than just The Lord of the Rings in that world, you know. The Silmarillion goes extremely in depth to God (Illuvatar) and the angels, far more than Sanderson does (so far). You should read it.
He did not put religion into the Lord of the Rings because he thought it would cheapen it. From what I've read of what he said, I think he believed it would be "preachy." I agree to a point.
He did however give clear indication in The Lord of the Rings that there is a "higher power" and a force for good. Not religion, but belief.
Reaves,
I am also paraphrasing, but another thing Tolkien said was that he despised allegory (which his friend C.S. Lewis wrote almost exclusively). Christian allegory can be tedious, but wonderful if done well. (For Happyman: "Religion" is defined by some as man's attempt to please/satisfy the demands of God, or whomever/whatever one worships.) Whether a person believes it or not, everyone has a religion. To write characters who seem to have none is, to me, empty and incomplete. My various belief systems, which have changed throughout my life, are the most important factor in explaining my motives and actions at any given time.
To those of us who have a very close bond of daily communication and worship with the God of the Bible, even the amazing Tolkien portrayed a distant creator, uninvolved in the daily doings of Middle Earth as an active participant. None of his people groups worshiped their creator, or anything, really. They just recalled their own history and longed for things that had passed away.
I haven't read all of EUOL's books yet, but at least he describes different systems of worship and the contrast between true and false belief systems. This is not important to everyone, especially those who deny the importance of faith in a higher power, but it is important to me. My Higher Power suffered a lot so I could know Him and be free.
I read the Silmarillion cover to cover once and I feel it qualifies me as a card-carrying fantasy geek. That is the only reason I know that Tolkien's wizards were somewhat like angels... was the word something like Maya?
the mountain biking mom
-
"Whether a person believes it or not, everyone has a religion"
This is patently untrue. Everyone has a BELIEF, not a religion. I know plenty of people who believe in a higher power, and thats it, no relgion about it. They just believe, period. And then me, my belief is that I do not believe. No religion about it. I am not the Anti-Christ. I have a set of morals, I lead a full life with love and happiness. And most people say I am one of the happiest people they know. By contrast, most, if not all of the "religious" people I know (mostly Catholics) are some of the most miserable people I have ever met. The point is: belief/religion has absolutely NOTHING to do with the type of person one is, whether you will be happy or not, nor whether you will lead a full or empty life.
-
Thread jacking is imminent on this thread if this topic of conversation doesn't change. Just letting you know that religion is a "hot" topic and generally gets people interested in voicing their own opinions. Dangerous territory. I think there is a thread where we discussed religion in depth. I forget where but its out there. I advise that if you wish to continue the conversation on religion then make a thread possibly in the everything else category.
I'm not a hall monitor, I have just seen this happen here before. Power too you if you want to continue posting about this. I for one enjoy reading this thread due to its relationship with WoT and not religion.
-
AM: I am just disappointed that MY beliefs continue to be attacked in this thread yet, people ignore it. As long as the attacks continue, I will have no choice but to respond.
I enjoy this thread as well, but some people do feel the need to thrust their beliefs and why they are better than someone else's into the topic. Sad really.
-
Alright. Personally I don't care about who, what or where. We are all friends and nothing should be taken as an attack. I'm sorry if you feel that you or your beliefs have been attacked. Since this is the case I strongly suggest that a new thread be created to continue any and all conversation about beliefs. I personally think all beliefs are as good as eachother so don't think I don't care. And again I'm not trying to play MOD here. If you have issues with someone and what they are saying try to PM them and tell them your issue. If that doesn't work then PM a MOD and they will help you out.
-
Jeez, I saw this thread was going a little crazy so I figured I'd give an update just to get things back on track. I'm on page 387 of TGH and this book is definitely 5 times better than EotW. I'm almost done so I'll have to put in my order for Dragon Reborn soon.
I do kinda have a complaint, the scenes with Rand are getting a little tedious. When I'm reading a chapter that focuses on him, everything seems to slow to a crawl. All the other points of view seem so much more interesting. Hopefully, it will pass soon. It's no good to find the main character boring, especially in a series this long. I'm still intent on reading it. Perhaps these "boring" parts contain something that will become relevant later and I'll have an "Ah-ha!!" moment and realize I was complaining about nothing.
Another thing, it's weird how long it takes me to read Jordan's books. I read fairly quickly, but these seem to have no end. Maybe it just takes longer to read because of Jordan's way of writing. There are so many pages with NO conversation on them and it's all descriptions. Don't get me wrong, I like it. I like getting a lot out of a book and at least I don't have to put away money for a book every 2 or 3 weeks. BTW Selene weirds me out BIG time. I don't care if she's smokin' hot, she's loopy. I have my suspicions.........
Thanks again guys.
-
Joe, I think the slow Rand POV is in there as part of a make up for seeing a lot less of him as the series continues. Also, he just has more things going on than anyone esle, so the POV would go slower.
-
It's interesting to see how Rand changes throughout the novels, and how Mat and Perrin start developing their own abilities. Warning though, in TDR, Rand appears maybe 3 or 4 times through the novel, with his POVs being about 3 pages each (except for the long one at the beginning, I think)
I found it easiest to have the sequel close at hand. it helps cement the story together if you finish a previous book and move on to the next without a break between them.
-
Jeez, I saw this thread was going a little crazy so I figured I'd give an update just to get things back on track. I'm on page 387 of TGH and this book is definitely 5 times better than EotW.
Hardcover, paperback, mass market paperback, or some other edition? I believe page counts vary considerably among those, and there might even be minor differences between different printings of the same type. Plus, I'd have to actually check the book to see where in the plot a given page number is. It would be better to give a chapter name or describe a recent scene briefly to identify where you are in a book.
I do kinda have a complaint, the scenes with Rand are getting a little tedious. When I'm reading a chapter that focuses on him, everything seems to slow to a crawl. All the other points of view seem so much more interesting. Hopefully, it will pass soon. It's no good to find the main character boring, especially in a series this long. I'm still intent on reading it. Perhaps these "boring" parts contain something that will become relevant later and I'll have an "Ah-ha!!" moment and realize I was complaining about nothing.
Is he out of the alternate world yet, and if so how recently? He really doesn't have very much to do in that tiny group cut off from everything.
BTW Selene weirds me out BIG time. I don't care if she's smokin' hot, she's loopy. I have my suspicions.........
Thanks again guys.
Anything specific or just a general feeling that she's odd and out of place?
-
I'm not a hall monitor, I have just seen this happen here before. Power too you if you want to continue posting about this. I for one enjoy reading this thread due to its relationship with WoT and not religion.
Monsta, baby, and dear JoeC, please allow me to apologize for ranting just a bit within this thread. Are you both acquainted with the term "stream of consciousness?" I have a bad habit of writing that way. I am a newbie and perpetual lurker who has found a place to intelligently, I hope, discuss certain topics pertaining to fantasy that interest me. I am also timid about starting a new thread, unfamiliar as I am with the way these things work, but I have enjoyed being listened-to and I have appreciated some of the comments.
In my defense, this was all for Joe's benefit, thereby on topic, and anyone else who is enjoying reading his posts as a new WOT reader. I used to see similar ideas shared on Dragomount's forums, but not with a great deal of thoughtfulness or maturity sometimes. Nevertheless, they enhanced my appreciation of my second read-through TWoT whether I agreed or not. Got me thinking about themes I had not considered before... isn't that what literary discussions are all about?
I am not politically correct in my opinions and I never will be. I have a feeling that this forum is a somewhat safe place for dangerous ideas like mine. ;D My theme was not, if one reads carefully, religion/faith per se but, rather, how certain well-known authors explain the motivations behind their morally-minded characters. And how their worldview affects how they world-build. I guess those ideas belong on the writers' forum or elsewhere. Bear with me... I will figure this thing out!
If anyone is interested, I posted an introduction to myself in the "recent projects" thread. I hadn't yet run across the introduction section... oops again. I welcome personal messages, but will ignore anything closed-minded or lacking respectfulness.
Let's not get bent out of shape, dearest Time Wasters, by unpopular opinions. This is the American way and the reason my grandpa fought in two wars. Sharing one's faith, even just in passing, should not be construed as an attack against anything, should it?
-
"Whether a person believes it or not, everyone has a religion"
This is patently untrue. Everyone has a BELIEF, not a religion. I know plenty of people who believe in a higher power, and thats it, no relgion about it. They just believe, period. And then me, my belief is that I do not believe. No religion about it. I am not the Anti-Christ. I have a set of morals, I lead a full life with love and happiness. And most people say I am one of the happiest people they know. By contrast, most, if not all of the "religious" people I know (mostly Catholics) are some of the most miserable people I have ever met. The point is: belief/religion has absolutely NOTHING to do with the type of person one is, whether you will be happy or not, nor whether you will lead a full or empty life.
You have a point here, I think.
I personally dislike the word "religion" and don't consider myself a religious person, being somewhat inconsistent in my acts of charity/devotion at times, but the explanation of that does not belong here. I'll send you a personal message if I decide it's worth my time.
On the other hand, you denied having religious beliefs and then proceeded to describe them. A strong denial of the existence of God is a religion or personal philosophy or faith system, whatever you choose to call it, despite all evidence to the contrary. In my ever-so-humble-opinion! Do you look at a beautiful painting and deny the existence of the painter?
BTW, everything you said above could have been said by me at age 19 or so and there was NO WAY I was ever gonna become a Jesus freak, of all ridiculous things. I mean, give me a break! Adam and Eve? Noah's Ark and the flood? How could any intelligent human put their faith in such obvious fables intended to subjugate the masses? I really thought I knew it all, but I was wrong.
O.K., Monsta, I'm done with this theme, I promise! Nothing but sweetness and light for poor Joe from now on!
-
It's important not to get hung up by definitions. When one person thinks of the word "religion" they may think of an organized and codified belief system and corresponding organization, while someone else may use the term "religion" much more loosely.
-
Just to help kill any discussion about there not being a religion in WoT
http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.7_generalities/2.7.4_religion.html
RJ pretty clearly states that there is only one and it is not gone to in great depth because the characters in the store relate to their deity in everyday life.
-
Respectfully, BanD, I did not say there was no religion in WOT, I said that certain characters seemed to have no explanation for their innate morality. Curious that so many fantasy novels are set in medieval-like settings, yet lack a key part of that culture: churches. Hmmm... makes me think of a certain John Lennon song which I despise.
JoeC, if you are not going to miss Rand's pov (point of view) and you actually enjoy RJ's endless descriptions , you will do just fine finishing TWoT, methinks. You may even enjoy the two books I could not abide. Don't forget to use http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ (carefully) if you come across a character that you need a reminder about. It lists everything that every character ever said and did, but don't read too far down to avoid spoilers. You may need this for books 8-11.
Hooray, Brandon, for coming to the close of the first draft of book 12! What discipline! I can't wait.
-
Respectfully, BanD, I did not say there was no religion in WOT, I said that certain characters seemed to have no explanation for their innate morality. Curious that so many fantasy novels are set in medieval-like settings, yet lack a key part of that culture: churches. Hmmm... makes me think of a certain John Lennon song which I despise.
Any thoughts about my proposed reason in the last post on page 6?
I think that morality is really tied more to culture than religion, it's just that religion tends to be a major part of culture. In the case of the WoT, the (single) religion is really little more than the acknowledged facts that the Creator and Dark One exist, are good and evil respectively, and that the Dark One is constantly trying to break free from his prison and destroy/remake the world. There is no real religious doctrine that I've noticed aside from "oppose the Dark One" (also "don't name the Dark One", which makes you wonder how his name seems to be universally known) and the basic tenets of the religion are universally accepted as fact, so there is no need for churches or priests.
JoeC, if you are not going to miss Rand's pov (point of view) and you actually enjoy RJ's endless descriptions , you will do just fine finishing TWoT, methinks. You may even enjoy the two books I could not abide. Don't forget to use http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ (carefully) if you come across a character that you need a reminder about. It lists everything that every character ever said and did, but don't read too far down to avoid spoilers. You may need this for books 8-11.
Or just ask here if the delay is acceptable. I'm sure there are plenty of people here (myself included) who would be happy to provide spoiler-free reminders about characters.
Hooray, Brandon, for coming to the close of the first draft of book 12! What discipline! I can't wait.
Actually, that progress bar is based on a 400k word estimate for the book which is now known to be too low by 200-300k. He kept it at 100%=400k words mainly because that seemed an achievable end-of-year goal, I think, though also to prevent getting bombarded by questions about why the progress indicator went down by 1/3 or so.
-
Curious that so many fantasy novels are set in medieval-like settings, yet lack a key part of that culture: churches.
Wheel of Time isn't really set in medieval-like setting. The tech level and societal level is more or less at that stage that comes right before an industrial revolution. Indeed I would expect an industrial revolution to occurr early in the fourth age, assuming there is a fourth age...
-
Hmmm... makes me think of a certain John Lennon song which I despise.
Any thoughts about my proposed reason in the last post on page 6?
Again, it's just another secular fantasy, a world without an active Creator in which there are no temples of worship, no clergy (speaking of the Two Rivers culture) and no basis for the strict codes by which they live. You'll have to find me an example on earth of a culture devoid of a codified belief system in which human rights, especially rights of lower classes and women, prevail. Go ahead, I dare ya!
Now, at least two other cultures have well-defined religions in WOT. For certain city states (Tear and that place where Cadsuane was from) RJ gave excellent background for their beliefs and it helped explain their sometimes strange behavior throughout. But the Two rivers folk just seem to be humming "Imagine" throughout, but acting like good Mormons, Baptists, Quakers... you-name-it benevolent belief system that emphasizes respect for all life. I'll say it again one more time, that is not within human nature for that kind of a system to develop in a religion-free environment. (Wikpedia says, "A religion is a of way of life based on tenets (or a belief system) about the ultimate power. It is generally expressed through conducts such as prayers, rituals, or other practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality (the cosmos, and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws.") Anyone care to defend my opinion?
I will try to move this thread elsewhere as it is continuing to intrigue some and I think JoeC would rather we ramble about his delightful journey through WOT rather than philosophize endlessly about things he'd rather not think about. Right?
I think that morality is really tied more to culture than religion, it's just that religion tends to be a major part of culture. In the case of the WoT, the (single) religion is really little more than the acknowledged facts that the Creator and Dark One exist, are good and evil respectively, and that the Dark One is constantly trying to break free from his prison and destroy/remake the world. There is no real religious doctrine that I've noticed aside from "oppose the Dark One" (also "don't name the Dark One", which makes you wonder how his name seems to be universally known) and the basic tenets of the religion are universally accepted as fact, so there is no need for churches or priests.
"... imagine all the people living for today..." Imagine chaos, rampant slavery, tyrants' rule and all the evils of the Soviet Union and North Korea covering the globe. That is what happens when religion and worship are removed, not "living life in peace," Mr. Lennon.
Actually, that progress bar is based on a 400k word estimate for the book which is now known to be too low by 200-300k. He kept it at 100%=400k words mainly because that seemed an achievable end-of-year goal, I think, though also to prevent getting bombarded by questions about why the progress indicator went down by 1/3 or so.
I know, I know, I'm just being enthusiastic about any and all progress. By this time next year, if I am not mistaken, those of us who have invested ourselves in this story will probably be reading its hopefully-satisfying conclusion with a lovely hardcover book in our eager hands.
-
Sorry about the format of my last post. I've got to learn how to utilize separate quotes. My additions are in purple and in the final paragraph.
And, BanD, I finally read the excellent link you included in your post and I respectively disagree with Mr. Rigney. It is his world to build, but I think it is lazy to portray innate moral beliefs without a system to perpetuate and encourage those good things.
Man's nature is to go "Lord of the Flies" without the mature guidance of a benevolent faith system to follow.
I will try to sart a new thread about religion within fantasy novels sometime soon. For now, this will end my replies on the subject here! Please "pm" me with any more challenges: respectfully, please!
-
Curious that so many fantasy novels are set in medieval-like settings, yet lack a key part of that culture: churches.
Wheel of Time isn't really set in medieval-like setting. The tech level and societal level is more or less at that stage that comes right before an industrial revolution. Indeed I would expect an industrial revolution to occurr early in the fourth age, assuming there is a fourth age...
I agree, the main continent is definitely on the verge of an industrial revolution--as Rand's latest trip to the Academy and Mat's experiments with cannon demonstrate. But could Aiel carry guns, that is the question.
To go back to why there are no churches in Randland, I think Jordan said something about this a while ago. I can't find the original quote, but religion isn't like our world because the Blight, Trollocs, Myddraal, and thousands of other creatures created in the War of Power serve as daily reminders that the Dark One and the Creator are real. There isn't the need to affirm their belief, because the theology of Randland is empirically visible. I'd also argue that the Aes Sedai fill most of the holes typically served by a religion--serving as moral advisors, preserving the land's philosophy, history, and knowledge, connection to a preternatural force.
-
To go back to why there are no churches in Randland, I think Jordan said something about this a while ago. I can't find the original quote, but religion isn't like our world because the Blight, Trollocs, Myddraal, and thousands of other creatures created in the War of Power serve as daily reminders that the Dark One and the Creator are real. There isn't the need to affirm their belief, because the theology of Randland is empirically visible. I'd also argue that the Aes Sedai fill most of the holes typically served by a religion--serving as moral advisors, preserving the land's philosophy, history, and knowledge, connection to a preternatural force.
Good point! I can sort of see that to a certain extent. I mean, the Creator of Randland is actually Robert Jordan and the creator of RJ is James Rigney and the... etc... It would be just weird if RJ had sudenly inserted himself into the story unless
!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!
Verin is actually the Creator as has been surmised by some kook somewhere.
I have been so amused by certain forums, not here, that contain frustrated querries like, "If Rand can do this and Nynaeve can do that, then why don't they..." I just want to gently remind them that Randland is a limited world created by a finite human. There are inconsistencies and mistakes. On the other hand, our world does not contain flaws in the laws of physics or general design, being created by an all-knowing, all-powerful infinite being. All the flaws are due to sinful human behavior, according to the Bible.
It is to RJ's credit that he created a world that, if one does not over-analyze (have I done that?), one can get lost in the many intricacies that border on perfection but don't really achieve it. And now Brandon has to put all the pieces together. Whew!
-
I think the reason there are no churches in RandLand has a lot to do with the fact that as has been said, the Creator is real and there are plenty of reminders laying around. Just as importantly, the creator has not expressed an interest in being worshipped. Only the Dark One has expressed an interest in being worshipped. At least in this age, there has been only one divine intervention on the part of the Creator, and in that one moment of intervention, the Creator basically said that he would not intervene. The Creator, the Dark One... they are not elements of faith, they are facts of life.
All that said, I think it's important to remember the Prophet and his rather large following. They sound like religious fanatics to me. They are certainly not an organized religion, but they are something of a disorganized religion. As for organized religions, the Children of the Light and the Aes Sedai probably come the closest to being religious orders.
-
I think the reason there are no churches in RandLand has a lot to do with the fact that as has been said, the Creator is real and there are plenty of reminders laying around. Just as importantly, the creator has not expressed an interest in being worshipped. Only the Dark One has expressed an interest in being worshipped.
Another good point, IMO. This is what I'm talkin' about... lively discussion, but we (I, someone) really must move it.
-
But why would we do that when we're having so much fun? ;)
Seriously, I do believe that religion can have a major effect on people's lives. It has had a major effect on mine recently in overcoming some personal problems. However, even before I became active again I still tried to be nice, and generally decent, and I hadn't gone to church or had anything to do with my faith in years. I didn't even think about what God would have me do, or anything like that. I just respected people for who they were, people, with thoughts and feelings as poignant as my own, and being nice to them generally made my life easier. I think both sides of this debate have merit. for some people, religion may be a necessity to help them do good, if only due to fear of punishment in the afterlife. Other people simply have a high regard for life and try to be good because that is how they want to live. Basically, religion may be a necessity for some to live a good life, but not necessarily for all, and everyone has the right to believe what they wish.
OK, I said my two crowns worth on that subject. As for the series in general, to reiterate what others have said, loved it, very complex and incredible depth. Books 1 and 10 do move rather slow I feel, but work great as preludes to books 2 and 11. My favorites are 6, 9, & 11.
-
...I think most religions would tell you that the point of religious belief is not to be a "good" person.
-
What do you mean, Reaves?
-
I guess I suppose I am a bit off on that, as far as "most" religions go. But I believe that there is only one true God and one true faith, and that being a "good" person is not enough. "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"- which is what God requires for eternal life- perfection. It's impossible to achieve- we can't do it. And so God sent his son to do it for us.
Yeah, now that I think about it Christianity is really the only religion that says that. Islam and Judaism both focus on works and good deeds, Bhuddism...well, I don't really know much about it, just that it focuses on respecting life, being a good person, etc.
I am well aware that my beliefs are not shared by everyone on these boards. Please do not think I am trying to disparage your beliefs or say that I am better than you somehow. That is quite the opposite of what I am saying- I am the worst sinner I know :P
And now I really must agree with mtbikemom; this conversation has lost all pretense of being related to the WOT :P
-
Since people are STILL on religion, let me point this out to you. The real reason most people of European descent are Christian is because Roman Emperor Constantine converted and forced everyone in the Roman empire to convert. If he had converted to Judaism, the majority here would be jewish, not Christian. Religion has as much to do with tradition and upbringing as it does with "faith".
and I personally refuse to believe that a "loving god" would be so cruel as to force everyone to prostrate themselves before him in order to ascend. mtbikemom sent me a couple pms, but this should suffice for an answer.
I know you all think I "cannot be saved" because I do not believe, but I look at religion this way:
If you were told that all the food in the world was poisoned and the only way to survive was to drink this antidote which had a side effect of making you sing songs for 2 hours a week praising the antidote and believe that everyone who didnt take the antidote was going to die. Yet, some people choose not to take the antidote, and live anyway, without any side effects. But you all take it anyway, even though you cannot see any benefit from it other than the fact that you get toigether often with people who take the same flavor antidote and spend your lives putting down people who take other flavors, or take none at all. Religion is like any business, being a good person will never be part of their plan, for if that was the case, they would be OUT of business. whenever you sell a product, you have to make people believe they cannot live without it, this is no different.
and for Reaves: Islam is an offshoot of Christianity, much like Mormonism is. The Torah and the New Testament are part of their holy books, they just believe that Mohammed is another prophet who came after Moses and Jesus (they think Jesus was a prophet, not the son of God).
As for Wheel of Time: they interact with their "creator" ofetn in the books, what do you need churches for when you can interact directly with your diety? Churches and religion are only viable when people CANNOT interact with their deity (see Children of the Light).
-
I'm supposed to be rolling out pie dough now, but I'll get the flour off my hands long enough to post this. I hereby end this lovely rabbit trail on JoeC's thread, since I started it. I will answer you, mtlhddoc2 , elsewhere since I think some people are getting weary of having to scroll through this stuff to get to what they want to hear; namely, how Joe is liking WOT. Thanks to those who have pm'd me those encouraging messages. There are some thoughtful folk who are Wasting Time with me lately!
Thanks for what you wrote, Reaves. You sound like a good egg, but we know that won't get ya to heaven. ::)
Keep praying for mtlhddoc2. I think the hook's in his mouth and he's fighting hard, but I really believe his name's in the Lamb's Book. Otherwise, it's pearls before you-know-what. I really enjoy gently provoking him, which is part of the purpose of this here paragraph; but he has been respectful and has brought up many interesting and challenging points. It's been a lively, healthy, energizing debate.
Actually, Joe, my favorite WOT book is The Shadow Rising. Your head will literally explode when you read it! Better have an EMT handy...
See some of you over in the new Religion in Fantasy thread I'll try to start tomorrow.
-
mtbikemom, I'm a believer, but I have a lot of sympathy for the other view and if I were mtlhddoc2 I would find your third paragraph downright offensive. What you said is not likely to have any kind of positive effect.
If you want to answer him elsewhere, answer him elsewhere. Don't tease with paragraphs like this. It's not helpful.
-
Santa: I do not find it offensive. Mainly because I know how some people can be. She is what she is, and one of the tenets of her religion is prosetlizing. I used to find attitudes like that very offensive,but not so much any more. The only thing that offends me these days is when people say that without "god" I am "empty" or "devoid of morals". The rest I find funny.
-
Update!!
I finished The Great Hunt this morning. Holy crap what a great ending!! Very satisfied and I can't wait for The Dragon Reborn to come in (I ordered the hardcover yesterday.) SPOILERS BELOW:
Okay, I liked this book about 10 times more than I liked EotW. This had more action and more interesting character interactions. I actually had no problem getting used to all the new characters introduced in this book. I'm actually starting to like Rand too, especially since he squared off with Ba'alzamon at the end....oh yeah btw...what an ending!!! I couldn't believe Mat blew the horn! That was so cool! Didn't expect that at all. Also didn't expect Ingtar to be a Darkfriend either. Talk about a sucker punch. I really liked him too and that whole scene where he confesses to Rand who he really was and then goes on to redeem himself was VERY well written. I imagine that if I had ever gotten the chance to meet Mr. Jordan in person, that would be one scene in particular that I'd commend him on.
I thought that the whole Leash Holders/Leashed Ones was very interesting. There is definitely some kind of bondage aspect there and the Seanchan people seem all about control. I had no idea how they were going to get out of there! I felt so bad for Egwene. The scenes of her torture at the hands of Renna and her forced submission were heartbreaking (props again Mr. Jordan.) Which made Egwene's revenge all the better (even if it didn't last)
I'm truly enjoying the ever evolving history of the Dragon and how Rand is fulfilling prophecies and all that. Loial is the man. Would love to have him as a best friend. I'm glad Min is an integral part of the story now, I liked what little of her was in EotW. Finally, the scene where Rand sends everybody through the Way Stone and they all see hundreds of different versions of their lives played out in front of them was one of the most thought provoking scenes ever in a book! Can you even imagine?!? Someone could go mad!! What an imagination Mr. Jordan had!!
Okay I've gone on too long. To sum it up, I'm officially hooked now. I was on the fence after EotW but this one threw me over. I can't wait to read Dragon Reborn. I'm dying to know how Rand handles the fact that everyone is learning of his true identity after people saw him fighting Ba'alzamon in the sky. Thanks again guys!! I'll keep you updated!
-Joe
-
Hi all, new here, fan of Wheel of Time. Would just like to say how much i enjoy reading these books. Started reading them in 2004 (was playing the computer game before that, involved in the online community) and it's a fantastic series. I'm currently half way through Winter's Heart and i just can't put the book down; i haven't been able to put down any of them for that matter. I'm confident Brandon Sanderson (although having not read any of his books) will do a great job in finishing the series off.
@JoeC, it was quite an ending hey? Get ready to look forward to even more addictive Wheel of Time books, especially the Dragon Reborn.
-
Ahh....JoeC, your post reminds me of the first time I read the series. I too was blown away. As I read it over and over, I still find it tremendously exciting even though the initial surprise is gone. I'm glad you are enjoying it. It only gets better :)
-
Like many others here, my story is opposite JoeC's: I've been a Robert Jordan fan for a long time. Book 7: A Crown of Swords had just been published when I first read Wheel of Time. When Brandon Sanderson was chosen to finish Wheel of Time, I was like "Brandon who?
I have since read Elantris and the Mistborn trilogy. I've very happy with what I've seen, as those books are among the best I've read. I think Brandon will do fine with Memory of Light.
Joe, your reactions to The Great Hunt are about what mine were the first time I read it. Looking back, I also now know that I had no idea what was coming, and yet the amount of foreshadowing and consistancy from book to book is amazing. Things were foreshadowed in book 2 that don't come to fruition until book 11, and I wouldn't be surprised to find more fulfillment in 12. I won't say more than that as I don't want to give any spoilers. As RJ would say: RAFO (Read and Find Out). :-)
-
I'm dying to know how Rand handles the fact that everyone is learning of his true identity after people saw him fighting Ba'alzamon in the sky. Thanks again guys!! I'll keep you updated!
-Joe
Yeah, kinda hard to keep it secret after something like that. And then you have certain prophecies from the Karaethon Cycle, too. I checked, this one's in TGH so it's not a spoiler now.
Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron to set his path,
twice the heron to name him true.
Once the dragon for remembrance lost,
twice the dragon for the price he must pay.
He's got the second heron now, and sure enough word of the true Dragon Reborn is starting to spread and Rand is finding it much harder to deny the truth. Makes you wonder how he's going to get marked with a pair of dragons too. I won't say anything about when and how that happens, but it is an extremely powerful scene, one of my favorites.
-
As mentioned here the 3 scenes with Ingtar and his confessssion and death, when Matt blows the horn...with the heroes and Rand battling Ba'alzamon in the sky... and when Rand gets his Dragons are three of the best scenes in the book. However, those of you reading for the first time have lots of great scenes to look forward to, as there are many other scenes equally as good.
-
I loved all the scenes that Joe mentioned from TGH. Just hearing him talk about Ingtar and all those great scenes reminds me about how awesome all of these books are!
I don't know about you guys, but one of my favorite scenes from TGH is somewhere in the middle of the book. When Rand sneaks into the Trolloc camp and steals back the Horn. I love that scene! Rand finally uses the void and the sword lessons from Lan together successfully and we see how deadly he can be (without even touching the OP). And then Perrin and his group get to that point in the trail and Perrin learns that someone killed a bunch of Trollocs and the wolves call him Shaddow Killer. Oooh, that just sends shivers up my spine. And Perrin has no idea that Shadow Killer = Rand. ;D
I LOVE THE WHEEL OF TIME!
-
Sorry for the wait guys!
I had to wait a week before I got the Dragon Reborn, so I read Chris Farley's biography (exellent read, very sad ending) Now, I'm about 65 pages into TDR and I just got done with a very nice action scene. The Trollocs attacked Moiraine's camp and killed Leya. Perrin cleaved a path of destruction with his axe and all the wolves came to help them too. Awesome!! My favorite scene was where Perrin is viewing the wolves chasing down a fleeing Myrrdrall and they rip him apart while Perrin feels their emotions. Such a well written scene, though I'm disapointed Rand sat this one out. Now Min is on her way to Tar Valon and Perrin, Lan, and Moiraine are on their way to get Rand. VERY good book so far! Thanks again guys!!
-Joe
-
Hey Joe,
Like you, I started to read WOT well after it was first published I was able to read books 1-10 one right after another. I'll say this the later books do slow down a little, but it didn't affect my enjoyment in the series too much because I didn't have to wait for the books. Knife of Dreams was published shortly after I finished the tenth book. Two books stand out that I didn't like. Crossroads of Twilight and Path of Daggers. I'll tell you why but don't worry because there is nothing in these reasons that is going to spoil anything for you.
CoT I thought was the final book. I was 3/4 of the way through the book before I realized that it wasn't the last book. Of course you already know this, so it won't be a surprise for you. I actually enjoyed the last 1/4 of the book, so I think I may have enjoyed the entire book if I had known that it wasn't the final book ahead of time.
tPoD is the real reason for posting this because if I knew then what I know now I may have enjoyed that book also. When you pick up tPoD your going to be looking for a certain character, and that character isn't going to be in that book. You're going to have to wait until you read Winter's Heart.
Other than those two things I thought the books moved at a good pace and I really enjoyed 9 out of 11 of them. I'm going to wait until AMoL is published before rereading the series, and I'm excited to see if I enjoy those books the second time around.
-
I also didn't like The Path of Daggers the first time I read it, but for several reasons.
The first one is the one you mentioned; I was very disappointed that character did not appear in the book.
Second, the first time I read the WoT series was in 1998-1999 and at that point tPoD was the most recent of the books to be released. For that one to be the last book I would have to read gave me, well, not much to look forward to. On my several re-reads of the series since, I have come to enjoy it a lot more, but at the time I found it pretty dull.
Third, and this is connected to the last reason, this book is pretty anti-climactic. While a lot of stuff does happen at the end, it's not really suspenseful. Of course, when you have Winter's Heart sitting there just waiting for you when you're done, that's not really a problem. When you have to wait a year and a half...uggh.
Last, this book might be the most confusing of all of them (maybe CoT could rival it). I got really bogged down by the political maneuverings and the vast amount of main and important characters' storylines. Additionally, when you compare this book's timeline to A Crown of Swords, it seems like it's taking forever for things to happen (aCoS takes place over a week, tPoD takes over a month). When you consider that much of that time is spent travelling (and I'm not talking about the One Power kind), or sitting around talking about going somewhere.... Granted, this book does a lot to set up for the conclusion of the story, but during the first read, it's a bit rough. My wife just finished this book a couple of weeks ago during her first read of WoT and she also found that one the most difficult to enjoy and comprehend. I guess it's like vegetables - not that great the first time, but you later come to appreciate their value.
-
Personally, I loved the Path of Daggers because of the political maneuverings. But, to each his own.
-
Joe, this is the book where you will really like and start looking forward to the Mat scenes.
-
It's Mat. Not Matt. Mat. Like a Doormat.
-
No matter what you call him, this is the book where he starts becoming awesome ;D
-
Update guys!
I finished The Dragon Reborn this morning. Awesome! Simply awesome! I liked it just as much as I liked the Great Hunt. Even though I didn't feel the story evolved a WHOLE lot, it had a great ending. I find myself really starting to care for these characters, especially Perrin. I know you all say this one is Mat's time to shine...and yes that's true.....I already liked Mat to begin with. Perrin was almost the whole first half of the book. Finding out more and more about being a wolfbrother is REALLY cool. I certainly was taking his side in his arguments with Moiraine and Lan. By the way, Moiraine was a real witch with a capital B in this book if you know what I mean. I understand she has serious responsibilities and Aes Sedai reputation to uphold.....but jeez lady lighten up. I like her most of the time....but why be so flippant and coy with Perrin and the others? It might have been because Perrin walked in on her naked....lol maybe.
Nyneave, Elayne, and Egwene's stories are becoming more interesting every time it switches to their viewpoint. I'm really starting to enjoy the back and forth between the three. It was GREAT to have Thom back in with the gang, and I thought he and Mat made a great team. Yes, Mat really did come into his own in this book. The scene where he whoops Gawyn and Galad with his quarterstaff had me smiling ear to ear!! Zarine was a welcome addition to the book (though I didn't feel that way at first) I REALLY like learning more about the Aeil. Most of all I liked was the ending. I was glad to see the characters all in the same place and it was a great battle with Rand finally getting Callandor. When he was chasing Ba'alzamon through dimensions was probably THE highlight of the book. Great resolution. Dying to know what happens next.
My complaints are few. The main one is.......Rand. He was not in this book very much, and when he was he was acting wierd the whole time. You mostly heard of him from Moiraine examining how he affected the lives of people from the towns he went through. All second and third hand information. I was happy to see him come through at the end but it was a long time coming. I suppose it was so other characters stories could be fleshed out.
Plus, like I said before, it is really frustrating to read Moiraine being so mean to Perrin. I like her but she was not forthcoming at all in this book. She doesn't seem sympathetic to what he's going through, or any of them for that matter. She almost seems annoyed that she has to deal with them. I think that's unfair. Oh well, Nyneave hates her and I have a feeling that those two will come to a head sometime soon. THAT I'd like to see. The two most b*tchy characters in the books hate eachother. Aes Seidai cat fight.......something I'd like to see.....from about a mile away.
Well, I am off to get my copy of Shadow Rising. I'm excited because so many of you have said it is your favorite book of the series. Thanks again for reading guys!! I appreciate it. I'll keep you updated. I'm very happy to be one of the WOT fans now, after looking in from the outside for so long! lol Later!
-Joe
-
By the way, Moiraine was a real witch with a capital B in this book if you know what I mean. I understand she has serious responsibilities and Aes Sedai reputation to uphold.....but jeez lady lighten up. I like her most of the time....but why be so flippant and coy with Perrin and the others? It might have been because Perrin walked in on her naked....lol maybe.
It's a common trait of Aes Sedai. Whether it's good or bad depends on who you ask (the White Tower will of course say it's good), but the training and society Aes Sedai go through has a rather strong tendency to produce that attitude.
Zarine was a welcome addition to the book (though I didn't feel that way at first) I REALLY like learning more about the Aeil.
Then you will REALLY like The Shadow Rising. There's a whole lot more to learn about the Aeil, and a huge chunk of it is in that book.
Most of all I liked was the ending. I was glad to see the characters all in the same place and it was a great battle with Rand finally getting Callandor. When he was chasing Ba'alzamon through dimensions was probably THE highlight of the book. Great resolution. Dying to know what happens next.
Only one dimension, really, and Rand was very lucky to have Callandor in that fight. That "dimension", which you will learn more about soon, has properties that Ba'alzamon knows very well and that would have allowed him to easily crush Rand in his ignorance if he hadn't been able to bring overwhelming strength to bear.
-
Joe - That's awesome you're now a fan! I can agree with your main complaint. Rand is hardly in the book at all. And the very few times you do get his POV he is pretty ... weird.
I recently got a little more insight into what Rand is going through in this book when I listened to a Podcast with Brandon Sanderson (http://www.dragonmount.com/Podcast/?p=73) over on Dragonmount.com (http://www.dragonmount.com). The Podcast discusses all 11 of the books, so DO NOT LISTEN TO IT IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE ENTIRE SERIES!
I'll try and summarize the insight they gave into Rand in TDR. I believe it was Brandon Sanderson who said on the Podcast that he heard that RJ compared what Rand goes through in TDR to what RJ went through when he went to war in Vietnam (becoming a killer or a weapon or something along those lines). Brandon mentioned that RJ doesn't like to bring up Vietnam and the experiences there very much, and since Rand was going through a similar thing in this book he just kind of didn't delve into the emotions too much because it's too hard to relive his Vietnam experiences. There's plenty of Rand POV chapters in book 4, but it's not quite the same Rand from books 1 & 2.
I hope I didn't butcher that explanation too much.
-
Thanks, that's a great insight...I will have to listen to the rest of the podcast! Glad you're enjoying the series, Joe.
-
Joe, glad you're enjoying the series (like we all knew you would).
I want to warn you, if you're like me you'll probably like Rand less and less as the series progresses. That is, he gets weirder and weirder. I think his character development is realistic and necessary, but as the story goes on, I begin to like other characters more and more in comparison, and to be glad when the POV switches away from Rand.
Moiraine, on the other hand, gets more likeable and more understandable soon. I think you'll love Egwene's development too - though you'll have to wait till book 11 for some of her best moments. Perrin and Faile (Zarine) have some cool stuff coming up too.
-
Joe, glad you're enjoying the series (like we all knew you would).
I want to warn you, if you're like me you'll probably like Rand less and less as the series progresses. That is, he gets weirder and weirder. I think his character development is realistic and necessary, but as the story goes on, I begin to like other characters more and more in comparison, and to be glad when the POV switches away from Rand.
Moiraine, on the other hand, gets more likeable and more understandable soon. I think you'll love Egwene's development too - though you'll have to wait till book 11 for some of her best moments. Perrin and Faile (Zarine) have some cool stuff coming up too.
Whaaa?! I can't stand Egwene or Elane, nothing happens in their POV (Egwene in book 11 aside).
Also, I've never like Parrin or Faile...book 9 and 10 were just painful!
-
Thanks for the responses. I got about 60 pages into Shadow Rising last night. Very good so far. I totally forgot about Min, she was missing completely from the end of TDR. Nice to see her back. I definitely see a lot of similarities between these books and Mistborn. I can see where Brandon must have gotten some inspiration. The way the magic is drawn upon, or the fast and furious fight scenes (although I think Brandon's take the cake.) I'm truly engrossed in the story now. Unfortunately, I have to avoid all websites WOT related. I went to ONE and my eye caught the title of a thread on their forum and it ruined something BIG for me that I imagine won't happen for a few more books. I don't want to discuss it I just wish I could forget it and enjoy the books and pretend like it never happened. I HATE that!! But I'll still go on because there are more things I want to find out for myself. Only after I've finished book 11 and caught up will I go back any of the WOT fan sites. For now, it's just me and the books. And of course, keeping you guys updated on my status. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been deleted! I figured people would get sick of me writing about reading the WOT, but I see a lot of excitement from you who have read the books and like seeing someone else get into them. THAT is a feeling I can relate to and as long as your interested I'll keep posting! Thanks guys!
-Joe
-
Whaaa?! I can't stand Egwene or Elane, nothing happens in their POV (Egwene in book 11 aside).
You don't think Egwene learns some important stuff from her experiences with the Aiel and, later, back with the Aes Sedai? You don't find her storyline there interesting? Well then, we disagree.
Also, I've never like Parrin or Faile...book 9 and 10 were just painful!
I wasn't talking about books 9 and 10. I was thinking of events Joe will encounter more immediately, in The Shadow Rising.
-
One of the things I really liked was when Mat and Thom are on the boat and everyone thinks Mat is a paid Tar Valon Assassin. LOL
Mat is cool and does not even realize it. He keeps wondering why all this stuff is happening to him, and does not realize the shadow is after him.
Agree that Egwene with the Aiel, and especially Egwene's trip to Salidar is great. Then she bogs down.
Perrin and Faile have some cool scenes early as well, but they really bog down. MAt just gets more and more interesting, IMWO.
enjoy the boods, I think you will like them a lot better reading them as a set and not having to wait 2 yeqars in between. I qm jealous!
-
I just want to thank Joe for inspiring me to begin my 10th read through.... :-) Finished Shadow Rising and will start LOC soon :-)
-
I just want to remind everyone that JoeC is reading this for the first time. So even though you might not mean them to be spoilers, just things like saying Egwene goes to Salidar are small spoilers even if JoeC doesn't know what they mean right now.
-
I just want to thank Joe for inspiring me to begin my 10th read through.... :-) Finished Shadow Rising and will start LOC soon :-)
I inspired?! Me? Wow, I didn't expect that. LOL I figured people would get tired of this thread fast. I'm happy to see people enjoying this thread as I am enjoying writing it. As much as it is a thread about me chronicling my own little WOT journey I hope it could also be a place where people come and talk about their experiences reading WOT. Thank you jjb for the reminder, I hope people can just keep it spoiler free when they post. Thanks again.
-Joe
-
I think it's always exciting to vicariously experience someones first reading of The WoT. :) Joe - continue to let us know where you are in the story. It's fun for us to remember the stories highlights and helps us to keep our posts spoiler free for you.
There's also a brand new blog on Tor.com that is doing a complete WoT re-read before the proposed fall 2009 release date of AMOL. This blog is meant for people who have already read the series and talks about some of the foreshadowing and stuff, so I can't recommend it for Joe. :( Sounds like at the rate Joe is going, he'll be done with book 11 soon anyway. ;)
Blog Intro: http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=11741
EotW Part I: http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=11783
-
One of the things I really liked was when Mat and Thom are on the boat and everyone thinks Mat is a paid Tar Valon Assassin. LOL
Mat is cool and does not even realize it. He keeps wondering why all this stuff is happening to him, and does not realize the shadow is after him.
Perrin and Faile have some cool scenes early as well, but they really bog down. MAt just gets more and more interesting, IMWO.
enjoy the boods, I think you will like them a lot better reading them as a set and not having to wait 2 yeqars in between. I qm jealous!
You remind me why I love the Wheel of Time :)
-
Joe, we can't get enough of this! You're on my favorite book. I think all the characters improve in the re-reading... at least for me they did. Or re-listening. I do recommend the audio versions while doing dishes.
-
Joe, we can't get enough of this! You're on my favorite book. I think all the characters improve in the re-reading... at least for me they did. Or re-listening. I do recommend the audio versions while doing dishes.
No life quite like the vicarious! :D
-
I'm currently on Path of Daggers in my latest read-through, and I randomly thought of something the other day. Maybe it was answered somewhere in the books and I just don't remember, but what would happen if a gateway was opened into the ocean, or other body of water? Would water start pouring through it? I think that could be an interesting way to throw off attackers... just wash them away.
-
I think that could be an interesting way to throw off attackers... just wash them away.
Possibly but it would be very tricky as the line of sight requirement to use the power would require the channeler to bein near approximity to the gate. A more interesting choice would be to open a gate, directly under the attacker, into inner space (the void).
-
or into outer space. Wrap yourself in a cocoon of air and attach yourself to something solid, then open a gateway into space and have vacuum suck everything in the room out to nothingness.
I think much like in the alien movie when the alien was sucked into vacuum, that might be best way to defeat a worm in the blight.
-
I've always wondered why, when someone does the revolving-gate thing against shadowspawn, most of the gates don't open underwater...
-
I always thought gates were "one way" - as in, the point of origin was the beginning and the destination point you could not enter
-
:shrug:
I definitely remember Rand commenting on how odd it would be for people to find hacked-off Trolloc limbs where the gates had deposited them. I don't really remember anything about the gates being one way only.
-
I've thought whether it would be possible to surround groups of Trollocs/Fades/bad-guys with gateways, then rain fire on them and force them through the gateways, where they would then end up either facing some monstrous force of in the middle of nowhere on like Tremalking or something.…
-
I've thought whether it would be possible to surround groups of Trollocs/Fades/bad-guys with gateways, then rain fire on them and force them through the gateways, where they would then end up either facing some monstrous force of in the middle of nowhere on like Tremalking or something.…
First, all the shadowspawn trollics, fades, etc.) would automaticly die upon entereting the gateways. So it would only apply to darkfriends. Moreover, its a rather complicated technique and you would have the obvious problem of having just invested an unprepared area with a lot of angry pissed-off darkfriends so any destination outside the blight or maybe the waste would be problematic.
-
I was thinking more of an ambush-type thing…not in the middle of a full-blown battle. But I see your point.
-
Can we keep this thread spoiler-free for Joe? I don't think he knew about gateways yet, surely not the revolving type. Thanks.
-
Thanks SarahG. No I don't know what gateways are yet, but I guess it's not far away.
Well, I'm a little over 200 pages in and this book is awesome. The best so far. The scene where EVERYBODY battles Fades and Trolloc's in the Stone of Tear was awesome. Rand's quick battle with Lanfear was the highlight for me. I think he would have won if he hadn't left Callandor in his room. At least he got it eventually and then WOW, he can really use that thing. Exellent scene, followed by a sad but also great scene where Rand is so upset he tries to bring a girl back to life using Callandor while Moiraine is telling him he can't. Very tense scene! At least they've had some funny scenes, like Rand using the One Power to pinch Egwene on the bum. Then Elayne does it back to him a lot harder. I'm enjoying Rand learning more and more about the power and how to use it (because the reader learns as Rand learns) I'm starting to take back what I said about Moiraine in the last post. She's actually dropped some lines in this book that hint at her motivations and her desire to help. Perrin is heading back to Two Rivers with Faile, Loial, and some Aiel. Faile is the one with the attitude problem now. She's making Perrin's life miserable with her squabbling with Berelain( where the hell did SHE come from?! lol) over his love. Mat wants to leave but can't. I feel for Mat, he feels like he's just been plopped down in the middle of things but I KNOW his role is more important. He went into the doorway to ask the questions and was given a destination. Very funny scene when, after he exits, Rand and Moiraine come out and she yells at both of them. Neither knew the other was in there. Let's see what else:
-Lan kissed Nyneave (didn't see that coming)
-Rand kissed Elayne (been waiting for that)
-Min works directly for the Amyrlin now, she's grown her hair out and wears a dress for a disguise
-Rand inadvertantly causes weird things to happen (reflections coming to life trying to kill him)
Man, a lot has happened so far in this book and I'm barely a third of the way through. Very exciting! I can't wait to read more and I will keep you guys updated! Thanks again!
-Joe
-
I especially like how Mat ends up with answers so very different from anything he intended and, in the rush to get him out because of two ta'veren being there at once, he ends up with more than three answers (I think), all of which seem like nonsense to him and only the first has any relation to what he'd planned to ask.
And you haven't even gotten to the best part yet. The definitively best scene in the whole book (imo) is coming up fairly soon.
-
Sorry Joe, I probably should've added spoilers to that post.
But honestly, what does that spoil? Its a killing technique of the one power. It would be like spoiling something by saying SPOILERS that some people can cause the earth to explode beneath their enemies' feet. SPOILER
If it had anything to do with the plot, sure I could see that. For example some techniques learned by Nynaeve or Egwene could probably be called spoilers...but I think gates of death are ok.
-
Joe, keep sharing. It's easy to remember the really awesome scenes like the battle in the stone culminating with Rand and the little girl, but your posts also remind me of the many merely awesome scenes in the books, LOL.
-
That, my dear Shaggy, is what we call a spoiler.
-
I love the scene where Rand and Logain and a bunch of people like that are in that random manor house and then the hordes of Trollocs and Fades come and attack…and Lews Therin takes control and uses all of that really cool stuff…the new weaves and stuff.…
Um.....I haven't quite gotten there just yet.
-
Shaggy, please do not ruin the new fan's first read-through of the series by revealing plot points before he gets to them. It is extremely rude.
JoeC, maybe you should see if you can edit the thread title to add a "NO SPOILERS" request.
-
Yeah, and probably some of us can move Wheel of Time discussion not directly related to the purpose of this thread to a different topic. ;)
-
SORRY!!!!!! I completely screwed up I'm really, really sorry.…
-
its ok Shaggy, just dont tell them about my cameo in in book 11 with the aliens...
-
Haha :D I promise I won't :P
-
No problem Shaggy. I guess I can edit my first post to let people know. I made it past page 300 last night! They are in Rhuiden (sp?) Mat and Rand are having some VERY odd adventures there. I found the scene where Rand was seeing important events in Aeil history very confusing. I kind of got it, but I kind of didn't, you know? Maybe it will be better explained later. I really wish he didn't leave Callandor in the stone of Tear. I feel like something bad will happen. Egwene, Nyneave, and Thom set off for Tanchico and I haven't heard about Perrin since he left for Two Rivers. Not much to update. I guess this is the part of the book where everybody goes their separate ways and has their own adventures. I like learning more about the Aeil, even though they are very confusing too. I wish RJ explained their style and culture more thoroughly as you experience it in the book. Much like how Brandon did with the kandra. I like when authors make new cultures, just not when we are thrust into that culture as if we already know how they live and why they speak the way they do. It's a little frustrating at times but there's no way I'm getting down on this book. It's getting very exciting. Thanks again guys!
