Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Spriggan on July 26, 2006, 03:56:57 PM
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I'm planning out upgrading features and adding new ones to the site and want to get peoples views on what doesn't work and what does, also what features we don't have they'd like to see. Just because you post it doesn't mean I'll add it, but it lets me see what people want.
Edit: To clear up any possible confusion, I will be doing the blog enhancements fist since it's the most popular feature, then once that's done I'll decided where to go next off of input from EUOL, you guys and what I think I can do.
Blog
First off I'm going to upgrade brandon's blog with the following features. Â Let me know if there's something here you want.
1) View next post and previous post (if applicable) -most requested by EUOL
2) Catagory Tag support
3) Wiki support for my wiki system
4) related posts and topics listed (based off of tags) Removed, not going to be done
5) Â search blog
6) Support for post-by-mail for blogger.com and live journal.
7) Display random post (because it's super easy to do).
8) New XML support (ie change how RSS is generated for the blog).
9) Technorati tag support
Wiki
I don't know if there's support out there for a wiki on Brandon's site, I did make my own but it's not something that was intended for random people to work on (ie it uses very little wikicode but HTML instead and doesn't have permissions set). Â But I could work something out if there's demand.
menu
add a store link.
Other features
Not sure, I know there are things that need to be redone (I'm looking at you book page!) but I don't know when I'll get to it since I want to get the blog done first.
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I really like being able to comment on blogs--conversations sometimes occur which are really interesting. Then again, he does have this section right here for discussion, but sometimes you just want to directly answer a post, you know?
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I've already brought up comments and EUOL doesn't want them, he's like me he believes for every 1 good post he'll get 50 stupid posts or spam.
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I suggest an upcoming events calendar.
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Ya, that's something I want to add but forgot to list it. Â That would be a "once I get everything else done" kind of thing. Â Actually I'd like to do it in flash or Ajax so we'll see.
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I'm actually using Google Calendar and bringing it in via RSS using a WordPress widget.
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It's a possibility but I don't like google calender, and it's not that useful unless you use it yourself, which very few people do. Â Unless it's something that's a high priority, or EUOL wants it, I tend to code all the features myself and not rely on other's code.
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I've already brought up comments and EUOL doesn't want them, he's like me he believes for every 1 good post he'll get 50 stupid posts or spam.
I've never had a problem with spam, myself, but I deal with a much smaller readership, I imagine.
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No I think it deals more with the possibility of dealing with the hassle of those posts. Â I think with a CAPTCHA system link, like on TWG, we could weed out most spam but at the end of the day we have to ask "is it worth it in the long run" and I don't think it's something that EUOL wants to deal with right now.
Maybe we can create a thread for commenting on Brandon's blogs here and just link to that thread on his blog.
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That's a good compromise, I think.
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I think that could work well, but might be a little unwieldy. Then again, it should be just unwieldy enough to lose the schlub posts. I, also, don't get any unwelcome comments, but that's to be expected since my readership is like...zero.
I also really like the idea of a wiki, but doesn't that leave you with a whole *other* world of potential trouble to patrol?
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That's a good compromise, I think.
Well if the forum and blog were on the same server/site I'd just use the forum for blog comments but make it so you could display those comments under each blog post. Â When/If TWG switches over to a PHP/DB driven forum I'll probably use RSS feed to display comments on his forum posts or something similar. Â The advantage to this is we get the TWG forum moderation we all know and love for the blog comments.
@RA: See ya, I agree with you. That why I'm asking because I'd give out limited Wiki editing access to those that deserve it, but then again doesn't that sort of defeat a "fan wiki". But then again, we'd probably not call it a fan wiki and just go with another feature for EUOL's site that's managed by TWGers that want access. I would have no problem giving out access to regular posters here that want to do something like this.
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Mm hm....wikis are fun business. If you leave it wide open, you get yourself into the business of patrolling the grounds and picking up the crap people leave all over the place. If you make it too limited, you kinda limit its usefulness and it ends up withering and dying on the vine. Ah, that elusive middle ground.
I'm in the middle of a wiki experiment at work. I created a wiki instance for our group with the stated purpose of capturing key learnings that don't otherwise get recorded anywhere else. I started it a week ago, and so far the only thing anyone has posted to it has been funny pictures of other people in the group. *sigh*
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The big fat mistborn image on the main page now takes you to the Mistborn page.
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Ok so I'm going to redo the menu system sitewide and want input on what to categories to make. Now since it's a horizontal menu we do have limited space, but I'm going to go with a tab or ribbon style interface (ie the submenu will be horizontal underneath the main menu) so things can be categorized that way.
Here's the current menu structure, anything after a >> is a submenu of the original.
HOME
NEWS
BOOKS>>Elantris, Mistborn, ect..
