Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Comatose on August 24, 2008, 08:12:07 PM
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Ok, sorry you guys, I making this a topic. Mainly because, well it's been discussed a little bit in other topics, but we haven't really gotten even remotely close to figuring anything out about it. I am referring of course to the metallic lake discovered by Alendi and Fedik, which Fedik explores, which cause the mist spirit to attack him. Alendi says he never let's Fedik sample the waters (what if Fedik is the hero oooooh ;)). So ya, I just thought I'd start a topic so we could maybe start figuring this out a little. It could be this is where the metal that makes you mistborn come from, some say it's the other 16th metal, but who knows. It's sort of just mentioned in passing, like the piercing were, but a metallic lake near the well of acension. I think that's got to be important.
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OMGSH I just had an epiphany. BUT I have to go and pick up my sister. D: I'll be back in an hour or two and dazzle you with one of my completely impossible theories. ;D
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The lake that Fedik discovered is below us now—I can see it from the ledge. It looks even more eerie from up here, with its glassy—almost metallic—sheen. I almost wish I had let him take a sample of its waters. Perhaps his interest was what angered the mist creature that follows us. Perhaps . . . that was why it decided to attack him, stabbing him with its invisible knife.
Vin and Elend walked up to the pool. Elend knelt quietly beside it, but Vin just stood. Staring at the glittering waters. They were gathered in a small depression in the rock, and they looked thick - like metal. A silvery white, glowing liquid metal.......The mist spirit stood immobile for a moment, then it raised its arm. Something flashed, reflecting the pool's light. "Elend!" Vin screamed, dashing forward as the spirit slashed across Elend's gut.
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But the metal and the well can't be the same, Alendi hadn't reached the well yet, although the description is earily similar. What if... what we know as the well of ascension is something totally different. What if there are two wells, and the other is still in the mountains?
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Someone in this thread is on to something.
Or are you?
No, seriously, it should be obvious that the metal lake is something very important.
And it's not like Reen's obsidian.
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*coughes waiting for your attention*
NOW that I have your attention. Here I go. Now I know usually my theories are long and blah blah blah. This one however, is very simple. It has only a few points.
There are two Wells. One containing Ruin, the other Preservation. This Metal Lake is Preservation's entrapment just like the Well was the thing keeping Ruin at bay. They will have to find the Lake and TAKE it's power in order to save the world. Ruin can happen by itself, therefore it can ravish uncontrolled and cause damage. Preservation however, is trickier and needs to be focused by some sort of utensil, in this case possibly Vin?
That's my epiphany. ha ha. I thought about typing up a few pages just to make you all read a bit before getting to my main point, but I'm too tired today. ha ha.
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Someone in this thread is on to something.
Or are you?
No, seriously, it should be obvious that the metal lake is something very important.
And it's not like Reen's obsidian.
Notice he very clearly does not say the Well is very important...that could mean the Well is different from the lake and we find the Lake is more important now that Ruin has been released.
And btw its a dark, dark day on TWG when we analyze not only the book but Ookla's posts as well...
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Reaves. Your post is completely not thought out. If I say, "The basil is the most important part." That doesn't mean the rest of the stuff in the recipe isn't important. . . Just because he didn't mention it, DOESN'T mean it's not PART of it.
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Someone in this thread is on to something.
Or are you?
No, seriously, it should be obvious that the metal lake is something very important.
And it's not like Reen's obsidian.
Notice he very clearly does not say the Well is very important...that could mean the Well is different from the lake and we find the Lake is more important now that Ruin has been released.
And btw its a dark, dark day on TWG when we analyze not only the book but Ookla's posts as well...
Not necessarily a dark day, but it does mean we have reached a certain fanatic level of fandom...
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Of note is that the well and the lake hold similar material and that both were full. Was there a lake when Vin was drawn to the well?
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also maybe the well that Vin is drawn to conceals an underground lake that TLR concealed with the city of Luthadel
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also maybe the well that Vin is drawn to conceals an underground lake that TLR concealed with the city of Luthadel
Hmm, how would that work? After Vin takes and releases the power, isn't she left lying on the bottom of the well? Surely if it were connected to an underground lake, she would see more metal leaking in somewhere, like a spring? Yeah, I like your idea but I don't quite think it's true.
