Timewaster's Guide Archive
Departments => Books => Topic started by: charity on February 02, 2008, 08:59:02 PM
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He's changed it from 3 books to 4 books. I'm probably late on the band wagon here but I just read that and thought it was interesting.
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I hadn't heard that. It did throw me that Amazon is selling the third one already, even though it doesn't come out until September. What did you think of the movie version of Eragon?
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I caught that when I was browsing amazon and then they had this little interview with him below it and I was half listening until he said that he had changed it to 4 books.
I'm semi-interested in this series, I thought the plot was rather thin, but I've been reading them none the less. I hated the movie, though, some of the acting was just painful.
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Well I guess it's better than trying to shortchange story further by squishing what would have to be the most action percentage of the story into one book. Though I don't know if I'll be able to take much more homo-erotic subtext with a straight face (and hey, that's almost a pun).
Seriously though; it's almost as funny as Heart of Darkness and the islet that rose out of the river like the curve of a naked man's back. (I mean, not *quite* though because with HoD you can apply liberal use of the phrase "[going] Gay in the Congo").
Sorry, have always found the whole "male authors accidentlly forgetting their characters 'like girls' " hilarious.
On a nother note:
Thanks for posting this thread~! I never would have found out about this otherwise!
Ps, on this way at least he'll have a chance to have all 4 active dragons on the cover (the red, blue, black and other who I'm logically expecting to be green).
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Though I don't know if I'll be able to take much more homo-erotic subtext with a straight face (and hey, that's almost a pun).
-k- I must really be missing something in the books cause I haven't a clue what you are referring to.
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Yeah... me either... ???
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Admittedly, I wasn't exactly scholarly in my reading of Paolini's stuff, but I don't really remember anything remotely homo-erotic. In fact, I remember being left with the impression that the protagonist was almost unhealthy in his fixation with the elf girl, going so far as to badger multiple other elves about it.
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yes that's more the impression I got too, that he had a childlike infatuation with a woman way to old for him. And when she tries to explain why it'll never work he casually shoves that aside, again in a very teenage manner and still pursues her. Very obnoxious, IMO.
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Oh, it's there I'm not just paranoid or whatever. Sift through book 2 and you'll pick it up.
Consider the looking at and description of Eragon's naked elf teacher - looking at it in terms of the proportion of time spent describing him rather intimately compared with the smaller amount of description and lesser degree of detail used in descibing the 'love interest' Who seems to represent much more of a courtly type of love which is representative more of an idealized worship than a physical attraction or real sort of relationship personality 'click'.
His dragon also wants to do his teachers dragon (not necessarilly as relevent but perhaps there's a hidden metaphor in there).
I mean, I read the book a while ago so I don't really remember things all that well, but if you're re-reading it just look out for it and you'll notice some little things along the way mainly in the second book.
Please, honestly this isn't a "I see subtext!" (wooOOOOooOoOOoooOOOooooo~!) type of thing, when I've talked about this with other ex-lit students they've noticed some of this as well.
[sorry for the editing I'm still sleepy so I made some typos and nonsensical sentences].
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You aren't an English major by chance, are you?
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His books aren't bad, but I've never thought them worthy of the hype they have received. There are better books at there, more original books with more unique plots and charactes.
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No I'm not an english major, I study Design/illustration actually. But, like I mentioned earlier I did read Heart of Dearkness back in highchool and picked up the undercurrent of sexual objectification of men in that book (which, is of course very amusing for a female) so when I was reading this series it was kind of a "well haven't seen that in a while...." type of thing.
There's a lot to be said for going to an all girl school because it certainly led to some fascinating discussions such as as one of the class members asking- when studying Medea, if we thought that the belief that "all women want to be sexually dominated" applied to her. Fascinating discussion with some unusual arguments - my point was more for the 'Praying Mantis' method.
But yes Girls = find homoerotic subtext hilarious.
(because it's usually the other type).