RANTS>>EUOLogies, Reviews
COMMUNITY
FREEBIES
CONTACT
ABOUT
This is my suggested new structure, feel free to comment on it or add your own:
HOME
BLOG>> Search Blog
EVENTS>>Calender
BOOKS>>Book name, like before
ABOUT>>Contact
COMMUNITY>>Links to other sites, TWG forum (Note: I don't like the name community that much).
SHOP (link to café press store)
This takes out the RANTS and FREEBIES sections but I don't think we need them, maybe we can add an other section for everything else but I'm trying to take out things that having really been used in a long time. It renames NEWS into events and that section will eventually get an overhaul and adds a shop link for the store that we have running but no content in yet.
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Here's the mock up of the new layout for the blog (doesn't include the menu change).
www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/Blog_resdesign1.png
So what do you think? Â I want to make better use of the space where the amazon links are so I might have to create my own custom amazon links that are much smaller. Besides that 's a fairly straight forward design and nothing too special about it since it more or less is the same content/layout that many blogs have now days.
I'm not liking the green too much now that I've spent some time looking at the design, it draws the eyes too much to the calender and search box and makes it hard to focus on the blog text itself.
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On categories, if you don't like "Community," consider "Forum."
For the EUOLogies and stuff like that that hasn't been used for a while, you might consider an "Archives" link rather than "Other"--that way people know it's old stuff.
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The new blog layout looks nice, too.
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Yeah, kudos for the new blog design . . . much more functional and navigationally friendly.
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Wow, I'm using an Apple monitor at work and the thing doesn't display any of the maroon or green in that new blog layout.
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Humm...For the amazon links I'm thinking of using a beta link type that amazon has, basically when you leave your mouse over an image or link a popup window appears with all the product info. That way we could just have the small book image and a title and it will look better.
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Wow, I'm using an Apple monitor at work and the thing doesn't display any of the maroon or green in that new blog layout.
What's it supposed to look like?
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Nothing fancy but the calender and searchbox are maroon with a green border.
By upping the contrast and brightness to the max I was able to see them at about half the intensity that I had designed.
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Oh.
Hm, the calendar is black on my home mac as well.
I ran it through w3's validator... The html has several <br\> and <br \ > and <br\ > tags that should be <br /> in it. There are also some img tags terminated with \ instead of / . There are also some frameborder="no" that should be frameborder="0" (I guess, since that's what's used in other places on the same page) and the validator doesn't understand "allowtransparency" or "background-color" on the iframe. It also says there's a </center> tag with no <center> before it, and some <br>s that are unclosed.
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thank you ookla ::). Sorry but I don't need validation lectures, especially considering this is like the 4th time you've brought this up.
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You're...welcome?
No lecture, I just reported what I found. Just looking to see if there's some reason why it's not displaying as you intended. *shrug*
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Sorry, thought you were complaining again that I didn't have alt tags on my images like you have before.
No, none of those errors actually affect the rendering, browsers automatically fix things like that. Â Also the new design I showed was an image not an html page so the problem is, as is the case with Apple monitors, is that they don't have a very good brightness or color resolution especially their older monitors. Â Heck even their top of the line cinima displays haven't even matched Dell's flat screen yet in terms of specs.
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/08/apples-20-23-inch-cinema-displays-get-bumps-price-cuts/
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Sprig,
That's very odd, since TigerMoux always claims that one of the big focuses of the Mac screens is their ability to display colors more realistically in pictures and the like than PC's can. (Or used to, back when everybody used Macs for photo editing.)
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They use to in the 90s and early 2000 but now that LCDs are cheap they've really been hit hard. Â Dell and Toshiba really have some good stuff out there. Â In fact I'm the only designer at my company that uses an apple monitor, they've got sony's and toshibas.
Cnet had a great comparison article showing what each brand did better then the others but Cnet's site is so unmanageable it's impossible to find anything there.
Ars just posted about apples recent moniters too, http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2006/8/8/4918
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Anywho enough about monitors, I'm adding Technorati tag support to the blog and was wondering if there were any other like features I'm missing for it? I don't completely follow all the blogging stuff so I assume RSS 2.0 (which I'm moving to actual XML instead of a php script that generates it) but I don't know if I need an atom script, heck I don't even know anyone that uses atom.
So let me just ask that? Anyone use Atom instead of RSS and want that?
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What web browser was it that you were viewing the mockup png in on the apple monitor? I suspect it may actually be the png gamma bug rather than the monitor. (The old version of Safari displays pngs with a gAMA chunk darker than the old version of Explorer on the same machine.) Of course the monitor could also just be poorly calibrated. I doubt that it's the hardware specs of the monitor itself that are a limiting factor. 400:1 isn't as good as 800:1, but it should be plenty good enough for most uses.
My PC monitor here at work sucks so much that in-post links here in the forum look the same color as the rest of the text. Not surprisingly, the calendar on that mockup png looks black on it.
