Timewaster's Guide Archive
Alternate Realities => Endless Stars => Topic started by: Mr_Pleasington on August 09, 2005, 06:35:08 PM
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I'm not sure how I'm doing research yet. I was thinking that each system would generate a certain amount of tech. When you want to you can roll d100 to try to gain new technology. If you roll under the amount of Tech you have accumulated then you get to pick a new tech. Whether you succeed or fail you lose all accumulated Tech (that's a bit harsh)
Military
To be designed once we have a combat system
Science
Terraforming
A.I. - allows for Robotics Facility
Total Autonomation
Organic Industry
Virtualily Matrix - Increases research in systems with HR Station
Gene Splicing
Superconductor
Bioengineering
Social
Cloning Tech - allows for cloning facility
Neural Grafting - Current Morale can never be lower than 3
Propoganda - Less Morale Loss from losing battles
Instestellar Communication - can build HR Station
Applied Theology - MAy build religious sanctuary.
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Making it a roll just randomizes it, which reduces strategic element. For a more "fair" game, it would be better just to make techs cost 50.
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I want there to be some risk in research. Not much, but enough that if you really want to rush research you can, but with the chance of failing.
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Think about the law of averages, though:
If you research every time you have a single point, you'll be successful one in every 100 attempts, with a cost of 1.
So every success will, on average, cost you 100 points.
If you research every 50 points, you'll be successful ½ of the time, with a cost of 50, again averaging out to a success per 100 points.
If you research every 100 points, you'll be successful 100% of the time, with a cost of 100, also averaging out to 1 success per 100 points.
The only difference is that this makes it so that those who are lucky do well, and those who are unlucky do poorly. The only potentially strategic thing about this is you can choose how much to allow luck to influence your research (do you gamble every point away, and let luck do its thing, or do you wait 'til you have 100 points every time so there is no luck involved?). That said, there is a very, very small advantage to the person who gambles, this being that he'll get his technologies first, on average.
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I see your point, and agree that the d100 is not the way to go with this. It was just an initial suggestion and I'm open to other ways of doing it.
The way I see it, most empires will probably be churning out between 8 and 15 research points a turn once they get a few colonies under their belt. That's what I was basing my previous assumptions on...
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what about if each technology costs a certain amount of points. Now to do the bear minimum you will only get like a 1% chance of getting the research, but the more points you through at it the higher the % you have to complete. So if x points is need to have a 1% chance of doing it then 2X would give you 2% and 3X would give you 3%. All you would need is the person running it have access to a random number generator that can utilize persent chances.
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I'm bringing some strategy I learned from the Alpha Centauri unoffical strat guide in here.
The author said that one of the biggest things you could do was be fast. If you get that tech 5 turns earlier, it doesn't seem like much. Your playing a game with 1000 turns or so after all, right?
Wrong.
Take the example of former technology. One of the most important, yes, but a good example. That 5 turns is 5 turns earlier that you have formers in the field. That means you will have 5 whole turns extra of the bumper crop of minerals, roads, and such that those formers will give you. For this reason when you build a new colony in AC, and get the free 10 minerals, he said to spend it on a former (rather than a garrison, which was the default), because you will swiftly be able to get another 10 extra from it's efforts in the turns that would have normally been spent slowly building it.
This may not seem like much of a benefit, but add it up over the course of a game, and those few turns combined with other small advantages a good player can eke out of simply being first really add up to a major benefit. In this way a player can dominate his rivals.
That is why there is strategy inherent in getting tech faster, and that is why you should make ways to make that strategy balanced. A random roll makes it open to the vagaries of the dice, which is not strategy - it's just random.
My $166.
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Sorry if that seemed oppressive, by the way - I was just making sure you guys doing tech realised how important turn advantage actually is :)
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What we should do is make a tech tree, I believe. Make lesser techs cost less with less risk, and you have to build your way up. What is cool about this is you and your rival could take different routes in the technology trail, once you research a tech you can't research the other techs adjacent to it.
