Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Andrew the Great on September 11, 2008, 04:06:12 AM
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Mistborn 3 Ch 2 (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/library/34/Mistborn-3)
Discuss.
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First: Wow.
Second: Reading this epigraph makes me even more convicted it was Rashek who held the power. At this moment, we only know of Vin and Rashek who held the power, and if it's Rashek, then these epigraphs will be sort of a way to show what he did when he held the power. The chances that it is someone else is pretty much nil, because what would be the point? Rashek changed things. He's the one we want to hear more from.
Third: Kandra are frickin' awesome. Other than the awesome points we get to see about how kandra work, there is "the Blessing of Presence". It's capitalized, so maybe we should discuss that further. It's probably really important.
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Okay, third time around, here's what I've got this time . . .
Holding the power did strange things to my mind. In just a few moments, I became familiar with the power itself, with its history, and with the ways it might be used.
Yet, this knowledge was different from experience, or even ability to use that power. For instance, I knew how to move a planet in the sky. Yet, I didn't know where to place it so that it wouldn't be too close, or too far, from the sun.
We know that whomever this Hero of Ages is, they actually held the power of the Well of Ascension. I'm personally going to chalk this up as more evidence of it being Rashek, because it would explain how he messed up the world so bad. For example, he moved the planet closer to the sun, causing the burnlands and making the regions around the poles habitable. (Possibly so he could survive with a capital city right over the Well of Ascension.)
This also leads into why the mist spirit attacked Elend. (Kinda.) If Vin wouldn't have been in such a hurry to save him, she might have had enough time to spend learning her abilities to guess at Ruin. Is the mist spirit perhaps an agent of Ruin? I mean, the deepness has some connection to Ruin, and the mist spirit is connected to the deepness. (Probably. In some fashion.) It could have been getting Vin to try and act without thinking, and maybe it cut Sazed's manuscript to make him tap his metalminds or something. Just some food for thought.
He could have created a set--he was of the Third Generation, which was old, even for a kandra.
Kandra society is very age based, they can breed offspring somehow, and the First Generation I would assume are the ones The Lord Ruler (Supposedly.) created a thousand years ago. This could be how Kandra religion survived, as there are still Kandra from before The Lord Ruler's reign. (Kind of.)
The next paragraph gives us some more inside info on how Kandra work. They do sound very similar to Mistwraiths, with the only difference I can see is the mental choice to discard all of one skeleton and only use one at a time. Perhaps Mistwraiths are just kandra on "vacation?"
But TenSoon had the Blessing of Presence. His mind would not give in easily.
I take it this is why Kandra believe they are of Preservation? It sounds a lot to me like Preservation gives them certain gifts, which would make sense if The Lord Ruler created them out of Preservation. (I can't articulate things properly today, but you get my drift.)
I'm getting lazy now, so I'll just make a small list of some info.
1. Kandra need to eat.
2. Is the gold on the bucket significant? (And curse Mistborn. I will never again be able to hear about a metal anything without thinking . . . "If these guys were fighting Allomancers, they'd be hosed." Especially Kandra. Oh well.)
3. Apparently, acid is the only way to kill a Kandra. We should sell this secret to the Allomancer's for cash and atium.
4.Why would TenSoon risk such a punishment? Has he sniffed out Ruin? Does he know Vin knows how to control Koloss?
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After a rather lengthy conversation with Chaos, we came to a few conclusions/crazy ideas.
Holding the power did strange things to my mind. In just a few moments, I became familiar with the power itself, with its history, and with the ways it might be used.
Yet, this knowledge was different from experience, or even ability to use that power. For instance, I knew how to move a planet in the sky. Yet, I didn't know where to place it so that it wouldn't be too close, or too far, from the sun.
This is the basis for our coolest idea. We theorize that if Vin held the power for even the briefest instant (which she did, before she released it), her mind would have been altered, giving her critical knowledge. Like how hemalurgy and allomancy work, in great detail. However, she also could have not gotten as much because she didn't hold it as long.
Another interesting discussion was that Rashek may have actually been the Hero of Ages. He held the power and gained the knowledge of it. And really, after gaining allomancy and hemalurgy, he was the best equipped to be the hero of ages. Plus he doesn't seem arrogant or angry in the epigraphs (assuming it is him), just sad and tired.
