Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Andrew the Great on May 03, 2008, 06:34:54 AM
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Sometimes, I worry that I'm not the hero everyone thinks I am.
The Philosophers assure me that this is the time, that the signs have been met. But still, I wonder if they have the wrong man. So many people depend on me. They say I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms.
What would they think if the knew that their champion - the Hero of Ages, their savior - doubted himself? Perhaps they wouldn't be shocked at all. In a way, this is what worries me most. Maybe, in their hearts, they wonder - just as I do.
When they see me, do they see a liar?
OK. What's the deal with the holding of the future of the world on the arms thing? This has always seemed weird to me. I understand that Alendi has great influence on the future, but why his arms? Why not his back or his shoulders? And not only his arms, but ON his arms. Shouldn't he hold the future IN his arms?
So what's the significance? Am I just crazy and reading way too far into this?
The first thing that I thought of was that they were feruchemial bracelets, and they were super important ones that only Alendi could access. But that doesn't make sense, given his later fascination with feruchemy.
Could there be some type of hemalurgical thing on his arms, so important as to affect the whole world? What does everyone think about this?
EDIT: Corrected spelling, Changed hemalurgy to feruchemy a few times so as not to confuse all you people....I hate it when I do stupid things like type hemalurgy instead of feruchemy three or four times in a row.
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For a minute there, I thought this was a joke topic. Seriously.
I think... I think it's just a metaphor... or at least, that's what I always thought until now. "Shoulders" would seem to be the more proper noun to use there.
I think we need help. Major, very expensive psychiatric therapy.
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Metal minds. He hold the history of the world, and all the information about how to save the world in the metal minds he has on his arms... not in. At least, that's my guess.
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No. That part was written as Alendi, TLR was Rashek, so it couldn't have meant those, or at least not through the deduction you're using. Maybe he had tatoos or it could be referring to his over-theorized hemalurgical piercings that seem to exist out of the power of Want. We know by now the BS doesn't just throw stuff like that in there with having a deeper evil purpose behind it... (Ever wonder what the 'E' in EUOL is? EVIL! Muahahaha!) ... I'm going to bed now.
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I think we need help. Major, very expensive psychiatric therapy.
Agreed totally.
This was a new find for me. MB1 Annotations, prologue part 1
Somewhere in the italicized pre-chapter blurb of the prologue here is the clue one needs to figure out the over-arching mystery of the entire series. If you figure it out, good for you! If you don't, you'll have to wait until the last chapter of the final book to get it explained. . . .
So what I found may or may not have any relation to this, but what does everyone think is the important phrase? And, yes chaos, I don't really know what inspired this topic. It all made sense yesterday....
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Strange but I thought it a joke as well for a little, very little while. I love words. But I can see something here. So might I suggest this :
On his shoulder - would have indicated that he would end up with the whole responsiblities of the World. Shoulder could relate to a passive action - you are simply responsible and that's it.
In his hands - would mean that he had to do something. After all, it's the hands that are doing things. So he would have to do something for the future of the world.
In his arms - would mean that he would have to take care of the future of the world, actively. To have something in our arms, you are holding it. It is active.
On his arms - would also indicate a passive thing - you do not have to do anything. But... could it mean that the bracelets were to be a kind of a gift to the hero ? So it did not matter if he was Alendi or Rashek. The hero would end up having the bracelets which would carry him into the future from generation to generation. I remember that Alendi was not a feruchemist, so even with something being able to have feruchemist powers would not be of any use to him. Unless there would be a way to make someone be a Feruchemist... pretty much like allomancy... I believe though the bracelet to be more in the order of hemalurgy. The Hero being revealed could become hemalurgist, whatever he was before.
Would that make sense ?
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Maybe it has something to do with the "piercings of heroes" (I believe they are called).
Then again, they also say "will hold" which implies something in the future.
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I also think this is metaphorical. I think it is Alendi's doubt that is more significant. However, I question myself a little because the rest of that epigraph explains what we already know. There doesn't seem to be anything in there that isn't already explained. We know Alendi was a pawn, we know the prophecies were manipulated, and we know what the purpose for it was. We also know that the same thing happened to Vin, although she wasn't prevented from reaching the well. Maybe the piercings would allow him to store the energy from the well? He would not use it or give it away, but trap it for as long as he lived? Nothing beats wild speculation, let me tell you.
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Fascinating find, Andrew. When I was re-reading the annotations last week, I saw that same comment and wondered what the clue was. I was thinking along the lines of everyone actually doubting Alendi, but what you found has far more potential.