;D
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I didn't get any of the homo erotic stuff either. I thought it was obviously written by a kid, but liked the story well enough. I try to take the story at face value, and don't try and read stuff into it. I'll leave that to the english majors. :-)
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Ohmygosh. If you're seeing that kind of stuff in Paolini, you're looking for it intentionally, dude.
Anyway, Paolini is a smart kid, but he's taken a dragon by the tail and it's just too much for him to handle. Hence, a story that's over-long with a too-simple plot , stereotypical characters, and inane dialogue.
But whatever. If it gets kids to read and love fantasy, that's fine with me. I've gone back to read the Terry Brooks original Shannara books, which I loved at the time, but I read now and realize how lame they really are.
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Well considering the vast quantaties of books I read compared with the only 2 books (counting the eragon series as one and Heart of Darkness of the other) that I believe to contain this, I'd say it's not entirely existing in my head.
I mean, it may only be a very small element in the book and I believe that element to be unintentional - but I think there's still a degree of it there nonetheless. It's not a big thing certainly but it is something I noticed was a little unusual.
I mean, you can argue with me that the evidence of it is not homoerotic or whatever, and that it's really something else, but that doesn't change the fact - (in my opinion at least) that there is enough evidence and incedents to add up to something that could be construed as an (unintentional) homoerotic subtext.
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I would say that I have read a vast many books, and I still don't see it. But I'm not into disecting books either. I enjoy them as a way to escape.
I think you're just reading into it. Did you see anything in Harry Potter? ;)
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I read a lot, too--as evidenced by the plethora of reviews I write for this site, which means I spend a lot of time critiquing books. I have a BA degree in English. I just don't see that in his books.
I think perhaps that Rowling's revelation of Dumbledore's leanings has given you the idea that it exisits secretly in other works, as well.
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Uh, not really, am I the only one who *strongly doubts* she wrote him as gay originally?
I've always suspected she just said that at the end in a sort of "....and guess what kiddys; Santa's not real either!" type of way.
But I mean, hey, if I had the opportunity she did to freak out small children as she did I probably would have had to go out and buy that marvellous book of great lies to tell small children...
I've heard that since the "outing" the Dumbledore's actor's taken to swanning it up on set. (Which also must be fun).
I have to admit though, my beliefs were stengthened about Eldest/Eragon after I found out Paolini had been home school and based one of the characters off his sister
- other people fear carny folk, I fear the home schooled. Something about their pressed polo shirts or whatever *freaks* me out... though I love polo shirts really, great material to physically exert yourself in, I just get very weirded out by people who iron it---- or eat pizza with untensils.
I'm still sticking with my "Saphira wants to do what's-his-face though" as a metaphor, even if only because it's such a fun argument to make.
I'm terribly sorry, I ramble so.
(this is why I draw pretty pictures and don't write).
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Yeah I think most people would say Rowling stuck that in just to get attention.
And I don't see how being home schooled remotely lends itself to homosexuality or any such "wierdness". now this is saying alot, since I'm fairly against home schooling, but I wouldn't say that I can see his homo erotic tendencies because of that. I know plenty of home schooled people and not one of them has a tendency towards homo anything. And when I write books I name the characters after my kids and family what does that say about me?
And so help me if the Dumbledore in the movies starts acting gay I'm not watching another one. :)
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I have to admit though, my beliefs were stengthened about Eldest/Eragon after I found out Paolini had been home school and based one of the characters off his sister
- other people fear carny folk, I fear the home schooled. Something about their pressed polo shirts or whatever *freaks* me out... though I love polo shirts really, great material to physically exert yourself in, I just get very weirded out by people who iron it---- or eat pizza with untensils.
Please don't fall prey to the stereotypes and be afraid of homeschoolers. Granted, there are cases in which there are some wacko homeschoolers that you probably should run away from. But the VAST majority are just normal people who do not wear insanely well-ironed polo shirts. (The creepy ones you want to run away from are probably wearing overalls.)
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The school system in the US is quite terrible, both public and private institutions. Homeschooling, if done properly, is infinitely better than subjugating your children to the conformity inducing production line that is American education. Of course, there will be parents who teach their children far more poorly than anything the education system could do, but that isn't indicative of homeschooling in any way - just bad parenting.