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I've checked in IE 7, firefox and windows picture preview, while I have a mac monitor I use a window's box. I snagged the monitor because the only PC one they had was a crappy 15 inch CRT.
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I know if you use a mac monitor with a mac, it has a decently calibrated monitor profile. If it's on a PC you might have to calibrate it manually using Adobe Gamma or something like that.
Though I found this quote on about.com..."While the Apple 23" Cinema Display is certainly a high end product with an MSRP of $1299, it does not have many features. Most obviously lacking from the features list is the lack of adjustment options built into the display. Mac users can fully adjust the display from inside of the Mac OS environment. However, Windows based PC users can only adjust the brightness of the display. This seems almost a cruel joke Apple is playing on Windows based PC users. The Apple 23" Cinema Display is the only display in any price range I have used that offers no real adjustability.
Apple expects their Cinema Displays to be perfect right out of the box. Granted the display is pretty close to perfect without needing adjustments built in. However, if a user wants to be able to adjust the display to their viewing environment and does not work on a Mac, you are completely out of luck."
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While the Apple 23" Cinema Display is certainly a high end product with an MSRP of $1299, it does not have many features. Most obviously lacking from the features list is the lack of adjustment options built into the display. Mac users can fully adjust the display from inside of the Mac OS environment. However, Windows based PC users can only adjust the brightness of the display. This seems almost a cruel joke Apple is playing on Windows based PC users. The Apple 23" Cinema Display is the only display in any price range I have used that offers no real adjustability.
I have the Apple 23" Cinema Display as my monitor for my Windows computer, and the display was pretty much perfect out of the box. The lack of adjustability doesn't seem like a problem, especially since I can adjust the contrast and gamma through my video card's settings if necessary.
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The beta of the new blog is live!
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog_new.php
I'm not done with the books section as you can tell by my [books] template tag is still there nor is the search working.
The layout is a work in progress too, there are things that will be changing over the next few days.
I want to have this done by Thursday, preferably Wednesday night, so if you've got comments on use and look let me know.
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The search feature is working, let me know if you think I should format it differently (ie adding some of the blog text into the search result, which I'll probably do). Also I need to add a message if the item isn't found, but I don't have time since I have to get ready for Bucca.
This is a boolean search feature that's more complex then the one TWG uses at the moment it's supposed to order everything by relevance but I don't know how the database determines these things. Â Right now it just lists things by when they were posted so I assume it's using posted date as part of the relevance.
here's a list of the boolean options
None By default (when neither + nor - is specified) the word is optional, but the rows that contain it are rated higher. This mimics the behavior of MATCH() ... AGAINST() without the IN BOOLEAN MODE modifier.
+ A leading plus sign indicates that this word must be present in every row returned.
- A leading minus sign indicates that this word must not be present in any row returned.
> < These two operators are used to change a word's contribution to the relevance value that is assigned to a row. The > operator increases the contribution and the < operator decreases it. See the example below.
( ) Parentheses are used to group words into subexpressions. Parenthesized groups can be nested.
~ A leading tilde acts as a negation operator, causing the word's contribution to the row relevance to be negative. It's useful for marking noise words. A row that contains such a word is rated lower than others, but is not excluded altogether, as it would be with the - operator.
" A phrase that is enclosed within double quote ('"') characters matches only rows that contain the phrase literally, as it was typed. The full-text engine splits the phrase into words, performs a search in the FULLTEXT index for the words. Before MySQL 5.0.3, the engine then performs a substring search for the phrase in the records that are found, so the match must include non-word characters in the phrase. As of MySQL 5.0.3, non-word characters need not be matched exactly: Phrase searching requires only that matches contain exactly the same words as the phrase and in the same order. For example, "test phrase" matches "test, phrase" as of MySQL 5.0.3, but not before.
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Looks good to me, except the last line on the most recent post isn't showing up on my screen, and the formatting for the "previous" link also isn't working on the most recent post—that could be part of what's in progress though.
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Not sure what's causing that, but I haven't really checked yet, I think it has to do with some HTML in the actual post itself.
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Sprig,
I REALLY like the look of the new blog, as well as the new functionality. Bravo!
I was thinking that the left side feels a little open. Could we, perhaps, stick book images there with links to their book pages? That would rock!
And, I'm going to do an introduction to MISTBORN on its book page soon. Sorry that one's still blank.
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Ya I want to make the left hand side show books that link to both the amazon page and the book page.
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Ok, the books are up (same link http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog_new.php) so I'll probably need to format this still a bit.
Now all I need to do is add, RSS and we're feature complete then just need to do the backend. Whoo! Then it's just making any final formating changes and fixes.
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Let me say again, Sprig, that I really, really like the changes. Well done, my good chap!
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cool.
