Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Lost_Kyte on September 27, 2006, 02:11:59 PM
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[ Spoiler included ] So what would you rather have? Feruchemy or Allomancy? Tough question, huh? I know some of you have had the privilege of reading Mistborn 2 & 3 but I'm not really asking what you think Brandon's going to develop. I'm just very curious about which magic you'd rather have...
And no fair saying you'd be like the Lord Ruler. ;)
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I'd still rather be the Lord Ruler, be that fair or not. I just wouldn't put myself in charge. That way people wouldn't try to depose me, and I could tell them the important secrets. Everything would be more stable.
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I think I'd go with Feruchemy.
That way, I could keep the metals on me at all times, whereas with Allomancy, you have to burn all the metals in your stomach eventually (or bad stuff happens). And I'd have more control of how much I would use (either a little stronger for a long time or super strong for a short time).
And I really, really like the idea of remembering everything!
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I'm an Allomancy girl myself. Feruchemy is great for long term use -- it would definitely be more helpful in a situation or 'job' that has been planned out for a while.
Allomancy has the advantage of being able to be used so long as you can find metal you can burn. Once you run out of strength with Feruchemy, that's it -- at least from what we know -- until you store it once more. Allomancy also has atium, which could (theoretically) allow an Allomancer to beat out a Feruchemist.
Besides, the ability to Soothe or Riot people's emotions would be so deliciously fun that I couldn't resist Allomancy.
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I'm into Allomancy myself too. Feruchemy seems so brutal. I mean I know a Pewter burn would be wretched but for the most part the metals don't seem to damage the body at all. Whereas if I wanted to store up strength with Feruchemy I'd have to be weak for awhile. -.- That's not my idea of fun.
I'd have to be a Mistborn though. To be a Tineye and know that I could, if I'd been born just a bit different, be able to do more would drive me nuts.
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To be fair, in the first book, EUOL hasn't really described the rules of Feruchemy as well as he has Allomancy. For example, we know that to collect Feruchemical power, you have to spend time being weak, or tired, or whatever the case may be. But we haven't really been exposed to the process, beyond the occasional hinting with Sazed. Also, we don't know if there is a limitation on how much Feruchemical power can be released at one time, as I recall. And, we still don't know all of the Feruchemical powers. However, judged on the information we have been given, I think I would rather be a Mistborn for a few reasons. For one thing, it would be much easier to train yourself in Allomancy than Feruchemy, because you wouldn't have to have a large refractory period wherein you would have to be weak, blind, etc. You also don't have atium, emotional allomancy, or the ability to push and pull metals. That takes away the ability to "fly" and it also takes away one of the primary offensive weapons, meaning that, short of throwing things, a Feruchemist is strictly melee. This wouldn't be a pretty significant disadvantage in and of itself, but it also means that they are less mobile, so they won't always be able to get at the target they want. Beside that, you saw what Kelsier did to that last Inquisitor with metal.
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It's somewhat hard to choose between the two. If I were to have the powers in my life right now, and assuming I would not be some sort of soldier, there is a strong argument for both.
Allomancy (only if a Mistborn and not just a misting): I like this because I wouldn't have to store anything up to be able to use the powers. I would just need to have metals with me (which you would need for Feruchemy too). I like that idea. In my life, I would probably use the emotional stuff a lot (like if my husband were mad at me, I'd sooth his anger and riot his love for me) and I would use steel pushing and pulling to travel, with pewter to strengthen my body to deal with the stress. Pewter would be awesome during things like giving birth, or if you hurt yourself, too.
Feruchemy: This would be awesome if you wanted to be a scholar or an expert in an area of study. This would also be great for journaling, so you wouldn't forget stuff that happens to you. So this would really be an awesome thing, but at the same time, it's not like you would just remember everything. As I understand it, it's not a video, but more like as if it were written down. So you would still have to take the time to create the entry (just as you need time to write in you journal).
So I think between the two, I would choose Allomancy. Being able to keep a great deal of knowledge with you would be cool, but I think I would use the former more on a day to day basis.
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Mistborn. Though if I was a Feruchemist, I'd be storing up Weight all the time. I would totally hook my arms up to some wings, turn off my weight, and fly away.
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In the first book, Sazed does store speed. Granted, he says that it's a difficult trait to store, but it can be done. Which means that, at least for short periods, you could be the flash. Good luck with that atium and coin shooting, because I'm going to have a knife in your neck before you can even start to burn anything. and even if you *did* burn atium, it's not going to make you fast enough to respond to me.
So if you're deciding based on combat ability, well, Allomancy doesn't have the advantage you give it to, not unless the feruchemist hasn't been preparing.
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I think I'd be a Feruchemist, although Hemalurgy sounds awesome right now, mainly because, Sazed gathered enough strength to knockout an INQUISITOR! Powers of that sort would be awesome. Though I might miss the whole steel/iron burning stuff.
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Sazed uses Feruchemy, not Hemalurgy.
Edit, to SE: It depends, can you release all of your built up powers at once? Also, burning seems to be pretty instantaneous, so between pewter and atium, I think that an Allomancer would still probably have the jump on a Feruchemist. Even if not, the Allomancer can just launch themselves in the air (assuming they have a coinpouch) and wait for the Feruchemist to wear their stores out, which shouldn't take long if they are using that much at one time. And, while they are waiting, they can just pelt the Feruchemist with coins and random pieces of metal that happen to be about.
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I know what Sazed uses, Archon. :P ::) But Hemalurgy still even SOUNDS cooler! :) ;D
And, about what you said to E, if a Feruchemist had srength stored as well, wouldn't he just jump, or throw things? And, if he has enough stored up healing, good luck with taking him out with a pouch of coins. ;D
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He could jump, but a Mistborn who can push can get as high as he wants, whereas jumping only gets you so high. He could throw things, but not metal things, and the Mistborn can just dodge, or push a coin against whatever the Feruchemist throws. Also, even if they have stored healing, the Mistborn can make them expend that so they don't use it when they finally fight hand to hand.
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Nerds.
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Archon, Kelsier says somewhere in the book that Feuchemy doesn't have the limitations alchemy doesn't have the limitations that Alchemy does, and it is either flat out said or implied that Feruchemists could drain as much out of his or her stores at one time, while you can only get a certain amount of strength by flaring Pewter, for example.
Also, the stolen journal talks of Terrismen lifting huge boulders like feathers and chucking them out of the way, not a feat doable through alchemy. Kelsier flares pewter just to pull a ficture out of a wall--even though it was a heavy safe that was secured well, the point is it takes less strength to do that than it does to lift a boulder.
Somewhere, it might be on the forums or in the book (I'm not sure), Sanderson implies or says that Feruchemy can be used to store nearly any physical, personal trait (as long as you have the right metal), but cannot affect anything external, such as emotions. That's really the main advantage Alchemy has.
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but cannot affect anything external, such as emotions.  That's really the main advantage Alchemy has.
Alchemy? You mean "Allomancy"? But, yeah, Allomancy can affect external things but the *other* big advantage is if you have the metal, you can burn it at any time, you needn't store it up like with Feruchemy (as Archon and Tink mentioned).
That said, it's dang hard to choose! I think I'd have to go with Feruchemy, though. I mean, I could ace every test I ever had to take. I could memorize my favorite novels and never have to refer to Chicago or the dictionary again! whoo-hoo! But, best of all, I would store all those extra pounds away and just throw the metal out! I can't say how completely amazing that would be!
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I don't know why but i'd rather be an Allomancer. They can do several different things that i love, such as Atium... or can Feruchemists use Atium?
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I would venture to say they can't use atium the way Allomancers can. How can you store up visions of the future? You could store up history though, like gold.
I'm sticking with Allomancy!
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It is specifically stated that the feruchemist can dump it all at once. and even if burning is instantaneous, if I've stored enough speed, I can have that knife in your neck before the thought processes have even registered what's going to happen and told your body to move.
and, hooray for you for pushing a coin against the thing thrown at you. If it's heavier than you, you're just going to push yourself away.
