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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Chimera on June 05, 2005, 09:49:37 PM

Title: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Chimera on June 05, 2005, 09:49:37 PM
Wow, this is the first time I've started a new topic. Look at me, all grown up and starting discussions...

*Chimera experiences a moment of excitement and apprehension as she is on the brink of TWG maturity*

Anyways, moment over and on to business. I was reading EUOL's annotations to Chapter Three on his website here (http://brandonsanderson.com/anno.php?book=Elantris&id=9&PHPSESSID=4d0366108f7591631b045bdac60e5669), and was surprised by this comment:

Quote
There is some division among readers regarding their favorite viewpoint character. One group chooses Raoden, but I think the majority go with Hrathen.


I was surprised because I disagree. I got caught up in Raoden and Sarene's stories, particularly in the chapters where they were meeting each other and their relationship was developing. (Hey, I'm a girl, what can you expect--I try to resist being a hopeless romantic, but I can't seem to help it ;D). Hrathen was my least favorite character. At least, I kept skipping Hrathen's chapters because I *couldn't wait* to see what happened next between Raoden and Sarene. After I did this three times, I realized that I was probably missing vital information, since every chapter is important to the plotting in EUOL's books. So I went back, and I was glad I did, or I would completely have missed the significance of the potion that Hrathen takes.

So I thought I'd ask the rest of you here on TWG. Which of the three main characters in Elantris is your favorite, and why?
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Jelly_Belly on June 05, 2005, 10:40:15 PM
I agree with a lot of what Chimera said. I was very tempted to skip Hrathen's chapters because I was excited to find out what was going to happen with Sarene and Raoden. I didn't because although they weren't as entertaining, I knew they were important. As for my favorite, I am not sure I had a "favorite," especially once I finished the book. I really liked both Raoden and Sarene. I guess I am a hopeless romantic too. If I had to choose, though, I guess I would choose Raoden.

I wanted to say also that I think it really helped the pacing of the book when towards the end the points of view were interspersed within the same chapter. It really helped build the tension, I thought.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: stacer on June 06, 2005, 01:50:40 AM
I agree with both of you, though I did identify most strongly with Sarene. I remember reading the part where she thought the dress might cut her off at the knees that she could have been me--not to mention we'd just talked on the boards earlier about women's dresses and I'd told EUOL the exact same thing. But that was when he was working on Mistborn, and he said Sarene's thing wasn't based on my comment, but rather on another friend, who's even taller than me (I'm 5'8", so not *extremely* tall, but enough--and I'm not as willowy as Sarene's description, but I've always *wanted* to be  ;)).

At any rate, I really connected with her as a character emotionally.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 06, 2005, 03:35:03 AM
Harathen was the best of the main three with Sarene being so freaking annoying and arrogent that I almost ripped out every chapter with her in it.  Of course I don't care about the romance aspect and I'm sure if that wasn't in it the three girls here wouldn't be fawning over those characters.

However the most intresting characters were many of the minor ones like Raoden's sidekick, Sarene's uncle and a few of the other nobles.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Chimera on June 06, 2005, 03:42:27 AM
Thanks for replying Spriggan. I suspected we'd get a different opinion from a male, but they weren't any takers yet. I think that being of a certain gender makes you gravitate toward that viewpoint character (which makes sense, of course). But not always so. I'm sure there are plenty of girls who wouldn't pick Sarene as their favorite. I, however, liked her viewpoint very much.

There were some interesting minor characters. I think my favorite was Shuden. He was always composed and thoughtful, but then he had his super ninja dance that just took people down.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 06, 2005, 09:12:13 AM
Yeah, I would have to say Roial, followed by Galloden were my favorite characters.

I think if he had wanted to focus on romance as a major conflict in the plot, he could have had Sarene actually fall in love with either Shuden or Roial, and THEN they discover that Raoden is still alive. Wait, wipe your mind of that idea. I'm goign to use it...
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 06, 2005, 09:39:16 AM
The reason I like the people I mentioned previously is that the seam more like real people, they're not perfect and make mistakes while Sarene is too perfect and most of the plot around her feels unnatural and forced.  As for the Romance it's just a trivial part of the overall story that is just there to get everyone into the city but after the first few chapters has nothing of importance to add to the book overall so I don't care much about it.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Skar on June 06, 2005, 11:39:43 AM
I was mildly interested in the romance between Raoden and Sarene.  But my favorite characters by far were Hrathen and Kiin, followed closely by Lukel.

Having not commented elsewhere, I'll say I really enjoyed the book overall and am really looking forward to the violence fest to follow when all those magic systems collide in a fate of the world battle between the forces of good (led by a not-really-dead Hrathen caught up in an uneasy partnership with Raoden) and the forces of evil led by Wyrn.