-Joe
-
You're at a good point in the story, Joe. Kind of a turning point with the Rhuidean stuff and everything, I guess. :)
-
Joe,
Hang in there. Rhuidean was pretty rough for me the first time around too. It gets clearer, and I find on subsequent re-reads its one of my favorite points in the story. Don't worry you'll be back with Perrin soon and it's WELL worth the wait!
I'm just about to start FoH but can't cause of too much other stuff going on. Arrrggghhhh!!!! Maybe I will anyway ;-)
-
JoeC,
Things are going to get very interesting from here. I would suggest re-reading the Ter'Angreal scenes in Rhuidean, and compare them to the current Aiel way of life, and then consider why the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones allow Tinkers such free reign. Remember, what Rand experienced was the test for someone to become a Clan Chief, and Culadin's brother didn't do so well. Why do you think what he saw would be so hard for an everyday Aiel to accept?
As for RJ's limited info on the Aiel, you will discover that it is necessary to be broken in to their culture slowly.
-
Ummm…shouldn't we just let him read the thing??
-
I always thought gates were "one way" - as in, the point of origin was the beginning and the destination point you could not enter
Rand kept a gate open that a a certain person created, and went back through it later. That was in book... I don't know, 5 or 6. I think.
-
I found the scene where Rand was seeing important events in Aeil history very confusing. I kind of got it, but I kind of didn't, you know?
Go back and read it again, and pay particular attention to the names of the viewpoint characters. You are not seeing "assorted important events in Aiel history," you are seeing an account of the origins of the Aiel in reverse order. Each person you see a memory of is mentioned or present as an old relative in the previous memory. The account stretches from the founding of Rhuidean and the establishment of the principle trial Aiel chiefs must go through (note the Aes Sedai present for that; she is old enough to personally remember most, if not all, of the events shown in this sequence), back through the trip to the Aiel Waste, further back to the abandonment of the Way of the Leaf, through the desperate search for safety in the chaos of the Breaking of the World, through the devastation caused by insane male Aes Sedai and the attempts to deal with it, through the end of the War of Power, and finally all the way to the creation of the Bore, the hole in the Dark One's prison that allows him to touch the world. I found it an incredibly tragic story that almost brought me to tears, and a lot of what it reveals is completely new.
It also has quite a few references to other things you should already know, and it's interesting to pick those out.
-
Wouldn't it be nice if we just let the guy read the freaking book??
-
He mentioned that he found the scene confusing and didn't really get it very well, and I consider that particular scene extremely important (you know that "best scene in the book" I mentioned on the end of page 11 of this thread? This is it imo). I was just trying to clear up his confusion. This is not a scene that is supposed to be confusing when you first read it, so trying to fix his confusion doesn't spoil anything and seems a nice thing to do.
-
Oh, OK. But still. We all figured it out. I'm sure Joe can.
-
it makes more sense on a 2nd read-through of the series. names and such...
-
But he's not done with the series yet.
-
For that scene? I don't recall any of the names in any of those memories being mentioned anywhere else in the entire series. Well, except the names of certain Forsaken, but the ones before they received their current monikers aren't really important to understanding the scene and the one after is well known long before this.
Also, I had no trouble understanding it perfectly the first time.
-
OK. Let's stop this pointless discussion.
-
So, how is the book coming?
-
Update! I'm on page 529 now. Sorry for the delay but this is a long friggin' book and I have two jobs!
Well Rand and Mat are in the Waste and now they are heading to call a meeting of all the Aeil tribes to come together. This is easier said than done because many of the tribes don't get along, plus they're not all happy about Rand because the prophecy says he'll destroy them. Very interesting how a race of people so dedicated to prophecy would get so upset when it comes true. I actually really liked this. Their religion comes in conflict with their feelings. Worth thinking about. I'm back to liking Rand. I understand that he has a a lot on his shoulders and I'm very curious to see how he'll unite the tribes. Mat is still the man. I've liked him from day one and he still remains the most down to Earth character. Perrin and Faile are in Two Rivers and have had some nice battle scenes there too! He just made a pact with the Whitecloaks (who were initially there to find him and kill him) to hold off their feud until the Trollocs are dealt with. I'm DYING to know how this plays out. I'm seeing a lot of growth in Perrin and he truly is becoming a leader. I'm warming up to Faile, though girls who play games like she does tend to be difficult to like. Nyneave, Elayne, and Thom are in Tanchico. They introduced a couple new characters here. For a whole chapter I was lost. I had no idea who anybody was or what they were talking about. Eaginin just rescued them from some thieves so I guess I see some kind of friendship there. I honestly don't know what they plan on doing about the Black Ajah. If you ask me, they came a little unprepared. Now.....the last scene I read...was the one of the best scenes in the entire series. Lanfear totally totally schooled Nyneave and Elayne in the use of the Power. They thought it was Liandran and were all ready to capture her and then Lanfear walked in and she is so powerful that they were helpless. Somehow she managed to make Nyneave and Elayne completely under her control (Spirit??) and made them tell her everything!! Why they were there and who they were with...now she knows it all!! LOL VERY great scene. I have no idea what they are going to do now. This book is getting better and better, though I wouldn't put it above Dragon Reborn just yet. This is a LONG book and some parts carry on. Again I'm sorry my update took so long. I was just planning to do an update when I finished but that might not be for another week and a half. I appreciate your comments and your patience!! I'll be back to work on the book soon enough!
-Joe
-
Lanfear totally totally schooled Nyneave and Elayne in the use of the Power. They thought it was Liandran and were all ready to capture her and then Lanfear walked in and she is so powerful that they were helpless. Somehow she managed to make Nyneave and Elayne completely under her control (Spirit??) and made them tell her everything!! Why they were there and who they were with...now she knows it all!! LOL VERY great scene.
I thought it was Moghedian.
-
Quote from: JoeC on Today at 06:35:56 PM
Lanfear totally totally schooled Nyneave and Elayne in the use of the Power. They thought it was Liandran and were all ready to capture her and then Lanfear walked in and she is so powerful that they were helpless. Somehow she managed to make Nyneave and Elayne completely under her control (Spirit??) and made them tell her everything!! Why they were there and who they were with...now she knows it all!! LOL VERY great scene.
I thought it was Moghedian.
I thought it was, too.
-
It is Moghedien, using Compulsion. I'm sure we all get some of the hundred important characters mixed up sometimes.
-
I know; I'm just pointing it out.
-
Lanfear totally totally schooled Nyneave and Elayne in the use of the Power. They thought it was Liandran and were all ready to capture her and then Lanfear walked in and she is so powerful that they were helpless. Somehow she managed to make Nyneave and Elayne completely under her control (Spirit??) and made them tell her everything!! Why they were there and who they were with...now she knows it all!! LOL VERY great scene.
I thought it was Moghedian.
Whoops! I don't even know who that is yet. LOL I re-read it and they actually don't mention the character by name, I just figured it was Lanfear because it was female and had superb control of the power and talked of the other Forsaken. My mistake guys!
-
No problem.
-
No biggie, JoeC. You'll get to know more of the Forsaken in the next few books. You'll notice that each has their own style---Lanfear hangs out in the World of Dreams and is psycho about Lews Therin, and Moghedien likes to hide and uses Compulsion, Ishmael thinks he's the next thing to the Dark One, etc. RJ does a great job of making a lot of unique villains. Glad you are enjoying the books so far. I'm excited to hear what you think of the ending of this book.
-
Yeah, you have to keep in mind that there are a full 13 Forsaken and several of them are female. This is, I think, the first appearance of a female Forsaken other than Lanfear, so it's not too surprising you just assumed it was her, but keep that in mind for the future.
As for Nynaeve + Elayne vs the Black Ajah... when have those two ever been prepared for anything? ::)
Oh, did our comments help at all with your understanding of the Rhuidean history sequence?
-
Whoops! I don't even know who that is yet. LOL I re-read it and they actually don't mention the character by name, I just figured it was Lanfear because it was female and had superb control of the power and talked of the other Forsaken. My mistake guys!
No, I'm sorry that I spoiled something for you. I thought you mixed them up but I will be more careful in the future not to get ahead of where you are. Even those of us who have read it multiple times can't recall everything. In fact every time I re-reread the books and read message boards I learn more. It's like an onion with layer upon layer.
-
Just remember Moggy has numerous honey colored braids and Lanfear has free flowing straight black hair. That ought to help *heh*
Can't wait for you to finish this book as it was one of my personal favorites.
-
I am trying to remember exactly where you are in the book. Have Rand and Co. been to Cold Rocks Hold yet?
On a separate note, as someone who enjoys target shooting, this book begins to show how unbelievably awesome the Two Rivers people are with bows, especially Tam Al'Thor and Abell Cauthon.
-
Oh, did our comments help at all with your understanding of the Rhuidean history sequence?
Yeah, kind of. I think I may have to go back and re-read that more carefully.
I am trying to remember exactly where you are in the book. Have Rand and Co. been to Cold Rocks Hold yet?
On a separate note, as someone who enjoys target shooting, this book begins to show how unbelievably awesome the Two Rivers people are with bows, especially Tam Al'Thor and Abell Cauthon.
I JUST got to Cold Rock's Hold last night. Yes Tam and Abell have certainly proven themselves against the Trollocs defending the Two Rivers. I have the feeling that there's a lot more to learn about Tam.
-
I have the feeling that there's a lot more to learn about Tam.
Yeah, like where he got that genuine Power-wrought heron mark sword he gave Rand way back in TEotW. Not exactly a typical possession of a rural farmer.
I don't remember when Tam's history gets revealed, but I don't think it's much of a spoiler to say that he earned it.
-
Tam's history is still pretty vague. I heard that it might be the subject of a prequel novel, if those ever happen.
-
Quote from: JoeC on Today at 06:10:47 PM
I have the feeling that there's a lot more to learn about Tam.
Yeah, like where he got that genuine Power-wrought heron mark sword he gave Rand way back in TEotW. Not exactly a typical possession of a rural farmer.
I'm pretty sure that's just happenstance…or fate…or the Creator/Pattern doing whatever. I think the man he bought it from didn't even know what it was.
-
Wasn't Tam mentioned in A NEW SPRING?
-
Just remember Moggy has numerous honey colored braids and Lanfear has free flowing straight black hair. That ought to help *heh*
I'm still trying to figure out if you are A) joking, B) trying to throw them off the scent, or C) mis-remembering.
-
Quote from: JoeC on Today at 06:10:47 PM
I have the feeling that there's a lot more to learn about Tam.
Yeah, like where he got that genuine Power-wrought heron mark sword he gave Rand way back in TEotW. Not exactly a typical possession of a rural farmer.
I'm pretty sure that's just happenstance…or fate…or the Creator/Pattern doing whatever. I think the man he bought it from didn't even know what it was.
I'm pretty sure Tam is a legit blademaster. Don't want to give too much away but he was the one who taught Rand the Flame and Void technique.
-
Comfortable Madness,
You are correct. The big question I have regarding the blade (forgive me if it's a spoiler) is why Tam got such a special blade, (See Lan description at beginning of TGH), and what path that blade traveled to arrive at Rand Al'Thor.
-
We do know a little bit about him. He served with the Golden Bees in Illian and rose to a high rank there, if I recall correctly. That would explain the swordmaster abilities, if not power-wrought blade.
-
Psst, remember that this is supposed to be a spoiler-free thread. That's not a very big spoiler, but still.
-
This is not a spoiler free thread. We just have to make sure we don't go past the book the TC is on. I am looking forward to finding out if JoeC is as clever as Rand. You are on the brink of a pretty big reveal. I didn't see it coming the first time through. ;)
-
I believe Moiraine gives the information about Tam in the first book. In any case, it's not extremely relevant to the plot.
-
I'm pretty sure Tam is a legit blademaster. Don't want to give too much away but he was the one who taught Rand the Flame and Void technique.
I know that, but I don't see how his being a blademaster necessarily has a connection to the power-wrought blade.…
-
Update! Finished Shadow Rising this morning. VERY satisfied.
Although a lot of it went on too long, this book was an overall very very good read. Luckily for me I bought Fires of Heaven at the same time I bought SR so I can't start on it right away tonight at work. (Ooooh I bet all you people that had to wait between books must really hate me LOL)
Okay. Perrin successfully lead the Two Rivers people to victory over the Trollocs and the Fade's. Perrin is truly growing and I honestly felt bad for him when he sent Faile away because he didn't expect to win this fight. When she came back with the people of Devin Ride, oooh boy THAT'S devotion! LOL. Very good battle scenes, although I do prefer more descriptive fight scenes like Brandon's, I did enjoy this one. The drama with Perrin and the Whitecloaks actually got interesting. Despite all he has done they still call him Shadowspawn. Perrin would have actually turned himself in after the battle...IF they helped. But they didn't so he didn't. Yet, the fact that he would keep his word even if it meant his death was a true indication that he is the best developed character in these books so far IMHO. I'm glad he and Faile got married too.
Nyneave and Elayne successfully infiltrated the Panarch's palace. Elayne schooled one of the Black Ajah who was making Amathera sing dirty songs (man oh man are they cruel) buy surprising her and tying her up with air. Nyneave battled Moghedian in one of the best scenes of the book!! I really didn't see this coming, and even less did I see Nyneave winning this fight. She really is powerful when she's angry!! She almost stilled a Forsaken!! BTW I'm really loving the personality differences between the Forsaken and I'm glad they are not all fanatic drones. Some even have their own plans (Lanfear is sneaky!) So Nyneave managed to get the bracelets and necklace that could leash a male who can channel. She wants to throw it in the deepest part of the ocean and I really hope she does because I don't want to see that thing around Rand's neck. They all got away on Domon's ship. I wish they could have captured or killed some Black Ajah. They are certainly still a concern now that they're all still out there. I think one did kill herself with the balefire te'rangal.
Rand revealed the truth to the Aiel in front of the clan chiefs. They were ALL Tinkers back in the day. I got that when I re-read Rand's journey in Rhuiden. THAT'S why that other Aeil in there with him was clawing his eyes out. I honestly don't think that was the smartest move on Rand's part, at least not this early. But, the cat's out of the bag now. Couladin (sp?) was a surprise when HE claimed to be the Dragon. Where did he get the dragons on his arm btw??? Oh well. Rand proved he was the one with probably the best scene in the book!! Making it rain??! I never thought of that!! The Aiel worship water and I never figured to use the power to bring it to them. Then he made some kind of bubble around himself and Lanfear showed up. She was NOT happy that he had ruined her plans (still not sure exactly what they are). When he hears of Asmodean in Rhuiden he opens a door with the power and chases after him. I think this is the Traveling Weave that they talked about, but I'm not sure because they didn't call it that.
Anyway, the fight between Rand and Asmodean in Rhuiden was awesome!! It's a shame all those te'rengals got destroyed but Rand has surely improved his mastery of the Power. When Rand and Asmodean are both holding the te'rengal and dueling with the Power was intense!! Luckily, Rand had the little te'rengal in his pocket to give him just the slightest edge. After almost gentling Asmodean (again a Forsaken defeated!!) Lanfear shows up and actually convinces Rand to keep him alive and actually as a teacher!!! This I would not do. Not for all the knowledge in the world! Bad bad idea. This is a guy who has had incredible power for thousands of years and is all of a sudden defeated and becomes a servant basically?? No way. You know this guy will be plotting and scheming to get his revenge. I guess it's up to Rand to remain one step ahead of him. VERY compelling. It's a shame that, when he returned to the Aeil, many of them had left with Couladin. I honestly don't know how he's going to solve this problem. Some of these Aeil will just not accept him.
There's so much more I could write but this is long enough LOL. I liked this book despite it's length. The characters and the situations have really evolved. Some very unexpected things have happened. Elaida stilled the Amyrlin!!! Ooooh I can't wait to find out Moiraine's reaction when she finds this out. I know her and Siuan Sanche are old friends. Not enough of Min in this book BTW. I like her. I'm glad she's helping Siuan but I don't know what they can do about the White Tower.
I'm actually going to take Moiraine's side on her little tiffs with Rand. None of the three boys trust her, and their distrust borders on hatred. I understand they feel that she plucked them from their cozy lives and brought them into this and hopes to control them. I understand they are worried about being lapdogs for the White Tower. I truly don't feel that is her intention. The scene where she tells Rand "I want you to confide in me. I want to help you." was kind of sad. Moiraine is actually opening up to him (took her long enough) and I really get the sense that she fights for his best interest and the best interests of the world. I personally would tell her everything. About the dreams, Lanfear, all of it. She is a strong character and would truly be an anchor for someone in as difficult a position as Rand is in. She could help with his confusion. Though, I admit, she does need to be more forward and stop with the riddles and games. Aes Sedai or not, if she wants cooperation she should give it to. I see stubbornness on both sides.
Well, this has gone on long enough lol. Once again I'm glad you guys are enjoying this thread and I know many of you have been waiting for my opinion on this book so here it is!! I've got plenty to say about it as it was a LONG book so if any of you have any questions feel free to ask. I'm going to go ice my fingers now, they're numb! LOL. Have a good day!
-Joe
-
Ahhhhh, I really liked that book. I should go read it again.
Perrin really shines in this book and the next few. He was one of my favorite characters in this section of the story, besides Mat.
Asmodean is awesome!! His scenes are really fun.
-
I like Demandred the best of the Forsaken, personally.…
-
Ooooh I bet all you people that had to wait between books must really hate me LOL
Yes, that is by far the worst part of the whole series. We will all be gloating quietly when you finally finish Knife of Dreams and have to join us in waiting for A Memory of Light. ;)
BTW I'm really loving the personality differences between the Forsaken and I'm glad they are not all fanatic drones. Some even have their own plans (Lanfear is sneaky!)
"Some"? Try "almost all". They all have their own reasons for serving the Dark One, they are all ambitious, and there can only be one top dog...
Rand revealed the truth to the Aiel in front of the clan chiefs. They were ALL Tinkers back in the day. I got that when I re-read Rand's journey in Rhuiden. THAT'S why that other Aeil in there with him was clawing his eyes out.
Yep. The Aiel call Tinkers "Lost" because the Tinkers broke the Second Covenant - to guard the immense cache of ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal that (mostly) ended up in Rhuidean. The Tinkers call the Aiel "Lost" because the Aiel broke the First Covenent, which was to keep the Way of the Leaf. Only the Jenn Aiel kept both, and they died out long ago, not too long after the very first scene in the Ruidean history sequence.
A more full and detailed explanation of that sequence if you care to read it is at the bottom of the post.
Where did he get the dragons on his arm btw???
Asmodean gave them to him to provide a distraction for Rand. It's an easy detail to miss as I recall, but it is mentioned somewhere in there.
I think this is the Traveling Weave that they talked about, but I'm not sure because they didn't call it that.
Close. There are two major move-long-distances weaves, and this is the other one. The official name and their differences are explained fully not too much further into the series.
This is a guy who has had incredible power for thousands of years and is all of a sudden defeated and becomes a servant basically?? No way. You know this guy will be plotting and scheming to get his revenge.
Not really. As Forsaken go, Asmodean is rather tame. He tells Rand he turned to the Dark mainly for the immortality so he could continue studying and composing music for all eternity, not for the power, and Lanfear has personally made certain that any other Forsaken will kill him out of hand if he tries to go back. And, well, Rand NEEDS to learn to channel well and there is quite literally no other option available for that.
Elaida stilled the Amyrlin!!!
I'd forgotten exactly when that happened. Major event, major repercussions, and the first really significant action by one of my favorite characters to hate. I'm sure you'll understand why as the series continues.
I'm actually going to take Moiraine's side on her little tiffs with Rand. None of the three boys trust her, and their distrust borders on hatred. I understand they feel that she plucked them from their cozy lives and brought them into this and hopes to control them. I understand they are worried about being lapdogs for the White Tower. I truly don't feel that is her intention. The scene where she tells Rand "I want you to confide in me. I want to help you." was kind of sad. Moiraine is actually opening up to him (took her long enough) and I really get the sense that she fights for his best interest and the best interests of the world. I personally would tell her everything. About the dreams, Lanfear, all of it. She is a strong character and would truly be an anchor for someone in as difficult a position as Rand is in. She could help with his confusion. Though, I admit, she does need to be more forward and stop with the riddles and games. Aes Sedai or not, if she wants cooperation she should give it to. I see stubbornness on both sides.
Moiraine is really an exceptional Aes Sedai. She has learned some harsh lessons from traveling with Rand that most Aes Sedai wouldn't even recognize, chief among them that maybe she really doesn't know best and that the Dragon Reborn needs to do some major free moving and shaking up of the world long before Tarmon Gai'don. Some of the more extreme Aes Sedai want to essentially put him in a cage until the Last Battle, go on as if he doesn't exist, and bring him out just for the battle itself. That is, obviously, not going to work.
Mandein goes to Rhuidean and is the first to undergo the new test for clan chiefs. This scene serves mainly as a starting point.
Rhodric: The Jenn Aiel have not yet crossed the Dragonwall into the Aiel Waste. Rhodric is a familiar Aiel, armed, dangerous, and veiled. The Aiel are serving as escorts for the peaceful Jenn. A town is actually allowing the Aiel to draw water freely, an unheard of kindness and act of generosity for the Aiel.
Importance of scene: The descendants of this town eventually found Cairhien, and much later the Aiel figure this out and pay them back with Avendoraldera and permission to cross the Aiel Waste, two priceless gifts. King Laman later cuts down Avendoraldera to make a throne for himself, triggering the Aiel War in which four clans cross the Dragonwall specifically to kill Laman. The final battle of that war was on the slopes of Dragonmount, where Rand was born.
Jeordam: Grandfather of Rhodric. A group of Jenn Aiel come to Jeordam's camp with a tale of kidnapped children. One of them is a woman, and she insists on helping with the recovery raid.
Importance of scene: This is the beginning of the Maidens of the Spear. This is also where the short spear used as the primary Aiel weapon is first made.
Lewin: Jeordam's father. His sister and some others have been kidnapped. The true Jenn Aiel way to deal with this is to just accept it and move on. Lewin and company refuse to do so, and end up killing the kidnappers only to be rejected on their return.
Importance of scene: This is the beginning of the Aiel as opposed to the Jenn Aiel, and the first abandonment of the Way of the Leaf. The wording of the rejection is the origin of the Aiel custom of putting on veils before killing.
Adan: Lewin's grandfather. Bandits have attacked the caravan. Some reminisce about the Age of Legends, the powerful songs in tales, and scoff at the uselessness of their task of guarding a bunch of relics of the one power, then leave.
Importance of scene: This is where the Tinkers split off from the Aiel.
Adan again: Younger this time. The Aiel encounter some Ogier. They exchange some news, and learn that Myrddraal and Trollocs still exist and that the Blight is growing. There is also mention of an Aes Sedai who claimed that Ishamael is not fully trapped.
Importance of scene: The beginning of the Ogier Longing. Ever since this time, Ogier who stay outside a stedding for too long suffer crippling mental breakdown. This scene also places some emphasis on the importance of the Way of the Leaf to the Aiel and mentions the volatility of geography at the time, placing it as during the Breaking of the World.
Jonai: Adan's father. He is in a major Age of Legends city, enters the Hall of the Servants, and observes some discussion among Aes Sedai.
Importance of scene: Callandor is here. The Aes Sedai who made the Foretellings that are collectively called the Prophecies of the Dragon is here. Time is short because two powerful male Aes Sedai who have been driven insane by the taint are on their way to the city and will certainly destroy it soon after arrival. A group of young and inexperienced, but not yet insane, male Aes Sedai is mentioned. This group will assist the female Aes Sedai present in creating the Eye of the World and the wards around Callandor. The last of the Nym, Someshta, is also there and becomes the Green Man later. The gigantic collection of objects of the one power that ends up in Rhuidean is entrusted to the Aiel here, and they are charged with both protecting it and keeping the Way of the Leaf.
Coumin: Jonai's father. He is a young boy participating in a planting ceremony involving Someshta and a strange and powerful song. He receives news from a soldier, and finds his great-grandfather hanged.
Importance of scene: This is The Song that the Tinkers are seeking. This is also very shortly after the Sealing of the Bore. This could be said to be the moment the War of Power ended and the Breaking of the World began. This also shows a violent attitude towards Aiel by some.
Charn: Coumin's great grandfather. He is the servant of an important Aes Sedai and sees the result of a catastrophic experiment.
Importance of scene: This scene shows what Da'shain Aiel life was like originally, way back in the Age of Legends before the Dark One was doing anything. More importantly, however, it is the creation of the Bore, the hole in the Dark One's prison that allows him to touch the world. Also, this plus a few references in the other scenes reveals that the legendary Tree of Life is but one of a kind of tree that was plentiful and grown everywhere in the Age of Legends. On another note, Mierin Sedai is Lanfear's original name.
-
OK, so I really have a hard time reading these books. I've started Eye Of The World like twelve times. I get to the town and the festival thing, or somewhere around there, and I just can't continue because I'm SO bored. >> HOW do you get through it?
-
I'm pretty sure Tam is a legit blademaster. Don't want to give too much away but he was the one who taught Rand the Flame and Void technique.
I know that, but I don't see how his being a blademaster necessarily has a connection to the power-wrought blade.…
Shags,
I did some digging and I found this on encyclopedia-wot:
"Mattin Stepaneos presents Tam al'Thor of the Illianer Companions with a One Power-crafted heron-mark sword. "
Which, I believe, is information give out by RJ at a book signing.
Oh and Myabi, just read a little past the festival part....after that there is an explosion of action.
-
Joe - thanks for that great post about The Shadow Rising! I think it is probably my favorite book in WoT. It's really fun reading a first timer's excitement about it. Thanks!
miyabi - Some people say that EOTW starts out a little slow. It picks up quite a bit after a few chapters. If you enjoy reading fantasy (or just huge complex stories) than I think you'll like WoT. If you have a hard time getting through the very beginning, then you might just have to force yourself to read through it. If you can't force yourself through, then you may just have to skip to chapter 5. That's where the "normal monotonous" stuff comes to an abrupt end. Winternight! But, I also have to warn you. You should avoid reading this thread until you're caught up with Joe. It's full of spoilers. You'll enjoy the books much more if you don't know where it's going.
-
OK, so I really have a hard time reading these books. I've started Eye Of The World like twelve times. I get to the town and the festival thing, or somewhere around there, and I just can't continue because I'm SO bored. >> HOW do you get through it?Listen to the audio book, while driving or doing graphic design work. And then start straight into book 2. That's my recommendation.
I think there are plenty of slow bits in Eye of the World until somewhere over halfway through.
-
Just remember Moggy has numerous honey colored braids and Lanfear has free flowing straight black hair. That ought to help *heh*
I'm still trying to figure out if you are A) joking, B) trying to throw them off the scent, or C) mis-remembering.
You mean she doesn't have honey colored braids? Could swear she did.
-
Liandrin has honey-colored hair. I believe Moghedian is blonde as well but I don't remember now.
Asmodean is not tame, he is just a coward. Lanfear reduces his power to a trickle, and Rand cut away the protection from the taint that the Dark One had given him, so he is now vulnerable to madness.
Not all the Aiel that left went with Couladin. Many of them simply have a breakdown and run off. Others decide to become GaiShain permanently. One thing Douglas' summary left out was the reason why Aiel do not use swords. The original group tried to get around the Way by using farming tools instead of swords as weapons.
I also thought EOTW started out slowly. You just have to plow through it. It will be worth it.
-
I'm pretty sure Moghedien has dark hair and dark eyes. She appears in several forms so it's hard to remember but I believe she has dark hair worn loose when she appears as herself and when she appears as Gyldin, in TSR, she has dark braided hair.
-
One thing Douglas' summary left out was the reason why Aiel do not use swords. The original group tried to get around the Way by using farming tools instead of swords as weapons.
Yeah, I think it was in Lewin's scene. After killing the kidnappers with wild surprise attacks swinging pots and such, someone with Lewin goes to take the bandits' weapons. When he goes to pick up a sword, Lewin scolds him and says that swords can only be used for killing people while spears can be used for hunting. Thus, swords are anathema but spears are fine.
The Jenn take a dim view of this distinction, of course, but it's one of the few remnants of the Way of the Leaf that remained with the Aiel.
-
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, JoeC. This is a fun thread.
-
Lanfear:
She is incredibly beautiful and graceful. She has pale, smooth skin, long, black hair and eyes dark as night. She dresses in white with silver jewelry. (TGH,Ch48) She is tall and slender with dark eyes and shoulder-length black hair.
Moghedien:
She is sturdily handsome with shoulder-length hair worn loose. She has large, dark eyes and smooth cheeks. (TSR,Ch46)
As Gyldin she is sturdily handsome and dark-braided. (TSR,Ch38)
(How about one more for good measure.)
Graendal:
She is beautiful but somewhat fleshy with elaborately curled red-gold hair. (LoC,Prologue)
From Encyclopedia-wot
I always picture Berelain as a blonde, but all of RJ's most beautiful characters, with the exception of Elayne, are described as dark-haired. And Elayne's is red-gold. I can't think of any true blondes in the whole book, but there must be some.
-
Birgitte and Liandrin are true blondes. Chiad I thought was but I guess it's strawberry-blonde. The Aiel and some people from Tanchico can be blonde. I usually picture the "red gold" people like Elayne as blondes since there are so few of them. It's really quite tragic. (As a blonde myself I notice things like this...) :)
-
Hey guys. I'm about 150 pages into Fires of Heaven and this one is turning out to be a great sequel to TSR. Let's see.....
- Prologue was good, but the meeting of the remaining Forsaken at the end was SUPER cool.
-Siuan, Min, Leane, and Logain managed to escape the trouble for accidentally burning down that barn. Not sure exactly where their story is going but it's still interesting to see how Siuan and Leane live without the Power.
-Most of the book so far has been about Rand. He lives in Rhuiden under close protection from the Maidens. The scene where he fights the Darkhounds that attacked him and Mat was GREAT. Very creepy at first too. Now, the scene I've finally been waiting for happened! In my last post I complained that Rand shouldn't shun Moiraine as much as he does. After he kills the Darkhounds they come to an understanding. They both apologize to eachother and promise to be more forthcoming. So happy this scene happened, as it will benefit Rand very much.
-Moiraine explains balefire to Rand. How it doesn't actually obliterate, but erases from time whatever it hits. Depending on how powerful the wielder is, the amount of time you actually erase the subject from changes. Erase too much, and other events linked to the victim are subject to change. Even the Forsaken rarely used it for fear of this. AWESOME concept. I'm glad it isn't just another sonic boom or some crap like that. It's nice how RJ didn't explain EVERYTHING about all the Powers in one book, but stretches it out over the series. That keeps the excitement up because it means there's a lot more to learn.
-Mat is injured by the Darkhounds and when Moiraine tries to heal him, his foxhead medallion absorbs the Power. Very interesting. A terengal that absorbs any attempted Power use on the bearer. I could definitely see uses in this, moreover I could see why Mat keeps it around his neck. Rand tells Moiraine not to take it from Mat even though she says it has to go back to the Tower to be studied. I'm glad Mat still has it.
-Side note: Seeing how popular that sexuality thread became, I just thought I'd point out the this book makes it pretty clear that Mat slept with the maiden named Melindhra. They were both alone and naked in bed when the Darkhounds attacked them. Bad timing.
-Apparently, Couladin has gathered quite an army and is traveling across the Waste to cross the Dragonwall to attack Carhein I think. Rand immediately makes it his mission to take his army and catch up with them.
-Sadly, no Perrin yet but I'm still early in the book.
BTW, I just want to thank all you guys for your responses. Especially douglas, whose post really helped me. You must have spent a long time on it and I appreciate it!
-
Its great to see it all from the perspective of someone whos never read the books before.. I started on them when i was about 13 (10yrs ago now) it was upto maybe book 6 at the time, i could be wrong though and have nothing against being corrected, and have re-read them basically each time a new book has come out. While re-reading is great it doesnt have the same excitement as reading them for the first time and not knowing whats gonna happen next.
Oh and on the blonde subject I always pictured Elaida as blonde, i thought she must have been described as blonde for me to get that idea but im re-reading at the moment and think i saw it being mentioned somewhere that shes brunette. Can anyone clear that up?
-
I thought Elaida was blonde, but I don't remember reading it anywhere specific.
-
- Prologue was good, but the meeting of the remaining Forsaken at the end was SUPER cool.
Let's see, at that point Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, and Ishamael are all dead and Asmodean is captive. Lanfear, Mesaana, Graendal, Semirhage, Moghedian, Demandred, Sammael, and Rahvin remain at large. Huh, now that I think about it it's rather interesting how the casualties are uniformly male at that point, and there are enough of them to reverse which gender holds the majority among the Forsaken.
-Siuan, Min, Leane, and Logain managed to escape the trouble for accidentally burning down that barn. Not sure exactly where their story is going but it's still interesting to see how Siuan and Leane live without the Power.
Four lonely travelers, no less than three of them stilled or gentled. Quite a reversal for the whole lot of them, yet they still manage to make something very interesting of it. Just wait a bit longer.
-Moiraine explains balefire to Rand. How it doesn't actually obliterate, but erases from time whatever it hits. Depending on how powerful the wielder is, the amount of time you actually erase the subject from changes. Erase too much, and other events linked to the victim are subject to change. Even the Forsaken rarely used it for fear of this. AWESOME concept. I'm glad it isn't just another sonic boom or some crap like that. It's nice how RJ didn't explain EVERYTHING about all the Powers in one book, but stretches it out over the series. That keeps the excitement up because it means there's a lot more to learn.
As I recall it is mentioned at some point that, for one year, both sides in the War of Power used balefire without restriction. At the end of that year, both sides unilaterally stopped using it roughly simultaneously without any discussion or agreement. Try to imagine Rand wielding Callandor and shooting the strongest beam of balefire he could straight at a city. Now think about the chaos that would result from an entire city being retroactively annihilated for multiple days in the past. That kind of damage on that scale is, apparently, capable of threatening the Pattern itself and potentially causing the end of the world if repeated enough times, and even the bad guys wanted the world to still exist so they could rule over it.
-Apparently, Couladin has gathered quite an army and is traveling across the Waste to cross the Dragonwall to attack Carhein I think. Rand immediately makes it his mission to take his army and catch up with them.
Four clans sought King Laman's head and no army Carhien and all its allies could field could stop them before they accomplished their goal and turned back of their own accord. Couladin and Rand between them are now leading all twelve clans across the Dragonwall. It's going to get messy. Fortunately, most of them are following Rand.
BTW, I just want to thank all you guys for your responses. Especially douglas, whose post really helped me. You must have spent a long time on it and I appreciate it!
Glad to be of assistance. 8)
-
Man, every time you post Joe its like, "now that is why I loved these books." Its very refreshing to hear what someone reading them for the first time has to say. The ending of this book is amazing, btw.
-
The ending of this book is amazing, btw.
I don't know, I think I prefer the ending of the next one. Dumai's Wells...
-
- Prologue was good, but the meeting of the remaining Forsaken at the end was SUPER cool.
Let's see, at that point Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, and Ishamael are all dead and Asmodean is captive. Lanfear, Mesaana, Graendal, Semirhage, Moghedian, Demandred, Sammael, and Rahvin remain at large. Huh, now that I think about it it's rather interesting how the casualties are uniformly male at that point, and there are enough of them to reverse which gender holds the majority among the Forsaken.
Hmmmmmm.....Ishamael??? Was he Ba'alzamon?? I know Rand thought he killed him at the end of Dragon Reborn but Moiraine said it wasn't him. That it was just a body, possibly one of the Forsaken. Is that who it was??
-
Yes, that was Ishamael. If you read the discussion among the Forsaken in The Fires of Heaven prologue closely that should be fairly obvious.
-
I thought Elaida was blonde, but I don't remember reading it anywhere specific.
"The tall chairback held the Flame of Tar Valon picked out in moonstones above her dark head as she sat." in the prologue of book 7. Im gonna have to look back to when rand first meets her to see if it says blonde, we must have gotten the blonde idea from somewhere
-
Yes, that was Ishamael. If you read the discussion among the Forsaken in The Fires of Heaven prologue closely that should be fairly obvious.
True enough! Thank you.
-
The ending of this book is amazing, btw.
I don't know, I think I prefer the ending of the next one. Dumai's Wells...
It depends on what you like for an ending, I think Joe will have a very good question at the end of tFoH. I know I can't wait.
-
Ah yes, that little mystery. Robert Jordan's statement that it's "obvious" has always amused me, and I will be very interested to see JoeC's reaction.
-
wasnt obvious to me :'( i still wanna know, apparently its revealed in the last book i saw Sanderson say in an interview lol thats if ur talking bout what i think ur talking about
-
Yes padywhak and douglas, that mystery.
BTW I've gotten one of my friend hooked into the WoT series so he's doing a reading through of it now as well. It is fun to get a fresh perspective on the story.
-
What mystery?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
-
The one section 1.1.6 of the Wheel of Time FAQ is about.
There, I think that was a sufficiently non-spoiler way to specify it.
-
Umm I feel like an idiot here, but…how do I get to that?? lol
-
Google it is thy friend, were talking about the ending of tFoH so we don't want to spoil JoeC.
-
The one section 1.1.6 of the Wheel of Time FAQ is about.
There, I think that was a sufficiently non-spoiler way to specify it.
brilliant thanks alot for that (apologies if that sounds sarcastic i am actually being serious) this is gonna be a great read
-
Melindhra is also a blonde. Hahaha I can't believe I remembered that (I looked it up to verify), but I couldn't tell who she was in my earlier post without giving away at least a bit of a spoiler because I didn't know if JoeC had read about her yet.
I always thought Elaida was a brunette, but I have seen fan art of her blonde...so it seems a lot of people think that. In all of the online encyclopedias of characters I've found, they don't say her hair color! Maybe it's an inconsistency.
JoeC, I love reading all of your comments. This is my favorite thread to read--so thanks for letting us all relive reading the books! :)
-
Yes JoeC has read about Melindhra so you didn't spoil anything *heh*
Yeah Elaida I believe has been debated on whether she's even black or white, sometimes the descriptions can be so vague I'm just not sure. Like Julin Sandor I don't know if he's supposed to be Hispanic, black or white with a really dark tan. I guess sometimes authors like to allow some vagueness to let the readers paint what the character looks like themselves.
-
iv always pictured juilin as black.. i thought the ebou dar ppl were more hispanic coz they're described with the olive skin where juilin is carved from dark wood, not literally of course lol that would be weird.
i just read the whole it where rand first meets elaida when he falls over the wall and it didnt even mention her eye colour let alone her skin or hair
-
That's what I thought originally as well but then there was a description about his hair being lanky, so it didn't fit the image. Plus I've always though that Tear was Spain with the armor descriptions.
I guess it's only important on what certain characters look like, like Rand and his whole Aiel heritage.
-
ebou dar can be rio de janeiro, a very dangerous city especially to go out in alone but they know how to throw a great street party lol
-
I thought Elaida was blonde, but I don't remember reading it anywhere specific.
"The tall chairback held the Flame of Tar Valon picked out in moonstones above her dark head as she sat." in the prologue of book 7. Im gonna have to look back to when rand first meets her to see if it says blonde, we must have gotten the blonde idea from somewhere
I think you can read about it in KoD (Knife of dreams). She have blod hair and alot of small braids. She have dark eyes.
I dont know in what PoW we get to know this, but its one of the Aes Sedai who looks at Elida and reflect of her hair when she looks out of a window. I think its after Alviarin have lost control over her, i think Egwene is in the tower at that moment. Infact, isnt it when they inform Elida about Egwens behavior in the tower?
I dont have the book to comfirm this, i only have the audiobooks and i dont want to spend hours to fint out for sure ;)
-
Shaggy, you might want to respect your fellow posters a bit more. The tense errors make me think that Casco might have learned English as a second language.
-
Interesting about the lack of description of Elaida as I never noticed that she was never described before. Even the Wikipedia page doesn't describe her except in general Aes Sedai tems. However, she is from Murandy as is Padan Fain and the Dabel Brothers graphic novels portrayed her as a light skinned brunette. Not sure but I would guess Robert Jordan saw those and would have shot anything down that was off.
-
Casco, please watch the spoilers. Any plot points after the beginning of The Fires of Heaven are off limits for this thread until after JoeC posts that he's gotten to them.
-
Oh sorry about that ! :( I will try to be more careful with exploiting the story.
Ye you are right, my english isnt the best in the world, its school english (im from Sweden) and im 42 years old :) 25 years take alot of grammar away from a language if you dont use it every day :) I hope you understand me anyway, im doing the best i can.
Back on Topic, I think Elidas looks is described in the book New Spring to, dont remember exactly where. Could it be when Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred was writing down names on children in the village outside Tar Valon? Elida arrive there with a Yellow sister and i think RJ describe her there.
I did read New Spring first, and i have allways "known" she did have blond hair after that book. It must be in there..
-
Oh sorry about that ! :( I will try to be more careful with exploiting the story.
Ye you are right, my english isnt the best in the world, its school english (im from Sweden) and im 42 years old :) 25 years take alot of grammar away from a language if you dont use it every day :) I hope you understand me anyway, im doing the best i can.
No problem! Learning Spanish in school has given me a lot of sympathy for people speaking in a non-native language...and English is harder to learn!
I too have this feeling in the back of my head that Elaida is blond. I'm not sure why that is.
-
Wow I feel like a total jerk…I'm really, really sorry, Casco–I don't know what was wrong with me that day (that wasn't the only insulting thing I said that day, as I'm sure some of you probably know). I'm really, really sorry–I didn't even consider that English was maybe your second language. Please accept my apologies.
I never thought of Elaida as blond; I don't know why. But now that we're having this discussion, it's weird–I can't even remember what color I thought her hair was.
-
I lissen to the english audiobooks now (half way past EotW now) and i will keep my eares up for any details on Elidas hair :) Im afraid the answer will come in the last book (KoD) though, so it will take some time :)
I could however listen to NS after EotW. I will se how i do.
Np Shaggy, it happens to us all :)
-
I have the EOTW audio book but could not bring myself to spend 50 each on all the others when I have the books as well. I always pictured her with dark hair in my head though. Not sure why.
-
Update guys! I'm on page 460 now. Almost done! I was going to wait until I finished but you guys seemed to be getting restless. Man you people are needy!! j/k
Okay. This is honestly my favorite book out of the series so far. No offense to all the people who said SR was their favorite. Maybe it's because SR set so many things up to be good!
Okay....
-Rand and all the Aeil tribes he's gathered have chased Couladin and his tribes all the way to Carhein.
-Aviendha has certainly evolved very much during these stories. Ran'ds camp is attacked by Darkfriends and she shoots fire out of her hands and kills a Drakghar to save Rand's life. Then, after Rand walks in on her naked, she somehow makes a Traveling weave and winds up in some arctic land. Rand saves her life and makes an igloo......and then they sleep together!! One of the best scenes of the entire series IMO. Aviendha telling Rand she can't hold back anymore...grabbing his hair...WOW. I kinda saw this coming, just not this soon. I bet she has some guilt with this and her friendship with Elayne. Then the two run into Seanchan at the gateway home. (Where the hell were they?) I liked this scene, but I did wish they saved the two damanes and killed the leader. I'm VERY interested to see where their story goes from here. Also, Asmodean showed that he really is Rand's friend by not closing the gateway even though he could have. This I didn't see coming. I keep looking for hints that he might betray Rand, but they're not there. I can't wait until Rand finally confronts Couladin. It is unfortunately taking a long time to get there.
-Suian, Min, Leane, and Logain have found the gathering of the Blues in Salidar. I'm glad that they're safe now. I had this bad feeling that something bad might happen to them before they got there. Gareth Bryne has arrived there too. I guess they think they are going to form some sort of army to take the Tower back, while simultaneously maintaining the illusion to the rest of the world that the Tower isn't broken. A tough task indeed. I like where this is going.
-Moghedian has personally taken control of the Black Ajah. WOW did she put Liandran in her place. I've been waiting to see that happen (although I wanted it to be Nyneave who did it...but this is cool too lol) Moghedian seems really ticked that Nyneave almost stilled her (wouldn't you be?) and really wants some revenge. Liandran was foolish to try battling Moghedian. This is a good storyline to follow. I'm loving the developments here.
-Nyneave, Elayne, Thom, and Juilen have taken up with with a traveling group of performers and are acting in the entertainment to hide until they can get to Salidar. They are also running from Galad because he is a Whitecloak now. I think it's hilarious that even Nyneave is struck by how good looking he is LOL. She says it's "unfair" how beautiful he is. I wish a girl would say that about me hahahahaha. Anyway, another great scene is the one where Moghedian interrupts Nyneave's meeting with Birgitte in the dream world. I honestly thought Nyneave was done for until Birgette shot Moghedian with an arrow. Awesome scene!!! Somehow Birgette is brought into the real world and Elayne saved her life by bonding with her to make Birgitte her Warder. Very interesting. Now, Birgitte entertains with the troup by shooting apples off Nyneave's head. Now THAT is a funny sight. Last, they are on there way to Salidar.
-Foolish Liandran tried to capture Moghedian after she woke up from the dream world with an arrow wound. Moghedian showed her who's who even though she was injured. She somehow blocked Liandran's access to the Power with a weave and tied it off. She didn't still her, but left it so that Liandran will have to find somebody skilled enough to untie that weave to ever touch the Source again. This scene left me breathless. I also have a new appreciation for how strong Nyneave is with the Power for overpowering Moghedian.
-Morgase realized she has been being manipulated and been forced to exile her allies. She escapes with Lini to find her TRUE allies and take back her crown. This is an unexpected storyline. Interesting though. I'd like to see how this pans out. Especially when she finds out that one of the Forsaken is responsible for all this LOL.
-Still no Perrin. I DO miss his storyline, but it isn't oppressive because I am enjoying everything else in this book so much.
I have more to say but this post is long enough already and I have to go eat supper. Again, I'll keep you guys updated and thank you for reading!! I appreciate your comments.
-Joe
-
Yay! A new post from Joe! Just a couple comments. Rand and Aviendha actually go to Seanchan. It's another continent across the ocean. You can see a map in the Wheel of Time encyclopedia book...anyone remember the exact title? Also, Moggy just uses a regular shield on Liandrin, but just ties it off in a super-complicated knot. So if she ever finds someone to unravel it, then she can channel again. What a great punishment for her :)
-
I bet she has some guilt with this and her friendship with Elayne.
You have no idea. Expect some interesting discussion when Aviendha and Elayne meet again.
Then the two run into Seanchan at the gateway home. (Where the hell were they?)
As melbatoast says, they went all the way across the Aryth Ocean to the Seanchan continent.
-Suian, Min, Leane, and Logain have found the gathering of the Blues in Salidar. I'm glad that they're safe now. I had this bad feeling that something bad might happen to them before they got there.
Well, it did, sort of. The whole run-in with Gareth Bryne was, on the face of it, pretty bad. His totally unexpected personal pursuit all the way to Salidar, though... A whole bunch of Aes Sedai planning a rebellion with no general, and one of the universally acknowledged Great Generals shows up on their doorstep...
She somehow blocked Liandran's access to the Power with a weave and tied it off. She didn't still her, but left it so that Liandran will have to find somebody skilled enough to untie that weave to ever touch the Source again. This scene left me breathless. I also have a new appreciation for how strong Nyneave is with the Power for overpowering Moghedian.
Very nasty punishment imo. Effectively stilling Liandrin, but leaving her just that tiny bit of hope that she might some day find someone able and willing to break that shield, strikes me as very sadistic.
-
Oh good it sounds like your almost there *grabs popcorn and starts munching away in anticipation*
Really glad your enjoying this book JoeC, it's my favorite as well and I was rather surprised by the Rand/Avi night in Seachan lands as well. Pretty hot really lol.
Please post here the instant you finish the book. *evil grin*
-
I love Liandrans punishment. She has the urge to channel but can't so she has to live with the itch for the rest of her life. By not stilling her she wont just waste away and give up on life. She can still sense the power she just can't touch it. This will prolong the punishment.
-
Joe, you passed me in my reread!! **Reaches over to steal some of Shard's popcorn** I can't wait for this reaction!!
-
LOL You guys are killing me with all these hints! I'm supposed to save the book for when I work my night shift job, but now I'm just about ready to spend my Friday night finishing it. And I have a date tonight!!! LOL Believe me guys, you will all be the first to know my reaction to the end of the book. You've all been a real help and I'm surprised at the warm welcome the WOT fans have for people like me.
More on Liandran: Her punishment is probably the cruelist thing for an Aes Sedai other than physical torture. I figured Moghedian would just kill her, but wow does she think up horrible punishments quickly. Now they are making her serve the owner of the house they are in......a male no less......a male she used to abuse and yell at. That's rough. However, I don't feel Liandran is done with just yet.
I'm VERY excited for the next meeting of Moghedian and Nyneave. First, Moghedian had full hatred for Nyneave and a desire to capture her alive and torture her for life. Now Nyneave feels the SAME because Moghedian almost killed Birgette and Nyneave feels responsible. Oooooooh I can just picture it lol.
BTW, that necklace that controls a male who can channel that Nyneave fought Moghedian for in SR....where is it? I know Nyneave asked Domon to take her to the deepest part of the ocean and let her throw it in there...but that never happened. Or did I miss something?? It hasn't said whether she still has it or not.
Forgot to mention that Uno and Mesema are back in the story. They're with Nyneave now. Blast from the past! I'm starting to see what everyone was talking about how characters disappear and come back later in other books....sometimes in larger roles than before.
Once again thanks for the feedback guys!!
-Joe
-
BTW, that necklace that controls a male who can channel that Nyneave fought Moghedian for in SR....where is it? I know Nyneave asked Domon to take her to the deepest part of the ocean and let her throw it in there...but that never happened. Or did I miss something?? It hasn't said whether she still has it or not.
She didn't tell him to take her there so she could do it, she gave it to him and told him to do it. It was last seen in Domon's possession and then went "offscreen" with him.
Forgot to mention that Uno and Mesema are back in the story. They're with Nyneave now. Blast from the past! I'm starting to see what everyone was talking about how characters disappear and come back later in other books....sometimes in larger roles than before.