As for hanging up in the air, a) your atium won't last forever, either, and assuming I'll be using up my resources while I cant' reach you is foolish. b) I can find what metal you're pushing on and move it, probably causing you to crash into things. "Oh, you're pushing on this nail? How about I rip it out with stored strength and toss it over there so you go flying in that other direction."
Allomancers can do quite a lot, but trust me, even when they do stand up to a feruchemist, it won't be nearly so one-sided as you seem to think.
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Now I'm imagining barracks full of blind, deaf, comatose, feruchemist soldiers, tied down to the beds so they don't float away, just waiting to be called upon.
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I would venture to say they can't use atium the way Allomancers can. How can you store up visions of the future? You could store up history though, like gold.
I'm sticking with Allomancy!
Atium is actually the metal the Lord Ruler used to store up age.
For those who are at an unfair disadvantage, the known properties of Feruchemy (via the glossary to book two) are:
Iron:
Stores Physical Weight
Steel:
Stores Physical Speed
Tin:
Stores Senses (One sense per tinmind)
Pewter:
Stores Physical Strength
Brass:
Stores Warmth
Zinc:
Stores Mental Speed
Copper:
Stores Memories
Bronze:
Stores Wakefulness
Atium:
Stores Age
Malatium:
UNKNOWN
Gold:
Stores Health
Electrum:
UNKNOWN
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I don't think you mentioned the age-bracelets were atium. Did anyone ever find these atium bracelets? There would be a lot there to use! Or would they be useless to anyone else because they had some age/youth in them?
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I forgot about them, honestly, when I did the first draft of book two. They're now mentioned in the rewrite.
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So Allomancers can see a bit in advance, but feruchemists are 10x more powerful. Even if you could see what was going to happen, they could have so much speed stored up that you wouldn't even be able to react.
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Now that's an interesting thought... I think I'm going to have to chew on it for awhile. I'm not totally convinced that super speed-of-light would be better than a few seconds of foresight.
Thanks for the notes brandon. :) Didn't know the names malatium and electrum either!
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Now i'm even more excited (If possible) For Mistborn 2 and 3. I know this lucky guy who works at Waldenbooks who already has them. :'(
But anyways. I still think that Mistborns are cooler in attitude and their awesome cloaks, but now i'm convinced that Feruchemists are much more powerful. But If you can get to one while they're weak and storing energy, then you can kill them.
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Don't forget the whole eunuch thing.
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That's true. I don't think that's a trade-off I'd be willing to make.
Which reminds me, are all stewards, inquisitors and obligators men?
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There are female Keepers.
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Lots of Female Keepers (one of the main characters in book two is one), no female Inquisitors or obligators (since the Lord Ruler was pretty much in charge of who got to do both.) However, there weren't actually hard fast rules, so I could see a determined woman ending up in the Steel Ministry if she put her mind to it.
Also possible, for role playing reasons, for a Feruchemist to end up not a eunuch. There would have to be a very good reason, though. (The Keepers kept him hidden, or perhaps he's a half-Terrisman, living in the underground.)
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Or if *SPOILER* now that the Lord Ruler is dead, and there were ones who were not eunuchs who survived, they could have children. It's not like you have to be a eunuch to be a Feruchemist. The Lord Ruler just instituted that to try and prevent someone like him, with both sets of powers (who could then be a real foe for him).
Question for Brandon: Were the female Keepers somehow made so they can't have children as well? This might be an embarassing question. I'm just not knowledgeable on whether there is a way to keep women from having children like there is men (without extensive surgery). I could just be ignorant of it, though. If the Lord Ruler was relying on the fact that the men could not have children to keep the Terris people from having keepers, then the women Keepers could have half-breeds who are Keepers as well, right?
I'm actually surprised that he just tried to prevent them from having children rather than genocide. I guess it has something to do with him being a Terrisman, but that doesn't seem a strong enough reason to me.
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Tink,
Yes, he has a way of stopping female Keepers from bearing children. He kills them.
Remember, being a Terrisman doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make one a Keeper. The vast majority of the population has no Feruchemical powers. Once, it was very common--but, the point of the breeding program was so that the Lord Ruler could try to breed Feruchemy out of the population without being forced to slaughter everyone from his homeland.
So, a female Keeper--like a male one--would have to remain hidden. The fact that Sazed was a Keeper had no effect on whether or not he was a eunuch. He was castrated as a child because the breeders controlled the population primarily by making eunuchs of all the men they didn't want breeding. Then, they would select certain women to be 'Breeders' and use them to bear children via the men they didn't castrate. The other women were all still fertile--but all of the men they interacted with were eunuchs, so it didn't really matter.
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I just thought of something. Feruchemists can't toy with emotions, or hide and seek for other allomancers. This could prove really useful for the allomancers if they were to fight feruchemists.
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I'd prefer Allomancy, assuming I was Mistborn. I'd like to have sway over someone's emotions, (muahahhahaha) *ahem* and the fighting is just awesome.
Sides...the Allomancer got Elend...and I wouldn't mind having one of my own! :-*
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So I had a thought, and so as not to start a completely new thread, I'm bringing this one back up.
I'd like to at least try Feruchemy over Allomancy, and this is why:
Most skills require something saved up in order to use it later. Alright, all of them. But weight can really be played with both ways. We know in Sazed's fight with Marsh that when he increased his weight, it threw Marsh instead. But he also could avoid damage from getting hit by decreasing his weight. Sure any blow would throw him, but his lack of weight would keep bones from breaking, and the wind resistance would slow him down before he went too far. Plus, with normal muscles he'd be capable of impressive acrobatics, though he'd have problems on a windy day, and a coin shot at him would be problematic unless he could get out of the way before hitting something... And he could move much faster with a little less weight. Throw punches with high speed and increasing weight before they hit to increase impact. That would save on Pewter.
All that would take a ton of practice, and he'd have to probably get the metals pierced into him or swallowed (or use the ones already buried inside his stomach), but Sazed could be deadly. Especially if he saved up on gold, steel, zinc, tin, and pewter.
I wonder if bronze has a use beyond comfort and survival in extreme temperatures.
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yeah, sure from what we've seen Feruchemy is more powerful, but really, Allomancy is so much cooler. I mean, Mistborn can fly. Who wouldn't trade a little power for the right to not only stalk the streets at night in eery gray pajamas, but also fly and get to call yourself a "Mist-born!!"
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So really then, with a combination of Feruchemy and Allomancy, you really could fly. Not just shoot up into the air and fall. It'd be insanely cool. Of course, a mix of all three would make one even more insanely cool. Except for the part about being controlled by Ruin. Not cool. Not at all.
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So really then, with a combination of Feruchemy and Allomancy, you really could fly. Not just shoot up into the air and fall. It'd be insanely cool. Of course, a mix of all three would make one even more insanely cool. Except for the part about being controlled by Ruin. Not cool. Not at all.
lol plus the part where you have great big spikes sticking out of your eyeballs, being a psychotic, antisocial murderer, and that you get kicks out of torturing helpless innocents. Not cool.
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i think that allomancy is the way to go. I under stand that with Feruchemy you have the ability to use your stores of power all at once and at that point become amazingly powerful but, as someone already pointed out what does a Feruchemy user do when those stores run out? i understand that allomancy requires metals that also run out but let say for the sake of argument you were a mistborn fighting a Feruchemist. The Feruchemist would be able to alter their abilities for however long they have stored said ability, the allomancer can use lets say pewter for example for as long as they have a supply ( i mention pewter due to the abundance of it in the books hence the bags of pewter dust). so in reality Feruchemy does have some advantages but it also have very large disadvantages. while allomancy, at least the way i look at it has very few disadvantages. and im not just baseing this on fighting ability the argument is aplicable to all of the abilities it was just an easy and understandable way to make my point.
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Plus, with Allomancy, you can affect your enemies from afar, Feruchemy has only internal abilities. Feruchemists also can't affect other's emotions, which I think could be a huge advantage. If you got good enough, and it didn;t divide your attention to much (you'd have to be good at multitasking) imagine soothing and rioting your enemy durning a fight, making them more unsure, tired, and beaten down, more fearful, or quick bursts of durulium enhanced soothing and rioting at the same time, would make for a great distraction, they would be momentarily overwhelmed, and you could move in for the kill.