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Now that we've gotten completely off topic, which I saw coming the moment white mentioned homeschooling. I will have to put my $0.02 in, although I agree that the public school system is lacking in some area's of our country more than others, I think, that with the proper supplementing and involvement from the parents it is the only way to go. I feel very strongly that public school is not only for academic education, it is also a place to learn valuable social skills like working with people you don't agree with, the importance of not smelling funny ;), and how to interact with your peers and superiors, these are things that a great many people miss out on when they are home schooled because their parents just neglect to teach it, through no fault of their own, I'm sure.
Public education is as much for the valuable social lessons as it is for academia IMO.
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Oh sorry I wasn't really putting a direct link between homo-erotic subtext and = homeschooling. :)
It was more the whole aspect where homeschooling tends to go hand in hand with not getting out much and therefore Paolini being a bit a bit inept in trying to write more balanced interactions between guys and girls in his books perhaps. I always though Eragon's crush came across a little weird (as I may have said already).
I agree that American school system is flawed. The actual problem I have with the concept of homeschooling is I have doubts as to parents abilities as the educators to properly instil in their children the ability to be competitive in industry when they grow up - because parents care a lot about their children being hurt therefore the kids wind up being coddled. (I have a friend with a similar problem although not from exactly the same situation). Plus I don't know that it would be as academically competitive and I'm a firm believer that competition will nurture a better drive to succeed - or as Charity also mentioned - the realisation that deodorant is necessary.
And at the end of the day I sort of think that an author who's been homeschooled will not write a book with as interesting social interaction and will probably be less inspired to writing something very unique and individual (since I seem to recall high school being all about that and everyone trying to be different).
Some of the best books have in fact been written by say, people like JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis I think - I believe both of them went to war, and I think their writing was better for that as the more experience people have out in the world the better and more convincing books they'll write because the authors will have better understandings of social interactions etc.
Not that writers *should* go to war, it's just an example, I mean, they could maybe just work in retail or travel or whatever.
And onto another topic: if anyone writes here, has your writing ever been affected by working in retail? ;D
It's a war zone. ;)
Sorry, edited for typos!
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I agree with White and Charity about the social aspect of home schooling. My nephew is home schooled because he has issues, but it seems that they "coddle" him and the issues are getting worse, not better. When he gets a job, they aren't going to care about his issues. Public school gives you a chance to work through some of those issues, and have friends, and learn about dating and sexuality. Home schooling makes for a very sheltered individual, who is in no way ready for the college environment.
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White, I can see your point now...and although I have attributed the 'lack' in Paolini's love story with being as yet (or when he wrote Eragon) still a child. I chuckled at his discussion of 'epic love' in the book, thinking 'what does a 15 year old know about epic love?'
But I can also see that it could come from lack of social experiences, and since I also live in the vicinity of the Paolini's.... they live in Paradise Valley, which is about 15 minutes from my town (which incidentally several other well known people live out there) .... and I know the area they live in is Ranch and Farm Land (gorgeous area btw) and the houses are very spread out, there is one small school for k-12 out there as well, so i'm thinking that socializing without school is a bit difficult. Did that make sense, I put a lot of little thoughts in there, so you might need to reread that... :)
And as to the body odor thing, I was in no way trying to offend anyone, I was actually thinking of my babysitter who is home schooled and lacking in this particular aspect of education.
I agree that experiences can lend themselves to good writing, although it is not obligatory I don't think. Take Nicholas Sparks, his books The Notebook, A Walk to Remember, and several of his first ones were written from personal experiences he has dealt with in his life, the death of his sister, mother, and father being at the top of the list. Those books are considered, by some, far better than his more recent works. So there is another example.
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Alright, it have to defend myself here. I was homeschooled from preschool all thee way through highschool, and I think I turned out just fine, thank you. I don't care for polos, I eat pizza with my hands, I have tons of friends, and I get top grades in my college classes. Same thing with all my siblins, they're good students, and all have social lives.