I've seen it referred to as the Law of Character Conservation. Pretty much, if the story calls for someone in a particular role to appear on the scene and there is any reasonable way for a previously introduced character to fit, the previous character gets used. There are few exceptions in the entire series. If a character even has a name, there's a pretty high chance (s)he's going to come back later.
-
LOL You guys are killing me with all these hints! I'm supposed to save the book for when I work my night shift job, but now I'm just about ready to spend my Friday night finishing it. And I have a date tonight!!! LOL Believe me guys, you will all be the first to know my reaction to the end of the book. You've all been a real help and I'm surprised at the warm welcome the WOT fans have for people like me.
We always welcome new members to the fandom, the more the merrier I say. This really is my favorite book as well and I so do know about wanting to just finish it up but it can wait till after your date is over at least. lol Have fun man!
More on Liandran: Her punishment is probably the cruelist thing for an Aes Sedai other than physical torture. I figured Moghedian would just kill her, but wow does she think up horrible punishments quickly. Now they are making her serve the owner of the house they are in......a male no less......a male she used to abuse and yell at. That's rough. However, I don't feel Liandran is done with just yet.
I really thought the punishment quite creative myself really, some of the stuff RJ does to his characters for torture are really inspired stuff! I mean that just goes to show this series can be as dark as any other out there.
I'm VERY excited for the next meeting of Moghedian and Nyneave. First, Moghedian had full hatred for Nyneave and a desire to capture her alive and torture her for life. Now Nyneave feels the SAME because Moghedian almost killed Birgette and Nyneave feels responsible. Oooooooh I can just picture it lol.
Nynaeve is a funny character sometimes I feel sympathetic and other times not so much. It's interesting how she wants to accept responsiblity for this but not other things, blaming it on others. Well I do like Nyn more then I do Faile though.
BTW, that necklace that controls a male who can channel that Nyneave fought Moghedian for in SR....where is it? I know Nyneave asked Domon to take her to the deepest part of the ocean and let her throw it in there...but that never happened. Or did I miss something?? It hasn't said whether she still has it or not.
She gave the Necklace to Domon and then left, once again avoiding responsibility... So naturally this will be addressed later as well, either in book 6 or 7... I'm going to have to do my own re-read. *sigh* SO much happens its hard to keep track of it all and in which book it all happened.
Forgot to mention that Uno and Mesema are back in the story. They're with Nyneave now. Blast from the past! I'm starting to see what everyone was talking about how characters disappear and come back later in other books....sometimes in larger roles than before.
Once again thanks for the feedback guys!!
-Joe
Speaking of Nynaeve avoiding responsibility... Well Rand and Perrin do leave them behind there so eventually they had to come back up.
-
Ha! my son found a description of Elaida in LoC Chapter 7 page 206 (in the paperback).
"An unyielding stern-faced woman, handsome rather than beautiful, and dark of hair and eye, Elaida wore a blood-red dress, with the striped stole of the Amyrlin Seat about her shoulders."
So not blonde.
-
That's odd.…
-
From the mouth of babes.
-
I knew she had dark hair. I just didn't know how I knew. Most of the important characters are described at some point though so it had to be in there.
-
From the mouth of babes.
Wait…what?
-
From the mouth of babes.
Wait…what?
I believe Shard was referring to the fact that deathgate's son found the reference all of us adults had been wondering about.
-
Oh, OK. Sorry, I was a little confused there. ;D
-
Yep SarahG got it. :)
-
Haha sorry, Shard–I just got a little freaked out there for a second because you said that right after my post, so…lol never mind.
-
lol I see usually I think people hit quote to insure that, I guess I should have quoted Deathgate there. Ah well.
I do find it funny that a kid found what we couldn't but then this is a HUGE series to leaf through.
-
I do find it funny that a kid found what we couldn't[.]
Actually, I was going to post something like that, too, when I realized I didn't really know if deathgate's child was a kid or not.…
-
That is a good point, darn the internet and not being able to see the people. :-\
-
AWWWWWW MOIRAINE?!?!?!?
I did NOT want that to happen!!!!
LOL In case you guys didn't know already, I finished Fires of Heaven. I have much to say. First off is that this is definitely the best book in this series so far IMO. Plenty of action, story, twists, turns, and an AMAZING ending.
-Okay let's get right to it. Moiraine: Again, I really didn't want this to happen. It wasn't a HUGE surprise because there was some definite forshadowing of her death throughout this book that I picked up on. It just really stinks because her and Rand FINALLY came to an understanding in this book. Moiraine was a true anchor for these characters as much as they disliked her. Her advice was always priceless and spot on. It may not have been what the characters wanted to hear, but it's what they needed to hear. I imagine it's similar to Obi-Wan Kenobi dying. Moiraine's death was certainly heroic. That whole scene where Lanfear attacks Rand with murderous jealousy was awesome. She skins Kadere because she's so upset about hearing Rand slept with another woman. That's rough!
The way RJ wrote Lan's reaction was heartbreaking. I can't imagine what he was feeling. Then he left so soon!! Moiraine bonded Lan to a Green sister in the event she died. I REALLY don't want this to be the end of Lan's participation in the story. I have a feeling it isn't.
I also KIND of have a suspicion this might not be the end of Moiraine and Lanfear's story. (It might be wishful thinking, I'm still reeling from this event) Okay, so they fell through the terangrael right? Now this was the same one Mat went through in Rhuiden and saw the scary people with pointed teeth who tried to kill him. Lan said he couldn't feel their connection anymore.....maybe traveling to another dimension would sever it?? Maybe not because Moiraine went into another terengrael doorway with Rand and Mat in another book and Lan never mentioned a disturbance in their connection. This is driving me nuts. LOL I hate the thought of Moiraine alone somewhere stuck between Lanfear and those creatures. I still don't totally understand why those people in the terengrael door way were so evil, as opposed to the friendly ones Rand encountered when he went through the other one. Besides, the one Moiraine pulled Lanfear into wasn't destroyed I think. ::sigh:: A lot to dwell on and that's only one subject. Man, I really am loving these books LOL.
-Okay, before Moiraine's death, Rand is full of fury and hell bent on killing Rahvin because he thinks that Forsaken has killed Morgase. Rand later resumes this quest. I'm glad he still went to confront him. I thought Moiraine's death would stop things cold and leave Rahvin for another book. I have to say that this whole final 20 pages was nothing short of groundbreaking!! Rand and the Aeil battling Trollocs and Fades. Rahvin attacking them with lightning and killing Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean (had to read that 5 times before I believed it.) Rand's battle with Rahvin in the palace and following him into the dreamworld. Meanwhile, Nyneave has Moghedian leashed with an a'dam in the dream world and forces her to help Nyneave go help Rand. MAN this whole scene was awesome. So many things happening all at once. My eyes were GLUED to this book!!! They way they all managed to defeat Rahvin together was perfect. I do wish Rand and Nyneave could have talked for longer and have had a more in depth convo than the one they had. But I understand she was rushing him out because of how dangerous that world was to him. Also, I find it odd that he didn't even acknowledge Moghedian. Oh well.
Now, since Rand used balefire with FULL force to kill Rahvin, Mat Aviendha and Asmodean were alive and well when Rand went back out front. He erased Rahvin pretty far back I'd say. That was not very smart of Rand as I imagine there could have been many other consequences (I think there may be more I don't know of yet) Finally, after all is said and done and they are all settled down in the palace, Rand speakes with a man who has brought 9,000 soldiers from Mayene to serve him loyally. Rand accepts. However the conversation turns to Mazrim Taim. The false Dragon that has escaped and returned to his army. Rand gives him amnesty...of a sort. An offer of alliance. This would not have been my first choice, but the more I think of it the more it seems like a good idea (depending on Mazrim's character...I haven't met him yet) Rand declares that all men who are found to channel have the option to join him. They will not be executed or gentled. A few extra male channellers for Tarmon Gaidon wouldn't be a bad thing LOL. I'm interested to see how this pans out.
Now the loose ends:
- Who killed Asmodean??? He was killed out of nowhere after just being ressurrected. I don't even have an idea who it might be besides one of the other Forsaken.
-Morgase and Tallanvor.........a future together?? I can see it, but not before they have to repair her old alliances and retain her throne. Oh yeah, and show everyone she's not really dead.
-Nyneave and Moghedian: This was the big cliffhanger for me!! Moghedian spoke a little too much and Nyneave deciphered that she is one of the Aes Sedai in Salidar with them. Nice!!! Nyneave knows who she is too but it left me hanging. She makes Moggy drink forkroot to put her into a deep sleep and says "See you when I wake up" Now THIS I want to see. I'd also like to see how Nyneave will explain this all to the Aes Sedai there, as she was not supposed to be in the dream world in the first place (she was secretly training Siuan.)
Sorry this was so long but I had a lot to say. Much more has happened since my last update but I decided to only talk about the ending as there was so much there. I have to go to Barnes and Noble to get Lord of Chaos which I ordered last week. I can't wait to see how they tie up the loose ends. ESPECIALLY finding out who Moghedian was in Salidar. I couldn't imagine waiting a year or two for that answer. All you fans who did have to wait must REALLY REALLY hate me now LOL.
Thanks again for the input guys. You're all really helpful and I hope you continue enjoying this thread. I'll keep you all updated!!
-Joe
-
- Who killed Asmodean??? He was killed out of nowhere after just being ressurrected. I don't even have an idea who it might be besides one of the other Forsaken.
According to Mr. Robert Jordan that should be "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer"......... I won't post my theories here, there are enough of those :-)
Mwah ha ha ha :)
Love the updates, they are tons of fun!
-
According to Mr. Robert Jordan that should be "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer"
That's always struck me as a pretty condescending thing for him to say. Considering how much controversy that question has sparked among very devoted fans, I think it's clear that Jordan did NOT succeed in making the answer intuitively obvious.
-
AWWWWWW MOIRAINE?!?!?!?
I did NOT want that to happen!!!!
Join the crowd. Moiraine is one of those incredibly rare creatures known as an actually sensible Aes Sedai, and she managed to well and truly earn Rand's trust. There's a lot more I could say on the matter, but most of it would be spoilers in one way or another. The doorway ter'angreal Moiraine and Lanfear fell through is, I believe, destroyed and nonfunctional. Beyond that, well, RAFO.
Now, since Rand used balefire with FULL force to kill Rahvin, Mat Aviendha and Asmodean were alive and well when Rand went back out front. He erased Rahvin pretty far back I'd say. That was not very smart of Rand as I imagine there could have been many other consequences (I think there may be more I don't know of yet)
He's a Forsaken, how bad can erasing his actions really be? There are some cases where the special effect of balefire really is purely beneficial, and this is one of them. The full danger of balefire only really comes into play when it's used on a truly massive scale, and it's the metaphysical danger of the pattern itself falling apart the way a woven rug might if you tear out too many threads rather than any direct effect.
- Who killed Asmodean??? He was killed out of nowhere after just being ressurrected. I don't even have an idea who it might be besides one of the other Forsaken.
This is the mystery we were referring to earlier. Robert Jordan is on record as stating that it was "obvious". Good luck finding anyone else who sincerely agrees. There is quite a sizable section devoted to this in the Wheel of Time FAQ, with several suspects with a wide variety of means, motive, opportunity, and degree of "obviousness", and there is not even close to a general consensus. I believe Brandon mentioned in his blog that, when he first walked into RJ's house after accepting the job of finishing AMOL, he asked for two things, one of which was the identity of Asmodean's killer. He has since "revealed" a joke answer twice, and promised that it will be in AMOL.
-Nyneave and Moghedian: This was the big cliffhanger for me!! Moghedian spoke a little too much and Nyneave deciphered that she is one of the Aes Sedai in Salidar with them. Nice!!! Nyneave knows who she is too but it left me hanging. She makes Moggy drink forkroot to put her into a deep sleep and says "See you when I wake up" Now THIS I want to see. I'd also like to see how Nyneave will explain this all to the Aes Sedai there, as she was not supposed to be in the dream world in the first place (she was secretly training Siuan.)
So close, and yet so far. :P But I'll let you read to find out what part of your speculation/conclusion is wrong. :-X
-
According to Mr. Robert Jordan that should be "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer"
That's always struck me as a pretty condescending thing for him to say. Considering how much controversy that question has sparked among very devoted fans, I think it's clear that Jordan did NOT succeed in making the answer intuitively obvious.
When in doubt blame Ishy. :o
-
You mean the guy who died two books ago and has shown no sign of recovering yet? Yeah, that's obvious. ::)
-
Sorry but i just have to mention this since in the first 10 pages of this post i didn't see anyone catch this idea... This pertains to the posts about goodkind "stealing, borrowing using etc..." Jordan's ideas. If anyone really stops to think about it almost every story in the fantasy world is borrowed, twisted, copied, or reused to fit the writers idea. What was the first famous fantasy story that was written? Beowulf. A story of a great hero who rises to the challenge of defending a terrified people from evil magic monsters. Almost every fantasy story out there involves Swords, sorcery, armies, love, treachery etc... One of the last truly original fantasy epics to ever emerge was Tolken's LotR. He was the first to truly introduce elves and dwarves, goblins, orcs and implacable evil, outside of folk lore, now look at all the stories about elves and goblins and potent evil. 90% + of the novels out there are all so called "rip-off's" of LotR. But no one says anything. That's the problem with the fantasy world, it has a specific mold, how many "Fantasy" books out there arnt set somewhere in Midevil times? How many don't involve swords and sorcery of some sort? When you break it down to the beginning of an idea for a story they all start out relatively the same. An unknown hero, destined to save the world from some evil force or being wishing distruction or domination. All the heros suffer physical and emotional damage through out the story to "temper" the hero they will become. All involve magic of one sort of another, from ancient power sources from a long dead civilization to the power of creation itself.
Brandon himself has used this mold albeit lightly, his world pre industrialization, swords and horses, armies, wars, love, pain, Magic=allomancy etc... Will you all now start saying that brandon plagiarized his ideas from one or many authors? No i doubt it because his world and storytelling are more unique than most.
Summary of the Rant.
All fantasy novels indeed all novels in a specific genera are going to have similarities and differences, ideas will blend and seem mirror images of each other. What truly makes these books different is the writers style and presentation. Because when you get right down to it they are all the same old story twisted and beaten into a newish idea to express the ultimate battle between good and evil. The story is in the telling, not the ideas that it is based on.
-
"I have to go to Barnes and Noble to get Lord of Chaos... " from JoeC
Be prepared for the next two books to get a bit, or quite a bit, darker. I wasn't thrilled with that on my first read probably because I was worried that it would escalate (the dark content) and I'd have to give the story up. I was highly invested in it then and I still am. You seem like someone who will really enjoy where this story is going next.
Listening to the recorded version for the first tme (I'm on Winter's Heart right now and enjoying it immensely) and knowing where the story goes makes LoC and A Crown of Swords much more palatable now, for me anyway. I skipped the two books I hated, but Brandon says that they were not so bad the second time through. I just remember wondering if RJ had lost his mind while reading PoD. It ruined a great half-summer at the beach for me.
I think some of us were so worried about Mr. Rigney (RJ) that Winter's Heart seemed amazingly good. It is good, but not as good, really, as books 1-5 IMHO. And nothing compared with New Spring, which I thought was excellent and very encouraging at the time it came out. But then he wrote Crossroads of Twilight and I was back to worrying.
I'm trying to stay general here and not give anything away. I think it helps sometimes to realize when to not get your hopes up. Maybe your expectations will be so low, Joe, that you actually enjoy that book! I am curious about your reaction. I highly recommend listening to The Path of daggers on audio, though. Don't buy it, they are expensive; ask your library to find it for you! Or read it and risk major WoT burnout...
-
You mean the guy who died two books ago and has shown no sign of recovering yet? Yeah, that's obvious. ::)
Oh I assure you he's always out there. Always lurking, just biding his time....You know evil overlord type shtuff. 8)
-
every story in the fantasy world is borrowed, twisted, copied, or reused ... What truly makes these books different is the writers style and presentation.
I disagree that all fantasy authors are unoriginal to the same degree. There is a big difference between using a heroic story model and using exact terms or very similar terms for very similar things. I am going on an oldish memory here, but I remember thinking that Goodkind engaged in much too much downright copying. Brandon seems entirely original to me in comparison.
Want completely original fantasy? Read Carol Berg (sorry, broken record here). There is almost nothing overused/formulaic/traditional in her worlds and she keeps pumping out better stuff every time!
-
Hehe JoeC, you realy have some good reading ahead :D You will get alot of answers, but still alot of them will be answered in AMOL. The story will get alot darker from now :)
You still have the best book to read, Knife of dreams :) That book is just..genious. The Mat character grows and did become my favorite, i did laugh out loud many times reading that one, Mat can be just...perfect ;D
Im allmost jelous, you still have a GREAT storry ahead of you :)
-
I'm curious JoeC if you had to guess who done in Asmo who would you pick? I'd like to see your thoughts before you start on LoC. :)
You will see Lan again his story isn't done yet. ;)
-
Just one thing to correct about your last post Joe. The man that comes to the palace in Caemlyn to see Rand in the end is Davram Bashere, Marshall-General of Saldaea, not Mayene. Saldaea is one of the Borderland nations that borders the Blight. Just had to set that straight since Bashere is one of my favorite characters ;)
-
About the Jordan V Goodkind thing,
Yes all authors borrow ideas from each other and basic stories from older stories. The big problem here was far too many parallels from one to other.
Aiel = Mud people
White Cloaks = Blood of the Fold
Aes Seadi = Sisters of light
I know there was a whole bunch more, but I can't think of what they were now as it's been a few years since I've read SoT - I'll have to go do that one again someday :-)
I've always said SoT was a good story, but it really lacked the depth that WoT has. I mean really I got pretty sick of Richard/Kahlan always getting split up. I will say that Faith of The Fallen was by far the best part of that whole series and will probably be held up as TGs best work.
-
A family friend who is a published author once said to me, "Writers don't borrow; they steal." Make of that what you will.
-
On the subject of Finns I think it was said that they are so alien to humans they might as well be evil. If you remember the Foxes they WERE wearing human hides so I think there may be some problems being on friendly terms with them.
And yes JoeC it SUCKED waiting two years between each book. I started right when book 7 came out so, and that was when I was in high school about 12 or so years ago. "It's been a long time and were nearly there...."
-
Glad you enjoyed the ending, JoeC. I think this book has one of the best endings. And I still have no idea who killed Asmodean.
-
I'm curious JoeC if you had to guess who done in Asmo who would you pick? I'd like to see your thoughts before you start on LoC. :)
You will see Lan again his story isn't done yet. ;)
OMG... no it isn't ;D He is involved in one of the most epic parts in the Knife of dreams book....with a "little" help from aquite funny woman (when she is angry) at the end. That part realy did make it feel....EPIC.
-
Hey JoeC,
You've got a great ride in front of you. I know how it's like---the only books I've waited to come out are Knife of Dreams and A Memory of Light itself. It's true that the books aren't nearly as bad when you can just jump into the next one with no trouble.
On the other hand, I want my solid week of reading back. If I was to do it again, I'd be a little less hardcore about finishing them.
Ah, the good ole' Asmodean debate. You should just be glad that we haven't started up in earnest. I would also be interested in your thoughts on the subject, actually. Far to much fan speculation is based on ideas that are shaped by later books, and which aren't really plausible given RJ's public statements. You have a unique opportunity to share a view unbiased by the upcoming reveals.
-
the only books I've waited to come out are Knife of Dreams and A Memory of Light itself.
Really?? :o :o :o
-
Just one thing to correct about your last post Joe. The man that comes to the palace in Caemlyn to see Rand in the end is Davram Bashere, Marshall-General of Saldaea, not Mayene. Saldaea is one of the Borderland nations that borders the Blight. Just had to set that straight since Bashere is one of my favorite characters ;)
You are correct!! My mistake!
I'm curious JoeC if you had to guess who done in Asmo who would you pick? I'd like to see your thoughts before you start on LoC. :)
Hmmmm.....Yeah I've been thinking about it a lot. It really could be anyone. Rand even. Maybe Lews Therin took him over completely for like 10 minutes and decided to take some revenge on Asmoidean. Who knows?? It didn't explain the manner of death either. It just said death "took him." By Power? By blade? I guess I'll have to wait and find out. I would say one of the other Forsaken but that's a hard case to make. Rand would have sensed any of the male Forsaken channeling just as the wise ones or Aveindha would sense a female Forsaken channeling. Unless they were already there. Honestly, for some reason, Mat keeps popping in my head. I'm not 100% sure why either. It just popped in my head as I was reading it. I pictured him whirling his spear and finishing Asmo with a deadly slice before he even knew anything happened. Again, I'm not saying I believe it was him, just a funny feeling I have that's all. Afterall, Moiraine had figured out who he really was before she died. Who else did too? Who did she tell? Did she really figure it out, or was SHE the one who was told? Did the wise ones enter his dreams?? Is that how Moiraine found out? I don't know. I hope it wasn't the wise ones who killed him. That would be anti climactic for me. LOL We'll see. Consider me part of the "Who killed Asmodean debate" you guys.
A family friend who is a published author once said to me, "Writers don't borrow; they steal." Make of that what you will.
I guess that's accurate in it's own way. It's hard to have a good vs. evil story that hasn't been thought up already. Some would say there's only a few degrees of good vs. evil. It's a very binding story plot that limits what you can write about and so many people have done it already. I personally don't mind. I've read some stories that are very similar and some that are very different. A lot of things I've seen in WOT could have been borrowed from R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt books, which started coming out a few years before WOT did. Before you people explode, I know RJ spent most of that 80's writing these books and worldbuilding and NO I'm not accusing him of stealing. I'm just giving an example of similarities that are in many good vs. evil stories. It's all a matter of how you perceive it. How much does it bother you? Me personally, unless it's really obvious, like borderline plagiarism, I won't care. I just like a good story. Chris Paolini's Inheritence Cycle rips off a LOT of books. It is a very unoriginal story but it is enjoyable so I read it. I don't let it bother me. Some people, however, take this very personally. Maybe so much so they see what they think is plagiarism on every page of everything they read. Again, I think it's up to the individual reader to decide. The world needs stories, good and bad. Original and unoriginal. Choose for yourself and read what you enjoy. If two books are similar, but you enjoy both, what's the big deal?? Let the authors fight it out. That's not to say I don't appreciate an original story. Mistborn swept me off my feet.
-
I agree with you, JoeC. And…humans see what they want to. I bet you could take almost any fiction story in the world (besides something that's like a history of Scientology or something like that) and find some other book/story that the author could have stolen from.
-
I would say one of the other Forsaken but that's a hard case to make. Rand would have sensed any of the male Forsaken channeling just as the wise ones or Aveindha would sense a female Forsaken channeling.
unless...well. Just keep reading :D
Chris Paolini's Inheritence Cycle rips off a LOT of books. It is a very unoriginal story but it is enjoyable so I read it. I don't let it bother me.
Books? Every time I think through the plot I tell myself that if I change a few names I could be reading Star Wars (original trilogy)
I think someone once said that there are no new stories. Or that every story has already been told. In a way its true. But there is so much more to it.
-
Even just the style of writing can completely change a book.
-
JoeC: Well welcome to the Great Who Killed Asmo debate, I think it's been going on now for about 15 years or so? Going with what RJ said about it supposedly being obvious I think you have to do a process of elimination. Myself I do believe it was one of the Forsaken that did him in. One that we did meet during Book 5, though I do like the idea of Lews waking up in Rand and deciding to get rid of Asmo. Though I really do think Rand would remember that.
I honestly found Chris Paloini's series to be very paint by the numbers, especially when the Uncle was giving a man to man talk on life. "Your going to die aren't you? *next chapter* Yep he died." I'm sorry but that got old and stale quickly, I found Brandon to be really refreshing.
I am curious as I have never seen WoT compared to RA's work, what parts did you feel mirrored between the two authors?
-
Who's RA?
-
Hey Shaggy, I think he meant R.A. Salvatore
-
Yes R.A Salvatore, author of Drizzt and Cadderly books from TSR's Forgotten realms. :)
-
the only books I've waited to come out are Knife of Dreams and A Memory of Light itself.
Really?? :o :o :o
Yep. I'd heard about WoT for about half my life, but never anything that caught my attention. Then I had a roommate who owned the entire then-extant series, and I started in for real. So I never really noticed that the action had slowed down because I was always moving. Until I hit the end, of course :(.
-
Oh…I wait a lot lol.
-
Yes I think the whole waiting two years between each book is really want drives some away. Though CoT is still really slow for some even then. Still it IS RJ setting up a massive chessboard story I think.
-
What's CoT?? ???
-
Crossroads of Twilight.
-
Oh, right…makes sense.
-
I'll say one piece of evidence that people tend to dismiss. RJ writes that the words "hung in the air". The only other times RJ uses this phrase is when something is Balefired (Bel'al, Darkhounds, etc). It has to be someone who can channel, and it has to be someone who knows how to use Balefire. RJ's "intuitively obvious" statement included the mention that all the clues were available by the end of Fires of Heaven. Now, he has later admitted that he was mistaken to believe it so obvious.
Stealing/Borrowing: This debate makes me chuckle. I find that most people who complain about something being too similar to other works are also the last to like anything new as well. Quite the paradox. The fact is that you can find similarities in anything if you look hard enough. Even Grandpa Tolkien's works were influenced by the Akabellath (sp), which is a Finnish story of a wise old man who helps people when they need it most, and a ring that at first grants you wishes, but over time makes you regret ever finding it. Sound familiar? Elves and Dwarves were in Norse mythology going back hundreds of years, so Tolkien wasn't really the first with that, either. He was the first to portray them in such a way, however, and his style of writing is just awesome. It is nearly impossible to be completely original. At the risk of sounding like a Fanboy, I have read WOT almost twice now (finishing KoD), and the only part I find that drags are the sections that speak of Elayne's opposition to the throne. Of course, I enjoyed the Simarrilion, so I may be a little odd.
-
Asmodean. Let's theorize a little here. In the scene where Asmodean dies he gives he a few clues to work off of.
all quotes taken from TFoH chap 56
1. He knows the killer instantly by look alone "One step, and he stopped,"
2. He is also very afraid of the killer. After he recognizes him we get this "the blood draining from his face."
3. His final words to the killer are "'You? No!' So he is surprised to see this killer and knows he is about to die.
Using that little bit of info and RJ's original statement of it being obvious who it was my money is on Shaidar Haran. It is in the very next book's prologue where we are finally formally introduced to this super myrddraal. Also who else would strike such instant fear into one of the Forsaken? With Asmodeans help Rand is able to figure out weaves quicker and ways in which to further his cause in more efficient manners. Thus, eliminating some of the chaos the dark one wishes him to create. Therefore, it serves Shaidar Haran greatly to remove Asmodean.
-
There are two flaws with that theory. First, RJ said we could figure it out with what we had by the end of Fires of Heaven, which excludes the prologue you mention. Second, Shaidar Haran can't channel, and none of the Foresaken even know who he is until later on, after he is first introduced. Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him. Asmodean was BALEFIRED!!!!!!! This is why it is so hard to figure out. Everyone has a theory and sticks to it despite evidence to the contrary.
-
Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him.
I think that is the major flaw in Madness' theory. Also, I quite like your balefire idea. Fires of Heaven had sooo much balefire in it that it was almost the book's defining point as far as furthering the magic system.
-
There are two flaws with that theory. First, RJ said we could figure it out with what we had by the end of Fires of Heaven, which excludes the prologue you mention. Second, Shaidar Haran can't channel, and none of the Foresaken even know who he is until later on, after he is first introduced. Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him. Asmodean was BALEFIRED!!!!!!! This is why it is so hard to figure out. Everyone has a theory and sticks to it despite evidence to the contrary.
I assume you are including yourself in that mix? ;) Yeah I was just theorizing. You are probably right about the balefire but that makes it one of the forsaken, right? :-\ Well if that was the case it just seems to obvious I just want it to be something out of leftfield. I read one theory where they had this big explaination on why it was Elayne that killed Asmodean. :o I know crazy right?
-
There are two flaws with that theory. First, RJ said we could figure it out with what we had by the end of Fires of Heaven, which excludes the prologue you mention. Second, Shaidar Haran can't channel, and none of the Foresaken even know who he is until later on, after he is first introduced. Asmodean would have scoffed at the big Myrrdraahl, just like the other Foresaken did the first time they met him. Asmodean was BALEFIRED!!!!!!! This is why it is so hard to figure out. Everyone has a theory and sticks to it despite evidence to the contrary.
You too! ;-) I'm not convinced he was balefired. The "hang in the air" thing may or may not be a reference to that. It could be a reference to a very quick kill with a blade too. As I'm not really sure who killed him or the exact method (i've got my ideas) I'm going with the true "obvious answer" Bela did it!
-
No, no, no, don't you remember Brandon answered this for us? It was Narg. (http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/739/Big-Wheel-of-Time-Interview-Retrospective) ;D
-
lol I had forgotten the Narg angle. Talk about the Law of Charachter Conservation!! :-) Perhaps the two of them worked in tandem? Ahh we'll find out soon ;-)
-
I don't think a knife would work 'cause (1) it was SOOO quick (2) we didn't hear any nosie and (3) I think Asmodean would have had time to react in SOME way.
-
You guys are also forgetting that we don't meet Shadar Haran until Book 6, so let's try not to spoil JoeC ok? So it can't be him, and yes I think it's a channeller as well. There are ways for a channeler to channel and not be detected, which again is something we learn in Book 6. Though I will use a different arguement and that if a small amount of balefire was used, just enough to erase him from a few seconds, maybe even just one. Then factor in distance from Avi and Rand, it is possible for it to go undetected.
Still if were to go with crackpot theories I'd vote for Bubble of Evil, at least we've been introduced to that by book 5.
And Narg was a joke, :P
-
I honestly found Chris Paloini's series to be very paint by the numbers, especially when the Uncle was giving a man to man talk on life. "Your going to die aren't you? *next chapter* Yep he died." I'm sorry but that got old and stale quickly, I found Brandon to be really refreshing.
I am curious as I have never seen WoT compared to RA's work, what parts did you feel mirrored between the two authors?
Yeah Paolini's books were more of a fun throwaway. I equate it with the "I'll watch this because nothing else is on TV right now" type of deal. He's got talent, but 15 was too young to tackle something like that.
I'm a huge Salvatore fan. I've read all of the Drizzt book and I find them just as exciting as the Mistborn trilogy. That's saying a LOT. I can't remember every similarity, just that there were a lot of times reading WOT books that I thought "Hmmm......Salvatore had that too." The descriptions of fight scenes are similar, although R.A. goes through every move, duck, pivot, slash, block, etc. LOL The Aes Sedai structure of female superiority is similar to the Matron Mothers of Drizzt's homeland Menzoberanzan. Again, I'm not saying RJ stole anything. I just figured I'd give another example of similarities in books, as you've been discussing. Like I said, I don't mind it as long as it isn't too in your face.
I'll say one piece of evidence that people tend to dismiss. RJ writes that the words "hung in the air". The only other times RJ uses this phrase is when something is Balefired (Bel'al, Darkhounds, etc). It has to be someone who can channel, and it has to be someone who knows how to use Balefire. RJ's "intuitively obvious" statement included the mention that all the clues were available by the end of Fires of Heaven. Now, he has later admitted that he was mistaken to believe it so obvious.
Interesting. I didn't pick that up. Although, I imagine Rand, Aviendha, or the Wise Ones may have sensed it. No I don't think it was obvious about who it was. I was left scratching my head, only to come here and discover that it is one of the biggest debates in the WOT fandom! I do think balefire is possible, because in LOC Rand mentions that Asmodean has disappeared. No body, plus somebody would have a hard time taking off with a body while Rand and his army was there. Who knows.......
You guys are also forgetting that we don't meet Shadar Haran until Book 6, so let's try not to spoil JoeC ok?
I'm about 120 pages into Lord of Chaos, so yes I have met him. I appreciate your awareness though! LOL
I might make an update for you guys on Thursday. I haven't now because not much has happened. The prologue was 63 pages long!!! Although, I was excited to get a glimpse inside Shayol Ghul. Demandred goes there and speaks directly with the Dark One. VERY good way to start this book off. Shaidar Haran interests me too. I thought he was pretty cool and I can't wait to see him in action. Few things:
-The Dark One wants to make Demandred his second in command. Does that mean Ishamael/Ba'alzamon used to be second in command? I'm still not sure how he made fire in his eyes or mouth but no other Forsaken has done that yet.
-Osan'gar and Aran'gar: Two Forsaken have been ressurected? Very interesting.
-Mazrim Taim working for Rand. I actually like him even though Rand doesn't. Just now, when I was reviewing the prologue I noticed similarities between him and Demandred. It might be forshadowing, it might not. I'm keeping my eyes open.
-Perrin back in the story, thank God!
-Nyneave and Elayne learning from "Marigan" LOL. I still am not 100% sure how they are getting away with all that but apparently they are and are earning praise from the Aes Sedai. Elayne even MADE a terengrael!! I'm interested to see where that's going.
Whoops, I wound up doing an update didn't I? lol Oh well, I've got more reading to do. Thanks for contributing to the thread you guys!! Talk to you later!
-Joe
-
-The Dark One wants to make Demandred his second in command. Does that mean Ishamael/Ba'alzamon used to be second in command?
The Dark One has not yet designated a second, and he wasn't really offering that position to Demandred. It was more of a reminder that the post remained open and an implication that it might be filled soon and, of course, that Demandred was a possible candidate.
I'm still not sure how he made fire in his eyes or mouth but no other Forsaken has done that yet.
That is never explicitly explained in the books, though RJ has explained it when asked. The fire eyes are an advanced form of the saa. When you know what the saa are (which is explained in the books, I'll let you RAFO) it will make sense.
-Osan'gar and Aran'gar: Two Forsaken have been ressurected? Very interesting.
Yup. Aginor and Balthamel are back, one of them with a sex change. :P
At the same time, one limit on the Dark One's ability to resurrect the Forsaken has been revealed - anyone killed by balefire is beyond his reach.
-Nyneave and Elayne learning from "Marigan" LOL. I still am not 100% sure how they are getting away with all that but apparently they are and are earning praise from the Aes Sedai. Elayne even MADE a terengrael!! I'm interested to see where that's going.
A'dam are quite effective as prisoner restraints on women who can channel. She cannot escape on her own, and as far as anyone else knows she's just an ordinary peasant woman who found a job as a servant.
-
Taimandred was another big theory as popular as who killed Asmodean. Interesting you picked that up so quickly.
The female Forsaken (and one in particular) are most people's favorite Asmodean killers because Rand would have detected a male channeler and like LAnfear already demonstrated in earlier books, females can invert thier weaves so they cannot be detected.
-
The female Forsaken (and one in particular) are most people's favorite Asmodean killers because Rand would have detected a male channeler and like LAnfear already demonstrated in earlier books, females can invert thier weaves so they cannot be detected.
So can males...
-
Encyclopeadia-wot.org has the best theory I have read thus far. It has the most evidence to support the theory, which is what I meant when I said that people believe what they want to despite the evidence. I am sure I am guilty of that in some aspects of life, but not in this. The balefire theory may not be true, but it is highly probable. Not only can weaves be inverted, but the ability to channel can be masked. We may not be actually told that by the end of FoH, but how else can Lanfear run around the White Tower without some Aes Sedai going "Holy Moses that chick is uber-strong!!!" Now, it can be argued that if Graendal or Sammael could invert weaves, why not just Travel instead of hide? I think one (or both) were afraid of setting off one of Rahvin's wards, and were waiting for the chance to just walk out of the palace (weaves that are tied off do not disappear when a channeler dies).
-
What you say is true about channelling, but one thing I've always wondered about. How would they know that he would walk through a door that he had absolutely no intention of walking through? I think the overall reason is either A. Forsaken in the castle for another reason and gets lucky that Asmo walks in, or B. Someone who is doing something that they do NOT want Rand to find out about and kill Asmo thinking he is simply Rand's Bard.
Ludicrous example of B: Mat is really a darkfriend and is doing darkfriend things in the Room. Asmo walks in and catches him so Mat kills him to prevent him from telling about his DF status.
Obviously I'm not saying Mat did it, but I'm willing to rule out most of the Forsaken ideas, and Channelling may or may not be necessary. Overall I'm inclined to believe that the killer was a DF in hiding, simply because why keep it a big secret unless there is going to be a reveal latter and it will completely mess up the twist?
-
... why keep it a big secret unless there is going to be a reveal latter and it will completely mess up the twist?
But Robert Jordan didn't think he was keeping it a big secret - he thought he was making it obvious.
-
But Robert Jordan didn't think he was keeping it a big secret - he thought he was making it obvious.
Which is a little mind boggling. What other "secrets" were hidden in "plain sight", I wonder...
-
I stand by my statement that the killer was a channeler.
Probably four or five sub-plots or something.
-
I agree it was a channeler, probably one of the Forsaken. It's not like every time Avi or Rand sense someone using the Power they freak out and have to know who it was. Also, it definitely could have been too little of the power to sense. The few times that people mentioned sensing the Power over a significant distance have all been ALOT of power being used.
-
I think maybe the thought is supposed to go something like this: Rhavin, Sammeal, Asmodean, Greandal , and Lanfear had a conspiracy going together. Now Rhavin, Lanfear and Asmodead all appear to be dead, with only Sammeal and Greandal still alive. With Sammeal supposed to be in Illian has bait for Rand, that leaves Grendal free to be where ever she wants to be.
If say Greandal finding that Rhavin and Lanfear are now dead, she may (and Sammeal perhaps as well) want to cover their tracks and part in the consipracy against Rand. A case of her or Sam being in the right place and the right time, bad for Asmo obviously.
-
I agree with that. Asmo just stumbled into the wrong room, where those "servants" Rand bumped into went to hide. Also, another possible bit of evidence balefire was used: When Demondred meets with the DO in Shayol Ghul, the DO tells Demondred that Asmodean and Rhavin are beyond its ability to return their souls. Balefire is the only thing that can do this. Some argue that the DO chose not to resurrect Asmodean because of Rand, but then why wouldn't it say that?
-
I agree with that. Asmo just stumbled into the wrong room, where those "servants" Rand bumped into went to hide. Also, another possible bit of evidence balefire was used: When Demondred meets with the DO in Shayol Ghul, the DO tells Demondred that Asmodean and Rhavin are beyond its ability to return their souls. Balefire is the only thing that can do this. Some argue that the DO chose not to resurrect Asmodean because of Rand, but then why wouldn't it say that?
Remember in Prologue of LOC the DO specifically mentions Rahvin dying of balefire and Asmo died the "final death for his treachery" - Again I'm just playing devil's advocate. The toughest thing about all of this is you'd never convict anyone in a court of law, too much room for "reasonable doubt"
-
I agree with that. Asmo just stumbled into the wrong room, where those "servants" Rand bumped into went to hide. Also, another possible bit of evidence balefire was used: When Demondred meets with the DO in Shayol Ghul, the DO tells Demondred that Asmodean and Rhavin are beyond its ability to return their souls. Balefire is the only thing that can do this. Some argue that the DO chose not to resurrect Asmodean because of Rand, but then why wouldn't it say that?
Remember in Prologue of LOC the DO specifically mentions Rahvin dying of balefire and Asmo died the "final death for his treachery" - Again I'm just playing devil's advocate. The toughest thing about all of this is you'd never convict anyone in a court of law, too much room for "reasonable doubt"
Ah-ha! There is some evidence that it wasn't balefire. Sort of. The way it is said makes it sound like the only reason Asmodean was not brought back was because of his particular association with Rand and not that he was balefired.
-
Did you quote that exactly? I need to reread it. E-WOT does say that betrayers will die the final death, but that is after Demondred says that Rahvin is dead, Lanfear and Asmodeaon are missing, and Moghedian failed to meet with him. The DO then says that even the Great Lord can not help someone who has been balefired.
-
THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.
That's the EXACT quote. I agree, it can be taken either way, but he says "Who Betrays me shall die the final death. Asmodean, Twisted by his Weakness."
I think the point the DO is trying to make there is that if he had realized that he just had to let himself be killed he would have been resurrected and still been able to serve. Remember the whole reason Asmo went over to the shadow was for immortality. Obviously this doesn't rule out balefire, but makes a pretty strong case that Asmo could have been resurrected had he continued to serve.
-
I think the 'final death' refers to being balefired.…
-
Actually another way to look at it is that the wheel will eventually re-birth everyone, including those in league with the shadow. To me Final Death means no more re-birth or Resurrection it's game over for the soul. I also think Asmo's "No!" hanging in the air is reminiscent of when Bel'lal was BF'ed by Moraine.
It's also interesting that Greandal seems to be the only one 100% certain that Asmo is dead while others, Sammeal included, wonder if he is still hiding out somewhere.
-
Maybe she's pretending…or she was keeping tabs on him…or she sent the killer…or did it herself.
-
She's pretending to herself that Asmo is dead and that the DO all but said she was Nae'blis?
-
When did the Do say Graendal is Nae`blis? I wasn`t aware he made anyone Nae`blis before Isha`maels reappearance as Moridin, although in the prologue of LoC, he asks Demandred: WOULD YOU BE NAE`BLIS? (exact quote)
Somewhat later, but I think still in LoC, Sammael finally gained the upper hand on Greandal by more or less suggesting the DO promised him that he would be Nae´blis. To me, this suggests the DO suggested to all Forsaken they might be Nae`blis. This ties into what he said in the LoC prologue - the Chosen dwindle, the weak fall away - let`s face it, the Shadow seems to believe in a survival of the fittest and it`s been said that in the AoL, the DO encouraged the competition among the Forsaken on the basis that the strongest would survive. I can`t quote it, though; I don`t remember where that was.
So I would guess the DO thought it was about time time to cause a more intense competition among the Forsaken, to counter Rand gaining in strength, knowledge and power (and besides, since he forbade them to attack Rand, he needed something to occupy the Forsaken with).
As to Asmodean... THOSE WHO BETRAY ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. Shall. This sounds pretty much like intention to me, and the rest like regret the DO can`t resurrect Rahvin due to him being balefired. And after all, what do you think how long the DO would remain ignorant Asmodean betrayed him? Not terribly long, I think. And I`m pretty sure he wouldn`t be pleased at all. And that Asmodean got in that situation because Lanfear overwhelmed him ony serves to prove his weakness. Anyway, it doesn`t really matter, I think. Either the DO can`t resurrect him or he doesn`t want to. Same result.
I´m pretty sure Graendal killed Asmodean, because as has been said, there was a conspiracy between Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael. Lanfear and Rahvin are accounted for. Sammael was supposed to sit in Illian and it`s been said he`s a defender, so he likely wouldn´t have sneaked around in Caemlyn. This leaves Graendal. Why should RJ have brought her into this conspiracy? Three linked Forsaken would have been enough to overwhelm Rand, I think. But I guess being in the conspiracy let Graendal know or guess where Rahvin was. Given the constant rivalry among the Forsaken, I find it quite likely that Graendal was undercover in Caemlyn, trying to find out more about Rahvin`s doings to get a hold on him or maybe even find a way to kill him.
Later we`ve been told Graendal would abandon what she has and flee if she would otherwise face a direct confrontation, so her hiding once Rand and the Aiel attack would make sense as well. Then Asmodean stumbles across her and she just uses the chance to kill him because she knows he`s a betrayer and maybe the DO even told Graendal to do it (just that Demandred didn`t seem to know at the prologue of LoC doesn`t prove anything; it`s quite likely the DO tells different Forsaken different things).
Well, we`ll find out in AMoL.
-
She's pretending to herself that Asmo is dead and that the DO all but said she was Nae'blis?
No, not to herself; pretending to the other Forsaken and the world in general. And I never said ANYTHING about the DO or being Nae'blis; I don't know where you're getting that from.
-
I was refering to Grendals meeting with the DO, and how she felt she nearly had Nea'blis in the bag. Not that DO had actually given it to her but the fact that she thinks shes going to get it.
-
The Asmodean death scene is written so much like Bel'al's that it lead a lot of people to believe that Moiraine was granted the wish to kill him, and is the reason she is now a prisoner. It can't be ruled out, even though it is not likely. People also use this argument (the wish theory), that Lanfear could have been. My only argument with that is that Lanfear would not have killed him cleanly, she would have butchered him and left the parts for all to see.
-
Lanfear would not have killed him cleanly, she would have butchered him and left the parts for all to see.
She probably would've if it served some plan of hers.
-
At that point, she had totally lost it. All her plans were in the toilet because Rand refused her one too many times. She was Single White Female meets Fatal Attraction meets The Ring girl all rolled up into one. I pity Kadere, Darkfriend or no. Having your skin ripped off you whole does not kill you right away.
-
And you would know because.… ;)
-
At that point, she had totally lost it. All her plans were in the toilet because Rand refused her one too many times. She was Single White Female meets Fatal Attraction meets The Ring girl all rolled up into one. I pity Kadere, Darkfriend or no. Having your skin ripped off you whole does not kill you right away.
All discussions lead to Asmodean...
I think I'll sit this one out.
-
So, where's that update we were promised, uh, two weeks ago? We need our vicarious reading fix! ;D
-
So, where's that update we were promised, uh, two weeks ago? We need our vicarious reading fix! ;D
So needy Douglas!! j/k Sorry about that. Been very busy(women...grrr) coupled with the fact that this book has not had as many major events than the last. I see that it HAS been awhile so I'll give an update!
-This book has mostly been about Rand, with the girls in Salidar as the supporting story. Still no Perrin...what's up with that? I see Rand has fully taken on the role as Dragon Reborn. He has real authority and exercises it very well. Even when he doesn't want to ( executing an Aeil he liked because they broke the law Rand made, very sad.) His character has grown so much. His growth in power is accompanied by the growth in problems he has to face. I think it's very odd that since the real Dragon has been reborn, the HERO of all life on that world, lords and ladies still play the game of houses and actually plot against him??? Even though this is a bit weird, it is a good example of selfish human nature.
-Nyneave Healed Logain, Suian, and Leane. VERY interesting. How can she have found something so easily that other Aes Sedai for thousands of years couldn't find?? It is a bit odd that Suian and Leane aren't back to full power.
-Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat. This is exciting, though unfortunately I knew it was coming as it was spoiled for me on after I googled Wheel of Time. My mistake. I'm happy for her and I think it's the right move if the Salidar Aes Sedai want Rand on there side, but having an Accepted boosted to Amyrlin would definitely cause resentment I think. She certainly fits the role with this new attitude change she picked up from the Wise Ones.
-"Halima" has infiltrated the Salidar Aes Sedai. She revealed herself as Aran'gar, the male Forsaken reborn as female. VERY nice idea by Mr. Jordan. A woman who nobody thinks can channel because she isn't Aes Sedai, but can wield saidin. No wonder she wanted Logain killed as soon as she got there. I'm very curious to see where this goes.
-The Forsaken have agreed to let "the Lord of Chaos rule." I still don't know why they don't all band together and kill him. Or why they didn't do it earlier. Lanfear could have killed him herself if Moiraine hadn't interfered.
-Mat took the Red Band army to Salidar to bring Elayne back to Rand. His first meeting with Egwene (as the Amyrlin) Nyneave, and Elayne had me laughing out loud. I could just picture him in my head mouthing off too them. When they tried to hold him with air, their flows disappeared because of his foxhead medallion. Their reactions were priceless. Mr. Jordan has a very good idea of how to inject humor into his novels at the right time. Elayne figures it's a terengal that stopped their powers but she has to investigate more. That terengal is perfect for Mat, as he distrusts Aes Sedai and with it they can't use their power on him! Now I know it absorbs saidin too because "Halima" tried to use power on him when they danced. He spun around thinking it was one of the other women though.
-Mat, Nyneave, and Elayne must go to Ebou Dar to get the bowl shaped terengal that may or may not change the weather, which has been oppressively hot. I hope they succeed, but I'm more interested to see the conversations between the three along the way. Including how Elayne plans to investigate Mat's terengal.
-Oh yeah, Alanna has bonded Rand as a Warder. I don't know exactly why she did this or why Rand didn't demand that she break the bond, but I actually liked that this happened. For some reason I can't quite say, I see this going in a very different direction than I thought. Plus, I kinda like Alanna.
Well that's all for right now. Sorry this wasn't very thorough. I just got home from work so I am very tired. I will try to update more often. I am almost done with Lord of Chaos and I put in my order for Crown of Swords yesterday. Thanks for the feedback guys!!
-Joe
-
-This book has mostly been about Rand, with the girls in Salidar as the supporting story. Still no Perrin...what's up with that? I see Rand has fully taken on the role as Dragon Reborn. He has real authority and exercises it very well. Even when he doesn't want to ( executing an Aeil he liked because they broke the law Rand made, very sad.) His character has grown so much. His growth in power is accompanied by the growth in problems he has to face. I think it's very odd that since the real Dragon has been reborn, the HERO of all life on that world, lords and ladies still play the game of houses and actually plot against him??? Even though this is a bit weird, it is a good example of selfish human nature.
Hmm Perrin should be in Lord of Chaos, it must be taking him quite the while to get to Rand from the Two Rivers. I think that is the beauty of this series that just because Rand is the prophised hero doesn't mean every one else agrees or even if they do want to bowed down to him. It's mainly why he needed the Aiel so bad, they wouldn't plot against him the way Tear, Cairhairn, and others do.
-Nyneave Healed Logain, Suian, and Leane. VERY interesting. How can she have found something so easily that other Aes Sedai for thousands of years couldn't find?? It is a bit odd that Suian and Leane aren't back to full power.
This is I think a great example of how stagnant the Aes Sedai have let themselves become. They have let TOO many things go on the way side because they are afraid to risk being cut off or burned out. They become lazy and don't hunt for girls, they wait for girls to come to them, etc. I think Nynaeve's inability to bring Suian and Leane to full power has to do with the fact she used Saidar to heal Saidar. I believe Logain is back to full strength.
-Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat. This is exciting, though unfortunately I knew it was coming as it was spoiled for me on after I googled Wheel of Time. My mistake. I'm happy for her and I think it's the right move if the Salidar Aes Sedai want Rand on there side, but having an Accepted boosted to Amyrlin would definitely cause resentment I think. She certainly fits the role with this new attitude change she picked up from the Wise Ones.