Well I should have the ability to manage the new features of your blog up soon. Â Right now you can edit/delete blog categories and list all posts that don't have categories but you can't actually assign categories to a post yet. So you might as well go and start making categories and see if there's any bugs, I've allready got three up there.
The link chain is Manage Blog via HTML>>>Manage Blog Categories. Made it really easy to find.
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Well the categories are done (yea!).
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OK, the new blog has replaced the old one, there were no errors that I've been able to find but that doesn't mean there aren't so let me know if you find anything.
The old blog is still active, it's been renamed to http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog_old.php if you'd rather still use it.
Thanks for the input everyone. Once I get the new RSS working I'll start working on the new menu and bring it up here for suggestions.
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Is it time for the Current Books chart to have a couple more slots? Mistborn 2 and 3 aren't even on there.
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Brandon, my comments about the front page changes echo Tage's & stacer's. There seems to be a lot of clutter.
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Cool, thanks. I was just having fun playing with buttons and Photoshop. My question is this, then: All of those little icons used to simply be links. Were they better as links (thinking of yourself as a first-time visitor to the website) or are they better as some kind of graphic?
Would you (anyone who sees this) prefer the menu system, or a more button driven thing like this? Would it be nice if I made some kind of inclusive graphic with the five buttons, then replaced the picture of Mistborn on the right side (moving it down) with them?
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Gha! #(#% %$@#$ $%$!
How hard was it to ask me about this before doing it?
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We were just discussing our own website and it came up that graphic buttons are really helpful for side links, especially when there aren't that many, because if they're designed in a way that gives you an idea of the content, especially, they help in making the site easily visually comprehensible.
However, if you have a lot of them, it just becomes big clutter as opposed to little clutter.
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Ok, well...I'm not going to go into text vs graphical links since there is a degree of taste and opinion into the discussion (and no one here will ever convince me more graphics=good when it comes to web-design.
In-fact I'm ending this discussion for the time being since EUOL, 42 and I have decided to revamp some of the page structures, there's no reason to discuss something that--hopefully--won't be there much longer. Once we have a design we all like we'll post it here for feedback.
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Gha! #(#% %$@#$ $%$!
How hard was it to ask me about this before doing it? Â
I feel for you.
[EDIT: Yes, I know. But this time I was not being sarcastic.]
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Sometimes Ookla it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
Anyway, next week I'm hoping to have a working test version of the new menu for comments. 42 and I have discussed three different ways to make the menu's work and we're going to post them here for comments before doing any main site coding.
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I'm new to the forums so I don't know what the old site was like... but I would like to see more about Mistborn. But I might be biased cuz that's the book I read :P
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Lost_Kyte,
Welcome to the forums! Thanks for stopping by.
I realize the Mistborn page is a little blank right now. I went and, at least, added an introduction there explaining things. I should probably put up some more Mistborn information. Maybe we'll do some deleted scenes over the next few months.
The problem is, I can't give away TOO much worldbuidling, since it would reveal things about the next two books. I can, however, put up some Allomantic charts and the like.
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Hey! Thanks for the welcome! :) Seems like a great forum community you have here.
Good point about the spoilers... the charts sound spiffy though.
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So what's the ETA for BrandonSanderson.com V2.0?
(Or is this finally going to be 1.0??)
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lol. I don't know. 42 has a cool concept image in the works, and I'm excited to see what happens with it. Shouldn't be TOO long, I'd think.
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I'd say middle to end of October for the final version, we'll probably start testing in a week or so various menu options then I have to configure the Backend for templates and make the changes to the book pages. So, a month and a half from start to end isn't a bad timeframe for something being done part time.
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Hey, EUOL...
I happened to see that banner you posted in your blog, and I kept thinking that something looked "off" about the cropped image from the Elantris cover. Sure enough, I realized the image is reversed. Just curious if that was on purpose or what. Anyhoo, the banner's looking cool. Will it replace the "sand" at the top of BS.com?
(http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog.php?date=1158908400)
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No, that's a forum signature banner.
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*nods* Good, 'cuz I like it as it is.
So the other banner might show up here on his TWG forum then?
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No, because if he does we'll relentlessly make fun of him and harass him about it. There's a reason no on has banner sigs here, we all hate them.
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I, actually, don't hate them. I think they make for great marketing, and it's more fun to read forums with more images.
However, they ARE abused sometimes on forums, and we decided that we'd rather not have to deal with moderating that.
I use that on other forums I visit, Shrain.
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I find it *less* fun to read forums with more images.
Images in signatures almost universally distract from content in the posts.
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Ohh. I wasn't thinking of them being used in -that- way. No wonder Sprigg is so violently opposed to them. hehe. I just wondered if it would supplant or supplement the TWG banner solely for Brandon's corner....