Yeah!
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 06, 2005, 11:41:44 AM
Suck up
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 06, 2005, 12:17:13 PM
He's quite dead.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Fellfrosch on June 06, 2005, 12:41:09 PM
I find the concept of TWG maturity quite amusing.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Chimera on June 06, 2005, 12:44:22 PM
Then I have accomplished one of my goals in life--to amuse Fellfrosch.  ;D
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Tage on June 06, 2005, 12:46:48 PM
I'm a Raoden guy, myself. Boring, I know, but I really found his story more interesting.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: CinderEllie on June 06, 2005, 01:43:49 PM
Well, I'm happy to be the dissenting female who liked Hrathen and Raoden more than Sarene. Sure, I got into the romance between the undead prince and the sassy Sarene.
But I really liked Hrathen's character because he sincerely believed in what he was doing. Plus, he eventually fell in love with his "enemy"! Gotta love that irony. Besides, I felt like he was more conflicted than Raoden, so that made him more interesting to me. Given this, I cheered at the irony in the Epilogue where Sarene posthumously dubs Hrathen the city's savior. *Sigh* I guess I have too much sympathy for victims of unrequited love.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: EUOL on June 06, 2005, 06:38:23 PM
I'm glad that the women liked Sarene and her plot so much.  As I've mentioned in my annotations, I think she's my favorite character.  (Though, of course, I like all three quite a bit.)

As I've said before, the big problem with a book with such differing viewpoints is alienating part of your audience.  If someone comes to like a certain viewpoint too much, they will naturally come to resent the other viewpoints because they're taking up space that could have been devoted to the favorite character.  That is why, I think, Sprig and Chimera had such strong reactions AGAINST some of the characters.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Skar on June 06, 2005, 08:03:50 PM
Quote
He's quite dead.


Yeah, sure he is.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 03:23:02 AM
Quote
 That is why, I think, Sprig and Chimera had such strong reactions AGAINST some of the characters.


No I don't like her becasue of things in my second post, ie unrealistic, forced, annoying.  If she was better portrayed then I wouldn't have minded reading her viewpoint.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Chimera on June 07, 2005, 03:45:49 AM
Quote


No I don't like her becasue of things in my second post, ie unrealistic, forced, annoying.  If she was better portrayed then I wouldn't have minded reading her viewpoint.

But that seems to be a matter of opinion. Most of the girls are saying that they identified with Sarene--I know I did because I saw some of myself in her. I was actually very impressed with EUOL for being able to portray (in my opinion) such a realistic female character. And, since the females seem to feel this way, it would seem that EUOL succeeded and passed the most difficult and critical group (i.e. actual females). You are certainly allowed, though, Spriggan, to dislike certain characteristics of Sarene's personality. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is an unrealistic portrayal. Since her character reached the targeted female audience, it seems Sarene was realistic.

Now, there will certainly be some female somewhere who feels like you do--that Sarene was annoying, forced, and just not realistic. But I think if a majority of girls buy it, EUOL must have done a pretty good job, generally speaking. However, you can easily say that this is still just my opinion.

The thing that is interesting in discussing why we like literature is that so often I find that nobody is really wrong--everyone just brings different background to the text; individual background that affects how a person responds to the book/characters. Which is why people seem to have different "favorite" books and characters--because people are different.

But I like hearing everyone's opinion. I hope more people post!  ;D
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 05:07:46 AM
*sigh* I wish people would actualy READ posts instead of assumeing that what someone types is actualy what the reader thinks it means.

Quote
Sarene is too perfect and most of the plot around her feels unnatural and forced.

The unrealstic part, as I explain in the post my previous one was refering to, was the plot around Sarene and the politics around her were very forced and unrealistic.  I never said her personality was unrealsitic just annoying.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: EUOL on June 07, 2005, 05:14:52 AM
Quote
The reason I like the people I mentioned previously is that the seam more like real people, they're not perfect and make mistakes while Sarene is too perfect and most of the plot around her feels unnatural and forced.


That sentence, Sprig, says that you found her unrealistic.  You thought she was too perfect, which made her unrealistic, while the others had flaws, which made them seem like real people.  That is what you said.  You can change that now, but the sentence stands for itself.  To me, it means exactly what Chimera thought.

I too found your post interesting, for I generally consider Sarene to be more flawed than Raoden.  Her personality flaws--a bit of arrogance, a bit of busy-bodyness--are what you claimed in your first post as things you didn't like about her.  How, then, is she perfect?
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 07:07:36 AM
Again I've never said her personality was perfect, and as you've stated, I don't like it. You have to remember here we're talking about a character in a book not a real person so when I say Sarane is too perfect that's in reference to the character in whole so that includes the character's personality and how he/she fits into the story.  The character itself is too perfect because you ,the author, made everything she does work flawlessly or near flawlessly especially the political aspects which were very unrealistic and forced.  The whole "scheming" part of her story didn't fit well in with the other parts of the book because of this and every time she's suggest something new and all these nobles/politicians rolling over to her whims were painful to read because that's not what would have happened if the people were real especially since none of them knew here and all the sudden they're letting her run their little cabal with plans that don't seam very thought out.  She's also perfect because dispute her personality that seams to annoy many people you have just about everyone, besides Sarane herself, in the story ignoring the fact she's unlikeable and overbearing.  If she is, as you've portrayed and have told us via the character herself, such a frustrating person how come all these paranoid and prideful nobles think the opposite and make her their leader so quickly?

