Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Phaz on April 25, 2008, 09:00:30 PM
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I really like some of the discussions that have been ongoing in the other "theory" threads, so thought I'd start one on a topic that I find really interesting. Snapping.
This is an interesting topic, because it is mentioned in the first two books, but there isn't a ton of emphasis placed on it (at least not in the first two books). I think there are many interesting questions that come from the topic.
* Why does one need to Snap before they can use their powers?
* Do you gain your powers when you Snap, or do you always have them and Snapping just brings them out?
* What is the important part in the process of Snapping? Is it physical trauma? Emotional trauma?
* How traumatic does the Snapping have to be?
I know there are a few others I've had as well. I'll post them when I think of them.
I think the second one is the most interesting. Such as with Kell, was he always going to be a Mistborn if he Snapped? Or was it decided when he Snapped that he would be a Mistborn. For instance, if he Snapped at an earlier time, would he of been something else, or maybe nothing at all.
Also related to that, does how traumatic your Snap is determine what powers you have? The only snapping stories we really know are Vin's and Kells. They both had very traumatic experiences, and both became Mistborn.
That brings up another question with Kell as well. He was a theif. I also believe at least part of his younger life was spent on the streets. We know he was a really really good theif, but I doubt he was perfect for as long as he was doing it. It seems like at some point in his life he would of been beaten or caught or had something happen to him on the streets that would of Snapped him.
It doesn't seem like what Snaps you has to be all that traumatic, since we know that several noblemen are msitings/mistborn, and I can't imagine their lives were all that traumatic.
I look forward to reading other people's theories on this topic.
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Excellent, Phaz. We definitely needed a topic on this.
Kelsier mentions that Allomantic power is latent before you Snapped. But, since he's the guy who told us that there's always another secret, I don't think he is the most objective on the subject.
There are interesting things to say about Kelsier, though. I would think getting originally caught by the Lord Ruler would be pretty traumatic. Instead, his powers waited until Mare died. Maybe that is because Mare essentially kept him going until she died, when he Snapped. Still, it seems that he could've Snapped many times during his time as a thief.
I think the trauma of the Snap is in direct relation with the powers you'll have. Just thinking from my Chemistry class today, which was about state changes. There's a thing called Heat of Vaporization (or Enthalpy of Vaporization), the energy it takes to move something from a liquid to a gas. Gases are very energetic compared to a liquid, so Vaporization energy is always very high for gases. Now, the Vaporization energy differs for different substances. A substance like salt (which has a boiling and melting point because the ionic bonds in them are very powerful) will have a far higher Vaporization energy than something like water.
So say for example, we have a "Trauma point" that is proportional to the amount of power you have as an Allomancer. More power requires more trauma.
Therefore, some noblemen mistings who were less powerful would need less traumatic experiences. I basically just restated what you just said, but with some nonsensical cross-referencing with chemistry.
Let's talk about Vin, too. Kelsier says there could've been many times Vin could've Snapped. Well, since she is so powerful, under this theory it would take a lot to get her to Snap. So, what point would she have Snapped? I think when her mother slays her sister. That seems traumatic enough.
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Excellent, Phaz. We definitely needed a topic on this.
Kelsier mentions that Allomantic power is latent before you Snapped. But, since he's the guy who told us that there's always another secret, I don't think he is the most objective on the subject.
There are interesting things to say about Kelsier, though. I would think getting originally caught by the Lord Ruler would be pretty traumatic. Instead, his powers waited until Mare died. Maybe that is because Mare essentially kept him going until she died, when he Snapped. Still, it seems that he could've Snapped many times during his time as a thief.
I think the trauma of the Snap is in direct relation with the powers you'll have. Just thinking from my Chemistry class today, which was about state changes. There's a thing called Heat of Vaporization (or Enthalpy of Vaporization), the energy it takes to move something from a liquid to a gas. Gases are very energetic compared to a liquid, so Vaporization energy is always very high for gases. Now, the Vaporization energy differs for different substances. A substance like salt (which has a boiling and melting point because the ionic bonds in them are very powerful) will have a far higher Vaporization energy than something like water.