Which brings me to our next discussion. The lord ruler may have left behind clues on how to defeat Ruin. I propose that an excellent location for these clues would be Statlin city. Chaos disagrees. Also, in the MB 3 product description, it says, "Having escaped death at the climax of The Well of Ascension only by becoming a Mistborn himself, Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world." Which seems to support the clues thing. Thoughts?
Also, I will never again laugh when people go into discussions about astronomy and axial tilt of planets. The fact that that particular discussion turned out to be relevant is strangely ironic.
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Actually... I think we got our ideas crossed there. My idea with the Lord Ruler was that, in fact, the Lord Ruler did leave clues behind.
My thought is that the Rashek, at first burning the power, had no idea what he was getting into. He changed things unintentionally, without knowing about the dire, dire consequences. However, notice the difference in tone between the MB3 epigraphs and the Lord Ruler in MB1. There's almost a hesitation in him, directly post-Ascension.
Perhaps his mind had broken into what he turned into later, consumed from the guilt from what he'd done, transforming him into the hard, cold Lord Ruler. However... before that...
During holding the power, he thought he destroyed the Deepness, but he only managed to push it back. No, he burned the power away before he could realize how to defeat Ruin truly. Holding the power could, perhaps, given him the knowledge to do what he needed to do, but he didn't do it properly. It was gone before he knew it. But later--perhaps--maybe he realized the true way to defeat it. To this extent, he placed the Well under Kredik Shaw, so that when the Well came back into power, he could ... finish the fight.
But before that, he probably would have left clues, maybe for his own use (if his metalminds couldn't be trusted). In fact, at Statlin City, there is one of two possibilities: A Clue, or one of these storehouses Elend has been raiding (or both). Notice that I distinctly exclude the possibility of the atium stash being there. This is because, narratively, it wouldn't work. There's a year between MB2 and 3. I'm sure Elend or Vin would've investigated Statlin City in that amount of time. Thus, if they investigated it and found what was there, it would all be off-screen. The atium stash is too big of a plot point to happen off-screen. Thus, it's more likely it's a clue. Or a storehouse. Or both.
I need to elaborate on the Vin knowledge thing. Since reading MB2, I've always wondered how our heroes would learn of Hemalurgy. The Lord Ruler isn't alive to tell it, and Marsh would be more likely to kill them than have a nice conversation about the basis of his power. Now, in our chat online, Andrew brings up the point that clearly, we now have Marsh viewpoints, so we could definitely get a lot of information from there. However, if we are correct (assuming you buy the theory about the earring being Hemalurgically imbued), then Vin will need an understanding of Hemalurgy to release her full potential.
Who would tell her. No Lord Ruler... no Marsh... definitely not any Feruchemists, since Marsh purged the Synod. The list--at least of characters we know of--becomes to... none. Except... Vin, maybe?
My first thought was that perhaps since Vin didn't use the power, she wouldn't get that knowledge. But then I realize that it's the holding of the power that gives you the knowledge (possibly giving Rashek knowledge of Allomancy and Hemalurgy), not the use of it. In fact, if Rashek was consumed by guilt over using the power wrong, well, then Vin actually has it a little better. She only has to be consumed with guilt that she released an almost invincible force of nature (I wonder which shatters the mind more...). Anywho... she still held the power. Which means it is possible that Vin knows the answers already.
We won't know for sure until we get in Vin's viewpoint, but it's a theory all right.
Also, my undeveloped thought is that the Hero need not be someone specific. It could be anyone... even Rashek, but maybe he just didn't use the power right.
Finally, whoever had that conversation about astronomy and axial tilts of planets has my gratitude. I shall never mock such things ever again.
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Not as much disagreement as you might think. I actually am with you on most things (with the exception of Statlin City). I just don't take as much time to worry about phrasing it in a way that's not confusing.
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I think the knowledge fades away once the power is gone. Rashek (or whoever wrote the bump) talks of his experience while using the power, but he may not remember how to do the things he did once the power was gone.
