Timewaster's Guide Archive

Alternate Realities => Endless Stars => Topic started by: Entsuropi on August 09, 2005, 06:37:44 PM

Title: Combat
Post by: Entsuropi on August 09, 2005, 06:37:44 PM
For the combat section, I suggest something along the lines of a simple contested dice roll. Each unit gives a certain number of advantage points, as does factors like terrain and such.  

Example:
Player A has 1 fighter launcher platform, 5 frigates and 3 cruisers. He has attached 4 squadrons of fighters to the fleet.

Fighters = 1 each.
Frigates = 3 each.
Cruisers = 8 each.
Fighter Launcher, due to it's ability to coordinate and control fighter squadrons better, has an advantage points equal to the fighter squadrons total. Note that I like the idea of interlocking bonuses - like having tanks that have a higher score if there is APC mounted infantry in the same army.

Total is 4 + 15 + 24 + 4 = 47.  

His opponent (Player B) has something similar, resulting in 35 advantage points. However, player A is attacking a system controlled by Player B, who had the foresight to construct a minefield around the jump gate. This gives him a +2 advantage point bonus on the first combat fought in the system after it's construction (one time bonus only). He now has 37.  

The players each roll a dice, lets say a D100 divided by half. Player 1 gets 23, and player 2 gets 35. Totalled, they get:
Player 1: 47 + 23 = 70.
Player 2: 35 + 37 = 72.  

Player 2 has won the combat, and maintains his hold over the system. The difference in scores could be used to determine how many ships were lost on each side.

Just an idea. It is simple, fairly fast I suppose, and can be easily swapped out for something else if desired. A ground combat version could be similar, but should be configured to the specifications of the game. A game of 40k should have endless ground wars, represented by slow attrition style battles. Star Trek, however, should have ground battles be very quick to represent the series's dislike of showing bloody warfare on that scale.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 09, 2005, 09:26:25 PM
I like what I see here.  Here are some thing I've thought of, just generally:

1. Fleets can be divided into squadrons and assigned orders during combat.  Action is resolved squadron vs. squadron.

2. The combat system should be able to take into account new technology.  For instance, units should be able to be created via a balanced point system and given abilities like Heavy Shields, Ion Cannon, Assault, Interceptor, etc.

3. I like the idea of interlocking bonuses.  Another good example would be bombardment ships offering a bonus to ground base combatants.

4. Ground based combat should be fought on three fronts.  The attacking and defending players divide their forces between each of these fronts and each front has its combat resolved.  You must win at least two fronts to take a planet.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Entsuropi on August 10, 2005, 06:48:54 AM
Your ideas adds a lot of complexity. Are you sure you want to slow the game down like that?

Though i like the 3 fronts idea. Perhaps different genres can just have more fronts - star trek only having 1, compared to 40k having 5 or 7.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Legion on August 10, 2005, 10:10:40 AM
With the advantage points you could have upgrades increase a units point lvl, so a base  Cruisers has 8 points, but can have upgrades to raises its lvl to 12.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 10, 2005, 01:18:14 PM
Quote
Your ideas adds a lot of complexity. Are you sure you want to slow the game down like that?

Though i like the 3 fronts idea. Perhaps different genres can just have more fronts - star trek only having 1, compared to 40k having 5 or 7.



It adds complexity, yes, but it also adds strategy.  Otherwise, you just build up the biggest fleet you can without thinking of how it interacts.  Without making some tactical decisions during battle it becomes a very non-interactive combat game.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 11, 2005, 02:04:54 AM
So in my free time I've been bouncing around ideas about the combat system, as it is the next great hurdle.  What keeps tripping me up is that I'm trying to find the compromise between just having Attack, Defense, etc. stats and something that allows techs to be a little more fun.

Y'know, a starship might have ionic shielding but a ship with a Frequency Harmonizing beam may be able to bypass that.

Finding the balance is really, really tricky.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Legion on August 11, 2005, 09:33:36 AM
What about if you have in a military research, a race is able to research 3 different types of shield and types of weapons.  A ship can only have 1 kind of the 3, but each ship can pick when the tech is researched.

1)  Photon------> Strong against Ion ||| Weak against
                            Frequency
2)  Ion------------> Strong against Frequency |||
                            weak against Photon
3) Frequency ---> Strong against Photon || weak against Ion
Title: Re: Comba
Post by: JP Dogberry on August 11, 2005, 10:12:53 AM
I think you're underplaying the importance Morale plays in a combat situation. Now, because of this, a ship should not have it's statistics based on how many weapons and shields it has, but rather the amount of Ale and Wenches on board.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on August 11, 2005, 10:31:08 AM
I think the rock/scissors/paper thing has been done, legion. I know I'm not participating a lot, but perhaps you could move it to 5 levels?
ion is weekest against photon, slightly better against antimatter, balanced against (or even better, negated by) ion, pretty decent against projectiles, and rips the tar out of frequency.

