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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: EUOL on June 14, 2006, 04:40:36 PM

Title: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on June 14, 2006, 04:40:36 PM
I figured I'd start a new thread, since I'll be linking this from my site, and don't want the files to be buried two or three pages in.

This is the place for a collection of sample chapters from the newest book I'm working on.  Scroll down to the bottom of this post for the links, read on for an explanation of what's going on here.

WARBREAKER (tentative title) is the novel I'll be releasing through  Tor after the MISTBORN trilogy.  It is a stand-alone fantasy novel, with no relation to previous books I've done.  From the beginning, I've said that I want to publish stand-alones frequently, since I see a distinct lack of them in the epic fantasy field.

I finished the three MISTBORN books before Tor even published the first one, and I'm putting those through my writing groups.  However, it will be years before Tor--or my writing groups--will have a chance to look at WARBREAKER.  I've already got two books in the queue, and so a lot of the focus will be on them for a time. 

However, a number of people have noticed that I'm working on the book, and are curious about it, so I thought I'd start posting some of the sample chapters--both because I wanted to show them what I was doing, and because I wanted to get a bit of feedback.   

These then got quite a good reaction!  I went to Tor, and we both decided that posting the whole book on-line would be a great way (hopefully) to improve my readership.  I only ask a couple of things:

1) Consider giving me comments to help me make the book the best it can be. 

2)  Don't judge my writing style too harshly based on these chapters, as they aren't polished at all!  This is more than simple prose problems. Names will change--sometimes inside of the same chapter--as I try different spellings and see which ones I like.  The setting isn't as fleshed out as I'd like yet, and some of the mechanics are awkward.  And, I often flesh out characters a lot as I write them.   So, consider yourself warned!  Remember, my published works are much better.

3)  And, speaking of my published works, I ask you to consider buying them.  If you like this book, then you'll like them even more!  Plus, the better my sales are, the more likely I'll be able to keep doing this for a living.  So, please check out Elantris (paperback stand alone) and Mistborn (hardback, first in a trilogy).  Also, consider buying Warbreaker when the hardback comes out!

That said, here are the chapters!  I'll update them as I revise, and add new ones to this post as I decide to put them up.

Thanks!
Brandon Sanderson
September, 2006

And now, the actual chapters!

Part One Collection Version 2.0(Chapters 1-13 in one download) (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/AAWarbreakerPartOne-2.0.doc)

Part Two Collection Version 2.0(Chapters 14-25 in one download) (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/AAWarbreakerPartTwo-2.0.doc)

Part Three Collection Version 2.0(Chapters 26-37 in one download) (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/AAWarbreakerPartThree-2.0.doc)

NEW:
Chapter Forty Nine (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-049-3.0.doc)

Old Chapters:
Chapter Forty Eight (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-048-3.0.doc)
Chapter Forty Seven (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-047-3.0.doc)
Chapter Forty Six (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-046-3.0.doc)
Chapters Forty four and forty five (one file) (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-044-45-3.0.doc)
Chapter Forty Three (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-043-1.0.doc)
Chapter Forty Two (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-042-1.0.doc)
Chapter Forty One (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-041-1.0.doc)
Chapter Forty (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-040-1.0.doc)
Chapter Thirty Nine (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-039-1.0.doc)
Chapter Thirty Eight (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-038-1.0.doc)
Chapter Thirty Seven (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-037-1.0.doc)

Comparison Document Part one 1.0 to 2.0 (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/Warbreaker Part One 1.0 to 2.0 Comparison.doc)

 Link to older versions of chapters (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/book.php?id=3&section=16)


NOTE:
If you want something more polished to compare WARBREAKER to, you can reference ELANTRIS chapters:  (I wrote this book seven years ago, and it was published last year.)
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/page.php?id=8

Or, you can look at MISTBORN chapters:  (I wrote this book two years ago, and it will be published in July.)
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article.php?id=30
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 14, 2006, 04:49:15 PM
Theory of this book and known issues.

Other than the things I mentioned above--the things I still need to work out with character and setting--I have a few comments about this book.  The first thing that you might want to know is that it is a reaction against MISTBORN.  I did a big trilogy which was generally very serious, with a lot of dark colorings in the setting and description.  So, I wanted to something different.

That said, I don't want the book to feel frivolous or silly.  I want the characters to have depth and feel just as real as those in MISTBORN, even if I'm not giving them the deep emotional scars that Vin, Sazed, and Kelsier displayed.  In a way, I want to deal with people who are actually more real, in that they aren't quite as messed up.  (But, hopefully, still interesting.)  

The cook character might be going too far--I'm still not sure on here.  Also, chapter three feels a little like a filler chapter to me, yet another piece of me sees it as necessary to get reactions on page.  I may just cut all three of these chapters (once the book is finished) and begin more in the middle of what is going on.  (I considered starting the book with what will be, eventually, chapter four.  However, I worried that I needed a few scenes earlier to establish character.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 15, 2006, 05:19:46 AM
Update:

I posted the 2.0 draft of chapter one.  I changed the prose quite a bit, fixing some of the dialogue.  

Another thing I could use some comments on is the naming paradigms of the book.  For a long time, I've been wanting to use an almost stuttering sound for a language--one that started off with repeated alliterative syllables.  So, we've got:

T'Telir, Vivena, Susebron, and others.  I resisted doing all of them as apostrophes (V'Vena and S'Sebron) simply because it's become a fantasy cliché to have apostrophes in names for no reason.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on June 15, 2006, 06:18:18 AM
I agree that the apostrophe thing is overdone. I also think it makes the name a little harder to remember.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 15, 2006, 07:34:31 AM
Update:  Chapter four is up.  This one is extra rough!  It's 4 am, and I just finished this.  I haven't read through it at all, I just spellchecked it and posted it!

42:  It's kind of sad.  The apostrophe got so over-used that now it's hard to even justify it when one has a distinct, linguistic reason for it.  Do you like me varying the methods of the alliteration, like above, or do you think I should lose all of the apostrophes?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on June 15, 2006, 07:45:39 AM
IMO, lose the apostrophes. It's a writing tool that's past its prime.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 15, 2006, 09:04:48 AM
Even Salvatore (who essentially started the fad) admits it's far overdone. However, it's not like every other name in the drafts has one.