I'm thinking the word "future" is significant. We know that metalminds can store history, what if they can also store reverse memories, "memories" of things to come? There might be a way to use enhanced atium to see the entire world's future, then keep those visions for later reference. (Incidentally, this might explain how TLR was able to lay an ambush for Kelsier with the prisoner carts in MB1, when Kelsier thought he was the ambusher.)
However, all this is weakened if not demolished by Avalon's point that the epigraph was Alendi, not Rashek. So unless Alendi and Rashek shared some power (hemalurgy?), observations about TLR are pretty irrelevant in interpreting Alendi.
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Unless Rashek read Alendi's journal and decided he would act out the beliefs the Worldbringers had about Alendi. Rashek could have easily convinced himself that he was the real Hero of Ages, and used Alendi's journal to learn some of what that role entailed. It a good reason to keep the journal. EUOL says the jounal's location the only religious style room (an alter and such) that is shown in the book. There was some type of reverence there, or at least it seemed that way.
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I agree there was a feel of reverence about it, but maybe the room was just a reminder of the good old days? He'd keep people out so that someone wouldn't make the connection that he was in fact a Terrisman and he could keep the journal safe there
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Well that's no fun :) Besides, it wasnt' all that secure, especially compared to his special room where he regenerated. By the time Vin comes along, it doesn't appear that the journal is that important anymore. If TLR card for it, he would have tried to find out who stole it.
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At that point, he was probably more involved searching for the rogue mistborn who dared steal from him and tempt his almighty wrath, then he was about finding the journal itself. Maybe he was keeping it as a reference, though? HoA Handbook, as written as boringly as possible by Alendi.
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Good points, guys, but could we include our thoughts on the epigraph as well? We seem to be getting a little sidetracked here....
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Well, we may be getting a bit off track here, but it's a few valid points nonetheless; and remember, TWG is synonymous with ADD, so don't get too upset at us for running after each new shiny train of thought.
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I think there is relevance to our points. by looking into Rashek's history, it may help us better understand that first epigraph. After all, he did have piercings on his arms. If that statement is more literal than I believe it to be, that may have great significance.
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By no means did I mean to imply that your points did not have relevance, nor that you couldn't make them. I simply was asking that you include your thoughts on the epigraph as well when we do run off after that shiny new train. Please do discuss the LR's background, I just also want to hear if you think there is something else that could be the clue Brandon was talking about, or if you think my idea is correct/incorrect and why, etc, etc, etc.
Please discuss the Lord Ruler's background to your heart's content. But include the thread topic as well.
I think the journal's location in the altar room has some significance, considering that it is the only religious location we see in MB1. It was found in a religious area, so I think it's probably not a think back on the good times thing. The Hero of Ages reference thing makes more sense to me.
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Is it said anywhere that the epigraph comes concretely from the journal, or alendi/rashek at all? (my copy of TFE is in my office and I don't feel like getting it...) What if that blurb was written by Vin at some point?
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EUOL has said that the epigraphs are all from the Journal in book 1, and Kwaan's steel plate in book 2. I am reading Elantris now, but I will start to reread Mistborn again when I am done.
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The epigraph at the end of book one always puzzles me. It's the one about ALendi feeling peace inside him (like he's being soothed?) because he knows if he fails another will arise to take his place. This passage is never mentioned anywhere else in the books, and you think Vin would have read it, considereing it directly states the hero will come again.
The way it's arranged, it also seems like it comes after the "tommorow it will end" bit, which we know is the end of the journal. Iwas wondering, if perhaps, that epigraph was never written, and is just what Alendi was thinking at the time. ThoughtS??
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I seem to recall Brandon saying in his annotations that most of the epigraphs were in order, but not all. This could be one of the exceptions.
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I know that, but the way the section was written, it's jsut a hunch, based totally on my instincts (meager though they are), that it comes after the last epigraph in the actual log book. I think this beause it seems to come after the sections that come directly before the "tommorow it will end" bit, and we know those are right together from when Vin reads them right from the book.
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Possibly it could be something Alendi never wrote, or something he wrote somewhere else. Or Vin was tired and reading fast and didn't really notice it. I'm not really sure how it works, but I'm inclined to believe it is part of the logbook.
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It is part of the logbook. Also, after compiling it, I can confirm that it is not in order. It came to me also, from what I did read, that actually, Alendi might have gone to the Well of Ascension and acted. He stipulates that he HAS SEEN the future that will come to pass if he does take the power for himself. Now, Vin sees a future when the Well's liquid gets into her and she is faced with questions. However, it seems that Alendi had sometime to take his decisison. Most likely, Rashek killed him after. Would you think that Alendi's blood power, if it happened that way, could have been used as sacrifice for Rashek's hemalurgical powers ? I'll bring some quotes once I am home with my notes...