That, and I'd want to try Vin's horse shoe thing, that's just cool!
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I'm more of a pacifist myself.
I think that having Feruchemy, primarily because I think that knowledge is the key to . . . everything basically. And to be able to store things and bring them back would be amazing. PLUS while you sat around reading in order to learn, you could store age, because you don't have to be young to read, which would give you even more time to learn more things.
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I'm more of a pacifist myself.
PLUS while you sat around reading in order to learn, you could store age, because you don't have to be young to read, which would give you even more time to learn more things.
? Feruchemists can't store age. You would have to spend an equal amount of time old as you did young. Only the lord Ruler could do that because he was an Allomancer as well. The way i understand it he was able to burn his Feruchemical piercings so the equal-time rule didn't apply to him.
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I think what Miyabi is trying to say, is that he would stay extremely old while doing research and stuff, so he wouldn't waste his youth, and then be young later on when his research is done, so he can still enjoy life, he's still spending the same amount of time old and young, just in a different order, I think.
And I would still pick Allomancy: the freedom of flying through the mists, and I would be interested in the self examination gold and electrum could give me. I think Allomancy would just be incredibly freeing, and I love emotional allomancy so much, I would love to have it myself.
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I think what Miyabi is trying to say, is that he would stay extremely old while doing research and stuff, so he wouldn't waste his youth, and then be young later on when his research is done, so he can still enjoy life, he's still spending the same amount of time old and young, just in a different order, I think.
ahhhh, now i get it. yeah that would be pretty cool, choose when you want to be young.
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I think what Miyabi is trying to say, is that he would stay extremely old while doing research and stuff, so he wouldn't waste his youth, and then be young later on when his research is done, so he can still enjoy life, he's still spending the same amount of time old and young, just in a different order, I think.
ahhhh, now i get it. yeah that would be pretty cool, choose when you want to be young.
That's exactly what I meant. ROFL!
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I think what Miyabi is trying to say, is that he would stay extremely old while doing research and stuff, so he wouldn't waste his youth, and then be young later on when his research is done, so he can still enjoy life, he's still spending the same amount of time old and young, just in a different order, I think.
ahhhh, now i get it. yeah that would be pretty cool, choose when you want to be young.
ROFL!
yeah, i guess i deserved that :(
btw woah, Comatose you changed your profile pic, i had gotten so used to recognizing your posts by the bright slash of orange across the page i thought you were someone else!
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I think what Miyabi is trying to say, is that he would stay extremely old while doing research and stuff, so he wouldn't waste his youth, and then be young later on when his research is done, so he can still enjoy life, he's still spending the same amount of time old and young, just in a different order, I think.
ahhhh, now i get it. yeah that would be pretty cool, choose when you want to be young.
ROFL!
yeah, i guess i deserved that :(
btw woah, Comatose you changed your profile pic, i had gotten so used to recognizing your posts by the bright slash of orange across the page i thought you were someone else!
I did that same thing.
In any case choosing when to be young would be amazingtastic, as well as being able to know a lot.
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Allomancy, its better for those who cant be prepared...Feruchmists need to store energy for weeks, months even...just think back to how many times Vin was attacked suddenly and needed to use her powers...now imagine she was a Feru and not Allo? Do think she would have been perpared everytime...between all the assassins, the inquistors, and....actually i think Vin would have been perpared--but just her--anyone one else...not so much, well atleast not me.
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Allomancy, its better for those who cant be prepared...Feruchmists need to store energy for weeks, months even...just think back to how many times Vin was attacked suddenly and needed to use her powers...now imagine she was a Feru and not Allo? Do think she would have been perpared everytime...between all the assassins, the inquistors, and....actually i think Vin would have been perpared--but just her--anyone one else...not so much, well atleast not me.
Yes, but I'm more of a scholar and less of a fighter.
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A scholar...thats cool. I love learning about new things, and reading...does that make me a scholar?? Hmm. I like Feruchemy in this world, that way i can store everything my girlfriend has to say, and even her mom's name without having really listen...that would be nice...and if she was mad at me i could always just store my energy into one of my metals and claim im sick and she will then turn to me with caring eyes and give me sweet puppy love.....yeah Feruchemy would be awesome!
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-_- typical male.
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Typical female response to the typical male.
(Say NO to stereotypes, kids.)
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Typical female response to the typical male.
(Say NO to stereotypes, kids.)
Except I'm not a female! ha ha.
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"except im not a female"
Is that good or bad?
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wow i messed that up...good it'll keep me humble. :-\
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Whoops. Sorry about that. That's what I get for typing replies first thing in the "morning."
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It's fine. I get that a lot.
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That was amusing.
I dunno while the points that elmandr1 would be awesome I find that you would have to learn all that stuff more than once. Sazed had to learn everything he stored and then commit it to his metalminds. Once he recalled the memory he sometimes would then have to relearn all the info to restore it properly in the metal mind. Now the whole sick thing would come in handy all the time but I for one would rather the Allo powers. If my memory starts to fade Ill write things down but until then Im kinda sure that flying around with heightened senses and power would be a little to good to pass up on.
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For me, it would probably depend on what metals I had access to. (And if I knew what the last two metals on the wheel were, and if there are other metals.)
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Sorry Miyabi if i offended you in anyway dude. :-\. Im not really like that actually, i mean i was kidding before about that whole my girlfriend bit. In all seriousness, i would probably be an Allo if a lived in Luthedal but only for sheer necessity. however here, in this world, Feruchemy without any doubt, i could read all the books i want never forget them. Oh! I could read the Thesarus, the Dictionary, and the Quran! Admitly, i would be pretty awesome to be like Sazed. Miyabi dude im sorry.
p.s. if anyone has any suggestions for books i coulf read, rather than wait until the 14th that would be coolness.
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Sorry Miyabi if i offended you in anyway dude. :-\. Im not really like that actually, i mean i was kidding before about that whole my girlfriend bit. In all seriousness, i would probably be an Allo if a lived in Luthedal but only for sheer necessity. however here, in this world, Feruchemy without any doubt, i could read all the books i want never forget them. Oh! I could read the Thesarus, the Dictionary, and the Quran! Admitly, i would be pretty awesome to be like Sazed. Miyabi dude im sorry.
p.s. if anyone has any suggestions for books i coulf read, rather than wait until the 14th that would be coolness.
I definitely think you SHOULD memorize the dictionary. ha ha. j/k. No, you didn't offend me, I just like to make statements where I put myself in another persons perspective. Like if I was my friend Missy, that's what she would have said, so I said it. ha ha. I just like to bring in different ideals now and then, it's fun.
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I definitely think you SHOULD memorize the dictionary. ha ha. j/k. No, you didn't offend me, I just like to make statements where I put myself in another persons perspective. Like if I was my friend Missy, that's what she would have said, so I said it. ha ha. I just like to bring in different ideals now and then, it's fun.
Thats sounds...challenging. Let me see what would Dr. Cox from Scrubs say to that. Oh!
"miyabe, for all that is good in the god forsaken place ne-ha-ver again try and explain things like that to me. I mean really, i dont care. You want to know just how much i dont care? hmm, lets see. Let me just make a list of all the things i would rather do then read another one of your "what i like to do" messeges. I would rather eat cactus, milk a bull, drive a pink escort, am i making myself clear? "cuz the list goes on and on and on and on and on? Why are you still reading? newbie? Leave. Now."
Ok. you dont watch scrubs, first of all, whats wrong with you and secondly that was a perfect Dr. Cox.
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Uhm, see you say Dr. Cox and I think of my friend's dad. I have no clue who Dr. Cox is, I've never seen [Scrubs]
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Uhm, see you say Dr. Cox and I think of my friend's dad. I have no clue who Dr. Cox is, I've never seen [Scrubs]
scrubs is quite frankly an awesomely funny show. Watch it.
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Chaos2651. You are the HOA and you watch scrubs? I am overwhelmed by your awesomeness...well not really overwhelmed. Perhaps im just whelmed. Yup. We'll go with im Whelmed.
