Timewaster's Guide Archive
General => Rants and Stuff => Topic started by: Miyabi on November 03, 2008, 11:43:10 PM
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So a friend was online and found this and I'm too dumbfounded to even have a response.
(http://i38.tinypic.com/dwz1xc.jpg)
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I agree Miyabi, I share the "too dumbfounded to have a response" feeling.
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Its not too surprising. I mean its a little surprising to see that the paper actually printed that letter but not that someone feels that way. I'm not really to taken aback to respond I just don't think someone like that is worth it.
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Just more evidence about what I why I was frustrated in the 'Are you Serious?' thread.
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Uhhh....my head hurts just reading that. Almost as much as reading this.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3174/3000374115_0953259fa3_o.jpg)
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The first one fails to understand that atheism is a religious movement.
The second one is a simple straw-man argument, and a weak one at that.
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The first one needs to get its facts straight. Atheists believe in the lack of a supreme entity, so that makes it a belief system. If Alice Shannon really wanted to pick on a non-believer, she should have picked on agnostics (hey, that's me!). What "agnostic" means can vary, but quite simply, it means that supernatural powers or a God cannot be proven or disproven. Agnostics are different than atheists, because atheists believe; agnostics do not subscribe to any particular belief (that, at least, is my form of agnosticism).
This is reason enough for me to disregard Ms. Shannon's letter--she doesn't have her facts straight. Also, she seems to believe that religion is only limited to Christian denominations by only mentioning "Baptist, Catholics, and Methodists". It's not like, hey, there are these other big religions like Judaism, Hindi, Buddhism, and Islam. That would just be silly to mention those.
I'm not even going to touch the prayer in school comment except to say that there are these wonderful things called private schools. Please, I'd love some scientific evidence to say that prayer being in those schools makes them more valuable to society. Convince me, please.
The second one seems it inconceivable that things over millions of years can't change drastically. No one can comprehend the true vastness that a million years entails.
Also, the letter definitely displays his ignorance on the subject of evolution. I aided teaching Life Science to 7th graders when I was in High School, and for the last time, things do not decide to become other things! Whales cannot just choose to develop wings (I actually spent twenty minutes discussing that one), and monkeys did not just suddenly choose to be humans. All evolution means is "common ancestry". Sheesh.
I'm rather peeved at this person, so I'm going to say something extra mean: it's unfortunate God didn't give him some logic.
Sigh.
I don't mind people with religious viewpoints--in fact, I've had many discussions about such things and they were always civil, rational endeavors. Ignorance, on the other hand, is inexcusable.
Maybe I should write a letter explaining how ignorance and hatred is destroying America, just because it would be humorous to see people enraged.
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What "agnostic" means can vary, but quite simply, it means that supernatural powers or a God cannot be proven or disproven.
I'm afraid that's a little too specific: you have just described what "strong agnostic" means. Agnostic, in its more general (as well as literal) sense, simply means that one does not know whether or not supernatural stuff exists, or what nature it may have. Strong agnostics believe that one can not know, whereas weak agnostics believe that it may be possible to know, but they simply do not yet know themselves.
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Chaos, I think you put a bit too much effort into responding to those newspaper articles. Maybe if there was someone on the forum who actually would write what the people who wrote those articles wrote then there would have been some point, but I think the basic idea here was to laugh and point fingers.
Not that I think laughing and pointing fingers is very nice, but I do think both those letters are pretty ludicrous. I think the funniest part though is the headline: "Reader voices strong opinion on atheists." Now there's a headline writer who knew this letter was comedy gold.
Honestly—I think the country would be better if more people would believe in God. But the answer is not to kick atheists out—the answer is for religious people to live good lives and share their beliefs with their neighbors.
I also personally believe that there was no reproduction or death on this earth until the fall of Adam and Eve—which I am inclined to believe was rather more literal than figurative—and thus I don't think evolution happened the way people think it happened. However, evolution is a perfectly fine theory and genetic relationships cannot be denied. So there's the third option—evolution happened somehow during the spiritual creation that God did before he did the physical creation. This is my personal theory at the moment. It doesn't explain everything, but it's the best way I can think of to reconcile things. However, as for whether or not evolution happened—I really don't care. There is no point in trying to scientifically prove it did not happen, because my belief doesn't have anything to do with science and is a religious belief. Anything else (such as where fossils came from) can easily be explained by hand-waving.