She still has some maturing to do but she has come a long way, father then certain others I could mention. *cough* Nynaeve *cough* Elyane *cough*.
-"Halima" has infiltrated the Salidar Aes Sedai. She revealed herself as Aran'gar, the male Forsaken reborn as female. VERY nice idea by Mr. Jordan. A woman who nobody thinks can channel because she isn't Aes Sedai, but can wield saidin. No wonder she wanted Logain killed as soon as she got there. I'm very curious to see where this goes.
This WAS a good plot device and executed well I think. :)
-The Forsaken have agreed to let "the Lord of Chaos rule." I still don't know why they don't all band together and kill him. Or why they didn't do it earlier. Lanfear could have killed him herself if Moiraine hadn't interfered.
For the most part they don't trust each other enough or work together enough. Though there was the whole (Lanfear/Asmo/Sammeal/Rhavin/Greandal) group and you know the result of that one. Their priorities keep changing is another issue with the forsaken as well. They now figure what better way to smash up the forces of good then let them just keep fighting each other (ie Plot and fight against Rand)
-Mat took the Red Band army to Salidar to bring Elayne back to Rand. His first meeting with Egwene (as the Amyrlin) Nyneave, and Elayne had me laughing out loud. I could just picture him in my head mouthing off too them. When they tried to hold him with air, their flows disappeared because of his foxhead medallion. Their reactions were priceless. Mr. Jordan has a very good idea of how to inject humor into his novels at the right time. Elayne figures it's a terengal that stopped their powers but she has to investigate more. That terengal is perfect for Mat, as he distrusts Aes Sedai and with it they can't use their power on him! Now I know it absorbs saidin too because "Halima" tried to use power on him when they danced. He spun around thinking it was one of the other women though.
I love that medallion, it's the best thing Mat ever got I say lol Anything that puts the Wonder girls on their butts is a good thing. Sometimes a character just needs to be brought down a notch and Nyn and Elayne definatly need it at least once a book.
-Mat, Nyneave, and Elayne must go to Ebou Dar to get the bowl shaped terengal that may or may not change the weather, which has been oppressively hot. I hope they succeed, but I'm more interested to see the conversations between the three along the way. Including how Elayne plans to investigate Mat's terengal.
Oh it will be interesting indeed
-Oh yeah, Alanna has bonded Rand as a Warder. I don't know exactly why she did this or why Rand didn't demand that she break the bond, but I actually liked that this happened. For some reason I can't quite say, I see this going in a very different direction than I thought. Plus, I kinda like Alanna.
See now if this has happened you should have seen Perrin by now... *scratches head* Alanna lost a warder in Two rivers and Verin DID warn Perrin about her. I would have loved to see Alanna bond Perrin and see what Faile did to her for it lol. I'm glad you like that it happened but honestly this was a very very bad thing to happen to Rand... you'll see.....
-
Umm...too lazy to quote.
Regarding the healing of Logain/Siuan/Leane, this is discussed later in the series. I think this is a great idea by RJ about how important it is for men and women to work together.
Mat's medallion is so awesome for him. It has limitations, which the supergirls are about to experiment with, but Mat is still able to use it to stay free of Aes Sedai. He knows how to work it!
-
See now if this has happened you should have seen Perrin by now... *scratches head* Alanna lost a warder in Two rivers and Verin DID warn Perrin about her. I would have loved to see Alanna bond Perrin and see what Faile did to her for it lol. I'm glad you like that it happened but honestly this was a very very bad thing to happen to Rand... you'll see.....
Perrin was in the prologue, and I haven't seen him since. At least that's what I recall.
-
You will get ALOT about Perrin, dont worry :)
If Alanna did bound Perrin, she would be dead by now, and Perrin to :)
Chard, how do you figure that Alannas bounding Rand was a very bad thing? I wont spoil anything, but the bond will turn up as a good thing for him. Not in the way JoeC (or Rand for that matter) think though.
It was an aweful thing to do, bounding him without he know about it. Alanna will get a nice suprise though...and not just one ;D
-
Well let's say this the bond doesn't make Rand want to be friends with Alanna and in effect less so with other Aes Sedai. It's something I feel that lends to what happens in CoS, so JoeC will see the effects soon enough.
-
*IMPORTANT NOTE* I originally started this thread with the intention of asking whether or not I should read Wheel of Time series. I decided yes, but since then this thread has evolved into a chronicle of my progress in the series. Surprisingly, many people have asked me to keep writing about it and my thoughts on it. So, PLEASE, if you have read the WOT series can you check my progress first before you decide to post something that will spoil any of the books for me. Thank you very much and have a good day.****
Hey guys,
I'm a huge BS fan and Mistborn was such a great and fulfilling series to read. I definitely plan on following Brandon's career and reading as much of his stuff as possible. Of course that would include the 12th Wheel of Time book. Here's the problem, I haven't read that series. I was at Barnes and Noble and saw that they had a couple hardcover editions of the book including The Eye of the World. I was tempted to buy it but I hesitated. I love fantasy, but anyone I ask about the WOT series tells me that it starts out great but goes downhill and to not waste my time. This is a real bummer, because I love fantasy and I've never read Robert Jordan before. I figured I could get some better opinions from you guys on this site. Is it worth getting into?? I usually don't like to start a series of books when I'm so far behind because I'm worried that they won't be good and yet I'll have to finish them to know the end. Your opinions will be greatly appreciated.
-Joe
P.S. I understand that some of you may say I should just read it and make my own opinion, but if I do decide to read them I will be spending the next couple of months reading all the way through so I just want a little reassurance from people with WORTHY experience that I will be satisfied. Thank you all again!
JoeC You are a dirtbag! I know youve read this! I knows its! ;)
Onthe offchance you havent then ill have to assume you are afraid, just like a dirtypeasant.
Put your hands into that soil and works some magic! This series is Long. Its Heavy. Its not for the weakminded.
Make upr your own choice and for once in your life, work for your goal.
This epic saga is.. wait for it..
-
Uh Madjius I think this is one of those cases where you should read more then the first post, JoeC has gotten well into the series. Currently on Lord of Chaos, soon to be getting Crown of Swords.
-
Shard, Madjius is just a troll–the best thing to do is ignore him.
-
Ah thanks for the 411 Shaggy, I'll remember that for now on.
-
Shaggy, please send a PM next time. It is rude to openly share negative opinions of other users.
It's also against the rules. Fourth Item on the FAQs (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0)
-
I see you are getting pretty far in. I just started my reread so that I am ready for the release of AMoL. I am only on The Dragon Reborn book though. Rand just used the portal stone to go to the alternate reality with Hurrin, and Loail. I like this part of the book for 2 reasons. This is where Rand starts to actively try to use the OP even though he doesn't want too, and Perrin is forced to start to come to terms with being a wolfbrother. Mat is a complete jerk in this book but what can you expect, it is mat. I know I get my first glimpse of Lanfear in a few chapters too.
-
-Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat. This is exciting, though unfortunately I knew it was coming as it was spoiled for me on after I googled Wheel of Time. My mistake.
I can't believe it...the exact same thing happened to me! It was a long time ago, but that was the only major surprise that was spoiled for me while trying to refresh my memory using EncyclopediaWOT. I also can't believe how entertained I am by this thread. We are vicariously enjoying WOT through your fresh eyes, JoeC.
-
-Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat. This is exciting, though unfortunately I knew it was coming as it was spoiled for me on after I googled Wheel of Time. My mistake.
I can't believe it...the exact same thing happened to me! It was a long time ago, but that was the only major surprise that was spoiled for me while trying to refresh my memory using EncyclopediaWOT. I also can't believe how entertained I am by this thread. We are vicariously enjoying WOT through your fresh eyes, JoeC.
Glad you're enjoying it!
BTW you guys, Perrin's back! After complaining that he wasn't in the book he is in the first chapter I read last night. Go figure! Berelain is a real hoochy too. I like Faile better. I've only got about 65 pages left so I will have a final update tomorrow evening. See you guys then!
-
Bah! Nonsense. Berelain is a favorite of mine. Anyone who can earn the respect of the wise ones is full of win in my book. ;D Ah well thats my opinion anyways. Faile just aggravates me too much.
-
Bah! Nonsense. Berelain is a favorite of mine. Anyone who can earn the respect of the wise ones is full of win in my book. ;D Ah well thats my opinion anyways. Faile just aggravates me too much.
I'm with Madness on this one. And check out these drawings. I mean, who would you choose?
Faile?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4Cwvvts0d_k/RqzsWR7G9HI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/_aRIRnLS_qM/s1600/faile.jpg)
or Berelain?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4Cwvvts0d_k/SLTgxkQNY7I/AAAAAAAAAgY/6_OKjxUr-Kc/s1600/berelain.jpg)
(Artwork from http://seamassketches.blogspot.com/search?q=wot.)
-
:D Well done. Perfectly put.
That guy easily has some of the best WoT art around.
-
Ya not really much of a contest.…
Funny, though. I pictured Faile a lot younger and Berelain a bit older.…
-
Faile reminds me of pocahontas, from the disney movie, and berelain is a total babe :o
-
You are judging which character you like best based on and artists idea? Ironically, if it wasn't for Perrin, Faile and Berelein would get along famously. They are very much alike, even if the lack of POV for Berelein prevents you from seeing that she is a willfull and proud as Faile. Berelein also goes too far at one point (that I won't spoil for Joe), and it seems all of you have forgotten about it. I was reminded of something quite funny while checking out the re-read of WOT on Tor.com: Mat bumps into Berelein and she ignores him. When he calls her out on it, she stops, looks at him, then shakes her head and mutters "too much like me" and then walks away without ever actually acknowledging him.
JoeC, keep on trucking. I can't wait for you to find out the big surprise ability Mat's medallion possesses.
-
On the Faile vs. Berelain, I'm completely on Faile's side. Berelain knows perfectly well that Perrin isn't interested in her, that he loves Faile and is committed to her, but she keeps intentionally getting him in trouble with Faile and trying to threaten their relationship. What is she even hoping to accomplish? She knows Perrin won't choose her, all I can see is she's trying to make his life difficult - and usually succeeding.
I can see why people get frustrated with Faile for expecting Perrin to read her mind, and for not trusting him, but I find her a much more likeable as well as respectable character.
I don't quite see how Berelain and Mat are alike, other than their self-centeredness and love of luxury. It's not like Mat goes around seducing people for his own devious Machiavellian purposes.
-
I'm going to go ahead and call that ridiculous, Vatdoro. Honestly, an artist's idea of what they look like determining your opinion? tsk tsk.
Ok, so they both are described to be beautiful--Faile in more of an exotic way and Berelain in more of a skanky way. lol I actually like both characters, but Faile is TOTALLY justified against Berelain--and honestly Faile responds well given the circumstances. Do the people who hate her try to put themselves in her shoes? I'd insist on Berelain leaving camp or I would have gone back home and if Perrin loved me, he'd follow lol.
Berelain says she's too much like Mat after he gets mad at her for not speaking to him and demands she be civil...so I guess she thinks she is blunt and assertive like Mat. They also like chasing people (romantically).
-
I should have known my last comment might not go over that well with some of the ladies. Especially you, Achren. ;)
But, in my defense, I'm not letting " an artist's idea of what they look like determine my opinion." I actually love that guys WoT art. It's the best WoT art I've ever seen. Practically all of his depictions of the characters match what I've always imagined they looked like. But, I'm sure many of you imagine them differently.
When I first met Berelain, my opinion of her mirrored Joe's; "a real hoochy". But, the more I read, the more Faile grates on my nerves, and the more Barelain grows on me. Madness had a really good point when he mentioned how Barelain earned the respect of the Wise Ones, which is no easy task. There is a lot more to Barelain than "being a hoochy." :P At times I found myself wishing Perrin had chosen Barelain instead of Faile. ;D
And, to try and get back on topic... Joe - I think this is one of my favorite threads on here right now. I love reading your reactions to the WoT as you read it for your first time. And now that there are a few more books planned for the series you'll get to wait (at least a little bit) before reaching the end. You'll probably even get to read the books at least once more. :D
-
Update! Finished Lord of Chaos last night!
This book had the most action packed ending of the series so far. I was really impressed at how this all turned out! Okay, let's see....
-Elayne, Nyneave, and Mat are left in Ebou Dar. They haven't found the bowl terengeal yet. I absolutely love how angry Nyneave is about telling her he was going to warm her bottom. I think she's overreacting but it's nice to see the tables turned. I think Elayne is wrong in trying to examine Mat's foxhead medallion. That medallion is Mat's one way of protecting himself from the people he trusts the LEAST. I was glad earlier in the series when Rand told Moiraine that Mat's medallion is OFF limits. It's his and no Aes Sedai can touch it. I've always liked Mat throughout this whole story and I feel that Egwene, Nyneave, and Elayne don't give him a fair shake. The man arrived in Salidar with an army that serves him and Nyneave yells at him like he was caught stealing blueberries or something. I certainly hope there is some point where Mat sets Nyneave straight, or she witnesses him do something that completely changes her respect for him. Mat deserves it I think.
-Rand gets captured!! This was unexpected. Where were all the Aeil that are usually in every crevice or corner if he has guests. I know the Aes Sedai arrived quickly, but jeez! I'm also a little disappointed that Rand fell for their trick. How could he not imagine they would disguise Aes Sedai as servants?? And the way the Aes Sedai acted when they had him captured!! Like he wasn't even a big deal. Oooh, I could FEEL Rand's anger. That was pretty rough how they tortured him like that. Now Rand will NEVER trust Aes Sedai again. "Not an inch, not a hair..." he says. This is unfortunate because Rand will no longer recognize whether they are Salidar or Tar Valon, with him or against him.
I was so glad that Perrin rounded up all those soldiers and all those Aeil, met up with the people from Two Rivers flying the banner of Manatheren, and the wolves!!! They ALL came together to save Rand because at least THEY know that without him the world is doomed. The whole time they spent catching up to the Aes Sedai was a little bit too drawn out but when they got there was great.
-The big battle at the end was, like I said, the best this series has had so far. It's a bit unfortunate that there was no battle with a Forsaken, but this made up for it. Perrin, the Aeil, the nine Aes Sedai with them, the wolves, and all their soldiers arrive to find the Tar Valon Aes Sedai battling the Shaido Aeil who have them surrounded. Why did the Shaido turn on them?? They helped them capture Rand. It was the only part I didn't quite understand, although I did pick up that Sevanna wanted Rand for herself. This was a bloody battle and a bit graphic at some parts too. I didn't mind, it's a battle for God's sake! RJ did a great job addressing all the minor battles and the determination of Perrin to cut a straight path to his friend Rand. That's why I liked that so much, because he was fighting for his FRIEND. Not the Dragon Reborn, but his childhood buddy who he grew up together with.
Rand manages to untie the shield on saidin and free himself from that locked chest with so much force he actually stills two of the Aes Sedai that were shielding him. He then methodically hunts down and entraps the Aes Sedai that had captured and tortured him one by one. Lews Therin (inside his head) was actually encouraging Rand to do this too! He REALLY wanted Galina, but he never found her. BTW, during Rand's captivity, it is confirmed that he can talk to Lews Therin in his head. If only he'd cooperate!
Okay, when Taim and the Asha'man showed up, I almost leaped out of my seat. The image of all of the Asha'man wearing black and channeling against the Shaido was one I will never forget. That REALLY must have made all the Aes Sedai present very nervous. LOL.
It was a great battle. I'm glad that no major characters died. Rand forced the Aes Sedai that came to help him to kneel and swear to serve him. I felt a little bad for them because they tried helping, but after his torture and imprisonment, I don't expect Rand to trust any Aes Sedai ever again. When he told them "Kneel! Or BE knelt!" I was like ooooooooh it's on!! Rand's not going to take crap from anyone ever again! BTW, he needs to go back to Tear and get Callandor so this crap won't happen to him again!! That thing has been stuck in the Stone of Tear for like 3 books!!
-"Halima" freed Moghedian. I had been worrying this would happen for a while now. Now I'm fearing for Egwene, Nyneave, and Elayne because I'm sure that is all Moghedian will be thinking about. Revenge. Although, Halima said she was summoned to Shayol Ghul. Maybe she'll have a new assignment. I can't imagine she would be in trouble, it wasn't her fault she was captured. But, this IS the Dark One we're dealing with here. Another Forsaken on the loose....
-Egwene thinks it might be Logain who freed Moghedian.
-Falion of the Black Ajah ( I think) is in Ebou Dar hunting for an angreal cache.
-Herid and Fel are torn apart by a gholam. I actually don't remember who these people are. I won't go to another WOT encyclopedia because I ran across some spoilers last time.
-Demandred's last words to the Dark One, "Have I not done well?" makes me believe even more that he is Taim, or is at least working with him. Another hint was how brutal his slaughter of the Shaido was. Maybe he's training the Asha'man to be dreadlords. If so, it just doesn't make sense!! Why wouldn't he just kill Rand?? Also, it said Mazrim Taim had been channeling for 15 years, but the Forsaken were freed only recently. Did Demandred kill him and take his place?? Grrrr!!! I love these books LOL.
I'm very happy with how this series is going and I'm glad I got involved in it. Although, some parts really do drag on forever, I don't feel that the story itself is too stretched out. There's plenty of stuff that could be trimmed and still be able to tell the story, but there's also plenty of major events that are very fun and interesting to read. Plus, since there's so much content, I bet a re-read of the series would be very fulfilling. Which is why I'm sure so many people re-read this series!!!!
Okay, I have to go to Barnes & Noble to pick up my copy of Crown of Swords. I don't know if I will take a break between CoS and Path of Daggers or not. Patrick Rothfuss' new Kingkiller book comes out this month and I've been waiting for that for a while. Or I could put it on hold until I finish WOT. That also would mean that Warbreaker would have to be put on hold. Sigh, I hate being behind. LOL I suppose I'd want to give those books as much attention as possible, rather than have them be a quick read in between WOT books. Plus, I have you guys to consider! We'll see after I finish CoS.
Thanks again for the feedback guys!!! I hope you continue to enjoy this thread!! I'm having a lot of fun keeping this thread going for you. Take care!!
-Joe
-
Herid and Fel are torn apart by a gholam. I actually don't remember who these people are. I won't go to another WOT encyclopedia because I ran across some spoilers last time.
I thought it was Herid Fel (one guy not 2). He was the philosopher at the school that Rand and Min go to visit who is helping Rand puzzle out the prophecies and such.
Keep reading em till you hit the end. If you're going to stop and give yourself a small break I would suggest between Winter's Heart and Crossroads or Crossroads and Knife of Dreams....I'm not too worried about you stopping, there is an ending in Crown of Swords that will compell you ;-)
-
Yay! Another post from Joe! Don't have time for a lot of comments right now, but I will say that Herid Fel (one person) is the philosopher guy from the school in Cairhien that Rand has been talking to. Apparently he was on to something. Glad you enjoyed the ending, it is one of the better ones. (Especially when you don't have to wait for the next book!)
-
and the wolves!!! They ALL came together to save Rand because at least THEY know that without him the world is doomed.
Yeah, their response when Perrin says "they have caged Shadowkiller" was a very nice moment.
Why did the Shaido turn on them?? They helped them capture Rand. It was the only part I didn't quite understand, although I did pick up that Sevanna wanted Rand for herself.
Sevanna wants Rand for herself. Do you really think any group of Aes Sedai would willingly hand over the Dragon Reborn to an Aiel?
Rand manages to untie the shield on saidin and free himself from that locked chest with so much force he actually stills two of the Aes Sedai that were shielding him.
Three, actually.
Okay, when Taim and the Asha'man showed up, I almost leaped out of my seat. The image of all of the Asha'man wearing black and channeling against the Shaido was one I will never forget. That REALLY must have made all the Aes Sedai present very nervous. LOL.
That was definitely what really made the scene for me. This is really the first full scale One-Power battle shown directly in the entire series and it is also the first major action by the Asha'man. The sheer carnage that that many powerful combat-trained channelers can cause is incredible. Plus, I really don't think Rand would have been able to win without them there.
It was a great battle. I'm glad that no major characters died. Rand forced the Aes Sedai that came to help him to kneel and swear to serve him. I felt a little bad for them because they tried helping, but after his torture and imprisonment, I don't expect Rand to trust any Aes Sedai ever again. When he told them "Kneel! Or BE knelt!" I was like ooooooooh it's on!! Rand's not going to take crap from anyone ever again!
Actually, that line was Mazrim Taim's. Rand gave the demand to kneel, but Taim gave the threat of forcing them.
I especially liked the stated reasoning behind it - the promise of equal footing with the Tower, and enforcing it with the Tower Aes Sedai's current status because they didn't follow his directions.
BTW, he needs to go back to Tear and get Callandor so this crap won't happen to him again!! That thing has been stuck in the Stone of Tear for like 3 books!!
Patience, Callandor will return eventually. Oh, if you go back and reread the scenes where he uses it you might notice something...
-Herid and Fel are torn apart by a gholam. I actually don't remember who these people are. I won't go to another WOT encyclopedia because I ran across some spoilers last time.
As stated already, Herid Fel is a single person and is the philosopher that was helping Rand puzzle out the Prophecies and his answers from the Aelfinn.
-Demandred's last words to the Dark One, "Have I not done well?" makes me believe even more that he is Taim, or is at least working with him.
Demandred is not Mazrim Taim. Robert Jordan stated that explicitly when asked.
-
-Elayne, Nyneave, and Mat are left in Ebou Dar. They haven't found the bowl terengeal yet. I absolutely love how angry Nyneave is about telling her he was going to warm her bottom. I think she's overreacting but it's nice to see the tables turned. I think Elayne is wrong in trying to examine Mat's foxhead medallion. That medallion is Mat's one way of protecting himself from the people he trusts the LEAST. I was glad earlier in the series when Rand told Moiraine that Mat's medallion is OFF limits. It's his and no Aes Sedai can touch it. I've always liked Mat throughout this whole story and I feel that Egwene, Nyneave, and Elayne don't give him a fair shake. The man arrived in Salidar with an army that serves him and Nyneave yells at him like he was caught stealing blueberries or something. I certainly hope there is some point where Mat sets Nyneave straight, or she witnesses him do something that completely changes her respect for him. Mat deserves it I think.
I agree with you so much with this sentiment Joe, the Wondergirls certainly made me angry. The difference between Moraine and Elyane is that Moraine left it alone and didn't keep pestering Mat about it. I won't say any spoilers but you should remember Suian's assessment of Mat and comparing him to her uncle.
I will say this that Mat is one of my favorite characters, he just gets more and more badazz as the series goes on.
-Rand gets captured!! .
This is what I felt Alanna bonding Rand lead to, though it also helped in rescuing him. Rand is being driving farther and farther into a cold untrusting and calculating ruler. I sometimes wonder if the Forsaken are manipulating things for him to become like that or if it is more of Rand's character having trouble dealing with certain things.
-"Halima" freed Moghedian. I had been worrying this would happen for a while now. Now I'm fearing for Egwene, Nyneave, and Elayne because I'm sure that is all Moghedian will be thinking about. Revenge. Although, Halima said she was summoned to Shayol Ghul. Maybe she'll have a new assignment. I can't imagine she would be in trouble, it wasn't her fault she was captured. But, this IS the Dark One we're dealing with here. Another Forsaken on the loose....
Oh Moggy is in BIG trouble alright. I think it should be important to remember that alot of these Forsaken like to create plots to use their enemies, to garner a stronger position first before striking at their target.
-Herid and Fel are torn apart by a gholam. I actually don't remember who these people are. I won't go to another WOT encyclopedia because I ran across some spoilers last time.
As stated before he is a kindly old man who gets distracted when Min's around, but he had some interesting theories on the Shadow it seems. I was really proud that Rand started up Schools of learning and invention.
-Demandred's last words to the Dark One, "Have I not done well?" makes me believe even more that he is Taim, or is at least working with him. Another hint was how brutal his slaughter of the Shaido was. Maybe he's training the Asha'man to be dreadlords. If so, it just doesn't make sense!! Why wouldn't he just kill Rand?? Also, it said Mazrim Taim had been channeling for 15 years, but the Forsaken were freed only recently. Did Demandred kill him and take his place?? Grrrr!!! I love these books LOL.
He may not be Demandred but I think he certainly IS Evil and out for his own. Remember what I stated about the Forsaken liking to plot and play with their targets before striking. Taim doesn't want to mess up the free meal so to speak, he isn't ready to grab at the crown himself just yet. It is possible he may be working with a Forsaken if not out for his own.
I think your going to enjoy Crown of Swords greatly *evil grin*
-
and the wolves!!! They ALL came together to save Rand because at least THEY know that without him the world is doomed.
Yeah, their response when Perrin says "they have caged Shadowkiller" was a very nice moment.
"We come." So cool....
BTW, he needs to go back to Tear and get Callandor so this crap won't happen to him again!! That thing has been stuck in the Stone of Tear for like 3 books!!
Patience, Callandor will return eventually. Oh, if you go back and reread the scenes where he uses it you might notice something...
When the Trollocs and Lanfear attack the Stone of Tear at the beginning of Shadow Rising??
-Herid and Fel are torn apart by a gholam. I actually don't remember who these people are. I won't go to another WOT encyclopedia because I ran across some spoilers last time.
As stated already, Herid Fel is a single person and is the philosopher that was helping Rand puzzle out the Prophecies and his answers from the Aelfinn.
Ah yes, I remember him now. Sorry. But the short paragraph at the end of LoC made it seem like "Herid" and "Fel" were two different people. I remember him now. He was easily distracted and rambled on about things unless interrupted. I had learned about gholams a while back but this was the first I've seen of one. Apparently they are extremely dangerous and powerful. I look forward to seeing more of them. Hopefully soon!!
-
Wolves are awesome in any Fantasy book.
And you'll see more Gholam in CoS.
-
The foreshadowing suggested to me that the destruction of the seals will precipitate the Last Battle but what Fel discovered, in my opinion is that the seals have to be destroyed and battle completed in order to "finally" heal as opposed to sealing the bore. Now I may be wrong and really we'd have to ask EUOL and he'd say wait till October... but it seems logical that there will be a call back to the circular nature of the wheel. Rigney seemed of two minds on that but, logically, if time is a circle and there was no bore before Therrin's contemporaries opened it, then after the "last" Battle it has to be healed entirely. blood on the rocks
Just a thought.
-
Maybe this is just me, but I think one of the best scenes in the entire series involves a ghloam in CoS. I don't know why I like it so much...but I can just picture it so well. I think it would make a good scene in a movie (of course they'd ruin the way the characters look, though...)
Yeah, I thought Demandred was Taim too. It would have been SO cool. But, that's ok, I suppose.
I love Mat--he's my favorite--but I also understand why the girls act like they do--they're used to it. They're used to him being the one to screw things up and they're used to being in charge/being super cool. Does Mat deserve it? Not really, but maybe a little bit...he's kind of a scoundrel and likes being a scoundrel. All in all, it's a fun dynamic between the characters that sets up lots of funny situations.
-
Joe, your Taim/Demandred theories are very intuitive. It has always been my belief that Demandred is working through Taim. He does not have Rand killed because of the whole "kneel to the Dark Lord" mumbo jumbo, which some of the Forsaken follow and others don't.
As for a theory on how to seal the bore. The amount of continued emphasis put on the need for men and women, Saidar and Saidin, to work together to create the truly great things in the world, it stands to reason that the combined power is needed to seal the bore. When it was tried during the AOL, only Saidin was used, and the results were obviously less than ideal.
Hmmm, what would make the Supergirls respect Mat? Muwahahaha! I have to get my bearings before posting again. I am trying to remember some chronology so I don't spoil anything.
-
OOOOPS!! I forgot to mention that Lan is now bonded with Myrelle. Wow, why would Moiraine pass it to her?! I can't wait until Nyneave finds out. I'm 115 pages into Crown of Swords!! It's getting good!
-
If a Warder's Aes Sedai dies, he goes crazy and tries to kill himself. She did it to keep Lan alive, although it was a pretty crazy thing to do.
-
You might as well mention that Myrelle has a history of keeping Warders alive as well when their former Aes Sedai die.
-
Moiraine passed her bond and laid a contingent compulsion on it because she knew Lan would be affected by Broken-Warder-Bond Syndrome. She passed it to Myrelle because Myrelle has a track record of dealing with said Syndrome successfully. Very few Aes Sedai have anything to do with Warders whose bonds are broken, and even fewer have any success at all at curing the suicidal depression and desire for revenge that a broken bond causes. Myrelle has succeeded at curing at least four broken-bond Warders.
-
You really begin to notice a pattern of the Aes Sedai "hands off things too difficult to deal with" after awhile. They don't deal with broken bonds, with burning out/severing, with *angrel's that seem too dangerous or unknown. It's really no wonder they have gotten so stagnant.
-
Also, dont forget that Moiraine was the guiding force for Lan's battle with the shadow. Moiraine felt that without her guiding hand Lan would just go off and die in some useless scuffle with some minions of the shadow. She knows that he is worth far more than another fallen soldier in the battle against the DO.
-
Of course Myrelle's brand of healing is maybe more mind rape than intervention... These Aes Sedai... Almost makes one want to grab a copy of The Way of the Light and head for Amadicia...
It is a good question though, why Myrelle and not someone closer to hand. Moiraine's accepted "trick" was crystal scrying she'd have been able to locate someone close enough to limit the risk that Lan "accidentally" get himself killed traveling cross country.
-
Anyways it was just a way to keep him from running off so that Nyneave can have his bond when she earned the shall...
-
Anyways it was just a way to keep him from running off so that Nyneave can have his bond when she earned the shall...
Has Joe gotten there yet??!! Remember he has not yet read the entire series. Let him finish the book before you begin talking about events that happen in it, you don't know where he is!
-
Has Joe gotten there yet??!! Remember he has not yet read the entire series. Let him finish the book before you begin talking about events that happen in it, you don't know where he is!
I remember a Moraine POV where she reflects on how Lan gave his heart to Nynave and how she had "seen that she would have him when Moraine was gone" or some such as that. so not really a spoiler there :-)
-
Probably not technically a spoiler, but everyone remember to keep it spoiler-free for Joe so he can enjoy his first WOT read-through. And the rest of us can enjoy it vicariously.
-
Okay, I have to go to Barnes & Noble to pick up my copy of Crown of Swords. I don't know if I will take a break between CoS and Path of Daggers or not. Patrick Rothfuss' new Kingkiller book comes out this month and I've been waiting for that for a while. Or I could put it on hold until I finish WOT.
You don't really have a problem here, because Kingkiller Day2 does not come out this month. Pat told us about this (http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2009/02/concerning-release-of-book-two.html). Keep on reading WoT! I'm starting a reread next year to be fresh for the final 2 books :D
-
Well, you guys sold me. I checked your comments on a computer at my work ( the Apple store in Boston) and I figured when I leave I'll hit the Barnes & Noble on the way home and grab Eye of the World. Managed two chapters on the way home and yes it is right up my alley so far. The style of writing isn't bad at all I think. A lot of people don't like over-descriptive books but I happen to be a massive Stephen King fan so I'm used to endless paragraphs of description. I truly appreciate your answers guys and I definitely look forward to being part of the WOT world and joining your discussions. Thanks again.
-Joe
g'day mate; I think it was 2years ago a friend at work was totally obsessed with WOT and got me into after a couple of months of badgering about how good it is and why i should be reading it instead of the book i was reading at the time. It wasn't until i finished that book at the time and i was about to go on leave for a minor back operation he lent me his copy of the 1st book, from there i was hooked and went brought the series because i didn't want to wait until i saw my friend again to read the rest.
I think you just sold me,
I originally came to these forums to get more information on 'Mr Sanderson' and his writings, Since he is going to be completing the last installments of this amazing series. I have been contemplating reading Mistborn since it's going to be quite some time before 'Brandon' can complete AMoL. (Have decided to do so). A couple of days ago I went out in search of this trilogy and none of my local book stores have it :( and won't until the end of next week(I live in Melbourne). So i went onto eBay and was able to secure myself a copy. So now i'm sitting here wondering what i can do to pass the time between now and when the books arrive. I came back to these forums and had a better look around and came across this thread after reading the 1st 7 pages of this thread you all have gotten me really excited about this series again and, yes you guys have 'sold me' I'm going to re-read these books again.
PS.Just my 2cents favorite characters for me were/are mat & perrin. Then Moiraine towards the end.
-
Okay, I have to go to Barnes & Noble to pick up my copy of Crown of Swords. I don't know if I will take a break between CoS and Path of Daggers or not. Patrick Rothfuss' new Kingkiller book comes out this month and I've been waiting for that for a while. Or I could put it on hold until I finish WOT.
You don't really have a problem here, because Kingkiller Day2 does not come out this month. Pat told us about this (http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2009/02/concerning-release-of-book-two.html). Keep on reading WoT! I'm starting a reread next year to be fresh for the final 2 books :D
That's really unfortunate because I was very much looking forward to the next book. Funny thing though.... I met Pat at a book signing in Cambridge, MA in November (i think) of 2007. Very nice guy, but I do remember him telling me, from his OWN mouth, that the second Kingkiller book was coming out in April of '09. I jokingly complained that I didn't want to wait and we had a few laughs. So, I don't know why he is saying Amazon had it wrong with the release date, because he confirmed it to me in person. Oh well, I understand writers are busy guys. BTW, I'm 200 pages into CoS and I should have an update in a few days. Things are good, but they haven't taken off just yet.
-
Amazon had the year set to 2025....
-
Amazon had the year set to 2025....
I'm pretty sure that was done recently as a jab at Pat. I've been checking that status for over a year and it always said April of 2009.
-
It is a good question though, why Myrelle and not someone closer to hand. Moiraine's accepted "trick" was crystal scrying she'd have been able to locate someone close enough to limit the risk that Lan "accidentally" get himself killed traveling cross country.
Myrelle was chosen because of her talent with warders that have lost there bond partners. Also someone closer was not really applicable at the time she set up the passing of the bond. I am about half way through book 2 right now and just read the part where Moraine told Lan that the bond had been set up to pass on the death of her. She knew long ago that she might die and that when she did she did not want Lan to die as well. She did not know who was going to be close at the time of her passing and it may take the two of them together (both Aes Sedai) to set up the passing of the bond. That means one on one contact and they need to do it ahead of time.
-
Amazon had the year set to 2025....
I'm pretty sure that was done recently as a jab at Pat. I've been checking that status for over a year and it always said April of 2009.
Pat posted on his blog (here (http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/2009/03/floating-on-sea-of-love.html)) a screenshot of the B&N site with a 2025 release date for Wise Man's Fear. A B&N employee explained what was going on in a comment to that post: 2025 is their computer system's highest date (for now), and it is the default for books with unknown publication dates. I imagine Amazon's system works similarly (it might even be built on top of the same codebase).
Amazon and B&N are probably big enough that they could afford to take jabs at authors, but there's no reason for them to do so.
-
Well her success rate wasn't that high it was only in comparison to other Aes Sedai and wasn't what you would call a common practice to begin with...anyways it is also known that the biggest success rate is when a warder is given a mission they won't let themselves fail and they have to stay alive to achieve it...such as Lan protecting Nyneave from darkfriends.
-
Joe - It's been too long! I need my vicarious WOT fix!
No pressure though. ;D
-
And your patience is rewarded! LOL
Update you guys! I made it to page 502 on Crown of Swords last night! A lot has happened and this book is getting better and better. Let's see.......
-Rand continues to battle Lews Therin in his head. He frequently battles for control over saidin with Therin, sometimes it requires all of his concentration. Lews Therin still hasn't had a conversation with Rand since he was trapped in the Aes Sedai chest in the last book. Cadsuane was introduced and she kind of put Rand in his place. She is the oldest Aes Sedai alive, no wonder nothing would faze her. I like her and I think she could add a lot to the story, but I'm not sure what her motivations are. Apparently she comes in and out of retirement for big events and every other Aes Sedai treat her with as much reverance as they would the Amyrlin. She asks Rand if he has heard voices yet, because other men who can channel hear them before they go mad. This makes me think it might not be THE Lews Therin in his head but a side affect of the taint. The madness is trying to take control of saidin to do Light knows what. I bet this is what happened during the Breaking of the World. When all male Aes Sedai went mad and destroyed almost everything. Earlier in the book Rand thinks of the possibility of cleansing saidin. It was a quick though but I have suspicions that it may become a huge plot device later on.
-Mat remains in Ebou Dar with Elayne, Nyneave, Aviendha, Thom, Juilin, and Birgitte. Seems he has attracted Queen Tylin's affections. She basically raped him in his room. Those Ebou Dari women sure get what they want! He also spotted the woman who tried to kill her and Rand back in EotW (I think it was EotW.) I remember that scene vividly and I'm glad RJ keeps bringing these characters back. She works for Jaichim Carridan the questioner, who is also a darfriend. He was visited by Sammeal recently too. Interesting that the man whose sole purpose is to hunt down darkfriends when he is one himself. Perfect cover I guess!
I get bad feelings in Ebou Dar, especially when it's Mat's viewpoint. Those damn dice rolling in his head always seem to signal bad luck and they are in such a dangerous place. He has had multiple battles with people trying to kill him already. At least he finally got his apologies from Nyneave and Elayne. Now THAT was a fun scene to read. He recognized Birgitte and they actually decided to get drunk and talk things out. At the same time Elayne was somehow drunk too through the bond she has with Birgitte. VERY well put together scene. I'm honestly glad to see them working together now. I always felt Mat deserved a fair shake.
-Elayne and Nyneave discovered the Circle of women who were either Tower rejects or ran away from the Tower. After a VERY frustrating scene where they tossed out Elayne and Nyneave, not believing they were Aes Sedai, Elayne returned with Merillille and the rest of the Aes Sedai from the palace and brought them all to their knees. This was the first time that Elayne REALLY took charge as queen and Aes Sedai. She put Merillille in her place by explaining that since Egwene raised her to the shawl, and Merillile follows Egwene, then she WILL get the respect she deserves. Elayne also promised the Circle that they can return to the Tower and resumse their training. They were more than grateful and FINALLY revealed their knowledge of the Bowl of the Winds. I thought they'd never find this damn thing! LOL Reanne (leader of the Circle) also revealed that she is 412 years old. Merillille fainted at this news but I'm not entirely sure what the big deal was. If she was Aes Sedai or Accepted, wouldn't it be normal for her to age slower??
-Moghedian has been VERY humbled. She is now under the watch of Moridin whom I haven't met yet. He wears a small box on a necklace that is linked to Moghedian. If he crushes it, she will be crushed. I'm sure it burns her BIG TIME to be controlled by someone she's never met before. She is sent to Ebou Dar. I don't know why she was but I assume it's to hook back up with her Black Ajah pupils she sent there. On the way she spots Nyneave and balefires the ship she saw her on. She suddenly realizes that she was disobeying her instructions from Moridin and quickly gets out of there. It's fun to see Moghedian being the one who is controlled now, but I still worry about her quest for vengeance against Nyneave most of all. Now they are in the same place, perhaps looking for the same thing???
-Alvarian, Elaida's secretary, is a Darkfriend. She answers to Mesaana who I would like to see more of. She teaches Alvarian to Travel....for what purpose I don't know. This also kind of deflates my notion of Elaida being a darkfriend. Although I don't know that for sure, she may just be a witchy Red with a bad attitude afterall.
-Perrin was kicked out of the palace by Rand. I have NO idea why this happened. Is Rand losing it?! When the viewpoint is on Rand his actions are explained. When it's somebody elses viewpoint Rand seems so weird. His actions and his words are so strange and different then when we are in his head. I don't know yet where Perrin went but Berelain and Faile and som Maidens and soldiers went with them. It kind of seems that Rand is wasting a lot of time not going after the Forsaken. Maybe I'm just impatient but I want to see battles!! LOL
-Sevanna and the Shaido Wise Ones are unknowingly working with Sammael and Graendal. They use disguises when they meet with Sevanna though. I'm not sure what they are planning or why they still don't just gang up on Rand. Also, I'm a bit tired of the Shaido in this story. I never liked them opposing Rand and the rest of the Aeil and I always felt that they were one antagonist too many. It's frankly annoying and I was upset that they weren't completely wiped out in either the Carhein battle or Dumai's Wells. I'm sorry if this bothers people, but whenever the Shaido become the focus it kind of deflates my enthusiasm for the story. I feel that everything with them has gone on way too long. That's probably my biggest complaint about the books. Since Shadow Rising they have been a problem. Do they still think Couladin was the real Ca'racarn?? Do they really think they can destroy Rand and the rest of the Aeil?? Is their only motivation being Sevanna's revenge?? It's really annoying and kind of seems to throws a wrench into the flow of the story. I really hope they get taken care of SOON.
-Also, when Sammael and Graendal leave the Wise Ones and are walking through the woods, they are being followed by someone called simply the "watcher." He sees black flecks across his vision and somehow avoids detection from either Forsaken. I think this is Moridin. When he met with Moghedian she noticed black flecks across his eyes and the story explained that is was from the "saa." I hope I learn more about the saa and why the Forsaken are being followed now. Also, who is Moridin?? Another Forsaken reborn??
-Morgase has been "rescued" by the Seachan from the custody of the Whitecloaks. They say they will restore her to the Throne only is she submits fealty to the Empress. They feel that it is time for their "return." Morgase escapes with Lini and Tallanvor and HOPEFULLY she will go straight back to Andor. I also have a feeling that the Seanchan and Mat have a big storyline coming up. They claim to be Artur Hawkwings armys decendants and we all know that Mat is Hawkwing reborn. Also, Mat apparently is supposed to marry the daughter of the Nine Moons, which is also something I've heard the Seanchan talk about. We'll see where this goes......
Okay, that's not really all of it but this is long enough and I'm going to go make myself something to eat! I'm really enjoying this story, except the Shaido, and I'm almost done with the book! I read 100 pages last night!! I hope you guys get your fix and I amd glad this board is so popular. Thanks for the responses guys and I will talk to you later. Have a great day!!! Happy Easter!!
-Joe
-
Yeah! An update from Joe.
I agree with you about the Shaido. It's pretty ridiculous they're still against Rand when Couladan is long dead. My only advice is get used to it. The Shaido don't go away any time soon.
Mat is Artur Hawkwing reborn? I'm not so sure on that, but I've been wrong before. :)
I LOVED that scene where Elayne and Nyneave finally apologize to Matt. I NEVER thought that would happen. Oh, and the scene where Elayne is getting drunk through the warder bond is hilarious.
Aes Sedai age slower than most people, but they don't get close to 412 years old! This was news to me when I first read that part, since it never really says how old Aes Sedai get. Just that they "age slower". I think you'll soon learn a theory about why the Kin live longer than Aes Sedai. It's pretty interesting.
I hear you about Rand not making much sense when you're seeing him through other people's POV. That's one thing I missed in the later books is more insight into what Rand is thinking. I guess it makes sense that Jordan started sharing less and less of Rand's thoughts, since that's now a large part of the suspense. "What will Rand do next?"
Oh, and thanks for the nice long update! Reading them totally brings back the memories of reading this awesome story for the first time.
-
You will see battles.
I'm ambivalent about Nyneave's trials. She is such a spoiled brat that it's good to see her receive a taste of her own medicine, despite the fact that it makes you want to scream when it's a person so stupid and stubborn they won't take the help she's offering.
Mo'adim Lesimkha ;P
-
I loved the Mat getting an apology as well, I love that it was Avi and Brigitte BOTH who told the two to apologize. It gets even cooler when they mention *A* forsaken being there and Brigitte gets even angrier. "He never said anything about a Forsaken." Wow someone needs to do some math again I believe there was at LEAST Four Forsaken running around Tear at the time lol. Nynaeve and Elyane BOTH deserved this humble pie as far as I am concenred my beef is that I don't think they managed to actualy swallow it *sigh* They will eventually give Mat his fair shake but it's going to have to wait.
I guess it would sorta ruin some of the suspense if we knew what Rand was planing all the time. Plus it is interesting to see from outside his perspective so you can see why others see him as really going crazy.
Cadsuane is just this side of awesome, with Moraine gone Rand really needs someone to keep him in check somehow.
Moridin is a Forsaken reborn though I think it's fun for you to try and figure out which one. Here's a hint though it's not Asmo, Bel'lal or Rahvin.
As for action yes be patient, big battles usually come in the end.
-
This makes me think it might not be THE Lews Therin in his head but a side affect of the taint.
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Those damn dice rolling in his head always seem to signal bad luck
Not bad luck so much as significant events that Mat is part of. It's just that a fair number of those that involve Mat also involve things he'd rather avoid.
Reanne (leader of the Circle) also revealed that she is 412 years old. Merillille fainted at this news but I'm not entirely sure what the big deal was. If she was Aes Sedai or Accepted, wouldn't it be normal for her to age slower??
Yes, but not by that much. Reanne is older than any Aes Sedai on record.
Do they still think Couladin was the real Ca'racarn?? Do they really think they can destroy Rand and the rest of the Aeil?? Is their only motivation being Sevanna's revenge?? It's really annoying and kind of seems to throws a wrench into the flow of the story. I really hope they get taken care of SOON.
It's a combination of stupidity and stubborn refusal to accept what they perceive as a Wetlander as their leader. They seem to think they can just ignore the larger conflict against the Dark One.
Also, who is Moridin?? Another Forsaken reborn??
Yep. Process of elimination should tell you which one pretty easily.
Mat is Hawkwing reborn.
If he were, Hawkwing would not have been available when Mat blew the Horn at the end of The Great Hunt.
-
Reanne (leader of the Circle) also revealed that she is 412 years old. Merillille fainted at this news but I'm not entirely sure what the big deal was. If she was Aes Sedai or Accepted, wouldn't it be normal for her to age slower??
I think the oldest Aes Sedai now living is about 270 years old. And thats VERY old according to Aes Sedai themselfs. You will meet her later on :) or maby you allredy did.. i dont remember when she turns up. It is a chock for the Aes Sedai to realise that a kin woman can be over 400 years old.
EDIT: Cadsuane is the now living oldest Aes Sedai. I think its safe to write that now. She is aprox 270 years old.
-
Actually, Cadsuane is closer to 300 than 270, and there is something about her that's different, although she is still way too arrogant and proud. A little hint without giving it away. Did you notice that the Kin, and the Wise Ones and Windfinders for that matter, look different than Aes Sedai? What is the one thing Aes Sedai do that other channeling groups do not?
I will tell you now that Mat is not Artur Hawkwing reborn. If he was, then Artur Hawkwing would not have been there when Mat blew the horn in book 2. He is a reborn general from Manetheren, if anything.
I remember reading an explanation as to why Rand boots Perrin, but I am not sure if it was in the book or in an FAQ somewhere.
-
There is an explanation and it will be from Perrin's POV.
-
Yes I think Rigney's Aes Sedai are a study in power corrupts and ignorance arrogates. He gives the Whitecloaks so real substance to their complaints so that they don't turn into one of those 2d Evil Horde conspiracies (fnords?) that populate so much of SF&F.
I say they are ignorant because their educational system is degenerating because of secrecy, paranoia and the lack of any great incentive to share . Any system where raw power and age are the source of political power is guaranteed to have similar decadent trends. After 200 the Amyrlin is just the most vicious bully who has the best connections, and the most raw power. That is the only reason the Sally Daera crew are organized the way they are. Dog's have a similarly vicious system. :)
-
Oh the Aes Sedai are a perfect case of how a group of people and even a society can stagnate. Due to their own sense of superiority, secracy and paranoia they have ignored so much that is around them they have lost knowledge merely to incompetance. They wait for girls to come to them instead of going out and finding them, they rather let a Ter'angreal collect dust then try to find out what it does. They rather ignore a severed/burned out woman then try to help her, they rather gentle a man and let him die then help him.
Too often they have swept things under the rug and too often they have felt others too stupid to know what to do. The Aes Sedai have really needed a shake up for quite a long time now.
-
Actually, Cadsuane is closer to 300 than 270, and there is something about her that's different, although she is still way too arrogant and proud. A little hint without giving it away. Did you notice that the Kin, and the Wise Ones and Windfinders for that matter, look different than Aes Sedai? What is the one thing Aes Sedai do that other channeling groups do not?
I will tell you now that Mat is not Artur Hawkwing reborn. If he was, then Artur Hawkwing would not have been there when Mat blew the horn in book 2. He is a reborn general from Manetheren, if anything.
I remember reading an explanation as to why Rand boots Perrin, but I am not sure if it was in the book or in an FAQ somewhere.
Yepp i saw that now, she is exactly 295 years old. She was however 267 years old in New spring, thats why i did remember that number i think. My mistake.
-
Thanks for the responses guys!!
Okay, okay, I got the whole "Mat is Hawking reborn" very wrong. I never thought to link the fact that heros who are reborn cannot be summoned back from the "dead" by the Horn of Valere.
Also,
-Forgot to mention that Lan found Nyneave. He rescued her right after Moghedian balefired her ship in half. Although I found this scenario extremely convenient, I still enjoyed it. I am actually a big fan of Nyneave and I like seeing how Lan breaks down all (or most) of her emotional wards. A man who can make Nyneave fall in love truly is something else. It's fun watching her try to remain serene and Aes Sedai-like while she really wishes to melt into Lan's arms like a school girl. Combine that with her forcing herself to be humbled in Mat's presence (of all people!!) this book has been a great trip for Nyneave (at least as far as reading her story goes...might not say the same for her!!.)
-Rand and Min spend almost all of their time together. Seems he has fallen in love again! I like this development even though I think falling in love with a woman (let alone three) is not a timely thing when you're training to save the world whil going mad at the same time. O well, I enjoy these subplots.
-As far as guessing which Forsaken has been reborn as Moridin.......I'll go with Ishamael on this one. He's the only Forsaken who's death wasn't FINAL. (except Lanfear's) When Rand defeated him at the end of Dragon Reborn (?) it didn't feel like a FINAL death. If that doesn't make sense, sorry, it's the only way I can describe it. Plus, since Ishamael manipulated his appearence with the saa, being Ba'alzamon, he could be Moridin too.
-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!
Thanks for the responses guys!! I'm glad you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoy writing it!!