For example, if I made a tech tree as follows ("1's" would be the top of the tree, "2s" the next part, etc.):
1)Stem Cell Research
2) Organic Industry
3) Carbon Freezing
3) Organic Re-engineering
2) Bioengineering
3) Cloning
3) Artificial Lifeforms (requires "AI")
1)Global Connection and Internet Research
2)Instant Communication
3) Hive Mind (Requires "Organic Re-engineering")
3) Instant Transportation (Requires "Nuclear Power")
2)Virtual Reality
3) Virtual Matrix (Requires "Nuclear Power")
3) Sentient Programming (Requires "AI")
1)Robotics
2) Organic Replacement
3) Cyborg Technology (Requires "Organic Re-engineering")
3) Super Mind (Requires "Sentient Programming")
2) Artificial Intelligence
3) A.I. Robots
3) Brain Reconstruction [brain propoganda] (Requires "Bio-engineering")
1)Nuclear Science
2) Nuclear Fission
3) Nuclear Power
3) Nuclear Bombs
2) Nuclear Fusion
3) Artificial Sun
3) Hyper-Space (Requires "Carbon Freezing")
I just made that up off the top of my head, there are errors. Now, I could research all of the origional techs, everything labelled "1." But I could only choose one "2" and one "3" in each path, making the technology each civilization origionally gets distinct. We give each technology a benefit and players choose with Social, Science, etc path they take. Will you be a robot-harboring fascist state or a super-brain society of democrats?
Now, to get OTHER technologies you need to either trade technologies with another player, giving both of you the right to research the technology traded, or you can steal technologies using spies. Either way, you still have to pay the origional cost in addition to trading or stealing technology secrets.
Finally, I think that there should be a risk in technology, but not in researching it directly, but having it. For example, if you have robotic AI in your society, you need to pass a roll for every system, if you fail that roll, your robots are rebelling in a sector of your habitable planet. If you researched nuclear power, pass a roll to make sure that there aren't meltdowns. We can comeup with a tree like the one above pretty easily, with descripitions of benefits and risks.
I guess that wasn't finally. I think that each technology should take a certain amount of time to research. If you stole or traded for the technology ability, this time should be cut in half because you already know the secrets to success. This put quick players at the disadvantage of the real world--the first people to develope something always take the longest to do so.
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what about if each technology costs a certain amount of points. Now to do the bear minimum you will only get like a 1% chance of getting the research, but the more points you through at it the higher the % you have to complete. So if x points is need to have a 1% chance of doing it then 2X would give you 2% and 3X would give you 3%. All you would need is the person running it have access to a random number generator that can utilize persent chances.
That's what I was suggesting in the first post here. I just didn't lay it out as thoroughly as you have here. I like the idea, but I think d100 is too large. We'll work on it.
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The tech tree is exactly what we need!
I disagree with the danger of tech. Buying tech should be an advantage though some of the ones I've listed, you may note, have a drawback...like building robotics facilities (its lowers morale because it puts people out of work)
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I don't like that some techs would preclude others, however. It makes for more limited development of alien races.
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I think that all tech should have dangers, but they shouldn't be large. When I said you should roll to see if a system of yours has a nuclear meltdown, I didn't mean it should be likely. Also, the benefits should clearly outweigh any non-benefit, and dangers should be temporary things, but they would put a little more depth to the game.
I kind of have a system in mind. Alright, say I own four systems, and I have nuclear power researched. The risk of nuclear power would be plant malfunctions and meltdowns, to the benefit of a higher production and population limit. I would roll four d-10s, and for every 8+ I get there is a meltdown. I then roll a dice to determine the system hit by the meltdown. Finally, I roll a d-100 for damage.
Physical Damage and Morale Damage could be tied together, as a percentage thing, or could be rolled seperately. I think they should be tied together. So I go to that system and find the quadrant that has that system's nuclear power plant. I roll a d-100 for damage. There are different levels, the higher the number the more damage. Damage effects morale, so morale in this quadrant would drop.