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Not as much disagreement as you might think. I actually am with you on most things (with the exception of Statlin City). I just don't take as much time to worry about phrasing it in a way that's not confusing.
You just must have confused me then :P.
I think the knowledge fades away once the power is gone. Rashek (or whoever wrote the bump) talks of his experience while using the power, but he may not remember how to do the things he did once the power was gone.
That's quite a viable theory. We'll know for sure when we get the book.
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A Clue, or one of these storehouses Elend has been raiding (or both). Notice that I distinctly exclude the possibility of the atium stash being there. This is because, narratively, it wouldn't work. There's a year between MB2 and 3. I'm sure Elend or Vin would've investigated Statlin City in that amount of time. Thus, if they investigated it and found what was there, it would all be off-screen. The atium stash is too big of a plot point to happen off-screen. Thus, it's more likely it's a clue. Or a storehouse. Or both.
i always kind of assumed all the atium went into the well. thats where it got all of its power.
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Atium powering well = no.
Gold lined bucket - The gold is used because it is EXTREMELY non-corrosive so the acid wouldn't eat through the gold and through the bucket.
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I only hope it is Rashek. That would help reveal what he meant when he said, in the end of bk1: "you dont know what i do for you..."
Now that we have come this far. Does anyone have any updated theories on what exactly was it he meant?
I personally think he might have been the only one who could know how to use the power, not really well but better than anyother man. I think that not only was he a Terris man but i believe that his emphasis or specialty was Nature.
Idk. What do you guys think?
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Gold lined bucket - The gold is used because it is EXTREMELY non-corrosive so the acid wouldn't eat through the gold and through the bucket.
Beat me to it. This is why gold was thought to be a "noble metal", because it was immune to acids which would burn through iron or copper or tin.
I like the description of the kandra's physiology... Brandon is always good at providing an example that translates... I've got a much clearer idea now of how they look and move, and it is disgustipatin'. Like super slugs in a skin sack, eewwwwww...
What color are the kandra again, when in this base state?
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The chapter says that kandra are translucent, and I think they might have a slight bluish hue. (From the description of Mistwraiths and the whole Kandra/Koloss cousin deal. Also, did anyone notice that steel/iron lines are also blue? I wonder if it's important.)
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It's possible, though if it is then it's changed since mistborn prime. In MB Prime, steel lines are red. That took some getting used to.
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The chapter says that kandra are translucent, and I think they might have a slight bluish hue. (From the description of Mistwraiths and the whole Kandra/Koloss cousin deal. Also, did anyone notice that steel/iron lines are also blue? I wonder if it's important.)
The blue probably just represents a link to the magic.
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What do you think the LR could have been doing by just being alive to save mankind?
My theory is that it could be like Final Empire Prime, where he connected to one of the powers and controlled it (Ruin) thus preventing it from destroying the world. But in FEP the two sides (effectively Ruin and Preservation) seemed much more connected to the magic system, of which there was only one (with two sides, but the same), instead of three distinct yet connected ones. Still, food for thought.
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I'm more inclined to believe that he held Preservation not Ruin.
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Yes. Imagine if TLR's death is causing the world to slowly return to it's original location? If everything he did was slowly unraveling? I have never looked forward to October like I have this year.
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Yes. Imagine if TLR's death is causing the world to slowly return to it's original location? If everything he did was slowly unraveling? I have never looked forward to October like I have this year.
That would make sense, if you consider that the mists are staying out longer. . . maybe it's because things are getting colder . . .
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What if TLR was both Ruin and Preservation. In the Bump we see that in a moment the ability to change the world was known, what if this is what TLR did? He moved the earth, changed the World, this was the Power of Ruin, Then TLR did what he could to preserve the world, create the Ash Mounts to have ash coat the sky and block out the sun, and all the other things and theories of what he changed or was doing, was it to hold back the Ruin that was unleashed in that first moment of holding the power, and then Preserve what was left?
What if it now continues forward in Ruin? was TLR holding it back? will the Ash Mounts stop or slow?