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Would you think that Alendi's blood power, if it happened that way, could have been used as sacrifice for Rashek's hemalurgical powers ? I'll bring some quotes once I am home with my notes...
That makes a lot of sense to me. It solves the problem of who is blood sacrifice is (assuming he had to have one...). Also, you have the full logbook compiled? Want to post that somewhere? That would be amazing. I was actually going to do that, but if you already have it, it saves me a lot of work.
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Ya, that would be awesome Vintage!!! I was going to also, but I never have time!
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I don't feel comfortable about printing it on internet just like that, but yes, I have it all compiled. I will e-mail it to you if you left your e-mail address in your profile. Otherwise, I will be waiting for you to give it to me. I will send it to whoever ask for it as long as you showed some interest in the question to begin with.
So here as promised. I have the logbook beside me. 7 pages of it !
Chap. 5 - The Terris philosophers (which were already corrupted by Ruin) told Alendi that when he will be faced with his choices, he will know his duty - When Vin is at the Well, is it Vin's reflexion on the logbook which tells her not to keep the power for herself or is it Ruin still murmuring to her ?
Chap. 6 - Funny thing, it seems that the Deepness could only be defeated in Terris, not only as per the philosophers saying but also because Alendi could feel the pulsing of the Well.
Chap. 14 - Here is the first mention about shadows that follow him. And in chap. 20, not only does he change his mind about it not being a shadow, but it passes from plural to singular. Well, he describes it well enough that we know that it is the Mist Spirit. But what I notice now is that he first describe it as a "dark forg. Or mist, perhaps." We do know now that the mist is at the base of the three magic systems. Therefore, the mist had to be around during the time feruchemy came to be however this happened. Therefore, Alendi does not say a dark mist, he says a dark fog, and gets more precise in saying "or mist", as if a dark fog would be mist. But... if this is the case, the sun, in those days was still yellow, and the grass, still green. Could there be mist and ashfalls only at night ? Or could its darkness not come from the ash as I previously thought ?
Chap. 22 talks of the Deepness as briging a blight that infected nearly every part of the land. Armies are useless before it. Great cities are laid low by its power. Crops fail, and the land dies. I must admit that Vin's deduction puts us on tract here. I would tend to follow her line of thought, but also, I do wonder... Eventhough the Terris countryside was before described as a green environment, could it be that in some part of the earth there could already be some brownish plants ? Could it be a type of slow poison ? I am no botanist, I have no clue, really, beside the word "blight" and the accent on the crops and land and not on people, as we now see with the mist killing people.
Chap. 23, Alendi confirms that the pulsing from the mountains is drawing him closer.
Chap. 27 mentions the piercings of the Hero, but there is no more indication for it.
Chap. 28 talks more of the Deepness.
I have seen it, and I have felt it. This name we give it is too weak a word, I think. Yes, it is deep and unfathomable, but it is also terrible. Many do not realize that it is sentient, but I have sensed its mind, such that it is, the few times I have confronted it directly.
It is a thing of destruction, madness, and corruption. It would destroy this world not out of spite or out of animosity, but simply because that is what it does.
Now let's read p.577 of MB2
"What happened ?" he asked.
She shook her head, leaning against the stones of the battlement. She could still hear that terrible, booming voice. I am FREE...
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"What happened to the power ? Ham didn't have a straight answer for me, and all anyone else knows are rumors."
"I set something free", she whispered. "Something that shouldn't have been released; something that led me to the Well. I should never have gone looking for it, Elend."
Elend stood in silence, still regarding the city.
She turned, burying her head in his chest. "It was terrible," she said. "I could feel that. And I set it free."
Do you see the similitude ? Both the Deepness and whatever was liberated at the Well have the same description. Same words. I would say they are brothers... or father and son.
Now chap. 32 brings answers maybe to a few questions that we did ask. We learn that Terrismen were speaking with awe about the beauties and wonder of Khlenni, especially its cathedrals, with their amazing stained glass windows and broad halls. Also, young Terrismen, back to the city would trade their furs and skins for well-tailored gentlemen's suits. Well, one thousand years later, the windows of Kredik Shaw were still of stained glass and the halls of every keep and palace were broad all right ! Could Luthadel actually be Khlenni ? At least we do know why Rashek had those windows tainted now.