However, I just scanned. Now I'm going to have to read closely. From what I saw, it looks like you're using an idea very similar to one I've had boiling in my brain. THus I might have to hate you once again.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on June 15, 2006, 01:39:36 PM
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/14/campbellnominated_sf.html

Did you send in this link yourself Brandon?  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 15, 2006, 06:36:32 PM
Did Anne McCaffrey not start the apostrophe thing with the Pern books?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on June 16, 2006, 09:21:55 AM
The Pern names are actually contractions of their birth names. In Salvatore.... everyone just ... had them.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 16, 2006, 03:20:27 PM
I know they were contractions... Did any fantasy writer use apostrophe names before McCaffrey? Were there any in Tolkein?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 16, 2006, 05:36:12 PM
I always thought it was McCaffery that started the trend, then Salvatore that killed it.

And yes, I submitted the BoingBoing link.  I thought the readers there might think this was an interesting exercise.  None of them registered to post, however, so I'm not sure how interested they actually were.

Anyway, chapter five is up.  My current issue is the Siri age issues.  How old should I make her?  In my first draft, she was going to be only one or two years younger than Vivena.  However, when I wrote the first Siri chapter, I realized that she needed more siblings in her family to properly craft the "youngest child" persona.  

I generally think that the youngest child acts young for their age.  I actually placed her at about seventeen in my mind--which means I'll probably need to increase Vivena's age a bit, since there are two children between them.  

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on June 16, 2006, 05:56:07 PM
Well we got about 700 extra hits from the link so it wasn't a waste.

You had 106 downloads of chapter one from the 14-15
and 50 of chapters 2 and 3
while chapter 4 had 44.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: fuzzyoctopus on June 17, 2006, 03:42:12 AM
I think, in answer to a previously asked question, the cook may be too much.  Could she not have the rustic/hillbilly accent?  I think that's what's jarring me out of all the nice descriptions of what's going on.  She could fulfill her role as lady-in-waiting/mother figure/explainer, what-have-you without being the dialecty comic relief.

Oh, by the way, Siri is much better in this chapter, and I especially like the part about "For the first time in either of their lives, Father had chosen Siri over Vivena."

I await with great anticipation, as we never got past this part of Siri's story in Mythwalker, and I've been waiting probably 4 years or more to find out what happends   ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: thelsdj on June 17, 2006, 04:15:43 AM
I found this via boingboing, just finished reading chapter 5, really liking it so far.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 17, 2006, 10:15:43 AM
And, chapter Six is up.  I think I'm going to need to do some editing now, to clean some things up, perhaps get some 2.0 versions up of the more recent chapters.

Note in chapter 6 the evolution of the term "First Heightening."  I like this, as a concept, which is something I touched on in Chapter 1, but didn't really explore.  It locked into place in this chapter.  

Nightblood is still getting worked out by me as a character.  The others are firming up fairly solidly.  I do worry about jumping around between four separate viewpoints in the book.  Anyone getting lost?

FUZZY:  Yeah, I think I agree about cook.  I need to work on her more as the story evolves.  I really liked her in the first Siri scene--she worked excellently there.  Throwing her into the carriage, however, hasn't worked as well as I wanted.  She's one of the weak spots in the book for me right now.

THELSDJ:  Hey, thanks for giving a voice to the lurkers.  Glad you're enjoying the book.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: thelsdj on June 17, 2006, 08:43:59 PM
I'm following along just fine, the 4 different viewpoints don't seem to cause too much problems.

With regards to the cook, you've got a lot of complex characters and we know she has an interesting history, but maybe theres a way to expose that better early on, make sure she's useful.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Tink on June 19, 2006, 02:09:53 PM
Quote
I generally think that the youngest child acts young for their age.  I actually placed her at about seventeen in my mind--which means I'll probably need to increase Vivena's age a bit, since there are two children between them.  

Any thoughts?


I haven't read the chapters as of yet, so mostly I am just responding with my own experience and not to how you've written your character, but being the youngest in my family (of 5 children, the oldest being 8 years older and the rest in between) I was always being mistaken for being older because I acted closer to the age of my sisters who were the two oldest. So I don't believe this is necessarily true that the youngest acts young for their age.

Also, I knew a girl who was way younger than the rest of her siblings (one of the those surprise children that come when you think you're done) and she acted very mature for her age, probably because she was always being surrounded by her teenage siblings and their friends. She wanted to emulate them and so tried to act more mature like them.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: stacer on June 19, 2006, 03:40:27 PM
That's my experience, too. I wasn't the youngest--rather, the middle child--but I was always told I acted more the age of my sister, 3 years older. We were very close and always doing similar activities (when she joined softball, so did I, when she was on poms, so was I, and she and I made cheerleading the same year). We shared clothes back and forth by the time I hit junior high. It helped that I was taller than her, and being a very intelligent child and way ahead of my peers in academics, I was always reading at about Laura's level anyway, so it wasn't much of a surprise when people mistook us for twins or thought I was older than her.

Now, let's hope they don't still think I'm older now that we're in our 30s.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 19, 2006, 06:48:21 PM
Haven't read chapter 6 yet.

I had a question about structure though. First, did you realize there is no chapter 1? What's in the "chapter 1" file is labeled "Prologue." Should we conceptually treat it as a prologue, or as chapter 1?

After reading chapter 5, the structure struck me as a little odd, that we get one chapter from the blood sword guy's point of view, then three from Siri and her family, then a new one from a totally different point of view. Is the prologue guy going to be a main character or not? And why have those Siri family bits split up into three chapters?

As for the cook...she immediately struck me as suspicious, like she's the replacement for the old man in Mythwalker, and all his hidden baggage. Otherwise, why is she there? Except for my exposure to too many Brandon books, though, she doesn't bug me at all.

My 2-years younger sister (who was like a middle child because my older sister is 5 years older than me) always had to do everything at the same time I did. However, my youngest sister is three years younger than that, and I'd say she always did seem young, though perhaps only in comparison to my younger sister at that age.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 19, 2006, 08:49:51 PM
Folks,

Thanks for the responses, they are very useful.  

Ookla,

Yes, chapter one will probably be a prologue in the final draft.  Who's the main character of the book?  That's a tough one.  Siri, Vivenna, Vasher, and Lightsong will probably get equal treatment.  Of them all, Siri will probably get the most screen time, but I'm not sure yet.  However, I decided to prologue the first chapter, since Siri's story will get the most weight early on, and that lets me start chapter one with her viewpoint.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 19, 2006, 08:52:59 PM
Chapter Seven is up.

A couple of notes:

I'm tweaking the way the hair thing works with Siri and Vivenna.  I'm not going to let the hair get shorter, only longer.  (Seems to make sense.)  I'll be standardizing when it curls vs. straightens shortly, as well as which colors which mean which emotions.