You conveniently use her to solve almost every problem in the book with little effort or mistakes.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Eagle Prince on June 07, 2005, 07:16:18 AM
Lol, don't take it easy on him just cause he is your brother.

Yeah, my favorite character was Rao and least favorite was Sarene.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 08:46:45 AM
Well that wasn't even my harshest (well at least in my mind) criticism which I told EUOL about a few weeks ago which he subsequently forgot about about a week latter when he asked me if I've read the book yet.  And that is Hrathen using the Seon in secret.  That one incident shows that Hrathen and all the top leaders in his church know that their religion is fake and just a means to an end (ie controlling people).  When you read that chapter, all be it short, you know everything that you were lead to believe in the first few Hrathen chapters is false, there is no curse, there is no impending doom by their god and that Hrathen really doesn't believe anything he's saying. I was very disappointed in that and almost stopped reading the book because it pretty much ruined Harthen as a character for me.  

It wouldn't have been such a big deal if EUOL had either not built up Hrathen's church having some measure of truth or if he had mentioned that the Seon wasn't an Elantian one.  I know he 1) didn't want to show that others could use/access the Dor too early on and 2) wanted to wait for a different book to talk about Seons.  Which, by the way, I think if EUOL revisits this world he should do a Prequel with Sarase's Uncle (forgot the name) as a pirate instead of a book that takes place after Elantrs, or at least do a short story for his website about him (he could do a Tales of the Pirate Crushed Throat section) or even a book of short stories.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 07, 2005, 09:30:13 AM
I really don't think that it shows they know their religion is false at all. If the LDS church were to do something like that, yes, it would. But their ethics obviously don't forbid using things otherwise forbidden as a tool to the end. Hrathen lies. A lot. He rationalizes it. Dilaf kills rather than bring people in. Yet he believes.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 09:55:23 AM
They're using the very thing they preach against how does that now prove they know their religion is false?  We don't know what the religion teaches about killing or how you justify converting people so you're Deilaf example is misplaced.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 07, 2005, 10:11:03 AM
we know that the prime objective of the religion is political unity. Anything to that end is a good, even if it involves normally forbidden activity.

Hrathen was obviously under the belief that bringing people into the fold was a higher good than wiping them out. Dilaf acts against that. I don't think you've said anything that negates that example.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 10:54:28 AM
Sure there are plenty.

It's stated several times that killing the unbelieving is the next best thing to conversion since their goal is to have everyone a believer so their god can appear on the planet.  The people in heaven, or what ever the equivalent is, don't need to believe only the ones alive.

Harthen wanted the chance to convert this time instead of killing, like he did in the previous country, since it was more of a challenge.  There is no mention that I know of that specifically says Harthen's religion has any "thou shall not kill" like rules/beliefs.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 07, 2005, 11:02:00 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at with that first paragraph. If it's the "next best thing" and the BEST thing was already pretty much assured, then why would the "next" best thing be preferred?

As for the second part, sure there was probably an element of the "challenge" but nearly all of the language describes Hrathen's reasons for wanting to convert rather than kill show him feeling guilty over the bloodshed he caused. He wants to avoid bloodshed not because it's harder, but because it's BETTER.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 11:10:48 AM
Don't shoot the messenger here SE blame EUOL if you don't like what's in the first paragraph its his book though I could be mistaken and it's actually their the same in importance.  Harthen really doesn't start to mention guilt and wanting to convert instead of killing for moral reasons until he starts to question his religion and motives.  So one could argue that the only reason he feels that way is because of his doubt/knowledge of that his religion isn't true.

One of the problems with this discussion is we're debating a fictional religion that is only briefly described.  So it's hard for you to argue your points since we know so Little of it and what little we do know supports my comments.  Remember this isn't any religion that we know or have experience with and you shouldn't assume common held beliefs on our world would be held with the same regard in Elantris's.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Skar on June 07, 2005, 11:31:37 AM
Hrathen wants to convert instead of kill from the very beginning of the book, it's his plainly stated goal, so I don't know how you got the idea that he only starts wanting to convert instead of kill when he starts to question his religion, later.  

As for using the Seon wrecking his religious piety, I don't agree.  We find out later that Hrathen's religion uses the Dor in their monks and that Hrathen certainly knew about it since he was in that monastery for awhile.  He blatantly uses the elantrians as an excuse.  He consciously decides to PRETEND that they are evil and devils as a political tool.  Dilaf has major problems with them but that's because of his personal experiences.  As far as I could tell (and I may be misremembering, it's easy to lose details like this) Hrathen's religion didn't have institutionalized religious/moral sanctions against the Elantrians at all.