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Well, in one MB1 annotation, Brandon stated that
I put the Lord Ruler in black and white--rather than just black, as I'd originally planned--to give metaphoric reference to his belief that he is God. He's both black and white--he encompasses all, and controls all. Of course, he's faking. In the mythology of this world, there are two forced--Ruin and Preservation--and he really only touched one of the two powers. But, then, we'll have more on that in later books.
(It's MB1, Chapter Thirty-four, part two, in case you want to take a look about that)
So, that pretty much means he could only have touched one of the powers, not both (hence our endless discussions on the matter).
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Well, in one MB1 annotation, Brandon stated that
I put the Lord Ruler in black and white--rather than just black, as I'd originally planned--to give metaphoric reference to his belief that he is God. He's both black and white--he encompasses all, and controls all. Of course, he's faking. In the mythology of this world, there are two forced--Ruin and Preservation--and he really only touched one of the two powers. But, then, we'll have more on that in later books.
(It's MB1, Chapter Thirty-four, part two, in case you want to take a look about that)
So, that pretty much means he could only have touched one of the powers, not both (hence our endless discussions on the matter).
Chaos, thank 's for the reminder, I have not had the time to read and absorb all of the discussions. The time I can spend is very limited!
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Yeah, it's not easy going through 27 pages of Ruin and Preservation and thirty some pages of the Hemalurgy thread (however, if you ever have free time, I highly recommend you read them).
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Not easy to find free time, with a Job that usually takes up to 60 hours a week 3+ hours of commuting each day, then the whole house ,family and oh yeah sleep, I save most of my free tme for reading, I will try to get through what I can, at least until Mb3 comes out!
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Yeah, you definitely have more time than me. If I get a job on top of my college work, though, then I would pretty much be up into the 80~90 hour range (at least, a full time job).
I feel for you, man. I'd suggest you just wait for MB3 and not have our wild theories potentially ruin the fun. Of course... we DO like new people who can add to our theories...
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In the Bump we see that in a moment the ability to change the world was known, what if this is what TLR did? He moved the earth, changed the World, this was the Power of Ruin, Then TLR did what he could to preserve the world, create the Ash Mounts to have ash coat the sky and block out the sun, and all the other things and theories of what he changed or was doing, was it to hold back the Ruin that was unleashed in that first moment of holding the power, and then Preserve what was left?
What if it now continues forward in Ruin? was TLR holding it back? will the Ash Mounts stop or slow?
I think he did all that changing, yeah. Read Final Empire Prime; that's what I think TLR did.
But without spiraling into another endless discussion about which power he touched, :P I just want to say that the jacket cover says that the Ashmounts are getting more active, and not less. Earthquakes and all that.
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In the Bump we see that in a moment the ability to change the world was known, what if this is what TLR did? He moved the earth, changed the World, this was the Power of Ruin, Then TLR did what he could to preserve the world, create the Ash Mounts to have ash coat the sky and block out the sun, and all the other things and theories of what he changed or was doing, was it to hold back the Ruin that was unleashed in that first moment of holding the power, and then Preserve what was left?
What if it now continues forward in Ruin? was TLR holding it back? will the Ash Mounts stop or slow?
I think he did all that changing, yeah. Read Final Empire Prime; that's what I think TLR did.
But without spiraling into another endless discussion about which power he touched, :P I just want to say that the jacket cover says that the Ashmounts are getting more active, and not less. Earthquakes and all that.
Ahhh, but we also need to remember whereas SOME things were reincarnated into MB there was a lot drawn from other past books as well and they are not the same. ::)
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We know that whomever this Hero of Ages is, they actually held the power of the Well of Ascension. I'm personally going to chalk this up as more evidence of it being Rashek, because it would explain how he messed up the world so bad. For example, he moved the planet closer to the sun, causing the burnlands and making the regions around the poles habitable. (Possibly so he could survive with a capital city right over the Well of Ascension.)