This was a very tricky chapter, and I could use some feedback on it.  Siri is going through a lot of emotional turmoil, and is getting put through something fairly drastic.  How are her reactions?  Also, is this dynamic enough and tense enough for what is occurring?  The God King, ominous enough or not?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 19, 2006, 09:46:06 PM
Chapter Seven needed a revision as badly as elf needs food, so I did one.  It clarifies a lot of the language and events.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 19, 2006, 09:56:37 PM
Hmm. So if they have a massive hair-growing spurt, do they get really hungry?

It might make sense for it to grow out different colors, like people who have dyed their hair, though I've been inclined to believe reports of people whose hair turns white overnight under extreme stress, indicating wholesale color change is not impossible.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: thelsdj on June 19, 2006, 11:05:22 PM
In regards to the age of Siri and the other siblings, the standard in fantasy seems to be to marry them off young, so Vivenna being sent at 20 seems quite old. Now I guess the reason for the standard in fantasy is because in human history when life expectancy was shorter you needed to be married and having children as soon as possible. So the question is in the Warbreaker world what kinds of things would effect the standard age of maturity/marriage/etc?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: thelsdj on June 19, 2006, 11:17:00 PM
Read chapter 7.
I'd say the God King is pretty ominous, but then again the way its written, I have to wonder whether he is just a puppet for others.

Right now I'm really wanting more backstory on the change of rule in these kingdoms, how long has it been since Siri's people were cast out? Who was the ruler before the current God King? Stuff like that.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on June 19, 2006, 11:27:26 PM
The immediteness of the marriage made the God King ominous enough for me.  I had expected there to be a long engagement with some wiggle room for Siri to escape the whole situation -- as fantasy often does.  The fact she's just being shoved into his chamber like this makes me nervous about what's going to be inside (because I don't know what to expect) and very anxious for Siri.  I'm hooked.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: fuzzyoctopus on June 20, 2006, 12:45:13 AM
So if her hair can only grow and not shorten, with her emotional outbursts, does she have to get a haircut every day or so to avoid Rapunzel-esque tresses?  

Miriel, trust me, I know how you feel!  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 20, 2006, 08:22:31 AM
Small post.  Chapter four (the Lightsong intro chapter) got a revision, so I bumped it up to 2.0.  The changes include swapping "Your Excellency" for "Your Grace."  (I'll use Excellency for the God King.)  I tweaked Llarimar's name a bit, gave him a different nickname (Lare just wasn't working) and made him look different (I'd described him and Bluefingers too similarly, and I want them to be distinct characters--which, I realize, is going to be tough to pull off.)  Also added "Heightening" levels in that reference when a person gains the ability of "Perfect Hues" as well as perfect pitch.

Still want to strengthen Llarimar's character, if possible.

--

Ookla,

Yeah, I think I will make them hungry when they grow a lot of hair.  Makes sense.  I considered writing it in to chapter seven, but didn't.  Now that you've mentioned it, it seems like it will be intuitive enough to people that I should do it.

Miriel and Thelsdj,

Excellent feedback.  Thank you.  It's good to know what I need to include more of, and what I'm doing right.  Thank you.

Fuzzy,

She can grow her hair, but it doesn't grow every time it changes color.  That just happens instantly to the extant hair.  I'll make this clear when drafting chapter two and three.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 20, 2006, 01:22:14 PM
I thought it odd that when she left the carriage, Mab didn't try to say anything. She was always so talkative before, I missed her mention completely and had to look at it this morning to even see if she wasn't skipped over entirely.

For Mythwalker readers, we've had a cliffhanger on Siri for what, 6 years? And we're still not quite past the point she got to before! You torture us so, Brandon... But I must ask--you're setting up the God King to have the same circumstances he had in Mythwalker (with a better magical setup this time; the Breath magic system is, I think, a good one--a particularly evil one, but a good one), but if you don't have the healing magic from Mythwalker, how is he ever going to get around that? Or are you going a completely different direction?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 21, 2006, 07:50:09 AM
Chapter Eight is up!

A note for those who read Ookla's post above, and might be curious.  The characters of Vivenna and Siri are ones that have been bouncing around in my head for quite a while.  I made one attempt at a book using them, back about five years ago or so.  

Unfortunately for the two of them, the rest of the elements of that book (particularly the person I chose as a hero, the magic system, and...well, a lot of things) just kind of fell apart.  It's my only true failure of a book, made more tragic by the fact that Siri's story was working so well.  

So, I decided that I'd give it another shot, reworking the two characters into a plot where they could be more of the focus, and where the setting and story were better thought out.  (I've learned a few things in the intervening years.)  

I never did finish the original book, which was titled MYTHWALKER.  So, the people who knew me at the time were left hanging as to what happened to the characters.  

I intend to finish it this time!  Ookla, you've got the right of it still. Susebron will be virtually the same character I imagined in MYTHWALKER>  I don't want to give spoilers to the others, but if you watch closely, you'll see how I'm going to work things out.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 21, 2006, 09:55:17 AM
Okay, because I'm just not the type who goes to sleep, I finished off a rewrite of chapter eight.  The 1.0 version is still downloadable--as it is for all of the other chapters.  You'll just have to change the url yourself if you want it for comparison reasons.

This edit was primarily just a language clean-up.  

Let me know what you think of Lightsong and Blushweaver.  I'm hoping to keep this story moving at a fairly good clip--at least, for me.  This puts us at 8 chapters of approximately 60.  (That's the average size for a book of mine.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: thelsdj on June 21, 2006, 09:29:57 PM
I like Lightsong. As for Blushweaver I don't think I like her much, but thats mostly because Lightsong doesn't seem to think much of her and I trust his judgement.

And seriously, stop torturing us with the drawn out Siri / God King interaction  ;)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: greyhound on June 21, 2006, 10:02:54 PM
I have been a lurker on this board for a little while , but turning off the de-lurk, I just wanted to say thanks for posting this WIP. Its wonderful to see how you develop this story, and amazing to see how polished your first drafts are. (Insert desperate wish here for half the cleanliness). Anyways, I think the story is great; you have already completely pulled me in with the character of Siri and making me flip pages as fast as I can, albeit electronically. I have always been a sucker for the rebel girl and I can't wait to see where the story takes her.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: blue on June 22, 2006, 01:36:01 AM
 :o
Wow. I'm amazed to see how together your first drafts are. When I'm writing a book, my novel resembles slightly organized chaos until the 2nd draft of the book, or so....

Although which each book, polishing as I write my initial draft becomes easier.

I can't wait to see where you go with this novel, so I'll be keeping up. And, I'll be reading Mistborn when it comes out next month.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 23, 2006, 09:02:25 AM
Whew.  Chapter Nine done.  

