Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Arabas on April 09, 2008, 06:49:02 PM
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First time post so be gentle ;)
Just finished Mistborn The Final Empire and loved it. I can't wait to read Well of Ascension now.
I do have one nagging question and please remember that I have not read Well of Ascension, so no spoilers please.
The question is about the Lord Ruler's death. He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct? Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.
Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings. I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)
If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered? Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?
If this question is answered in some fashion in the other books in the series please ignore the question.
Thanks in advance.
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I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.
The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.
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That's always been my assumption--that he wanted people to think that he couldn't be killed in any of those ways, when the reality is that it's just very difficult to get him into one of those positions to begin with, because of his allomantic and feruchemical powers.
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I haven't read any of the others yet either (waiting til 3 is out before picking up 2)... But I have to say that one thing that writers are prone to do in order to create an unexpected twist is to feed you information through a character... It is convenient if you do it often, because you can feed stuff that is true, but slip in the occasional red herring as well...
We never actually see (to my recollection) a non-POV scene where there is a description of this.. Just that everyone believes it is true.
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That was nagging at me as well. More so, however, were the bracelets themselves. Sazed said the Lord Ruler's power of everlasting life came from his ability to burn a metal in which Feruchemical powers were stored. If this is the case, why would removing the bracelets kill him? Wouldn't he be burning these bracelets, rather than wearing them? And if he is wearing them, how is he able to store up so much age? Is it simply because they were made of atium?
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That's an excellent point, Kelsier. It doesn't make sense. Unless of course those bracelets also had Hemallurgy powers. What you wrote actually convinces me that the Lord Ruler was using all three magic systems. If Feruchemy and Allomancy together can give him enhanced abilities, then mixing Hemallurgy in should do the same thing.
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My understanding was that he was basically taking the age, putting it into metal with Feru (probably explaining why the vast stores of atium that everyone was expecting didn't exist, again, I haven't read book 2-3, so don't correct me if I'm wrong :)) and then burning that with Allo in order to get put it into the bracers via Feru in more measured doses... At least that was my guess... Though, it might have been a good idea to have a bit of Atium on hand to pop like a diabetic pops candy, 'just in case'...
Realistically though, when you're a God King and basically control the history of the world for the last 1000 years, you probably don't expect to be assaulted in your own castle...
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And if he is wearing them, how is he able to store up so much age? Is it simply because they were made of atium?
I think that whenever he was not out in public he stored away health/age. Back when Kelsier and Vin stormed Kredik Shaw to get into that room, the one where Kelsier was once captured trying get into, all they find is an old man in a room. This old man is the Lord Ruler and he is being protected by the inquisitors as he stores his health/age into the bracelets...
As for the beheading and dismembering thing I agree with a couple of the others here that it's just a ploy,added to all of his real abilities, to make him seem invincible.
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My understanding was that he was basically taking the age, putting it into metal with Feru (probably explaining why the vast stores of atium that everyone was expecting didn't exist, again, I haven't read book 2-3, so don't correct me if I'm wrong :)) and then burning that with Allo in order to get put it into the bracers via Feru in more measured doses
That is a very good theory, actually. If the age stored is more potent when burned with Allomancy, then he could store the enhanced power and use it to stay young indefinitely. He could even possibly decrease his age, if he wanted to. I still think that Hemallurgy played some part, but it may not have been as significant as I believe.
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That's my point, though. If the Lord Ruler was burning age-enhancing atium, why did he die when Vin pulled his bracelets off? You can't burn metals externally—at least, that's not how it's explained in the books. If he was using the bracelets to stay alive, how could they have given him the magnified power of age, as Sazed has theorized? Wouldn't he have had to be burning them for the extra power? That's what I don't get.
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Huh. That's an excellent point: how could he "burn" things that just touched his body? It's possible that the Lord Ruler has extra powers we don't know about yet. Brandon has sort of inferred that there are things we don't know yet from annotations.
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I was under the impression that The Lord Ruler had his age defying bracelets pierced directly through his skin, which would allow him to draw the powers that were stored in them whenever he wanted.
It could also be that I have no idea what I am talking about, as my wife likes to remind me of. :D
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I'm pretty sure that he draws upon the bracelets feruchemically. It's only when he's recharging them that he swallows some feruchemically-charged atium and burns it allomantically--a rapid recharge process he doesn't need to do very often.