Chap. 33 brings another hint I think. It was said that only in Terris could the Deepness be defeated, but here it is said that the altitude was somehow affecting it a natural way and that the Deepness was loosing its oppressive touch. This part of the logbook also talks about Fedik which the Mist Spirit attacked. It is Fedik that discovered the metal lake and Alendi expresses his regret that he did not let him take a sample of the liquid. Note that Alendi does not talk of wanting to get to the lake himself. He only rejoices because now Fedik has seen the Mist Spirit also.
Chap. 35 Alendi talks about the choice he has to make. Somehow he has seen what would happen if he would take the power for himself. Vin also saw a future when filled with the Well's liquid. Now how did Alendi see the future if it is not at the Well ? This is partly what bugs me. Would it be possible that Alendi did not have to take his choice right at the moment when the Well's liquid got into him - if he went that far, of course. But this is what really make me wonder. Would it be possible that Alendi would have been filed with the well's liquid, seen the future, and then take his decision about the power only after a little while ? And after a last ode to the yellow sun in chapter 37, Alendi expresses his fears of Rashek in the last chapter.
Could it be possible that still in the Well, still filed with the liquid, Rashek could have ceased his chance (Kwaan had said in his steel plate that Alendi was very hard to surprise and very strong, so much he was not sure Rashek could get him), jump in the Well (now dry) and killed Alendi right then ? The liquid that did not want to mix with Elend's blood would have perfectly mixed with Alendi's blood like this, no ? Both liquid and blood coming out of the man at the same time and filing again the one that stands there ? The one Rashek, of course, creating his hemalurgic powers and he becoming the "Hero" without even having attempted to be the one. It would fit more with the character I think, the character of Rashek before he had become the despotic tyrant that TLR was.
Now ends my rambling for the night. Have fun with it. Work with it and do ask for the logbook.
Edit- Comatose, I e-mailed you the logbook :D
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That looks like a LOT of work there, Vintage!
Thank you very much for putting that all together for everyone. I hope you don't mind, but I took what you did, and copied all of it into a Word document on my computer.
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Vintage, you are officially my hero. I added my email to my profile, so if you want to email it to me I would love it! That's a great reference for all sorts of subjects, and so I would like to speak for everyone and say thank you for saving me a whole lot of time!
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Vambram, what you read is not the logbook but only my thoughts after rereading it as a whole. I had a lot of fun compiling it though and I am happy to be of help to anyone.
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I went through all of the annotations and added all of the times Brandon mentions the epigraphs to Vintage's compilation. If anyone wants it, please just ask. I'll be happy to email it to you.
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Send a copy on to me plz? I just finished Vintage's compilation (thank you again! ^^) and I'd love to read the compiled annotations to them. Thank you in advance.
Is it just me, or has activity just totally tapered off lately? We're at like 4 or 5 posts a day now...
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Yes, I was noticing that activity is rather low these days....and it's the same 4 or five people who post each day too. I sent the logbook to you Avalon, if anyone else wants it, just ask.
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Don't worry. Activity is always very low here on week ends. Now that we are all equipped, maybe we can work ? What did you think of my thoughts on the previous page ? I had no reflexions at all... Working so hard and be ignore :'( Not fair.
Ok Just go back and tear it apart ;D
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It's not even this weekend, though, its been all this week... Anyway, we're sorry Vintage, we've all been marveling over having a modicum of organization around here (I guess it takes a mom to organize a bunch of geeks with ADD, no matter the setting).
I like your theory (what of it I can currently understand), but I'm a wee unclear on what you meant with the blood part. I agree that whatever was bound before is what's loose now, nice catch with the similarity of the descriptions on that one. One of the literary devices I've noticed Brandon uses a lot is that he'll have people use the same adjectives to describe stuff and leave clues that way.
Blegh.
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In a lot of school, you have tests and exams (or whatever you may call it where you are) right now. Every student might just be studying hard (plus Chaos works as well) and concentrate on that. I don't worry. Especially since it seemed that before we got a few little things organize, we seemed not to get very far. They'll be back.
This is what I mean. In MB2, when Elend is attacked and wounded by the Mist Spirit, Brandon specifies that Elend's blood was flowing into the liquid metal lake and WAS NOT mixing. If he specified it, there must be a reason. Now, when the liquid got into Vin, it could not possibly just got in her or else she would have exploded. What I think is that it... what's the word... became one with her whole being, therefore her blood and the metal mixed perfectly, even that the liquid metal became her very blood.