Wasn't ready for how much trouble THIS one gave me.  It should have gone more smoothly than it did.  I ran into troubles deciding exactly how I wanted to deal with Mab and Bluefingers as characters.

In the end, I think I'm going to cut Mab from all but that first chapter in the kitchens.  (i.e. she won't come join Siri on the ride to Hallandren.)  I'm not completely sure yet, but she really wasn't working in this chapter.  

Another change I'm going to make is using the title "Vessel" for Siri.  This is something I did in MYTHWALKER that I've decided that I still like.  Gives me a nice thing for them to call her that indicates not only her purpose in the Court, but that she's not really a part of their social structure.

If you want to read the failed attempts at this chapter, look in this file right here:

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh9failed.doc

However, if you want the real chapter, look on the list in the first post.  It's up there.  

Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 23, 2006, 11:05:05 AM
And look at that.  ANOTHER chapter.  Man.  I work too hard for you people.  I should, like, get paid for doing this or something.

Oh, wait...

Anyway, this is another Lightsong chapter.  Rough, rough draft, as always.  

Worried that I re-tread a little too much ground in this one.  However, I'm far more worried about chapter nine.  It's bound to have flow issues, and I still think it might not be dynamic enough.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock on June 23, 2006, 11:12:19 AM
You sir, are a workhorse. I wonder if we could put a plow to your back and see how the harvest turns out this year.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on June 23, 2006, 12:49:06 PM
I enjoyed Chapter Ten and the information it gave us about the religion and the petitioners.  The way miracles work (one and it kills you) makes me very interested in Lightsong's role in this story.  It looks like, despite his protests, that he's going to end up doing something heroic by the end -- and I'm very interested to see how he gets to that point, lazy as he is.

I also liked the second half of chapter nine -- especially the last few paragraphs where Siri sumarizes what her life is going to be like: lonely even while surrounded by people.

The first half of it didn't work so well for me.  A lot of momentum had been building up to that point, and then all of the anxiety was just gone.  Siri herself doesn't seem very concerned about the events.  The first thing she does is stand up and yawn.  She faces her irreverence of the night before with resigned calmness, and thinks everything's fine.  She assumes that she isn't being executed, but for all she knows, servants assigned to drag her to the block just aren't allowed inside the God King's room, and are waiting for her outside.  I'd be more concerned about her and the odd happenings of the previous night if Siri was a little more concerned for her own wellbeing at the start -- and then perhaps relaxes a little when she realizes she isn't going to die today.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 25, 2006, 12:12:44 AM
8- I like that the Returned go to Idris too. So, it's a widespread phenomenon? Interesting. But they can say farewell to their families? But the Hallendren Returned have no memory... Why? (You explain this a bit in 10, but it still seems like there is a difference--like the Idris ones know what they're there for. Or perhaps they're recognized by their family, which triggers their memory, while the Hallendren Returned are kept from their families on purpose?)

9- What is Mab doing?

Siri's life is rather unappealing at the moment.

Okay, I see in the failed version what's going on here. I don't disagree with  your decision. If Mab isn't an important enough character to accommodate, then it's best to get rid of her earlier as well.

I also echo Miriel's comments though. She doesn't seem very traumatized.

10- So was the goddess person one of the people who 20 years ago planned the treaty to return a Royal?

The miracles are quite interesting.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 27, 2006, 09:41:04 AM
Eleven is done, but not up yet.  I need to spellcheck it, and there is still something about it I want to tweak.

I talked this project over with my editor, and he thought it was a very good idea.  My agent, however, raised a very interesting objection--and probably not the one you're thinking about.

Joshua is VERY worried about people seeing unfinished, unpolished work.  He's concerned about first impressions--that people will see WARBREAKER in draft form, and then be biased and unconsciously consider all of my work sloppy by association.

I don't think his point is a strong as he makes it, but he is a very knowledgeable man when it comes to publishing.  I can see his point.  The truth is, even my drafts--which come out a little more clean than some people's because of the outlining I do--are very rough.  I'll need to change things, add foreshadowing, and cut a good 15% of the excess language (like always) before I publish this.  

Yet, a lot of visual artist publish 'in progress' works on their websites.  Sketches, working designs, mock ups.  Nobody judges their final work sloppy because of the early versions.  

What do you all think?  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on June 27, 2006, 10:19:30 AM
I can see there being a concern in that many people erroneously believe that writers always perform at the same level of writing, no matter what the situation. It's absolutley not true. No one writes perfectly or even consistantly all the time.

In fact, the best example I can think of are the English Professors at BYU who would turn in just horrible writing  for publication and then get all defensive when the editors made suggestions. If people did write perfectly all the time, then editors would be out of a job.

As for visual artists, well they usually only post the sketches and unfinish work they like. There are often hundreds of sketched that no one sees that are awful. Not to mention, since drawing is such an under-valued skill in our society, it doesn't take much to impress people.

Anyways, I would think the people who really get all out-of-sorts over a grammar error or style issue are probably not the type to be reading a self-published web-version of a book.  I could be wrong, but those types usually are fairly sheltered away from the rest of us.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Skar on June 27, 2006, 11:53:17 AM
I can see Joshua's objection being valid if the following happened:
Reader hears about you for the first time from a friend who read Elantris and is breathless for Mistborn.  Reader looks you up on the web and finds Warbreaker.  Doesn't realize what Warbreaker is, (roughdraft) and is disappointed and so never reads your stuff again and mercilessly mocks his friend for liking you.

The problem would be solved if the "reader" knew Warbreaker was a rough draft up front.  So, if there's no way he could read Warbreaker draft chapters without being informed as to their nature, there shouldn't be a problem.  All you'd have to do is put an explanation of the chapters nature at the beginning of each and every file you post.  Maybe you already do that?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: fuzzyoctopus on June 27, 2006, 01:15:01 PM
He does already do that from the files I've downloaded.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on June 27, 2006, 04:52:07 PM
As long as he's got that he should be fine, if anyone reads "This is an unfinished work in draft form" at the start of every chapter and judges the quality of the overall writing of EUOL from said chapters, then that person probably hate everything anyway and we don't care if he reads any of the other books.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on June 27, 2006, 06:13:32 PM
I think it really depends if you think this is generating you more fans than it could be loosing.  How have hits on this site increased since you started posting Warbreaker chapters?  I know for me, a newcomer, these chapters mean that I'm often on this site.  It's how I found out about the Mistborn pre-release, and now I'm bringing a friend.  I wouldn't discount your agent out of hand (no one likes that), but weigh costs and benefits.

