Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Kelsier on April 11, 2008, 03:33:32 PM
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After reading Mistborn 1 and 2 for the second time, I've come up with a list of possible Mistborn 3 plot points.
Inquisitor-Keepers
Near the end of Mistborn 2, a Terris refugee explains to Elend that the Synod has been destroyed. The Keepers are dead. He is not, however, sure how many of them still live. He says it's hard to say, as the Inquisitors have taken the bodies. This last statement leads me to my theory. Is it possible the Inquisitors are going to make new brethren out of Keepers? If so, these Inquisitors could be as dangerous as the Lord Ruler.
Koloss Nails
These are mentioned only briefly in the second novel. I missed this the first time I read it through. However, it is there. On page 252, Sazed glances across his desk. On it is "a pile of strange metal nails taken from Koloss bodies." The book does not elaborate; in fact, that is the only time this is mentioned. I have a feeling, however, that this is going to be explained in Mistborn 3.
Statlin City
One page 261, Elend and Vin find a mural. It is a sheet of metal. On it is carved a map of the Dominance, and just outside of Luthadel, a small city is circled. This is Statlin City. Is it possible the atium is there? If not, why is it circled? This is obviously going to play a key factor in the plot of Mistborn three.
So there you have it. I didn't bother pointing out the obvious things—Vin's power, the mists, the well. We all know these things must be resolved. However, I figured I'd get something up here to point out the things less frequently discussed. If you have any plots to add to this—or any comments on my theories—feel free to post them here.
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Well, all of those points are definitely things that will be discussed. I couldn't see them just being forgotten.
I'll probably add a few more things a little later when I have more time. I know, however, that the majority of the book will deal with getting Cett's kingdom back from an obligator--and I don't know that because I have some mysterious "in" with Brandon. It was just mentioned in an annotation.
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As far as the Inquisitor-Keeper thing goes I dont think they killed all of them or almost all of them to make new inquisitors. I think that like the Lord Ruler whatever came out of the well has no need of people who can recall memories from days long past. I believe there is already evidence that it manipulated age old prophecies. So, it is just having the Keepers eliminated to prevent it's secrets(whatever they may be) from being revealed some time in the future. I don't know if it's a good idea when dealing with a fantasy novel but I'm just following Ockham's Razor on this....
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The Keepers thing is puzzling to me. Maybe it is punishment for Rashek's actions. It would seem that there would be no concern for the Keeper's, as their metal minds can be manipulated so that any knowledge left that could hurt the Well Spirit could be changed or erased. Using them to create more inquisitors is an intriguing idea.
Did you notice that the mural was carved in metal? Interesting, isn't it? Rashek obviously knew of Ruin's abilities, and made sure this particular information could not be changed. Whatever is there, it was of great importance to Rashek.
The Koloss nails make and interesting Hemallurgy arguement. The one thing I don't know is how they get them. Since they can produce offspring, are the nails added after birth, or do they somehow just have them?
Now I'll throw something really wild out there. If the nail in the Koloss is what allowed Vin to control them, then there must be a nail in all kandra, as well. Not only that, but does that mean that Vin could possibly take control of an Inquisitor is she had enough power? Muwahahahahah!!! EUOL called us crazy, might as well go with it.
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Now I'll throw something really wild out there. If the nail in the Koloss is what allowed Vin to control them, then there must be a nail in all kandra, as well. Not only that, but does that mean that Vin could possibly take control of an Inquisitor is she had enough power? Muwahahahahah!!! EUOL called us crazy, might as well go with it.
Nicely done! It really does make sense though. Think about it, maybe that is how the well spirit controls the Inquisitors as well as how it spoke to Zane....
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What happens to the keepers has been touched upon in a thread, the hemalurgy or mists thread I think, anyway, good points. Statlin city, is I'm guessing where the atium is, but you know brandon and his plot twists, if things keep goin as they are they will never find this stuff. That Vin-nail-control theory sounds interesting. It would back up that the well spirit and the mist spirit use allomancy, just really powerful, it would also show why the lord ruler was so powerful (not just that he was the first allomancer, and could heal instantly- he also mgiht have recieved an allomatic boost from the well's power, when the lord ruler dies, the well gets it's allomancy back, and BOOM, it can control things again!!! It's just the sort of paralell that brandon loves, like in Elantris with the Aons- the land- and the city.