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Chaos2651. You are the HOA and you watch scrubs? I am overwhelmed by your awesomeness...well not really overwhelmed. Perhaps im just whelmed. Yup. We'll go with im Whelmed.
I'm overwhelmed that even though I haven't posted in this topic for ages, you mentioned my name.
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Besides, he's not really the hero. He's more like Vin, appearing to be the hero, but actually only distracting from me, the real hero.
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Besides, he's not really the hero. He's more like Vin, appearing to be the hero, but actually only distracting from me, the real hero.
Maybe you are just Rashek, believing to be the Hero.
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You shouldn't say things like that. The only reason we know that Rashek is not the Hero is because I am.
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You know what because I like both of you and Chaos has a follower I think I'll throw my lot in with Andrew. I mean how could he not be the HoA with a name that ends in The Great. Plus Chaos gets fell points and thats not sweet.
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You know what because I like both of you and Chaos has a follower I think I'll throw my lot in with Andrew. I mean how could he not be the HoA with a name that ends in The Great. Plus Chaos gets fell points and thats not sweet.
Your church vs. mine!
It's definitly Chaos2651, think about it. The HOA will hold the greatest power in the known land, The HOA will have the ability to change worlds, create and destroy anything.
Which makes him dangerous. Remember what we read in the begining of book three, knowing the power is different then understanding it.
And so i argue, my fellow followers to be, who can better avoid and understand how to keep way from such disasters than CHAOS itself? CHAOS is not his name! NO, it is who he is. Rashek did not know what the consequences of his actions, he wasn't aware of the manner in which Chaos emerged. And so, from his foolishness, it came, and usurped the world, killing all beauty and crippling life! We need a HOA that knws the innerworkings of Chaos so that he might avoid setting them off....If he so chooses, that is.
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For reply please see the "Election" thread, and for all debate questions please contact in PM so a debate can be scheduled. Thank you
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oh this ones easy. If it were real life or in the book I would choose feruchemy. The reasons are very simple. Its better ha ha XD lol just kidding. But I do have some points I can make that feruchemy wouldn't totally be useless.
1. You don't need to get more of that metal(with correct percentages of alloys and what not)
2. You can store attributes and use them as a boost and can vary the intensity that you use the attribute and how long it lasts for.
Basically its easier to get a hold of you don't need to always get more metals and constantly wonder if your gonna burn out. The 2nd point I made is why I really think Sazed was being fairly stupid in his way of using feruchemy. I see so many possibilities. For example since we know that feruchemy lets you store attributes and use them however we want I can just imagine a person using it to fly around light as a feather for a minute or so then in 1 second use it all to fall on one person with all they weight used in a single blow. I find that amusing since if you can waste it all in one go the weight of your fall will be multiplied. why not store pewter make yourself light by storing weight than jump and fall down on them while tapping into strength and weight at the same time. I think there is a lot to be explored in feruchemy battles XD as we know Sazed is a scholar not a fighter. Just imagine what a fighter could do.
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It is specifically stated that the feruchemist can dump it all at once. and even if burning is instantaneous, if I've stored enough speed, I can have that knife in your neck before the thought processes have even registered what's going to happen and told your body to move.
and, hooray for you for pushing a coin against the thing thrown at you. If it's heavier than you, you're just going to push yourself away.
As for hanging up in the air, a) your atium won't last forever, either, and assuming I'll be using up my resources while I cant' reach you is foolish. b) I can find what metal you're pushing on and move it, probably causing you to crash into things. "Oh, you're pushing on this nail? How about I rip it out with stored strength and toss it over there so you go flying in that other direction."
Allomancers can do quite a lot, but trust me, even when they do stand up to a feruchemist, it won't be nearly so one-sided as you seem to think.
Imagine what would happen if they stored up weight while they tapped speed! Oh I sense supersonic afterimages and ninja like death strikes! Add a little bit of pewter and you have a tank!
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This depends on your life-if you have stability, Feruchemy is probably going to be more useful. If you have to stay on the go, Allomancy would be quicker-you need to worry less about your metal stores than a Feruchemist would have to worry about their stores.
I can't stop thinking of how good Feruchemy would be if you need to take a test- super speed writing, super fast thinking, incredible amounts of information at hand...
This would also translate in a fight; Feruchemists should be able to outwit Allomancers, as they can increase their thought processes...
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Of course you'd have to spend quite some amount of time feeling and being very stupid. I suppose you don't need intellect while sleeping....
wow I just had this image of a feruchemist storing smarts while sleeping, his headphones going softly: "breath in, breath out. Breath in, breath out."
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Remember, you can't charge any metalmind other than for wakefulness when you sleep. However, I don't need to be smart all the time. In fact, I could use the spare time I have (Which is often in little chunks too small to do anything with) to charge them.
Ha...Jeopardy would have to ban all metals from a person...
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huh, must've forgotten that. ???
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the answer for me would be allomancy, assuming we're talking mistborn and not just a misting. feruchemy is seriously awesome and has its own things.... but it has drawbacks too. for one, you have to spend so much time storing atributes where in allomancy you just take it from somewhere else. plus.. you eat metal. thats awesome.
feruchemists cant really go 'flying' about cities the way allomancers do, what with steel pushing and iron pulling and so on.
feruchemists tinminds do not help their vision with darkness as much as tin does for allomancers.
and then theres atium.
all in all being an allomancer would just be more fun.
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the answer for me would be allomancy, assuming we're talking mistborn and not just a misting. feruchemy is seriously awesome and has its own things.... but it has drawbacks too. for one, you have to spend so much time storing atributes where in allomancy you just take it from somewhere else. plus.. you eat metal. thats awesome.
feruchemists cant really go 'flying' about cities the way allomancers do, what with steel pushing and iron pulling and so on.
feruchemists tinminds do not help their vision with darkness as much as tin does for allomancers.
and then theres atium.
all in all being an allomancer would just be more fun.
Well if you think about it where would you get all that metal? I mean if we are talking about in their world it might be helpfull then then if not you'd have to go looking for it every single time you need more. Well I think feruchemists can fly around sort (more like old chinese style movies with the tree jumping).(plus they could totally be ninja lol). All they have to do is store weight and use some of their pewter mind to get the leap started then mid jump store more pewter. You don't lose any strength an gain weight for later use (imagines a 10 ton fall on a mistborn trying to steel push him back up hehehe). Actually feruchemists can use their metalminds at any setting. Mistborn have only 3 on, off and flare. So technically they can have better vision and senses than even a tin savant but only for a short period of time =]. Aw comon atium you had to pull that one out. Well a emptying out of a steelmind in 1 second could beat that hehe. how are you going to dodge or fight back when you can't move fast enough muahahah! Well i guess eating metal would be kinda cool....
It seems this post was totally useless.
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I dunno, I think Feruchemy is a lot more versatile...
I wouldn't mind being weak for extended periods because that's how I usually am so it wouldn't make much difference. Allomancers can't heal rapidly with Gold or make themselves older or younger with Atium. And it'd be fun to store Weight and release Strength at the same time, allowing yourself to fly around like the Hulk (he jumps far, very very far). And you can always store an attribute any time you're not using it -- I'd only release the Strength for landings and jumps and go back to storing it while in the air.
All in all, I think the known Feruchemical powers are fairly evenly matched with the known Allomantic powers, and there are a lot more Feruchemical powers we don't even know about!
Ahem. Hemalurgy sucks because you have to go to all that nasty trouble of killing people. Uh...I mean...Hemalurgy is bad for ETHICAL reasons! Yeah. Plus, like, anyone can use Hemalurgy. At least it seems to be a universal power -- anyone with the ability to kill something with a spike can use Hemalurgy. Boooooring.
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personaly I have to say feruchemy would be far more useful to me I think then allomancy. reasons?
#1. I would love the ability to place a few unpleasant memories into a metalmind, then um, lose it somewhere :D and be able to keep any memories I DONT want to lose forever.
#2. the storeing youth etc would be REALLY useful back in the days when I was younger. i.e. want to go out drinking and gambleing but only 16? no problem, store some youth and be older for a day. :D nobody questions someone who looks 40... then when one gets old, but wants to go have some fun like you were young again, all that stored youth from being young could really come in handy.....