I seriously hate it when people try place me in that stereotype. Not all jocks are stupid, not all cheerleaders are mean, and not all homeschoolers are anti-social. And school isn't the only place to meet people you know. I've made friends through church, dance classes I've attend, art classes, work, there's a thousand places out there besides school.
And at the end of the day I sort of think that an author who's been homeschooled will not write a book with as interesting social interaction and will probably be less inspired to writing something very unique and individual (since I seem to recall high school being all about that and everyone trying to be different).
How is it that being homeschooled will make you a worse writer? If you thnk Paolini's books are shallow and flawed, that's most likely because they are--and not because he was homeschooled. I agree that the more experiences you have, the more inhanced your writing will be, but what makes a book good has a lot more to do with whether or not you write well. Someone could have spent three years studying the natives in africa and have all kinds of interesting experiences and stories, but that doesn't mean he'd have the ability to write a good book about them. And you keep coming back to homeschoolers having no social skill. It is such a flawed and loaded statement that I almost cring at the fact that it's being used.
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It isn't that we think people who are homeschooled must be socially deprived, it's just that there would be a greater tendency for people who are already being segregated for their education, will be more likely to also be guided in other ways into more small social circles or whatever - it's kind of hard to explain what I mean, but really I'm talking about tendency more than anything else - the same way there's a tendency for regularly schooled people to swear like pirates (I know I do~! ;D ).
Obviously, there will be parents who raise very well behaved wrath-fearing-children who will never succumb to the sultry temptations of flying ducks or ships with a 'T'; but in my experience, the fact remains that as a whole schooled people have a greater tendancy towards lewd language.
So, do you kind of see how we're really not trying to make a personal attack but we're just describing a tendency towards something?
Really, not trying to make anyone feel the need to defend themselves.
Yes, Chariy your post made more sense than any of mine ever do!
Didn't think the body odour think was offensive, in my experience there was a set moment in about year 8 or 9 in highschool when the year group on mass was like: "Oh, what's this deoderant thing you say?~" and anyone else who was lagging behind was eventually caught up.
One of those important socially shaming experience of highschool - I seem to recall on a hot day one summer in Geography everyone (being in yr 12 at the time) coming to the mass and afterwords proven concensus that the last class had to have been year 8's or 9's judging by the fact we had some smell-i-vidence to go by.
oh and Shi, btw the thing about Paolini being homeschooled and that maybe contributing to the fact hat his books were kind of unoriginal came from me reading up on him and him saying how he drew inpiritation from all these books written by the famous fantasy writers or whatever (and his lovely scenic home - so I'm obviously a bit envious now of Charity) but the link/point/thingy I made came from the fact that - to me his work wasn't very personal. It was more like a retelling of elements of other fantasy stories already in existence.
It kind of lacked a bit of personal foibles and whatnot that tend to be developed from worldly experience and that's bascially more what my point was.
Um I'll hesitantly use an example of Chick Lit. I like a good chick lit, they tend to be nice, personal and flavoured with the author's own experience (perhaps more so than more classical literautre which tends to be more stripped bare and philosophical like modernist design). In my opinion- going by some of my favourite works of Chick Lit, their creators *must* have had some interesting bosses/friends/weird experience because that type of thing pops up in their work and is often very real and personal feeling and everything, and their characters seem more three-dimensional to me.
um, (again) sorry I don't know if there was a point in there but I like Chick Lit. The current company seems relativly girly though so I hold hopes of not being openly stoned for this.
P.P.S.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay~! :-*
(... no I'm not *really* in case you didn't get the reference.)
[and as always with me, edited for typos!
curse thee, foul, ergonomic-keyboard~!]
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I can't say I think of high school fondly, or even as real social interaction. I went to public school, and high school was more an exercise in subduing any actual personality you had, and adopting a stereotypical personality to fit in with whatever clique it was you found yourself in. Everything that I would call real social interaction in a school setting happened at college, and outside of the school.