Though it would be odd not to have the TWG banner. Anyhow, I hadn't pondered it being used on other forums as a sig. (shrug) Guess that shows how few forums I visit. I'm too "intro-forumed" I suppose... Aren't you glad I manage to be so behaved on this one? ;D
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Anyway, next week I'm hoping to have a working test version of the new menu for comments.
I may or may not get a working version of this up this weekend (I've got 3 sites I'm working on this weekend plus some homework) so I'm going to post a teaser image for everyone since I'm already 2 weeks late.
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/BWSsite2b1.jpg
42 did a great job coming up with a visual display of EUOL's crazy mind.
It's missing the side bar that the current site has which a simplified version will be included in the new design, and there won't be any unlabeled stones in the final version.
 Just want to tell everyone that this redesign is something that is going to sped a while on, I do want to get it done this year, but we're going slowly as to make sure we don't have as many glitches and problems we had with the current site (and still do in some cases).  So once I get a working Beta site I'll post it here for people to follow up on.
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I gotta say, I find sites designed like what that image looks like to be basically unusable for me.
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I told sprig, but not Brandon, but I have to agree with Ookla. That design invites me to go somewhere else.
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What is it you don't like? Remember, the side bar on the left will still be there. So, it's basically the same site we have now, only with a graphical interface on the main page instead of the big long line of links in that main column of text.
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So...the point is to have big links in the middle of the front page just for the people who somehow can't find the links in the column on the left? It seems like excessive redundancy to me.
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I like it. I prefer a visual interface to lots of little links, and it would be just the front page.
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I think as an image it's great -- very artistic, and ties nicely to the visual style of Mistborn. The current website has an okay design but too many elements that seem disjointed (footsteps in the desert plus science fiction font?) or unclear (I don't know what the thing in the upper left is). So I think it's good to have a unified visual style, that's more obviously linked to your publications.
The general trade-off with this sort of splash image is that it's visually impressive for new users -- it does a good job "branding" you -- but obviously offers little for repeat visitors who know what content is available and just want to get to it. So part of the consideration should be the current and expected traffic patterns of the site, who the audience is and who you want it to be.
Some other considerations:
- How valuable are you finding the long column of text on the home page? If it's a pain to maintain and keep fresh, then this design that eliminates it makes sense. If you're finding it useful for announcing things like signing events and e-mail downtime, you may want to rework things to keep that space.
- Will your next released book be a Mistborn book? If not, there's a bit of the "built in obsolescence" factor to basing your site design solely on it to keep in mind.
- Will some variant of the top menu of the current site also be present, as well as the (simplified) left-hand navigation? I would hope so, as I think it's generally advisable to have consistent site navigation rather than forcing people to learn two different navigation methods, one for the home page and one for the rest of the site. The difficulty with the posted image is that none but your most frequent visitors will remember where each link is; it's difficult to scan something like that quickly and easy to overlook choices.
- A minor matter of personal taste: I don't like the way the "B" and "S" are intertwined...it's just a little hard to read. It makes the "B" look like an "R," and could also make people ignore the "S" and think your last name is "Anderson."
But as I said, I think in terms of visual style and execution it's very nice!
MattD
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Honestly? I'd infiinitely more prefer *content* on the front page. I hate comic sites where I have to go to one page and then click a link to see the comic. I nearly wrote a long, ranting letter to Gabe and Tycho for their recent re-code that eliminated the page that had the most recent comic on it. I even briefly considered not reading PA anymore. *that's* how frustrating it is to have to go to a page and then get past an "intro" to get to anything real.
I honestly see no need for two sets of links. And an image like that honestly doesn't look to me like it helps find anything at all.
Yeah, it looks all purty, but it's functionless. you are *not* a graphic designer, Brandon. People don't go to your page to see pretty things. They go to learn more about you and see your writing. You should deliver that right away.
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E, you have a valid point. However, it doesn't resolve the problem that originally caused the redesign. BS.com is rapidly developing content, more than what can comfortably fit on the front page. Few readers are interested in everything that Brandon is doing on the site. Most are only interested in a few things. So we need a way for visitors to filter what they choose to see.
Having two sets of links is redundant, but more effective in helping a diverse population use the site. Apparently, some visitors have had problems with the text links and menu system currently on the site.
Also, maintaining relevant text on the front page has proven to be a hassle.
Also a consideration. For selling books, new visitors matter more than repeat visitors since repeat visitors have probably already bought his books.
There is still some organization of the page that has to happen. A lot of the stone will be clear away, and we need to organize the stones some more.
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How many people go to an author's web site before they've read a book?
Front page content maintenance shouldn't be a hassle -- literally thousands of web sites do it every day. TWG does it pretty darn well, though I'd like more substantive blurbs, I'm not prepared to copy/paste whole paragraphs myself. Â Automaticly rolling content should help.