#3 storeing weight? ok cant underestimate the ability to get heavy, OR light at any moment. same with strength. store some, you want a mean punch, tap the strength right when you start punching, and tap stored weight. you want to jump high? strength + store weight = fun of flying without the need to carry coins... st
Storing strength. somewhat overrated probobly. but then probobly useful when one is trying to fall asleep and rather wound up (provided you stored mental speed as well, should be an easy way to fall asleep)
#4 storing warmth... ok, ever been way to hot? no problem. too cold? no problem, always comfortable. easily one of the best abilities
#5 storeing health. refer to comments about when one is young and in school, and wants to call in sick.......... *cough cough* and same for work when you are older. then access the stored health whenever you need it. both storing and tapping are still quite useful
#6 storeing senses. um, I cant count the number of times I wished to get rid of my sense of smell or taste. for a little while... hard to beat this one. probobly useful sometime to tap it. but far more useful to store it imho.
#7 storeing mental speed. would be useful anytime I wanted to be a little more numb to listening to something I really wouldnt be listening to, and dont care about. again, for more opportunity to store then need to tap. so again no shortage of power
overall virutaly any ability would be at LEAST as useful to store as to tap. leaving an easy and probobly neverending supply of power on demand :D where as allomancy = weak once you run out of metals.
Loki
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Personally, I think Allomancy, if you can effectively supply all minerals, like atium, duralium, etc. Atium would work effectively against any Feruchemists, and you could use Chromium to destroy all of another Allomancer's metals if he started burning atium.
On that note, if a feruchemist could ingest Larasium, they would be invincible, and there is no known way of learning Feruchemy.
Of course, that is assuming you can't choose Hemalurgy, and learn everything
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In regards to Loki above, weight is also good for resisting an Allomantic Push, if you grab what they are pushing, as Sazed does to Marsh in Book 2 at the end.
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Allomancy.
The other may be just as powerful in the long run, or it may not, but Allomancy definitely seems like it would be more simple and more fun.
Show me the funny!
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Who cares...Hoid's shard takes it all...that is if Bella doesn't get a hand gun anytime soon... :D
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To the Allomancer's Atium argument, a Feruchemist could always tap a good deal of both mental and physical speed to compensate; knowing what will happen a half-second in the future won't matter if you can't keep up with it, even with pewter. So, for a one-time battle of equally competant opponants, a Feruchemist would probably win. (Pardon the arrogantly short explination; feel free to shoot it into the ground.)
But if one was to fight in a tournament, or in a day-in-day-out basis (i.e. mercenary or a more popular assassin), Allomancy would be the way to go for its 'easily-replenishable' attribute.
As a sidebar, would anyone be so kind as to point me to a link (or links) in this site that explains the roots of Chromium, Larasium, and the mysterious and elusive "Hoid"?
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Well if the person is a pewter savant i doubt a keeper could keep up with them even at 20x human speed
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now i really think we need to see a pewter savant. but i disagree. i don't think the effect of a pewter savant could beat a feruchemist's speed. a feruchemist could store up years worth of speed, not easily but you get the idea, a lot of power and squeeze it all out in a few seconds. you can't beat that.
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Feruchemy. I'm not a person that gets into fights, so that pretty much rules out Allomancy. And I like the idea of storing warmth, memories, age, mental speed, physical speed/strength. It's quite appealing.
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Speed is nothing if you have no control and a pewter savant has an hell lot more control because of the expeirence required just to become one...and yes i used an before an h and most people forget that in traditional (proper) english you do that...well my teacher took points off if you didn't so i assume as much :P
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While it's true a Pewter Savant could probably take on a Feruchemist tapping 120% speed, could they do so at 200%? 300%? Pewter alone cannot stop a determined Feruchemist with sufficient stores. However, Allomancers do not have to rely entirely on Pewter. One big advantage Allomancers have over Feruchemists is the ability to push and pull on metals.
Feruchemical stores are relatively large chunks of metal, and while Weight could be stored or tapped to throw off the Allomancer, it would make it incredibly difficult to attack while tapping. The Feruchemist would need to tap a lot of extra Speed and Strength just to get moving at a normal speed, much more if they're trying to outrun someone burning Pewter. On top of that, Steelpushes get stronger the closer you are to an object, and more weight means more force. If the Feruchemist taps Weight, a flared Steelpush on their Metalminds will be enough to remain out of range until the stores are depleted, and storing Weight opens the opportunity for the Allomancer to Push the Feruchemist out of range.
And Champion Kaz, you only use "an" before a word starting with "H" if the "H" in question is silent. A/An choices are made entirely on phonetic sounds, so any word that starts with a consonant phonetic is associated with "a", and any word with a vowel phonetic is associated with "an". Was the word you used something like "honorable" or "honest"?
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Should have asked for the explanation when i got the 5 points deducted for using it improperly...i am properly chastened
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And don't forget, I did mention mental speed (zincmind), which would allow the Feruchemist super-tapping physical speed to take better control of it, probably even better than a pewter-savant, with enough.
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i agree with you, aghaene. but unfortunately there is some debate as to whether mental speed works that way. i too believe it does and would allow a feruchemist great control of their body even at incredible speeds. how it would work otherwise i don't know, but there are some who believe it does
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When did co-ordination become how fast you can think? i know human calculators who trip on their own feet and stupid people with great reflexes and body control...so how are the 2 related again?
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By allowing the neural pathways that coordinate bodily control form several times faster than normal. All a Feruchemist would need would be to fight with super-tapping mental and physical speed two or three times beforehand and then the neural pathways will be built, allowing the Feruchemist the aforementioned control.
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Feruchemy. All those things I read and can't remember? Not anymore! ;D
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if you can specifically target different parts of your brain to speed up then it is possable but i still don't see it happening with out a training regimen and lots of expierence
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Training regimen, yes. But the whole purpose of using the zincmind beforehand would be so that the Feruchemist wouldn't need to have lots of experience.
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That's illogical think it through...no matter how fast you can process body memory is essential and if you are unused to the processing speed you are just as likely to be awestruck and shutdown
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If a Feruchemist's brain could not get used to the processing speed in any practical amount of time there would be no point in having a zincmind.
And body memory is obviously not that essential or the increased size/strength that Sazed tapped would have thrown him off when he was fighting the koloss hordes and Marsh.
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He does more than rationalize it it's the truth the core of human interaction IS manipulation.... soothers and rioters just have a leg up on everyone else.... not to mention a good soother and rioter must be able to empathize with people so they know which emotions to change... just like someone who wants to persuade you to do whatever they want.
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I think that emotional allomancers don't have any special abilities when it comes to empathy, which is why a good one is so hard to come by. Breeze says something to that effect in the first book when he's training Vin, I believe. They have to practice a lot. Just like all of the other mistings with their powers, detection/sensory allomancy excluded.
Mental speed seems to make people see things in slow motion, so it's basically a time-flow alteration as far as your mind is concerned. Your mind thinks that it's going the same speed, hence no mind overload. Physical speed is the external part of that, allowing you to move at the speed your mind is going. You can do them independently, but being really fast without a quick mind seems dangerous, and mental acuity alone will only help you so much. Since metals come in internal/external pairs, there's physical speed, physical strength, mental speed (perceptual time dilation), and mental strength (intelligence). Those four seem to be the most important Feruchemical skills for combat, with weight manipulation being a possible addition to the list.
I could be way off.
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for the most part, i don't think ur off sortitus. the only problem i have with what u said is that if u look at the table in the backs of the books, the internal/external pairing law only seems to hold true for allomancy. however i do think that is what zinc essentially does. it "speeds up your thoughts" so depending on how much u tap at a time, u could possibly reach supercomputer levels of information processing. if u were to tap the same levels of physical speed u would really be moving and thinking at the ratio as normal. i believe that this would give u the same coordination as u normally would have.