-Joe
-
-Forgot to mention that Lan found Nyneave. He rescued her right after Moghedian balefired her ship in half. Although I found this scenario extremely convenient, I still enjoyed it. I am actually a big fan of Nyneave and I like seeing how Lan breaks down all (or most) of her emotional wards. A man who can make Nyneave fall in love truly is something else. It's fun watching her try to remain serene and Aes Sedai-like while she really wishes to melt into Lan's arms like a school girl. Combine that with her forcing herself to be humbled in Mat's presence (of all people!!) this book has been a great trip for Nyneave (at least as far as reading her story goes...might not say the same for her!!.)
Convenient, yes, but it was set up and executed quite well. I'm especially amused to think of how Moghedian might react when she learns that she broke Nynaeve's block. :o
-As far as guessing which Forsaken has been reborn as Moridin.......I'll go with Ishamael on this one. He's the only Forsaken who's death wasn't FINAL. (except Lanfear's) When Rand defeated him at the end of Dragon Reborn (?) it didn't feel like a FINAL death. If that doesn't make sense, sorry, it's the only way I can describe it. Plus, since Ishamael manipulated his appearence with the saa, being Ba'alzamon, he could be Moridin too.
Correct, you got it in one! For a more complete and less "feel" based analysis, of the Forsaken that have died up to that point:
Aginor and Balthamel have already been brought back as Aran'gar and Osan'gar.
Be'lal was killed by balefire and is beyond the Dark One's reach.
Rahvin was killed by balefire and is beyond the Dark One's reach.
Asmodean betrayed the Dark One.
That leaves only Lanfear and Ishamael. Moridin's personality and goals just don't fit Lanfear at all, and she has hardly done anything to earn the high position Moridin has, so that leaves Ishamael as the only possibility.
-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!
If you think back to the Rhuidean history scene where you get a glimpse of the drilling of the Bore, you'll note that Mierin and Beidomon thought they had found a new source of the One Power (or something very similar), usable by both genders. They were technically correct, they just didn't count on this source having a mind and goals of its own.
The True Power is, essentially, the Dark One's personal power. He can allow channelers to channel it instead of the One Power. It has a number of advantages, such as being undetectable by anyone not also using the True Power, but is also extremely addictive and has some nasty side effects if used repeatedly. Ba'alzamon's fiery eyes are an advanced form of the saa, for example.
-
Since douglas covered Ishy Moridin pretty well I'll address the whole Lan saving Nynaeve. I know it may seem convienant but it wasn't like he just happened to be there. I think Rand took him there didn't he? Just a few days ride from Ebu Dar. I also hope you noticed something else very important about that scene, something Nynaeve has been dealing with for a very long time now. Expect a major attitude change with Nynaeve.
I can't help but say that Rand/Min is my favorite couple of the series. I know it may not be prudant for Rand to fall in love but who says that Love is logical?
-
I think Rand took him there didn't he?
It was Egwene. Rand hasn't seen Lan since shortly after Moiraine jumped Lanfear.
-
Aginor and Balthamel have already been brought back as Aran'gar and Osan'gar.
Problem here. From all I can see one is a woman in a man's body and the other reverses this. I believe both Aginor and Balthamel were males so this would prevent at least one of them from being Arangar and Osangar (heh left and right. Ryos should appreciate that).
As for Moridin I always suspected that he was a fade that had been "upgraded" He has such pronounced Saa because he only uses the True Source. There was a particular fade that we see just for one little vignette where he is playing house with a captive human woman. Always thought he might be Moridin.
-
@Douglas: Thank you I thought it was a woman and Egwene would make far more sense then Rand lol. It seems *I* need to do a re-read of the series.
@Renoard: RJ has pretty much confirmed that it is Balthamel who is in the Woman's body aka Aran'Gar. Since Balthamel was a womanizer they thought it was a great joke to put him in a woman's body. Aginor trust me is in Osan'gar's body, I'd cite evidence but that would be spoilers for JoeC.
-
Both Aran'gar and Osan'gar channel Saidin, so both were originally male. Additionally, none of the Forsaken that die before those two are resurrected are female. If that's not enough to convince you, see the WOTFAQ entry on it, 1.2.1: Who are Aran'gar and Osan'gar? (http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/wotfaq/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.1_gars.html) Note for JoeC: this particular page of the Wheel of Time FAQ no longer has any spoilers for you. Just be careful about following the links on it.
Shaidar Haran is completely separate from Moridin and there is no reason to suspect any other fade has been given special powers. The WOTFAQ has a Who is Moridin? (http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/wotfaq/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.3_moridin.html) page that gives the subject a very thorough treatment. Note for JoeC: stay away from this page, it has some spoilers through Winter's Heart.
-
-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!
Saidar and Saidin are the female/male aspects of the One Power. I always saw this as the power of the creator, since it comes from the true source and literally "powers" the wheel of time ;D
The True Power however is the direct personal power of the Dark One. It is extremely powerful, addictive and only the DO himself can allow you to use it. Pretty serious stuff ;D
-
-Also, Moridin claims to draw power from the "True Power". Not the True Source, or the One Power, but the True Power. This is a new development. He says it's from the Dark One himself. Well, I know that the male Forsaken are immune to the taint once linked to the Dark One. Is this what that means?? Untainted saidin drawn directly from the Dark One? Or is this a while new Source altogether. Confusing!!!
Saidar and Saidin are the female/male aspects of the One Power. I always saw this as the power of the creator, since it comes from the true source and literally "powers" the wheel of time ;D
The True Power however is the direct personal power of the Dark One. It is extremely powerful, addictive and only the DO himself can allow you to use it. Pretty serious stuff ;D
It's the ultimate and best way to control someone through addiction. Shame someone so smart and powerful can be so.... stupid.
-
And the true power will destroy everyone who use it in the end. Thats why they get the black spots that flicker over their eyes (sa). The more they use the true power...the closer they get to destruction.
-
Yes the next stage is actual fire coming from his eyes and mouth. Seriously this man is just plain in Insane in the membrane.
-
Yes he is :) But still, he does alot of mistakes. ordering the Black Ajah and the other Forsaken around but dont get anything done. Imo, i dont think he will be the leader of the Forsaken for long, but still, the dark lord maby want it to be that way. The dark lord allways wanted the Forsaken to fight with each other so the strongest ones will be there when TG comes.
That proves that the dark lord isnt very smart...
Im glad you enjoyed the Nyneave development :D She is a great character and i laugh out laud somethimes when i read about her. There is still one more charater who will grow ALOT...i wont tell anything about him/her now, but i think you will enjoy the ride in Knife of dreams.
-
the true source doesn't destroy you it has a price that is never specified but only a few are willing to pay it even among the forsaken...the price is somehow linked to ishy's madness
-
Careful with your terminology there, Kaz. The True Source is what the One Power (Saidin and Saidar) comes from. What you meant was the True Power.
-
woops i guess i should proof my work, though my point still stands the power that runs off the dark one has side effects that are very cost worthy but no where does it state that it destroys the user...
-
Well in tDR when we see Ishy's body his mouth and eyes are black burned out holes. Though I suppose that could have something to do with the fact that he's dead but it just doesn't seem like a good thing to do to ones body.
-
I was sure that Saidar/Saidin were The Source or the One Power and the other was the True Source or True Power alternatively. Granted my last reading was nearly 3 years ago and hectic years they were.
-
Hey guys!! I got a lot of reading done last night, and I know I will finish it tonight and have a final update for you maybe tomorrow. I just figured I'd write one now because a lot happened last night.
Okay,
-Rand went to see the Sea Folk. He went to announce himself as the Coramoor. Although they claimed he had to Bargain with them, Rand wasn't having it. He basically told them what's up, and it's his way or the highway. He told them they WILL help transport soldiers and battle the Seanchan. The Wavemistress was stunned to find herself PULLED toward agreement. Rand feels that this is ta'varen working in his favor and leaves with Min.
Rand decides to take Min with him to settle the rebels. After leaving the gateway they immediately run into a lady that Min almost mistakes for Moiraine. She is Caraline Domodred. I'm hoping this turns out to be Moiraine's sister or something. BTW, the Damodred's and Trakand's are mixed together bunch if I recall correctly. I forget exactly who married who, but I always wondered if Moiraine and Elayne were related. Also, I wish I got to see Moiraine interact with her family when Rand and the Aeil were in Carhein.
But anyways a man named Darlin comes too and Min views that Caraline and Darlin are to be married, although it won't be an easy path getting there. With Min and Rand pretending to be Caraline's cousins (she knows who they are) they are led to a tent where there are the rebels with Aes Sedai, including Cadsuane, and a man named Toram who also holds affections towards Caraline and is EXTREMELY jealous. Finally, Rand spots Padan Fain. Man, my heart was racing when I read that. I've been WAITING for the two of them to square off. When Rand was explaining to Caraline who Fain was, I laughed when he said "He is a Darkfriend.......and a dead man." I wonder why Rand didn't immediately seize him with Air but I understand he was worried about the Aes Sedai, because a few of them were Red. A jealous Toram challenges Rand to spar with wooden sticks. It is a fairly even battle until Fain attacks. I didn't expect Fain to be this powerful. I always wondered how he overpowered a Myrrdral a couple of books back. I see how the powers he gains from/as Mordeth are useful. Amassing a huge fog and creating creatures that are made of the mist yet can kill in brutal ways. Rand reveals himself by using balefire on on of these things. That makes Toram fly into a rage, blaming Rand for all of it and runs away. It also earns him a swift slap across the face from Cadsuane. I like her a lot.
-Fain himself makes an attempt on Rand and actually scores a hit with his cursed dagger. Since the dagger is instant death he runs away. Fortunately the sisters were right there and could immediately apply Healing. My heart jumped in my throat when is said Fain got him with the knife because I remember the horrible death a Novice suffered from that blade when Fain was in the White Tower a while back. He cut Rand right over his unHealable wound from Ba'alzamon. When brought back to the palace the Asha'man decide to take a crack at Healing. One actually manages to do a better job than the Aes Sedai. She demands he teach her how he did it. LOL That had me laughing too. How awful it must have been for her to ASK a male channeler to teach her something. He claims he didn't really heal it, he sealed the wounds off from Rand. Only temporarily though. This was a really good chapter. I'm a little concerned that the wounds are only sealed off and not fully Healed. I bet Rand is going to wake up foaming at the mouth with revenge for Fain. I REALLY REALLY want to see Rand battle him.
-The Kin lead Nyneave, Elayne, Mat, Lan, and some soldiers to the house that holds the Bowl of the Winds. There they encounter two Black Ajah and other soldiers. A fierce battle ensues between Mat, Lan, and the Red Band against the Darkfriends while Nyneave battles the two Black Ajah herself....and they're LINKED. She begs Mat to go upstairs because she heard Elayne scream and felt channeling. (I see what you guys were saying about Nyneave's attitude changes.) When Mat arrives he finds chaos. Elayne is injured and several of Mat's soldiers are dead along with Reanne and a few Kin. Killed by a mystery man who Mat does battle with. He isn't named, but is faster and stronger than a Myrrdral and pretty much kicks the crap out of Mat. A soldier who tries to save Mat has his throat ripped out by this mystery man. Mat continues to fight the man and at one point on the ground, Mat's foxhead medallion slips out of his shirt and when it touches the mans face it burns him. Realizing he can use the medallion as a weapon, Mat chases the guy into a closet. But when Mat breaks the door down, the man is gone. They get the Bowl of the Winds, Heal anyone that can be healed, and Mat orders all of them to leave Ebou Dar immediately.
Now THIS was a great chapter. I'm very intrigued by this mystery man Mat fought. Apparently he can channel, because he must've Traveled to get out of that closet. I don't know why he was burned by the medallion though. Is he MADE from the One Power?? LOL Perhaps I don't know everything about this medallion. Also, Elayne said her flows vanished with him, just like they did with Mat's medallion. As for his identity, I initially suspected Moridin/Ishamael. Now I'm not so sure. Remind you I haven't finished the book, so we'll see. I love it when Mat gets into the fight. I would have to say he's my favorite character right now. All the stuff with Queen Tylin is hilarious.
Okay, I should probably do more updates for a few reasons. First and most important, I know you guys like them and I really am humbled by your enjoyment of this thread. Second, so much stuff happens in a few chapters which means the longer time between updates, the bigger update I have to write. Unfortunately, since I have to cover so much, important things are left out. Like my update from a week ago. This update above, was only a couple of chapters, and look how long it is. There is lots to discuss. So if you guys feel I'm slacking......let me know! I'm always reading, and I can pretty much do an update anytime. I check this thread EVERY day so don't think your messages don't get through. This thread is for you guys as much as it is for me too!! So, I have only about 65 pages left and I will finish CoS tonight. Which means FINAL update tomorrow hopefully. I'm really excited to see how this ends. Take care guys!!!
-Joe
-
that thing that Mat fought was the gholam. gholams were pretty much made in order to assassinate channelers, because channeling has no effect on them. the gholam can't use the power though. he was able to escape by squeezing through a small hole, since they have no bones. gholams are pretty cool creatures!
-
Caraline Damodred and Moiraine are cousins. Elayne's father was also a Damodred, not sure exactly how related, but Morgase married him for political reasons. So they're all one big happy family. And yeah, the gholam is pretty cool. You'll see him again. Fortunately for Mat, the medallion is pretty much the only way to defend yourself.
We appreciate it whenever you update, JoeC!
-
Killer gumbies on dust!
Damodred Demandred ... hmmm
I guess it's lucky for Rand that Cairhienin and Andoran nobles are okay with kissing cousins.
-
Damodred Demandred ... hmmm
Don't think so.
I guess it's lucky for Rand that Cairhienin and Andoran nobles are okay with kissing cousins.
They're really not that closely related. Rand asks someone about it and she tells him that if the houses weren't noble, they wouldn't really be considered related.
Also, here's a link to the family tree that I think is spoiler-free.
http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.5_lurv/2.5.1_whos-who-fam.html
-
Gholam is also what killed the philospher guy... I think your right about the Gholam being made of the power since the medallion seems to melt weaves made of power.
Yes Nynaeve is quickly becoming a much more easier to read character, not as cuastic when she doesn't have to contend with a block and now has her own "warder" of sorts.
-
Gholam were, yet another wonderful creature, created by Aginor....
Philospher guy = Herid Fel
-
Yes, that chapter with Mat fighting the "mystery man"/Gholam is the one I was saying was like my favorite chapter in the series. I wouldn't have told you who he was, but it seems everyone else has. You probably find out who he is pretty soon.
I also love Mat--he's the coolest. In the rest of the books he is still the coolest--starting with book 9 or so, I'd skip ahead and just read his parts before reading the rest of the book. I'm bad, I know.
So--why are most guys I talk to ok with this whole "Rand loves 3 women" thing? lol I find Min EXTREMELY annoying and--I also find Rand annoying (like how he is insane and rude and all--not all his fault, but I just don't enjoy reading about him).
-
Achren, it's no big deal to explain the gholam because in the very next chapter, 39, Birgitte explains it all to Mat.
-
It's not just the guys but the female WoT fan base seems just fine with it as well, so long as all four of them know and are willing to get into that sort of relationship very few seem to really be bothered by it. I'm curious to see if the movies get that far and keep the whole "Rand is going to marry three women."
-
I think most people accept it because Rand and his three gals really have no control over it. All three are being forced by the pattern to Rand. Not that the forcing causes them to love him any less but they really have no choice in the matter. Take, for example, Aviendha who tried with all her will, and she is one with an extraordinary amount of will, to not fall for Rand. Yet in the end she did. Also, like Shard said, they are all informed and agree to the situation.
-
There are other reasons the polygyny seems natural. We see an entire nation, the Aeil, practice it regularly and are being reintegrated. It's not so much that the girls are okay with it as they planned it and arranged it without his consent. And major portions of WoT World are governed directly or indirectly by a massive and corrupt quasi-religious matriarchy.
-
Well it isn't like he is not in love with all three of them, not to mention he is Aiel afterall. We should be careful about this subject as JoeC is still on aCoS still.
-
It is also possible that they are all former lovers of his and that since they are all born in the same era that he is attached to them all...
Ileyna Elyane???
-
Yeah I have seen that theory before as well, it's an interesting theory and topic for that matter. There's not that many stories out there with reincarnation. At least not in main stream US literature that I have seen anyways...
-
It is also possible that they are all former lovers of his and that since they are all born in the same era that he is attached to them all...
Ileyna Elyane???
That and other similarities convinced me that Elayne was Ilyena. However, Rand loves three different women. So I've basically come up with two different rival theories:
1. Elayne, Min, and Avhienda are all 1/3 of Ilyena. Somehow her thread got frayed in the cosmic scheme of the Pattern or whatnot.
OR
2. Elayne is Ilyena, and she is who Rand loves as Lews Therin. Min is who Rand would have loved as himself if he had not been the Dragon. Avhienda...not really sure. I never liked her anyway :P
Unfortunately, neither of these theories are really satisfactory.
-
Um maybe Rand is just honest. Given the number of historical figures who were polygynous, and how many men have "a little something on the side" it seems likely that it's a part of human biology to be polygynous. Our nearest primate relatives are. And yes, as unequal as it is, Chimps are polygynous but not polyandronous. Top ape protects his harem until he's too old, then the girls leave him and find another dumb ape to fawn over. Remember I'm talking about chimps not people. Hey put down that frying pan!
;) :P ;D
-
Update!! I finished Crown of Swords last night!!
Not a WHOLE lot happened, but some very good scenes. I'm so glad I did that update yesterday as opposed to waiting for today. Great book btw.
-Mat finally convinces the Aes Sedai to leave Ebou Dar. Although he did it in a fashion I didn't expect. He basically told everyone how it was and ORDERED them to leave. I got to read about Birgitte explaining the gholem to him. That they were specifically made to fight channelers. There are six in total. 3 male and 3 female and the Power is useless against them. I think they are so cool! Why wait this long to put them in the series?!? I can't wait to see them in a full on battle.
Okay, anyways, Mat leaves the palace to go find Olver before they leave and he finds that the Seanchan are attacking. He witnesses them burning ships and collared female channelers destroying the city as people run away. In an alley he is attacked and a big brick wall falls on top of him. Mat's final thoughts are that they dice stopped spinning in his head and that his luck had ran out. I'm fairly confident that this isn't the end of Mat. It BETTER not be. I've come to suspect any death that RJ writes that doesn't include balefire or beheading...lol.
-Rand, even though he's weakened, decides to take the Asha'man to Illian to kill Sammael. This was a great scene of Rand chasing Sammael through the city after setting off all the wards that had been set to warn of Rand's coming. Rand chases the Forsaken to Shadar Logoth....and it's NIGHT there! When the mashadar is at it's strongest. He battles Trollocs and Fades while eluding Sammael's lightning strikes. At one point he sees Liah, the Maiden who dissapeared last time they were in Shadar Logoth, kill some Trollocs. Apparently, she has lost her mind a little bit but recovers when she sees Rand's face and hears his voice. Yet she runs away anyway. This was confusing to me, and even more confusing when Rand spots Liah later when he's trying to ambush Sammael. She has been grabbed by the mashadar and Rand balefire's her to save her the pain. He also balefires in the direction where Sammael was. The Forsaken is gone and Rand is not sure wether he killed him or not. But how did Liah survive all this time?? Why didn't she respond when they searched for her the day she ran off??
Also, earlier when Rand was running from the lightning strikes, he almost falls through a rotted floor and is saved by ANOTHER mystery man. Love these mystery men! Seeing mashadar heading for them they both unleash balefire at the fog. When they do this they accidently(?) cross the streams of balefire (Ghostbusters reference!!!!) and it appears Rand got very close to tearing the Pattern of where they were. I never thought of the consequences of crossing balefire streams. Very interesting, yet it's too bad Rand doesn't heed Cadsuane's words. I feel like he might get balefire-happy and cause something terrible to happen. The mystery man runs away after hinting to Rand where he can find Sammael. Only then does Rand realize that the man channeled without Rand sensing it. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that the mystery man was Moridin/Ishamael and Rand couldn't sense his weaves because he was drawing from the True Power of the Dark One. But then, why the heck would Ishy help Rand?? Man there are layers and more damn layers with this book. I love it!!
This was a great book in the series, though Fires of Heaven still remains my favorite. I don't feel that the series has been going downhill. I feel the books have kept a steady stream of entertainment even if some of the plot lines go on too long. I can imagine what it must have been like to wait years for the next book in the series only to be confronted with more questions than answers, and another few years for the next book. By the way, I'm no stranger to this. LOL I know I joke about how you must hate me for not having to wait for the books, but believe me I've been there. It was AGONY waiting for Stephen King's The Dark Tower series to conclude. Same with Mistborn. I feel very fortunate to be able to read WOT straight through and be caught up with everyone else in anticipation for Memory of Light. I got my hardcover of Path of Daggers and I'm ready to go!! Thanks for the response guys!! Take care!!
-Joe
-
I hate when that happens. Nothing as miserable as popping into the gate keep when you mean to go to Jaffar. . . And the blight worms! sigh. :)
-
About beheading and balefire, that's a good rule of thumb JoeC always demand to see the body!
As for Liah I suspect she has become corrupt and a carrier of the Shadar Logoth taint. She was no longer safe to leave the place. This is just my theory on it but I think she didn't want to face Rand because he would have to kill her.
I noted you didn't ask but I wanted to save you any frustation but Sammeal is dead. The sooner you know that the better, Mashadar btw was what got him and no the book will not tell you that.
Well PoD the next book is where I think people really felt the story went down but I don't think it was bad at all. I think the abscense of the two year wait will make a huge difference as well. I think people built up too much expectations on what should happen and all that in the next book they felt dissapointed and didn't value what DID happen.
Well at the rate your going your going to join the "waiting for the next book" since the Last one is being split into three and we get one each year, or at least that's the plan. So you'll be waiting for books 13 and 14 with the rest of us. :D
-
Mat hasn't married the Daughter of the Nine Moons yet (remember that ter'angreal doorway in the Stone of Tear?), so of course he's not dead.
I especially liked the bit about deliberately setting off every last ward in the entire city. Setting off one or two? That's like announcing ignorance and stupidity along with your attack. Setting off every single one? That's like saying "Hi, I know exactly what you did to prepare for this. Go ahead and come back to face me, I dare you! I'm ready."
Ishamael has a very specific goal - he wants Rand to die at the Last Battle. That, or turn him, but I think Rand's convinced him pretty thoroughly that's not going to work.
And yeah, you'll be joining us in the impatient waiting soon enough. At the rate you're going you'll be completely caught up even before The Gathering Storm comes out this November, and it'll be another two years after that before it's finally done.
-
Waiting was odd, because I had a lot going on IRL. About the time I could raise my head to look around, a new volume was released. KoD was the only one that felt lagged for me.
It was a relief when the Asha'man got deployed in Illian. I kept expecting that they would be held back until TG. I still don't see why people like Nyneave. I'm convinced that when the twenty and thirty somethings get to be fourty something they'll realize she is still seriously immature by KoD. Egwene and Elayne are maturing much faster. When Rand scales the wall, Elayne seemed like little more than a sweet child, and Egwene was pretty bad when they left Emond's Field.
But Rand is pretty stagnated by the messiah complex. . .
-
Nynaeve had alot happering her attitude, her always having to be angry enough to channel and her frustrations with Lan. After those two things were surrmounted in aCoS she does become alot easier to read, at least for me she did. She becomes less snappish, less judgemental in some regards and eventually even begins to be nicer about the boys. I think honestly she really came through in WH. Elayne on on the other hand... *grumbles*
-
I got to read about Birgitte explaining the gholem to him. That they were specifically made to fight channelers. There are six in total. 3 male and 3 female and the Power is useless against them. I think they are so cool! Why wait this long to put them in the series?!? I can't wait to see them in a full on battle.
He didn't wait, it was the/a gholem that killed Harid Fel.
As for Nynaeve and Elayne, I agree with Shard that Nynaeve's attitude has gotten much better while Elayne seems to be getting worse (even before she got knocked up). The middle of the series when both of them were stuck together, those sections were a difficult read >:(
-
@ Renoard I watched a 2 hour discovery channel special on the biological anaylsis on human mating and promiscutiy acctually exist in some humans on a biological level it comes from the lack of a certain chemical in the brain...but if you do have it you are much more likely to stay faithful to one person your entire life. :o
-
I'm glad you are enjoying the books. I am doing my reread and am just finishing The Great Hunt. Only 40 pages left. I stopped last night right after Rand killed the Seanchan lord in a sword fight. It amazes me that he can beat a true swordmaster after less then a year of having a sword. The void isn't specific to men who can channel so most swordmasters probably use it. This was also the part were we learn all sul'dam can be leashed. I can't wait to get home and read about the battle in the sky.
-
I heard a saying once that Sword fighting isn't about skill, but about timing. Still it was not an easy fight for him at all.
-
I noted you didn't ask but I wanted to save you any frustation but Sammeal is dead. The sooner you know that the better, Mashadar btw was what got him and no the book will not tell you that.
How do you know? The WOT encyclopedia? It seems odd that RJ would leave such an important death so vague. Thanks for telling me though, I would have been expecting Sammael around every corner LOL.
Mat hasn't married the Daughter of the Nine Moons yet (remember that ter'angreal doorway in the Stone of Tear?), so of course he's not dead.
I was thinking of that today actually hahaha. I'm about 100 pages into PoD and I haven't seen him yet. Though Nyneave, Elayne, and EVERY one else EXCEPT Mat took off for the Kin farm to use the Bowl of the Winds. They just left him there!!
As for Nynaeve and Elayne, I agree with Shard that Nynaeve's attitude has gotten much better while Elayne seems to be getting worse (even before she got knocked up).
Um....haven't gotten there just yet. LOL
-
Random facts about WoT names:
Shai Tan is the name for devil in Indian (or the approximate area, asia not america) folklore
Sammael means venom / poison of god and is the angelic name of Satan (which is a title) when he loses his name as Lucifer in Judeo-Christian mythology...
-
That was random. But cool. ;) Did you just type the names into Google?
-
That was random. But cool. ;) Did you just type the names into Google?
@Shaggy-here's a link with a lot of sources RJ took material from:
http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/3_sources/index.html
(http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/3_sources/index.html) (May not be safe for Joe, didn't check).
I noted you didn't ask but I wanted to save you any frustation but Sammeal is dead. The sooner you know that the better, Mashadar btw was what got him and no the book will not tell you that.
How do you know? The WOT encyclopedia? It seems odd that RJ would leave such an important death so vague. Thanks for telling me though, I would have been expecting Sammael around every corner LOL.
From WOT FAQ:
Killed by Mashadar during his battle with Rand in Shadar Logoth at the end of ACOS; this was confirmed by RJ during the CNN chat on December 12, 2000: "Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!" (reported by Erica Sadun and Patrick Cotrona)
Yeah, it was kind of weird that he didn't make it more obvious in the book. But it is definitely fact.
-
RJ was asked in his Question a Week faq, which you can't read just yet. However there WAS alot of questions if Sam was dead or not so they asked him and RJ answered yes. So I am also guessing that Sammeal is on the DO's crap list and is not going to be re-cycled. Though I have to admit that's more of a hope at this point *sigh*
Speaking of which you can now read the Big White Book aka The Wheel of Time Encyclopedia. It's a little odd that it was made just after aCoS but it contains mostly information on area's that Jordan wasn't going to explore IE The Seachan homeland, Shara and the Land of Madmen. It does contain alot of information on the nations plus alot of history as well.
Also maybe I should say that Mat isn't going to be appearing in PoD...
-
Sammael could be out of favor with the Dark One, or it could be that Mashadar's nature is such that it can keep the souls it kills out of the Dark One's grasp. Mashadar was born of hatred and mistrust, but that hatred was directed above all else at the Dark One and all his servants, and it is clearly supernatural.
I agree, we probably should settle the suspense in this matter early for JoeC. It's no fun constantly looking and waiting for a character that never appears, and he may enjoy the book more without that. So: Mat does not appear again until Winter's Heart.
-
*nods* I had a friend who loved Mat and was glad to be told so he didn't have to constantly wonder where Mat was. I guess we can tell JoeC that Mat is in bed recovering from his wounds, having a wall fall on you will do that. BTW that's a paraphrasing what RJ said to the question of where is Mat. I think that may have upset people with PoD as well expecting him to be there and having to wait another two years to see him again.
-
@Shaggy i was into angelology and demonology at one point in time and i just remembered that so i posted it
-
Um...careful with the spoilers guys--Joe obviously had no way of knowing about Elayne. As for the Mat in book 8 part, I guess it might be better to find out before hand...but it's kind of up to him. I, of course, read ahead to find the Mat parts and didn't find any.
Book 8 has other good parts, so I enjoyed it overall.
-
Considering it was one of the biggest reasons I think people hated on PoD I decided it was a good idea to let him know NOW.
-
Understandably, as Mat IS the best character. But, yes, I see your point. :)
-
Mat is a great Character, but I think Perrin is better. He's level headed. He has no special powers beyond wolf talk and taveren. But he shows wit and intellect and he works out sound strategy without magical memories telling him the answers. Still he has worked his way into the office of Warlord and Married his way into Royalty.
-
Mat is really the only character I actually like reading :(
At times, Egwene is fun to read, and at times, Elayne is fun to read.
-
Mat is a great Character, but I think Perrin is better. He's level headed. He has no special powers beyond wolf talk and taveren.
You make it sound like his wolf powers consist only of talking to other wolves. It's a bit more than that.
-
It's a bit more, but unlike Rand and Mat, it isn't a magical trove of unearned knowledge that makes him an unbeatable commander. All of his skills are talent or learning, and the wisdom to use his advisers to good advantage. This is a more impressive ability than having it handed to you by a reincarnation or a malicious curse turned to good advantage.
I saw somewhere that someone commented that Mat was not the reincarnation of someone but had lot's of memories, but most reincarnation beliefs involve multiple lives. It's quite likely that Mat is experiencing memories of past lives, but many more of them than Rand. That is an even more powerful resource than Lews therin becuase the memory is not accompanied by a full blown psychotic alter ego. By slowly integrating the memories he gets the benifit of the experience without the baggage of Lew's Theron.
-
Perrin also has the developed ability to smell people's moods so he has a bit of mind reading going on, on a empathic level.
Mat has the collected memories of people who have come into contact with the Finns, it is possible some are past lives or even just related to him but the majority are just people who came into contact with the Finns.
-
I just wanted to add that one of Perrin's special abilities seem to match that of a dreamer---his wolf skills give him special access to the world of dreams, including premonitions.
This is definitely above and beyond what is normal in Randland.
I can't help but wonder sometimes if there is some common principle between Min's viewing, Hurin's sniffing and Perrin's wolfbrother abilities. It seems to me that the world is changing and something new is going to dominate the next age. That something may be the common denominator represented by these new, non-Power talents.
-
Unless you've gotten that from Rigney's notes you might want to be careful about making such definitive statements.
There is real reason to believe these are Mat's personal past life experiences. One of the most important reasons, is that the memories seem to be from people who are opposed to the One Power and the Aes Sedai in particular. In other words not people who would be walking into a terangreal. Secondly Matt's "wish" was for his memory to be restored. Thirdly if it were people who encountered the "finns" then it would have included people who were male Aes Sedai and false dragons. None of his memories include men who remember using the One Power, and reasonable the majority of people encountering the "finns" would have been.
The idea that it is a selection of past encounters with the finns just doesn't hold together logically or by the rules of WoT world.
The sensible interpretation is that they are therefore "his' memories, but in true Eel Finn/Ael Finn perversity they are not the one's from the life he is currently living and intended.
-
But Mat has memories that are from people on two different sides of a battle. He can't be more than one person at once; therefore, not all the memories are his.
ETA: Just checked the FAQ. RJ did make a statement about this:
RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.
See http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.5_mat-memory.html
Oh, and apparently my original statement was false. My bad.
-
There is real reason to believe these are Mat's personal past life experiences.
Renoard - I don't think so. I agree with melbatoast on this one. I seem to remember Matt having memories from multiple people in the same age. Melbatoast mentioned Matt having memories from multiple people in the same battle (even different sides of the same battle). I can't think of any examples of that, but I seem to remember something like that too. Anyone have the books handy and want to point out some examples? :P
Seems to me that Matt's memories are just a bunch of memories from different people, mostly generals and commanders. I'm not sure if the memories are from people that visited the land of Finn or not, but that theory at least makes a little bit of sense. I seem to remember the Finn vicariously "enjoying" people's memories when they were visiting with them. I think that's the reason the Finn even allow humans to contact them. They gain something from sifting through people's memories. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is it kind of makes sense the Finn would have access to people's memories that they could have dumped into Matt.
-
As we say in my discipline "the author is dead." Before anyone reads a slight to Mr. Rigney into that, Brian is "dead" too, where his writing is concerned. Once it goes to the printer, the Author dies and Brian turns into just another writer. :P The responses of the reader as they experience the work, limited by some rules for good sense interpretation, are where the story lives. Once the audience gets ahold of it the writer has a lot less to do with the meaning or what's "true." :)
When I approach a work I look in the assumptions that characters make about how to interpret things and base a lot of my analysis on using these assumptions to intentionally bias my interpretations. It works well enough but can leave me at odd's with a writer about his own work. :P If there really are examples of multiple men from the same battle then that would tend to eliminate the possibility that they are Mat's past lives, but that remains to be proven.
But I still maintain that they couldn't be limited to or even mostly composed of people who used the terangreal because that would require men who channeled in battle to be part of the mess. As for ancestors, reincarnation myths don't require that the reincarnated be incarnated as their own descendants. The wolf theory you brought up earlier highlights this point. Also It's not necessary that the people are from different ages. An age is an awfully long time. Besides they same spirit could have been one person on one trip round the wheel and another one on the next. So being in the same battle more than once is not completely impossible either. :D
-
If there really are examples of multiple men from the same battle then that would tend to eliminate the possibility that they are Mat's past lives, but that remains to be proven.
Matt says it himself several times in the text. I would give you page numbers, but my copies of the books are in audio form :P
-
By the time I was done, I'd argued myself back to remembering that it doesn't completely prove me wrong. :P
-
Yes but then we could refute that whole Taimandred Theory and we'd get NO WHERE fast. I suspect he didn't want us to waste any further time on a dead end theory. Though Matt's memories are different just don't expect him to do any reflection like "Gee I screwed up in my last life didn't I?" Like you would in Katheryn Kerr's stories. They can't ALL be his lives since he does remember both sides of the battles. When a person goes to the Finns and makes their questions or requests there is ALWAYS a price to pay. Memories is just one of them.
Hence from RJ himself:
RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.
The Finns take from each person and give either answers or items to fullfill requests. Otherwise I don't think they'd have any Bargain at all if they didn't get something out of it. They are not doing it for free, they are doing it to get something. The humans have only just forgotten what it was they are giving or having taken from them.
-
No there's no doubt that the people going into the terangreal are leaving something behind. But I'm just saying that wherever they got the memories, it wasn't primarily from those visitors. If the finns could simply copy memories it wouldn't cause amnesia in the victims. If it is a process where the memories are extracted and leave amnesia behind, then they would have lost and gained nothing from mat, so no bargain.
The memories had to come from someplace else. What we agree on is that the memories are a huge advantage for the young and upwardly mobile warlord. His ability to sometimes consciously control the effects of his taveren nature are another. His ability to sense whether events are falling in his favor or against him without knowing the facts is a third. MAt is practically a superman. Perrin's abilities while cool, are not the god-like advantages that both Mat and Rand ended up with. Still Perrin is doing VERY well for himself. He does a great deal more with less. That is a sign of superior character in this (pardon the expression) character. As a person he is far better and stronger than his old buddies from Emond's Field.
Of course he has huge advantages over someone like Galad or Gawyn, who had to build their power bases from nothing. Yeah they grew up in a palace etc. but they were always going to play second banana to Elayne. They grew up knowing they'd never have real power or position, so they built it without any mystical advantages. There is character in that. I'd say the same for Masema if he weren't such a raving nut-bar. :)
Did I mention I like the name Zarine, even if she is as spoiled as Nyneave?
-
Well we have so far only seen Mat's interactions with the Finn, I could argue that prehaps Rand's visit DID leave something behind but were talking about Mat. I'm not sure what the Snakes got out of Mat's visit if it was copied memories, getting a kick out of watching a human sweat, but I am sure it was something.
At any rate it was the Foxfinn's that fulfill requests and are perhaps the ones that take memories from men as an option for price. As Mat is the only one to go into the Rhuidean door and since it's destruction no one else will be going in it we don't have anyone else to compare it with. So we don't know if men and women who get things from the Fox's come out with holes in their memories or not. It seems that the Fox's can set any price if you don't ask since Mat was apparently wise enough to ask for for a way out to begin with.
I mean if Mat clearly remembers both sides of the same battle then then he can't have ONLY memories of past lives or even just ancestors. The Foxfinn's had to have gotten those memories from somewhere. Perhaps in a time when the humans did remember the bargain with the Finn's they offered up memories they didn't need or want to remember any more.
-
Well, in KoD, Matt gives an explanation about where he thinks the memories came from, which makes a lot of sense. But this probably isn't something we need to discuss further in Joe's thread. We'll most likely find out in the next book anyway.
-
But I still maintain that they couldn't be limited to or even mostly composed of people who used the terangreal because that would require men who channeled in battle to be part of the mess.
Huh? Where'd you get that from? The ter'angreal does not require any ability to channel, only that you be adventurous enough to go through a mysterious door to the unknown to get three questions answered. The ability to channel is irrelevant.
Also It's not necessary that the people are from different ages. An age is an awfully long time.
No one's arguing that. All of Mat's memories are from the Third Age. He quite explicitly states at one point that they cover approximately the span of time from just before the Trolloc Wars through Artur Hawkwing's rise.
Besides they same spirit could have been one person on one trip round the wheel and another one on the next. So being in the same battle more than once is not completely impossible either. :D
I really don't think the Wheel repeats ages with that degree of precision. Whether a particular battle occurs again at all is very much open to question, and the details of how it resolves and who's in it, not to mention the names and appearances of the people and sides involved, will vary considerably. If the Wheel repeated everything to that level of detail, the Dark One would have no need to ask what's happening because he's gone through it all before countless times.
No there's no doubt that the people going into the terangreal are leaving something behind. But I'm just saying that wherever they got the memories, it wasn't primarily from those visitors. If the finns could simply copy memories it wouldn't cause amnesia in the victims. If it is a process where the memories are extracted and leave amnesia behind, then they would have lost and gained nothing from mat, so no bargain.
What makes you think it causes amnesia? I do not recall any evidence anywhere that encounters with either variety of Finn generally cause memory loss.
The memories had to come from someplace else.
Why? I'm fairly sure Robert Jordan is on record somewhere saying that's exactly where they came from, and Mat gives a very similar and quite sensible explanation himself in Knife of Dreams. The source of Mat's memories is not really debatable without completely ignoring some rather strong evidence.
-
Douglas your responses indicate that you didn't pay attention to what I was responding to.
But I still maintain that they couldn't be limited to or even mostly composed of people who used the terangreal because that would require men who channeled in battle to be part of the mess.
Huh? Where'd you get that from? The ter'angreal does not require any ability to channel, only that you be adventurous enough to go through a mysterious door to the unknown to get three questions answered. The ability to channel is irrelevant.
The door terangreal does require channeling to operate, but the likelihood that it would have been constructed by Aes Sedai, then restricted to only non-channelers is so slight as to be a ridiculous assumption.
Also It's not necessary that the people are from different ages. An age is an awfully long time.
No one's arguing that. All of Mat's memories are from the Third Age. He quite explicitly states at one point that they cover approximately the span of time from just before the Trolloc Wars through Artur Hawkwing's rise.
Renoard - I don't think so. I agree with melbatoast on this one. I seem to remember Matt having memories from multiple people in the same age. Melbatoast mentioned Matt having memories
Again I was responding to a direct statement that having multiple memories from the same age would somehow preclude them being Mat's reincarnations. Such an assumption doesn't follow.
Besides they same spirit could have been one person on one trip round the wheel and another one on the next. So being in the same battle more than once is not completely impossible either. :D
I really don't think the Wheel repeats ages with that degree of precision. Whether a particular battle occurs again at all is very much open to question, and the details of how it resolves and who's in it, not to mention the names and appearances of the people and sides involved, will vary considerably. If the Wheel repeated everything to that level of detail, the Dark One would have no need to ask what's happening because he's gone through it all before countless times.
Broad strokes or fine, if it is time turning and not just historical paradigms repeating then you are stuck with certain major events repeating closely enogh that the major players are the same. If it is simply that archetypes and paradigms are repeated then you lose the "wheel" and get something linear but cycling.
No there's no doubt that the people going into the terangreal are leaving something behind. But I'm just saying that wherever they got the memories, it wasn't primarily from those visitors. If the finns could simply copy memories it wouldn't cause amnesia in the victims. If it is a process where the memories are extracted and leave amnesia behind, then they would have lost and gained nothing from mat, so no bargain.
What makes you think it causes amnesia? I do not recall any evidence anywhere that encounters with either variety of Finn generally cause memory loss.
Yep not my premise, was exploring someone else's assertion that assumed the amnesia. I think is was shard's statement. If it causes amnesia then it implies that the finn lost the memories that they gave Mat so they are at a net loss. If they can copy them then there would be no amnesia. You really have to pay attention to what someone else said that I might be responding to. ;P
The memories had to come from someplace else.
Why? I'm fairly sure Robert Jordan is on record somewhere saying that's exactly where they came from, and Mat gives a very similar and quite sensible explanation himself in Knife of Dreams. The source of Mat's memories is not really debatable without completely ignoring some rather strong evidence.
And yes, given that they are so selectively non-channy there are huge reasons, already cited that they would have to not be the users of the terangreal. Another big one is the fact that many of the memory tracks include the death of the donor. Kind of hard to use the terangreal AFTER dying. ;P Now it's possible it's a plot hole that the author overlooked, but it's more likely that a lot of mistaken assumptions have made it into FAQs. :D
-
I never said anything about Amensia Renoard, the Foxes gave Mat three things: The Ashrendi Spear, the Foxhead Medallion and the memories to fill the blanks in his head. What they seemed to take was his life, which Rand was successful in getting back.
Now when Jordan himself says these memories came from people who came into contact with the Foxes and not from past lives OR descendants how can you refute that? Now the link to the FAQ on this statement has been posted twice already once by me and another poster so I'm not going to re-post it.
The Finn's are never really fully explained on how they work and why, most of it seems on theory. Their own world is Escher creation so they may be able to retroactively collect memories for all we know. It's been heavily implied that the Foxes have skinned humans at some point showing their studded pants straps to Mat. I feel like the game of Snakes and Foxes how you lose unless you cheat comes into play here.
They look for ways to trick you out of what you want.
-
There may be some posts on the last page I missed, and I should probably go back and read those. Still, I think I can respond to your newest post.
The door terangreal does require channeling to operate, but the likelihood that it would have been constructed by Aes Sedai, then restricted to only non-channelers is so slight as to be a ridiculous assumption.
True, such a restriction seems quite silly as it would ban themselves from using it. Men who channel, however, would have been hunted down, gentled, and kept under close watch and guard on general principle. All of the memories are from the Third Age where Saidin is tainted, after all - this is explicitly confirmed by Mat's own mental recollection at one point. So, men who channel would have been rare and kept away from the ter'angreal as a coincidental side effect of other policies regarding them. Women who can channel do not appear in Mat's memories for the same reason that women in general don't. Presumably, the Finns decided for some unknown reason to not cross gender boundaries with their memory filling.
Broad strokes or fine, if it is time turning and not just historical paradigms repeating then you are stuck with certain major events repeating closely enogh that the major players are the same. If it is simply that archetypes and paradigms are repeated then you lose the "wheel" and get something linear but cycling.
Select major events, yes, and that would certainly include some battles. Names and physical appearance, though, close enough that Mat would not realize they were different, is a bit to much imo.
And yes, given that they are so selectively non-channy there are huge reasons, already cited that they would have to not be the users of the terangreal. Another big one is the fact that many of the memory tracks include the death of the donor. Kind of hard to use the terangreal AFTER dying. ;P Now it's possible it's a plot hole that the author overlooked, but it's more likely that a lot of mistaken assumptions have made it into FAQs. :D
No, it's a plot hole that doesn't exist. There are multiple perfectly reasonable explanations and direct explicit authorial confirmation.
Given the restriction of Third Age males, probably due entirely to the Finns choosing to use the most recent available memories of the correct gender, the lack of channelers using the ter'angreal is no surprise at all. For memories including dying, Mat believes the Finns established some sort of link with him and every other person to ever visit them that allows them to access their memories at any point after the link is made. They also are known to have some ability to see the future - some of the answers they have given prove that - and might be able to browse a person's future memories when he's there. Mat's theory seems more likely to me, though, as I'd expect the Finn's future sight to be less detailed than that.
-
Wow, this has certainly strayed from a summary of a first time reader, hasn't it. Please allow me to land a blow on the memory stealing as a price. Mat remembers dying. A lot. He mentions it several times, actually. If they are able to record memories of those who entered, even after they left, then that makes sense, but I highly doubt they actually lose the memories. Matt could be Aemon, or an important general from Manetheren. We may never know exactly. The concept of the soul is extremely complex in this series, even to the point where it has a genetic component to it.
-
Joe there is no intention to hijack the thread. We are just killing time till you have an update, and your updates stir questions. But the real debates are being shifted to the yellow tape thread. If the discussion bothers you then I apologize for bringing it up.
-
The Finns don't necessarily value the memories. I think it's Moiraine that tells Mat that they "feed" off of human sensations and emotions. Mat tells the Finns to fill the holes in his memory,among other things, and they respond "Done". That is where his memories are from.
-
No that was never in question. The debate is over where they got the memories from and why they chose the selection they did. Why they thought these would be the right ones' to put in Mat. But this need to move to the Yellow tape thread so Joe can keep telling us his reactions to what he's read.
-
You like my cleverly named thread eh? its like hulu an evil plot to take over randland...
-
It's a good thread to talk safely about the book details unlike that MEAN thread called spoilers which ruined HoA for me. :'(
-
I find the Finns extraordinarily creepy. I don't really know why. *shrug*
-
Shags, I think it's because they're creepy.
-
Well…then…their…um, creepiness…uh…creeps me out…? :P
-
Hey guys. I'm 308 pages into Crown of Swords. Unfortunately this book is moving a bit slow and not a whole lot is happening. But I did promise to do more updates so here is one!
-Elayne, Nyneave, Aveindha, Birgitte, The Ebou Dar Aes Sedai, and the Kin used the bowl terengal to fix the weather. I liked this scene but I didn't understand where the bowl channeled saidin from. Is it already in the bowl or was one of them really a man?? (the whole Halima thing has me second guessing everyone LOL) Anyways, they are soon attacked by the Seanchan who must have felt such a huge amount of channeling from so far away. After getting everyone through a gate made by Elayne, she starts to unravel the weave thread by thread. This was something that Merillile yelled at Aviendha NEVER to do again because of how dangerous it is. Unless you let the weave dissapate, then it could fall into any weave it wants to and might explode. This is exactly what happens after a great battle scene when the Seanchan are coming through the gate and it collapses on itself and blows everything to bits within a couple hundred yards. Luckily the gals are alright but the group of Seanchan that were trying to kill them were wiped out. I thought the whole thing about carefully unwinding a weave to avoid a channeler reading the residue of the weave was interesting. Aviendha did it so they would not be followed because she thought she was being watched. She was, by Moridin. He's decided to stop them from using the Bowl of the Winds at any cost. Too late lol.
-Perrin, Faile, and his soldiers and Aes Sedai have met up with Queen Morgase, Lini, Tallanvor, and her soldiers. Though Morgase's identity remains a secret from them. I'm glad Morgase has met up with them because her story throughout the last 2 books has seemed too irrelevant. You only got snippets here and there and there didn't seem to be much of a relation to the BIG story. It doesn't even seem like she wants her throne back. She does not seem to be actively pursuing it at the moment, she even agreed to be Faile's servant!! I'm very curious to see where this storyline is going to go.
-Graendal is introduced to Cyndane by Moghedian. Unfortunately, it has already been spoiled for me that Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated. Oh well, I'm stoked to see Lanfear back in action. Apparently she is under Moridin's control now and they instruct Graendal to return to Shayol Ghul and to be under Moridin's control too. When she finds this rediculous, Shadar Hairen appears and pretty much puts her in her place. I really like the scenes with the Forsaken and I wish there was more of them. The interaction with eachother is fascinating and they always seem to be on the edge of killing one another.
-Last I left off, Rand was trying to get Sammael's old soldiers to swear fealty to him, the new King of Illian. He is noticing that some of his Asha'man are acting weirder and weirder which brings up the cleansing of saidin in his thoughts. I remember him thinking about this earlier in the series and I can't imagine how much that would change things. I don't know how he'd do it without killing the Dark One....who put the taint there. Maybe it has something to do with the Eye of the World which is a pool of pure saidin. I hope this is developed more.
Well like I said, this one moves along slowly but I am not giving up. I am still truly enjoying this story and I hope you guys still enjoy these posts. I should have another one on Thursday.
-
Definitely don't give up, JoeC!!! There's lots of excitement to come!!!
8)
-
CoS has it's lulls, but press on through. It sets the stage for a real pickup in action. See no spoilers and real encouragement.
-
You guys mean Path of Daggers right? Cause Illian was conquered in CoS.
This was the book that people feel the action starts to slow down but I think it's still a good book and book 9 has something really cool to look forward to as well.
-
Nope. CoS.
I love the title 'The Path of Daggers,' and the cover art, too. [Random comment]
-
Ummm What?
You guys mean Path of Daggers right? Cause Illian was conquered in CoS.
-
I think he just thinks CoS wasn't boring.
[tied w/GBM]
-
The whole unweaving the Gateway happened in Path of Daggers chapter "Threads".
-
Ok I was referring to JoeC's post where he said "308 pages into Crown of Swords" when he's already posted on the 14th of having completed CoS.
-
gotcha. I was reacting to his synopsis and reactions rather than paying attention to the book title. Even though I cited it.
-
A couple thoughts for Joe:
The Bowl of the Winds can draw on saidin by itself. Some ter'angreal can do that. (Just so you aren't waiting for a random channeler to pop out.)