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Its a well, the water would come up from underground. It wouldn't trickle down from somewhere
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Ah, but liquid metal would travel differently, and this isn't just any old well we're talking about.
From what I remember, Ruin controls the mist spirits. The mist spirit would have tried to attack anyone that tried to get to Preservation first (via the liquid-metal lake) because they want everyone to go to the well with Ruin in it instead. Release Ruin, and thus let him have his fun.
Why was it that Vin could release Ruin? No idea. Maybe only certain people can release Ruin, but anyone could release Preservation. Otherwise, why would the mist spirit attack Elend and Fedik? They'd only have to worry about Vin if the "opening" possibility was equal between the two prisons.
And why are both "Gods" trapped in the first place? They must have been put there by someone. Presumedly, by trapping Ruin first, and in the process having Preservation follow along because of balance or some such thing.
And liquid metal is mercury. For the most part, Brandon has kept to "real" metals. So, unless he's made up something else entirely for this one, that's probably what the liquid metal is. It could have something to do with traps and/or prisons of godly constituents. And who's to say that the stuff in the Well, trapping Ruin, was water? Maybe it was mercury's opposite-twin. A clear metal? Now,that'd be cool.
To tell you the truth though, the whole thing about the liquid metal lake went over my head when I read WoA. Just wasn't obvious enough I guess. By the end of WoA, everything was moving fast enough that even the connection between what Vin and Elend find and what Fedik found wasn't clear for me.
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To tell you the truth though, the whole thing about the liquid metal lake went over my head when I read WoA. Just wasn't obvious enough I guess. By the end of WoA, everything was moving fast enough that even the connection between what Vin and Elend find and what Fedik found wasn't clear for me.
I have to agree with you there. I didn't even notice any mention of a liquid-metal lake. That would be a neat idea with a clear liquid metal as mercury's alternate. Although, the liquid metal could also be casium, francium, gallium, or rubidium which are all liiquid at or around room temperature....
That would be quite a sight to see, a whole lake of liquid metal. Brings quite a neat image to mind.
Why was it that Vin could release Ruin?
I think we are asking the wrong question here. I think we should be asking why she was chosen by Ruin not why she could do it at all. I think that anyone with either hemalurgy/feruchemy/allomancy or any combination of the three could have released it. Alendi was the one chosen by the well until Rashek decided that that would not do. So, now Rashek goes to the well and can either release Ruin or take the power himself. He takes the power himself and effectively bests Ruin for a thousand years or so. So either I'm completely crazy or we should look at the angle as to why Ruin wanted it to be her and not someone else like Zane or anyone else...
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From what I remember, Ruin controls the mist spirits. The mist spirit would have tried to attack anyone that tried to get to Preservation first (via the liquid-metal lake) because they want everyone to go to the well with Ruin in it instead.
The mist spirit attacked Elend to try to make Vin keep Ruin instead of releasing it...
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Although, the liquid metal could also be casium, francium, gallium, or rubidium which are all liiquid at or around room temperature....
Man, all of the obscure ones. I'm impressed. Was going for something that'd be a bit more common, but you're definitely right about the options. Something else about the lake that the people would probably have noticed too is the high surface tension at the lake's edges. A pool of mercury wouldn't lay flat against the rocks/shore. It'd have a raised edge. Don't know about the others in the list above, but I'm guessing that it'd probably be the same. Metallic properties and all. Anyhow, something else that would have made it much more obvious that this was an actual lake of liquid metal and not a lake of water with something shiny on the top.
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Kelsier ducked down a side corridor, and Vin had to sprint to keep up with him. She flared pewter, willing her legs to move faster. Ahead, Kelsier paused, and Vin lurched to a stop beside him. To their right was an open, arching doorway, and it shone with a light far brighter than that of the small corridor lanterns. Vin extinguished her tin, following Kelsier through the archway and into the room. Six braziers burned with open flames at the corners of the large, dome-roofed chamber. In contrast to the simple corridors, this room was covered with silver- inlayed murals. Each obviously represented the Lord Ruler; they were like the windows she had seen earlier, except less abstract. She saw a mountain. A large cavern. A pool of light. And something very dark.