I'm just making up names and relationships out of my butt, but I think that communicates the idea. Yeah, it makes things a little longer to figure out, but 5 levels is still pretty easy to handle, and it becomes more than a rock/scissors/paper game.

My favorite scenario is that a form of energy cannot penetrate a defense made of the same energy, at least not after some serious overloading. Thus ships can have a primary weapon and a secondary weapon. Or perhaps a sliding scale of size. each weapon or defense takes up 1 unit of space. Thus, the smallest ship has one 1 unit of space, an can choose either a weapon or a defense matrix. The largest ships can have10 spaces, allowing them to have a defense and a weapon of each type. Or you can reduce that value to 6 or 7, stating that ships large enough to have weapons useful for their size and have more than that many types of weapon/defense requires too much energy to be maintainable.

I think about the system I liked for Star ship conbat best, "Star Warriors" and it was pretty simple, though. One type of shield, just varying damage for weapons. The beauty of that system was maneuvering. I recommend adapting something like that and adding some complexity to the weapon/defense mechanics.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Legion on August 11, 2005, 10:42:32 AM
I like the idea about ship size and amount of different weaponery on it, the reason why I went with only 3 different weapons is just to make it simplier, but if you think that having more would not complicate it to much go for it.  Also the idea that an Ion gun can not damage an Ion shielded ship would make it very intresting.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Entsuropi on August 11, 2005, 12:51:33 PM
You have to remember, this is a PBEM game. Over complexity will just stun the players.

Here is what i thought up. It's PBEM, so dice are out. What about orders? You'd need a GM of some kind to adjudicate it, but if you could choose from say Strong Attack, Mild Attack, Defend, Take and Hold or similar things - like the Special Orders from BFG - they might do different things. Like mild attack (being a probing, careful assault)  will defeat defend, but a strong attack will stop it. Strong Attack (a brute rush) will defeat mild attack, but fail against defend.

Something like that. It adds interactivity, and strategy (how has this player resolved the situation in the past?, maybe some repercussions of the various things (even if you annihilate the enemy with Strong Attack, it leaves you out of place so an additional enemy fleet can nip around behind you and attack the planet anyway sort of thing). It also deals with the no-dice thing.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 11, 2005, 02:33:04 PM
No, actually dice are in...just not many.  Each phase of a combat round should be resolved in one roll.  

I'm not a big fan of the rock/paper/scissors stuff as I'd like for the design system to be broad enough for players to develop their own weapon systems.  

Like I said, there's a lot of factors I'm considering here.  Keep throwing ideas out people, it's helping.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Entsuropi on August 11, 2005, 02:35:25 PM
But why dice? That assumes that players have them to hand, and it's not really needed, with the use of clever systems.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 11, 2005, 02:37:13 PM
Because I like the idea of randomness, otherwise battles would be almost predetermined.  If you can design me a system that doesn't use dice, adds some randomness, and keeps stategy in the battle, I'd certainly consider using it.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Legion on August 11, 2005, 03:12:44 PM
if you want to get nice and fancy with this game, could you make the dice system part of the page.....if it is going to take place in a forum, you make a button that posts a random number that is between x and y.  This number will only be seen when posted, and can not be changed....not sure if this is possible
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 12, 2005, 02:28:46 PM
This may be too mico-management focused, but I'd like there to be room for specific strategies to be played out during the battles.

For example, you sent out a ship to attract the enemy's attention.  They see it, and thinking it's an easy kill, chase after it.  It takes off as fast as it can go, and they pursue.  Finally, it moves straight through an ambush of your own armada, which takes the opponent completely by surprise.  This is an example of a Loss Leader technique being used.  The most exciting part of any strategy game is the psychology being involved.  There should be room for psychology.

Rock-paper-scissors isn't exciting unless you can bluff, get your opponent to think you're attacking with one type, and then hit him hard with another.

Perhaps the rock-paper-scissors approach shouldn't be in armament, but in tactical strategy?  This could actually be made very easy, for example, when two armadas come into conflict, each admiral could choose a strategy, let's say one chooses "hit and run", and the other chooses "ambush".  In this case, the ambuscade would probably win the encounter (or have a big bonus, so you can take into account size of fleets, etc.).  Certain strategies could also manipulate interlocking bonuses, eliminating them, adding them, or altering what's already there.  So your interlocking bonuses depend on what type of strategy you use.  Make this manipulatable enough and there's lots of room for psychology/strategy.  For example, based on your ship configuration, your opponent may expect X strategy, but then you have something up your sleeve (say a certain officer or something) allowing you to pull Y strategy, etc.

Examples of potential strategies to choose:
Ambush
Hit and Run
Harass/Skirmish
Flee
Direct Assault
Divide & Conquer
etc.


I think this would be most effective if there are many (around a dozen) strategies to employ.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Lieutenant Kije on August 13, 2005, 12:28:12 AM
You all may be thinking this already...