Morgase has abdicated the throne, which is irrevocable. This happens right before the Seanchan attack the Whitecloaks and she's thinking about jumping out the window. It's not a huge scene, so it's easy to miss. She's having a difficult time readjusting to life now.
I agree, the scenes with the Forsaken are great. And the action picks up a little later so hang in there. Thanks for the update!
-
A couple thoughts for Joe:
The Bowl of the Winds can draw on saidin by itself. Some ter'angreal can do that. (Just so you aren't waiting for a random channeler to pop out.)
Morgase has abdicated the throne, which is irrevocable. This happens right before the Seanchan attack the Whitecloaks and she's thinking about jumping out the window. It's not a huge scene, so it's easy to miss. She's having a difficult time readjusting to life now.
I agree, the scenes with the Forsaken are great. And the action picks up a little later so hang in there. Thanks for the update!
I do remember the scene with Morgase. She kinda mutters that to herself before getting ready to jump out.
Also, I forgot to put in a little nugget of information I picked up. When Cadsuane is talking to Allana, an ornament in her hair goes cool when Alanna channels (I don't know why she did channel in that scene BTW) I think Cadsuane has a terengal just like Mat's foxhead medallion. I like her, and I imagine being the oldest Aes Sedai alive she must have a few tricks up her sleeve.
-
Point blank she's a bitch like Nyneave she tells everyone what to do including Nyneave and they obey not to mention she likes to embarrass people...
-
Well I haven't seen her and Nyneave interact just yet but now I am definitely looking forward to it!!
-
She makes for an interesting character, though.
-
Point blank she's a bitch like Nyneave she tells everyone what to do including Nyneave and they obey not to mention she likes to embarrass people...
I think that's a bit harsh there, Caddy just doesn't want Rand to act like an isolent little child is all. :D Nynaeve was a way worse bully then Caddy, she asks for respect with gentle words compared to the switch and constant hair tugging of Nynaeve.
-
And the torment she puts Rand through.....her bloody rules ect.
she is supposed to teach him to cry and laugh why does she think its manners? And when did a King need manners?
-
Isn't a caddy a person who carries someone else's clubs on a golf course?? :P
-
No Cadsuane is incredibly arrogant, so much so that I've wondered if she weren't a Black Sister. It would account for her being so old when the rod tends to shorten life span.
Where Rand is concerned, Cadsuane is just Elaida without the red shawl. Really toxic personality. But then she is from Far Madding.
-
I liked Path of Daggers a lot, I think Rand's climactic scene is awesome.
-
I was just giving her a nick name like Eggy for Egwene.
Cadsuane just wants to keep Rand from becoming Evil she is not evil herself.
-
Cadsuane is quite interesting. She only knows how to do things via the "I am Aes Sedai and that should be enough for you" attitude towards people. She is also the most successful AS in history when it comes to finding male channelers (even though she is Green Ajah), but also in maxing out their survival rates after gentling. Great catch on the Ter'angreal, Joe. Do you also like how she arranges her sewing box so she can see behind her? Everyone is so shocked when she knows they are there without turning around. Such a simple but effective trick.
-
Why do people hate Cadsuane so much? I swear, people who don't like don't even begin to imagine just how hard a job she has set for herself, just how important it is, and why she is doing it. Despite her flaws, I am deeply impressed by her and her abilities. She's arrogant, but she's got something to be arrogant about.
I was about to include more, but realized it was getting spoilerish. Let's just say that she has impressed me deeply and think she is on the right track in general.
-
Why do people hate Cadsuane so much? I swear, people who don't like don't even begin to imagine just how hard a job she has set for herself, just how important it is, and why she is doing it. Despite her flaws, I am deeply impressed by her and her abilities. She's arrogant, but she's got something to be arrogant about.
I was about to include more, but realized it was getting spoilerish. Let's just say that she has impressed me deeply and think she is on the right track in general.
I agree. She is one of the few Aes Sedai that I can stand. Aes Sedai, in general, are extremely annoying. There are exceptions but most are so blinded by their arrogance they dont understand what the hell they should be doing.
-
Cadsuane is alot better then most Aes Sedai, I think she has earned a little arrogance if she's actually managed to help men in the past instead of just leaving them to die like most AS do.
-
All good points, and i respect them. However, to treat the savior of humanity in the fashion of which she does goes beyond a small measure of arrogance into a massive superioty complex that I find extremely annoying. In addition the "It's my way or the highway" attitude i find gennerally unattractive... :-\
-
I think that's her point, things are tending to go to Rand's head. It is true he is the savior but he has to remember humility and I think he is fast forgetting that with his "I have to be Iron!" attitude. Without saying more I just want to point how that Cadsuane is not the only one trying to make Rand remember how to be human. Cadsuane is just more up front about it.
-
Whether Rigney intended to characterize her as evil or not, and I think there is foreshadowing to support that he at least toyed with the idea, he managed to portray a fundamentally abusive and evil person. Something Rand who 1) grew up without a mother, 2)has been seriously tortured by women with power, literally and 3) isn't even given a choice in his romantic life -- really doesn't need. Allowing Cadsuane's kind of abuse in would tend to unbalance him further.
-
Whether Rigney intended to characterize her as evil or not, and I think there is foreshadowing to support that he at least toyed with the idea, he managed to portray a fundamentally abusive and evil person. Something Rand who 1) grew up without a mother, 2)has been seriously tortured by women with power, literally and 3) isn't even given a choice in his romantic life -- really doesn't need. Allowing Cadsuane's kind of abuse in would tend to unbalance him further.
I really think you're identifying with Rand too much here, Renoard. It's only from his perspective that he's being abused. That's kind of part of the problem she's trying to fix.
-
Cadsuane is quite interesting. She only knows how to do things via the "I am Aes Sedai and that should be enough for you" attitude towards people.
That's not how she acts, she treats people as they are. The rest of the Aes Sedai are obsessed with tradition, status, strength in the power, etc but she will listen to a good idea even if it comes from the lowest sister. She doesn't tolerate the conniving political BS that all the Aes Sedai are obsessed with, she's blunt and doesn't dance around the truth like other Aes Sedai.
-
Mmmm nope. I Identify with perrin. There is some identification with Rand when you are reading him, but no I'm talking about the arrogance of sitting and demanding that the leader of several nations come to tea with you before you'll even answer questions. That she'd extort and use demeaning language etctera.
In general she is a controlling mean spirited and definitely evil person who is adding to the problem, because she knows better than everyone else. This is the repeated paradigm with people who Rand deals with. All think he needs to be their toy or lapdog or better yet, where's that male a'dam. In fact, the reality that Rand is willing to attach himself to a person who is strutting about so far above her station is one of the reasons I finally gave up on him as a character.
The narrative and her own rational suggest she thinks it's for his own good. But objectively, it's not and no governmental official in that posistion is anything more than a puppet. Certainly not an Epic hero.
-
I disagree, Cadsuane doesn't want to be shouted at like she's some dog, which is what he was doing when she first arrived. She wants him to act with civility what's wrong with that?
-
Rand attached himself to Cadsuane for one reason and reason only, Tarman Gai'don. He knows that she is only there to win come Tarman Gai'don. That's all Rand wants, for Tarman Gai'don to come and for him to win and send the DO packing. He uses anyone or anything that would help him achieve that end. He views Cadsuane as one of those and thus plays by her rules, enough, to keep her around.
-
Actually, he attached himself to Cadsuane because of a viewing Min had that Cadsuane will teach him and the other Ash'aman a lesson they must learn. Some have theorized that it is the flaw of Callandor, but I think it is something more. She is the epitome of Aes Sedai arrogance. She is an extreme traditionalist, but has allowed rules to be broken (many she breaks herself) in order to get what she wants. She keeps everone off balance to maintain control. It is an effective tactic, but that doesn't mean she is not a B!tch. What she is doing is no different than the way Moiraine acted before she wised up. Even insane Lews Therin has more knowledge and wisdom than any current Aes Sedai (he was almost 600 years old at the breaking, if I remember correctly). The Aes Sedai were fragmented long before the official tower split, and the actions of Moiraine, Verin, Cadsuane (not to mention the rampant infestation of Black sisters), shows how uncohesive they really are. They have certainly forgotten that Aes Sedai means "Servant of All", not "Master of all".
-
Actually, he attached himself to Cadsuane because of a viewing Min had that Cadsuane will teach him and the other Ash'aman a lesson they must learn
Really the same thing I said in my previous post you just added the specifics.
The Aes Sedai, the female ones, have been a thorne in the side of the fight against the DO for quite some time now. When Lews Therin came up with the plan to seal the DO away Latra Posae, the strongest female Aes Sedai at the time, convinced all the other female Aes Sedai not to help him. That is why all of the 100 companions were male. Will they ever get it?
-
Cadsuane was never shouted at like a dog she came and went into Rands residence with out permission and ignored all his authority and generally has no respect for anyone other than herself. She listens to those who she believes will have viable solutions, not caring about their strength because she doesn't recognize stupid traditions. She does whatever she wants for the end goal not out of kindness. She is bright and successful but she is a bitch...
-
Exactly, that doesn't mean I don't like her as a character, though. She was given a fascinating personality.
Yukomo, what do you mean that's not how she acts? Does she ever explain to anyone the reasons for her counsel? Does she share her ideas and goals with other Aes Sedai (or even Rand) as equals do? Most certainly not. If you want her help, you must do it her way, and you must trust her.
I partially agree about the Latra Posae thing. She is no more to blame than Lews Therin. All Aes Sedai knew that the greatest achievements the One Power created were the result of both halves being used. Lews Therin chose to act without the female Aes Sedai, and the results were catastrophic. I am not excusing the lack of action, I am saying that both sides were equally at fault.
-
Hey guys. Sorry I didn't do the update but a close friend of mine was killed in a car accident. It's been rough and I miss her but I'm trying to do things to keep her off my mind. So I figured I give an update since I did finish Path of Daggers.
Okay, I'm gonna say that unfortunately I did not enjoy this book as much as I did the others. There were definitely good parts but overall I think too many things were drawn out. I'm still not giving up though!
-Perrin met Masema and gave him his order to report back to Rand. Masema says he'd rather travel the long way than to go through a gateway made with the Power. I am really anticipating this guy being put in his place by Rand. He has certainly caused a lot of trouble. Faile and Morgase are captured by the Shaido Aiel. Again, the whole Shaido storyline is frustrating but now I'm actually worried for Faile. I like her.
-Egwene, however, has put both Romanda and Lelaine in THEIR places. She has gotten the Hall to declare war on Elaida and at the end of the book they are going through a gateway to Tar Valon. I'm very curious about how they are going to do this. Afterall, Artur Hawking had the White Tower sieged for years and eventually lost. Though, I don't believe he had any channelers on his side.
-Elayne claimed the Lion Throne finally. Though apparently it won't be easy for her because others have laid claim to it. Then she rips down all the Dragon banners!! Man, women are cold sometimes. lol
-Elaida's embassy to the Black Tower was ambushed by Asha'man. They were led by Toveine who she herself was captured by Logain. I don't recall Logain joining the Black Tower but I think it's a great addition. Now, Toveine wasn't making it easy on him, so he kissed her. Now, I may be wrong but I think he gave her an orgasm. Is that what happened?? If so, that was very nice of him.
-Liandran is damane now. Serves her right.
-Rand's battle with the Seanchan was not as much fun to read as I hoped it would be. I actually wound up with a splitting headache from all the talk of his seeing double everytime he used saidin. All the back and forth character points of view didn't seem very necessary. I will admit that I almost jumped out of my seat when he revealed he had Callandor. It's too bad that he killed a lot of Seanchan AND his own army. Cadsuane reveals later that Callandor is flawed and actually magnifies the taint. She says he needs to link with two sisters to use it, with one sister controlling the flows. I personally think he should find a way to cleanse saidin. That would solve problems!
Back in Carhien, Rand is attacked by Dashiva and other Asha'man who have betrayed him for some reason. Have they gone mad?? I guess I kinda saw this coming, because the prophecies said that there will be dreadlords at Tarmon Gai'don and I imagine that this is where they come from. Too bad Rand couldn't kill Dashiva. That could be a big problem.
Sorry if this update is kind of crappy, but my heart just isn't in it today. I didn't want to make you guys wait any longer though. I did order Winter's Heart and it should arrive in a couple of days. Take Care!
-Joe
-
Joe - Sorry to hear about your friend. I really don't know what to say about that. It's a really hard thing to deal with.
On a WoT note, thanks for the update. It was fun to read even if your heart wasn't in it. And ya, it was kind of obvious you weren't quite your normal self when you wrote that.
I agree that Path of Daggers wasn't as good as the previous books. I don't mean to say that I didn't like it. I did. But I LOVED some of the previous books. Fires of Heaven is AWESOME! And most people REALLY enjoy reading from Matt's point of view, and there isn't any Matt in Path of Daggers at all! No wonder it's not as exciting! ;)
Masema is crazy. I also hope to see Rand lay into that crazed loon one of these days. I won't comment on Faile, because I can't think anything to say that wouldn't potentially lead to a slight spoiler.
I'm currently at the beginning of The Dragon Reborn on my own re-read of the series. I love the foreshadowing that Jordan drops about different characters. Every time someone teases Egwene about rising as far as the Amyrlin Seat is great! She is an awesome Amyrlin. Artur Hawkwing wouldn't have had any channelers when he laid seige to Tar Valon. It will be very interesting to see how that goes.
Ya, you'd think Elayne would just walk in and take the Lion Throne. She's the Daughter Heir and her boyfriend is the freaking Dragon Reborn, who already controls Andor. I kind of see her point, but I also think she's a little stubborn. She wants to jump through every tiny hoop to prove to everyone that she is the Ruler of Andor because she deserves it and not because Rand handed it to her on a silver platter. Kind of makes sense, but a little frustrating she has to go through all the politics anyway.
I don't recall when Logain joined the Black Tower, but yeah, he's there. When he kissed Toveine he did something to her with the Power. You'll probably find out exactly what shortly after starting the next book. Elaida is such an incompetent person. Everything she does ends up blowing up in her face. Sending those sisters to the Black Tower ends up introducing some very interesting twists in the relationship between Ashaman and Aes Sedai.
It's been a long time since I read Path of Daggers. I can't remember much of Rand using Callandor in a battle with the Seanchan. Cleansing Saidin is an interesting idea. That would be pure crazy talk though.
Dashiva and the other Asha'man haven't gone mad. They're just finally showing their true colors. Looks like there are some darkfriends mixed in with the Asha'man. Now they have to keep an eye out for "Black Asha'man" as well as ones going mad.
So yeah. Path of Daggers isn't as great as some of the other WoT books, but I think it still carries the plot forward and sets up more exciting things for later books.
Good luck Joe!
-
All I can say is stick it through, man. It'll be worth it in the end.
And I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Requiescat in pace.
-
Hey guys. Sorry I didn't do the update but a close friend of mine was killed in a car accident. It's been rough and I miss her but I'm trying to do things to keep her off my mind. So I figured I give an update since I did finish Path of Daggers.
I'm very sorry to hear about your friend JoeC, I lost a friend to a car accident as well. I hope Wheel of Time helps you to cope. :)
Okay, I'm gonna say that unfortunately I did not enjoy this book as much as I did the others. There were definitely good parts but overall I think too many things were drawn out. I'm still not giving up though!
Yes and now imagined you just waited two years for that book you just read. Two LONG years of not knowing what happened to Mat and now you STILL don't know and have to wait another TWO years to know. Now how pissed off are you? That's why I think PoD recieved such a backlash from the fandom. With hindsight and re-reads I did grow to enjoy this book more though it isn't my favorite either. The next book is much better I think, and you get Mat back so Yay-tie!
-Perrin met Masema and gave him his order to report back to Rand. Masema says he'd rather travel the long way than to go through a gateway made with the Power. I am really anticipating this guy being put in his place by Rand. He has certainly caused a lot of trouble. Faile and Morgase are captured by the Shaido Aiel. Again, the whole Shaido storyline is frustrating but now I'm actually worried for Faile. I like her.
This is going to be a l-o-n-g one and that's all I will say.
-Egwene, however, has put both Romanda and Lelaine in THEIR places. She has gotten the Hall to declare war on Elaida and at the end of the book they are going through a gateway to Tar Valon. I'm very curious about how they are going to do this. Afterall, Artur Hawking had the White Tower sieged for years and eventually lost. Though, I don't believe he had any channelers on his side.
I really enjoyed this aspect on the re-read, just be glad they know to use gateways.
-Elayne claimed the Lion Throne finally. Though apparently it won't be easy for her because others have laid claim to it. Then she rips down all the Dragon banners!! Man, women are cold sometimes. lol
I too wish there was a "warmer" way to do it but she needs to prove herself otherwise people will second guess her and wonder when her "Dragon" is going to come back. This way they know it's the Lion Queen in charge, not the Dragon Reborn.
-Elaida's embassy to the Black Tower was ambushed by Asha'man. They were led by Toveine who she herself was captured by Logain. I don't recall Logain joining the Black Tower but I think it's a great addition. Now, Toveine wasn't making it easy on him, so he kissed her. Now, I may be wrong but I think he gave her an orgasm. Is that what happened?? If so, that was very nice of him.
Yes something HAS happened to change the dynamic with Aes Sedai and Ashaman. Your going to love the next book. Just remember, the BEST things happen when Saidin and Saidar work in union. *wicked grin*
More important though to remember that it seems Logain doesn't like Taim...
-Liandran is damane now. Serves her right.
Just love when baddies get what they got coming.
-Rand's battle with the Seanchan was not as much fun to read as I hoped it would be. I actually wound up with a splitting headache from all the talk of his seeing double everytime he used saidin. All the back and forth character points of view didn't seem very necessary. I will admit that I almost jumped out of my seat when he revealed he had Callandor. It's too bad that he killed a lot of Seanchan AND his own army. Cadsuane reveals later that Callandor is flawed and actually magnifies the taint. She says he needs to link with two sisters to use it, with one sister controlling the flows. I personally think he should find a way to cleanse saidin. That would solve problems!
Back in Carhien, Rand is attacked by Dashiva and other Asha'man who have betrayed him for some reason. Have they gone mad?? I guess I kinda saw this coming, because the prophecies said that there will be dreadlords at Tarmon Gai'don and I imagine that this is where they come from. Too bad Rand couldn't kill Dashiva. That could be a big problem.
I think you should look to the M'heal maybe.
I thought the part with Rand destroying the Seachan was rather disturbing but nice to know that he DID have loyal Asha'man to him at least.
Sorry if this update is kind of crappy, but my heart just isn't in it today. I didn't want to make you guys wait any longer though. I did order Winter's Heart and it should arrive in a couple of days. Take Care!
-Joe
We understand, take care of yourself and I think you will enjoy Winter's Heart more then Path of Daggers. :)
-
I wouldn't wish the punishment of being put under the control of an a'dam/sul'dam on anyone, though.
[I think that's actually a total lie. :P]
-
Sorry to hear about your friend, Joe. Hope you find a way to get through it.
-
My sympathies on your friend, Joe. I'm sure RJ would be happy to know that you are finding refuge in his writing during your time of grief.
I don't think Liandrin is Damane, just a da'covale for Suroth. I find it even more fitting that someone this evil to be reduced to a servant, and one who must wear see-through clothing as well. She would be useless as a Damane anyway, that Shield may never be unraveled.
I am glad you like Faile, so many people find her annoying, but I think she's great.
Logain's kiss - pay very close attention to the way Toveine acts afterwards. Does her behaviour seem strange to you? What does it remind you of?
Not only does Elayne have to prove herself to be independant of Rand, but since most Andorans blame Morgase for the damage Rahvin caused, she now has to prove she will not follow in her mother's footsteps. "Lord Gaebril" did some very bad things in Morgase's name.
The Callandor information Cadsuane gives out is what some believe to be the lesson she needs to teach Rand and the Asha'man, per Min's viewing. I don't think it's that simple, personnally. One thing I have always wondered is how she knows Callandor is flawed.
Dashiva, et al - don't tell me you are that surprised that some of the Asha'man are bad guys.
-
I partially agree about the Latra Posae thing. She is no more to blame than Lews Therin. All Aes Sedai knew that the greatest achievements the One Power created were the result of both halves being used. Lews Therin chose to act without the female Aes Sedai, and the results were catastrophic. I am not excusing the lack of action, I am saying that both sides were equally at fault.
?? The reason LT did end the AoL, was becouse Saidin was tainted and drove him mad. He did work with Aes Sedai all the way until the end. He did use the tainted Saidin, THAT ended ages of legends. Not the lack of using combined Saidar/Saidin.
-
Casco, Darxbane is refering to the Strike at Shoyul Ghol that was supposed to use both the Male and Female halves of the power together to seal the DO in. The leader of the Female AS decided that none of them would go and help LTT and the 100 companions.
-
Exactly Shard. Now, it can be argued that both Saidar and Saidin could have been tainted, but it is much more likely that using only half of the power allowed the DO to slip in the taint.
-
I appreciate the support you guys. It was very nice of you to say those things. It's hard for me but the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills...... so some say.
Anyways, I got my copy of Winter's Heart today and I'll be starting it tomorrow. Expect updates soon!!
-
Hope your enjoying WH JoeC. :)
-
I'm sorry you lost a friend. I'm not big on platitudes so I'll just leave it at that.
I particularly enjoyed Winter's Heart. Ironically I was in the Border's in Plano, Texas. Had lost track of WoT and had stopped reading for entertainment, because I was in a very ugly environment surrounded by people I literally feel were dark-friends in the real-world sense. Then I pop into Border's on a whim and am trying to find a copy of the JPS Tanakh and Voila! There was winter's heart. I was so tickled, I took it home and read it in two days.
I guess you could say I found winter's heart in the Heart of Winter, while I was dodging freezing rain. I know cheesy. But it sure cheered me up.
-
Exactly, that doesn't mean I don't like her as a character, though. She was given a fascinating personality.
Yukomo, what do you mean that's not how she acts? Does she ever explain to anyone the reasons for her counsel? Does she share her ideas and goals with other Aes Sedai (or even Rand) as equals do? Most certainly not. If you want her help, you must do it her way, and you must trust her.
She explains herself to Verin and Sorilea.
-
I find it curious that one of the forsaken was able to heal the taint damage in Lews Therin long enough to let him realize the thinks he'd done while crazy.
-
using the true power no less
-
He did admit that he wasn't the best healer either, but his pride wanted LTT to KNOW what he'd done. That seems to be the downfall of many a villain not just in WOT but other fantasy stories as well. Pride.
-
I think the True Power had more to do with Ishamael's ability to heal the Taint's madness than any skill at healing. Both the Taint and the True Power come from the Dark One, and it makes sense to me that this would grant the True Power special strength when dealing with the Taint.
-
I doubt it it would probably make him even more suspetible to greater madness...well it worked but the side effects are unkown it may be why rand has LTT's voice in his head
-
Yeah typically speaking, the opposite is the cure for an illness. Serum antibodies cure an infection, Base kills acid before it burns, or vice versa. And Behaviorists pace you through repetitively doing the right thing to over come bad habits of thought or action.
But remember that all the forsaken view Modern Aes Sedai healing as badly performed first aid.
-
A good healer at the time when LTT was going mad could heal anything short of death. They tried to heal the madness but never succeeded. We are unsure if he healed the damage caused taint or gave him temporary sanity. My guess would be the later because of the fact that all the others were unable to heal the insanity.
-
A good assumption, but it is also possible that the DO's control over the taint is very strong. It can prevent the taint from affecting Its "Chosen" channelers, it is not that far a leap to believe that It can also remove the affects of the taint.
-
UPDATE!!! I finished Winter's Heart!!!
I'm sorry I didn't do any updates with this book but I have been very busy and also there never really seemed to be a good place to do an update with this book, because there weren't as many notable major events. However, I did like this very much and the ending was SPECTACULAR!! I'll save Rand cleansing saidin for last because that is the biggest deal.
-I was so glad to be reading about Mat again, as he has always been my favorite character. He has a limp now because of his injuries sustained during the Seanchan takeover. He is still Tylin's "piglet" (what's to complain about, Mat?!?!?) Tylin has sworn allegience to the Seanchan and they have allowed her to rule Ebou Dar UNDER the Crystal Throne of course. Finally, we have met the Daughter of the Nine Moons and her name is Tuon. First off, the Seanchan chain of command is very confusing, so when they talk of how someone below Tuon can criticize her because she's not REALLY below her per se, it kind of melts my brain. LOL Well anywho, while Tylin is away, Mat plans his escape and how he's going to get the Aes Sedai out of there without them being caught. Tylin comes back and catches him but she let's him go and has him tie her up underneath her bed so as to clear her of helping him. On the way out he is forced to kidnap Tuon, and apparently she isn't all that upset about this. I'm very curious to see where this goes because I don't see Mat marrying this girl unless he is forced to....which would still fullfill Min's prophecy anyways.
-Elayne claimed her throne, but unfortunately her parts of this book were kind of slow, as they dealt with all the nobles wanting her throne. The assassination attempt on her has led to a darkfriend Daved Hanlon becoming the head of her personal security. That was the only interesting part of her story for me.
-Perrin was in the book looking for Faile.....and then they never went back to him. What the heck?? I like Perrin and Faile and I wanted to see that story line get solved. It's so weird how it left off like that.
-Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all bonded with Rand. I'm surprised he actually let them do this, seeing as he is destined to die and anyone who has somebody bonded to them and they die, that person dies soon afterwards. But, he understood that it was their choice and they love him. Also, Rand finally made love to Elayne. In one of the funniest scenes in the WOT books Min, Aviendha, and Birgitte all feel and see what's going on through their warder bond. I thought this was great, because of how uptight some of these characters are. All this talk about going redfaced at the sight of cleavage or embarrased when anyone talkes about sex, and here they all mentally WATCH this happen despite their best efforts. Very creative Mr. Jordan....
-Rand goes to Far Madding to hunt down some of the Asha'man that tried to assasinate him. He kills one of them in a duel. Cadsuane, Nyneave, Lan, Verin, and other Aes Sedai and still loyal Asha'man are with Rand. He gets a note telling him where the remaining Asha'man are and asks him to leave. Suspecting a trap, him and Lan go to this inn and sneak inthrough the roof. There the encounter Padan Fain (who wrote the letter) and Toram. This battle was so awesome to read and I love the image of Lan and Rand battling side by side. What a great scene. Also, I never realized Fain was so skilled a fighter. He gives Rand a lot of trouble but eventually escapes (how? I have no idea....because there were guards outside) Rand does kill the two remaining Asha'man and him and Lan escape the inn. They fall off the roof and are captured by Aes Sedai, but are eventually free'd by Cadsuane. I didn't know why this short imprisonment was even necessary, then I realize that those Aes Sedai will report back to Elaida that Cadsuane in working with Rand. I suppose that's significant. I'm starting to like Cadsuane very much and I find her the most trustworthy Aes Sedai besides Moiraine. I wish I could see them two meet!
-Okay, Rand decides to use the access keys to clease the male half of the source. The female key will be used by Nyneave, as she is the strongest in the Power, and she will link with Rand to do this. Cadsuane, Verin, and all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man they can muster all for different circles around the hilltop near Shadar Logoth because they realize that such a massive use of the One Power will attract channelers from all over the world......especially the Forsaken. And oh boy do they ever. First off, the descriptions of how saidar and saidin interweave and saidar seems to be actually squeezing the taint out of saidin literally into the air were amazing. The taint is spilling out and forming a huge ball that is blacker than black and is growing larger and larger. All this time I wondered how one could remove the taint and here it is, FINALLY. No more woozines or "molten filth" or any of that garbage. Saidin is CLEAN!! Can you imagine how much different it must be for any male channeler now. This really changes EVERYTHING. The White Tower no longer has any right to hunt down male channelers. There can be male Aes Sedai again and saidin and saidar can be used together again!! Just like in the Age of Legends, where they said that the greatest achievements were made with both halves of the Source being used together. WOW, I can hear the thump of all the Red sisters simultaneously fainting. lol I still see struggles ahead, because male channelers being insane is so ingrained into The White Tower's laws and practices it will be very difficult to change things. But oh boy, I am glad this moment is finally here!!
Whoops, got a little off track sorry. The battle: was AWESOME. ALL of the Forsaken came to stop what was happaning. I really like the how the Forsaken are written so I always get excited when the come around. But to have them all in one spot in a battle??? Beautiful. A couple of notable absences though. I didn't see Greandal or Moridin. They never mentioned Mesaana, but at one point a woman is spotted running through the woods changing colors...which is consistent with how Mesaana looks (the saa??) Demandred comes but spends his time running from the fireballs being shot at him. The Aes Sedai and Asha'man are working together so that, if any male or female channels near them (which they know will be the Forsaken coming) they immediately shoot fireballs in that direction. Moghedian, despite her fear of Moridin, actually sits this one out. I'm a little surprised she didn't take this chance to get her revenge on Nyneave. Aran'gar is spotted by an Asha'man who is shocked to find her using saidin. Her secret's out. Dashiva, the renegade Asha'man, shows up only to be immediately annihilated. Finally, the best part of the whole battle is when Cadsuane squares off with Lanfear/Cyndane. I nearly had to read this part standing up. Two VERY powerful female characters who are MAJOR players in this story. Cyndane's shock at how her "nasty" weaves disappear when she uses them on Cadsuane (because of her teren'gal) and Cadsuane being stunned every time one of her weaves are "sliced" by Cyndane. Lanfear is the only character that I remember knowing how to "slice" someone elses weave. Man, she is so strong in the Power, I always enjoy any scene of her battling. Or even just using the Power at all. Unfortunately, the ending battle scatters the stories so we never get any definitive ending for the individual duels. Cadsuane does think to herself later on...something to the effect of her not being satisfied with "one dead renegade and a few singed Forsaken. So I take it none of them were killed. That's fine. All the more for Rand to kill, especially now that he doesn't have to worry about Callandor magnifying the taint.
Okay my fingers hurt. lol. I do have my order in for Crossroads of Twilight. Yes, I've been warned about this book, but I am keeping an open mind still. I think the cleansing of saidin is the biggest event in the WOT stories so far and it has really invigorated my enthusiasm for these books. I'm so excited to see where they go from here. Tarmon Gai'don can't be THAT far away anymore lol. I'm almost caught up guys. Again, sorry for the long wait. I put a lot into this update because you guys have been very faithful readers and very helpful with your comments too. I can't wait to start reading the next book! I'll keep you guys updated....of couse!! lol
-Joe
-
UPDATE!!! I finished Winter's Heart!!!
I'm sorry I didn't do any updates with this book but I have been very busy and also there never really seemed to be a good place to do an update with this book, because there weren't as many notable major events. However, I did like this very much and the ending was SPECTACULAR!! I'll save Rand cleansing saidin for last because that is the biggest deal.
This is one of my favorite of the later books, the cleansing of Saidin REALLY makes this one of the best. Your right in saying this is a game changer and the Forsaken really didn't want this to happen. So it was nice just to see the Rand and Co hand out some major pownage here.
-I was so glad to be reading about Mat again, as he has always been my favorite character. He has a limp now because of his injuries sustained during the Seanchan takeover. He is still Tylin's "piglet" (what's to complain about, Mat?!?!?) Tylin has sworn allegience to the Seanchan and they have allowed her to rule Ebou Dar UNDER the Crystal Throne of course. Finally, we have met the Daughter of the Nine Moons and her name is Tuon. First off, the Seanchan chain of command is very confusing, so when they talk of how someone below Tuon can criticize her because she's not REALLY below her per se, it kind of melts my brain. LOL Well anywho, while Tylin is away, Mat plans his escape and how he's going to get the Aes Sedai out of there without them being caught. Tylin comes back and catches him but she let's him go and has him tie her up underneath her bed so as to clear her of helping him. On the way out he is forced to kidnap Tuon, and apparently she isn't all that upset about this. I'm very curious to see where this goes because I don't see Mat marrying this girl unless he is forced to....which would still fullfill Min's prophecy anyways.
It takes time for some to fall in love. What did you think about the whole relationship of Mat/Tylin? There are those that feel Tylin raped Mat.
-Elayne claimed her throne, but unfortunately her parts of this book were kind of slow, as they dealt with all the nobles wanting her throne. The assassination attempt on her has led to a darkfriend Daved Hanlon becoming the head of her personal security. That was the only interesting part of her story for me.
This is one of the story lines that takes awhile to finish up, I just wish Elyane had been a bit smarter about Daved in this book. She thinks Dylin is the one responsible at first but it never occurs to her that maybe Daved set this up so he could be a Hero.
-Perrin was in the book looking for Faile.....and then they never went back to him. What the heck?? I like Perrin and Faile and I wanted to see that story line get solved. It's so weird how it left off like that.
Here's the other storyline that drags on for awhile, Jordan really has alot of storylines running at the same time so some take a bit of a back seat.
-Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all bonded with Rand. I'm surprised he actually let them do this, seeing as he is destined to die and anyone who has somebody bonded to them and they die, that person dies soon afterwards. But, he understood that it was their choice and they love him. Also, Rand finally made love to Elayne. In one of the funniest scenes in the WOT books Min, Aviendha, and Birgitte all feel and see what's going on through their warder bond. I thought this was great, because of how uptight some of these characters are. All this talk about going redfaced at the sight of cleavage or embarrased when anyone talkes about sex, and here they all mentally WATCH this happen despite their best efforts. Very creative Mr. Jordan....
There's a scene with Rand and Lan where they ask each other why they let this happen and it was a really funny scene where they say something only the two of them get and the women are all "What's so funny?" *hehe*
I think Min is the only one in danger if/when Rand dies since she is the only non-channler. The Aes Sedai when they lose a Warder are depressed for a time but eventually recover and can even bond again.
-Rand goes to Far Madding to hunt down some of the Asha'man that tried to assasinate him. He kills one of them in a duel. Cadsuane, Nyneave, Lan, Verin, and other Aes Sedai and still loyal Asha'man are with Rand. He gets a note telling him where the remaining Asha'man are and asks him to leave. Suspecting a trap, him and Lan go to this inn and sneak inthrough the roof. There the encounter Padan Fain (who wrote the letter) and Toram. This battle was so awesome to read and I love the image of Lan and Rand battling side by side. What a great scene. Also, I never realized Fain was so skilled a fighter. He gives Rand a lot of trouble but eventually escapes (how? I have no idea....because there were guards outside) Rand does kill the two remaining Asha'man and him and Lan escape the inn. They fall off the roof and are captured by Aes Sedai, but are eventually free'd by Cadsuane. I didn't know why this short imprisonment was even necessary, then I realize that those Aes Sedai will report back to Elaida that Cadsuane in working with Rand. I suppose that's significant. I'm starting to like Cadsuane very much and I find her the most trustworthy Aes Sedai besides Moiraine. I wish I could see them two meet!
Actually Fain killed the last two Asha'man, I'm surprised you didn't note the ghost forms of the last two.
-Okay, Rand decides to use the access keys to clease the male half of the source. The female key will be used by Nyneave, as she is the strongest in the Power, and she will link with Rand to do this. Cadsuane, Verin, and all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man they can muster all for different circles around the hilltop near Shadar Logoth because they realize that such a massive use of the One Power will attract channelers from all over the world......especially the Forsaken. And oh boy do they ever. First off, the descriptions of how saidar and saidin interweave and saidar seems to be actually squeezing the taint out of saidin literally into the air were amazing. The taint is spilling out and forming a huge ball that is blacker than black and is growing larger and larger. All this time I wondered how one could remove the taint and here it is, FINALLY. No more woozines or "molten filth" or any of that garbage. Saidin is CLEAN!! Can you imagine how much different it must be for any male channeler now. This really changes EVERYTHING. The White Tower no longer has any right to hunt down male channelers. There can be male Aes Sedai again and saidin and saidar can be used together again!! Just like in the Age of Legends, where they said that the greatest achievements were made with both halves of the Source being used together. WOW, I can hear the thump of all the Red sisters simultaneously fainting. lol I still see struggles ahead, because male channelers being insane is so ingrained into The White Tower's laws and practices it will be very difficult to change things. But oh boy, I am glad this moment is finally here!!
All of this makes this book worth the wait and a great read. Very satisfying victory over the shadow, though unfortunatly with this victory there are consequences. *evil grin*
Whoops, got a little off track sorry. The battle: was AWESOME. ALL of the Forsaken came to stop what was happaning. I really like the how the Forsaken are written so I always get excited when the come around. But to have them all in one spot in a battle??? Beautiful. A couple of notable absences though. I didn't see Greandal or Moridin. They never mentioned Mesaana, but at one point a woman is spotted running through the woods changing colors...which is consistent with how Mesaana looks (the saa??) Demandred comes but spends his time running from the fireballs being shot at him. The Aes Sedai and Asha'man are working together so that, if any male or female channels near them (which they know will be the Forsaken coming) they immediately shoot fireballs in that direction. Moghedian, despite her fear of Moridin, actually sits this one out. I'm a little surprised she didn't take this chance to get her revenge on Nyneave. Aran'gar is spotted by an Asha'man who is shocked to find her using saidin. Her secret's out. Dashiva, the renegade Asha'man, shows up only to be immediately annihilated. Finally, the best part of the whole battle is when Cadsuane squares off with Lanfear/Cyndane. I nearly had to read this part standing up. Two VERY powerful female characters who are MAJOR players in this story. Cyndane's shock at how her "nasty" weaves disappear when she uses them on Cadsuane (because of her teren'gal) and Cadsuane being stunned every time one of her weaves are "sliced" by Cyndane. Lanfear is the only character that I remember knowing how to "slice" someone elses weave. Man, she is so strong in the Power, I always enjoy any scene of her battling. Or even just using the Power at all. Unfortunately, the ending battle scatters the stories so we never get any definitive ending for the individual duels. Cadsuane does think to herself later on...something to the effect of her not being satisfied with "one dead renegade and a few singed Forsaken. So I take it none of them were killed. That's fine. All the more for Rand to kill, especially now that he doesn't have to worry about Callandor magnifying the taint.
The woman running through the forest was Grendal, she faced off with Verin and her circle. Grendal is the one that wears color changing clothes.
I'm surprised you didn't say anything about the death of Osan'gar/Dashiva...
I guess Messana and Semirage had better things to attend to...
Okay my fingers hurt. lol. I do have my order in for Crossroads of Twilight. Yes, I've been warned about this book, but I am keeping an open mind still. I think the cleansing of saidin is the biggest event in the WOT stories so far and it has really invigorated my enthusiasm for these books. I'm so excited to see where they go from here. Tarmon Gai'don can't be THAT far away anymore lol. I'm almost caught up guys. Again, sorry for the long wait. I put a lot into this update because you guys have been very faithful readers and very helpful with your comments too. I can't wait to start reading the next book! I'll keep you guys updated....of couse!! lol
-Joe
That's good to keep an open mind about it, this one really got alot of backlash I think when you remove the "2 year waiting period" it is easier to enjoy and get into. Soon after that will be Knife of Dreams and then you'll be in the same boat as the rest of us.
*muwhahahahahahahha*
-
No I think Crossroads was great, I just hated the repeat of the unresolution in certain circles.
Winter's Heart is a great book, and as I said before it couldn't have come at a better time for me. I agree entirely with you Joe about the quality of the battle scenes. I was in my late 30's and I was bouncing like a teenager when the baddies started attacking in Aridhol. But I was just as tickled when Thick Headed Mat kept repeating "Your my wife!" to a girl who looks like she's only 14.
As for the escape from Tylin. My sympathies were with Mat.
As to the order of precedence in Seanchan Society, it's not SO confusing. The King's chambermaid is naturally higher in rank than a free-born field officer. But Tuon HAS complicated things by going "under the veil". Ah the arrogance of the mighty. They must have their conceits. :)
Her "maid" being a privy counselor with a specific role of keeping her grounded privately has it's historical precedents.
I think the funniest part was the irony of watching the birds for "scientific" omens while making fun of real things like the forsaken and trollocs. :)
-
yea it was a great ending to that book. one small note though. it was alivia, not cadsuane, who squared off against cyndane. i believe alivia is supposed to be the strongest female channeler on the Dragon's side.
-
-Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all bonded with Rand. I'm surprised he actually let them do this, seeing as he is destined to die and anyone who has somebody bonded to them and they die, that person dies soon afterwards. But, he understood that it was their choice and they love him. Also, Rand finally made love to Elayne. In one of the funniest scenes in the WOT books Min, Aviendha, and Birgitte all feel and see what's going on through their warder bond. I thought this was great, because of how uptight some of these characters are. All this talk about going redfaced at the sight of cleavage or embarrased when anyone talkes about sex, and here they all mentally WATCH this happen despite their best efforts. Very creative Mr. Jordan....
Yes, great scene. And then all three of them go off to get drunk together to distract themselves. :D
-Okay, Rand decides to use the access keys to clease the male half of the source. The female key will be used by Nyneave, as she is the strongest in the Power, and she will link with Rand to do this. Cadsuane, Verin, and all the Aes Sedai and Asha'man they can muster all for different circles around the hilltop near Shadar Logoth because they realize that such a massive use of the One Power will attract channelers from all over the world......especially the Forsaken. And oh boy do they ever. First off, the descriptions of how saidar and saidin interweave and saidar seems to be actually squeezing the taint out of saidin literally into the air were amazing. The taint is spilling out and forming a huge ball that is blacker than black and is growing larger and larger. All this time I wondered how one could remove the taint and here it is, FINALLY. No more woozines or "molten filth" or any of that garbage. Saidin is CLEAN!! Can you imagine how much different it must be for any male channeler now. This really changes EVERYTHING. The White Tower no longer has any right to hunt down male channelers. There can be male Aes Sedai again and saidin and saidar can be used together again!! Just like in the Age of Legends, where they said that the greatest achievements were made with both halves of the Source being used together. WOW, I can hear the thump of all the Red sisters simultaneously fainting. lol I still see struggles ahead, because male channelers being insane is so ingrained into The White Tower's laws and practices it will be very difficult to change things. But oh boy, I am glad this moment is finally here!!
This is, I believe, the most important single event in the entire series all the way through Knife of Dreams - and most of the world doesn't have a clue what's happened. Channelers everywhere certainly felt that something was going on, but no one but the people who were actually there and the Asha'man know what. The various reactions and speculation in CoT are amusing to watch. The real news is rather slow to spread.
Whoops, got a little off track sorry. The battle: was AWESOME. ALL of the Forsaken came to stop what was happaning. I really like the how the Forsaken are written so I always get excited when the come around. But to have them all in one spot in a battle??? Beautiful. A couple of notable absences though. I didn't see Greandal or Moridin. They never mentioned Mesaana, but at one point a woman is spotted running through the woods changing colors...which is consistent with how Mesaana looks (the saa??)
That was actually Graendal. Moridin was indeed a no-show, and I don't think Mesaana or Semirhage showed up either. Everyone who came and was not part of Rand's group was a Forsaken, btw.
Demandred comes but spends his time running from the fireballs being shot at him. The Aes Sedai and Asha'man are working together so that, if any male or female channels near them (which they know will be the Forsaken coming) they immediately shoot fireballs in that direction. Moghedian, despite her fear of Moridin, actually sits this one out. I'm a little surprised she didn't take this chance to get her revenge on Nyneave. Aran'gar is spotted by an Asha'man who is shocked to find her using saidin. Her secret's out. Dashiva, the renegade Asha'man, shows up only to be immediately annihilated.
Dashiva was, in fact, Osan'gar's cover identity. This makes the point of view scene for the (apparently Black) Aes Sedai leading the circle that kills him particularly amusing, as she has no idea she's killing one of the Forsaken.
Finally, the best part of the whole battle is when Cadsuane squares off with Lanfear/Cyndane. I nearly had to read this part standing up. Two VERY powerful female characters who are MAJOR players in this story. Cyndane's shock at how her "nasty" weaves disappear when she uses them on Cadsuane (because of her teren'gal) and Cadsuane being stunned every time one of her weaves are "sliced" by Cyndane. Lanfear is the only character that I remember knowing how to "slice" someone elses weave. Man, she is so strong in the Power, I always enjoy any scene of her battling. Or even just using the Power at all.
That was Alivia, not Cadsuane. Alivia is borrowing an angreal and several ter'angreal from Nynaeve, and is the only one of the defenders going completely solo. Cadsuane is in the center right next to Rand and Nynaeve, directly shielding the two of them, and is using her channeling-detecting ter'angreal to direct the fire of the circle that's useing Callandor. That ter'angreal is the only reason Demandred had to dodge fireballs, as he Reversed his gateways which would normally make them undetectable - but the ter'angreal can sense them anyway.
Unfortunately, the ending battle scatters the stories so we never get any definitive ending for the individual duels. Cadsuane does think to herself later on...something to the effect of her not being satisfied with "one dead renegade and a few singed Forsaken. So I take it none of them were killed. That's fine. All the more for Rand to kill, especially now that he doesn't have to worry about Callandor magnifying the taint.
Dashiva/Osan'gar was killed. Several other Forsaken were hurt and driven off. Aran'gar's secret about being a male channeler in a female body is now known to some of the good guys. Mashadar is gone. Saidin is clean. All this for the low, low cost of one dead loyal Asha'man, one dead Aes Sedai, and the loss of the female Choedan Kal (note Cadsuane's observation that the female access key is broken at the end).
Okay my fingers hurt. lol. I do have my order in for Crossroads of Twilight. Yes, I've been warned about this book, but I am keeping an open mind still. I think the cleansing of saidin is the biggest event in the WOT stories so far and it has really invigorated my enthusiasm for these books. I'm so excited to see where they go from here. Tarmon Gai'don can't be THAT far away anymore lol. I'm almost caught up guys. Again, sorry for the long wait. I put a lot into this update because you guys have been very faithful readers and very helpful with your comments too. I can't wait to start reading the next book! I'll keep you guys updated....of couse!! lol
-Joe
CoT is a bit slow, and suffers from having to bring just about every single other plotline in the series up to date with Rand - Winter's Heart was able to concentrate on Rand's thread of the plot so much only by neglecting a lot of other stuff. Knife of Dreams is great, though, and all three parts of AMoL are promising to be spectacular.
-
^ Close. I think there's a novice with the rebel Aes Sedai who is stronger. I think her name's Sharina.
-
Elayne, Min, and Aviendha all bonded with Rand. I'm surprised he actually let them do this, seeing as he is destined to die and anyone who has somebody bonded to them and they die, that person dies soon afterwards
Minor correction here. That only happens to the "Warder" in the bond. The "Aes Sedai" of the bond just feels an overwhelming sense of grief, but doesn't go bezerker crazy and die trying to avenge anyone. Essentially he just agrees to allow them to enhance their grief when he dies.
-
Also, Rand wasn't captured by Aes Sedai in Far Madding. He was captured by the City guard because Nynaeve's channeling through the "well" was still picked up by the big Ter'Angreal they have there. Cadsuane frees him by showing the leaders there that the artificial stedding ter'angreal is not fulproof.
I guess you missed that Dashiva was actually Osangar, who used to be Aginor. If you go back and read the Dashiva sections again, you will be amazed by how many little clues RJ gives. I didn't catch on until the Cleansing scene, myself.
Alivia is the strongest channeler. She is even stronger than Nynaeve, and Lanfear/Cyndane comments that she is even stronger than Lanfear was before her "incident". The angreal she was wearing helped, but she is still uber strong. Sharina's strength is more related to her willpower. Even the Aes Sedai have to concentrate in order to stay above her.
There is one other consequence to the cleansing that will come up in KoD, so I won't mention it here, but for those who have read KoD, remember Tremalking?
The Seanchan hierarchy is strange, to say the least. Her "TruthSpeaker" is not her maid, however, and she does not go with Tuon and Mat. Mat learns he is to marry Tuon from the snakes. I don't think Min's viewing was that specific.
-
And since there have never been male channelers bonded as warders before this we don't know if they'll have the same reaction or not. Compulsion may have a slightly different effect with the power on both ends.
-
I'm in my reread and Mat was just hung by the fox people. I love Mats storyline. He did learn that he had to marry the daughter of the nine moons from the snake people when he entered the ter'angreal in Tear. However, from the context of which they talk, there answers are not set in stone like Min's are. They say that if he doesn't go to Rhudean he will die. That implies that he has a choice and there answers are open to change. More of what is most likely rather then what will be.
-
Their visions are set in stone. They are certain that he will die if he doesn't go to Rhuidean. They "see" all possible fates, and only told him the consequences because he asked what would happen if he didn't. Everything after that was a clear path.
-
It takes time for some to fall in love. What did you think about the whole relationship of Mat/Tylin? There are those that feel Tylin raped Mat.
I thought Mat and Tylin's relationship was very interesting. I honestly don't see what he's complaining about LOL. The idea of rape did not really even enter my mind. It's hard to make that case, besides the difficulty of explaining how a woman could rape a man. I mean, technically you could say Han Solo was a rapist (especially in today's uber sensitive world) because Leia told him many times to stop touching her and told him "no" and "stop that" while they were on the Millenium Falcon. We all know they turned out fine and were meant to be together. My point is that rape just doesn't have it's place in fiction unless it's meant to be there. Not EVERY relationship we read about can be 100% straight forward. It makes for a good read when things are complicated. I just think rape is way too serious a charge.
Actually Fain killed the last two Asha'man, I'm surprised you didn't note the ghost forms of the last two.
Well, I saw that Rand and Lan encountered their bodies and I knew Fain had killed them with the dagger, but Rand saw them come up the stairs, and it implied that he swiftly killed them with his sword. So I figured those two bodies must have been two other people. Maybe I should re-read that.
The woman running through the forest was Grendal, she faced off with Verin and her circle. Grendal is the one that wears color changing clothes.
Oooooooh I see. I remember. I'm surprised Greandel came out and fought!! Even if it was just from fear of Moridin's backlash against those who did not fight.
I'm surprised you didn't say anything about the death of Osan'gar/Dashiva...
LOL Know sumthin?? I had no idea that Dashiva was Osan'gar!! Not until I read your post. I can't believe I never picked that up. I consider myself a pretty careful reader, so I'm surprised that I miss these things. Glad he's dead though!