I don't know why doubling up ont he links would help with the menu, especially when those links are scattered. What's the thought behind that? It's not like funky pictures help me understand a link better than a name does, especially when that name is in an organized and recognizable presentation.
Is the problem that the links don't work? Or that they can't find content? In the first case, fix the code, in the second, adding a second link for it won't fix it when the menu's already prominent. TO fix the second case, you need to think about reorganizing or re-labeling the presentation, not adding a graphic that, honestly, doesn't add, but detracts from, clarity.
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We're not doubling up on the links.
You have a link to the blog on the graphic which takes you to the blog front page, or you can click on one of the more recent blog posts and they take you there. Â Completely different links code wise and for the most part functionality wise. Â Same thing with the Annotations, but besides those none of the other links even have content on the sidebar.
As for not liking a launch page, get over it, if you want to start at the blog then bookmark the damn blog, it's that easy. Â Same think with PA, their most recent comic is always the same link, you can just book mark that comic page and go there instead of the news. Â Or hell, use the RSS feeds that are provided. Â But what makes your argument really fall flat is that the graphical menu that we will be using will take you to the same places that the text menu we use now is. Â Both Mistborn links take you to the Mistborn Launch page, same with rants, news, ect. Â Heck you should be happy because we're finally linking to the default blog link that shows you the most recent post which is something you rail on PA about. Â I really find your arguments weak SE since you can easily not ever see the launch page if you don't want to, all it takes is spending 2 seconds bookmarking the appropriate page.
As for 42's comment about the front page being unmanageable, it's more new features are always being added and we have to contently find new space to link to those new features and it's getting to the point where the main page is unwieldy. This new design is simpler, there's less clutter and just as effective if not more so then the current text menu we have on the current site.
It's simply a better design overall, and that's what's most important.
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1) why are you asking for anyone's opinion if you're just going to cuss us out for giving it to you? You got three responses. Two were negative, one was half and half. This should tell you something. If you're going to completely ignore popular opinion, why are you asking for it in the first place?
2) I think it would still be *much* *much* simpler simply to have a link on the side bar for the main blog than to disrupt everything on the main page. Designers always think that one or two clicks dont' make a difference. From a user end, they do.
And, incidentally, PA recently recoded. The old link stopped working. I had to re-update my bookmark. I'm sure you'll write this off as whining, but that is *bad* consumer interaction. You don't change a feature to make a link unworkable without warning the users first. in a place where the people actually *go*. It irritates people.
It is not *my* job to accomodate myself to a website. You guys should really try to learn that. You are advertising something. You need to accomodate to *my* patterns. Saying "deal with it" is the worst possible response you could give to a concern, except maybe to throw in some curses. Oh wait, you did that too.
but then, you probably just think I want to complain. So, I'll stop trying to give any helpful input and ignore it now. You are obviously more interested in telling me I'm wrong than you are getting any kind of feedback.
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E,
I appreciate your comments, as they are very useful. I agree with you greatly on the re-codeing and link changing thing. That's just plain annoying, and it has stopped me from going back to websites.
However, what I'm MOST worried about with my website is exactly what you think won't happen. People coming who haven't read my books. I do a lot of promotion on-line for the website, and have hundreds of people clicking through a week who have never heard of me.
I also have a lot of older readers who aren't terribly web savvy. Many of these people have emailed me to complain that they can't find content on my website. The annotations are rarely read, not because there isn't an audience for them, but because people just can't find them.
I want the website to work for them. So, that's what I asked Sprig and 42 for (and, all of this design comes back to my decisions, not Sprig's--I think he'd rather the site be a little more like you're saying, actually.)
I wanted:
1) A website that displayed graphically on the front page links to each of the books I'm working on, along with common things like the blog and what not.
2) A website that was easier to navigate, and which used a visual linking system, rather than a text-based one.
They're working under some pretty annoying constraints, and I really appreciate their work. However, the things you're saying are a concern. I wish we could make it work for everybody. However, the problem is, many people look at the main page right now and are overwhelmed. I want something they can look at, see Elantris and Mistborn displayed prominently, and just click there to be taken to cool content.
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How many people go to an author's web site before they've read a book?
With how Brandon has marketed himself with business cards and sample chapters--a lot.
I don't want to antogonize you more E, but after talking to about 10 other people (enough for statistical significance), your opinion seems to be atypical. Over half of the people I've spoken with really like the design. I've had another two that didn't love it, but didn't hate it either. You and Ookla don't seem to care for it at all. Sorry if you feel left out.
We are working under an assumption that this is a leisure site for most viewers, so theoretically they shouldn't be in a hurry. Some might be, but then they probably shouldn't be coming to the site if they are in that kind of a rush.
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Actually, I think that E and Ookla represent a segment that isn't atypical--but may not be quite as large as the other group we're shooting for.