I think that since this is a PBEM, you should be able to accomplish a lot in a single email.  Having a battle last several emails long would bog the game down.  One email from each combatant, resolution by GM, battle over.  That would be sweet.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 13, 2005, 02:02:40 AM
One of the problems is micro/macro.

You want this to be really macro, so certain things need to be simplified.  Problem is, we really like micro around here.

FYI:  40k is a "micro" game.  You have to be really careful to mix it with a "macro" game, especially a fully customizeable one.

It's like the difference between Warhammer 40,000 and Epic/Space Marine/whatever they call it these days.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Entsuropi on August 13, 2005, 03:34:28 PM
Hence my initial suggestion of a single dice roll :)
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 16, 2005, 12:36:18 AM
In the last two days I've designed and scrapped about a dozen combat systems.  This is really all of your chances to make a big contribution, as I am stumped and need to step back for a bit.

Your task: Design the combat system.

Here's what it has to do:

1) Handle both space and ground battles with the same system

2) Account for different weapon types and armors without really bogging down.

3) Be able to be resolved quickly and over email while still maintaining strategy.

4) Be able to describe what ships/units were damaged in each battle.

I've tried everything from basic Offense vs. Defense generic combat to rolling for each weapon system and allowing for individual ships to be targetted.  Nothing really worked the way I wanted it to.

I was also fiddling with the idea of range being such a big deal in space.  All long range weapons fire, then medium, then short.  That was working well but I couldn't fit it into any system I was working with.  I'm frazzed.

I was also trying to account for tactics that can be researched.  My example was an "Assault Strike" where a squadron gets to attack before all others but suffers a big hit to defense in following turns.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 16, 2005, 02:12:39 AM
Well, one of your major problems is that you need to decide how combat is going to work.  Is it going to be fleet/army-based, or ship/tank (etc.)-based?  Again, this is a matter of micro and macro.

You don't want to deal with the armours and weapons of specific ships if you're going macro.  And if we're going micro, we'll probably have to rethink everything else, unless we're doing both, in which case there's no way combat'll be quick AND strategic (that I can think of)

So part of your difficulty may really lie in indecision between making this a micro game and making it a macro game.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 16, 2005, 03:23:09 AM
Yes, that basically sums up my problem.  Stupid scale.

I'd like for it to be a fleet game (for space combat), but where fleets are composed of individual units (ships).

For ground combat, we will again have individual units (Zarot Guard, Siege Tank Detachment, etc.) fighting on a few fronts.

Actually, I just had an epiphany (thanks, JadeKnight). The real problem I'm having is figuring out how the individual units interact on the large scale.

Just totalling offensive power and rolling a die is kind of boring, but workable.  The opposite, involving directing squadrons of units with orders gets much more complex but is more exciting, tactically.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 16, 2005, 03:25:10 AM
Yes.

You could go the tally route, though that will be overly simplistic.  If you plan to take that route, I'd highly recommend a grid system involving strategies.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Legion on August 16, 2005, 05:27:36 PM
What if you design the combat system like this?

Leader: Sergeant Jarhead
Abilities: 5/6
Fleet Capacity: 8/10
Attack Power (AP): 10
Defense Power (DP): 8
First Strike (FS): 75/100
Formation: Defense Formation +2 DP (not added in)
Special Training:
1.      Mined Swiping (nullifies any bonuses that the enemy gains from use of mines)
2.      Tactics increases base AP (already added in)
3.      Improved Combat Communication (increase Capacity by 1 [already added in])
4.      First Strike (allows the unit to be able to have first chance to attack)
5.      Disarm (decreases enemies First Strike attack)
Technology Bonuses:
1.      Improved Armor (adds 1 to DP per 5 units [already added in])


You would not be able to have the entire tech listed, each fleet of troops would only be able to have certain ones, but I thought this would be a good idea on how to setup a fleet.  Ability would be how much training the leader could have.  The leader of the fleet passes all his training down to his troops so that they have the same training only while under his command.  To gain more slots you go up in rank.  Rank is determined by wins verses losses, and morale of your race.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 16, 2005, 10:12:05 PM
Okay, I came up with a system, tried to submit it, the system said it was too long and told me to shorten it.  When I pressed the back button it was gone.  I'm not typing it up again right now.  It would take a long time to remember everything.  I am really, really unhappy right now.  Oh well, just know I have a system and will type it back up in the near future.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 17, 2005, 12:24:52 AM
Sorry about that.

Every time I post something long, I hit CTRL + A, C before posting, just in case something evil like that happens.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 17, 2005, 12:55:31 AM
I used to lose emails to hotmail crashing all the time.  I've started copying them just in case.