Kelsier strode forward, and Vin turned. The center of the room was dominated by a small structure—a building within the building. Ornate, with carved stone and flowing patterns, the single-story building stood reverently before them.
Vin burst into the building-within-a-building, nearly tripping on a rug made from some exotic fur. She frowned, scanning the chamber urgently, searching for whatever the Lord Ruler hid inside of it. It has to be here, she thought desperately. The clue to defeating him—the way to win this battle. She was counting on the Inquisitors being distracted by their wounds long enough for her to search out the Lord Ruler’s secret and escape. The room had only one exit—the entrance she’d come through—and a hearth burned in the center of the chamber. The walls were decorated with odd trappings; furs hung from most places, the pelts dyed in strange patterns. There were a few old paintings, their colors faded, their canvases yellowed. Vin searched quickly, urgently, looking for anything that could prove to be a weapon against the Lord Ruler. Unfortunately, she saw nothing useful; the room felt foreign, but unremarkable. In fact, it had a comfortable hominess, like a study or den. It was packed full of strange objects and decorations—like the horns of some foreign beast and a strange pair of shoes with very wide, flat bottoms. It was the room of a pack rat, a place to keep memories of the past. She jumped as something moved near the center of the room. A pivoting chair stood by the hearth, and it spun slowly, revealing the wizened old man who sat in it. Bald, with liver-spotted skin, he appeared to be in his seventies. He wore rich, dark clothing, and he frowned angrily at Vin.
Just thought I would post this. Thought it seemed strange that he would create this building within a building with a hearth in the center, when he could have just constructed a room near his throne or somewhere else...
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First of all, let me clear up some confusion. For those of you searching for the reference, it's in the Final Empire, not well of ascension, in on of the log book entries.
Second of all, CURSE YOU OOKLA AND YOUR SILLY MOK POSTS!
Thirdly, I think it's very probably that Brandon created these metals just as he created Atium. I like the idea of the two wells, but I have a question. If those two wells are both metals, does that make them they 17th and 18th metals? They wouldn't fit into the circle thingy then. But if they are both well-like then they are probably each other's compliment, and thus I don't think either can be the compliment of the 15th metal that Elend ate. I guess maybe neither of them are allomantic at all, and are something completely different.
So. There are two "wells," and the Mist Spirit protects both of them. Only, we don't know this, because the Mist Spirit has only been seen protecting the pool Fedik tried sampling, and the well below Luthadel. What if, what was considered the well of ascension in Alendi's time isn't what the Lord Ruler moved. What if the two "wells," sort of take turns gathering power, one each millennium. And the Lord Ruler took the power from his well of ascension, and then moved the other one containing Ruin to Luthadel, calling it the well of ascension, so that he could get the other one as well? DO you guys see what I'm saying? The Mist Spirit only guards one well, the one Ruin is trapped in. Preservation may or may not be trapped in the other well, but this is my theory. The Mist Spirit only guards one well. And that is the metal lake in Alendi's time, not what they CALL the well of ascension. The Lord Ruler then moves this pond to Luthadel, after taking power from the other well, in hopes of taking them both.
There are holes of course, one is that Ruin was altering the prophecies both times, and was taking Alendi to the other well... unless it was Preservation altering things last time, who knows? There is still a lot to be sorted out. What do you think guys?
And Vega just posted while I was getting this ready. I'm assuming he made this room where he did so he could be right over the "well," and feel it's power better? That's jsut my guess anyways.
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I don't think its know for sure that TLR moved the well, only that Vin believed it might be so. If the theory that there are two well's is right, then maybe he didn't move one afterall.