I'll probably add a few more things a little later when I have more time. I know, however, that the majority of the book will deal with getting Cett's kingdom back from an obligator--and I don't know that because I have some mysterious "in" with Brandon. It was just mentioned in an annotation.
Which annotation, I'd like to read it, I thought I read them all.
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Could I join the CotCO (Circle of the Crazy Ones) ?
I think somehow there must be a link between the Inquisitors and the Koloss but maybe not that obvious. Reading you gave me the idea.
Kelsier's brother (shame on me, I forgot his name) hated the Inquisitors but to get to know how to destroy them, became one of them. Now, changes occured in him that he didn't want for sure. He became bloodthristy and violent... as the Koloss are, please note. Hold to that.
The inquisitors have 11 nails in them and they all have the powers of full Mistborns eventhough they were not to start with. Now, we know that it is not hard to 'make' a mistborn, a simple swallow ! But what are the fonctions of those eleven nails ? I would suggest this : Each nail is made of a different metal. Being inside the body but yet visible on the outside (obviously not when they're dressed). Could it be possible that being inside the body a regular allomancer could not take power over eventhough they are also outside ? Could it be because it allows them to burn metal without having to ingest some right in the middle of a fight ?
Now the Koloss have only one nail. Bad memory to my account, I don't remember what Poor Breezie Dear burns... (bronze ?) that allows him to suggest or enhanced feelings. What would happen if that nail would be of that metal or its alloy ? Would it not provide a mean of control over the beast ? Isn't it how Vin takes control when she adds duralumin ? Doesn't she void all feelings ? When she takes control, they become docile and obedient, to her of course. How about if they would have that nail but not the capacity to burn it ? If it would be THE mean of control ?
Same for the inquisitors. Their blood thirst has to be explained somehow as a reaction to their allomancy. M... was not like that and hated them because they were. He wouldn't change intentionaly. It is obvious to me he just can't help it.
The idea with the Kandra is interesting but somehow... Like Vin could draw from the Mist and Kandra is linked somehow with the Mist, I do not think it needs a nail, just like the Mist does not need metal but can be a substitute, the Mist not being an invention of the Lord Ruler, that is. The Mist Spirit is also interesting to see. I was wondering, when Elend and Spook were coming back from the North, Elend sees the Mist often and comes to believe that it is not evil. Vin doubts because she saw it with a knife floating over him and she was sure it wanted to kill Elend. However, during their long walk back, the Mist was there, Vin not in the way, and it did not attack. To do so, it waited for Vin to be around. I have the feeling that the Mist Spirit has a mind of its own and that it's power is against the well's power. It needed a knight of somesort let's say, to fight its combat...
Moreover, in Mistborn 1, we have the journal of the so called 'hero of ages' that turned out not to be the One. In Mistborn 2, we have the account of Rashek's uncle written in metal because it is the only thing that is stable and won't change. The Hero would not have taken the power for himself, but Rashek did. All the prophecies (modified by the Lord Ruler over his thousand years - including those of the Keepers) did say, that the power was not to be taken by the hero... but Rashek did. Didn't the record of Rashek's uncle say that the power had to be taken ? Which is the evil one ? The Mist Spirit or the Well's power ? Which is the good one ?
I might not make sense very much... as I said, I AM crazy...
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I think you just did 8). You have some great theories there. I especially like the ones that I have mentioned in other threads. Another disciple is born! I will answer a couple of your questions, but you should also reference the following threads to catch up:
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5745.0
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5739.0
http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5736.0
There should be plenty of craziness to occupy you in those. Some of us believe that Hemallurgy is the lynch pin for most of what we don't yet understand. We are pretty confident that Marsh's sudden change is due directly to the influence of the Well spirit, or Ruin, as we have learned to call it. Ruin can influence metalminds, writings on anything not etched in steel, and can also "communicate" with Hemallurgical beings. This seems to be directly related to the amount of metal in one's body. Alendi and Vin only feel the Well's pulse. Zane hears "God" telling him to kill everyone but Vin, and the Inquisitors, including Marsh, are almost completely under Its control. If you reread the fight scene between Marsh and Sazed you begin to understand that Marsh is not in control of his actions.