Now here's an interesting thought: what if there's a Well at each pole? If we have a ruin/preservation dichotomy, we could also have them separated on opposite sides of the world. This could also explain how Vin felt that thumping of the well; it was magnetic north. Furthermore, If miyabi is right, and TLR aligned with preservation, we could have an interesting yin/yang like, ruin-in-preservation and preservation-in-ruin thing; the power of preservation keeps ruin imprisoned while the power of ruin keeps preservation imprisoned. (or maybe I'm just making things overly complicated) However, we could also have a habitable landmass on the opposite side of the world. (though I'm inclined to believe that it would have been Ruin'd instead of Preservation'd)
And of course, if the mistborn world (we should start calling it Vinland or Elendland, in the fashion of Randland...wot readers get this) is on the pole (specifically, the north pole, as the Terris mountains were in the north originally) and if darxbane's theory is correct,
Yes. Imagine if TLR's death is causing the world to slowly return to it's original location? If everything he did was slowly unraveling? I have never looked forward to October like I have this year.
then we've got some migration to do. Of course, this would fulfill the whole green-world, blue-sky thing...
Of course, the major issue here is there's no answer to why the mist is kinda killing things...
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I would think that to be a sufficient hole in your thought process. But good theory.
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Well, the link to the north pole was pretty cool, fitting with electromagnetism and all that. It's commendable.
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Agreed I think it was a good theory. The thing is I think we as theorists have a way in getting mid post and then finding a hole in our own theories. We then still post and explain the hole anyway. Not that I dislike this, I find it gives others the tools to expand from our ideas in ways we might not. All in all its good.
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It's good having a realistic assessment of our own theories, lol.
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And of course, if the mistborn world (we should start calling it Vinland or Elendland, in the fashion of Randland...
Vinland doesn't work. It sounds like some sort of viking name or something.... ;)
And Elendland is just weird. No, I think that if we're going to start calling this world something, it's got to be Hamland.
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How can you argue with that? Great character and greater food. You cant go wrong.
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RESOLVED: Mistborn's world is now known as Hamland.
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RESOLVED: Mistborn's world is now known as Hamland.
*cough cough*
Topicality(Definitions) - Mist: a drink of liquor served over cracked ice.
born: possessing from birth the quality, circumstances, or character stated
Mistborn: Something that is possessed of a drunken state from birth.
Ham: an unskilled actor who overacts
land: natural resources as a factor of production.
Hamland: A land that produces many people who can't act.
Whereas drunken people can not act, they simply "ham it up" therefore the world of Mistborn SHOULD be called Hamland as is stated within the resolution.
Inherency - The land withing the world of Mistborn currently has no name. This causes for it's ontological integrity to fall. This is leading to the dehumanization of the people who live in said "country." Human rights violations such as these are bad because they are some of the roots that lead to racism, sexism, ismisms, and all other forms of prejudice.
Harms - By not fixing said problem we will in fact be agreeing with and aiding the degradation of these people. By doing this the T.W.G. will lose the soft power it has with other forum sites, which will lead to the use of hard power. This can ONLY come in the form of HTTP NUKE WAR! Which is bad because lots of IP addresses will suffer greatly and it will cause famine of internet connections, FTP server violations, and Google failure.
Solvency - By giving the land in which these people live a name we make them real. Suddenly they are not just people, they are people. This will cause everyone within the world to be seen as equal by those in other countries, thus giving them a stable ontological state.
When the rest of the world sees that we are supporting such a cause they will see us as a good people and want to trade with us and become affiliated with us, increasing our soft power. By increasing soft power we decrease hard power and thus avoid HTTP NUKE WAR!
Advantage 1 - While making these people more known and helping them to achieve an equal standing within society they will share with those of us on T.W.G. who helped with this. What will they share you ask? The 15th metal! Then we will be super cool.
Advantage 2 - When other people see that we gain so much from helping to bring a culture and people into the light they will want to learn more about cultures that are generally ignored. This will bring about WORLD PEACE!!!!!!!
Ok. . . I'm done.
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Well ok then.
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I would think that to be a sufficient hole in your thought process. But good theory.
I wouldn't call this so much a hole as an unexplained part of the book; I'm not making a comprehensive explanation, just theorizing on one facet of this world. I suspect that the mist killing has to do more with Ruin and TLR's death, rather than changes coming from the Well's power and TLR's death. (While the failure to come up with a good explanation for the mist's behavior is an issue, I would call my theory more "incomplete" than "flawed") (I'm hoping someone else will be able to take this and run with it)
Edit: If I'm right about another Well, we should call it the Well of Descension.