But I feel your pain.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 17, 2005, 03:38:12 AM
Well, here's the deal, I copied it, out of paranoia, earlier, but forgot to right before I posted.  So I have about 1/10 or 1/8 of it saved now, and when I get up later this morning I will type up the rest and I will post it tomorrow.  I can, however, say a few basic things.
~Most battles can be determined after one e-mail from each person.
~I've gone ahead and come up with weapons with ranges, strengths and special abilities
~Same with sheilds, minus the special
~I wanted to go into commanders and whatnot, but decided I didn't have the time.  I'll add those later if you people like my ideas.
~The same system is used for land and space combat
~While you don't command your entire army to do the same thing, it isn't too micro-management based, individual ships aren't given commands...

I'm going to bed.  I'll type it back up and post it tomorrow, er, that is actually later today.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 17, 2005, 04:03:43 AM
Sounds intriguing.

I can't wait to take a look.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 17, 2005, 08:17:41 PM
What if we didn't do ship-based or fleet-based, but Squad based?  This way all of your troops aren't doing the same thing, but you don't have to micro manage a bunch of stats.  Squads could be five ships or men large.  They would have a stat run-down that looks something like this:

Squad: X-Wing Fighters
R 5
L 5
C 5
Weapon: Second Degree Lazer
Secondary: Basic Missile
Upgrades and Abilities:
2nd Degree Armor
Mine Detection

Not as many stats to deal with.  Here's what I was thinking for weapons: any squad would start with a basic lazer, photon or gamma weapon and a basic shield.  The sheilds and weapons could be upgraded for each individual squad for a cost, and this would be put right into the squad's stats.

Ships:
Lazer - Weak Vs Lazer Sheild.  Long Range, Weak.
Photon - Weak Vs Photon Sheild. Moderate Range.  Moderate Strength.
Gamma - Weak Vs Gamma Sheild.  Short Range, Splash Damage, Moderate Strength.
Machine Gun - Close Range. moderate. Three shots per turn, as compared to normal one.
Missile - Close Range, Splash Damage, Strong.  Cost per use.

Later, a squad upgrades to get a secondary weapon and a secondary shield at a cost.  No more weapons are allowed on a squad, and every ship in a squad must have the same weapons.  I'm guessing two or three squads would be in the average battle, they should be relatively expensive, but cheap enough that a player can have at least one in all of their systems if they want to be cautious.

Ground Units: These units would be made on a planet and placed in one of three strategic battle zones.  They can move freely between zones at the cost of one turn, and can move between systems only by being transported via a squad.  If a squad is destroyed while transporting ground units, the ground units are destroyed, too.  It takes one turn for a squad to load ground units and one turn to unload, while loading and unloading ships may not attack or be attacked by space units, may not attack ground units and may not move.

Men- Basic Ground Unit.  These units have no armor except a kevlar which is also lazer resistant.  These units have four health on all flanks. These units would start with one of two weapons and may later upgrade to carry two different weapons.  Units may not start with Anti-Tank.
Machine Gun - Strong Vs Foot, Weak Vs Tank.  Moderate Range.  Two Shots per turn.
Lazer - Moderate Vs. Men and Tanks.  Long Range.
Anti-Tank (heavy) - Strong Vs. Men and Tank.  Close Range, Splash Damage.  Cost per use.

Tanks are heavy ground support.  Tanks do not come in squads, they come as one unit.  When attacking a tank, attack like normal (right, left, center) as per your wishes, either side has only three hit points while the front has five.  They have upgradable armor and weapons, but may only have two weapons, which are on the tank when it is made.  Weapons upgrade.
Rocket - Strong Vs. Men and Tanks.  Close Range.  Splash Damage.  Cost per use.
Machine Gun - Strong Vs. Men, Moderate Vs. Tank.  Moderate Range.  Two shots per turn.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 17, 2005, 08:19:10 PM
Okay, those are the basic units I thought of and weapons and shields.  Only ships deal with sheilds, the rest just have armor.  Here how I imagine combat going:

When a battle is declared by one player, he or she will choose how many of his or her units which are currently in the system or region of the battle will participate in the battle.  The defender does the same.  Both the attacker and defender must have at least one unit fight in the battle.  If the attacking player looses a battle, all his or her ships in the system retreat to a warp-gate, except ships that are in "ambush" mode and did not participate in the battle.  If the defending player looses a battle, all ships in the system retreat to that system's planet and may not be used for the next turn.  While on the planet, they may be fixed at the disgretion and will of their owner, but do not have to be.  Defending ships given the "ambush" command that did not participate in the loosing battle may remain in the system without fleeing to the planet.

All players engaging in a battle e-mail a third party, either a GM or if there is no GM a nuetral player.  The E-mail should have all their participating unit's stats.  That player or GM will send the number of squads, tanks and men being used in the battle by the other team.  Then all players involved send their commands to the nuetral player or GM.  