Comatose, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. Ruin could have altered the prophecy both times. I makes sense that if one well is ruin, the other preservation that Ruin wouldn't want Preservation to be released either. He would want to confuse things. Maybe he realized that Alendi was going to release Preservation and then made Rashek (through Hemalurgy) kill ALendi and take the power to himself and not release it. I hope I make sense here
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Only Rashek didn't have hemalurgy back then. Kwaan also says something about how the original prophecies are vague on what to do with the power, this would support there being two wells, one each with different ways to release the things within them. It's just something that occured to me. And the Lord Ruler would have had to move the well, both were in the mountains originally, unless, he also could have left it, and just changed the entire area around it as well.
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I don't think that there is mention of two wells in any prophecy, just the one.
I also don't think its clear as to when Rashek got his Hemalurgic powers.
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OH OH OH! More to add to my theory!
1 - We know the Well and Lake are near each other.
2 - Luthadel and . . . I forget the circled city's name all of a sudden, are next to each other.
What if he didn't MOVE the Well. . . just flattened the world around it. THEN he circled the city because that is where the Lake is hidden?
I think they would gather at the same time, but the Lake hasn't been 'calling' as strong as the Well because the world was staying preserved as it was. This would mean Ruin wanted out so it was trying desperately to get out. NOW Preservation will want out because the world will begin to decay.
The mist spirit attacked Alendi's friend . . maybe only the Hero is allowed to go to the lake so that Preservation isn't given to the wrong person. Then it attacked Elend at the Well to try and keep ANYONE at all from freeing Ruin?
Maybe the Mist Spirit was the person who trapped Ruin and Preservation in the first place????
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Or maybe the 'well' Vin found is really the metal lake, and the thing in Statlin city is the 'well' that Rashek found? Who knows. And we don't know much at all about what the prophecy says, and remember it isn't the most reliable thing. Kwaan says it is vague, and just because there are two 'wells' doesn't mean there are two well of ascensions.
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I don't see WHY he would change the shape of the lake into a Well or if he could, but he might have.
Remember how she/he could be translated both ways? Maybe there is no plural form in this language so it could be translated as Well or Wells.
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Wow. Guess I should never skip a day of logging on. Hmmm. I'm impressed overall. I think the two wells theory is actually pretty good. It makes a lot of sense. And I think it's impressive that we started a thread and three posts later ookla said that someone was on to something.
Anyway, I've always believed the LR didn't move the well, just changed the landscape around it. So, Miyabi's additions make sense. I think it may be that only the Hero of Ages can release the power at either well (assuming there are two) and that if anyone else tries, they will be hurt. That, or someone with a specific ability. That actually makes more sense, unless Rashek became the hero when Alendi died. Or maybe Ruin and Preservation have to want it to be some specific person....but now I'm just rambling. Anyway, that would explain why the mist spirit stabs Elend and the other dude. Although it may be it just likes the metal lake.
Anyway, my $.02. Though it was actually more like $.002 at this point...Need Sleep...
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Wow I think this is like the first time people have genuinly liked and agreed with one of my theories. ha ha.
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I was just thinking... Mercury is one of the metals in MB Prime. Though a lot of the metals changed, and it isn't a good thing for us to compare too much, it's entirely possible that the metal lake is just a bunch of mercury. And maybe mercury has some allomantic property that the mist spirit doesn't want discovered. Just a thought.
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Who says he changed it. Vin describes the well as a sort of pool. Pool and pond or lake are fairly similar in appearance. I'm just using the word well, because that's what the book calls this pond.
I still think that the Mist Spirit is only guarding the ONE well, which leads me to believe that Ruin was in the metal lake, and Preservation, or something else was in the well that Alendi and Rashek went to. Rashek killed Alendi, and took the power, perhaps leaving Preservation trapped( I'm assuming Preservation is still trapped seeing as how Ruin is so poweful now), or taking Preservation into himself. The Mist Spirit is against Ruin, just as the Deepness is with him. The mist Spirit stops anyone from going to Ruin's well, stabbing Fedik when he got too close, and stabbing Elend when Vin was taking the power. I think that the well Rashek took power from could very well be from Statlin city, and perhaps now that he is dead Preservation has gone back there.