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Psh, you people just had sucky High Schools. I never had any of those experiences.
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Paolini is young and his writing reflect that.
As for homeschooling, I've spent some time working with school administrators and seeing how schools are organized. I'm not against homeschooling at all. Honestly, public schools only seem to work for about 80% of kids. The other 20% of kids would probably be better off being home schooled.
I don't think public schools help every child socially. I think it helps some children develop social skills, but a lot of children don't develop good social skills no matter how many people they are around. Public schools don't require social interaction--it's not part of the curriculum and if it is it gets shoved aside.
Also every community is different. For many children, particulary if they have a disability, they are better off being home schooled where they can recieve more attention and more individualized instruction. As far a learning social skills, many home school children excell at learning to network with many people outside of their peer group since they don't get placed into social clicks and are forced to look for friendship outside of the local geography.
Course, I went to public schools. I don't have a lot of fond memories of high school. I'm actually really glad my family moved away from the first high school I attended.
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42... so am I! if I hadn't've (ooh, like that? three words with one stone! ;) ) moved, I probably would be in a very different place right now, in my life.
And social cliques as they are, high school or surviving it teaches you how to handle those sorts of pressures... and if it doesn't college will and if it doesn't well, then you've got a problem ;)
One of my dearest friends was home schooled, she is as normal as anyone...well okay, she does have this aversion to healthy food, but that's her mom's fault ;) I don't condemn the child who was home schooled, I think all teenager's go through a smelly, ugly, anti social stage... I did! (there I admitted it! your turn) But I also think that you receive things in public school that you can't at home where you are with people you are comfortable with.
Now, home schooling has taken on an entirely different meaning anymore, I think there are alot of resources and it's one of those things that people perceive as secluded (would that be the right word?) and closed off, but it doesn't have to be. If the parents are odd balls though, and they home school the poor kids don't seem to have a prayer (until they get out of the house) ;)
I love where I live, white! I didn't know he lived up here till we moved here and then I started seeing things from the book. Paradise Valley is enclosed in mountains on two sides, high peaked ones that bring lots of wind in winter and then you come out through this gap into these wide open fields of grass land, where the wind kind of breaks free and picks up speed (this is where my town is...in the gap, it's very windy here). In the right time of year everything is a sea of golden grasses, but not as much so as say the midwest... we still have the mountains.
Anyway whenever we drive into town I can imagine the kid and his dragon coming out of their little protected home in the mountains onto these plains and I think, "yeah, yeah, I can see it." You should all come see it here, it's magnificent, and right outside of Yellowstone to boot!
I should see if I can find a link... hang on...
http://www.ameyapreserve.com/
Okay so that's a total, 'buy a house here' site but it's got great pics. click on all the different links and you see more pics... I like the one for boundless endeavours, that's paradise valley (where we can't afford a house ;)) -sigh- I love where I live. :)
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Oh my golly-gosh that's so goooooooorgeous. And there's like, *RED LICHEN* on the rock~! that's so coooooool~!
And windy places are very inspiring places to live I think~! (I always wanted to live somewhere that also had a bit more rain maybe...).
You're very lucky obviously to live in such a scenic place Charity!
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Charity, what I'm getting at is that as much as you say the social difficulties of public schools can teach and streghten children, it can just as easily cripple and disable children. I work with disabled adults and a number of them probably would be more functional had they not gone to public schools. I even know people who'd still be alive had they not gone to public schools. I see the public schools a significant contributor to my case load. I guess I should be grateful that the product of public schools keeps me employed.
So while I think public schools will help develop social skills for a lot of children, for some home-schooling is a much better option. I guess I think that most parents will do a better job teaching their children.
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Clearly the ultimate learning solution would be a Jedi academy ;D
;) anyone else for that?
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Charity, what I'm getting at is that as much as you say the social difficulties of public schools can teach and streghten children, it can just as easily cripple and disable children.
I completely agree, and I agree that there are circumstances where public school is not the best choice, I'm using a generalization.