So say for example, we have a "Trauma point" that is proportional to the amount of power you have as an Allomancer. More power requires more trauma.
Therefore, some noblemen mistings who were less powerful would need less traumatic experiences. I basically just restated what you just said, but with some nonsensical cross-referencing with chemistry.
Let's talk about Vin, too. Kelsier says there could've been many times Vin could've Snapped. Well, since she is so powerful, under this theory it would take a lot to get her to Snap. So, what point would she have Snapped? I think when her mother slays her sister. That seems traumatic enough.
I think Vin and Kell are both strong arguments in support of that theory. It does kind of make sense from the standpoint of Snapping being what unlocks your power. If you are more powerful, you need something more traumatic to unlock it.
Interestingly enough, you could also use this as an argument against the theory that it was what Elend swallowed that made him an allomancer, and it was just that the experience Snapped him.
Elend was the son of a very very powerful nobleman. It's unlikely he experienced something as traumatic as him being stabbed at the Well at an earlier point in his life. This could of very well been the tipping point for him.
I know that it's by far the more popular opinion that the bead is what made Elend a Mistborn, but this is just something to think about.
Also, I know that one of the strongest pieces of evidence about it being the bead that made him one was Vin saying "Now we know where the first Allomancers came from." But that is a somewhat vague statement. She could of very well been referring to the Well or to Ruin or the power she released or something other than the bead. In addition, even if Vin was referring to the bead, it doesn't mean she was right about it.
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Elend di have a traumatic experience, Kelsier says he almost died in a house reaid, I'm pretty sure the bead gave him the power.
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Elend di have a traumatic experience, Kelsier says he almost died in a house reaid, I'm pretty sure the bead gave him the power.
I don't remember that specifically but now that you mention it, it does sound vaguely familiar.
I think that's the great thing about discussing this stuff as a group, someone else can add things that we don't remember or never found significant.
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Vin was hoping elend was a misting or mistborn so he could be of use, but kelsier assures her that he's not because he didn't snap or show any previously had abilities at that point.
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Vin was hoping elend was a misting or mistborn so he could be of use, but kelsier assures her that he's not because he didn't snap or show any previously had abilities at that point.
I wonder how Kell knows this.
Kell also (if I remember correctly) implies that most noblemen that become Mistborn/Mistings seem to do so at a young age (he mentions something to vin about who she runs into having more training than her). Is it just assumed that noblemen will Snap at some point in their youth?
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No, the nobleman are very keen on learning if their kids are allomancers or not. In fact, it's mentioned several times that they have a tradition of allomantic "hazing" where they purposefully take their kids and beat the snot out of them at a really young age. Straff Venture had Elend properly brutalized, but nothing came of it.
I'm pretty darn sure that the bead of unknown metal at the Well is what made El an allomancer. Of course, he'd still have to "snap" to become one--and I'd say that being stabbed by the Mist Spirit and almost dying are pretty traumatic.
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I totally agree with Shrain and Comatose.
I believe also that the snapping has to be provoke by a life threatening action. Or more exactly, as it seems to be a common pictures with magics, that blood has to flow somehow.
As to the harder the trauma, I don't think so.
"The only Allomancers I had, I sent against you months ago," Cett said with a sigh. "They were all I ever had, my only hope of killing you. Even they weren't from my family. My whole line has been corrupted by skaa blood - Allrianne is the only Allomancer to be born to us for centuries."
After one thousand years, I trust Cett to know that Allomancy comes by blood now ( to the exception of Elend, of course ), and the purest the blood, the more powerful you are. Didn't Hammond say something like up to the 5th generation ? But yet, you have to have a first generation parent to get a mistborn ? I still do not have my MB1 back and I cant check that but it is said when Vin is still at Camon's hideout, the day following her first contact with Kelsier and Dockson.