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I think this could all tie back to my theory about the 15th and 16th metals being Ruin and Preservation in some manner of speaking.
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I can see that, the 15th and 16th metal's being Ruin and Preservation. Maybe something trapped them into the metal's/well's for the safety of the world or something like that. I think it would really tie everything together nicely
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Yes, but no one liked that theory last time I proposed it. ha ha.
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Well I wasn't there. The theories we seem to be coming up with lead to different conclusions and this conclusion seems logical with everything we have discussed
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Sorry Miyabi, but the 15th metal was the one Elend ate. I don't think there was a super spirit in that. I think maybe Ruin and Preservation are trapped in the liquid metal of the well, but I don't think all metal of that type has them in it. Perhaps the two 'wells,' as we are calling them have the same metal in them.
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Maybe the metals in the wells are like super metals, able to give you incredible powers. Maybe the more you ingest the stronger you are.
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I agree with Coma here, but not Coof.
It just wouldn't be that simple Coof.
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So, what if the 15th metal that Elend ate (small crystalline piece) was a crystal that had solidified out of the liquid metal pond/lake. Elend gets allomantic powers because it's the metal that is involved with Preservation. Then, the liquid metal lake would be made of the 15th metal, and the "clear metal" in the well that Ruin was in would be the 16th. (Not the 17th and 18th). So, if this is the case, would someone gain allomantic powers by ingesting the liquid metal or just the crystals from it? And what sort of powers would they gain by ingesting the stuff from the well of ascension? Hemalurgic powers? Those associated with Ruin? Would you get crystals from the "clear metal" within the well? If so, where are they? Could this be where Vin's going to get hemalurgic powers from? Or does she already have them?
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I don't think we could go that far out of the realm of what we have already seen. To just suddenly have this different way to get Hemalurgy doesn't make sense.
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I'm wondering if the metal in the lake and the metal in the well aren't the same (I'm also wondering if the lake we see and Vin's Well of Ascension are the same as well). The 15th metal gives allomancy (power), and the 16th, can trap gods (limit power).
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:o I think you're onto something there.
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I like the "opposite" idea, Comatose. Giving power vs. limiting power for the 15th and 16th metals. Still, what powers are being limited? What powers does Ruin have? For that matter, what powers does Preservation hold? Are they in line with Allomancy? I forget what kind of power Vin says that she feels like she has once at the Well before giving it back to Ruin. Godly powers, assumedly. But do they work into the framework of powers that we already know about, or is it something new?
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I think we can assume it's something new, since Ruin can alter text and metal minds, and none of the human magic systems can do this.
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They are god-like powers. . . they don't need a system. It's called being the DM. ha ha. j/k.
I don't think the "God Powers" will fit within a system, but the metal would probably limit any kind of power.
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I agree with Miyabi, if it's going to limit anyone's power, it's going to be the person who burns it. It doesn't seem fair that if I burn the 15th metal, I get allomancy, and if I burn the 16th I get to trap a god. That's just not cool.
So, what if the 15th metal that Elend ate (small crystalline piece) was a crystal that had solidified out of the liquid metal pond/lake. Elend gets allomantic powers because it's the metal that is involved with Preservation. Then, the liquid metal lake would be made of the 15th metal, and the "clear metal" in the well that Ruin was in would be the 16th. (Not the 17th and 18th). So, if this is the case, would someone gain allomantic powers by ingesting the liquid metal or just the crystals from it? And what sort of powers would they gain by ingesting the stuff from the well of ascension? Hemalurgic powers? Those associated with Ruin? Would you get crystals from the "clear metal" within the well? If so, where are they? Could this be where Vin's going to get hemalurgic powers from? Or does she already have them?
I pretty much agree with this. I think that the 15th metal could well be from the preservation-lake and the 16th from the ruin-lake. And Miyabi, we absolutely have evidence to suggest this is a way to get hemalurgy through allomancy. It can be inherited genetically, or through the 15th metal. So, hemalurgy could be inherited through piercings, or the 16th metal. Which would explain how the LR is a hemalurgist for all you die-hard "the bracers are not hemalurgical" people out there.