E and Ookla are experienced web users who are accustomed, likely, to visiting text heavy sights like Slashdot and various forum message boards. They're already invested in me as a writer, and to them, more information is better. A long list of text links is, in their opinion--and I can't really argue--superior. It gets across more information in a more orderly way.
The problem is, that scares away a lot off other people who aren't quite as invested as they are. My goal and hope is that people like E and Ookla, being highly proficient at these sorts of things, will be able to find the information easily, even if the design doesn't speak to them in person. I suspect they'll link the blog, rather than the main page, anyway--since they know all of the important information will be displayed there.
That way, we cover as many bases as possible. Still, it is very good to hear what E has to say in this area.
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I still don't see how this is a solution to the problem
I go to the site, and I see what looks to me like a random scattering of "rocks" with links on them. So I have to read every single one to find what I'm looking for, and I may or may not miss one of the links. How does that help an inexperienced or new user?
Again, it looks real purty, but I don't see this correcting any issue that's been mentioned in this thread. So I question the results of 42's informal survey. Did you ask them "what do you think of this?" Or "How does this look?" Or "How usable do you think this would be to a non-tech-savvy user?" Because while I can answer #1 with "it's ok" and number 2 with "It's very attractive" I can't help but answer #3 with "not very."
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I still don't see how this is a solution to the problem
I go to the site, and I see what looks to me like a random scattering of "rocks" with links on them. So I have to read every single one to find what I'm looking for, and I may or may not miss one of the links.
Listen SE, I already know you're arguing for arguments sake (you told me this morning that was the case) so stop coming up with lame arguments. Like this one. Â You don't like the site because the links are graphical and text based not Text only so you'd have to spend the time reading them to find which link you want. Â What? You'd do that if it was text only. Â Seriously man, try harder if you want this debate to actually be a debate.
why are you asking for anyone's opinion if you're just going to cuss us out for giving it to you?
I never asked for feedback on the new site redesign only on the webcomic site. Â As far as I'm concerned the new BWS front page is non-negotiable in terms on design until I actually start to code it and people can actually use it instead of look at an image and overreact, which I honestly think people are. Â I hate it when someone criticize something before they even use it.
I'm sure you'll write this off as whining, but that is *bad* consumer interaction. You don't change a feature to make a link unworkable without warning the users first. in a place where the people actually *go*. It irritates people. Â
I agree, it's both whining and bad consumer interaction, I think it's something that's very minor so not worth complaining about if it happens to me but it's also bad design (and rather simple once you learn how) not do do a 304 forward in apache. Â You should just deal with it since most people don't even know how you do httpaccess forwarding and until both Apache and IIS make it easier for developers to do that it's something that will never get fixed on the web, plus you've also got that all the different webhosts handle it differently so a forward that would work on TWG wouldn't work on EUOL's site.
But it's mute since we're not changing any URL or query string on his site.
"How usable do you think this would be to a non-tech-savvy user?"
I can guarantee that it's usable, just by basic design it's easier to navigate then even something like TWG's menu system and front page. I've taken lots of webdeisgn and interaction design classes, for what EUOL wants--a simple, non-overwhelming front page-- it's either this or just a page with 5 links and nothing else.
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One thing we've discussed in looking at our own website is that text links can get lost in a page sometimes, especially for users that aren't as used to using the web. I think that giving the main elements a graphic interface will help simplify navigation, and that is a good thing for the average passerby.
I do agree that the design of BS.com right now is a bit busy. Usable, for the most part, but I like the cleaner design. Perhaps... would it be possible/even usable to have drop-down menus appear as the mouse hovers over a stone? That way, more savvy users could get the shortcut they're looking for, and less savvy users could just click on the stone and still get to their destination. I'm trying to picture it and I'm torn as to whether that would be too confusing (let alone whether it's even possible).
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SE, I hope you keep arguing, because if you stop then I'll have to start.
Now, I understand that different people's minds work differently, so a design that works well for one person won't necessarily work well for all. However, I think the new design is simply a bad idea from the bad old days of web design. It will alienate far more people than it attracts. This kind of design has always failed. Remember Microsoft Bob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob)?
And the "bookmark the pages you like" suggestion is ludicrous. A web page should be something you use, not something you have to take shortcuts around.
Here's a website on current good design: http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/current-style.cfm
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There were a lot of other reasons Bob failed.
And design it totally subjective so frankly I don't care what one person says is good design over another, I do care about usability though and am not willing to discuss that until it's actually usable.
You all can debate this all you want but for now I'm stepping out and ignoring this thread until I actually code the site.
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Whatever. You did ask for comments.
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I don't know anyone here so I'm sure there are currents in this thread I'm not aware of. I do spent a fair amount of time working with clients to figure out what they want out of their websites, though, so forgive me an additional $.02 of input (I think I'm now up to $.04).