Each unit/squad will be given a primary command, a secondary command and a third command.  There are several "in-battle" commands.  These commands are attack right flank, attack left flank, attack center, defend, move.  A command rundown would look something like this:
Quote

Squad #1:
~Machine Gun, Right Flank, "The Enchiladas"
~Photon, Center, Ambushing Forces
~If Attacked, Defend flank attacked



The Squad you are commanding is on top, then beneath are three commands.  Command orders go "Weapon, Region, Target" for attacks.  the first command will be the command used in battle.  The second and third commands are "back-up" plans. The will only be used in the situation that they describe, so in the scenerio above, the last command will ONLY be initiated if that squad is attacked.  You could go into depth with your secondary commands, saying If Squad #2 is attacked, attack: Photon, Left Flank, Squad attacking Squad #2.

Squads told to defend will only have the defend effects on one flank.  This flank will automatically be the flank which would take the most damage.

At the beggining of the battle, both sides start at "long range." In order to use "moderate" or "close" range weapons, ships must move forward.  To move, a unit's primary command must be move.  If a moving unit is not attacked, its secondary command is ALSO carried out.  A unit can move twice and attack if its primary and secondary command is move, it is not attacked at any time, and its third command is attack.  If a moving unit is attacked, it still move, but does not carry its secondary command.  A moving unit cannot have secondary commands that overide moving: for example, a moving unit cannot have "If attacked, defend" as a secondary command.

All flanks on all units have 5 health.  If one flank of a squad is destroyed, it retreats from the battle.  If it belonged to a player outside of a system he or she controls, destroy it.  If it belonged to a player inside a system he or she controls, inside an ally's system or if the player gets permission to land from another player, it retreats to that system's planet*.  It is not allowed to be used for the next turn, and may be fixed at the owner's wishes.  If two flanks are destroyed, that squad is destroyed.

*If it is a land battle, forces retreat to a region they own that is not being fought in.  If no such region exists, they are simply removed from battle.

A player wins a battle if one of the following occurs, if two of the following situations occur, the one highest on the list is the winning scenerio:

~He or she has at least four times more troops than his or her opponent at beggining of battle.  If this occurs, the battle is not fought, and all the loosing forces are forced to flee.
~He or she removes from battle 50% or more of the opposing forces without loosing 50% or more of his or her own forces.
~He or she has more ships in the opponent's beggining zone than his or her opponent.
~He or she has double the amount of troops than his or her opponent at the end of the battle.
~He or she has lost no units.

If none of these situations occur, the battle is given to whoever owns the system or region. If one of the above scenerios occurs for both players, it is given to the owner of the system or region. If the battle is given to the owner of the system, the other players' surviving forces are not destroyed, but they are forced to leave the system via the closest warp-gate, or is pushed back to a region their forces control (for land battles).  

Any surviving land troops on a planet that has been completely taken over by an opponent are killed unless there is a ship capable of flying that turn docked on the planet.  If that is the case, they are put into that ship and sent ito the space around the planet.  Ships who are docked on a planet taken over by an opponent but not allowed to fly for the current turn are also destroyed.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 17, 2005, 09:17:17 PM
After the GM or nuetral player works out which ships are hit by what (this is the most difficult part of battle, and I don't think it should be too difficult...), they work out damage.  Here is a rundown of armor and weapon damage for ships:

Lazer: +1 damage to flank attacked.  +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Photon: +2 damage to flank attacked.  +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Gamma: +2 damage to flank attacked.  +1 damage for adjacent flanks (splash damage*).  +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Missile: +3 damage to flank attacked. +1 damage to adjacent flanks (splash damage*). +1 more damage for each upgrade.
Machine Gun: +1 Damage to flank attacked.  May attack up to three flanks once or one flank twice.  +1 damage for each upgrade.
*splash damage will be calculated by taking the origional damage and cutting it in half, then rounding down.
Basic Armor:-1 damage from machine guns and missiles.  -1 all for each upgrade.
Lazer Shield: cuts one half power from lazer shots, rounded down. -1 all for each upgrade.
Photon Shield: cuts one half power from photon shots, rounded down*. -1 all for each upgrade.
Gamma Shield: cuts one half power from gamma shots, rounded down.  -1 all for each upgrade.

*here, when I say rounded down, I mean if you do 1 damage, you decrease that to .5 and round that down, so 0 damage.  Damage is rounded down, not shielding

Damage to men:
Machine Gun: +3 damage. This weapon may shoot twice at any one or two targets in range.  +1 damage for each upgrade
Lazer: +2 damage. +1 damage for each upgrade.
Anti-Tank and Rocket:+3 damage. +1 damage to adjacent flanks (splash). +1 for each upgrade.
Armor:
Basic Armor -1 from lazers and machine guns.  -1 all for each upgrade.

Damage to tanks:
Machine Gun: +1 damage.  This weapon may shoot twice at any one or two targets in range.  +1 damage for each upgrade
Lazer:+2 damage.  +1 damage for each upgrade.
Anti-Tank and Rocket:+3 damage. +1 damage to adjacent flanks (splash). +1 for each upgrade.
Armor
Basic Armor: -1 all.  -1 all for each upgrade.

It might look complicated, but it is really just adding and subtracting, and it could easily be put into a reference chart.