In an attempt to answer your first question, I would suggest, that when one looses so much blood and gets so weak as to not have strength to fight back the Allomancy sleeping in them, then it can take control. Don't we see the same principle with certain type of medication, namely those used for chemo therapy. They destroy the body before they build back. Sometimes, it works perfectly well and provided you have a good base, you get the best result: a Mistborn. Someother time, when it works still perfectly well but you have a poorer base, you get the 2nd best result : a Misting. And someother time, it doesn't work at all and the person dies.
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It's really just genetics, like having blond hair. If you are blond and you marry a brunette, your kids could still be blond, but if they all marry brunettes, and their children do as well, the chances of their children being blond decreases with each generation, the same I think, is true for allomancy and feruchemy.
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I agree with Comatose (my exact thoughts as I was reading this, actually...), it has to be something genetically pre-determined, there is probably one allele pair to determine if you have the ability or not (having the ability would most likely be recessive), and another sequence of multiple genes with multiple allele possibilities that would determine the exact power the offspring had. I don't know what to make of the all or nothing phenomena... I'll have to ask my professor.
As for the occurrence of Snapping, it makes perfect sense, it's just like Channeling in the Wheel of Time (kinda), when something happens and you absolutely need it to save you, your mind delves deep into itself and pulls up whatever it can. Only difference is that being a Misting/born doesn't inevitably try to kill you.
>.<
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Well, of course, when I said the trauma thing, I didn't mean that anyone could become Allomancers if they had enough trauma. That would be just silliness. You have to already have the Allomancy in your genes to make it work.
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"Snapping," is really used in many stories with magic systems, people only discovering their abilities when endnagered or under deep emotional stress. My only wonder is, how does one tell when one has snapped, obviously it's not very obvious, Vin can't remember when exaclty she snapped, she remembers always having her luck.
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Most probably, Vin must have been very young when she did. Kelsier snapped when he was much older and he remembered perfectly. For noble kids, it could have been some members of the family telling them the story of it since it seems that it was also happening very young. Of course, it's easier to beat up a child when he is so young as not being able to defend him or herself. That is sick though. I cannot imagine a second beating up my child even if its to prove if he or she is a Misting or a Mistborn. Maybe TLR was giving incentive to nobles to get Misting of Mistborn and that is also why the family with the most Mistwhatever were living close to him.
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Vintage, I agree with you on the fact that Vin would have snapped at a very young age. My guess is when her mother killed her sister and pierced her ear. As a young child, being soaked in your sister's blood and having a stud jammed through your ear would be pretty traumatizing. Of course, living on the streets, there would be a number of opportunities for her to snap.
I don't think that the Lord Ruler encouraged allomancy though. It was only sought after so the houses could use it against each other. Rather, I would guess that the Lord Ruler didn't care one way or the other, and they were just such an advantage in all the politicking going on that the nobles were desperate to find them. So, they resorted to beating children to find allomancers.
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It's also easy in book where most of the main characters are allomancer to forget that they are exceedingly rare, for the whole noblepopulation of Luthadel, probably only 20% were allomancer, and probably only like 5% of the skaa. An even smaller percentage are mistborn. Think about it, house Venture, the most powrful hous, had one mistborn. The only house we've seen with more is elariel, which had 2. A house without allomancer is vulnerable, so i think that's pretty stron incentive to make sure there isn't a hidden allomancer who's talents are being wastedin your house.
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That and it helps Brandon emphasize just how much of bastards most of these people are... They hit their kids for an advantage over their friends and neighbors, thats a little messed up.
Vin had AMPLE chances to Snap throughout her childhood, but considering the level of trauma it took Kel (months after facing near-certain death against TLR and some Inquies), the only major situation I could point out would be when her sister got killed. Unless we want to raise the issue of "Does everyone have a different Snapping threshold?" which would probably be the case, just like everyone has a different tolerance for pain.