Essentially, at the higher levels, Hrathen's religion didn't have a problem with magic in general, since they use it in their monks, but only when it was used against them or it just wasn't under their control.  So Hrathen's use of the seon is just an indicator of complexity rather than an indicator of hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 07, 2005, 11:34:11 AM
uhm... that's my point. What we do know of it does NOT support your view.

"The conversion of Arelon and Teod was his urgent duty. He had three months to change the religious temperament of an entire culture; it was a monumental task, but it was vital that he succeed. If he did not, Fjorden's armies would destroy every living being..."

That's from the first chapter Hrathon is in, page 42. The first paragraph of the book doesn't talk about Hrathen or Derethi. THe first paragraph Hrathen is in says "He had three months to convert the entire kingdom of Arelon; otherwise Holy Jaddeth ... would destroy it." It doesn't say anything about the conversion being a "challenge" but does imply that he really wants to save it before it's destroyed, indicating care.

The second chapter HRathen is in says
Quote
He had made the offer [of conversion to King Iadon] out of duty, knowing that the easiest way to save Arelon would be to convert its ruler, but he hadn't expected Iadon to respond favorably. If only the king knew how much suffering he could forestall with a simple profession of faith.

It was too late now; Iadon had formally rejected Jaddeth. he would have to become an example. However, Hrathen would have to be careful. Memories of the Duladen revolution were still stark in Hrathen's mind -- the death, blood, and chaos. Such a cataclysm had to be avoided. Hrathen was a stern man, and a determined one, but he was no lover of carnage.

OF course, with only three months' time, he might not have a choice. If he was going to succeed, he might have to incite a revolt. More death and more chaos -- horrible things to throw upon a nation that had still hadn't recovered from its last violent revolution. (p 64)

Obviously, the most important objective is conversion. but it's preferable that it be peaceful to HRathen. This passage doesn't speak of challenge, it speaks of him trying the easiest, even if unlikely, path first. It DOES speak of horror and wanting to avoid violence. This is loooong before any doubts in his faith are expressed. While I see Hrathen being quite egotistical (he does, after all, think of himself as a savior and being honored), and the implication that he certainly enjoys a challenge, I don't find anywhere in the text even a hint that he wants to achieve a peaceful conversion BECAUSE it's a more difficult challenge.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 07, 2005, 11:46:18 AM
let me correct an error I made there. That extended quote is from the THIRD chapter Hrathen appears in. It is the second that features him as the POV character, and thus the second that gives us much insight into his thought process.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on June 07, 2005, 11:47:47 AM
Now hold on there lets look at your quote: "Memories of the Duladen revolution were still stark in Hrathen's mind -- the death, blood, and chaos. Such a cataclysm had to be avoided. Hrathen was a stern man, and a determined one, but he was no lover of carnage." that shows a personal feeling not a dogmatic one.  The goal of Hrathen and his church is to have every liveing human a believer by any means nessacery and there are only 2 means coversion or death.  Now you're correct, and I was wrong, about when Hrathen was talking about wanting to save lives, but he does mention the challenge of saveing lives raither then killing to Dilef several times.

Maybe we're argueing different things, mine is the religion dosen't make a difference and you seam to argueing wither or not Hrathen cares or not.  But from how EUOL builds Hrathen I could still aruge my point on him only questing his religion in relation to killing since he seams to have been doubting his faith from before he arrived in the Elantris area.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 07, 2005, 11:56:08 AM
no, my point is that the Seon use hardly proves anything wrong. Hrathen and Dilaf both use plenty of methods that are distasteful at least, unorthodox almost always, and forbidden in many cases, to further their religion. Why is a seon so different than not caring that the people really believe as long as Derethi institutional? It's just the way the religion approaches things.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Chimera on July 13, 2005, 05:56:27 AM
I'm bumping this thread, because I've mentioned it twice and I feel like it.  8) <--me being super cool

But we don't have to talk about the religion of Elantris anymore if we don't want to. (In my opinion, it was done to death, but we've got some new blood with Elantris on the brain, and they may have contributions about characters OR religion.)
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: neiana on July 15, 2005, 07:10:38 PM
um... I'm not sure if being on topic is allowed in these forums... but I'm gonna give it a shot anyways ^_~

My favorite "character" was Elantris, or to be more specific, New Elantris.  In all honesty, I'd have enjoyed it all the same had the plot merely focused on Elantris - of course taking over the other gangs would have had to be more difficult.

I suppose that's sort of cheating though, using the city itself as a character, but isn't it? In a sense, it was a living embodiment of the Dor!  It has the most personality, the biggest lost, and the most to gain by Raodon's research.  Not a single character other than Elantris itself had so much at stake in the novel.