Any ship which choose to defend gets an additional 50% all damage reduction, rounded down.  If the ship choose to defend as a secondary command, then it is instead a -1 all.  Likewise, if a ship attacks as a secondary command, it only does 50% of the damage it normally would, rounded down.

Damage done to squads in combat remains in the squads' profiles until they are brought to a planet to be fixed.  This has a cost and the squad may not be used for one turn.  Once the squad is fixed, it is put back to full health.

Ships may be told to ambush before a battle.  A squad told to ambush will remain hidden to enemies in a region or system until they are told to stop waiting.  This will be put into their profile.  An ambushing squad's profile would look something like this:
Quote

Squad: X-Wing Fighters
R3
L4
C2
Weapon: Second Degree Lazer
Secondary: Basic Missile
Upgrades and Abilities:
2nd degree armor
AMBUSH -- THE MILKY WAY

If a battle erupts in the system or region which the squad is hiding, the owner of the squad is allowed to put those ships into battle.  If he or she chooses to do so, the opponent is not notified of those ships ambushing before the battle.  Ambushing ships also begin at "moderate" range instead of "long" range.  Counter-ambush commands may be made as secondary commands as a cautionary step.  Squad's with "ambush" in their profile are not allowed to move region or system or land on a planet while in "ambush" mode, but enemies will not be alerted of those squads in a system with "ambush" in their profile.  Ambushing units may attack, too, and will start at moderate range, as is normal.  The opponent being attacked will not be alerted of how many ships are attacking him or her if all the ships attacking are in "ambush" mode.  Also, ships being attacked only by ambushers may not have any secondary commands.

*Quick final note: when dealing with damage, only one shield is counted as blocking.  If you opted to get a lazer shield in addition to your basic sheild, you can't use both together to reduce stats.  So if I have a second basic shield (-2 all, -1 extra missiles and machine guns) and a second lazer shield (-1 all, -50% lazers) and I get attacked with a Third Degree Missile (+5 damage), I cannot say "well, -3 for my basic shield AND -1 for my lazer shield, so only one damage.  The shield that will block the most damage will be used, and the other disregarded.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Legion on August 18, 2005, 05:42:57 PM
wow long post...I have read most of it and it sounds very thought out and complex for an internet game, but I have not finished reading it.  I will try to finish it tomorrow, I have just been busy today.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on August 19, 2005, 02:41:21 PM
Things have been hectic the last few days so I haven't really gotten a chance to digest this.  I'll post some comments as soon as I have.  

Don't worry, Gorgon, I'm not ignoring you!
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 19, 2005, 02:42:45 PM
I've put the combat damage into a chart to make it seem less confusing.  It's like a multiplication table--all you have to do is find the weapon on the left and the shield on the top, where they meet is how much damage is done.  Easy as cake.  Mmmmm, cake.  But I can't figure out how to post it as a chart.  It comes out like this....

Weapon - Shield (Ships)      Basic      2nd      3rd      Lazer      2nd      3rd      Photon      2nd      3rd      Gamma      2nd      3rd
Basic Lazer      1      0      0      0      0      0      1      0      0      1      0      0
Basic Photon      2      1      0      2      1      0      0      0      0      2      1      0
Basis Gamma      2      1      0      2      1      0      2      1      0      0      0      0
Basic Machine Gun      0      0      0      1      0      0      1      0      0      1      0      0
Basic Missile (s)      2      1      0      3      2      1      3      2      1      3      2      1
Second-Degree Lazer      2      1      0      1      0      0      2      1      0      2      1      0
Second-Degree Photon      3      2      1      3      2      1      1      1      0      3      2      1
Second-Degree Gamma      3      2      1      3      2      1      3      2      1      1      1      0
Second-Degree Machine Gun      1      0      0      2      1      0      2      1      0      2      1      0
Second-Degree Missile (s)      3      2      1      4      3      2      4      3      2      4      3      2
Primary Lazer      3      2      1      1      1      0      3      2      1      3      2      1
Primary Photon      4      3      2      4      3      2      2      1      1      4      3      2
Primary Gamma      4      3      2      4      3      2      4      3      2      2      1      1
Primary Machine Gun      2      1      0      3      2      1      3      2      1      3      2      1
Primary Missile (s)      4      3      2      5      4      3      5      4      3      5      4      3
*Ships have 5 health on all sides.                  
**When dealing with subtraction and division, subtract damage first, then divide.                  
Weapon-Shield (Men)      Basic      2nd      3rd
Basic Lazer      1      0      0
Basic Machine Gun      2      1      0
Basic Anti-Tank      3      2      1
Basic Rocket      3      2      1
Second-Degree Lazer      2      1      0
Second-Degree Machine Gun      3      2      1
Second-Degree Anti-Tank      4      3      2
Second-Degree Rocket      4      3      2
Primary Lazer      3      2      1
Primary Machine Gun      4      3      2
Primary Anti-Tank      5      4      3
Primary Rocket      5      4      3
*Men have 4 health on each flank.                  
Weapon-Shield (Tank)      Basic      2nd      3rd
Basic Lazer      1      0      0
Basic Machine Gun      0      0      0
Basic Anti-Tank      2      1      0
Basic Rocket      2      1      0
Second-Degree Lazer      2      1      0
Second-Degree Machine Gun      1      0      0
Second-Degree Anti-Tank      3      2      1
Second-Degree Rocket      3      2      1
Primary Lazer      3      2      1
Primary Machine Gun      2      1      0
Primary Anti-Tank      4      3      2
Primary Rocket      4      3      2
*Tanks have 3 health on each flank and 5 health in front.                  