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Has Brandon specified a pattern for Feruchemical powers? I was just saying that if metals follow the same general pattern that was how it would likely be. Then again, Brandon's magic is always just a little off how I think it should work.... :P
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i understand and agree with what u were saying. just though i'd point out that he hasn't really specified a pattern for the assignment of feruchemical or hemalurgic powers. personally i'm waiting for the hopefully eventual feruchemy and hemalurgy posters. though that means the allomancy one would actually have to be released first *cough cough*
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Sounds accurate to me, Sortitus. It's mostly the point I was trying to get across.
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Feruchemy
The best part of storing memory would be the ability to read your favorite books over and over again like it’s the first time. Elmandr and Reaves could watch Scrubs again.
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Feruchemy
The best part of storing memory would be the ability to read your favorite books over and over again like it’s the first time. Elmandr and Reaves could watch Scrubs again.
That is ingenious!
One of the best parts of Brandon's magic systems in Mistborn is the fun and off-beat applications.
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Feruchemy (For kids)
1. A six year old could become and adult and never look back (If the mechanic behind the process effects the body's development and not just toll time takes on a body) for it would cost no energy and they would gain strength and speed that comes with a fully developed body.
2. If development is part of the Feruchemy age mechanic then a large burst of energy could passably take someone using Feruchemy past the point of infancy so they can be slipped under a door or threw a metal great. ( :oThats kind of disturbing)
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That's a tough one. Allomancy allows for a higher sustained level of awesome, but there's just something about Ferchemy . . .
I'd love to be able to store nearly as much as I want. For small periods, a well-prepared Feruchemist could overpower any Thug. I wouldn't be able to fly like a Mistborn, but drawing strength and storing weight would allow something very similar. And the copperminds are just . . . wow. The ability to store knowledge like that would be incredibly tempting. Yeah, I'd pick Feruchemy I think.
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And die against a duralimin (how do you spell aluminium's counter-point again?) powered coin push!
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That's why you store up enough speed to dodge anything. ;)
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Enough to go super-sonic?
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. . . yes?
Haha. Yeah, that would be hard. Probably would take a few months of speed used up in a few seconds to dodge one duralumin-enhanced volley.
A Mistborn really does have superiority in most any fight, though a prepared Feruchemist would probably be able to take most any Misting. The tradeoff is in the copperminds, more than anything. Great at fighting, with an amazing mental capacity? Or excellent at fighting.
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Personally, I'd go for Feruchemy. I just love the idea of being able to use your idle time to store up attributes. Watching TV, you don't need strength or speed, so you store them. Sitting on the train in the morning, you don't need to see, so you can store it for when you need super sight.
Besides, I'm short sighted, so anything that would let me go without contacts for a bit, even though my eyesight would be worse while I'm storing it, would totally be worth it!
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A Mistborn really does have superiority in most any fight, though a prepared Feruchemist would probably be able to take most any Misting.
Depends on how long the feruchemist has been storing up power and how much he's willing to spend on the one fight. Spending a year's worth of strength and speed in a few seconds, I'm pretty sure a feruchemist could rip off a duralumin/pewter burning mistborn's head before the mistborn could even react, despite the boost from a duralumin-fueled pewter flare, even if he did it right in the middle of the flare.
This, plus the ability to get his feruchemic power from an allomantic source, is the true secret of the Lord Ruler's power.
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His fighting power predominately comes from being one of the original mistborn. And a duralimin fueled pewter mistborn is going to be a, to fast, agile, and resistant to "rip off their head" (pewter boost sense of balance and is easier to adjust to it's than boosting speed in feruchemy) so no duralimin tips the balance so far in a mistborns favor that their is no longer a competition. I mean a duralimin fueled coin push is faster than a normal bullet, and a bullet is faster than sound.
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I think you're missing a crucial point here: while duralumin boosts power very high, it still hits a limit. Feruchemy has no limit other than the amount of power you have available and are willing to spend. Pewter = strength X. Pewter+duralumin = strength 50X. Feruchemy with enough power = strength 10000X, though that much power is hard to get.
In the beginning of Hero of Ages, when Vin and Elend are fighting an Inquisitor in the midst of a Koloss army, there is one instant where the Inquisitor moves ridiculously fast, to the point where Vin is absolutely certain that not even duralumin could explain it. This Inquisitor has an extra spike that we, the readers, know grants the feruchemical ability of speed (I don't remember which metal that is). Combine that degree of power with speed, strength, and mental speed all at once, and you have something not even a duralumin-fueled mistborn can match, for as long as the power holds out. A feruchemist tapping enough speed could, in fact, move his own body faster than a duralumin-pushed coin.
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His fighting power predominately comes from being one of the original mistborn. And a duralimin fueled pewter mistborn is going to be a, to fast, agile, and resistant to "rip off their head" (pewter boost sense of balance and is easier to adjust to it's than boosting speed in feruchemy) so no duralimin tips the balance so far in a mistborns favor that their is no longer a competition. I mean a duralimin fueled coin push is faster than a normal bullet, and a bullet is faster than sound.
If you had enough health stored would it really matter if you get hit with a coin
For story line I would pick Allomancy for myself I would pick Feruchemy
Durillaim does boost ability to a new level but it is still a level (ceiling on the Ability ) just the same. Anytime there is a ability without a defined ceiling like Feruchemy thats the ability I will chose every time from a gaming (RPG) perspective. However anything without a defined ceiling should not be available for PCs. (Sorry I slipped into gamer mode)
I love Allomancers because of their limitations not in spite of. Having to find interesting and creative ways to overcome obstacles with defined limitations makes them interesting and entertaining. If the Allomancers in the books had been all powerfully it would have made for a boring book. Allomancers not being all powerful is what makes them awesome. Convince me Allomancers can't be beet and I will lose interest in them in a heartbeat.
"Real gamers use Dice"
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I definitely think that a Feruchemist has the potential to be prepared enough to win a fight against nearly any Mistborn.
However, the sheer level of preparedness is ridiculous. It's mentioned that while Feruchemy operates on nearly a 1:1 ratio while dealing with small enhancements, once you start tripling or quadrupling your attribute, it does not return as much as you stored.
So while it is probably possible for a Feruchemist to store enough speed to dodge duralumin-enhanced coin pushes, it may well take years for him to store that much speed up. And then it's gone.
So while a superbly well-prepared Feruchemist might be able to take a Mistborn in a fight, they'd be left unable to repeat that feat for years or more.
I'd still pick Feruchemy for myself, or if I knew I'd have to be in one big fight, five years from now. But if I knew that I'd be getting in fights pretty often, Allomancy would probably be preferable.
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On another note the following quote could in affect lead to a defined ceiling equivalent but its very vague.
Quote from The Last Empire
“Yes, Master Marsh. However, Feruchemy gives decreasing returns—it takes more than the proportionate amount
of strength, for instance, to make yourself four times as strong as a regular man, as opposed to simply twice as strong".
At some point decreasing returns would be insurmountable and thus in affect create a ceiling for Feruchemy but what "more than the proportionate amount" equals I could only speculate.
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Yeah, that's exactly the quote I was referencing. I could have sworn it was in the second book, though. Ah well. Stupid memory. ::hits self in head::
That's almost scary how you looked that up. :p
Let's say someone stored a year of strength. I think if one were to draw on that power to double your strength, it would last for nearly a year. (Though that seems overpowered, so I could be wrong.)
However, if I were to quadruple my strength, it would last for significantly less than 6 months. And if I were to multiply my strength by 8, it would last very significantly less than 3 months.
Considering how easily Sazek uses up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel, I think the returns diminish very quickly. For however much he had stored up, he was able to expend nearly *all* in a few hours.
There may not be a theoretical ceiling to a Feruchemist's abilities (though it could be approaching a limit), but I think there's definitely a practical one. You can only store so much.
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Even without a ceiling Allomancy is stronger. I don't care how fast you can get (if you were to run over the sound barrier friction would kill you btw) b/c once you hit a certain speed with feruchemy you no longer have coordination (doesn't happen with pewter)... and you are moving so fast the fall it self would kill you. Also, how does storing health prevent a coin from going through your body? Last time i checked it heals you it doesn't make you invulnerable or thick-skinned? If someone hits you in the head game over period. And if you tap too much strength your muscles literally turn your skeletal structure too mush, not too mention your muscles already can handle more weight/ pressure than your tendons... so there are biological caps everywhere for a feruchemist they CAN'T compete in a fight with a mistborn.