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It's all explained at the end of book one. The lord ruler stores up a certain amount of age, burns the metal with the age, gains 10X as much youth as he stored, if he used it all at once, he would be a baby, so, he stores the excess in the bracelets. Those times when he is in his room are theo nly times he's burning feruchemical age storages, or at the end of these room visits, all the other times, he's just drawing on his reserves, which is why he was unable to stop himself from aging when Vin pulled off the bracelets, it's all explained at the end.
I have a question, did the lord ruler ever burn atium in the fight against Vin and Marsh? If so, why didn't he see Vin's attack on his bracelets coming and if not, why not?
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It doesn't say whether or not he was burning atium. Even if he was, I don't think it would have helped. He would have seen his bracelets coming off, but I don't think he would have had time to do anything about it. He was probably quiet certain that Vin was not strong enough to affect the metals pierced in his skin. A big question I have, though, is if two results are obtained by burning a metal with stored Feruchemical attributes. We are assuming that burning the age stored in the atium greatly increases the yield, but the Lord Ruler's Allomantic power suggests that the power of the metals he is burning also increases dramatically.
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I think there's something else about the lord ruler, he's the first allomancer, he's a feruchemist, so his physical sttributes are re powerful than other allomancers, and he took the power of the well, which I think mayhave affected him somehow, like the way he is able to soothe so many people into complete depression at once- something Vin can only do to one person for a moment using duralumin.
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Maybe I need to go reread the books again or go read all the various prediction threads again but do we have any proof that the Lord Ruler was the first allomancer? If so how did others then become allomancers because isn't allomancy passed down through bloodlines? I don't remember any talk of any of the Lord Rulers decendants.
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Sazed said a number of times that before the ascension, there was no allomancers. The Lord Ruler was the very first one. I also remember reading (that is scarry... I usually don't have memory !!!) that the Lord Ruler rewarded the people that helped him at the beginning by making them allomancers. From that point on, the allomancy was transmitted by bloodline and its power was going down from generation to generation due to the mixed blood. Actually, I remember this because at that time, I was wondering (and still am) if Vin wouldn't be the Lord Ruler's daughter... Can you imagine what that would imply ? That would easily explain why she is so much more powerful than Kelsier himself.
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Ahhh....Now I remember. Thanks
As for Vin being his daughter I don't think that is possible. The highest ranking obligator(forgot his name) was her father and I don't think there is any evidence to dispute that. Especially when he was confronted with her existence and didn't even try to deny he was her father.
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I do know this. But it would not be the first time that a Lord would ask its subalbtern to kill a damsel and that this one... through pity, would not. He still could believe himself the father, though, and it would explain why he did not argue... or wanted to tell the Lord Ruler "You know that girl you wanted me to kill ? Well I just could not bring me to do it after all and she is the mother of that one"... So, nothing is impossible. I might be wrong, but Vin's super power as a Mistborn has to be explained somehow.
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Vin is powerful, but nowhere near as powerful as the Lord Ruler (even with duralumin), with his massive soothing capabilities.
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Too true. Besides, if Vin is TLR's daughter, then Zane was his son, as Vin and Zane were pretty equal in the power. Kar explained that Vin was so powerful because she was of a relatively pure bloodline. That was (allegedly) one of the clues to who Vin's father was. I personally believe the Inquisitors were being manipulated by Ruin even then, although much more subtley.
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You got both good points. And I do remember that the Hero has to have royal blood as well. What made me think this is what Vin's mom said and she was herd by Reen, about Vin being a princess. Well, I should give it more thought.
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Yes. Also remember that the prophecies are completely unreliable. They change to fit the need of Ruin.
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The Lord Ruler does call her child, but that's just Terris speech patterns: Twyndil and Sazed speak like that as well. I would say that Vin is more powerful than Zane, remember when they attacked lord Cett, they did the same amount of damage, Zane used Atium, Vin did not.
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That's true, though what Zane lacks in power, he makes up for in control. Did he need to use atium in the attack? It was probably more common sense (use the tools you have available) when facing such odds.
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Also, Zane most likely did not use duralumin, and Vin used it in that fight. He would not have taken the chance that Vin would discover his knowledge of her secret weapon.
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I must dispute when Vintage said the Hero has to have royal bloodlines. In Kwaan's writings in the epigraphs of WoA, he mentions that Alendi was specifically not royal, but married a princess (essentially making him royal in that way). The prophecies said that the Hero wouldn't be royal.