It's a nice, neat chart in Excel...

**MOD: take your time, Mr. P
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 20, 2005, 11:59:42 PM
My thoughts, in no particular order:

Space battles are 3 dimensional, not 2 dimensional.  This complicates things further

The "multiple command" system seems like it would quickly get complicated and difficult to handle for a neutral player (quite a chore, and it seems likely mistakes will be made in executing commands properly).

Attacking would also be a complicated and slow affair, as every individual squad would need such a set of commands for every battle, on top of unit stats.

While we could do this, and it certainly would involve an element of strategy, I wonder if a quicker system could be devised that would be less of a burden on a netural player.

However, that system does have the advantage of taking armour and weapons into account.


Here I'll present two alternative systems we could also consider:

Here's a potential fleet and one potential glance at the combat system to go with it for an alternative.

10 X Starfighters (1 Power [laser] each, 3 defense [evasion] each, size: small, target: small)

1 Heavy Battle Cruiser (7 power [laser], 5 power [concussion missile], 10 defense [shield], 10 defense [armour], size: large, target: large), Synergy: Adds 1 to evasion defense of friendly ships.

1 Missle Boat (10 power [phase missiles], 5 defense [shield] 5 defense [armour], size: medium, target: large) *Cloaking Device installed

Overall strategy:  Hit & Run (Evasion synergies are lost, combat lasts 1 round only, cloaked targets may not be attacked unless all other ships are destroyed)


Opposing force:
3 Z Starfighters (2 power [laser] each, 3 defense [evasion] each, size: small, target: small)

2 Heavy Battle Cruiser (7 power [laser], 5 power [concussion missile], 10 defense [shield], 10 defense [armour], size: large, target: large), Synergy: Adds 1 to evasion defense of friendly ships.

Overall strategy:  Concentrate and Destroy (Large ships add 25% armour bonuses for each large ship, all evasion bonuses are doubled, first strike bonuses are lost)


Notes:
Laser = standard weapon, 1 power deals 1 point to shields OR 1 point to armour.  Lasers are always fired before missiles
Concussion Missiles = 1 power deals 1 point to shields OR 2 points to armour, inutile against evasion
Evasion = attacking power must be greater than evasion to destroy.  Starfighter squads may total power and compare that to opposing evasion.  That many starships are lost.
Phase missles = ignore shields, do damage directly to armour.
Cloaking Device = grants "first strike"


Okay, so when combat commences, every ship has a size and a "target".  The target is the size of ship this ship will attack first.  In this conflict, the Hit & Run force is doing a brief assault (fleeing after 1 round), in an attempt to damage the opposing force but not destroy it.

So, let's pair up targets:
The starfighters (X & Z) attack eachother
The missile boat and cruiser (1) attacks the other cruisers (2).  The other cruisers (2) atack cruiser 1.

First thing is the cloaked unit takes a first attack with an element of surprise:  The missle boat deals 10 damage straight to the armour of Cruiser 2a, who is left with only 3 armour (because of the 25% strategy bonus; 13-10 = 3)

The cruisers then attack.  Cruiser 1 has to attack one of the other cruisers.  However, since both are large and attacking it, what it will attack is determined by a) if it can destroy one and not another, it will attack what it can destroy, and b) if it can destroy multiple targets, it will destroy the largest.  If it can not destroy any, it will attack the whatever it can do the most damage to, or the weakest.  So it will attack Cruiser 2a, since it can destroy it, and not Cruiser 2b.

Cruiser 1 deals 10 points of damage to Cruiser 2a's shields (7 laser, 3 missile), bringing them to 0, and then the remain 2 concussion missle power multiplies x2 to do 4 damage, which destroys Cruiser 2a (3-4 = dead).  Cruisers 2a and 2b fire on Cruiser 1 at the same time, however, dealing 14 points of laser damage (destroying its shield and bringing it down to 6 armour, and then finish it off with 20 points of concussive damage ([5+5]x2).

In the starfighter battle, Squad X has 10 power and 3 evasion, while Squad Z has 6 power and 7 evasion each (3 + 2 [doubled for strategy bonus]).

X deals 10-7 (3) damage to Z, which is enough to destroy both starfighters, and Z deals 6-3 (3) damage back, destroying 3 of the 10 starfighers in X.