That's good to keep an open mind about it, this one really got alot of backlash I think when you remove the "2 year waiting period" it is easier to enjoy and get into. Soon after that will be Knife of Dreams and then you'll be in the same boat as the rest of us.
*muwhahahahahahahha*
Well, make room and save an oar!!
Also, sorry I got the whole Cadsuane/Alivia thing mixed up. It's confusing when Jordan describes characters we know but doesn't use their names. That's why I got it mixed up. I'm a little dissappointed though. I really would like to see Cadsuane square of with a Forsaken.
-
Rape is about being coerced. Of course it was rape for Tylin to use soldiers, bondage and the color of authority to rape Mat. There's a quote from a leading feminist in the 60's to the effect that women won't truly be free until they are held accountable for rape, murder, etc. on a regular basis. While that concept of freedom is debatable it does get at the issue that women are perfectly capable of intentional, unjustified violence.
Arguments for rape:
They were not married
She used coercion, authority, and the credible threat of violence
She prevented him from leaving, detained/imprisoned him
As for any tenderness he might have felt, check out Stockholm Syndrome. What Tylin does is no better morally than the use of an A'dam.
-
*dances a jig* yes you are right... though i find that section disturbingly humorous (but then again it wasn't me) cutting off his clothes and jumping him freaked me out though
-
uhh, I actually thought rape was being forced into sexual intercourse, and by that I mean directly forced. Since Mat never actually refused Tylin, it can't be called rape. He may not have liked every aspect of the relationship, and she was certainly taking advantage of him, but the moment he stood up to her and said he had to leave, she released him. This is another example of culture clash. I will agree that she takes advantage of him, but he also takes advantage of her, to a degree. He gets to live like a prince, for the most part, which he believes is fair trade, despite how much he complains. To call it rape minimizes the word, in my opinion. As for your arguments:
1. Not being married is not even close to a reason it could be called rape, since being married does not mean you must have sex with your partner, nor does not being married mean you can't consent to sex. That argument is ridiculus, frankly.
She did abuse her authority and used veiled threats, but only to keep him around. The sex part was never an issue for him.
As said above, we see that she lets him go the moment he directly asks her to release him. Since the A'dam completely enslaves the victim, I can't agree that what Tylin does is as morally reprehensible.
-
Rape is being forced into sexual intercourse, by any means including coercion, threats, abuse of the color of authority, or extortion. The same conditions but leading only to nudity or sexual contact other than intercourse or sodomy is sexual assault. The same conditions leading to sodomy of the victim is criminal sodomy. Trust me on this one, or pick up a penal code from any of the United States, or the armed forces thereof. ;P As a writer Rigney's primary audience was those in the US, though I'm certain he appreciated every reader from any country. So the legal context of his audience becomes relevant to the message of his writing.
As for the marriage question, of course I'm coming from a biblical perspective, so yeah for Christians it is a sin for either party to deny your spouse sex, except when there is a mutual agreement for a limited time. The book of Ephesians is quite clear on this. Granted this is a case of projecting Christian values into a speculative world, but I only mentioned it to quash any potential weaseling along those lines to argue Tylin didn't rape him. In other words the same does NOT hold true for dating couples. And Rigney liked to call himself "high church" Episcopal, so it is marginally relevant what Christian Dogma contains. :P
As I read it, the sex part became an issue for him, as soon as he became her "piglet" and she began to steal his clothes etc. And what Tylin did used the threat of exposure to the Seanchan as well as other means to totally enslave him. So yeah, the comparison stands. I'd go further and suggest that Rigney intended a parallel to balance the a'dam.
Having female slaves and no male slavery to equate that violence to, would have alerted the PC cops. So I think he intentionally introduced these tidbits of male slavery to placate the voice of censorship.
-
I seem to recall Tylin marching him to the bed at knife point and cutting his clothes off the first time, immediately after he explicitly refused her, so I think rape is the correct term for it. Mat just did a good job of accepting the inevitable and making the best of it. Still, comparing it to the a'dam is going rather too far.
-
Not sure I would call it rape. Mat is really 100% ok with the end result, sexual intercourse, but he just doesn't like the way they arrive at said result.
Also, if you want to get technical no male can ever be "raped". The very definition of rape, in the legal system, is unlawful carnal knowledge of a FEMALE. Any sexual acts a male is forced to commit are labeled sexual assault.
-
Sorry madness, you aren't correct. That might be doctrine applied in a lot of courts, but it is not the way the statutes are written or should be written. A male can certainly be raped. You are just wrong.
California Penal Code 261 269
261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
circumstances: . . .
-
Men can be raped, even if your going by the defination of penetration.
-
Sorry madness, you aren't correct. That might be doctrine applied in a lot of courts, but it is not the way the statutes are written or should be written. A male can certainly be raped. You are just wrong.
California Penal Code 261 269
261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
circumstances: . . .
Actually I am not wrong. I believe that a male can certainly be "raped". But according to some statutes a male can technically not be raped. Whatever your personal view may be on the subject there are definately some statutes written that way.
Wikipedia
There is no national rape law in the United States. Each state has its own laws concerning sexual aggression. Nor is there any national standard in the US for defining and reporting male-male or female-perpetrated rapes. More than half the states use traditional sex-specific rape law, limited to male perpetration against females.
Also see Georgia Penal Code 16-6-1
(a) A person commits the offense of rape when he has carnal knowledge of:
(1) A female forcibly and against her will; or
(2) A female who is less than ten years of age.
Carnal knowledge in rape occurs when there is any penetration of the female sex organ by the male sex organ. The fact that the person allegedly raped is the wife of the defendant shall not be a defense to a charge of rape.
-
If in those states where it doesn't count as "rape" it still counts as "sexual assault" then I'm not sure the difference amounts to much.
-
How did this get from WOT to rape?
-
It's still WoT we're just assessing Tylin's character in light of the primary audience.
It is fascinating how many variations on the theme of pack mentality and rule by the biggest bully WoT has. These are in sharp contrast to the fascinatingly egalitarian world of Two Rivers BP (before Lord Perrin).
And yes I'm fascinated with the word fascinating today, as I can't seem to force myself to write. UGh it's a learned skill. Just DO it. grrrrr...
-
I just love how many themes and ideas that can be discussed from WoT. I decided to bring up this question of Tylin because she's been discussed on other boards and quite passionatly on both sides of the "Rape/ Not Rape" issue. It helps pass the time until JoeC's next update.
-
Gotcha. I think she raped him ;D
-
You are with the majority :P
-
I am going to have to re-read this section to be certain, but I always felt like the whole affair was a game they were both playing (cat and mouse, for lack of a better analogy). Judging by the way Mat's personality is written, if he was truly upset by the situation, he wouldn't have complained so much. He considered Tylin attractive, and liked what he got out of the deal. It was also a good lesson in learning what it felt like to be objectified sexually, which Mat tends to do to women.
RJ didn't need the Tylin and Mat interaction to balance the A'dam. With the exception of the Whitecloaks, there is not a single culture where men dominate; it is either equal, or in most cases matriarchal (Far Madding, Aes Sedai/Warder bond, Atha'n Miere, Etc). In this world, Adam ate the apple, so to speak. Besides, while a life of enslavement is unacceptable, it hardly compares to what a male channeler faces. Being born with an ability you can't suppress that will make you go insane, and as if that wasn't bad enough, no matter how afraid you are of the consequences, the Power is so seductive that the loss of it is just as fatal, if less destructive to others.
-
We should have a poll (about the rape vs. not-rape thing).
-
Just because of this thread I went back reread all the Mat-Tuon chapters in KoD. It was kind of fun reading them as a sort of separate novel.
I do wish that Musenge had left a squad of Imperial Gardeners with Mat. Warning anyone responding will be close to giving JoeC a Spoiler so be careful.
Heh I still love all the Seandaran Japanese with their TarTar blond hair and blue eyes. Too bad the Deathwatch don't wear TarTar tartans. :)
-
TarTar? As in Tartar sauce? ???
-
I'm confused as well.
-
Heh. They're indo-europeans (caucasians) from Khasakstan and the Gobi Desert who created the mongol army as a slave force much like the Seanchan created the army of Altarans and Domoni.
:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O48-Tartars.html
-
I'm on the fence about how the Seanchan sound. It is described as slow and slurring,which makes me think of an Asian accent, but is also described as a drawl, which makes me think of Louisiana Creole. Has there ever been any phonetic spellings or pronunciations given out? Maybe Brandon can find out.
-
There are phoenetics in the glossaries, and there are phoenetics on a couple of web sites. But that won't help a lot with distinguishing between accents.
But we know they are predominantly taller than the people of the continent. They have some blonds at least. There names have a Japanesy feel as well as some Arabic, and Keltic pieces: Musenge, Furryk, Tuon, Leilwyn
And then there is their name: Seanchan which we have it on good authority is pronounced Shawn-chawn Sean is Keltic and based on Shahr meaning county. And Chawn is an homage to East Asia. . .
Heh. Who has all those influences? Kossacks and TarTars! ROFL
:)
Yeah I'm sure he borrowed on North Carolina and especially the Algonquin and Tsalagi (Cherokee) culture a good bit. But hey, have you ever noticed how the shape pf the continent matches the outline of the Arctic Ocean? Mat mentions to Tuon that the old mountains are ones that already existed at the bottom of the sea. . .
Ah well It's all speculation, but it's fun.
-
That's why some call the Seachan those crazy Asian Texans, most of RJ's cultures seem to be mixtures of other cultures as well. Aiel for another being pale with red and blonde's and in a tribal society. I guess they haven't been in the Waste long enough for their DNA to change and make them darker. *shrug*
-
If it was rape, why didn't Mat try to leave that city during Winter's Heart? Perhaps he couldn't have left during A Path of Daggers, because of his word, but it says in the books that he liked Tylin. I don't think someone would like their rapist.
-
Most women date their rapist.
Again, check out Stockholm syndrome.
As for not leaving earlier, for all his protests to the contrary, Mat is a slave to responsibility. The main reason he claims to avoid commitment, work and battle is the fact he can't shake the feeling of responsibility. Until they found Valan Luca, Mat had no way to escape that would not have left people he felt responsible for in danger in Ebu Dar.
-
Stockholm usually happens in kidnappings. Mat was not kidnapped.
-
I never thought Mat was raped. I always look at it like he was just out of his element because he was used to being the aggressor with women, and Tyelin reversed the roles a bit.
-
Tyelin reversed the roles a bit.
LOL that's a tinyy bit of an understatement.…
(I agree with what you were saying though.)
-
He was violated in mind and body... those who think otherwise just under-estimate women
-
There isn't one scene where Mat tells Tylin no(that I have found). He makes excuses in one scene but then is distracted by her kissing to the point where he does not even notice his pants are undone. Beyond that Mat has faced down six armed attackers in an ally and had enough skill to not kill the one woman attacking him during that fight. But your telling me he can't find away to get away from ONE woman with a dagger? Highly unlikely. He didn't like the role reversal but he was in no way raped.
-
I especially liked that he had a smoke after, and Tyelin teased him for pouting.
-
*calls "Joe you out there?"
No response.
"Joe? JoeC!"
The echo comes faintly drifting and attenuating as if down an endless stone corridor. "C!. . . C. . . c. . . c--"
I think the book worm ate him. :(
-
One woman with an entire personal guard and the power of a queen, and a dagger just to add to the humiliation.
-
That's twice now I've spelled Tylin wrong. <<Shakes head in disgust>> What kind of WOT fan do I think I am?
-
One woman with an entire personal guard and the power of a queen, and a dagger just to add to the humiliation.
We're still talking about Mat freaking Cauthon here!!!! If he doesn't want to be in that situation he gets out of it! End.Of.Story.
-
Date rape is still rape.
-
The scene where Nynaeve scolds him for taking advantage of Tylin, and in a rush to defend himself tells her more than he intends, and she walks away laughing at him...priceless.
-
I've only read it about 8 times, but I've never really felt like he was raped. More like his biggest complaint was the following
She's a Noble
She's chasing him not the other way around
She sort of takes on an "own him" approach. Once he is with her, none of the serving girls in taverns will have anything to do with him.
It' comes down to Mat loves to complain and he likes his roles to be standard every time.
-
Agreed. Spot on.
-
Naw that doesn't hold water. Everyone of his women has been a strong woman. Let's see. A Maiden of the Spear, A business woman and an Empress of the Freaking World come to mind. . .
Non standard role in every case. Tylin is a different case.
-
I'm not saying he's not attracted to strong women, he just likes to be in control.
-
I never thought Mat was raped. He is pursued by a VERY aggressive and powerful woman, but I never had the impression she made him do anything he didn't want to.
I thought the scenes where Tylin is domineering Mat were actually quite funny. At this point in the story Mat has grown quite a bit and has a very strong personality. It was fun to see the tables turned on him a little bit.
Now if a similar scenario were to play out in real life, I think it's almost guaranteed the aggressor would be committing rape at some level. But, we are talking about a fantasy story in a fantasy world. Mat is a super-character and he could take control of the situation if he really wanted to.
We're still talking about Mat freaking Cauthon here!!!! If he doesn't want to be in that situation he gets out of it! End.Of.Story.
Amen to Madness
-
*calls "Joe you out there?"
No response.
"Joe? JoeC!"
The echo comes faintly drifting and attenuating as if down an endless stone corridor. "C!. . . C. . . c. . . c--"
I think the book worm ate him. :(
Maybe CoT did another fan in :(
-
There isn't one scene where Mat tells Tylin no(that I have found). He makes excuses in one scene but then is distracted by her kissing to the point where he does not even notice his pants are undone. Beyond that Mat has faced down six armed attackers in an ally and had enough skill to not kill the one woman attacking him during that fight. But your telling me he can't find away to get away from ONE woman with a dagger? Highly unlikely. He didn't like the role reversal but he was in no way raped.
Crown of Swords chapter 29, first scene. He doesn't actually tell her no, but he tries to physically take the room keys from her after she locks the door, almost certainly intending to either leave or physically force her out after unlocking it, and says "I don't have bloody time for-" before getting cut off. Afterwards he mentally considers ways to prevent it from happening again and is not happy about the fact that they're not likely to work.
-
I understand this is a fantasy world etc., but even so, when I read things I always relate it to how I would react, so that's why I saw it as rape. She was manipulative and creepy (in my mind) and if a guy did that to me I would feel violated.
I was glad when that story line ended because Tylin creeped me out and made the Mat parts a little less fun for me because it didn't feel like a healthy or fun relationship to me.
Opinions of things like this vary a lot in our world too, so it makes sense we don't all agree.
-
...didn't feel like a healthy or fun relationship to me.
It was most definitely neither :-)
-
What the hell are you talking about HE NEVER gets out of a position he wants out of he was like that for the 1st two or three books he says he doesn't play hero but it is exactly what he does he stays not for Tylin but because he feels obligated to do so... he is taavern he knows he can't escape it and is now trying his damnedest to get through Tarmon Gaidon with as little losses as possible so he does things he finds unpleasant such as leading a rag tag army that happens to be a match for 3 times their number in regular soldiers
-
Wow. I can see how some people might get the impression that Mat was being forced to do stuff against his will with Tylin, but I never thought people would feel that strongly about it.
Now I'm getting more curious. I'm tempted to make a poll to see how the masses (lurkers) feel about it, but I'm reluctant to start a thread just about Mat and Tylin's relationship. :-[
-
The concept of rape is a sensitive topic so views on it can be pretty agressive
-
Maybe CoT did another fan in :(
LOL Nope! Almost though! This book was very slow and frustrating to read. I'm almost done though and I should have an update on Monday or Tuesday. Sorry for the lack of updates. I've been very busy.
-
Glad to know your still sticking with it, it's not a horrible book but not the best of the series at all. I know some will say it's the worst, but that can be debated I think. Just know that Knife of Dreams is much better and worth it.
-
Maybe CoT did another fan in :(
LOL Nope! Almost though! This book was very slow and frustrating to read. I'm almost done though and I should have an update on Monday or Tuesday. Sorry for the lack of updates. I've been very busy.
Hang in there Joe, almost a big payoff coming. I always felt like 10 was really 9.5 :-)
-
The main thing I remember from CoT is that it seemed like half the book was just various groups of channelers staring off into the distance with dropped jaws and saying something to the effect of "Holy **** that's a lot of power!"
-
The main thing I remember from CoT is that it seemed like half the book was just various groups of channelers staring off into the distance with dropped jaws and saying something to the effect of "Holy **** that's a lot of power!"
And that will probably be the whole of Joe C's recap :-)
-
The main thing I remember from CoT is that it seemed like half the book was just various groups of channelers staring off into the distance with dropped jaws and saying something to the effect of "Holy **** that's a lot of power!"
And that will probably be the whole of Joe C's recap :-)
That is one of the bigger things that happened but there are some others, like Alvarin being choosen as Shadar Haran's favorite Pet.
-
I think a little more than that happened.
-
I think a little more than that happened.
Yeah just a little.
-
Now if a similar scenario were to play out in real life, I think it's almost guaranteed the aggressor would be committing rape at some level.
What, WOT is not real life????
Just a little dig for fans who begin questions like, "If so and so can do (whatever), then why don't they..." This is a world created by a brilliant-but-finite human being and is sometimes inconsistent for that reason. I giggle when fantasy geeks like me lose touch with reality just a bit. No offense meant to anyone.
That said, I believe that there is a double standard for behavior such as that described for the Tylin character and I believe that, while not exactly fair, it is warranted in the real world because of basic human anatomy and sexuality. Let's face it, were roles reversed, it would definitely be at least bordering on rape if not actual rape-by-coercion. Aggressive seduction is simply more acceptable when female-instigated for obvious reasons, even when regret is voiced after the fact. I don't believe Mat was raped, but I squirmed a bit (while laughing) at the role reversal.
Oh and, Joe, I did warn you about CoT, but I commend you for getting through it. I was really concerned with RJ's sanity/health after reading this book, long before he was diagnosed with the disease that ended his life, I think. Once, I wrote a guide for a friend suggesting which chapters (almost everything set in Salidar and Caemlyn) to skip in order to at least follow the story line and try to enjoy the book. New Spring and KoD were such a relief to me, being fully invested in this never-ending story... at least it seemed that way at the time.
This might be a good time for Joe to read New Spring!
-
He should also get the BWB Encyclopedia as well if you haven't done so already Joe.
-
Just hang on Joec, the next book is one of the best in the series, but it would not be if COT didnt build up the story for KOD. For me KOD was an endless "climax" ;D I enjoyed every page like crazy. The weakest storyline was Rand though, but i have a feeling we will get alot about him in next book.
-
Okay Update!! Finished Crossroads of Twilight! Sorry the update is late but I have been VERY busy.
Okay, I'm sorry to admit that I didn't enjoy this one as much as the others. It was very slow and it really seemed like NOTHING happened. Some of the other books went on too long, but they had some major events in there and all had spectacular endings. This one just ends unfortunately. Don't worry I haven't given up. I do have Knife of Dreams and I am currently 180 pages into it. Now THIS is a good book. But this update will be for CoT.
-First off, the section of the book dealing with Elayne and her politics was the hardest part to get through. It just went on for so long and nothing happened. I'm getting frustrated with her storyline. Why does it have to go on for so long. I understand she can't just jump right on the throne, but a lot of it is just needless. It doesn't really expand the story for me, it just bogs things down.
-Mat and his gang catch up with Luca and his traveling show. Boy this guy just shows up everywhere lol. He still has Tuon but she keeps calling him Toy and acts as if she's allowing this all to go on. Despite her attitude, and the negative attitudes of her servants, Mat keeps trying to win her affections. He brings her flowers, a necklace, and tries playing stones with her. This is kind of odd actually. I mean, the ONLY reason he's doing this is because of Min's viewing. He's not naturally falling for her. If Min didn't have that viewing, then he wouldn't even keep Tuon. Oddly enough, I actually like Tuon. She's feisty. lol
-Perrin's storyline was dissapointing. He, along with Two Rivers soldiers, Aes Sedai, and Asha'man have located the Shaido camp where Faile and Alliandre are being kept. There are thousands of them, way too many for Perrin to risk an assault. He does have the benefit of Traveling from the Asha'man. Since the Shaido have no male channelers, their movements are hidden. It's too bad that this storyline just ended too. I really wanted to see how this played out. It winds up with Perrin considering a truce with the Seanchan. I didn't expect that I'll admit, but it does make sense. They would be a powerful ally and Tarmon Gai'don IS coming soon. High time everybody teamed up together.
-In my favorite chapter, Alvarian gets put in her place by Elaida, for leaving the Tower in a time of seige. Back at her room she uses an emergency call box of some kind to send for Mesaana. She comes, but so does Shadar Haren. Shadar ties Mesanna up with some type of power (I thought he couldn't channel.) He asks Alvarian if she wants to witness Mesaana's execution. She says no and he makes Alvarian his official pet. He marks her with the Dark One's touch. I thought this was pretty cool. Just as I thought Alvarian had spun her last web, she gets a promotion!!! I'm still interested to see what Elaida will do when/if she finds all this out.
-Rand's storyline was very short too. He also decides to make a truce with the Seanchan. They send someone to meet him called the Daughter of the Nine Moons. This I don't get. I'm not sure if Tuon ISN'T the DotNM or that the book jumped timelines again. Tuon is still with Mat and they aren't near Rand. I'm interested to see how this truce goes and see what they demand of Rand in return.
-Egwene still has the White Tower under seige. At the end she is captured after sabotaging the harbor. I originally thought she had cut the giant chain using a gateway, but I've now learned that she turned it into cuendillar. Very nice plan I must say. Very bad that she is captured. I like Egwene and I don't want to see anything bad happen to her. Their seige certainly isn't going the way I thought it would.
-Rand, Mat, and Perrin all have colors swirling in their head anytime they think of eachother. They almost form pictures of the one they are thinking about. I'm not sure where this came from, but perhaps it'lll end up being a way for them to communicate with eachother??
Okay guys. Sorry for the crappy update, I just didn't have many positive things to say about this one. Don't worry, I'm very much enjoying KoD. I'm almost caught up!!! Take care guys!!
-
Okay Update!! Finished Crossroads of Twilight! Sorry the update is late but I have been VERY busy.
Okay, I'm sorry to admit that I didn't enjoy this one as much as the others. It was very slow and it really seemed like NOTHING happened. Some of the other books went on too long, but they had some major events in there and all had spectacular endings. This one just ends unfortunately. Don't worry I haven't given up. I do have Knife of Dreams and I am currently 180 pages into it. Now THIS is a good book. But this update will be for CoT.
*clap* Glad you got through it, it's understandable if your busy just glad you finished and already on to the next book to boot! With CoT what I think RJ was attempting to do was to show the Cleansing from other people's point of views that were not there. He wanted reactions to it that I think would not have fit in Winter's Heart, so what you have is a book full of build up. So unlike some fans I don't think RJ was milking it, he just tried a different way of telling this part of the story that didn't get a good reaction from the fandom. Where in previous books as you point out we get major climaxes at least, this one just seems one long intrigue story that doesn't really conclude.
-First off, the section of the book dealing with Elayne and her politics was the hardest part to get through. It just went on for so long and nothing happened. I'm getting frustrated with her storyline. Why does it have to go on for so long. I understand she can't just jump right on the throne, but a lot of it is just needless. It doesn't really expand the story for me, it just bogs things down.
Yeah these Elayne chapters were pretty hard to digest, it does seem silly in some ways to play such games when the Apocalypse is on the Horizon.
-Mat and his gang catch up with Luca and his traveling show. Boy this guy just shows up everywhere lol. He still has Tuon but she keeps calling him Toy and acts as if she's allowing this all to go on. Despite her attitude, and the negative attitudes of her servants, Mat keeps trying to win her affections. He brings her flowers, a necklace, and tries playing stones with her. This is kind of odd actually. I mean, the ONLY reason he's doing this is because of Min's viewing. He's not naturally falling for her. If Min didn't have that viewing, then he wouldn't even keep Tuon. Oddly enough, I actually like Tuon. She's feisty. lol
First it wasn't Min's visions it was the Finn's stating he had to marry the Dot9m. Also for this I think we do need to see them developing their relationship otherwise as you point out it will just feel forced and not natural.
-Perrin's storyline was dissapointing. He, along with Two Rivers soldiers, Aes Sedai, and Asha'man have located the Shaido camp where Faile and Alliandre are being kept. There are thousands of them, way too many for Perrin to risk an assault. He does have the benefit of Traveling from the Asha'man. Since the Shaido have no male channelers, their movements are hidden. It's too bad that this storyline just ended too. I really wanted to see how this played out. It winds up with Perrin considering a truce with the Seanchan. I didn't expect that I'll admit, but it does make sense. They would be a powerful ally and Tarmon Gai'don IS coming soon. High time everybody teamed up together.
This is the storyline that most of the fandom complains about that it just drags on and on. It doesn't help when many even think that Faile doesn't deserve Perrin and how he constantly pines and whines for her. When you said storyline ended you don't mean Perrin Rescuing Faile do you? Cause it's not over in this book for sure.
-In my favorite chapter, Alvarian gets put in her place by Elaida, for leaving the Tower in a time of seige. Back at her room she uses an emergency call box of some kind to send for Mesaana. She comes, but so does Shadar Haren. Shadar ties Mesanna up with some type of power (I thought he couldn't channel.) He asks Alvarian if she wants to witness Mesaana's execution. She says no and he makes Alvarian his official pet. He marks her with the Dark One's touch. I thought this was pretty cool. Just as I thought Alvarian had spun her last web, she gets a promotion!!! I'm still interested to see what Elaida will do when/if she finds all this out.
This probably is my favorite chapter as well and it's entitled "The Mark", which made me think she had been made a new Forsaken. Sadly no she's just been picked out as a favorite "pet" for Shadar Haran. So I'm not so sure this is a promotion as someone saying "This is my favorite Dog, see that it is treated well." RJ confirmed this in a Q&A since others wondered if she had just been made a new Choosen.
-Rand's storyline was very short too. He also decides to make a truce with the Seanchan. They send someone to meet him called the Daughter of the Nine Moons. This I don't get. I'm not sure if Tuon ISN'T the DotNM or that the book jumped timelines again. Tuon is still with Mat and they aren't near Rand. I'm interested to see how this truce goes and see what they demand of Rand in return.
Oh Toun is the Dot9m and she is indeed with Mat, so if the Seachan SAY they are sending Toun and yet do not actually have Toun. What do you think that means then?
-Egwene still has the White Tower under seige. At the end she is captured after sabotaging the harbor. I originally thought she had cut the giant chain using a gateway, but I've now learned that she turned it into cuendillar. Very nice plan I must say. Very bad that she is captured. I like Egwene and I don't want to see anything bad happen to her. Their seige certainly isn't going the way I thought it would.
That's for sure, I think RJ managed to surprise us all with Egwene's WT storyline.
-Rand, Mat, and Perrin all have colors swirling in their head anytime they think of eachother. They almost form pictures of the one they are thinking about. I'm not sure where this came from, but perhaps it'lll end up being a way for them to communicate with eachother??
One would hope so but you know how stubborn they can be about somethings.
Okay guys. Sorry for the crappy update, I just didn't have many positive things to say about this one. Don't worry, I'm very much enjoying KoD. I'm almost caught up!!! Take care guys!!
Enjoy Knife of Dreams, after that you can read New Spring. Then it's waiting until November for the next book.
-
Yay Joe!
I agree, COT was a pretty tough read, I'm not that far but I'm not looking forward to it in this re-read. Almost all of it feels kind of necessary after you read KoD but still hurts trying to get through it. Definitely pick up new spring when you're done. It's a shorty but there are some great things in that book you won't want to miss. TONS of Lan POV and a certain test that I thought was pretty cool :-) It's much better if you have read deep in to the series as there are tons of people that pop up, but they are all 20 years younger.
-
Yeah, CoT is slow and comparatively uneventful, but now you're done and can enjoy KoD.
-Mat and his gang catch up with Luca and his traveling show. Boy this guy just shows up everywhere lol. He still has Tuon but she keeps calling him Toy and acts as if she's allowing this all to go on. Despite her attitude, and the negative attitudes of her servants, Mat keeps trying to win her affections. He brings her flowers, a necklace, and tries playing stones with her. This is kind of odd actually. I mean, the ONLY reason he's doing this is because of Min's viewing. He's not naturally falling for her. If Min didn't have that viewing, then he wouldn't even keep Tuon. Oddly enough, I actually like Tuon. She's feisty. lol
You'd think Luca is Ta'veren or something the way he keeps running into main characters all the time. :P It's actually the Finns, not Min, and he is gradually falling in love with her. I was rather amused when I learned the Seanchan marriage ceremony and that Mat had already completed half of it by accident.
-Perrin's storyline was dissapointing. He, along with Two Rivers soldiers, Aes Sedai, and Asha'man have located the Shaido camp where Faile and Alliandre are being kept. There are thousands of them, way too many for Perrin to risk an assault. He does have the benefit of Traveling from the Asha'man. Since the Shaido have no male channelers, their movements are hidden. It's too bad that this storyline just ended too. I really wanted to see how this played out. It winds up with Perrin considering a truce with the Seanchan. I didn't expect that I'll admit, but it does make sense. They would be a powerful ally and Tarmon Gai'don IS coming soon. High time everybody teamed up together.
No big climaxes in CoT, but at least you get the payoff from this one's buildup in KoD.
-Rand's storyline was very short too. He also decides to make a truce with the Seanchan. They send someone to meet him called the Daughter of the Nine Moons. This I don't get. I'm not sure if Tuon ISN'T the DotNM or that the book jumped timelines again. Tuon is still with Mat and they aren't near Rand. I'm interested to see how this truce goes and see what they demand of Rand in return.
No jumping timelines here. Tuon is indeed the DotNM, and she is in Mat's custody when this happens. Someone in Seanchan is plotting something and isn't being honest.
-Egwene still has the White Tower under seige. At the end she is captured after sabotaging the harbor. I originally thought she had cut the giant chain using a gateway, but I've now learned that she turned it into cuendillar. Very nice plan I must say. Very bad that she is captured. I like Egwene and I don't want to see anything bad happen to her. Their seige certainly isn't going the way I thought it would.
She's trying to block the harbor, not open it, cutting the chain would be counterproductive. As for the capture... this leads to some unfortunately short scenes of pure awesomeness for Egwene in KoD. So much so that she's seriously competing with Mat for the label of my favorite character in the book.
Okay guys. Sorry for the crappy update, I just didn't have many positive things to say about this one. Don't worry, I'm very much enjoying KoD. I'm almost caught up!!! Take care guys!!
Have fun with KoD. I'll be interested to see your reaction to a certain major bombshell revelation about a certain character we haven't seen in a while. It should be obvious which one I mean when you get to it.
-
One small point, Joe. Mesaana is not going to be killed, just roughed up a good amount. Shaidar Haran has access to a power that is unexplained, and I believe this is the only time he uses it (he attacks physically every other time). His "Dark Stedding" ability should make things interesting in the last books.
-
my question is is it some how connected to the threads that connect the forsaken to the DO or can he use it on anone... i mean if i was the DO i would have some check measures against the forsaken... did anyone think of that?
-
I think Kaz that's why Moridin started Mindtrapping the Forsaken. Two have been mindtrapped and at least a third threatened to be Mindtrapped.
-
Im inclined to agree with you and that the stilling effect (he can turn it off can't he?) effects all OP users but the possibility is what i was mentioning not what i thought
-
I'd just like to say that I ran across this thread purely by chance yesterday and it's been a blast reading the account from someone who's never before read through WoT. Joe, you and everybody else have been quite entertaining!
Ironically, I was about a week away from starting my own re-read of the series so that I'd be sure to be done by the time The Gathering Storm comes out. After reading this thread I'm no longer sure that I need to do so.
But I won't let that stop me. There's always something new that I notice whenever I go back through a book, especially these. I'm still trying to figure out who killed Asmodean, in fact. My patience is wearing thin after ten years of wondering, however. If Brandon doesn't get around to answering it in TGS I'll probably break down and Google it.
Looking forward to your KoD report!
-
If Brandon doesn't get around to answering it in TGS I'll probably break down and Google it.
That won't really help. No one but Brandon and the editors knows, and they aren't talking.
-
I have a vague memory from back in the day that RJ acknowledged that one of the theories that had been published at some point was in fact correct. As I recall, he used this as partial justification for saying, See? It's obvious. RAFO. I figure that between looking up the theories, chucking the dumb ones and comparing the rest with a fresh read that I'll at least be able to claim that I knew it all along later ;D .
-
I suspect everyone has seen the answer, or correct theory, even if they don't know it is the right one. So I don't know if it will be surprising or just satisfying to have a final answer to this long standing mystery.
-
Came across this thread as I lurked about the forums. Kudos for joining the wotmaniacs! :D
I started my reread in preparation for tGS in November, but alas, I'm finding starting at the beginning slow again. However, your recaps of 4-8 (which occasionally blend together in my head... particularly the last few) encourage me to get there.
Regarding Asmo's death, isn't it obvious? Bela and Narg tag-teamed it using the True Sauce, a killer snack of pasta perfection.
-
Bela is a dark friend of no small power. Even the Chosen bow before the might of the shaggy mountain pony. Narg, however, is a traitor. He actually speaks to humans so must be eliminated.
-
I understand this is a fantasy world etc., but even so, when I read things I always relate it to how I would react, so that's why I saw it as rape. She was manipulative and creepy (in my mind) and if a guy did that to me I would feel violated.
I was glad when that story line ended because Tylin creeped me out and made the Mat parts a little less fun for me because it didn't feel like a healthy or fun relationship to me.
Opinions of things like this vary a lot in our world too, so it makes sense we don't all agree.
For some reason i think theres a difference between a guy being aggressive and a girl being aggressive. I can see how it could make you uncomfortable to picture yourself in mats situation but he is a guy, it's not relay the same thing.
Slightly off suptopic but does girls seem to be more on the side of Mat being raped while guys find it easier to accept an aggressive woman taking the initiative and just sees it as an interesting encounter for mat?
-
Actually from what I have seen it's the girls that think Mat wasn't raped and the guys thinking he was.
-
She cuts of his bloddy clothes... and he was trying to run he even uses a child as a shield to avoid her advances how the hell is that consentual?
-
FINISHED KNIFE OF DREAMS!!!! ALL CAUGHT UP GUYS!!
Well, I actually finished it last Wednesday, so you'll have to forgive me for being lazy. I had a lot to think about. This book was EXCELLENT!! Fires of Heaven is still my favorite, but this one ranks a close second or third. Lot of action and great story. This is what all of the books should have been structured like.
Okay, time for the update. I needed some help from wikipedia on everything that happened because SOOO MUCH happened! I can't remember it all. Here we go....
-The prolougue where Galad challenges Valda was intense. Valda grants his right to challenge whom he's accusing, only for Galad to turn around and say Valda was the one he was challenging. Very cool! Good fight scene. I'm finally happy to see Galad coming into his own as Gawyn has. It's a shame these two characters took so long to become so important.
-Surprisingly, I thought Egwene's story was the most compelling in this book. Usually it would be Mat or Rand where the action is. But her imprisonment in the White Tower was written so well. Her endless beatings at the hands of Silviana while still maintaining her dignity and claim to the Amyrlin Seat have shown how far her character has come. The subtle ways she sows dissent among the Aes Sedai. Jordan did a good job of showing how effective her methods were. How some Aes Sedai would get mad outright at the things she said, implying they agreed even if they wouldn't say it out loud. Egwene is slowly planting seeds here and there about how unstable an Amyrlin Elaida is. The only thing I don't get is that Beonin (who betrayed Egwene in the first place) told Elaida about Egwene's ability to communicate with the rebels via her dreams. Why hasn't Elaida done anything about this??
-Mat and Tuon's relationship finally progressed....she completed the marriage ceremony!! Well, that was at the end but it's still a big deal lol. Mat and his Red Band army where battling Seanchan sent to kill Tuon throughout the book and eventually got help from the leader of the Deathwatch Guards. (Why would the Seanchan army have orders to kill Tuon but not the Deathwatch Guards??) Anyways, Tuon agrees to go with the DW guards for her safety and splits ways with Mat after completing the marriage ceremony. I don't really understand Tuon that much. She is more appealing in this book, and I've enjoyed the couple of chapters that were from her viewpoint, but I still just don't GET her. She has no problem watching Mat's army slaughter Seanchan with arrows. Aren't these her people?? By the way, the scene where Mat spanks Joline for slapping him had me laughing out loud. Nobody could do anything because of his foxhead medallion. For someone who hate Aes Sedai as much as Mat does, this must have been a big deal for him lol. She deserved it though. Joline is humbled very easily when she can't just wrap someone up in Air.
- Thom finally let Mat read his letter from Moiraine and HOLY CRAP!!! She's alive!! I guess she's prisoner (?) to the Finn's and only Thom, Mat, and one other person (I think it might be Noal) can save her but only if they themselves go. Otherwise she will die. This had my heart racing. I'd LOVE to have Moiraine back in the story. I've wanted to see her reaction to certain events for a long time since she "died." I want to see her meet Cadsuane. I want to see her reaction the the cleansing of saidin. What she thinks of Egwene as Amyrlin seat. Potential Thom/Moiraine romance?? So many things!!! I'd love to see other Aes Sedai's reactions to her being alive, as she is now legendary among Aes Sedai for killing TWO Forsaken herself. This is one plot thread I will eagerly be awaiting.
- Perrin finally rescued Faile. This is one storyline that went on for far too long lol. I thought it was creative pouring forkroot tea into their water supply. Also, when the Two River's archers are brought via a gateway to help Perrin, Tam is with them!!! I had totally forgotten what happened to him! I'm stoked to have him back in the story. The battle scenes with the Shaido were done very well. Perrin's Aes Sedai battling the Wise Ones who could still channel. Meanwhile, Faile manages to get a hold of the Oath Rod because Galine told her she'd help her escape if she got that for her. Surprise surprise, Galine betray her, Alliandre, and Morgase (as Maighdin) and takes off. They are all rescued by Rolan who is then killed by Perrin!! This I didn't like. I understand that Perrin would tear through anything and anyone to get to Faile but I actually liked Rolan. It was just so weird how he died. Perrin just smashed his head and Faile didn't even get upset. Maybe this is a future plot thread?? She decided not to tell him anything about Rolan. Smart decision I guess.
Also, Aram tried to kill Perrin out of nowhere. He claimed that Masema convinced him that Perrin was a darkfriend. This I didn't see coming, but I actually thought it was pretty cool. I never liked Aram anyway lol. Perrin doesn't kill him though, he is struck by Shaido arrows......as he chose to try killing Perrin in the midst of a large battle. Smart one. I absolutely cannot wait until Masema is dealt with btw. I'm sick of him!!!
- Elayne gained the throne FINALLY!!!!! Once again Elayne's story kind of bogged down the book until the end. When she went to battle the Black Ajah and was captured was when Elayne became interesting again. Birgitte's rescue and subsequent battle was very well written. Now they has a terengal that can make balefire and some of the Black Ajah are captured. Since they used a gateway to take so many soldiers outside the city, they march right back in afterwards behind Arymilla's soldiers and box them in and defeat them. Thus...finally....mother of God finally.....she attains the crown. All of the other nobles stand with her and give her their support. Here's to hoping that her storyline moves past the politics in the future books.
-I thought what Nyneave did to Lan was tricky, but her love for him made me understand it. Though, the more I thought of it, the more I didn't like it. He wants to go to Sheinar but Nyneave uses a gateway and leaves him at World's End in Saldea!!! Why?!? What if he is killed or gets lost?? She'd feel pretty bad!! Anyways, it later shows her finding Lan's old countrymen and convincing them to find Lan and follow him to Sheinar. I thought it was pretty cool that Lan get's send to the end of the world and immediately make a b-line for Sheinar anyways. I figure that his storyline will culminate with him and his newly gathered army saving the day in one of the future books. I also look forward to the next time he sees Nyneave in person lol.
- Rand is fully convinced that Tarmon Gai'don is coming. The dead are walking and every now and them are strange ripples in the Pattern. He is supposed to meet with the daughter of the nine moons for a truce with the Seanchan because he can't find them and the shadow. First off, the battle scene where all the Trollocas and Myrdrall descend on Rand in his palace was AWESOME. Lews Therin took saidin from him and began using battle weaves that we haven't seen before!! Like, gateways that go horizontal and slice through line of shadowspawn. I never thought of that!! I love how Loagain and the Asha'man were all confused for a second then copied his weaves. Like the red arrows that shoot from his fingertips. Logain actually accuses Rand of holding things back from them once the battle is all over lol. When he goes to meet TDotNM he is ambushed. Turns out that it was actually Sermirhage in disguise. Her illusion flickered for one second revealing her to be fake, unfortunately Rand was unable to seize saidin in time and LOST HIS HAND for it!!!! Holy crap that sucks!! Unfortunately, I knew he lost him hand. The cover of Gathering Storm kinda spoiled it for me. At least I didn't know how. I totally didn't expect it to be Semirhage. She hasn't been very active throughout the books and all of a sudden she makes an attempt on Rand's life. (Why?? I thought Moridin told the Forsaken to only kill Mat and Perrin) Very well written scene btw. Now Semirhage is captive. The best part was when Cadsuane went face to face with and Air bound Semirhage and said "I look forward to long talks with you." or something like that. SOOOO COOL. Those are interactions I will be looking forward to in the forthcoming books.
Whew!!! My fingers hurt. There's a lot more to discuss but I am tired of writing right now. Hopefully you guys are as glad as I am that I am now caught up. November 6th is when I first started EOTW. Been a long time and I will very much enjoy being part of the discussions with you guys. Man, there was so much that happened in Knife of Dreams. Even stuff I didn't pick up in the book, only to learn about it when reading about it online. For example, I didn't know it was one of Cadsuane medallions that made Semirhage's illusion flicker. Or that what Taim said at the end, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" was something ONLY the Forsaken have said. Man this story is deep. There's other things to discuss and I will be back to discuss them. I also had some questions for the people who've responded the most like douglas and Shard. I thank you very much for following me on my journey and reading these updates!! I am going to hold off reading New Spring until maybe October. I kinda wanted to take a little break from WOT and let everything settle. Plus, I wanted to read Warbreaker (of which I am not 60 pages into.) Don't worry, I officially am a fan of WOT now. Thanks again for all your insight you guys. We still have lots to talk about!!!
-
FINISHED KNIFE OF DREAMS!!!! ALL CAUGHT UP GUYS!!
Great! Now head on over to the Wheel of Time FAQ (http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/) and read some more. ;D
Oh, and make a note about November 3rd, the release date of The Gathering Storm. Just a little over four months away.
-Surprisingly, I thought Egwene's story was the most compelling in this book. Usually it would be Mat or Rand where the action is. But her imprisonment in the White Tower was written so well. Her endless beatings at the hands of Silviana while still maintaining her dignity and claim to the Amyrlin Seat have shown how far her character has come. The subtle ways she sows dissent among the Aes Sedai. Jordan did a good job of showing how effective her methods were. How some Aes Sedai would get mad outright at the things she said, implying they agreed even if they wouldn't say it out loud. Egwene is slowly planting seeds here and there about how unstable an Amyrlin Elaida is.
Great scene. It amazes me on review just how short it is when my memory keeps insisting on it being such a huge part of the book. Just goes to show how well written it was and how much of an impression it left. It's a tossup which of Egwene and Mat is my favorite character in this book, and this sequence is why. I'm sure you'll be glad to know that the short blurb about TGS on the JordanCon program (also available a few other places, I think) gives Egwene quite a prominent focus.
The only thing I don't get is that Beonin (who betrayed Egwene in the first place) told Elaida about Egwene's ability to communicate with the rebels via her dreams. Why hasn't Elaida done anything about this??
Because she can't. Really, what can you do to stop an ability that requires nothing more than sleeping to use without completely giving up on trying to force her into the Novice role? There might be a ter'angreal somewhere in the Tower's stockpile that would do the trick, but no Aes Sedai has any clue which one or how it might work.
-Mat and Tuon's relationship finally progressed....she completed the marriage ceremony!! Well, that was at the end but it's still a big deal lol. Mat and his Red Band army where battling Seanchan sent to kill Tuon throughout the book and eventually got help from the leader of the Deathwatch Guards. (Why would the Seanchan army have orders to kill Tuon but not the Deathwatch Guards??)
The Seanchan army would never accept an order to kill Tuon if they knew who their target really was. They are given a description and offered a reward, but are lied to about the identity of their target. That would never work with the Deathwatch Guard, though, because they all know Tuon by sight.
Anyways, Tuon agrees to go with the DW guards for her safety and splits ways with Mat after completing the marriage ceremony. I don't really understand Tuon that much. She is more appealing in this book, and I've enjoyed the couple of chapters that were from her viewpoint, but I still just don't GET her. She has no problem watching Mat's army slaughter Seanchan with arrows. Aren't these her people??
The bulk of the force that's really after her is all recruits from conquered mainland areas, not actual Seanchan soldiers. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if high ranking Seanchan nobles consider rank and file soldiers to be little more than expendable assets.
- Thom finally let Mat read his letter from Moiraine and HOLY CRAP!!! She's alive!! I guess she's prisoner (?) to the Finn's and only Thom, Mat, and one other person (I think it might be Noal) can save her but only if they themselves go. Otherwise she will die. This had my heart racing. I'd LOVE to have Moiraine back in the story. I've wanted to see her reaction to certain events for a long time since she "died." I want to see her meet Cadsuane. I want to see her reaction the the cleansing of saidin. What she thinks of Egwene as Amyrlin seat. Potential Thom/Moiraine romance?? So many things!!! I'd love to see other Aes Sedai's reactions to her being alive, as she is now legendary among Aes Sedai for killing TWO Forsaken herself. This is one plot thread I will eagerly be awaiting.
Yes, wonderful news, long anticipated by many theorists (see section 2.2.6 (http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.6_moir-no-dead.html) of the WOTFAQ). Unfortunately, we will probably have to wait another year to see this one resolved.
- Elayne gained the throne FINALLY!!!!! Once again Elayne's story kind of bogged down the book until the end. When she went to battle the Black Ajah and was captured was when Elayne became interesting again. Birgitte's rescue and subsequent battle was very well written. Now they has a terengal that can make balefire and some of the Black Ajah are captured. Since they used a gateway to take so many soldiers outside the city, they march right back in afterwards behind Arymilla's soldiers and box them in and defeat them. Thus...finally....mother of God finally.....she attains the crown. All of the other nobles stand with her and give her their support. Here's to hoping that her storyline moves past the politics in the future books.
Brandon has mentioned that one character was already exactly where he or she needed to be for Tarmon Gai'don, and I think I've seen some reference to it being Elayne. If that's correct, she will mostly disappear for the next two books.
-I thought what Nyneave did to Lan was tricky, but her love for him made me understand it. Though, the more I thought of it, the more I didn't like it. He wants to go to Sheinar but Nyneave uses a gateway and leaves him at World's End in Saldea!!! Why?!? What if he is killed or gets lost?? She'd feel pretty bad!!
Lan Mandragoran. The Uncrowned King of Malkier. In the borderlands. Do you seriously think there is even the slightest chance he could possibly get lost or killed before he gets where he's going? I don't. He is not going to be in any serious danger until he gets to Tarwin's Gap and heads into the blight, and it's going to take him a long time to get there. Time, by the way, which will allow people to join him, make him safer, and give his mission a chance of actually accomplishing something. Remember way back in the Eye of the World when Agelmar says that if Lan ever raised the banner of the Golden Crane an entire army, tens of thousands strong, would spontaneously form around it from all the borderlanders coming to help him? Nynaeve is forcing him to do that and forcing him to take enough time that the army will be able to gather.
First off, the battle scene where all the Trollocas and Myrdrall descend on Rand in his palace was AWESOME. Lews Therin took saidin from him and began using battle weaves that we haven't seen before!! Like, gateways that go horizontal and slice through line of shadowspawn. I never thought of that!!
Actually, those are regular vertical gateways. They just move and keep opening and closing. It's a way to take advantage of the newly revealed fact that shadowspawn cannot survive going through a gateway.
When he goes to meet TDotNM he is ambushed. Turns out that it was actually Sermirhage in disguise. Her illusion flickered for one second revealing her to be fake, unfortunately Rand was unable to seize saidin in time and LOST HIS HAND for it!!!! Holy crap that sucks!! Unfortunately, I knew he lost him hand. The cover of Gathering Storm kinda spoiled it for me. At least I didn't know how. I totally didn't expect it to be Semirhage. She hasn't been very active throughout the books and all of a sudden she makes an attempt on Rand's life. (Why?? I thought Moridin told the Forsaken to only kill Mat and Perrin)
She was actually trying to capture him. Notice that she had several copies of both female and male a'dam ready to use, enough to put one on the neck of every channeler he brought regardless of what gender mix he chose. And, well, the Forsaken have never exactly been a very united lot or taken well to being ordered around.
Now, what you can look forward to in TGS:
Brandon revealed at JordanCon that there are four major simultaneous but separated plot arcs to go through before everyone gets back together for Tarmon Gai'don. Two of these, plus minor beginning stuff from the other two, will be in TGS. The other two, plus maybe a little extra stuff at the end of the first two, will be in whatever Shifting Winds gets renamed to. The final book, which will probably be titled A Memory of Light, will feature all the plot arcs rejoining and converging into the giant battle the entire series has been leading up to.
Judging by the short blurb on the JordanCon program, the two arcs in TGS will be Egwene in the Tower, and Rand trying to unite the nations and ally with the Seanchan. I'm pretty sure the rescue Moiraine expedition is major enough to be one of the other two primary plot arcs, so I doubt we're going to see that until next year, unfortunately. >:( Oh well, I'm sure there's plenty of awesomeness for all four plot arcs, and I'll be very happy about seeing Egwene take over the White Tower. :D
-
I really have lost all interest in Egwene since she became Amrylin whe is to stupid, like darn near every Aes Sedai (the first weaver in the rebel camp is the worst), that Ashaman are their counterparts...they are equal and Rand can do whatever he pleases he doesn't need to be lead he needs to lead everyone else... Aes Sedai have lost all comprehension on who the dragon is and what it means to be the dragon. He leads all the world in the war against shadow they are just followers. >:(
-
YAY Joe!