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I qualify as a Buddhist/weak agnostic. Buddhism isn't a "religion" so much as it is a perspective. It's all about learning to see and consider every perspective and to be less materialistic. (Unless you become a monk, then you're basically a religion.
Ook, I agree with you to a point. Not necessarily believing in God, but believing in respecting others and abstaining from violence. (Which are both taught in Christianity as well as many other religions.)
I also believe that a religion can be right for a person, but no religion can be right for everyone and that if there is a God or Gods then they will reward you for being a good hearted person, not only if you completely devote yourself to one denomination. There is too much happenstance in the world for that to be expected.
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Various religious organizations require differing levels of commitment from their adherents and priests. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints requires a rather high level of commitment from members. Most Buddhist schools do not. However, there are Christians who take Christianity as more of a perspective than a religion as you take Buddhism as more of a perspective than a religion; this is not inherent to the religion itself so much as it is a matter of personal commitment, I'd think. Christianity is one religion. Buddhism is another religion. Your own level of commitment to or agreement with that religion is up to you.
Of course, I'm trying to explore nebulous lines such as these over in the nascent School of Relosophy at Wikiversity. Feel free to join me.
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Chaos, I think you put a bit too much effort into responding to those newspaper articles. Maybe if there was someone on the forum who actually would write what the people who wrote those articles wrote then there would have been some point, but I think the basic idea here was to laugh and point fingers.
Yes, I was doing a very poor job of trying to laugh and point fingers. I wanted to explain why those were so stupid.
Sorry... right now I have some weird stuff going on in my life, so I'm in a far more serious mood than is healthy for me. So:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
/me points fingers at the morons.
There we go. Much better :D
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I am officially thread-hijacking.
This thread is now about muffins.
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Of course, I'm trying to explore nebulous lines such as these over in the nascent School of Relosophy at Wikiversity. Feel free to join me.
My definition of religion is/was a bit confined. I wasn't allowing it to expand and include just beliefs. I was specifying it to systems of worship. ha ha. I spent way too long taking debate and nebulous views with certain concepts takes more thought than it used to. xD
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*sigh*
It always amazes me that people can make such strong statements seemingly without thinking any of it through.
It is people like that who truly make us Christians look like idiots...
:-[ <-- too depressed to laugh :D
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I love muffins.
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Don't be too upset about it. I bet I could find at least two anti-religion articles that are just as absurd. The ironic thing about atheists is that they all share a belief, which is that there is no divine power. They have in effect become a religious organization. Remember that 49% of the population is below average, so nobody should be terribly surprised when they see stupidity get noticed. Prepare yourself, Miyabi, this will not be the most ridiculous thing you see in your life, I guarantee it. I don't know if you've heard the old saying that an intelligent person only believes half what he/she hears or sees? These articles prove that statement.
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The funny thing is...I'm a weak atheist (not excluding possibility of a god but I do not believe in one - I won't be calling anyone wrong for choosing to have faith in a deity though). My husband is agnostic. We do not announce these choices in public.
A good lot of people simply assume that we are whatever sect they are. I've somehow passed for Baptist and Catholic several times - not sure how that happened. I've also been taken for a couple varieties of Jewish.
I find it extremely ignorant and telling when people voice opinions that atheism or agnosticism are, in any way, to blame for anything. What is truly to blame is the ignorance and intolerance from which those who are writing this drivel spring. I find this amusing because such intolerance is detailed and denounced as a crime, sin or fatal failing in just about any theology.
I personally think (that with regards to the whole trumped up religion vs science silliness) that people who believe that religion and evolution actually clash are the most hilariously stupid people I've ever been cursed with the knowledge of. Depending on the translation, even the Bible doesn't necessarily claim that creation was from nothing nor that it took only a week...nor does it claim to be a complete and definitive chronicle of it. It was ultimately written by humans and humans are, by any definition, imperfect beings.
There is room enough in this world for any and all tolerant people and tolerant belief systems. Those which are intolerant ultimately have no redeeming value and are the true cause of all of our ills.