I think it's also unlikely that this will be the first work of yours that someone reads.  I only found this forum through your website, and the first thing I did there was read Mistborn sample chapters.  Then I began exploring, wanting more.

Personally, I really like being able to read the Warbreaker chapters.  It's something I've never seen an author do before.  It's exciting to read a book as it's written, before it's published  (the really good story doesn't hurt, either), and exciting for me as a would-be-author to see a book developing from an author I respect.

I don't know if that was helpful, but as one of the new people here, I thought I'd offer a perspective from one of the masses who found out about this forum the way another potential reader might.

Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on June 27, 2006, 06:23:58 PM
Hard to tell the actual hit change since we moved servers right before this happened and the tracking software is different in how it determines hits.  I would say we're getting about 20%-25% more Unique visitors a day then before.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 27, 2006, 06:39:32 PM
It's hard for me to guess what the reactions of the average unconnected reader would be. But one thing I can say for sure is that large masses of people care extremely little about quality, and by putting your chapters up online you definitely won't put those people off any--as long as the story is good, it will be an excellent hook. And those who do care about quality are probably more likely to be aware of the different drafting and editing stages that go into making a finished book, so they'll be more likely to be forgiving.

Your current disclaimers might be made a little more explicit.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Fellfrosch on June 28, 2006, 01:25:39 AM
In my experience as a corporate writer, the trouble with writing is that everyone thinks they can write--no matter how good you are you're still just moving words around, and that's something the rest of the world has been doing since they learned how to talk. You don't get this problem with visual arts (or any other form of art) because people are not connected to the medium in the same way; they don't use sculpture to express themsevlves 16 hours a day, so they know that they don't understand it. Writing, on the other hand, is something that everyon always think they can do better (even if they don't admit it or even know it).
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Texxas on June 28, 2006, 01:38:34 AM
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Ookla.  Even among professionals who are supposed to be able to write (I'm talking about lawyers) the ones who can tell the difference between draft and final quality writing is small.  Even less of the general SF audience will discern a difference between your early draft quality and final draft; and far fewer will remember the difference when they get the published volume.  What they will detect are significant plot shifts. (Or if some shiny toy you flashed early on disappears in later versions because it didn't move the story.)  In that regard, I guess I'd be more concerned about how much I posted rather than the effect of posting early draft quality.  I think I might pull the chapters, after I really got rolling and felt I had solidified the early concepts.

FYI -- I really like the concepts here, i.e., the notion of breath and certain persons accumulating it for whatever purpose. This idea raises more questions for me than any other idea I've seen in the first 10 chapters.  And it seems to create the greatest potential for complexity and inconsistency.  I'm also fascinated to see how you work out what appears to be an LDS-influenced theme about resurrection as your work develops.  It always seems to me that the religious influence in a writer's life leads to the richest themes, especially when they are being explored thematically and intellectually, and not being espoused as dogma.  

GH
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 28, 2006, 08:35:28 AM
www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh11-1.0.doc

All,

Thank you much for the replies!  I'm going to, tentatively, continue posting these.  The truth is, I like doing it.  I want to offer interesting things on my website and on these forums.  Maybe I'll stop eventually, but for the moment, I'm going to keep going.  

Ookla,

I think you're right.  I need better disclaimers, both on my website and in the chapters themselves.  I've written a new one up, and pasted it on all of the chapters.

Texxas,

Interesting insight.  I personally like how the mythology of the writer has an effect on his/her fiction.  I do tend to deal with religious topics more often than some, though it's always been a goal of mine to explore rather than preach.  The most interesting viewpoints for me to write, in fact, are often those of people who believe differently from myself.  

All Again,

That said, chapter eleven is up!  I'll be doing an edit of the previous Siri chapters to make them in line with things in this one.  I like the concept of Siri having to spend a week in the palace, unable to leave.  It allows me to pace things better.  Also, I'm going to take your suggestions and increase the tension in the previous Siri chapter (when she wakes up after that first night).  My plan is to point out (as I do in this chapter) that extending the tension, knowing that the God King is going to take her eventually, is even worse than just getting things over with.

Chapter twelve is also done--I'll probably get it up tonight.  Maybe even the edit of the previous chapter I've been talking about.

Cheers.

Brandon
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 28, 2006, 09:30:04 AM
And, chapter 12 is up.

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh12-1.0.doc

I worry that I might need to move this one forward a little bit.  We haven't seen Vivenna for quite a while.  Yet, it is also nice to let us focus on Siri and Lightsong for a while before introducing Vivenna as a serious viewpoint.

The balance between making her competent and completely out of her league is a tough one to strike in this chapter.  Too in control, and she wouldn't be sympathetic at all (though I don't expect her to be able to match Siri for raw likeability).  Yet, too much out of control, and we don't have enough of a division between her character and Siri's.  

What do you think?  Do they feel different enough?  Do you want to see this earlier, or is it good here?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on June 29, 2006, 11:12:10 AM
www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh13-1.0.doc

Lucky number 13.  What do you guys think about the short Siri scene in the middle?  Stand out too much?  Too simple?  I wanted to break the Vivenna sections apart for some reason--felt like a good pacing move--but now I'm not certain on the Siri section.  

I'm kind of planning this to be the end of 'Section One' at least in my mind.  I tend to break books apart into chunks so that I can approach outlining in a useful way.  So, with ths, the 'introduce characters' chunk is done.

However, if I officially 'Part One' it, then the Siri scene stands out even more.  Maybe I need to cut it and move it to another section.  Put something else here?  Her waking up?  Then I can launch the beginning of part two with the first view of court, and Siri's being presented before them.

Ah, look.  Now I've talked myself into it.  Responses?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on June 29, 2006, 12:58:11 PM
I've really enjoyed the Vivena chapters.  The humor with the mercenaries, Peprin, and Vivena herself.  I think the balance you talked about between "competent" and "out of her legue" are also dead-on.  I really like her -- I think she may be my favorite.  

As for the Siri scene, I didn't find it distracting to be in the middle of the chapter.  It was short, simple, and gave a glimpse at what Vivena is trying to save.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 01, 2006, 09:21:32 AM
Okay, I collected Ch1-13 into a single file, to make it easier to download.  I also did another revision of chapter one in this version.  So, if you want to watch my editing process, take the old chapter one you have and do a compare documents with this chapter one.  I just tweaked a few worldbuilding elements, such as removing the fact that it was 'impossible' for Vasher to enhance colors.

I also posted chapter fourteen.  Note that I cut out the Siri section from chapter thirteen and started this chapter with it.  There is a NEW Siri section in chapter thirteen, and you can find it in the collected Part One group.  It's about the same length, but has a slightly different tone.  I wanted to put off mentioning her going to court until the next chapter, so that part one tied off a little bit better.