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I was assuming strength increased the strength of your bones, as well. Otherwise, even the levels Sazed was using should have snapped his bones like twigs.
As far as friction goes, tapping health hard should be able to balance that out.
Regardless, when the Feruchemist he'll be done for a few months, or even years. The Allomancer can just chug some more metal and hop right back in.
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Yeah, that's exactly the quote I was referencing. I could have sworn it was in the second book, though. Ah well. Stupid memory. ::hits self in head::
That's almost scary how you looked that up. :p
Let's say someone stored a year of strength. I think if one were to draw on that power to double your strength, it would last for nearly a year. (Though that seems overpowered, so I could be wrong.)
However, if I were to quadruple my strength, it would last for significantly less than 6 months. And if I were to multiply my strength by 8, it would last very significantly less than 3 months.
Considering how easily Sazek uses up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel, I think the returns diminish very quickly. For however much he had stored up, he was able to expend nearly *all* in a few hours.
There may not be a theoretical ceiling to a Feruchemist's abilities (though it could be approaching a limit), but I think there's definitely a practical one. You can only store so much.
The problem is more than a prepositional amount could be a inconsequential amount such as an additional .001 per 100% increase or a ridiculous increase like x4 additional energy cost per additional level of use. I can't find a solid reference regarding the scale of the increase.
It is just to vague to throw out solid numbers without presenting them as best guess
"Brandon help us"
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I assume that if the difference was insignificant, then Sazed wouldn't have bothered bringing it up. If you asked him, "Hey, will you be here in an hour?" he would probably not contradict you if he thought that he'd actually show up a few seconds after an hour.
I'm also drawing conclusions based how quickly Sazed used up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel. If it was proportional (or even anywhere close to proportional), and he had a year of strength stored up, then even running at 256 times normal strength would give him nearly three days of power.
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Even without a ceiling Allomancy is stronger. I don't care how fast you can get (if you were to run over the sound barrier friction would kill you btw) b/c once you hit a certain speed with feruchemy you no longer have coordination (doesn't happen with pewter)...
A) Do you have a reference for that?
B) Even if that is true, I believe tapping an equivalent amount of mental speed would compensate quite well.
if you were to run over the sound barrier friction would kill you btw
By producing lots of heat - which Feruchemy can store, preventing it from actually hurting you. Additionally, it is not instant death so tapping health would allow you to heal it before dying.
and you are moving so fast the fall it self would kill you.
What fall?
Also, how does storing health prevent a coin from going through your body? Last time i checked it heals you it doesn't make you invulnerable or thick-skinned? If someone hits you in the head game over period.
Yes, it heals rather than making you invulnerable. The healing is so fast (with sufficient power), however, that it might as well be invulnerability against anything that doesn't kill you instantly, and pretty much nothing short of physically separating your head from your body or destroying the brain entirely is going to do that.
And if you tap too much strength your muscles literally turn your skeletal structure too mush, not too mention your muscles already can handle more weight/ pressure than your tendons...
Got a reference? If that were true, I'm fairly sure feruchemists would not be able to toss boulders around as Alendi observed, and Sazed would have snapped several bones in his fight with the Koloss. Also, ISTR tapping weight makes your bones stronger (I think Sazed mentioned this in mental commentary while fighting the treasonous Kandra), so they can compensate for that.
so there are biological caps everywhere for a feruchemist they CAN'T compete in a fight with a mistborn.
I am almost completely certain every biological cap is either handled by the very same power it supposedly limits or can be dealt with by another feruchemical power.
Also, I remember Brandon himself stating, either on his blog or in the Q&A thread, that a well stocked feruchemist will beat a mistborn in single combat. I don't have the time right now to dig up the quote, but I'm quite sure of it.
The limitation on feruchemy is not the maximum power use rate, but the difficulty of storing up power.
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I assume that if the difference was insignificant, then Sazed wouldn't have bothered bringing it up. If you asked him, "Hey, will you be here in an hour?" he would probably not contradict you if he thought that he'd actually show up a few seconds after an hour.
I'm also drawing conclusions based how quickly Sazed used up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel. If it was proportional (or even anywhere close to proportional), and he had a year of strength stored up, then even running at 256 times normal strength would give him nearly three days of power.
I was just crying for solid numbers, and I figured to my shame that wording my reply that way would result in some quotes I might have missed being thrown my way.
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It's not the heat that you worry about it's the air! Come on! Everything i said is a basic understanding of science that you should have to graduate highschool (and i'm from the state that is ranked 46th in public education, that however doesn't include higher education). Air is matter so when you move through it you displace it and the faster you go the more air you displace, this process builds friction. Air resistance (which is the friction caused by air displacement) actually limits how fast you can fall, don't believe me, go jump out of a plane. If you were to go supersonic it would be like running into a never ending wall and the pressure would kill you move or less instantely. And different parts of your body take years to heal, according to my Genetics textbook nerve cells gennerally take 5 years, (and some organs/ bones only refill with scar tissue while others don't heal) a head shot would kill you period. And anyone who works out with any fitness guru or a bunch of football players will tell you that people who lift more than their tendons can take end up tearing their tendons which has nothing to do with muscular strength.
In FE Vin explains on her first pewter run why she can run so fast without falling
And if you try to balance strength with weight it takes more strength to balance the increasing weight
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It's not the heat that you worry about it's the air! Come on! Everything i said is a basic understanding of science that you should have to graduate highschool (and i'm from the state that is ranked 46th in public education, that however doesn't include higher education). Air is matter so when you move through it you displace it and the faster you go the more air you displace, this process builds friction. Air resistance (which is the friction caused by air displacement) actually limits how fast you can fall, don't believe me, go jump out of a plane.
Do give me some credit, please. I've graduated from college, and I know what I'm talking about. Yes, air resistance slows you down, imposes a maximum gravity-powered falling speed, and is a form of friction. It does not, except possibly at speeds very close to the speed of sound, cause any problem feruchemy cannot overcome with sufficient power.
Air is matter so when you move through it you displace it and the faster you go the more air you displace, this process builds friction. Air resistance (which is the friction caused by air displacement) actually limits how fast you can fall, don't believe me, go jump out of a plane.
And friction is primarily a problem due to the heat it generates. The main concern in designing supersonic jet aircraft is not how to make it strong enough to survive the forces involved, but in how to dissipate the heat generated fast enough.
If you were to go supersonic it would be like running into a never ending wall and the pressure would kill you move or less instantely.
No, that's what happens at the speed of sound. If you go faster than sound, you leave the "wall" behind.
Regardless, a feruchemist would not have to move supersonic in order to beat a mistborn. All you need is enough speed to make aiming at you practically impossible, and to get to the mistborn before he can dodge.
And different parts of your body take years to heal, according to my Genetics textbook nerve cells gennerally take 5 years, (and some organs/ bones only refill with scar tissue while others don't heal) a head shot would kill you period.
If a headshot actually hits and gets through the skull to do major damage to the brain, then yes the feruchemist is dead. As for speed of healing other things, consider a) Sazed's encounter with Marsh and how he handled the rings Marsh embedded in his belly, and b) Marsh after Vin got through with him just before ascending. Following those examples, a year or two of stored health would be enough to heal almost anything not instantly fatal, I think.
And anyone who works out with any fitness guru or a bunch of football players will tell you that people who lift more than their tendons can take end up tearing their tendons which has nothing to do with muscular strength.
Ok. What makes you think tapping a pewtermind doesn't increase tendon strength too? Again, if this were as serious a problem as you seem to be advocating, I doubt the boulder-tossing feat described in Alendi's logbook or Sazed's fight against the Koloss would have been possible.
In FE Vin explains on her first pewter run why she can run so fast without falling
I'll grant you that tapping a pewtermind probably doesn't duplicate that effect. Tapping mental speed should work to compensate.