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What about the whole metal lake thing?
I like the idea of there being two wells at each pole, but how would the characters get to the other side?
Also as for what the lord ruler is doing while he's alive, I think that kredik shaw is aprt of it, everytime I read it's descritpion, it pops out at me, with the spires jutting out like a bunch of spikes.
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I would think that to be a sufficient hole in your thought process. But good theory.
I wouldn't call this so much a hole as an unexplained part of the book; I'm not making a comprehensive explanation, just theorizing on one facet of this world. I suspect that the mist killing has to do more with Ruin and TLR's death, rather than changes coming from the Well's power and TLR's death. (While the failure to come up with a good explanation for the mist's behavior is an issue, I would call my theory more "incomplete" than "flawed") (I'm hoping someone else will be able to take this and run with it)
Edit: If I'm right about another Well, we should call it the Well of Descension.
You, actually, can't say that your theory is merely incomplete due to the unanswered questions left for book three. You could however claim that it is a complete meritable theory based on the existing evidence, which makes it as valid as any other thoery based on what we know.
It could very well be flawed, but given that we are only hypothizing, in a sense, it is a complete speculation that, due to its insufficient information, is unable to fully answer some questions.
If you were to recieve that information, then it no longer be your
theory but everyones ( Or, err, the truth of the books) reality... ;D
However, you will be credited for it, that is a different matter. It is the same as Newton and his thoery of gravity, he did not have the suffecient amount of technological advancement to proove what he suspected--or convince the scholarly world--but when Einstien made these theories official
, though they are still Newtons theories--the concept of gravity became everyone's truth.
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RESOLVED: Mistborn's world is now known as Hamland.
*cough cough*
Topicality(Definitions) - Mist: a drink of liquor served over cracked ice.
born: possessing from birth the quality, circumstances, or character stated
Mistborn: Something that is possessed of a drunken state from birth.
Ham: an unskilled actor who overacts
land: natural resources as a factor of production.
Hamland: A land that produces many people who can't act.
Whereas drunken people can not act, they simply "ham it up" therefore the world of Mistborn SHOULD be called Hamland as is stated within the resolution.
Inherency - The land withing the world of Mistborn currently has no name. This causes for it's ontological integrity to fall. This is leading to the dehumanization of the people who live in said "country." Human rights violations such as these are bad because they are some of the roots that lead to racism, sexism, ismisms, and all other forms of prejudice.
Harms - By not fixing said problem we will in fact be agreeing with and aiding the degradation of these people. By doing this the T.W.G. will lose the soft power it has with other forum sites, which will lead to the use of hard power. This can ONLY come in the form of HTTP NUKE WAR! Which is bad because lots of IP addresses will suffer greatly and it will cause famine of internet connections, FTP server violations, and Google failure.
Solvency - By giving the land in which these people live a name we make them real. Suddenly they are not just people, they are people. This will cause everyone within the world to be seen as equal by those in other countries, thus giving them a stable ontological state.
When the rest of the world sees that we are supporting such a cause they will see us as a good people and want to trade with us and become affiliated with us, increasing our soft power. By increasing soft power we decrease hard power and thus avoid HTTP NUKE WAR!
Advantage 1 - While making these people more known and helping them to achieve an equal standing within society they will share with those of us on T.W.G. who helped with this. What will they share you ask? The 15th metal! Then we will be super cool.
Advantage 2 - When other people see that we gain so much from helping to bring a culture and people into the light they will want to learn more about cultures that are generally ignored. This will bring about WORLD PEACE!!!!!!!
Ok. . . I'm done.
Great, now I can't get Kumbayah out of my head! Thanks, Miyabi.
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Great, now I can't get Kumbayah out of my head! Thanks, Miyabi.
How did my pretend first affirmative constructive get Kumbayah stuck in your head?
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I think it was that last line about World Peace.
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Yes, that and the outrageously positive results adding a name to a fantasy world would produce. I just started seeing everyone by a campfire singing and carrying on; dogs hugging cats, sheep and wolves arm and arm. It's just so beautiful. Like a fairy tale.