I suppose I'm still cheating.  The people of Elantris, as a single entity, is what I'm really referring to.  I still think I'm allowed to refer to them and the city put together as Elantris, but if not I imagine the author will shortly inform me of my mistake. ^_~

I felt, personally, that the city was the single main character.  I felt that all the other characters were only secondary, the political drama a secondary plot to the single greatest struggle aside from good v. evil.

Nature v. Nurture.

As for religion.  Just because a religion teaches against another, or a group of people, doesn't mean the work of those men are worthless.  Think of the Bible (I imagine many of you do on a regular basis, being BYU folk), it says that all things are under His command, that all things will work together, by His hand, for good.

So just because certain people may consider themselves divine outside of one religious belief, doesn't mean their creations are immediately evil.  After all: "To the pure, all things are pure."

- N
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: demented_yam on August 13, 2005, 02:34:32 PM
My favorite plotline was Raoden's.

say what you will about dynamic characters, but to me, dynamic societies are much more fun to watch.

watching raoden turn the uber-leper colony Elantris from an trisomy of tyrannical dictatorships into one cohesive society was more interesting than watching hrathen do his little soul-searching/ 'find your self' schindig
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Entsuropi on August 13, 2005, 03:37:58 PM
But raoden himself was too static. :/
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 23, 2005, 01:53:58 PM
On Karen's and my readthrough of Elantris, we found all three characters to have significant internal struggles. Raoden was always under a ton of pressure, and Sarene's got some severe self-image problems. Both overcome things at least somewhat by the end of the book, so that's character growth.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Brickwalker on September 22, 2005, 06:58:16 AM
I myself enjoyed Hrathen, Yes, At first his chapters sort of dragged on when the real excitement was held in the other chapters, However he really began to show during the later chapters, His troubled faith and his inhibition that went with it. Mostly though, I enjoyed the lesser characters, such as Kiin and Saolin, I like those who die with honor (Hrathen included), selflessness if you will, or just show an extreme act of honor, in Kiins case protecting Sarene, as well as those holding a dark and clouded past.


Sarene just felt a little too "refined" in some of the chapters, they were a bit out there.

Raodens were the most interesting, however I couldnt really relate.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Nessa on October 03, 2005, 03:22:45 PM
I liked Sarene best, perhaps because I identify with her. Perhaps it's because I'm a tall 'gangly' woman myself, and thought Brandon portrayed that well, as well as her insecurities.

I did like Raoden, but he was too good to be true, romantic-wise. Perhaps this is the disillusioned married-for-almost-ten-years woman in me speaking. But still.

Vanessa (newby here, perhaps you will see more of me)
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: CtrlZed on October 03, 2005, 05:57:01 PM
***Caution--spoilers below!!***

My favorite character in Elantris was Polgara, followed by Garrion.  When the Elantrians finally realize who she is (tall blonde with streak of black hair) I actually had to set the book down because I was weeping so much. :'(
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Tage on October 03, 2005, 06:00:23 PM
Quote
***Caution--spoilers below!!***

My favorite character in Elantris was Polgara, followed by Garrion.  When the Elantrians finally realize who she is (tall blonde with streak of black hair) I actually had to set the book down because I was weeping so much. :'(


Ha, that made me laugh. You will still be soundly beaten for the analogy, though.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: stacer on October 03, 2005, 07:03:49 PM
I thought it was funny, but I feel I'm missing half the joke.

And as far as Raoden being too good to be true, aren't all the men in fiction? You don't have to be married for ten years to be disillusioned. A coworker who I lent the book to says he finds it "charmingly naive," and I believe he's referring to Raoden and Sarene's relationship. Yet there's something about naive that works for me, because that's the way it should happen (minus the arranged marriage and finding yourself a widow on your wedding day parts)--i.e., it should work for somebody. Plus, I think he finds the whole waiting-for-sex thing naive.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Nessa on October 03, 2005, 07:51:24 PM
Quote
I think he finds the whole waiting-for-sex thing naive.


Grr. That really grates (I know you didn't say it stacer). Fantasy readers complain Kiin's 'too modern' and then 'waiting-for-sex' too naive? Made up your minds! I mean, if this is supposed to be a less-modern society then 'waiting-for-sex' would have been typical custom, wouldn't it? I know, I know, it happened, but really! It was considered sin by the general public, whereas today's modern sensibilities....

You see where I'm going with this?
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: RaoCar on November 30, 2005, 06:10:51 PM
No not really. I am lost now. But...

My fav character in the book is the Seons. They may be a little to obedient but overall they are the best.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Faster Master St. Pastor on December 01, 2005, 01:02:33 AM
Probably should have done this when I finished the book, but I would have to say that Hrathen was my favorite. His internal dialouge really interested me, though not until a couple Triads into the book. I had my sister really question being Mormon for a while and so I could kinda realate. He was definatly the most in-depth.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Shrain on December 01, 2005, 12:20:23 PM
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My fav character in the book is the Seons. They may be a little to obedient but overall they are the best.