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Well... you did not work much to make a disciple, I'd say ! lol
Thanks for the links. I am afraid these are not the only one I'll have to read. I am afraid to have to read again both Mistborn books - well afraid because I just can seem to do anything else when I read see... and I should work a bit on my translations... I hate passion. It always gets in the way ;D and why am I always so far behind ? ...
Would you know if something like a concordance is being worked on ? That would certainly help with research.
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there are the annotations on Brandon's website. He has posted up to Mistborn 2 Chapter 27. They give some good background on each chapter and section of the books thus far. I don't know if there is any Mistbornopedia planned, but if there is, it's probably on hold while A Memory of Light is written.
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Twenty nine actually. Welcome Vintage, enjoy those threads, there's some great stuff on them.
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Thank you all !
Yes, 29. I read some, not all yet, but I'm coming to it. Brandon has some sense of Humor, hey ? lol Sometimes he tells things right out and so straight you just don't connect things, just like the first time he speaks of Ore Seur and of traitor right in the same paragraph, in the same annotation...
There are a few things I would like to submit to the thinking of this very noble assembly. It's just there, bugging me. Let's put the prophecy aside as Chaos reminded us - Now I have to read the books again so just bare with me a sec. I have no proof and not much to found my delirium upon.
There was suppose to have renown for the one who discovers the Hero of Ages... so here is the thought
How about Vin would be the one to find the Hero of Ages, and Elend would be that hero ? Is there a thread that discuss this possible point or am I just to ill advanced to hope of any redemption for my poor brain ? After all, we are learning through Brandon's annotations that Elend is learning to be a leader. Why would he have to learn that ? Why would another leader not good enough ? Moreover, why would he need to be a full Mistborn for ? Let's just pretend that the Mist created Mistborns to fight the Well of Ascension. Let's just pretend that Rashek knew he had to take the power and that the Mist was its alley and not his ennemy ? His whole "palace" was decorated with mist kind of patterns. Isn't the flag high enough ? Now we learn of a lot of things that the Lord Ruler was dealing with successfully while alive - wooden small habitations for skaa - easy to heat up in winter - good management of the food supply so nobody would ever really starve - on a permanent diet, yes, but not really starving, etc... So he wasn't totally evil eventhough he had to be harsh. Why did he have to be that harsh ? Dunno. Why did he want to annihilate feruchemy so much that he had to control reproduction to erase it ? Dunno... well, I think I know but. Let's just say he wasn't all evil and that his last words where really true, the words of an old dying man that knows his end has come. So... let's just pretend that the Deepness wasn't the mist at all, but the evil deepness of the Well of Ascension, its depth and power. Back to Elend. How about if the Mist had to nearly kill him in order for him to snap and become a Full Mistborn and of the purest kind since he received a pure first hand mistborn creating drop to swallow ? How about feruchemy could be a stumble to succeed definitively over the Well of Ascension (and therefore TLR had to keep fighting its raising again) and that would be the reason why TLR was doing exactly the same thing than Elend's father was doing but with a higher calling ? (That man had no fear, I tell you, or he was a great gambler ! ) Raising himself an army of Mistings and Mistborns to fight the Well on its next opening ? Of course, he had to make sure it would be of the purest sources so he would watch over the procreation of these also, encouraging marriage between nobles whom he had given the privilege of being Mistborns, and rejecting mixing with Skaa which had nothing like that. With all the pottery that was broken and so few beads available, we could think he had to limit the original number of privileged one.
Told you, delirium...
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I like the enthusiasm, though! :) Something the Lord Ruler says to Marsh gives a very strong clue to his personality. I don't remember the exact quote at the moment, but he basically talks about dominating the world. Rashek's entire philosophy is based on control. All of his creations have a built-in kill switch. He controls the nobles by controlling all business through his Obligators. The power he received only bolstered his existing beliefs. The Skaa were fed because starving people do not work effectively, and they tend to die faster than they can reproduce.