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The funny thing is...I'm a weak atheist (not excluding possibility of a god but I do not believe in one - I won't be calling anyone wrong for choosing to have faith in a deity though). My husband is agnostic. We do not announce these choices in public.
A good lot of people simply assume that we are whatever sect they are. I've somehow passed for Baptist and Catholic several times - not sure how that happened. I've also been taken for a couple varieties of Jewish.
I find it extremely ignorant and telling when people voice opinions that atheism or agnosticism are, in any way, to blame for anything. What is truly to blame is the ignorance and intolerance from which those who are writing this drivel spring. I find this amusing because such intolerance is detailed and denounced as a crime, sin or fatal failing in just about any theology.
I personally think (that with regards to the whole trumped up religion vs science silliness) that people who believe that religion and evolution actually clash are the most hilariously stupid people I've ever been cursed with the knowledge of. Depending on the translation, even the Bible doesn't necessarily claim that creation was from nothing nor that it took only a week...nor does it claim to be a complete and definitive chronicle of it. It was ultimately written by humans and humans are, by any definition, imperfect beings.
There is room enough in this world for any and all tolerant people and tolerant belief systems. Those which are intolerant ultimately have no redeeming value and are the true cause of all of our ills.
I agree vehemently with those sentiments.
A lot of that intolerance--dare I say?--comes from religious exclusivism and failure to see other belief systems. Religious exclusivism has always caused conflict since... well, religion, I think.
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Muffins are definitely tasty.
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Don't be too upset about it. I bet I could find at least two anti-religion articles that are just as absurd. The ironic thing about atheists is that they all share a belief, which is that there is no divine power. They have in effect become a religious organization. Remember that 49% of the population is below average, so nobody should be terribly surprised when they see stupidity get noticed. Prepare yourself, Miyabi, this will not be the most ridiculous thing you see in your life, I guarantee it. I don't know if you've heard the old saying that an intelligent person only believes half what he/she hears or sees? These articles prove that statement.
Oh it for sure isn't the stupidest thing that I have ever seen, it's just that on that day I was left completely daunted that someone could say something that ignorant and stupid. ha ha.
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A lot of that intolerance--dare I say?--comes from religious exclusivism and failure to see other belief systems. Religious exclusivism has always caused conflict since... well, religion, I think.
Religious exclusivism also applies to Atheism: Let's not forget the Khmer Rouge, Communist Party of China, or North Korea, eh?
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A lot of that intolerance--dare I say?--comes from religious exclusivism and failure to see other belief systems. Religious exclusivism has always caused conflict since... well, religion, I think.
Religious exclusivism also applies to Atheism: Let's not forget the Khmer Rouge, Communist Party of China, or North Korea, eh?
Oh, of course. We already established atheism as a religious belief of sorts, so there's no reason why they wouldn't be included.
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I personally LOVE muffins. Lemon ones, with cranberries in them.
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I personally LOVE muffins. Lemon ones, with cranberries in them.
I have never had to the chance to enjoy or even see such a muffin. You will have let in on your secret as to where they are.
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The 7-11 I used to work at out here in California had them, then about two months ago they stopped carrying them. I was saddened and grief-stricken at the loss of such a beautiful species of muffin from my life...
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All I can say is WOW!! The first one was a little scary but the second one was just WOW. ??? The last sentence in the second one is kinda comical.
Bastille
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It appears this thread has been successfully hijacked by muffin connoiseurs.
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I win =).
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Avalon, I bet you could make some by buying a lemon-poppy-seed-muffin mix and sifting out the poppy seeds, then adding cranberries.
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You guys are making me HUNGRY! No fair! :(
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That would be Legen - (wait for it...) - dary!
I think I have a recipe for lemon poppy seed muffins somewhere hereabouts...
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umm... is anyone on the thread prepared to be on track again??? I love muffins though. Someone at my school made a "muffie", a blueberry muffin baked into a pie... i have to tell the Coalition about that!
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probably not, however, this talk of muffins is getting flat. We could talk about cookies...
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hmm... maybe i could make a cookiemuffie! A blueberry muffin filling, pie crust on the outside, with a cookie on top! Amazing!