Ah, yes, the Seons!! I'm still so curious about them. I thought we'd learn how they're created by the end. So, when I finished reading the copy I had (it was an old version when it was still his thesis), I just had to bug EUOL about it. ("The Seons, dang it, tell me about the Seons!" Okay, I was more restrained than that. I said something more like "Did I miss something that's in the revised version cuz I really, really wanted to figure the Seons out too.")
So anyway, I was exceedingly happy when EUOL said that he might have a sequel regarding Light -and- Dark Seons in the works after the Mistborn trilogy is out.  :D Now -that- would be cool.
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I would have to say that Hrathen was my favorite. His internal dialouge really interested me . . .

I'd definitely put in my vote for Hrathen as well. What an awesome bad guy! His inner conflict was fascinating, as was his attraction to Sarene. One reason I felt more drawn to him over Raoden is that Raoden tended to be a little more, um, self-assured than Hrathen.
Yes, the un-dead Prince got off to a *very* rough start and has internal worries of his own.
All in all, though, he comes off as so determined in his specific goals.  I felt like the problems coming at him were more external whereas Hrathen is beseiged by tons of inward turmoil in addition to outward struggles. So that's why Hrathen's POV was especially intriguing for me. I really liked how his character turned out at the end, too. Hurrah for multi-sided bad guys!!  :D
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Faster Master St. Pastor on December 01, 2005, 07:04:36 PM
(Major spoilers for anyone here that hasn't read the book. Yeah right)

Yes, his bad guy 'climax' when he saves Sarene and then Raoden was completly fulfilling. Excspecially where he decides that even if he may be betraying Wyrn and Dilaf he is still preventing bloodshed and doing something good. I also find his acceptance that Jaddeth can judge him very cool.

His attraction to Sarene was very well done in my opinion, if he had gone all mushy and started pining for her it would have totally betrayed his character. I have to say, my favorite Hrathen moment was where Dilaf stabbed him and his armor turned out to be real.

Like I've said before, he is the best character (in my humble opinion).
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: dark prophecy on December 25, 2005, 06:14:16 AM
Yep, I liked Hrathen. It was his change and coming to grips with who he really was that got me hooked.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Faster Master St. Pastor on December 27, 2005, 01:07:55 AM
Elantris was the first hook, Hrathen was the second. Definately.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Lost One on January 03, 2006, 07:51:43 PM
Hrathen has to be the best/main character because he has the most depth and conflict. He really comes off as trying to be a savior and a devil. I particularly like Hrathen because he is the logical/rational "bad guy" who doesn't do bad things just because he is suppose to be "evil." Hrathen really makes Elantris worth reading.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: QuickTidal on January 11, 2006, 09:59:04 PM
*a guest poster here from the Steven Erikson boards*

I gotta agree that it is Hrathen. At first it is Raoden and Sarene, but later when Hrathen begins his internal struggle, and it's climax, just made him so fantastic. I mean, you knew he was gonna have to do something drastic, but you're not sure what exactly until it happens. Nicely executed.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: guitarbabe on January 17, 2006, 11:33:44 PM
That's it! I'm feeling left out. I'm reading the book! I did read the first three chapters on the website though. Gripping. Now, that's the style I think is fun. So, I'll get back to you, but so far, the girl, definitely the girl is my favorite. Sassy!
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: styleofmyown on January 18, 2006, 09:05:44 PM
My favorite POV was Raoden's.  I found the whole thing with Elantris very fascinating.  Sarene was a close second (and yes I thought she was very realistic).  Hrathen's POV was slowing the book down to start with.  I just wanted to read the other's stories, but about halfway through the book his story was just as interesting and exciting.  I like the internal struggle.
My favorite parts about the book were finding out about Elantris, the romance *sigh*, and the political battle for the kingdom.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Onion of Death on January 23, 2006, 04:13:38 PM
Hrathen was most definitely my favorite character, though I thoroughly enjoyed reading all three points of view. He was by far the deepest of the characters, and I can relate to his struggling with religion. My favorite quote of his was where he said something along the lines of "My problems are with Wyrn, not with Jaddeth." It came at just the right moment, and to me it defines his character perfectly.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: DragonRider0_0 on February 08, 2006, 02:01:21 AM
I would Have To say
1 Serene Because I feel Like I Relate To Her More then anyone else. She's Inteligent, Kind, Willing To do what has to, Idependent. In my Mind Very atractive
(hey I'm a guy)                          
                                                 
2 Roaden                                    

3 Hrathen
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Spriggan on February 08, 2006, 03:18:26 AM
/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
/\\/
\/\/\/

/\\/\/\/\/\/

/\/\/\/\

/\/\/\\/

Consummate Vs!  I said Consummate Vs!
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on February 08, 2006, 09:02:44 AM
those look like touch your toes instructional diagrams.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Bookstore Guy on February 08, 2006, 03:04:00 PM
I have had this conversation with Brandon a few times, and the point we end up circling around to everytime is that we like change.  For this reason I am a big fan of Hrathen.  