I plan to do a complete read through of Part One eventually, correcting for consistancy (Mab the cook and Siri having to remain in isolation for seven days are both things that have to be reworked in the earlier chapters.)

Thanks for the comments!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 04, 2006, 10:04:25 AM
Whew!  15 is up.  I need to go to bed.

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh15-1.0.doc

A few changes in this one.  First, I'm not going to have Awakeners or Returned glow, even to those with the First Heightening.  I decided I need to be careful not to let this book stray too much toward feeling like ELANTRIS, since both books contain pseudo-deities that live among the people.  I like having Breath simply create more color around a person, and that being the indication.

Secondly, a small change.  Instead of referencing books she's read, I'm going to have Vivenna reference tutoring she's received.  I've read--and written--the book learned archetype too often. This is a subtle change, but a good one for being in line with Vivenna's character, I think.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 19, 2006, 03:04:26 AM
Chapters Sixteen and Seventeen, written during my Honeymoon during small spaces of time.  Enjoy!

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh16-1.0.doc
www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh17-1.0.doc
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: thelsdj on July 19, 2006, 06:23:45 AM
Congrats on the wedding!

Great to get some more chapters too, still enjoying it!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: thelsdj on July 19, 2006, 06:34:23 AM
The last line of chapter 17, is it supposed to be cryptic to Siri and/or the reader? He could be trying to make her paranoid. He could be giving a genuine warning. He could be trying to comfort her, saying not to let the politics of the court get to her.

Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 19, 2006, 04:15:32 PM
Yeah, that last line is bugging me too.  Nice catch.  

I'm not sure what I want it to mean yet.   :-/  If you have suggestions for alternates, let me know.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 22, 2006, 01:58:36 PM
Okay, so I've started reading the chapters that have been posted. Yes, I'm a slacker on so many levels.

My first impression is: Rainbow Brite done as a greek tragedy.

I don't mean to imply that I think it's childish, unsophisticalted, or unjoyable. In fact, I like it well enough. The whole Rainbow Brite image just came to mind and I haven't been able to get it out of my head.

So I'm still reading. I think mostly I just wished things moved a little faster.

Also, BioChroma seems like a new brand of organic camera film. The word biochrome gets used a lot for various applications.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: fuzzyoctopus on July 22, 2006, 11:57:14 PM
I don't know, Rainbow Brite was an alien sent to colonize a colorless world and it seems like the other way around (i.e. - the princesses are going from a colorless world to one FULL of color)   I'm amused by the image, but can't think of them that way.   :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 23, 2006, 12:37:38 AM
So Warbreaker is the story of Rainbow Brite after she gets corrupted to the dark side, becoming a terrible and evil goddess.

Yup, power corrupts. That's the message here. She just should have said no to that little gold ring when that rather strange kid offered it to her.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 23, 2006, 12:51:30 PM
So I just read chapter 7 and feel like I need to make more comments from the peanut gallery.

<SPOILER rant>
Siri seemed off in this chapter. I can understand her wanting to remained composed during the ordeal, but honestly, most women would be reduced to a curled-up ball of crying mush at many of the points that happen in this chapter. Getting married off to some guy you don't know is traumatizing enough. Getting married to some terrible, ominous god-figure would be devastating. As is, it seems more like Siri is getting ready for a blind-date that was set-up by her mother which she has kindly accepted just to make her happy.

In the context you've established, shouldn't this scene be more like Siri is going to be sacrificed to demonic, giant ape? It seems like there should have been a point when Siri just looses it. (My preference would be at the point when she discovers that she can't talk to her husband ever.) I can just see this image of Siri bravely trying not to cry but tears rolling down her face. Her hair starts turning gray, then is grows really long and goes limp. Then Siri just collapses into a trembling heap while the servants look on mournful yet completely detached.

There just isn't a sense of helplessness that is appropriate for the context of the situation. Siri may admire the beauty of the gown presented her, but more likely she should be too emotionally torn to really care about such banal things.

Also the servants are too much like automatons. They should show some sympathy, yet are still distant and powerless.
</SPOILER rant>

That's just my suggestion for your consideration.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 23, 2006, 06:36:10 PM
42,

Good points, both of them, and well presented.  I've been thinking a lot about that chapter, and I think your comments put me over the edge.  She IS off in that chapter.  It needs more of exactly what you just pointed out.  (In fact, that may be the most 'off' chapter in the book so far.)

Good eye, and much thanks.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: stacer on July 23, 2006, 10:37:28 PM
I haven't had time to read any of it, but from a woman's point of view, I would rather do ANYTHING than cry in front of people who are putting me in a situation that makes me feel ready to cry. I might feel like it inside and even possibly look/feel off on the outside, but I wouldn't fall apart until after leaving the room.

Then I'd go to the bathroom, kick my shoes off so that they dent the ceiling, and hope my girlfriends were there comforting me so I didn't punch a hole in the wall. (Yes, this has happened in real life.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 24, 2006, 12:17:59 AM
Quote
I haven't had time to read any of it, but from a woman's point of view, I would rather do ANYTHING than cry in front of people who are putting me in a situation that makes me feel ready to cry. I might feel like it inside and even possibly look/feel off on the outside, but I wouldn't fall apart until after leaving the room.

Then I'd go to the bathroom, kick my shoes off so that they dent the ceiling, and hope my girlfriends were there comforting me so I didn't punch a hole in the wall. (Yes, this has happened in real life.)


That's how I see Siri reacting a couple chapters earlier. Chapter 7 seems to be when things have gotten worse than that. Plus, in the context of chapter 7 she has no friends and doesn't have the option of being alone. Plus, she's been depicted as a rather emotional person, so it would be consistant to have a emotional outburst at some point. Not multiple outbursts, just one after she can't repress the hopelessness of her situation any longer. Then of course, the characters on the sideline will have to berate her for losing composure (optional depiction).

Course there is the alternative that she could fly into a furious rage. But that seems like it would get her killed or at least it should get her killed.

It seems like characters like Bluefinger are actually trying to break her down.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 24, 2006, 11:58:07 PM
So more commentary from your friendly, neighorhood critic:

Just finished chapter 10. I liked the people lining-up to petition Lightsong. It could have been a longer scene, with a little more build-up. Maybe include a couple more petitions, so that the reader can make a comparison of the mother and baby's situation to those of the other petitioners. Maybe intersperse more of Lightsongs thoughts in during the petitions.

Generally speaking, I would like the Lightsong scenes to be shorter. He just isn't peaking my interest yet. Although I'm a little curious as to his purpose in the story. I just feel that I'm trudging through his scenes to get to the important stuff.