I'm tired and babbling at this point, but I get this itchy feeling that that is when you lot accomplish your best theorizing... ^^
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Unless we want to raise the issue of "Does everyone have a different Snapping threshold?" which would probably be the case, just like everyone has a different tolerance for pain.
I actually hadn't thought of that. I like it though, and it makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways.
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I completely agree about everyone having a different Snapping threshold. In fact, I might take it a step further and say that for a given person, the trauma that causes Snapping may not necessarily even be the most traumatic event in his life to date. That is, a person may not Snap until he is somehow ready to Snap, then when the right trauma comes along, it happens.
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Think about it, house Venture, the most powrful hous, had one mistborn.
Are you sure? (I haven't read WoA yet, so I guess this comes from there). I'm just remembering, after the assassination attempt on Elend that Vin heads off, when Elend goes and sees Clubs shop, when he comes back and his father tells him the story, he mentions how some of the guards thought they'd seen a third mistborn fighting the other two, and how it probably wasn't true, as "it wasn't one of ours", not the "one of", suggests that house Venture has more than one.
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That would be the implication, but we haven't seen any others, and this quote from straff is also pretty convincing.
MB2, Chapter 27, page 253 at the top.
That wasn't it at all. More mistresses meant more chldren. And more children, born from a high noble line like his, meant more allomancers. He'd only spawned one Mistborn, but there were many mistings.
That about did it for me. He could just be referring to "one of our allomancers."
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This is an interesting point.
I think Straff did only give birth to one Mistborn (if you don't count Elend). However, I think that it's very logical that there could of been a Mistborn in his house that wasn't one of his offspring. We know that the great houses had several nobles living in them. It's probably safe to say they weren't all from the same family.
Doesn't he make a point about Zane is the only one he would trust because it's his own blood?
The point also goes to thinking that with what he was doing in MB2, he would of brought every Mistborn he had control over.
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That quote, along with the fact that Zane is the only Venture mistborn we actually see (and you would think we would see more given the circumstances if there were any) I am inclined to believe Zane is the only one. I seem to remember Straff saying this specifically, but I couldn't find the passage, so I used that one.
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Well, assuming that Houses in TFE are like their counterparts in most other books (like WoT), then they would likely be composed of people who were 3rd or 4th cousins, and probably even a few times removed beyond that. What Straff seems to be saying is that there aren't any others in his direct bloodline, yet earlier implications are that there are other Mistborn in the service of the House (which is entirely sensical), most likely from a different branch of the family.
Back to the genetics aspect for a minute as my mind wanders... Do you think it takes having an affirmative gene combination for each of the powers to become Mistborn, or would it be a separate gene all to itself? I guess the former would explain their rarity...
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I would think there are all sorts of ways to explain how inherited allomantic traits are passed down. However, I think what happened to Elend was different. I believe that first generation allomancers (those who ingested the bead) became Mistborn instantly. From that point on, the genetic traits that are passed on become less potent as they are mixed with non allomancers. This trend would eventually lead to the extinction of allomantic abilities, unless new first gen allomancers are created with the bead. This could be used to support theories that Allomancy existed in history long before TLR, but had eventually been bred out and everyone eventually forgot about it.
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I thought it was fairly well concluded that the bead was what did it... Guess that's what I get for assuming. Anyway, I agree that it must have gotten weaker, but it's interesting theory that it existed before and came back do to an action taken by TLR... Maybe allomancy is a thing of Preservation, and when Ruin had control last, it repressed it?
That brings on another theory now that I think about it... what if all those people the mists started to attack, but didn't, were unSnapped mistings and mistborn?
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That brings on another theory now that I think about it... what if all those people the mists started to attack, but didn't, were unSnapped mistings and mistborn?
Or, what if the ones that the mists DID kill were unSnapped Allomancers?