And then Force 1 flees with its 7 remaining starfighters and missle boat, while Force 2 has only 1 battle cruiser.


So that's another potential system.  Fairly complicated on the unit-level, but much simpler in dealing with overall strategies.


I'll mention the next (even simpler) later.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 21, 2005, 12:30:26 AM
That's a lot of stats to deal with.  It seems to me that it wouldn't be much easier to compare damage to evasion or evasion for multiple ships and then factor in things like first strike and special abilities of the such that than it would be to factor in the secondary commands.

But you are right, that is a rather deep flaw in my system, which I think could be fixed without loosing the strategic element.  Perhaps no secondary commands to units that aren't moving?  Or just one?

I may be missing something here, but how does the new system show 3D warefare any better than the one I posted?  Your units are specifically told to attack another unit.  It doesn't matter if that unit is above you or in front of you, or wherever else in the 3D atmosphere of battle, they still attack it.  As for movement, a range is a range.  Moving just tells them to get closer, whether it be down or up or whichever way...
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 21, 2005, 02:10:06 AM
Actually, I don't think this system is necessarily any better than yours.  It's one alternative to consider, however.

It handles 3d combat by ignoring dimensions entirely.  There is no such things as flanks in this system.

Like I said, I have another system which I feel is simpler than both of these, which may also be worth considering.

The more ideas we have to look at, the better we will be to form an opinion as to what course to take.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: GorgonlaVacaTremendo on August 21, 2005, 01:33:11 PM
I didn't mean to make it seem like I was bashing this system, I just don't think it seems much simpler.  If your other simpler system is still strategic then we should probably go with that one.  The simpler the better.  I never said that yours was being promoted as better than mine, just being promoted as showing 3D warfare better than mine.  

Anyway, I'm excited to see your other system, as this one is well done, so if you have a simpler version it should be readily applicable.
Title: Re: Combat
Post by: The Jade Knight on August 22, 2005, 03:59:55 AM
The last one nixes weapon and armour types (perhaps someone can find a way to integrate them), and overly simplifies.


Sample army (space-based):

# Type (power/HP each)

Force 1:
10 X starfighters (1/3)
1 Heavy Battle Cruiser (5/10), adds 1 to power of accompanying starfighters [support synergy]
1 Missle Boat (10/5) *opponent must sacrifice largest unit possible, *cloaking device
Total power as set:  35

Force 2:
2 Z starfighters (2/3)
2 Heavy Battle Cruisers (5/10), adds 1 to power of accompanying starfighters (each) [support synergy]
Total power as set:  18




Tactics (we'd want AT LEAST 6 or 7 of these, if not 10 or 15):
Hit & Run  (Cloaking units may not be wounded if any non-cloaked units are present)
Mass & Destroy (support synergies are doubled)
Divide & Conquer (attack synergies are doubled)
Ambush

We'll only look at two of these for simplicity's sake, but assume they all match up on a grid with this result

Hit & Run vs. Mass & Destroy:  +20%/-50% casualties
Mass & Destroy vs. Divide & Conquer:  +50%/full cas


The first percentages are bonuses applied to the first strategy's overall power.

Assuming the first group takes a Hit & Run approach, and the 2nd takes a Mass & Destroy approach, the first group gets a total power of 42, and the second gets 22 (for the synergy bonuses).

The -50% casualties means we halve all damage, so Force 2 takes 21 points of damage, and force 2 takes 11.

Force 1 decides to put 5 damage on its battle cruiser, and sacrifices 2 X starfighters (for a total of 11 damage), force 2, because of the missile boat, is required to sacrifice one of its battle cruisers (10), and then gets creative, putting another 9 on its other cruiser, and then 2 on one of its starfighters, for a total of 21.

So force two is left with 2 starfighters (one crippled), and one crippled battle cruiser, while force 1 is left with 8 starfighters, 1 damaged battle cruiser, and its missile boat.


The point here is to have tactics which work as a sort of ro-sham-bo system, where each tactic has an innate bonus (by doubling synergies, etc.), but each tactic match up offers different bonuses/penalties, requiring players to outguess eachother, and figure out what tactics they think the other player will be using, and then trounce them with a countering tactic.

After combat, each player can assign damage as he/she likes to his/her own units.  It would be good if there was some sort of incentive to kill off units, though (such as special events/cards which can do damage to ships, or tactics which penalize players with wounded ships, or saying that 50% wounded ships can't hyperjump, or something.


The major advantages to this system is that A) is is very simple, B) there is fleet customization in special rules and synergies, C) there is TONS of strategy in the use of tactics, where players have to consider force size, synergies, and tactic matchings to try to outwit eachother in the tactic department.


In addition, we could include "admirals" and stick them on certain ships and say that they affect power/defense/synergies/tactics/etc., if we wanted.  Or if someone has a more innovated way of employing admirals, that would be better yet.

So, what do you think?