I have changed my mind on why Feruchemists were being bred out. I don't think TLR was really that concerned about someone gaining an Allomancy/Feruchemy hybrid ability. I think book 2 shows his real motivation. Ruin was nearly released because it manipulated metalminds. Culling Feruchemists out of the Terris race would remove a weapon fromt he Well Spirit's arsenal.
I have to disagree with the whole TLR offspring theory. He did not need an army, all he needed was to make sure he took the power again the next time it appeared. This is why he built the palace over the well.
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Well, I'm glad the new disciple got that right ;D At least, it seems logical that way. I was thinking that maybe his feruchemy was giving TLR something of a taint (Well, after all I came through TWoT) and that was why he had to keep on fighting the Well down. So this would have been the reason why he would have needed an army of Mitborn (preferably) and Mistings, for the final battle.
But you know, if TLR would not care so much about someone gaining allomancy/feruchemy ability, maybe that is not what gives him so much power, after all. We can doubt everything, right ? I'll dig it some more. I've started to read... the other way around, starting by the reading of that metal sheet, end of Mistborn 2. How do you call it ?
Poor Sazed though. Instead of not believing anything anymore, he should just learn not to trust himself. After all, we are often our worst enemy !
Edit - I just saw I was an assitant cathedral sweeper... rofl
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I think the lord ruler was definately trying to prevent someone from attaining both powers and challenging him, I don't htink think he would do it just the get rid of metal minds that ruin can use. The only things he feels passionate about besides control and power are his own people, he wanted them to be dominant, but once he had allomancy, he had to choose, between making his own people dominant, and maintaining his power forever.
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Where do you see that he had to choose between these two choices ? To me, they are not obligatory against one another. He could very well do both. Especially if he thought after whatever happened at the well, that Feruchemy could be, not an assett, but the opposite. Whatever. Let me read. lol
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If he had given the Terris people Dominance, they would have had too much freedom and they could have interbred with those who have allomancy, which would provide a challenger to his power, if he wanted to be secure the Terros people had to be controlled, and by locking ruin away again and limitng his influence the Lord Ruler took away Feruchemy weakness, but that's probably still why he made sure to wipe out the Terris religion, he couldn't leave the possigility of ruin finding some way to to free himself. With the propehcy gone, Ruin couldn't do as much damage, it wasn't until Sazed started rediscovering it that Ruin was able to manipulate him.
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Exactly, and the steel plaque in the Conventical of Seran could have been a reminder of that weakness, along with Alendi's journal, although I don't know how that avoided manipulation.
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Actually, I'm starting to think exactly in that direction... If everything that is not set in metal can be manipulated, can't Alendi's journal have been ? And also, we know because it is indicated in Mistborn 1 and 2, that the obligators and Inquisitors did play with history. But having the steel plaque right in the Conventical, they knew the truth (and Marsh too by the time he brought Sazed with him). So why would they hide something like that ? After all, what would the truth change for them had it be known ? I remember quite vividly when Sazed and Tindwhil were working on the rubbing translation, you remember, this little piece of paper that was torn off repeatedly ? The last sentence of the corrupted text ? Could it not have been the Mist spirit trying to bring attention to it ? - Do not forget that for me, it is not the Mist that is the bad guy, but the Well spirit. I am quite sure they fight one against the other - In other words, trying to force Sazed to go back to the steel plaque ?
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Yes, that's what the mist spirit was doing, I'm pretty sure Sazed realizes that later. I don't think Alendi's journal was manipulated, I think the Lord Ruler would have protected it, and I think he kept it as is. It was a remindero fhte man he had killed, and probably a reference. HE was impersonating the hero after all. Also, if you notice, the little quotations before the chapters are all un manipulated in MB2, and the one's in MB1 match up, so I think we can trust the log book.
Speaking of the log book, there's that metal lake we haven't figured out yet...
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Ahhh, the metal lake again. Anyway, that is exactly what happened. The Mist Spirit was doing everything possible to prevent The release of the Well Spirit (Ruin). It stabbed one of Alendi's companions (though not fatally) to try to steer Alendi away. Why would they hide the truth? Because it gave TLR an advantage. He could write his own history to fit his needs. Besides, he wouldn't want people to find out his own race were so easily fooled.