I think it is important that there be some downside to having upgraded technology, and I don't think it should be the risk of not getting the technology. The technology should be a certain price, but once you get it there should be danger. And there should be other technologies you can research to reduce the risk of having AI robots or an artificial sun or whatever later in that and other trees. It puts risk in the research, like was wanted, but takes away a little bit of the severety and randomness, because you'll know what risks lie in a technology when you research it.
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30% chance of a powerplant going bad enough to damage a significant chunk of the system, huh? We don't have that much risk NOW, and i can only imagine that safety protocols and mechanisms would improve. But say, maybe 10% chance per system with a nuclear power plant might be more playable.
Also, roll them one at a time, in alpha order, that way you don't roll again to see where it hits. Reduces rolls that way.
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I think it should be possible to have "streamlined" alien races where these sorts of dangers could be gotten around, however. Perhaps an additional tech, where you trade time for safety? (Either way, however, the risk/cost would have to be enough make it worth it)
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I like the idea of a time-to-risk ratio. Perhaps the longer you spend developing something, the less risk there is of a problem, or the more you spend on it would work too, either more funding or more time.
And I didn't mean to make it 30% chance. I was just throwing out numbers to get the system across. I think if you do it the quickest and cheapest you can a 15% chance and if you do the carefullest way possible a 5% chance? Also, you could get upgrades that reduce the damage level, such as agencies regulating safety procedures. These could be on a seperate, streamlined tree, that instead of having lots of different paths just has a strait path for each dangerous technology.
MOD: Also, you should have to determine how many turns you give your scientists to develope the technologies (two turns min, maybe four max?), and there should be a safety cost if you shorten the deadline. So if I said I was going to give my people 4 turns to develope nuclear power, it would reduce the chance of problems from 15 to 5. Then the next turn I decide that I NEED that power ASAP, I could reduce the time to 2 turns, but I would not get the safety bonus for turn 3 or 4 and I would have a penalty of 5 or so.
Finally, I think the longer you have a technology, the smaller the risk should be. Maybe reduce the risk by .5% every turn you have the technology without problems, and don't reduce the risk on turns you do.
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I don't think we want to get into subpercentile modifiers. But I get the idea.
I think automatic issues like that would overwhelm people with things to remember. It's one thing to have a list you can refer to, but it's another to have to remember to change a minor stat every turn.
I think, however, that a time vs. risk thing would work well. However, I think that it should always be possible, with enough time [or resources, or what have you] (and never so much as to make it inconceivably worthwhile), to eliminate normal problems entirely.
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Here's what we're going to do with this. Developing techs may have drawbacks, but usually to morale or some such...not something as destructive as a meltdown.
How we will capture this aspect is through random events that can happen each turn. For example:
Nuclear Meltdown: Lose one Population and roll as 50% chance of decreasing Capacity by one. Ignore this effect and reroll Random Event if you don't have Nuclear technology.
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You said hyperspace is already researched. How is that going to work, I didn't see it on any of the other threads. Can any planet attack any other planet or will there be a Cowboy-Bebopish warp-gate system which makes it so only certain planets can attack eachother? Just curious if there will be strategic value to the location of planets.
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Every civ starts with Level 1 FTL technology, allowing them to jump between different systems.
Systems will be connected by jumproutes. Each system will probably be connected to 2-3 others.
Each jumproute will have a rating: Class 1, Class 2, and Class 3.
The number of turns it takes to jump between systems depends on both your level of FTL Tech and the Class of the Jumproute.
FTL Level 1: Jumping takes a number of turns equal to the Class of the route.
FTL Level 2: Jumping takes a number of turns equal to the Class of the route minus 1. Minimum 1.
FTL Level 3: Jumping takes a number of turns equal to the Class of the Route minus 2. Minimum 1.
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I talked about some techs in the planet and system part, I just want to expand on them here.