And if you try to balance strength with weight it takes more strength to balance the increasing weight
I rather doubt the increased weight would take all of the increased strength, and you'd only need it during those short moments when you're exerting your strength. When you're just moving around you don't need it, and when you're tearing something apart the increased weight is a lesser problem because you don't actually have to move your body very much.
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First let me just say that we are all assuming, me included, that the physics of Cosmere are the same as those of our own universe and if they were to differ even slightly a lot, if not everything, that has been said becomes mute. While I'm at it the people of Scadrial, and likely all the worlds Brandon writes, do not have the same biology as us either.
Ok, that being said there is a limit to the speed at which a Feruchemist can travel but, it isn't a limitation of the Feruchemist, it's actually a limitation of their metalminds. That limit, 299 792 457.99999999... meters per second, infinitively close to, but not actually reaching the speed of light. Why? Relativity, that's why. An object that has mass cannot travel at, or beyond, the speed of light and, while the Feruchemist could theoretically store all their mass in a metalmind in order to travel at these speeds they would have to have massless metalminds, which cannot exist, in order to do this.
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They don't have to go any faster than this
"I don't know," Marsh said, his voice coming out in a growl.
With a flash of power, Sazed released his ironmind and instead tapped steel,
increasing his speed again. He dropped the lamp, ducking to the side, moving more
quickly than Marsh could track
True he did burn up his reserves soon after this but the reserves in question were never meant for battle
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It never states that tapping strength gives you any kind of physical resistance. It does however say burning pewter does, and since it never mentions it, it shouldn't be a stretch to say it doesn't. Now in regards to moving a boulder a human can flip a car to save themselves or their child, it usually involves several fractures and torn tendons but it has been done.
Note I've met stupid lawyers at fire scenes whom I wonder how they graduated anything a degree is not impressive especially when you can get really pointless majors and know no more than algebra and take volcanoe and other pointless science credits (my father took wine making as a chem class). I was annoyed b/c i did mention head shot and the effects of adrenaline are well known coupled with the effect that you share one of my most annoying vices, bold assumptions.
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It never states that tapping strength gives you any kind of physical resistance. It does however say burning pewter does, and since it never mentions it, it shouldn't be a stretch to say it doesn't.
I don't think any of my arguments have required extra physical resistance from feruchemy with pewter.
Now in regards to moving a boulder a human can flip a car to save themselves or their child, it usually involves several fractures and torn tendons but it has been done.
And yet Alendi observed feruchemists doing equivalent feats of strength without any noteworthy injury, and I rather doubt a broken bone or torn tendon would have gone without note, and did it casually as if it were routine.
Note I've met stupid lawyers at fire scenes whom I wonder how they graduated anything a degree is not impressive especially when you can get really pointless majors and know no more than algebra and take volcanoe and other pointless science credits (my father took wine making as a chem class).
Ok, you have a point. My degree is in Computer Science from a fairly major accredited and respected college (Georgia Tech), though, and I did not select any of my science classes for being easy.
I was annoyed b/c i did mention head shot and the effects of adrenaline are well known
I acknowledged that a good head shot will take out a feruchemist, though I think I might have missed it the first time you mentioned it, but that only matters if the mistborn can land a headshot.
coupled with the effect that you share one of my most annoying vices, bold assumptions.
Assumptions about what, specifically? I don't think I've posted an argument about feruchemical capability that wasn't backed up by something from the books, with the possible exception of extrapolating a little far from the demonstrated instances of healing and the one word "warmth" description of brass's feruchemical power.
Word of God: Everyone always says that Allomancy is the better combat skill, but that's just because the resource it uses—metal—is far more plentiful than the resource Feruchemy uses. Put the two into a battle together with enough power to spare, and the Feruchemist will almost always win. (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/252/Mistborn-2-Chapter-fifty-eight)
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Woo, vindication. ;)
I definitely still think that Allomancy (at least, in Mistborn form) is a more powerful ability. If nothing else, the ability to perform like that day after day beats out anything a Feruchemist could hope to accomplish.
But in a single battle, where the Feruchemist is well-stocked and has no reason to save anything for later? There would be a beat-down.
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But in a single battle, where the Feruchemist is well-stocked and has no reason to save anything for later? There would be a beat-down.
Yep, and it would be the mistborn being beaten. The reason the Lord Ruler was so powerful - or rather, so much more powerful than the other original mistborn - was that he could pull off a feruchemist's potential but fuel it with metal, making it possible to use a feruchemist's one-shot power every day with a vastly reduced need to recharge.
Note, btw, that the annotation I quoted from is for a chapter from well after duralumin was discovered.
Oh yeah, another example: When the Lord Ruler faces Kelsier near the end of Final Empire, someone sticks a spear all the way through his midsection and he just ignores it. He proceeds to have a little chat with Kelsier, kill him, carry on as if the spear were of no consequence, and then belatedly remove it. A mistborn burning pewter and duralumin might be able to do something like that, but I'm pretty sure TLR left it in for longer than a duralumin flare lasts and he did not consume any metals to refresh a spent pewter supply. Plus, since pewter does increase physical resistance I'm not sure the spear would have gone through him in the first place if allomancy were responsible. I submit that this feat was almost certainly the result of feruchemy's health power, and that any feruchemist with a sufficient amount of health stored up would be able to duplicate it.
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1. I am sure most of us can picture a Mistborn taking down a Feruchemist (with a decent energy reserve) if we were put in the Mistborn's shoes.
2. I am sure most of us can picture a Feruchemist (with a decent energy reserve) taking down a Mistborn if we were put in the Feruchemist's shoes.
3. If this was a game I know plenty of players who would win 90% or more of the time against most players regardless of the shoes they happen to be wearing at any given time.
4. If Kelsier (Vin if you prefer) was a Feruchemist instead of an Allomancer I still don't think any Mistborn or Feruchemist would escape him if he chose them as his next victim.
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On a day to day basis, I'm not sure which one. But one thing I think Allomancy has going for it is the flying through the air. I'm pretty sure Feruchemy wouldn't be able to replicate it. I'd love to fly like that.
Though Feruchemy has the whole warmth thing, which would be great for the wintertime. I'd be about ten times more willing to try any snow sport if I had that.
Either way, I'd never have a reason to work out ever!
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You can fly using Feruchemy by reducing your weight to zero and flapping your arms. Assuming you've strapped on wings.
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You can fly using Feruchemy by reducing your weight to zero and flapping your arms. Assuming you've strapped on wings.
If thats true then you would not be limited to were you could fly or your altitude like you are with Allomancy, because your not dependent on having metal to pull and push on. Feruchemy would offer a free :D and untethered experience. Allomancy with an ample amount of metal to push and pull from would have a easy time with speed and maneuverability ;D but great altitudes >:( would still be hard to come by. Water crossings are probably out of the question for Allomancy unless the water does not reach depths of real consequence, then you might be able to pull off some sort of wacky Vin horse shoe maneuver.
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I don't think the belongings of a Feruchemist are affected by weight reduction so it's a good thing they can store warmth to use when they fly in the winter wearing only a loincloth :-* .
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Well can you flap your arms harder than wind....b/c it's not free you aren't going to generate enough force to fight 20mph winds. You can only go where the wind blows.
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@ Six More Weeks of Kaz: just tap strength and/or speed
@Seaoftrouble: a well aimed Duralumin push can get you pretty far
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Well can you flap your arms harder than wind....b/c it's not free you aren't going to generate enough force to fight 20mph winds. You can only go where the wind blows.
I was going to mention that wind would be a factor but figured why bother it's to obvious to bring up ;)
Gliders and hang gliders get around very well so with some practice and a good altitude you could probably do OK.
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@Seaoftrouble: a well aimed Duralumin push can get you pretty far
Make sure you bring some metal to throw in front of you for the landing :o and make sure you drink down some more steel before you try. Wait better Idea duralumin with pewter for the landing that would be sweet 8) and not require the consumption of steel before you land.
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Yeah, but my point is not in the travel, but in the fun, the thrill. When it comes to flying through the air, the ratio of work to fun severely tips in Allomancy's favor. Flapping arms for lift? Unless you're a bird, that sounds like no fun. (by they way, being a bird would be pretty awesome in that regard)