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Ahhh, the metal lake again. Anyway, that is exactly what happened. The Mist Spirit was doing everything possible to prevent The release of the Well Spirit (Ruin). It stabbed one of Alendi's companions (though not fatally) to try to steer Alendi away. Why would they hide the truth? Because it gave TLR an advantage. He could write his own history to fit his needs. Besides, he wouldn't want people to find out his own race were so easily fooled.
Are you saying the log book is true or false? I still think it's true, personally, and you guys are forgettin, the only people who know the terris people were fooled are the lord ruler, Kwaan, Sazed, Vin, and the others, and the logbook says nothing about the terris being fooled, Alendi truly believes he is the hero. why tamper with a document which does nothing to diminish the lrod ruler's claims?
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I think the log book is true, as well. The only reason I can think of would be to help find TLR's weakness so he could be defeated, seeing as he was in the way of Ruin's freedom. There are two points here. First, if it benefitted Ruin to change the log book, which we believe did not happen, for whatever reason. Vintage also asked why TLR wouldn't tell the truth about Alendi and Ruin. That's what I was answering.
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I just finished WoA, and only read through MB1 a couple weeks ago, but I had a few thoughts.
How did Rashek know what to do when he reached the Well? Or did he *not* know what to do at the Well and decided to take control for himself? The idea that he didn't know what to do at the Well doesn't sit well with me (pun not intended) because the Final Empire seems too deliberate for there to be no deliberate action on Rashek's part. However, I also find it hard to believe that Kwaan would have told Rashek to leave the world as he eventually did. I wonder if we'll get Rashek epigraphs in MB3.
This, I think, touches on the big unanswered questions about the metaphysics of the Mistborn-verse. Normally in fantasy novels, there's a prophesy and it's fulfilled, albeit in a circuitous way. Here, we don't even know if the Hero of Ages prophesy existed or if it was created by Ruin during some millenial cycle or another. Further, how does sensing the Well tie into the Hero of Ages prophesy? Both Vin and Alendi seem to have sensed the Well--which could imply that Alendi was indeed the Hero of Ages. But if Alendi was a Hero of Ages then Kwaan also made a mistake by having Rashek kill him.
This brings me to my pet loony theory is that Ruin has to be released at the Well--despite Kwaan's account--in order to save the world. The sense of wrongness about Rashek's Final Empire implies that the way to defeat Ruin isn't simply to use the power at the Well. The Hero of Ages must do something with the power, but what?
The magics of Mistborn-verse seem key to this. The Deepness can't really be understood without Allomancy, but Allomancy didn't exist until after Rashek took the power at the Well. Ruin seems to have power of Feruchemy but not Allomancy. I think one important question is whether Hemalurgy also was created at the Well. Or another way, are Allomancy and Hemalurgy like the Kandra/Koloss dichotomy, embodying the two sides to the world's mythos?
The Mist Spirit is another character that seems questionable in the Ruin/Preservation mythos. If it is connected to Ruin, as the jacket tag for MB3 describes, why did it show Vin how to save Elend?
Lastly, on Kwaan, isn't in interesting that we don't know his fate? Was he killed when Rashek remade the world or did he survive into the Final Empire?
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Jacket Tag? What Jacket Tag?
I agree that the final empire seems deiberate, I thnk the lord ruler was trying to limit ruin's influence by keeping the world stable. I think Ruin and Preservation draw power from the state of the world, and the Lord Ruler was able to keep Ruin chained by stabilizing the world.
And we just know Brandon is going to throw som big twist in like that, who knkow maybe Ruin is just misundertsood ;)
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I didn't see this anywhere else so I thought I would add it to this thread since Jacket Tag is mentioned. Taken from the Amazon site.
Who is the Hero of Ages?
To end the Final Empire and restore freedom, Vin killed the Lord Ruler. But as a result, the Deepness---the lethal form of the ubiquitous mists---is back, along with increasingly heavy ashfalls and ever more powerful earthquakes. Humanity appears to be doomed.
Having escaped death at the climax of The Well of Ascension only by becoming a Mistborn himself, Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world. Vin is consumed with guilt at having been tricked into releasing the mystic force known as Ruin from the Well. Ruin wants to end the world, and its near omniscience and ability to warp reality make stopping it seem impossible. She can’t even discuss it with Elend lest Ruin learn their plans!