Question: do all the gods have a name that would be more befitting a My Little Pony? Have you been secretly playing the My Little Pony RPG?

Also, regarding names. Bluefingers the Anal is way to modern and Freudian. Maybe something like Bluefingers the Spider or Bluefingers the Beaver?

So, I guess those are all really minor critiques.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 26, 2006, 04:17:55 PM
Chapter 18 is up.

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh18-1.0.doc
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 26, 2006, 06:06:54 PM
Yay, more chapters.

So I just finished reading Part 1.

I like that you brought back Vivenna, although it took me a bit to remember who she was. I was thinking about this, and I think part of this was because it has been a lot of chapters since we've last seen her. Along those lines I was trying to thinking when a better point would be to bring her back into the story. Speculatively, between what is now chapters 7 and 8 would be a great place to put your current chapter 12. Mostly because I love a good cliffhanger (even if they do keep you reading much longer than you have time to read).

Just a thought.

And while I'm thinking about it I have some questions about your setting. Where are these people get all their colorful clothing and other items? Before 1856 and the first chemical dyes, people had to rely on natural pgments that are short lived and difficult to manufacture. Natural pigments are typically less intense than chemical pigments. Natural piments also have a much, much smaller spectrum of hues than chemical pigments. So, assuming they don't have some mystical way of producing intensely hued dyes, who is making all these colors? They probably are exrtemely wealthy, conisdering the cultural importance, and they probably are oppressing hundred (thousands) of people (serfs, slaves, whatever) to maintain their pigment empire.

Just thinking a bit. I'll try not to do that so much.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 26, 2006, 06:23:51 PM
Nah, 42, that's a very good comment.  I think more people--particularly fantasy readers--will be aware of the realities of textile dying than you think.

I need a very good explanation for this.  I think having it set in a rainforest gives me some leeway, but I'll definitely need a worldbuilding reason to let all of these colors be in place.  More than that, they all need to be relatively cheap, since even the common people can afford them.  I'm leaning toward crushed flower petals.  

I do want to do more with the pigment trade.  I'm going fast enough on this book that I know I'm going to need to enhance the worldbuilding just a bit when I go through a rewrite.  

And, interesting suggestion on Vivenna.  I wasn't certain how long I wanted to leave her out, since she's a character as equally important as the other two.  (Perhaps more so.)  I'll look at sticking the chapter in where you say.  I just have to juggle time factors and the like.  

Thanks for the comments.  Very useful.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 26, 2006, 09:40:25 PM
Flower Petals is acceptable. You would need either a whole lot of flower variety, or one magical flower that provides a lot of different colors.

Still not as cool as if they were extracting the colors pigments from the black blood of satanic children.

Either way, a scene or two explaining where they get their pigments and answering how much of a burden the pigment trade is on the populous would be nice.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on July 27, 2006, 11:55:13 AM
I just finished chapter eighteen, and I have a small comment.  My favorite part of chapter sixteen was where Siri thinks about how Hallandren isn't as bad as she'd thought it would be, there's a scene break, and Vivena thinks about how much more horrid Halladren is than she imagined.  It made me think and compare Siri and Vivena and wonder about who really would do a better job, and what things would have looked like with Vivena as queen.  

Then chapter eighteen has the line, "The frightening truth was, should she have been sent to become the God King’s bride, she would have turned out as ineffective and confused as poor Siri undoubtedly was."

This felt final to me: question answered.  Vivena would have done much the same, no better, no worse.  With a conclusion reached, the need to compare them and think about how things would be different dies.  And that was a feature of this draft that I was really enjoying up to chapter eighteen.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 27, 2006, 01:55:14 PM
So you're suggesting that question be drawn out instead of answered?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 27, 2006, 06:44:03 PM
Just finished chapter 14 and while I think it is a perfect chapter, the voices in my head (one in particular) have some questions.

Thinking about Vivenna and Lemk. Not entirely sure if Vivenna's excuses for not taking Lemk's Beadths are in the right order. It seems like her relenting needs to be a little more dramatic. I guess I wasn't convinced about her reasonsto take them or Lemk's reason's to give them in the end. I think the arguments may not be connecting as well as they could.

Also, taking that many breadths, wouldn't that make Vivenna kind of manic?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on July 27, 2006, 08:41:52 PM
I appreciate the voices, though I will ask for clarification.  Did they mean the reason Vivenna chose to keep the Breaths, or the reason she took them in the first place?

I meant for it to be unwilling whether you take Breaths.  Lemks gave them to her, and she didn't have any choice but to let them come into her.  If that isn't clear, it needs a rewrite.

Or, are you worried about why she kept them?  If that's the case, then I need a better argument there.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on July 27, 2006, 10:41:47 PM
Ookla, in response to your question...I guess so.  There's a lot going on, and a lot of unanswered questions.  Who knows what would have been better? (For example, dieties like Blushweaver would be a lot less paranoid without Siri there -- maybe the war would have come slower if they got what they expected?)  To have it stated as fact instead of "Vivena thought that..." was just jarring to me, like a sudden declaration from heaven (because who but the author can really know at this point what would have worked out best?).  And since it distracted me, I mentioned it.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on July 28, 2006, 12:22:38 AM
Rereading the end of chapter 13, I think I see where my confusion lies. (Not that I'm not always confused, but bear with my moment of foggy lucidity.)

I can see that Vivenna is appalled by the idea of taking breadths. And I can see that Lemk wants to give her his breadths as a way of cleansing his soul. What kills the moment is the mercenaries talking about how much breadths are worth. It makes a very secular/practical argument to what should be a very moral/spiriual moment. Thus, it greatly diminishes Vivenna's stance that the bartering of breadths is immoral when she wantonly falls into the position of bartering. It seems strange that Vivenna would find the trafficking of breadths to be so abhorent, then start thinking about on to who else Lemk could barter the breadth.

As is, this implies that Vivenna had at least some choice. She could have just run away from Lemk at that moment. The needing info/codes/passwords thing is kind of a weak reason. (again secular reasoning vs moral imperative)

I think your trying to show how useful the breadths would be to Vivenna's mission, which I feel might be better placed after Lemk gives the breadth to an unwilling Vivenna. It could possibly be placed before they meet Lemk, as a way of foreshadowing.