Of course, since the Prophecies were manipulated, they could have said "originally" that the Hero was a royal, but that Ruin changed it to fit Alendi. So let's not look too far into those prophecies.
Changing subject!
Once again, I reference an annotation that says the Lord Ruler and Vin are powerful, but for different reasons. With the evidence provided in this topic thus far, such as the Lord Ruler soothing enormous masses of people but Vin cannot, but with Vin able to channel the mists, I can see that the Lord Ruler and Vin are actually quite different. I'm thinking that Brandon's entire thing about relating Vin to the Lord Ruler and the Hero was all just subtle deception. I'll say it again: Vin and the Lord Ruler are different. Somehow.
Part of the Lord Ruler's power comes from Feruchemy, and then some other things we don't know about. It could be something relating to Hemalurgy (before anyone disputes this, I believe I have explained my opinion that the Lord Ruler does use Hemalurgy in the Hemalurgy topic), or something else entirely.
Vin channels the mists. I'm almost wondering if the Lord Ruler could also use the mists in such a fashion. But, then, if the Lord Ruler had that ability, he certainly would know its extent, and would know if Vin could defeat him by taking off his bracers. Maybe he didn't know anyone else could use it...
Maybe that subject should go in the mists topic.
Last thing, I doubt the Lord ruler would've procreated. He made the Terris breeding programs specifically to remove Feruchemy. Since Feruchemy and Allomancy are both heriditary, any child of the Lord Ruler would have the exact same abilities. The Lord Ruler fears a powerful challenger to his authority, so I'm absolutely certain he wouldn't have kids.
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Too true. I also believe he uses Hemallurgy, as I'm sure you know. I also agree that he wouldn't want or need kids. Why pass on your power when you fully intend to live forever?
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True, Zane does have more control, but I still think Vin is more powerful. True, she used her ingenuity to beat him, but I think that in a fair extended fight, Vin would have won anyway, I'm pretty sure there's still something special about her, just not what was originally thought.
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I don't want to hold on particularly to that point, Chaos, but I never said that TLR would procreate intentionnally. He could have had some... fun... with a young lady and ask a man he thought he could trust to kill her. That someone being the man, I don't remember (my most used phrase) which title he had, could have fallen for that same young lady and found himself unable to obey TLR order's. But I agree. We shouldn't use so much the prophecy to make sense of things... so... Let me think about something different while I reread both Mistborn again.
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I'm pretty sure if the lord ruler wanted to have fun he would clean up his own messes, or send an inquisitor. Als0, I don't think the lord ruler would want to have fun. First of all, I doubt he would find anyone who is not terris unworthy of him (it says he thinks they should be dominant) and since he's put them all in breeding programs, also I think the lrod ruler would be bored with that sort of thing. He's such a powerful soother and rioter that if he wanted too he could get any woman he wanted using a combination. And he's been alive for 1000 years, and he expects to live forever, so he'd outlive any fling anyway, I think after 1000 years he'd probably be bored with just about everything, but that's just me. Like Vin said, the lrod ruler sounded, tired when he talked. He's seen and done it all.
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I agree that he would have used an Inquisitor or taken care of it himself. The woman would never leave Kredik Shaw alive. I also agree that, as a God, he would feel like he is above things like that. His absolutepower was what got him off.
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The original character from Final Empire Prime that the Lord Ruler was based on was a man who was haunted by grief over the suicide of his love a thousand before (or was it just hundreds?). I don't know if Rashek ever had any kind of love life, though.
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The way Alendi describes him, or the tone it sets, seems to indicate not, at least for me, feel free to interpret things differently. When he says that the women of the court would have found Rashek handsome, it come off to me as if Rashek would not be the type to appreciate those attractions, and not just because the women Alendi is referring to are of Khlennium. He seems to be the type who disproves of such things, and his extreme hate of other nations would probably make him difficult to live with. This is all speculation of course, but that's how Rashek's character came off too me.
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I felt the same way. He was so self-righteous sounding even then. I have to ask a question: I have a theory, but it could really mess with some people. Should I post it anyway? It is directly related to this topic.
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Go ahead Darxbane. I myself have a few theories as well related to this topic and I would not even be the least surprise if they don't cross with your future mess. Comatose made me think of something so strange, as well... I just wonder how come it did not come out yet !
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Well, I'm waiting, share your theories already! Don't worry, I can take it.