Now, when Alendi was in the same position, filled with awe with the power and looking at a future, Rashek should have been able to "surprise" him. Now, I am not saying that is what happened, only rambling. But, what would happen if Rashek would have killed Alendi right at this moment, when both blood and liquid metal are one ? Would that not be a perfect mix to create someone with a power so great and "natural" ? Otherwise, if you need a blood bath to be able to use hemalurgic power, would that not be the very best one ?
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Vambram, what you read is not the logbook but only my thoughts after rereading it as a whole. I had a lot of fun compiling it though and I am happy to be of help to anyone.
Thank you. :).. oh, and so far, I do agree with your thoughts and insights you wrote concerning the log entries.
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I went through all of the annotations and added all of the times Brandon mentions the epigraphs to Vintage's compilation. If anyone wants it, please just ask. I'll be happy to email it to you.
I would love to have this emailed to me also, please.
Thank you. :)
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Your email is hidden, Vambram. I'll need that if I am to send it to you. I also have Vintage's version of kwaan's steel plate plus annotations if anyone is interested.
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Thank you very much for the quick response to the pm, Andrew, and thank you very much for those files.
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Happy to help, and if anyone else wants it, I do have it. Anyway, I think it's about time we got back on topic. Vintage, I'm confused. Are you suggesting that Alendi actually entered the well before Rashek killed him? Or did I totally misinterpret that? I guess that kind of makes sense, but it makes more sense for Rashek to kill him before that. I think the whole thing about Alendi seeing the future if he releases the power is just referring to the fact that he knows what is supposed to happen and he's seen enough death and destruction to predict what will happen. Thoughts?
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I think the whole thing about Alendi seeing the future if he releases the power is just referring to the fact that he knows what is supposed to happen and he's seen enough death and destruction to product what will happen. Thoughts?
I agree. I think that is what Alendi was talking about. I doubt that he was truly seeing the future, but instead making a prediction based upon his fears and knowledge of what he has learned.
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Yes, that is exactly what I suggest. We know from Kwaan's steel plate, that Rashek's action was a last hope and he didn't place to much trust in that. Alendi had already survived many attempts to his life. He was strong and you could not surprise him. He wasn't an easy target. I think that if Alendi had entered the Well, he could have "see" a future (I always say "a" future" because the choice is always presented as well eventhough you do not see the other future) and filled with the power, he would be distracted enough for Rashek to come near him. But as you say, it could be only that he could imagine it after all he's seen. Mind you, I'm not convinced at all.
Moreover, filled with the power like this, having his blood "modified" by the liquid metal, I believe a transfer of power could even have been stronger by virtue of the power of that blood. Excuse my english, I just don't really know how to say it. But do you understand what I'm thinking ?
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I don't know, Vintage, I think Rashek killed Alendi before he absorbed the well's power. He would not have waited that long to act. Anyway, I would like a copy of your efforts, as well. My email is on my profile.
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In that case, vintage, I think that what you are describing is plausible, but not likely. It seems to me that if Alendi were filled with the Well's power, he would have the mental capacity to see everything and still notice Rashek. Look at Vin's experience. From what I recall, at that point Vin is pretty much omniscient. She could see how exactly to "fix" Elend, and she really doesn't have the ideal viewpoint there either. I think it is more likely that Rashek just killed Alendi from behind as he was entering the cave. Or while he was sleeping the night before. It could be any number of things. I agree with Darx, he wouldn't have waited that long to kill Alendi. I do like the idea about the blood giving him extra power though.
Darx, I emailed you the files.
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What if he did the "tackle out of the way of an oncoming car" to Alendi as he's stepping up to the Well? One would think that Alendi would probably be so focused on it, he'd let his gaurd down enough to get taken out.
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It is not a question as if Rashek would have waited that long, but would Alendi give him an occasion since he was hard to surprise ? I am actually thinking, since he was that hard to surprise, that he might have had a little help... do you think it would be possible that Alendi could... burn metals ? Tin, maybe ?
Andrew - Darxbane will receive them double lol I also sent him the files as soon as I got home and before I checked the forum. ;D
you all have to add this part here taken from the Annotations :
Chapter Twenty-nine
I hope I'm not overdoing the parallels between Vin and the Logbook author, the previous person who thought that they might be the Hero of Ages. Some readers, in the original draft, thought her supposition (in the next chapter) that she was the Hero to be too much. They wondered where she got the idea.
I'm not trying to imply that Vin is or isn't the Hero. I'm just trying to show Vin's thought process. That's a tough line to walk in these chapters. As a writer, I want the narrative to be deeply inside someone's viewpoint, and therefore show who that character is and how they view the world. However, I don't want that narrative to indicate--certainly--that what the character thinks is actually true.
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Nice catch, apparently I missed that one.