Nothing frustrates me more than characters who dont learn - ever (*cough*Jordan*cough*).  I think we as humans are naturally drawn towards change and struggle.  I like to see dynamics, and i think that Hrathen shows this the most in Elantris (and of course there is a lot of this in Mistborn, which is just one of its many strengths).

I say much of this also based on reader feedback from the people who I help at my store.  There has been a shift in what readers want - they don't want LOTR clones anymore.  This is why authors like Brandon and Steven Erikson and R Scott Bakker have done so well in our store and nation-wide.  These guys arent afraid of taking risks and trying something different.  The majority of readers appreciate it!
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Princess_Luney on October 04, 2006, 04:44:48 PM
Raoden!  I'm in love with the man.  Secondly...Sarene.  I rarely like girls in fantasy, (well in books in general) so good job with her!

:D

Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Pemberley on October 06, 2006, 01:37:38 AM
I like Sarene, but Raoden is a close second.  I like it that Sarene can be a strong women, but doesn't come off as masculine.  Funny, since she was written by a man ...
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: stacer on October 06, 2006, 03:19:24 AM
That actually brings up a point that a lot of writers and literary people debate--whether someone can successfully write a character of the opposite gender. I think so. Sometimes it just takes a little more work than others. And then that debate gets extended or rehashed in the form of whether people can write well about other cultures, whether as a point of view character of a different race than the author, or of a character who interacts with another culture. That's actually one of the reasons I love fantasy, because then cultural trappings like that get at least a little less important. But gender remains.

We had a really great discussion here a while back about how to write an empowered feminine character who isn't just a man in a dress. Tamora Pierce came up as one of the early feminist versions of an empowered female character in fantasy, and at least in the first book or so, Alanna does pretend to be a man.

I've come to the conclusion, though, that it annoys me that certain acts are considered more "masculine" and that a woman is "pretending to be a man" if she does them. This is probably because I've had an exboyfriend tell me he thought I was too masculine in what I did--I could fix things for myself, knew my way around a car, that sort of thing. That's dumb. I just happen to be a farm girl, and girls on the farm have to be just as resourceful as boys. So what? Those kinds of things really should someday be considered gender-neutral, dang it, because I like knowing how to hammer a nail in straight, and I'm pretty proud of the fact that I helped my dad build two barns and several fencelines.

</resident semi-feminist rant, borne out of procrastination of work. Yes, it's 11 pm and I'm editing a book. Kind of.>
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on October 06, 2006, 09:33:17 AM
despite my usual disinterest in feminist arguments, the gender identity is the most interesting thing about Eowyn in Jackson's production of the Lord of the Rings. She spends the whole time trying to fight to defend her people, and not being allowed to do so, in her mind because she's a girl, though there are legitimate reasons not to let her on to the field of battle. She ultimately has to pretend to be a man. Yet, her biggest part in the movies she can accomplish exactly because she is *not* a man. Thus rejecting the entire "fighting is men's work" dogma.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: dreamking47 on October 06, 2006, 03:11:24 PM
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We had a really great discussion here a while back about how to write an empowered feminine character who isn't just a man in a dress.


Could you post a pointer to this previous thread?  It's of particular interest to me because I'm mid-way through writing My First Novel (tm) and my main POV character is a young woman.  I wouldn't say that the writing is any more difficult than when I write a male lead (writing is always difficult for me), but I am a little less sure, a little more aware that here be things that I may just be flat out wrong about.  The story required a young woman, though, so that's what I'm writing.

I can say that what I'm doing is writing a sparser first draft than I otherwise might, keeping the character focused on her goals.  Then I intend to solicit comments from my female friends about how believable my character is as a woman and things I could do to make her more-so (in the sense of perspectives, reactions and areas of concern, not "more scenes where she's applying lipstick"), without alienating a male audience in the process.  That to me is the key question: how can a writer best write a major POV character, make that character's gender matter, and yet not alienate the other gender?

I think a lot ultimately depends on the author's self-awareness, which leads into an awareness of others and overall imaginative faculties.  There are a lot of female writers who I think can't (or don't) write women, just Mary Sues, and male writers who can't or don't write believable men -- gender by itself guarantees nothing.  As far as my character goes, I am making sure she is "empowered" in the sense that she has real choices about her future, with relatively few financial, social, etc. constraints.  As you say, activities and skills are hardly ever gender-specific...the few that are mostly involve childbirth and rearing.  While some men are just threatened by "empowered" women, I do also think some feminists have helped create or at least support the "pretending to be a man" concept by equating "empowerment" with "empowered to choose traditionally male roles," rather than the broader, "empowered to choose whatever role they want."