I think we can assume it's something new, since Ruin can alter text and metal minds, and none of the human magic systems can do this.
Not necessarily. We don't know for sure what they're capable of, and even if we did, it's possible that Ruin just has the subtlety of millennia of practice. It's kind of like how inquisitors see. Maybe moving ink around is just very subtle allomancy. And we pretty much don't know anything about hemalurgy.
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Ok so if we go with your line of thought are the two metals from the lakes both from the same source? I mean that all allomantic metals have an alloy that is also allomantic. So are the two metals in the lake paired (one being the source and one the alloy)? Or is there an alloy for each?
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But there are only 16 metals, so if the fifteenth is the one that elend ate, the the sixteenth is the one trapping Ruin and or Preservation. SO I think the metal in both the lake and the well are the same metal, and they are paired with the 15th metal. There's nothing to suggest that they are different. As I said before I also believe that Alendi's "lake," is what Vin thinks is the well of ascension in her time. I think there are two wells. And the mist spirit only guards one, the one that Ruin is in, so if Ruin is in the well Vin released, then he's in the one that the mist spirit guards, thus the "well," is the lake that Alendi sees. In Alendi's time, the well of ascension was the other well, the one The Mist Spirit doesn't guard, and possibly the one that may now be located at or under Statlin city. This may be where Preservation is/was. I've said this all before.
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I still think they are the same metal and that the 15th is the one Elend ate. I don't think each "well" is a different metal. (Note: I claim all originality calling the lake a well. ROFL)
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That's what I'm saying, that the well's are the same metal and the fifteenth is the one Elend ate.
Quote from me:
SO I think the metal in both the lake and the well are the same metal, and they are paired with the 15th metal
And actually Miyabi, technically I called it a well first, two posts before yours, but I also wasn't sure; I said what if, so you can claim the originality if you want.
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Coma your theory makes a lot of sense.
I think though that the metal that Elend ate would have to grant a lot of power, not just Allomancy. The metals so far seem to be balanced in what power they give. Sometimes the power is more useful in a general sense but they are balanced.
For this theory to make sense for me, elend would need to get as much power as Vin, or maybe the Lord Ruler. I mean the sixteenth metal traps a God! We didn't see any evidence of that in the second book yet that Elend is as powerful as TLR, but maybe he just didn't realize that he can use like Feruchemy and Hemalurgy yet.
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But the metal and the well can't be the same, Alendi hadn't reached the well yet, although the description is earily similar. What if... what we know as the well of ascension is something totally different. What if there are two wells, and the other is still in the mountains?
KINDA! But I called the Lake a Well first. :P ha ha.
Yeah, I was agreeing with you and disagreeing with the people saying that each Well was a different metal.
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I don't know... it seemed pretty clear to me that the metallic lake and the Well of Ascension are one in the same. Reading MB1 again after reading MB2, it seems a lot more rational. Brandon has said there is only one mist spirit, and the only one we see is the one which doesn't want anybody going to the Well of Ascension (as seen in MB2). If the metallic lake was the Well of Ascension, then this gives the mist spirit the motive to attack Fedik. The mist spirit wouldn't want it to free Ruin, and just touching the waters seems to automatically give you its power.
Otherwise, there's no motive for the mist spirit to attack Fedik.
Also, it's entirely possible Ookla is screwing with you, you know.
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Of course I am. But in what way?
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In the way that you enjoy it far too much for me to be comfortable with.
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In the way that he said something to get us a LITTLE closer to the truth, but then we jumped all the way to the right answer so he shut up. xP
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That or in the way that he said something to get us moving in the right direction and we went and jumped off a cliff. I tend to agree with chaos after re-evaluating my opinion. I suppose it still could work, but it makes more sense to have one lake, one well (the same thing, which I didn't catch).
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Yes, but then started calling them both "wells" for sake of the thought that they are similar things.
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No, not like that there is one lake and one well, but that the one lake and the one well are the same thing.
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But the lake and the well are separate, Alendi is being pulled to the 'well,' by the thumpings but he passes right by the lake.