You will definitely want to pick up new spring at some point, it's a great read, and really quick too, only about 300 pages and all pretty fast paced. Some of the things that I was really curious about are answered in that book.
When you do get around to it, I hope we get to see a recap of that one too. It's been a blast going through the adventure with you :-)
-
Yeah Nynaeve has complete faith in Lan being able to ride to Tarwin Gap, fighting there however is another story which is why she bought herself and Lan time for an Army to be with or waiting for him at the Gap. Truly I expect an epic scene worthy of Lord of the Rings titanicly awesome battle.
I really loved Eggy's story in this book and was surprised by what she had decided to do. Truly it's brilliant, reduce AS casualities to nill, keep her army plus the Tower Guards intact and become Amrlyn seat to boot. She's got a head on her shoulders and I can't wait to see what else she does. I fear for the fates of Eliadia, Messanna and Alvarin.
Yeah now you have to wait with the rest of us *heh* Reading other books does help pass the time. Once you read up more on the WoT Faq you can take part in theory debates like Who Killed Asmo.
-
I fear for the fates of Eliadia, Messanna and Alvarin.
I'm not sure I read that right. Don't you mean you're gloating over what seems likely to happen to them soon? Especially Elaida; that woman deserves demotion to Novice for a decade plus a daily penance equal to the worst she has ever assigned, minimum, for sheer blind arrogant stupidity.
-
I fear for the fates of Eliadia, Messanna and Alvarin.
I'm not sure I read that right. Don't you mean you're gloating over what seems likely to happen to them soon? Especially Elaida; that woman deserves demotion to Novice for a decade plus a daily penance equal to the worst she has ever assigned, minimum, for sheer blind arrogant stupidity.
Yes Douglas, once again it's impossible to get the right voice inflection expressed over the internet. I probably could have worded it better. *heh*
-
One thing that I have to admit I'm not that psyched about is Sanderson's ability to write battle scenes.
don't get me wrong, Hero of Ages has some great battles, but compared to what Jordan was capable of...
nothing really beats going to the citadel (the military academy in South Carolina, FTWDNK) or actual combat experience (Jordan was a helicopter gunner in Vietnam, IIRC)
Dumai's Wells was one of the best battles I've ever read or seen in any medium, but I don't think Sanderson can beat it for Tarmon gaidon.
does anyone know how much of the actual battle was written by Jordan, and if it's one of the things he got on paper?
on the other hand, Sanderson has an unparalleled ability to tie up loose plot threads (I didn't even realize some of those things were hidden clues until the big reveal. see: crushedthroat)
-
Sanderson has said that writing the WoT book has caused his writing to grow, that he's had to do research he doesn't nomally do. Sun Tzo is one of those things Warbreaker is supposed to be a hint at how much his writing has changed.
-
Erickson's battle scenes put Jordan to shame...though WoT is my favorite series
-
I am just going to guess here. But, I believe that the final battle scene is completely written and will just have to be modified some to bring in the changes that will occur through editing and filling in the blanks of the rest of the book. We known that RJ wrote the end of the book a while back so hopefully that includes the final battle.
-
I'm sure the battle scenes will be fine. Harriet and RJ's two assistants are helping him the whole way, and much of the last scenes were mostly written already by RJ.
Joe - Have you guessed yet that Semirhage was Anath, Tuon's TruthSpeaker? If you read the scenes with her and Tuon again, it just jumps right out at you, especially how she gets the job (her former TS falls down a flight of stairs and breaks her neck, and somehow "Anath" is chosen as a replacement instead of the person being groomed for the position). It seems no matter how often RJ wrote the "powerful influence coming out of nowhere" clue of a Forsaken most of us still miss it.
Your opinion on Semi's attack on Rand got me thinking; if she really wanted to kill him, you'd think she would have had some better attack than a little fireball......
-
Rigney was subtle. The powerful influences coming out of nowhere are not overpowering set against the backdrop of the story at large. It's forgivable to miss some of that foreshadowing.
I love the fact that Lan is gathering the Shienaran Diaspora, the question is how this will work out when he's forced to face his brother at the head of a battalion of Trollocs and Fades.
Fortunately the story of Perin and Zarine is far from over. There is still a little matter of a broken crown, as well as the final unification of Manetheren.
In the Afterward, where Semirhage was arrested, it's pretty obvious that they are in or near Seandar rather than Ebu Dar so what ever her previous role, Semirhage assassinated the Empress and put herself in control of the Empire. When Tuon meets Rand she'll be as much a beggar looking for a hand out as Elayne was when Rand occupied Caemlyn. OF course she won't BE Tuon. As a married woman and the new Empress, she will take a throne name and I have a sneaky suspicion that it will be "old tongue" for precious. Knowing Tuon half of her reason for taking the name precious will be so she can once again start calling Mat "toy".
Given all the Scythian influence on the "old tongue". (Yeah I know some of it was just take an english phrase and mangle the pronouciation, but since old english is a scythian dialect. . .) I suspect it will be something like Shah-min. But, given the similarity to Asha'man (a shaman) and shaman, as well as the term Seanchan (which borrows the gaelic "sha" from Sean and marries it with chan drawled like a Carolina farm boy) I'd rather see it be Seamin or Seameen despite the juvenile humor that will generate.
:)
-
Wait, Lan has a brother?
-
Wait, Lan has a brother?
actually his cousin
http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.02_slayer.html
-
Oh ok.
-
Wait, Lan has a brother?
actually his cousin
http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.02_slayer.html
Yeah there is alot of things like that which you might miss the first read through, and some stuff that you dont grasp until you almost memorized the books :P.
-
Doing a reread and just finished the part where Fain gets the dagger back from the tower. He mentions going after Rand and "old enemy". I don't have the exact quote on hand though. Any idea who this old enemy is. This seem to be from Mordiths perspective so it would have to be someone from the AoL (makes me think Asmodean but I haven't got back to his death scene yet). My only thoughts are one of the forsaken if he is referring to an individual.
-
Rand is the one with the wacky family...Luc is his uncle and Galad is his half-brother
-
Doing a reread and just finished the part where Fain gets the dagger back from the tower. He mentions going after Rand and "old enemy". I don't have the exact quote on hand though. Any idea who this old enemy is. This seem to be from Mordiths perspective so it would have to be someone from the AoL (makes me think Asmodean but I haven't got back to his death scene yet). My only thoughts are one of the forsaken if he is referring to an individual.
Me thinks "old enemy" is in reference Aridhoril's (sp) ancient enemy The shadow. Remember it was turned in to Shadar Logoth due to its own way of fighting the shadow.
-
Well I changed my mind in that it was Asmo because Shadar Logoth is after Age of Legends and during the time of the trolloc wars. With that in mind I still don't think it is the shadow. It sounded to much like and individual.
-
It could be Ishamael, but I always thought it was Old Dark One himself.
-
hmm, ive always wondered why Fain visits Caemlyn aswell(after the TR) before he goes to the tower and get the dagger again.
Also im abit curious if Slayer killed anyone important when he stepped out of the dream world and killed a sleeping couple. I remember when i read it it seemed he had choosen the wrong couple to go stab, but i dont know.
-
Shadar Logoth is in no way related to the DO because the friends of the dark that lived in Adrihol were far to ambitious and corrupted the power of shadow to fight true shadow...
-
Well its related in the way that it fights the shadow. The two wounds in Rands side fights each other and keep each other at bay. Same thing when Rand cleansed the male true source, he battled the taint vs shadar logoth and cleansed it.
-
hmm, ive always wondered why Fain visits Caemlyn aswell(after the TR) before he goes to the tower and get the dagger again.
Also im abit curious if Slayer killed anyone important when he stepped out of the dream world and killed a sleeping couple. I remember when i read it it seemed he had choosen the wrong couple to go stab, but i dont know.
Fain visits Caemlyn chasing Rand/Mat (I don't recall any other time). With the people that he killed he was actually aiming for his "Nephew & the wench". (Nephew = Rand; Wench = Min). I thought the POV in his head basically said they were nobody, just in wrong place at wrong time.
-
Slayer did kill some of the BA in the Tear that the Wondergirls had locked up.
-
Shadar Logoth is in no way related to the DO because the friends of the dark that lived in Adrihol were far to ambitious and corrupted the power of shadow to fight true shadow...
I like to think of it as:
DO = Lawful Evil (hierarchy, order, commands given and obeyed, everyone with a plan)
SL = Chaotic Evil (ambition, greed, paranoia, selfishness)
hmmm..... I wonder how the rest of the factions would go if you try to box it off in the DnD alignment grid?
-
That's freaky...to simplify matters like that is to invite mr. jordan's ghost to haunt you...but hey you have company over your midnight tea time! ::)
-
- Thom finally let Mat read his letter from Moiraine and HOLY CRAP!!! She's alive!! I guess she's prisoner (?) to the Finn's and only Thom, Mat, and one other person (I think it might be Noal) can save her but only if they themselves go. Otherwise she will die. This had my heart racing. I'd LOVE to have Moiraine back in the story. I've wanted to see her reaction to certain events for a long time since she "died." I want to see her meet Cadsuane. I want to see her reaction the the cleansing of saidin. What she thinks of Egwene as Amyrlin seat. Potential Thom/Moiraine romance?? So many things!!! I'd love to see other Aes Sedai's reactions to her being alive, as she is now legendary among Aes Sedai for killing TWO Forsaken herself. This is one plot thread I will eagerly be awaiting.
Actually Moraine and Cadsuane have already met and it wasn't a pleasant meeting. Moraine suspects that Cadsuane may be a darkfriend. This all happened in the prequel novel A New Spring.
Now, since we've read Cadsaune's point of view we know she isn't a darkfriend, but Moraine doesn't. I don't think she'll like how close she's gotten to Rand.
-
Wasn't this thread killed?
-
It seems it has been resurrected ... maybe somebody corrected it's aeon and brought it back to life.
-
Well we are all still waiting for JoeC's impressions of New Spring....
-
Well we are all still waiting for JoeC's impressions of New Spring....
LOL I'll have to get on that soon. I'm read The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown right now. Then it may be Salvatore's new Drizzt book after. Don't worry, I still do frequent these boards and I'm happy about how my thread has provoked discussion.
-
I'm doing my own reread ... though not at as fast a pace as I ought to.
Went through New Spring, Eye, and am now about halfway through Great Hunt.
I enjoyed new Spring and Eye a fair amount. Though I liked Great Hunt in the past, I am having a harder time staying interested in parts.
As I interact with some of these characters again, questions come to mind.
** Spoiler Warning **
I know that Verin is Black Ajah ... but am I the only one who gets the oddest feeling that she's almost more of a double agent? That she'll pay a heavy price for the way she has chosen to fight, but that she is really on the side of the light?
[edit]I have done some poking around on the internet. I can't remember exactly what convinced me that Verin is Black Ajah, but I am so convinced. As noted above, I somehow believe she is Black Ajah, -and- on the side of the light. But looking at the thoughts on the internet, I somehow suspect I will remain completely alone in this thought.[/edit]
** End Spoiler Warning **
-
Well she does lie in tGH. She tells Rand, "Moiraine sent me," which Moiraine later denies. But there are lots of theories on this. And I'm pretty sure that there's a good legitimate reason why Verin can't be a Darkfriend, but I can't remember what it is. I do like your idea of her being a double agent, though. That would be pretty cool.
-
I think Verin is on the good side and just used clever and ambiguous wording or stretching of the truth for that oft-quoted "lie". "Moiraine (and what I learned from her) caused me to come" is, I believe, a technically correct possible meaning of the phrase "Moiraine sent me", and is completely true. It's not her fault everyone interpreted it differently from how she meant it. ::)
-
Update!!! I finished Gathering Storm!!! lol
I just finished the book and came here to compliment it and figured I'd use my own thread to do it!! This book was EXELLENT!! So many situations resolved and new one created. There was so much great action!! I truly feel Brandon's style really helped the story move along at a great pace, but with much respect to RJ's original vision. I'm very curious to hear the opinions of the people who were the main contributors to this thread like Champion Kaz, Ingtarwasframed, and Renoard. But MOST especially Shard and douglas, as they were the two biggest contributors to the thread and took so much time to address each subject in my posts. You were the guys with all the answers for me because you were such big fans and knew the story so well. I would LOVE to hear your opinions on TGS and what you liked/disliked. I'll gladly share mine too!
It's good to be back!! lol
-Joe
-
My opinions:
Egwene was a crowning masterpiece of awesome. Her composure and tactics while captive were excellent, and her actions during the Seanchan attack were an all too rare example of someone actually being competent and intelligent for once. The way she got around the forkroot was great, and I was very happy to see someone actually put that giant stockpile of *greal in the Tower to use. Seriously, the White Tower has a very bad habit of acquiring objects of the power and letting them collect dust. The acquiring part is fine, but they really need to stop the dust collecting part soon. I particularly liked the scene where one of the Aes Sedai hears about a hard point of resistance forming in the novices' quarters, of all places, and the dawning realization that follows. The discussion among the Ajah heads where one of them mentions, without even bothering to present evidence, that Egwene will not be anyone's puppet and will be a strong Amyrlin was also very nice.
Verin's reveal was very well done, and the way she circumvented her Oath was a perfect example of Aes Sedai word manipulation, taking wording apparently meant for emphasis and following it literally to find a loophole. It's unfortunate that the Black Ajah Hunters got so thoroughly upstaged by Verin, but oh well. Maybe they'll turn up later with something to make that arc worthwhile. I'd been hoping for someone to find, break, and interrogate Alviarin, with that being the big breakthrough leading to the purge, but Verin's research works quite well too and clears up a lot of mystery and speculation about her.
Most of Rand's arc was a bit depressing to read, but it had a great payoff at the end. I think he's finally achieved the reintegration that Semirhage mentioned when she was captured, and it will be interesting to see exactly what that means. Does he have full access to Lews Therin's knowledge now? Regardless, I think he's going to be a much better person from now on, and he'll probably have a lot easier time getting along with everyone else. I'm expecting a lot fewer ultimatums and unexplained "just do it" orders from him in the remaining two books.
Rand's plan for taking out Graendal was a huge surprise and a big shock, but perfectly logical. I was impressed.
I'm really looking forward to Seanchan arrogance getting punctured in ToM. Somewhere along the line Rand is going to "bind the Nine Moons to serve him", and I imagine it will be great fun reading Tuon's reaction to that happening instead of the corrupted Seanchan prophecy of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne. I expect Seanchan society will be quite shaken up by the event. It's probably too much to hope for that their stance on damane might change, but I'll keep hoping for it anyway. With a ta'veren as strong as Rand around, you never know.
-
I'm pretty sure Rand achieved reintegration at the end of the book. However, I suspect that by using the true power, he has opened a much larger can of worms that he will need to deal with. Hopefully Lews Therin knew enough to help him deal with that fallout.
-
Yes, and he didn't have to shoot himself in the face to do it, either. Rand actually saw hundreds of previous lives in that moment of clarity. I'm glad you liked the new book, Joe. Now you can use this thread to make up some theories for us to discuss. You might have ideas we haven't thought of or have forgotten about over the years.
-
Egwene is Aes Sedai to the core... translation she is an arrogant *explictive* who thinks she has the right/ duty to guide the Dragon to his death, w/o making any of his sacrifices. That said she is a very competent women (and i agree with most of her political decisions), I just dislike her and the majority of Aes Sedai (Cadsuane, Moiraine, Verin, and Nyneave are all exceptions). Gawyn is WAY to self-righteous which fits him to a T. I wasn't disapointed like some with Mat b/c he was too worried to behave in his characteristic manner. Rand is my favorite character and the changes he expierenced were just flat out AMAZING, if at times depressing. Overall it is my third favorite book in the series due to the huge scope and the massive development of the characters (depending on the day EotW or DR is my fav.).
-
I'll agree that Egwene needs to learn some humility, and her apparent belief that Rand is a bumbling idiot who needs a wise (read: Aes Sedai, preferably herself) adviser to get anything done right is annoying, but the sheer magnitude of her competence compared with the extreme incompetence of the vast majority of Aes Sedai throughout the series more than makes up for it imo. Her double standard regarding men bonding women vs women bonding men needs correction too, but that's a relatively minor issue compared to her competence.
-
Note ... I agree Egwene is a little full of herself ....
But let's not forget, AS bonding men is, for the most part, voluntary.
The BT bonding AS (not just women, but AS) were forced bondings. I can understand being angry about that.
-
But the Aes Sedai aren't sure that all of the bondings were forced and the bondings that turned out alright i.e. Logan's still disgust them.... They forget Ashaman are their piers from 3k years ago also.... and that Rand is the rightful Amyrilin Seat
-
First, even if most of the BT bondings are forced, the WT has a right to be upset. (Yeah, yeah, I know the bonded sisters were sent to destroy the BT, but still ....)
Forced bonding doesn't sound like the kind of thing that should be done except in the direst of circumstances. (I'll accept in in Birgitte's case, because it was to save her very existence.)
Remember, even now, most AS don't know the OS is clean. Now, they are going to have to learn to deal with men channeling again, but until the source was cleaned, it was completely understandable that they didn't like men that channeled.
(Though to be honest, I think it is time for the Red Ajah to be disbanded ... they no longer serve an acceptable purpose. Time for those sisters to think of which other Ajah they would feel most comfortable in.)
But as to Rand being the rightful AS, I do not see it. Explain, please.
-
They do know the OS is cleaned b/c the sisters who bonded Ashaman have sent word... And LTT was the head of the Hall of Servants and all Aes Sedai therefore Rand who is his known reincarnation should be recognized as such.
-
They have been told. They do not yet believe it. It's going to take a while for true knowledge to spread. I'm not sure that even Egwene believes, yet.
As for LTT vs. Rand, Rand may be TDR, but he is not the Dragon, and LTT is ancient history. Rand is not currently in any mental condition to lead a reunified male and female AS. Even if he were (which he isn't, though Veins of Gold made progress in the right direction) I think he would pretty much have to destroy the WT to take control of it ... which is not something I would really consider to be a good thing.
Unless you believe the best thing is to completely destroy the WT, turn all the AS into OP-wielding refugees, and then try to start from scratch. I doubt Rand would want to be the AS, even if he could.
(Though it would be nice if the AS could remember they are supposed to serve, not to rule.)
-
You really should find a different abbreviation for Amyrlin Seat. AS for both Aes Sedai and Amyrlin Seat doesn't work.
-
You really should find a different abbreviation for Amyrlin Seat. AS for both Aes Sedai and Amyrlin Seat doesn't work.
You make a good point. I ended up using it for both without quite realising it because I didn't want to misspell Amyrlin.
-
I never said they would submit only that Rand was the rightful leader of all... including the AS, and he serves through his rule which is what AS probably claim though don't practice (i love sentence fragments)
-
Egwene, Egwene, Egwene. It's a testament to RJ how you can love a character and be upset with them at the same time. For example: I'm still not sure why she made such a 180 regarding the oath rod. If the Black Ajah situation taught them anything, it should have been that a false sense of security is worse than no security. Besides that, the oaths are only effective if the person is aware she is violating them.
As for still not trusting men; 3,000 years of history can't be undone overnight. That said, some are beginning to see the need to change (I believe Egwene is one of those, even if her Wise One mentality is a little heavy-handed).
Should the Red Ajah be disbanded? I think they all should be, honestly. What good is a "temporary society" if it never ends? There should be no distinction between them. An Aes Sedai is an Aes Sedai. They can still specialize in certain fields, but there wouldn't be this clique mentality. Also, there would no longer be Ajah leaders that can manipulate the Sitters for their own devices. Even without the existence of the Black Ajah this is not a good idea.
-
If you are trying to disrupt the clique mentality then you would need to establish a more balanced sharing of powers than what currently exist... the Amyrlin and the hall just play tug of war all the time
-
Hi JoeC,
Glad you enjoyed the latest installment of the WoT books. I think the thing I enjoyed the most was when I opened to the title page and there stamped under the title was Rj's autograph. Having read his books since I was in HS (approx. 13 years ago) and I knew that I would never be able to meet the man and get this autograph. So this was the next best thing and apparently this was thanks to Brandon. That just makes him awesome I think.
As for the writing I thought this was an excellent addition to the series and I haven't had as much fun with the books since 4 and 5. I enjoyed the dark path and climax of Rand's journey in this story, I was truly afraid for his sanity as well for the safety of Min. I thought that Tam calling Cadsuane a bully was as excellent as her getting Semiraghe spanked to humiliate her. Pride seems to be a great flaw amongst many of the WoT characters. I wonder what Rand will be like now that he has found his sense of humor again, remember though he can laugh he is still damaged from the Taint and linked to Moridin. Plus the dual scars on his side and he used TP so that may tempt him again... Rand he may be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel but he is not out of the forest yet.
Course that's not taking into account the other messes Rand needs to clean up, Bandar Eban, the Borderlanders in Far Madding, the Black Tower, and possibly Lan Irtulde. There's also debate on if Greandal is really dead or not, theories that she either used a Compulsion weave that would disapate or someone else put that weave.
What little we get of Perrin was good, with hints of some really great stuff to look forward to in ToM. I loved that Faile took care of Masema, she finally did something useful.
Egwene was probably the best part of the books watching that story come to a climax, Verin's sacrfice was a heartbreaking part for me since she was one of my most liked characters. Seems she was BA all along lol. People should know that Messana is apparently still in the Tower and the Four Bloodwrasps are still unaccounted for.
Mat I know has had the most controversal part, many feeling his character was off from the previous books. I think Brandon explains it best by saying Mat's world has been turned upside down here now that he is married, he is trying to figure out how to deal with that fact. I feel as well that for the first time in a long time he's primarly surrounded by people he trusts, no Seachan or numerous AS to worry about to keep secrets from. I think he's still a man who doesn't want to wear the label Hero even if it is true of him.
I actually think the Ajah's should not only remain but the Asha'man would do well to have them. It keeps their order organized though I have a feeling the Channelers of both groups are going to have to evolve and change once TG is done.
I think Brandon has succeded with tGS and I can't wait to see ToM, aMoL and his own Epic fantasy series.
-
By the way, what I said about Rand not being in any shape to take the Amyrlin Seat, and having to destroy the WT to get it only applies right now.
If he survives TG and comes out of it fairly sane, and the world can tell things are much better all around, then a male/female WT under Rand might be a much better possibility. (Assuming Egwene can bend enough to allow such a possibility.)
-
I doubt it b/c it would take a huge change in Aes Sedai mentality to except anyone as an equal.... witness the popular opinion about older novices
-
Hey JoeC!
Like you I loved TGS.
Egwene parts were good and I'm glad that the tower divide is finally resolved.
Rand getting his crap straight at the end was great and I loved viritually all of his parts, both up and down.
The minor parts with Mat & Perrin were ok, tho I did find Mat a little bit off.
Verin = Awesome
I really enjoyed the book and can't wait to get to ToM; Glad you enjoyed too, Look forward to further input on the books.
Say did you ever get around to reading A New Spring? The small lull between now and ToM would be a good time to review that. There is some really cool information in that one that is fun to read about :-)
-
1 month and 1 day to go :>
-
Oh I'm still here! Lurking. Just finished Way of Kings last night and came to creep on the discussions. All my questions are being answered through the forum searching I'm doing. A little surprised to see this one got remembered!! Should I resurrect it for the next WOT book?? lol
-
Should I resurrect it for the next WOT book?? lol
Sure, why not? Have you read the prologue, chapter 1, and chapter 8 (I think) yet? Those have all been released online already.
-
No I purposely haven't. While I appreciate Brandon doing that for the fans in principal, I would kinda feel a bit teased. It would make the waiting a lot harder for me. But it's not all that bad. I just grabbed Salvatore's new Drizzt book today so I will VERY much enjoy that in the meantime!! Good to see you again btw douglas!
-
Ditto for me, JoeC. It's nice to enjoy the uninterrupted flow of the book. I made the mistake of reading the prologue and ch. 1 early last year and regretted it.
What did you think of The Way of Kings, if I may ask? I have 100 pages still to go, but the book finally grabbed me at about chapter 45. I'm hooked.
-
I'm glad I'm not the only one that avoids partial previews of unreleased books. Why should I hook myself before the final product is available?
-
Ditto for me, JoeC. It's nice to enjoy the uninterrupted flow of the book. I made the mistake of reading the prologue and ch. 1 early last year and regretted it.
What did you think of The Way of Kings, if I may ask? I have 100 pages still to go, but the book finally grabbed me at about chapter 45. I'm hooked.
I absolutely loved it! I ate that story right up. There's SO much there! I discovered even more when I came to the forums here. There was a lot of stuff I didn't understand, and others I had missed completely. Loved the story and the characters and the action was thrilling! Not too many people who can write a fight scene as well as BS.... except maybe Salvatore. ;)
-
I'm glad I'm not the only one that avoids partial previews of unreleased books. Why should I hook myself before the final product is available?
Because, like me, you find yourself utterly unable to resist?
Seriously, the Prologue, Chapter 1, and Chapter 8 are pretty awesome. Could I have lived without them? Yes. Should I have? Probably? Do I regret that I bought the prologue and read the others? Not for a second.
But then again, I'm a sucker for spoilers. I disconnect my internet whenever I get something like the next WoT book and I haven't finished it but other people have and are discussing it online. Otherwise I'd never make it through the book before finding out most of the ending.
-
I discovered even more when I came to the forums here. There was a lot of stuff I didn't understand, and others I had missed completely.
I just finished WoK. Wow! Loved all the last-few-chapter twists, especially between Shallan and Jasnah. I totally missed that Shallan had Soulcast without the Soulcaster, so her revelations were a surprise. I usually miss so much the first time through and am amazed at what I read on the forums. When I can abide the wild theories. Sometimes I just don't care!
I kinda expected Kaladin and Dalinar to join forces eventually and for the love affair to proceed between Dalinar and Navani, but that didn't make it any less satisfying. Best surprise for me: Talenel returning! And who and what, really, is Wit? And I also want to know more about Dalinar's late wife. . . and it all should be RAFO because speculation is just that, at this point. We do not have nearly enough information, nor should we.
See ya after ToM, JoeC!
-
And who and what, really, is Wit?
Wit is Hoid. If you don't know who Hoid is, you really haven't been reading this forum much.
-
And who and what, really, is Wit?
Wit is Hoid. If you don't know who Hoid is, you really haven't been reading this forum much.
You've got that right, doug. I've read all Brandon's books so far and completely missed that Wit/Hoid was a recurring character. (Shades of Robin Hobb, but much more subtle?) I love it that Brandon writes for us all, those who love to study and compare and decipher hidden messages and those of us who just like a good story with a few unanswered questions. I am entertained reading random Time-Waster viewpoints and theories and I laugh at the things I missed, but there is still a lot of enjoyment to be had in letting the story unfold as Brandon reveals things.
I think his reveals will be a lot more satisfying and methodical that Jordan's ever were. I am not kidding you: I could care less who killed Asmodean at this point!
-
I think his reveals will be a lot more satisfying and methodical that Jordan's ever were. I am not kidding you: I could care less who killed Asmodean at this point!
LOL, you know what, your coming out and saying it has made me realize that I agree with you. It just doesn't really seem all that important, and the only reason it's become so infamous is that Jordan said it should be obvious, and nobody can figure it out.
-
So true, Ryos. I feel that some of the pure pleasure of reading is missed by those who obsess over certain minute details. But I confess to jealousy of the kind of mind that can naturally keep track of those things. :)
So glad Time Wasters is back! Just found out this morning.
-
**** On topic Towers of Midnight Spoilers *******
Well, in point of fact, we know who killed Asmodean. It was Graendel. They dropped more than enough hints in Towers of Midnight for 99.99% of the fans to figure it out on their own. For the absolute nuts, they included an entry in the glossary stating it outright.
I never cared much, but Graendel always seemed to be the best candidate, simply because there were no decent arguments against her (and what little circumstantial evidence there was pointed to her). But seriously, I stopped paying attention years ago. I was just curious about the fan reaction after realizing it had finally been revealed. As Jordan tried to say many times, though, the answer was extremely mundane. This disappointed fans, but they really should have listened to the author :).
-
***** ToM spoiler in answer *****
Well I know that now, Happy! And I even got it at the first mention of how many Forsaken Graendal may have had a hand in killing, I think in the prologue? By the second mention, I was sure. But I missed lots of other stuff.
I did create my very first WOT loony theory, though! Read all about it on Dragonmount (I'm Princess of Pie in the Nakomi thread). You should all be very proud of me.
What about JoeC? Check in, kiddo!
-
Long time no see everyone!! Sooo sorry but I've been very busy. I finished ToM a few weeks ago actually but I haven't been able to scrape together time to come here and talk about it! Almost forgot about this thread! Happy to see I've still got some loyal followers. Okay here we go....
Wow I loved this book! Brandon has done such a great job of continuing this story faithfully while at the same time incorporating his own style into the book! I've been to some of the forums at Dragonmount and some of the RJ die hards dislike Brandon's style as they feel he's made the characters too "agreeable" with eachother. I kind of like this though, because the constant bickering and infighting got really old. These people are out to save the world and they argue over some of the stupidest things. I think it's very important for the progression of the story that the characters start to compromise with eachother more (Rand and Cadsuane, Mat and the Aes Sedai etc.)
I enjoy Brandon's pacing a lot more than RJ's also. Don't get me wrong, I've truly enjoyed all these book up until now, it's just that RJ's tendency to go on and on about peoples clothing in paragraphs that were way too long gave me a headache sometimes. On the flip side there are a few things from RJ's style that I miss. For example, the Aes Sedai don't seem as big of an authority as they once were. Seems like their brick wall of pride has been taken down a notch, specifically Cadsuane. Before BS took over she was absolutely unshakeable. Everything she said was 100% right and she never displayed too many human emotions like surprise or uncertainty. That gave her an air of invincibility and wisdom that it was comforting when she was around. That's not there as much anymore, but I still like her.
Onto the book!
-First off, I did not pick up the hint that Graendal killed Asmodean. Not until reading the forums afterwards did I see that. At least that's solved!! FINALLY lol. Although it is a bit anti climactic, I'd still be interested to know why exactly she did it. Yes he betrayed them, kind of, but Graendal doesn't seem like the type to go personally assassinate someone. And nobody felt a female channeling when she did this?? Anyway, it was good to see her alive as I was hoping her ambiguous "death" in TGS wasn't the last we've heard of her. But ooooh, she's in a wee bit of trouble now!!
-Pardon my French, but I thought it was pretty badass of Rand to walk right into the White Tower without a drop of fear and announce he was going to break the seals. I honestly don't know why he'd do that though. Wouldn't the Dark One be immediately released once they're all broken?? Shouldn't he wait until EVERYONE was right in front of Shayol Ghul to do that?? Anyways, I like the new Rand. After his big change at the end of TGS I've been looking forward to having Rand who wasn't crazy and hearing voices but was instead of sound mind, in touch with his emotions but in control of them, and ready to strike the final blow. I wished there was more of him in this book, he kind of took a back seat to everyone else. Would also have liked to have seen him in action more. But I'm sure there will be plenty of that in the next book. The scene in Maradon was VERY cool. Everything leading up to it also.
-The whole storyline with Perrin and his army ALMOST battling Galad and the Whitecloaks at first went on too long. I really thought it was going to happen and that it would be such a waste of valuable fighters from either side. I was glad they came to a conlusion, and the whole trial thing didn't go on too long at all. I was finally glad to see Morgase's secret revealed and her reunited with her son. (I've been waiting for that to happen! lol) Thankfully they have reluctantly joined forces and will fight side by side at the Last Battle.
-The whole section of the book dealing with Egwene and the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders vs. Mesaana and Black Ajah/ Perrin vs. Slayer/ Gawyn vs. Blood Knives left me breathless!! Hooooly crap that was awesome. Kudos to BS for putting that together so well!! Where do I start?!? lol
1) I'd been waiting to see Mesaana in action. This was all very well done. The battle with the Black Ajah was great as Egwene showed her superiority in Telarinriohd ( bad spelling I know) Although it looks like Perrin could teach her a thing or two about dream world powers. I laughed when he said "They're just weaves, Egwene." And brushed them off. But I digress. I've been waiting for Katerine to get hers btw. The whole switcheroo fake out with her and Mesaana surprised me. But Egwene really owned this scene when she broke Mesaana's mind like that! Awesome. Come to find out she was Danelle in the White Tower all along. Never guessed it, but over at the WOT FAQ I guess Danelle had been a popular choice. How am I suppose to guess?! There's so many characters in these books! lol Those people go over these books with a fine tooth comb for God's sake!
2) Perrin's battle with Slayer was everything I wanted it to be. R.I.P. Hopper.... very sad. The whole game with the dreamspike and hopping as far as the dome would allow made for some really good action. Perrin has really developed his powers in the dream world, but I still feel he was overmatched by Slayer. I'm not sure exactly who Slayer is and what his deal is. I know his name is Isam and it's revealed he works specifically for Graendal (although who will he work for now???) How did he get to be so powerful in the dream world and why does he spend so much time there?? Well, he is still alive and I eagerly await the next time him and Perrin do battle.
3) I really liked the Blood Knives (have they been in any other book??) I honestly thought Gawyn was toast there for a moment but he really showed warrior spirit and cunning by making the room dark and basically fighting sounds. He took their advantage away, although their advantage turned out to be terengal rings they were wearing. He has three now, and I wonder where that plotline will go. Happy to see him and Egwene finally together!!
-Now Mat (still my favorite character all along) sure had a hell of a lot to do in this book! Hell he made the cover!! lol First off, I'll say his decision to face the gholam was one that made me jump out of my seat. I always knew he'd have to do it but I never knew how he'd actually defeat the gholam. The fight scene was brilliant, surrounding the two with lamps and Mat's true anger at the creature. Very exciting, and arguably one of the most terrible deaths imaginable. (Being an immortal creature.... falling in a void forever?? that sucks dude) I've been enjoying additions to Mat's character that are clearly BS hallmarks (tipping his hat in certain scenes... a few lines of dialogue I know came from Brandon)
Tower of Ghenjei sequence was the 2nd biggest highlight of the book (the first is listed above) How great it was to see Moiraine again. I honestly missed her. She was such a driving force in the early books. She was their Gandalf. God it seems so long ago she disappeared... Fires of Heaven was it?? I very much look forward to seeing the other characters reactions to her return. Specifically Rand and Lan. My guess is that she is one of the ones who has to wield Callandor with Rand. From what I've read on the internet that's a popular assessment.
Poor Mat. He got his eyeball ripped out!! Half the light of the world. I never put it together. I typically avoided WOT forums in the past other than this one, but from what I've read recently that was something many people were expecting! Yikes those Aalfinn and Ealfinns are creepy. That was a hell of an action scene. Noal as Jain Farstrider...again something that the WOT fanatics picked up on earlier that I never did until it was revealed in the book! But I suppose that's the best way!! Now I'm curious, Lanfear came through with Moiraine also. I imagine they both continued their battle until the snakes and foxes imprisoned them or captured them somehow. It was said that Lanfear was killed because they fed off of her too much. But in the book it says someone came and got her.... or her body. I imagine this to be Moridin. But how did he get there?? Why didn't the snakes and foxes capture him?? Does the Dark One have power over them?? Or some kind of truce?? This left me a little confused!
-Props to Elayne in her scene with the Black Ajah. Everything from disguising herself as Mesaana to the fight with all of them was very exciting. This is a prime example of taking a character you never expected to be in the action.....but then you put her there. She's pregnant with twins and is now queen so I just expected all her scenes to be political mumbo jumbo and filler. This was interesting to me and kind of gave me a sense that all the balls are in the air and nobody is safe.
-Where/who is Demadred?? I don't even recall him being in any of the books. I thought he was Taim, but from what I've read online RJ said that's not true. I'm only left to believe he is someone in the Seanchan hierarchy.
-Where is Loial?? I miss that guy. I don't even remember where he went!
-Padan Fain..... oooh I can't wait for you to get yours pal. I don't know yet who's going to give it to you! lol
-Moghedian and Cyndane/Lanfear.... are they relegated to just standing besides Moridin whenever he appears anywhere?? Hopefully they have a more expanded role in the next book. The next book will be the last book so I'd say it's time to let them loose!! I'm sure Graendal will wind up mindtrapped too.
Whew!! My hands hurt again!! I know I haven't covered all the bases as there was a lot that happened in this book and even the things I addressed were very much shortened versions of what happened. Overall I will say that I was very happy with this book! My real only complaint is that I have to wait another year for the next and final volume! They wrapped up a lot of plot lines in this book but I am anxious for a few more to be wrapped up. I want to see Moiraine reunited with all the old characters and to see what her part is to play in the Last Battle. Mostly I just want to see the last battle!! lol I've been through 13 books to get here so it better not be just a chapter or two!!!
Thank you guys for keeping this thread alive. I eagerly await responses from my regulars, especially douglas and mtbikemom. I know there's plenty more to discuss and I would love to hear your angles on things....... or just the entire book in general. Being long time fans, what is your impression of Brandon's continuation of the story. I mean there are clear differences between his and RJ's style, but what are the positives/negatives to this in your opinion?? I would be very interested to know.
Thank you again for keeping this thread alive. Hope you guys had a great Christmas and a wonderful New Years!! Talk to you soon! Yes I'm back! I'll try to make more time to visit and interact with the posters here!!!
-
Pardon my French, but I thought it was pretty badass of Rand to walk right into the White Tower without a drop of fear and announce he was going to break the seals. I honestly don't know why he'd do that though. Wouldn't the Dark One be immediately released once they're all broken?? Shouldn't he wait until EVERYONE was right in front of Shayol Ghul to do that??
The bore was open from the time it was made up until when Lews Therin sealed it, and the Dark One was not able to break out during that time. I understand the War of the Shadow lasted several years. His influence over the Pattern will increase when the seals are broken, but I don't think he's able to break out just yet.
Where/who is Demadred?? I don't even recall him being in any of the books. I thought he was Taim, but from what I've read online RJ said that's not true. I'm only left to believe he is someone in the Seanchan hierarchy.
He's showed up in a couple Forsaken meetings, and he talked to the Dark One at Shayol Ghul once (in Lord of Chaos I believe); that's the last we've heard of him unless I'm mistaken.
I've always thought RJ gave Aes Sedai answers to the question of whether or not Taim is Demandred. I don't remember the exact wording, but there were a few quirks in it that makes me think he was misdirecting us with an intentionally misleading truth. This is my personal theory and doesn't seem to be shared by many others in the fandom.
Where is Loial?? I miss that guy. I don't even remember where he went!
He went back to Stedding Shangtai with one of his parents (I forget which) and his fiancé. The opening quote in TofM is from him. We are given to understand that he will play a pivotal role in convincing the Ogier to stick around in this world, instead of pulling out dolphin style with a "So long, and thanks for all the...well, huh, actually thanks for nothing you bunch of jerks."
Edit: A comment that doesn't specifically relate to your post. I was at first quite sad that Moiraine was so drained of Power coming out. Then I realized that she's suffered a loss of power similar to that suffered by Siuan and Leane, which has a really nice symmetry to it. Those two were able to parley their loss into an advantage, and I have no doubt Moiraine is capable of the same.
-
Pardon my French, but I thought it was pretty badass of Rand to walk right into the White Tower without a drop of fear and announce he was going to break the seals. I honestly don't know why he'd do that though. Wouldn't the Dark One be immediately released once they're all broken?? Shouldn't he wait until EVERYONE was right in front of Shayol Ghul to do that??
The bore was open from the time it was made up until when Lews Therin sealed it, and the Dark One was not able to break out during that time. I understand the War of the Shadow lasted several years. His influence over the Pattern will increase when the seals are broken, but I don't think he's able to break out just yet.
This is a really good point, and something I suspect will be addressed in the last book.
As Verin pointed out, we don't really know what the Dark One wants with the world or how much he can influence it. There's a lot of speculation out there. I'm not in a camp, because I suspect we don't have enough knowledge to know :). The one thing I do believe for certain is that he's lying to the Forsaken, except perhaps to Ishamael.
-
Wow I loved this book!
Why, I ask myself, do many of us enjoy JoeC's commentaries, questions and impressions so much? Speaking for myself, I look forward to these more than the posts from certain hypercritical individuals who shall remain nameless. The quote above encapsulates it, I think. It's the pure joy of discovery and the way JoeC enjoys this story as much as anyone. It's also his fresh perspective which probably reflects the average young reader and his humility in receiving lots of opinions and corrections with a seemingly open mind and sweet spirit.
I enjoy Brandon's pacing a lot more than RJ's also.
I had the pleasure and privilege of spending some time with Brandon and Harriet a year ago and two things he said still reverberate in my brain. Firstly, Brandon claimed that everything he had read on forums about who everyone thought wrote which parts of The Gathering Storm. . . were wrong! That means that those scenes where Mat was portrayed in a manner that dismayed so many were probably written by RJ., who also wrote the Tower of Ghenjei scenes, I'm pretty sure Brandon said. Hmmmm . . . . We all need to be careful with judgments about things like pacing and style, although the overall pacing seems better as does the pacing within each scene.
Harriet and the other Team Jordan members must have a lot to do with some of these decisions, too. Brandon's mark is obvious to anyone who has read all the books, but just what is him and what is RJ seems to be a tricky guess. We must remember that Jim Rigney was very ill when he wrote some of his last scenes and notes and there are errors and inconsistencies in what he left. (So blogged Brandon recently.) I can't even imagine how difficult it was to create these last three books in light of a whole team of editors and fans who dissect every small mistake and every perceived change.
Also, Brandon's least favorite character to write was Cadsuane. Harriet and I both looked a bit askance at that and I'm glad to hear that you like Cadsuane, too. She has always been one of my favorite Aes Sedai; sniffing, tsking, frowning, spankings and all.
-First off, I did not pick up the hint that Graendal killed Asmodean. Not until reading the forums afterwards did I see that. At least that's solved!! FINALLY lol. Although it is a bit anti climactic, I'd still be interested to know why exactly she did it.
Good point! Another thing Brandon said was that not all plot threads will be resolved and not all questions will be answered. The very most interesting thing he said (just after one of his signings) was that some of the resolutions were not at all how he would have written them, and some not even much to his liking. I bet he won't answer my question, if I ever get to ask him, for more details on that score! He is too respectful to the late Mr. Jordan.
-The whole section of the book dealing with Egwene and the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders vs. Mesaana and Black Ajah/ Perrin vs. Slayer/ Gawyn vs. Blood Knives left me breathless!! Hooooly crap that was awesome. Kudos to BS for putting that together so well!! Where do I start?!? lol
Again, pure JoeC joy. In this world of cynicism and hyper-analysis, this is a breath of fresh air, don't you agree?
-
I've always thought RJ gave Aes Sedai answers to the question of whether or not Taim is Demandred. I don't remember the exact wording, but there were a few quirks in it that makes me think he was misdirecting us with an intentionally misleading truth. This is my personal theory and doesn't seem to be shared by many others in the fandom.
It's hard to accept that Taim is simply who he says he is. The depth of his sinister nature just screams "major bad guy!"
Edit: A comment that doesn't specifically relate to your post. I was at first quite sad that Moiraine was so drained of Power coming out. Then I realized that she's suffered a loss of power similar to that suffered by Siuan and Leane, which has a really nice symmetry to it. Those two were able to parley their loss into an advantage, and I have no doubt Moiraine is capable of the same.
Nice observation!
-
Edit: A comment that doesn't specifically relate to your post. I was at first quite sad that Moiraine was so drained of Power coming out. Then I realized that she's suffered a loss of power similar to that suffered by Siuan and Leane, which has a really nice symmetry to it. Those two were able to parley their loss into an advantage, and I have no doubt Moiraine is capable of the same.
Nice observation!
Ryan I'm not sure it really qualifies as symmetry given that Siuane, Leanne and Moiraine were in fact members of a single cabal rather than opponents. It does clear the way for her to become the head of the new 'kin' auxiliary however. But the whole thing begins to have the flavor of a kung-fu theatre flick when ANYONE who really has any power and stands up to big bad, has to limp away dead or diminished. It is a recipe for closing the book with a whimper rather then the roar it deserves.
Sorry to hijack your post Bikemon.
-
Edit: A comment that doesn't specifically relate to your post. I was at first quite sad that Moiraine was so drained of Power coming out. Then I realized that she's suffered a loss of power similar to that suffered by Siuan and Leane, which has a really nice symmetry to it. Those two were able to parley their loss into an advantage, and I have no doubt Moiraine is capable of the same.
Nice observation!
Ryan I'm not sure it really qualifies as symmetry given that Siuane, Leanne and Moiraine were in fact members of a single cabal rather than opponents. It does clear the way for her to become the head of the new 'kin' auxiliary however. But the whole thing begins to have the flavor of a kung-fu theatre flick when ANYONE who really has any power and stands up to big bad, has to limp away dead or diminished. It is a recipe for closing the book with a whimper rather then the roar it deserves.
Sorry to hijack your post Bikemon.
Symmetry is in the eye of the beholder, Renoard. ;)
Have you ever read one of Brandon's books? Of course you have. Is there really any chance that a whimper is even possible in one of his famous avalanche endings? Color me optimistic.
To answer JoeC's question about my overall impressions of ToM, I was really ready to enjoy this book and I read it rather slowly in order to savor it. A few things did bother me (like Rand's Alan Alda soliloquy and some Sanderson modernisms), but I don't recall a big sluggish section like in TGS. I loved Rand's presence bringing abundance in the orchard, I loved Gawyn and Berelain getting all twitterpated and I especially loved the big fight in TAR. I am intrigued by Nakomi (who visits Avhienda before Rhuidean) and am hoping she is more important than she seemed. I will keep my loony theory about her to myself for now. Since I missed Loial's letter at the very beginning, I enjoyed discovering it and reading it in the end. Kind of a treat.
-
*********************obviously some spoilers below.....*****************
I'm not sure exactly who Slayer is and what his deal is. I know his name is Isam and it's revealed he works specifically for Graendal (although who will he work for now???) How did he get to be so powerful in the dream world and why does he spend so much time there?? Well, he is still alive and I eagerly await the next time him and Perrin do battle.
Slayer and Isam are 2 different people yet on in the same. Isam is Lan's cousin who was caught in the blight and combined with Slayer somehow. When he is in the dream world he is Slayer when he steps out of the dream world he becomes Isam. Perrin has pointed out they smell different too, though they both have an evil smell. isam and Slayer also do not dream themselves into the dream world, they can literally step in and out of it, but as demonstrated while trying to kill one of the main characters (i think it was rand?) they don't have much control in stepping out into the right spot as he killed innocent random people. Graendal also never owned him, moridin was loaning him to her, i think he is more of just a high ranking dark friend the forsaken can control in the chain of command.
Now I'm curious, Lanfear came through with Moiraine also. I imagine they both continued their battle until the snakes and foxes imprisoned them or captured them somehow. It was said that Lanfear was killed because they fed off of her too much. But in the book it says someone came and got her.... or her body. I imagine this to be Moridin. But how did he get there?? Why didn't the snakes and foxes capture him?? Does the Dark One have power over them?? Or some kind of truce?? This left me a little confused!
Most people agree that is was most likely Moridin, or at a minimum someone who represented Moridin's interest. She was most definitely still alive when he got her it's how come Cynade(spelling)/Lanfear has reduced strength now. We can tell she wasn't there to long though as they say she is still as powerful as most of the female forsaken, just weaker than she used to be. As for how he got there, it's debated he could have entered through the tower but A lot think (including me) he went through the doorway in TEAR, when mat tried to leave through that doorway it was also destroyed, so someone destroyed it. The dark one should not have power over them, it has been stated before that even asking questions relating to him make their world unstable, they seem to be completely neutral in the war. If Moridin went through the door-frame they could not hurt him, through the tower...well that would take some explaining.
Where/who is Demadred?? I don't even recall him being in any of the books. I thought he was Taim, but from what I've read online RJ said that's not true. I'm only left to believe he is someone in the Seanchan hierarchy.
Most people think he is the king that Mat helped out (Murandy i think). Well actually the band helped while mat was in ebou Dar. It would be consistent with his personality, the way he is said to fight, and the fact he kept saying he would blind side them, attack from within etc. I used to believe this but I'm not as sure know, i can't help but wonder if he's instead connected to the Caemlyn invasion and that would be how he attack from within by setting p a base there, most still think he's the King of Murandy though.
extras Cyndane/Lanfear - I'm sure she'll have a very important part to play just by this quote "He sought calmness, but he could not find it. Instead,, he felt hatred, concern, and -like a seething viper within him - desire." I'm sure Moridin or someone is baiting him using he newly found calmness and love, after all he did love her once, i will be very interested to see this story line i think it has a bigger part to play than most of us think.
Since I don't think I've posted on this thread or said this: Thank you JoeC for all your post, I've kept up with and read them as you did your read and they were wonderful, especially the ones on books 8,9 and 10 as i skipped them in my re-reads and used what you said as a reminder ;)
-
Update, correction about slayer: I messed this up actually, slayer is the name given to Luc and Isam as one.
Luc :Tigraine's brother. He disappeared into the Blight in 971 NE and is presumed dead. His sign is an acorn. He is one facet of Slayer. Looks enough like Lan to be his brother.
Isam: Son of Lain and Breyan. Cousin to Lan. He is one facet of Slayer.
This also makes him Rands and Lans cousin
# When the Trolloc hoards overrun Malkier, Breyan flees with the infant Isam and they are never seen again. (TEotW,Ch47)
# According to the Dark Prophecy, Luc meets Isam in the Mountains of Dhoom. One lives and one dies but both are. Luc and Isam are merged into a single being and given special powers by the Great Lord. (TGH,Ch7, WH,Ch22)
WH,Ch22 - He freely switches personalities between Luc and Isam in both the real world and Tel'aran'rhiod. Also as stated in WH, CH22 only the Great Lord and Chosen can command him.
Sorry about my post, i was completely wrong there. He is always Slayer, but he can choose to be Isam or Luc when he steeps into the world of dreams. It was Rand and Min he was trying to kill too.
Btw if you ever want more information http://encyclopaedia-wot.org is a GREAT reference for anything you can imagine WOT related.