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I wrote in a post about that a while back. I went more along the lines of people who were unknowingly drawing upon the mists, and because they were unaware of what they were doing, just kept absorbing it until they either died or passed out. I thought that this would explain why not everyone dies who is affected. Some just have a seizure and walk away. Ruin wouldn't be that sloppy. If It decided to kill someone, it wouldn't screw it up.
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Well, we know the Allomancers are connected to the mists, and we've never seen it take agressive action toward any of the allomancers we know, so doesn't it stand to reason that maybe the mists can't be used as a tool to attack them?
Here's an insane, completely out there thought: maybe the ones that survived were Hemalurgists, made by accident... you know, like stabbing a nail through a leg, etc. :P (J/k, mostly)
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Another insane thought for our collection ? Maybe those who survived where Atium Mistings... They couldn't know since they were skaa and Atium was so expensive.
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I know that it is popular belief that the bead gave Elend the power of Allomancy. But, What if the mist were not the deepness? What if the mist spirit itself was the one who granted Elend the power, And the bead that Elend swallowed was simply just pewter, being that was what he needed to survive. How many times does it say that A mistborns place is in the mist, What if Vin was wrong about the mist being the deepness? It does give a general reason of what mist could do, to destroy the land. But what if mist was the very thing that brought about an allomancer? What if the mist spirit itself was the very enemy of the ruin, The one Who chose, and granted allomancy. I know this theory has many flaws being that there are evil allomancers, But in truth. Does not every person have the ability to choose what course there lives take, whether good or evil? Maybe the mist spirit is The representation of good and Ruin the Representation of Evil. Each one granting power to those It finds capable, Each one having its own power to give out. I know this does not have much to do with snapping, But it could be that What we thought was snapping from trauma and gaining the powers of allomancey, could in fact be the mist spirit giving power to those it knew would eventually rise up. And the Ruin giving power to those it knew it could use like the inquisitors.
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Isix, I believe that this post should have been placed in the mist thread. Nevertheless, I will try to answer a few, just a few of your questions (and if I know myself, I will end up with more questions lol).
I do not think it is only a popular belief that the bead gave Elend its powers. Analysis of the text are, to me and to many, quite evident. If the bead that Vin gave Elend was pewter, Vin would have recognized it for what it is. She did not know that metal. That takes care of that question, I think. Elend found pewter when Vin gave him her vial to help him swallow the bead. In MB1 you will find much on the fact of snapping and if you read again this thread, you will even find quotes.
The only thing that is certain about the Mist Spirit is that it can use allomancy, not transmit it. The mist seems also to be agreeing with the allomancers, supporting and giving comfort, but is being repelled by those having hemalurgy modification (i.e. Inquisitors, Zane and Vin).
Would everybody agree on this ?
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My one thing, Vintage, is that the mist spirit cannot for sure use allomancy. It possibly could, as vin feels it giving pulses when burning bronze, but she is unable to determine what metal it is. This makes me think that is just more of an allomancy-mists connection.
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When Elend meets the Mist Spirit the very first time, it soothes him. It does use allomancy.
The mist figure continued to point.
"What ?" Elend asked, his own voice sounding haunting in the silent air.
It stepped forward, arm still raised. Elend put a useless hand to his sword, but held his ground.
"Tell me what you wish of me !" he said forcefully.
The thing pointed again. Elend cocked his head. It certainly didn't seem threatening. In fact, he felt an unnatural feeling of peace coming from it.
Allomancy ? he thought. It's Pulling on my emotions !
I just re-read this morning :P
Edit :
Sazed confirms it also.
Yet the mist spirit was demanding ; it paused to catch his attention if it lost him. It could simply be leading him to his death. And yet... he felt a trust for it that he could not explain.
Allomancy ? he thought. Pulling on my emotions ?
MB2 p. 561
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All right, Cool. I didn't remember those passages. Most excellent