White,
I don't know about the Jedi Academy, Anakin (is that how you spell it?) didn't fair so well.... perhaps he would have been better off with a different teaching style. He clearly had some anger issues that weren't being addressed in his form of education ;)
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Yeah, the zen-yoda-garden approach didn't work too well on him did it? ;)
Maybe he should have gone for distance learning in a nice swampy planet somewhere. I mean, I think homeschooling or whatever probably worked for Luke.
I mean, I'm assuming Luke was homeschooled/distance educated.
Is there any definitive word?
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I really enjoyed these books and have been anxiously awaiting the 3rd. Now that I also get a 4th, I am a little excited, but am disappointed I have to wait so long.
One thing I don't understand, is why these books bring so much negativity. I don't really think that's the case. I think if you look hard enough for a reason to dislike something, you can find it. I read all the reviews on amazon saying this is just like star wars and LotR. I honestly didn't find it that way.
All stories are complex enough, that if you really look into them you can compare them to just about anything. Especially if you are looking at things in the same genre. There is an entire website dedicated to trashing on these books.
IMO, if you don't like them, don't read them. What makes people think they need to go on some kind of crusade to prevent other people from reading them?
There was one comment about the horses in these books, and how there was one seen where Eragon was riding through the desert pushing the horse to the limit. They said that he obviously doesn't know anything about horses, and they easily would of died being pushed this hard.
Well... this is fantasy. It's his world. Maybe in his world the horses can do that. If this kind of factual issue bugs you, don't read it, but there's no reason to start a war against it.
You could do this for pretty much any book. I could say (though I never would) that Brandon's books are completely not worth reading, because Mistborns and allomancers are just Jedi's in different clothing. Elantris is completely unoriginal because we already read the story of the Elantrians in The Giving Tree. Alcatraz is just a cross between Dr. Seus and Harry Potter.
Enough books have been written that you can find another book that you can compare part of another too. That doesn't make it bad. So what if authors were inspired by something. If someone is able to look past that and enjoy the story, great. If other people can't. Great. I just don't see the point in trying to press that viewpoint on others.
/rant
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My brother in law went off on Star wars once cause 'there's no way a crochety old yoda could drop his cane and fight like that!'
My argument (after rolling my eyes) was, 'You've seen a lot of alien's fighting have you?'
I read to enjoy it, I watch movie's for the same reason, I agree it spoils the fun to dissect it all.
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Huh, oh I do like reading the books, ther'e not groundbreaking but are still an enjoyable distraction to me.
Honestly I was just making annoying, goofbal spazoid intellectual debate (and I use that penultimate word in it's loosest meaning I'm sure).
Actually suprised that someone would disparge on the horses in Eragon's world. Kind of dumb thing to nitpick about especially since it's not *absolutely* impossible. I mean, like, I currently own personally 3 horses of various ages and I mean, horses are all very different and some able able to push themselves through amazing things like a thoroughbred finishing a race with a leg compound fractured or whatever. (A strong flight instinct does certainly lend itself to the mount having a usefully strong "flee" command function).
So I hesitate to use any words like "impossible" around horses although to cover any distance of ground the pace would probably be a dog trot - I can't rememeber but as long as he didn't say the horse was cantering the whole way that's fine - although canter's only the third fastest of 4 paces it's physically more exhausting because of the way the horse moves. Galloping is in fact more energy efficient- although trot like I said, is the best for covering distances.
There have been far greater crimes against the logical capabilities of mounts than Eragon.
Like, you know, horses being drawn with *eyebrows*
doubleU-Tee-Eff, mate?
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I was following you all the way to the end there white....until we got to doubleU-Tee... oh! never mind.... trying to type it out I got it. lol! That made me feel old :)
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yeah, (teehhehee!) wasn't sure if that acronym was hunky-dory with everyone so decided to take extra protective measures (kind of like when your dogs start being able to spell and understand what you're talking about with your "W-A-L-K" 's and your "C-H-E-E-S-E" 's ;)
--- when your dogs growing up include a golden retriever you have to be careful because they drrrrrrrrooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool. ;D