Underwater expansion
1. Water Proof Shield
A) Shield Level 1 - Allows a city to be built between 1 and 500 feet under sea level
B) Shield Level 2 - Allows a city to be built between 501 and 1000 feet under seal level
C) Shield Level 3 - Allows a city to be built between 1001 and 5000 feet under seal level
D) Shield Level 4 - Allows a city to be built anywhere under seal level
2. Water Transportation
A) Boats - Allows for slow movement on to surface of the water also able to gather surface level fish
B) Submarines - Allows for slow movement on the surface and under the surface
C) Improved Submarines - Allows for quicker movement and the ability to gather deep water fish
D) Underwater Roadway - Allows for fast movement through the water (road type technology)
3. Breathing Improvement (Required Water Proof Shield level 1)
A) Water to polluted Air - Converts water to a type of polluted air, still breathable, but lowers the morale of the people breathing it by 10%
B) Water to breathable Air - Converts water to air that is not as polluted, and will only cause morale to drop 5%
C) Water to Air - Converts water to normal breathable air. This will not decrease morale in any way
D) Water to Clean Air - Now air is even cleaner then the surface air which increase morale by 2%
4. Underwater Mining (requires Water Proof Shield level 3)
A) Mineral Gathering - allows an under water city to gather materials from the ocean floor. Materials are of the lowest quality
B) Refining Mined Materials - Increases the value of the materials gathered from underwater mining facilities
C) Improved Mining - Increases that amount mined by an underwater mining facility
5. Underwater Gathering (required Water Proof Shield level 1, and Boats)
A) Surface level fishing - Allows the gathering of small fish at the sea level
B) Improved Fishing - Improves the fish that are gathered at sea level
C) Underwater fishing - Allows deep water fish to be gathered (required Improved Submarine)
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Those are some good ideas, Legion, but you're zooming in way too far. This is how detailed a sample planet would look:
Pop: 6
Production: 4
Lode: 5
Capacity: 6
Morale: 8 (8) 100%
Assets:
Industrial Complex: Level 2
Religious Sanctuary: Level 2
Supply Depot: Level 1
Orbital Shipyards
So, in the example of you tech ideas, it could be summed up in one asset, like this:
Underwater Habitation: (Level 1 to Level 2) Capacity increases by 1 for each level.
Note, that this should be cheaper than Terraforming and could be attained earlier in the game.
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ok then going off of that you can have the underwater tech just add to the basic states (increaseing the max)...If a planet had the capacity of 6 then this would increase that to by 1 for each lvl...and the mining would increase the production by 1 for each lvl. However if you do the mining then you cannot do the fishing..... Now guess what fishing does....good guess it would increase the food by 1 for each lvl. As for the transportation, you cuold have that increase morale by 1% for each lvl
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Actually, Legion, Production should only be raised by Industrial Complex...otherwise you have overly redundant assets. When you buy a level of Ind. Complex you can imagine putting it underwater, but there will really be no benefit.
Just trying to keep us all on the same page here.
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You need to give us more information across the board, Mr P. You ask us for ideas, then turn around and say you've already devised a system for it. Let everyone else know what you've done as well :)
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Those are some good ideas, Legion, but you're zooming in way too far. This is how detailed a sample planet would look:
Pop: 6
Production: 4
Lode: 5
Capacity: 6
Morale: 8 (8) 100%
Assets:
Industrial Complex: Level 2
Religious Sanctuary: Level 2
Supply Depot: Level 1
Orbital Shipyards
So, in the example of you tech ideas, it could be summed up in one asset, like this:
Underwater Habitation: (Level 1 to Level 2) Capacity increases by 1 for each level.
Note, that this should be cheaper than Terraforming and could be attained earlier in the game.
I found this to give me a huge insight on how the planet system would be setup. More examples I think would be great
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I know, Entropy.
I might have come in to ask for ideas a bit too early since while I have a good idea of what I want to do and some basic system design, I didn't think it was in a workable form to share. Hence, we're all on different pages.
I'll see if I can clarify stuff here soon.