Re: Lord of the Rings, I don't know, All Hallows E, if you're familiar with Neil Gaiman's concept that there are male and female stories, as well as characters (which would be another interesting topic for discussion), but one of the interesting things about LotR is that I think there's a very "male" story in the foreground overlaying a very "female" story in the background that peeks through every now and then.  I think that's part of why it has such cross-gender appeal.

I did wonder, though, whether Merry (who was male but not a man) or one of the Dead Men wouldn't also have been able to take out that Nazgul...

MattD
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Princess_Luney on October 06, 2006, 04:14:07 PM
I'd be interested in that thread too, Stacer!

I have problems a lot of women in books, especially sci-fi, because they seem to have a (as my sisters and I are fond of calling it) Xena warrior princess personality.  Where, as Stacer called it,  a man in a dress.  

I think it's great if she kicks butt, repairs things, spits, whatever, so long as she retains some sense of femininity.  Sarene was tough, taught the women how to swordfight, but she was also quite distinctly female.  Same with Vin, from Mistborn.  Sure she grew up with a bunch of men, pretended to be one, can fight with the best of them....but grows to love pretty dresses and perfume.  I *love* that.  
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: stacer on October 06, 2006, 04:28:59 PM
Oh, goodness, I can't remember. I think it was one of EUOL's threads, actually, in which he asked us ladies about what it feels like to wear a dress. :) I'll look and see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: stacer on October 06, 2006, 04:35:25 PM
Aha! Here it is. It was actually in an old "What's everyone reading?" thread, in which Izzy and I were talking about Patricia Wrede's Dragons series.

You'll have to scroll down a couple posts, then find Mistress of Darkness's question. It starts with "What do you think is antifeminist about Wrede's books?" or something like that.

I *think* this is the conversation.

http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=books;action=display;num=1035778613;start=160
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: dreamking47 on October 06, 2006, 06:35:20 PM
Thanks much!

MattD
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Nessa on October 07, 2006, 11:56:29 AM
Quote
I just happen to be a farm girl, and girls on the farm have to be just as resourceful as boys. So what? Those kinds of things really should someday be considered gender-neutral, dang it, because I like knowing how to hammer a nail in straight, and I'm pretty proud of the fact that I helped my dad build two barns and several fencelines.

I grew up on a farm, too. I've been doing some heavy-duty gardening at our new house (removing bushes, tilling, shoveling, etc etc) and everyone assumes that my husband did most of the work. Ha. Sure he helped remove the bushes but I did everything else and it was a ton of work. Women are perfectly capable of hard physical labor.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on October 07, 2006, 01:27:37 PM
HA!  I live on a farm RIGHT NOW and just got back from moving cows!  It gets under my skin at cowshows and the like when people assume that being petite means you can't stick your fingers up a bull's nose, and "jen wur a purdy new outfeit" [In exact enunciation of a few]  a few hours later!

*ahem*After that rant, Sarene and Hrathen were my faves. Roaden was to perfect, but Hrathen and Sarene's flaws made them more real to me.
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: the_mythsmyth on October 23, 2006, 09:38:21 PM
Gender Roles eh? Well, I hate to toot my own horn in my very first post, but on my blog (mythsmyth.livejournal.com) I wrote my very first book review ever about Elantris, in which I mentioned the gender roles portrayed by the characters. Especially Sarene.

Now, I loved Elantris, and my favourite character was BY FAR Hrathen, because I feel the most attached to him (I get sent to topple monarchies all the time). Hrathen was identifiable with me because of his spiritual issues and firm belief in something. Sarene I liked because she was the kick-ass female type, but she retained her femininity at the same time (hated her hair loss, cared about her dresses, felt that she needed to liberate her ignorant gender-mates etc.)

Oh yeah, and Galadon rocked, of course.

- Sam Higgins (the mythsmyth)
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: lehea on January 01, 2007, 11:19:17 PM
my favorite characters... let's see:  Raoden, Sarene, Hrathen, Galladon, Katara, Duke Roial, Sarene's uncle (can't remember his name for the life of me... save "Hunkey Kay"), Lord Shuden, and a few others I can't think of thanks to lack of sleep and being sick.  :(
Title: Re: Favorite Character in Elantris
Post by: Pterath on January 02, 2007, 01:00:03 AM
"Hunkey Kay" is Sarene's Unkle Kiin.  And I have to say I really connected with Raoden's character best because I like the fact that he tried to be positive despite all of the negativity/pain/adversity and general malaise heaped on the Shoad.  He did not betray the person anyone thought him to be on outside of Elantris even if he did not give his name.  Staying true to form is important.

Sarene and Hrathen are tied but it took me a good bit longer to begin to care for them and in the end I cared for them very much.