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Please don't tempt me to lock this thread.
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sorry... :'(. Anyway, it was amazing that the person thought that tomatos would just magically transform into watermelons. They don't even know what the theory of evolution is, probably.
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I like any kind of muffin!!! Especially warm ones that just came out of the oven!!! Yum!!!
Bastille
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This sounds like something UtopiaGreen would say.…
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Close. Utopia probably would have said:
Muffins! The next Dan Brown?
and then make a poll with options like:
1.) I love muffins, and Dan Brown! Absolutely!
2.) Muffin? More like Duffin! It'll happen next year!
3.) I don't like muffins, but I love Dan Brown! Not yet!
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Man, I'm almost sad I missed the Utopia phase...
Please don't tempt me to lock this thread.
And Jade, I would be willing to bet that you were tempted to as you were writing this....I could be wrong, but...yeah.
On-topic. Wow. Those are just...wow. Ya gotta love such close-minded individuals. [/sarcasm]
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Reaves–HAHA probably!!!
UtopiaGreen…the terror of all good TWG users…LOL.
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A thread necro just to mention liking Muffins?
Bastille, please read FAQs (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0). You shouldn't necro without something important to say.
You know, I realize now that when I first posted this thread I was angry and simply aghast about how a person could believe what they wrote. However, I now see that I was just as wrong as this person. I mean, that is their belief and they have the right to believe that, even if I don't agree, and there is no reason to not accept them and their beliefs.
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You know, I realize now that when I first posted this thread I was angry and simply aghast about how a person could believe what they wrote. However, I now see that I was just as wrong as this person. I mean, that is their belief and they have the right to believe that, even if I don't agree, and there is no reason to not accept them and their beliefs.
Tell that to the people on the thread about people turning into goats.
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I made a rather snide comment on that thread. LOL. I mean if you honestly think about it it wasn't that long ago that people thought the entire world was flat. *shrugs*
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I made a rather snide comment on that thread. LOL. I mean if you honestly think about it it wasn't that long ago that people thought the entire world was flat. *shrugs*
I'm gonna have to disagree with that statement on two counts; first of all, the ancient Egyptians mathematically calculated that the Earth was round. In the middle ages generally it was only the poor who thought the Earth was flat.
And also: not that long ago? I guess you've never heard of the Flat Earth Society :D :D :D
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm (http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm)
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Point is, if we're trying to be respectful and tolerant of other people's beliefs, let's not limit it to people whose beliefs seem plausible to us.
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That is true Sarah, but I still just can't help making fun of some things. It is just my nature. When it is 100% far-fetched and there is undeniable scientific proof that it is the way it is, it is hard to believe that it is true. "And by scientific I mean results that are VISIBLE and can be physically measured.
My favorite part
Now imagine, if only for the sake of argument, that the person on top and the person on bottom can both manage to remain attracted to the ground "below" them. What would happen if the person on one side decided to visit the other? Since the man at the North Pole has a different idea of what is down and up (and in fact experiences an opposite pull from the Earth's gravity) than the person at the South Pole does, when the denizen of the frozen Arctic visits his Antarctic counterpart, they will experience gravitational pulls exactly opposite of each other! The human from the North Pole will "fall up", never returning to the ground, and will continue falling forever into the deep void of outer space!
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Many of the poor in the Middle Ages thought the earth was round, too. It just wasn't 100% accepted back then like it is now.
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But there wasn't any complete undeniable evidence that supported that claim. So I wouldn't have believed it then either. If there is no evidence to prove or disprove something then I don't believe or not believe. However, if there is undeniable proof, then I believe it. :/
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No proof is undeniable, believe me.
Have you not read DesCartes (an absolute skeptic) or William James (a "radical empiricist")?
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I have not. I should though. It sounds like it would be philosophical.
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Indeed. I rather liked DesCartes, and I'm liking what I've read of James, too.
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Is he French?
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The name sounds French to me.
Actually, come to think of it I believe I used snippets from books of his when I used to debate.
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I'm just asking 'cause the name sounds really familiar.…
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Descartes was French but spent most of his life in the Dutch Republic. (Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descartes))
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I actually find Wikipedia very useful.…