If I'm reading the comments correctly, the main criticism people are making is not based on text links versus graphical links, rather it is the idea of structured links versus unstructured links. That is, it's generally easier for people to quickly scan and understand things when they're presented together in groups, rather than spread out and ungrouped.
As a quick example, it's easier to find "Warbreaker" here...
Books
- Mistborn
- Elantris
- Warbreaker
Community
- Blog
- Forum
- Signings
About Brandon
- Introduction
- Pictures
- Contact
...compared to here...
Mistborn Blog Pictures Something
Introduction Contact Forum
Something Something
Warbreaker Something Signings Elantris
It's also easier for new people to understand what content is what in the first example, and to see all that's available. It's easy to miss "Signings" in the second example, for instance. And if you have older readers who aren't familiar with the web, they might well think that "Blog," presented without context, is the next great Brandon Sanderson epic! ;)
That being said, I'm certainly not suggesting getting rid of the image. What I would suggest is that you consider not placing the link stones randomly against the background, but instead use the image to not just be "purty" but also to provide groupings and context. You have three main book titles and the image shows a triangle: you could put one title at each point, or around the central circle in the middle of the triangle. You could use the circle in the upper right to establish a secondary group, such as community-related links. There are a few other arcs, lines and shapes that could be used for grouping similar content areas. Words or icons identifying groups wouldn't hurt, but these can be tricky and the main thing is to use groups to provide an indication of relationships and context. The lack of those, I think you would find, is the chief problem with navigating the current website, and folks are right that the new design doesn't necessarily improve on this. I think it can, though.
I don't think I'm saying anything revolutionary -- earlier in the thread 42 says "we need to organize the stones some more." But hopefully this gives you some ideas for doing so, and perhaps makes that prospect more appealing for others here.
MattD
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You have a point that we do need to group things better. We have yet to figure out how we are going to do that. We also have yet to figure out exactly what is going on the front page. The picture shown is not ment to be functional, only representational of how the site will look. The stones are not fixed in place. They are mapped out on a cleverly disguised grid. We still need to cluster the stones into related groups, but we aren't sure what those groups are at the moment. We've only intitially addressed that issue. As we continue to work on the site we hope to resolve some of the major organization issues.
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see, sprig, you really don't want to hear anything
I did *not* make a ludicrous comment. I also defy you to point out where I said that *text* links were better than *Graphic* links. MY problem has always been one of organization. I said a menu on the left makes it easier to find things, where is a random scattering of links across the page doesn't help anything at all.
And sprig, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm trying to convince BRANDON -- because whether you asked for feedback or not, Brandon asked me and ookla a direct question. And, rather than try to write off our response, it makes more sense to take into account our responses.
I showed the graphic to my mother-in-law and asked to her choose which point she should click if she wanted to get author's comments about Mistborn. It took her half a minute. That's bad organization. If the point is to help unfamiliar users, this is not going to cut it.
If I were to try to design the link structures from the basis of making things to find, i'd be redundant, but not by copying the links that are in the menu into the center of the page, I'd be redundant thusly:
Books: (each of the links below would have within it links to blog entires, annotations, sample chapters, and whatever else related specifically to that book)
Elantris
Mistborn Final Empire
Mistborn Well of Ascension
Alcatraz
Warbreaker
Annotations: (link directly to the annotations, obviously)
Elantris
Mistborn Final Empire
Mistborn Well of Ascension
Alcatraz
Warbreaker
Blog (main blog page)
most recent entry
penultimate entry
previous entry #3 (as deep as you want to go)
Forum
Sample Chapters:
Elantris
Mistborn Final Empire
Mistborn Well of Ascension
Alcatraz
Warbreaker
Appearances: (signings, cons, et al)
Soonest appearance
First appearance after that
the next event
Though not necessarily in that order. The idea is to link to both a main section, most general about an area, but also to link to the specific type of thing. I honestly don't see how doubling a link helps anyone. My first assumption would be that the problem is that people don't know what a link means, so it needs to be described better, or else they want something like annotations, but they're not sure where to find that.
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But E, the picture is NOT how things are going to be organized in the final site. So trying to navigate the site based on a mock-up is futile. It wasn't designed to show organization or navigation, only the look and to give us a launching point.
Brandon wants a graphical web site like: http://www.jkrowling.com/en/
I yet to see why he can't have one.
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Gah. I absolutely hate that JKRowling site. I have no intention of ever visiting it again. It's way too clever for its own good and finding links was painful.
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I agree. Rowling's site is pretty horrible. It's okay for people who want to play a Harry Potter website game--because that's basically what it is--but not for casual seekers of information. The point of Rowling's website is that you have to dig around for information, and Harry Potter fans seem to love digging around for information. Does Brandon want people to have to dig around for information on his books? I thought the whole idea was to make his site's information easier to find, not harder.