The conclusion of the Mistborn trilogy fulfills all the promise of the first two books. Revelations abound, connections rooted in early chapters of the series click into place, and surprises, as satisfying as they are stunning, blossom like fireworks to dazzle and delight. It all leads up to a finale unmatched for originality and audacity that will leave readers rubbing their eyes in wonder, as if awaking from an amazing dream.
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^^That's what I meant by "jacket tag."
Knowing how much Brandon likes religion, I've been thinking about how Ruin/Preservation might be similar to other sorts of dualisms. I may be wrong, but most dualist frameworks I'm familiar with tend to emphasize the importance of both aspects of the dyad--Good and Evil, order and chaos, saidin and saidar (little WoT reference). It's always about how both are necessary for the world to function. That's where I get my loony theory. If Ruin was "trapped" and the Final Empire is pretty close to pure Preservation, well, Preservation can also be stagnation without a little bit of chaos every once in a while. Maybe it's not so much about recapturing Ruin as it is rebalancing the dyad?
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That actually makes a lot of sense to me.
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I got the feeling that there was no winning with the Well.
Vin was definitely not supposed to release it, because it turns out to be Ruin. But if she had used it, she could easily have turned out as another Lord Ruler.
Maybe she really did have to release it in order to subsequently defeat it in the final book, otherwise the world would have simply been reformed by "heroes" for all the rest of eternity.
I think Vin=Hero of Ages is just a little too... cliche? I mean, these books are supposed to be about "What if the hero of prophecy failed?" Somehow, I think there shouldn't even be a Hero of Ages, just someone strong and dedicated enough to face the big bad and save the world. The title implies I'm wrong though...
Sorry if someone has already said this... I just got here under an hour ago, and I don't have time to read everything on the forum. Not yet anyway. ;D
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Actually, I did post that description before, but it was quite some time ago and its now on the 3rd page of the forum. Here (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5815.0)
I don't think the Hero is a fabrication, at least not completely a fabrication. There has to be some truth to it (besides, I've already posted a theory somewhere that says Ruin couldn't have created the entire prophecy from scratch).
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I think it depends how the "millenial" cycle works. If every thousand years the Well fills and gives Ruin a chance to influence the world and free itself, assuming Ruin is immortal, all it needs to do is wait and build. One cycle it creates a prophesy, another it creates the Deepness, another it alters the prophesy. Ruin could have created the prophesy 1,000 years before Kwaan/Alendi/Rashek/et al, knowing that it would be disregarded in the first cycle, but powerful in the next cycle. Then precisely because of how Kwaan stopped Alendi, it guaranteed that only vague memories of what actually happened remained, and Ruin found itself able to manipulate a little more--enough to convince Vin to do what she did.
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About what is said on the jacket tag, where does it say the mist spirit is linked to Ruin, I thought I knew what you meant, but you said that it described the mist spirit being related to ruin, but I didn't see anything that indicated this, only that Ruin is linked to the mists.
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Yeah, I got a little caught up in what I was saying. We know something in or about the mists is killing people. I assumed it was somehow related to mist spirit. We don't know if that's true or not.
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Though the mist spirit denies any involvement in the slayings, when Sazed asks it.
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hmm...something interesting here. There are two possibilities:
-either the mist spirit lied, which i think is unlikely,
-or there is more than one type of mist.
After all, we know that sometimes the mist kills, sometimes it attacks without killing, and sometimes it does nothing. We also see that the mist spirit is actively seeking to prevent ruin from escaping. Also the kandra/mistwraiths are "of" preservation....whether they might be related to the mist spirit is yet to be seen.
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You guys should read the mist topic, sorry I'm not good with links it should be on this page or the next one, or somewhere around there, and we've delved a lot int othe mists strange duality, we've also done this in the ruin in preservation thread as well, so try them out!
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The link to The Mists thread. (http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5782.0)
It's on the second page of the forum. There are certainly a lot of different topics here, so pretty important threads get lost in the shuffle.
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hmm i tend to derail threads a lot don't I :-\ Anyway it was my understanding that this one is a sort of collection of everything that needs to be resolved in MB3?
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Or that we think might be tied up, yes. :)