Either way, it would be clearer if Lemk just grabs Vivenna and gives her the breadths. No chance to pass it off to sommeone else. No chance for Vivenna to refuse.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: demented_yam on July 28, 2006, 05:02:48 PM
two things i don't like about the beginning:

you start off with a character in CH1 that (to me at least) is a lot more interesting than any of the other characters (except possibly Lightsong), then we never see him again.


another thing: I like the contrast between Hallendren and Bevalis, but the juxtaposition would be much greater is we had more of a chance to get to know Bevalis

I think (and i'm just throwing this out here) the story should start in Bevalis, from Vivena's POV.  That gives us a chance to get to know not only the city, but Vivena's mindset, and we start out seeing the drab, uninteresting world of Bevalis.

it shoud then move on to Siri's POV, showing Bevalis from the POV of someone who really doesn't fit in there.

Our first view of Hallendren should be through Siri's eyes, not through Vasher's.

The impact of seeing the city for the first time is lessened because not only have we already seen it through Vasher's eyes, but we haven't seen enough of Bevalis to contrast.

Giving us a look of Bevalis through Vivena's eyes does a few things: it shows us the city, increasing the contrast when we enter Hellendren.  It gives us a chance to get a background on the situation between the kingdoms, and provides us with an idea of the political tensions.


Now, if Vasher's escape is very plot important, it can either be shifted to after we've already seen Hallendren, or it can be told from another POV altogether.  For example, we could learn of it during a conversation between Lightsong and one of his priests (perhaps Llarimar is the priest that Vasher punched? they would have a conversation about Llarimar's black eye, and Llarimar would tell him of the aftermath of the breakout)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 28, 2006, 09:43:12 PM
So...you're suggesting it start out boring, in a drab, uninteresting place? And you expect people to keep reading?

I'm not saying you don't have valid points, but consider the point of a prologue.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: demented_yam on July 29, 2006, 01:53:58 PM
true...

but Starting in Hallendren loses a lot of the impact of the entrance scene later.


perhaps the prologue could be told decades earlier: when the revolution took place and the monarchy was exiled.

that would give us a background of the political situation, start off in exciting and important times, and still keep the look and feel of modern Hallendren hidden.  (I assume that the flamboyant decor is the result of the new pantheon of gods, and did not exist when the old monarchy was in power?)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on July 30, 2006, 12:05:52 AM
I feel like I need to disagree with you, demented_yam.  Starting with the old war, and the exile of the Royals...it's backstory.  If I read it in chapter one, I wouldn't care.  It's only as the history affects the life of the main characters (that I do care about) that I want to hear the history.  A disguised info-dump at the begining...too many fantasy novels have that fault.  I like the way in Warbreaker that the history and politics is dribbled out, chapter by chapter, as it becomes relevant.  This was one of the things that I loved about Elantris: the prologue was short, exciting to read, and the first chapter wasn't a lecture.  That alone made me excited to read it: I knew I was in for something good.  That's my 2 cents on the matter, anyway.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: demented_yam on July 30, 2006, 03:31:59 AM
Those are just suggested solutions to a problem that I see:  the scene where Siri comes to Hallendren loses its impact for two reasons:

1) We've already seen Hallendren, so while Siri is experiencing it for the first time, the rest of us are already 'been there, done that' and we don't really experience the dramatic reveal that we're supposed to.

2) We haven't seen enough of Bevalis to contrast.  we know that Siri has been living in this drab world all her life, dreaming of something better, but the rest of us have colors aplenty, and we don't see the experience the way she does.  Give us at least another chapter is Bevalis.  Soaking in a warm bath just makes the bucket of ice water seem that much colder.


The best comparison I can draw is the movie 'the wizard of OZ'

the first part of the movie is all in black&white, and then it switches to color when she comes to OZ.  now, while the real world isn't quite as drab as dorothy's, the visual message that we get when we go from shades of grey to the beautiful land of OZ matches exactly to what dorothy's experiencing: a strange and wonderful new land.

Now, if we had spent the first five minutes of the movie with the scarecrow, and then switched to doroth's story, the scene where The house lands, and dorothy sets her eyes on OZ loses its impact because we've already seen it.  Dorothy might be stunned by this new world, but the rest of us have already been here, and while dorothy is left gasping, the audience would just be waiting for her to get over it and move on, instead of gasping alongside her.

Take it as you wish, but I think that giving us a sneak peek of Hallendren through Vasher's eyes makes Siri's entrance a wasted scene.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: 42 on August 01, 2006, 01:58:35 AM
So I finished reading chapters 15 and 16.

Not a whole lot to say. I was wondering if it was really necessary to seperate Siri's storyline in chapter 15. Not sure if it would make a big difference other than you would have one less break.

I'm also wondering if your number values are a little inflated with the number of breaths people are holding. 500 breaths, that's like a small high school. The king having two breaths a day for 50 years is 36,500 breadths, or a little more than the population of Liechtenstein or roughly a third of the population of Paris in 1500 A.D.

It seems as though almost everyone who isn't a priest or returned must have given up their breaths. That would make for one rather sick society.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: demented_yam on August 01, 2006, 03:31:01 PM
Quote
So I finished reading chapters 15 and 16.

Not a whole lot to say. I was wondering if it was really necessary to seperate Siri's storyline in chapter 15. Not sure if it would make a big difference other than you would have one less break.

I'm also wondering if your number values are a little inflated with the number of breaths people are holding. 500 breaths, that's like a small high school. The king having two breaths a day for 50 years is 36,500 breadths, or a little more than the population of Liechtenstein or roughly a third of the population of Paris in 1500 A.D.

It seems as though almost everyone who isn't a priest or returned must have given up their breaths. That would make for one rather sick society.


don't forget that you've got an entire pantheon of gods (thirty or so, was it?) who take one breath a day.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on August 01, 2006, 03:43:55 PM
So Wikipedia says that Warbreaker is Creative Commons, which I don't think is true since it says that no where on his sample chapters or website.  Then again this is wikipeida and as we know with them it's only matter of convincing a majority it's true regardless of the actual facts.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060801-7396.html
Quote

Last night, Stephen Colbert aired a segment on Wikipedia in which he discussed "wikiality," the process of creating the reality one wants to believe in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Sanderson
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 01, 2006, 04:06:30 PM
Sprig, I've mentioned on my site making it creative commons, Sprig.  I need to throw up the copyright, but this is generally what you do when you release a book on your website.  

42, you're dead on.  I need to make this one breath a week for the regular gods, then 2 for the God King.

500 in a regular person, however, doesn't strike me as being as much of a problem.  I imagine there being great heritages of Breath being passed down.  When someone who has fifty Breath gets close to death, you can bet that his family urges him to pass it on before he goes.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Skar on August 01, 2006, 04:47:29 PM
This is the oddest thread to catch the end of...  ???
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on August 01, 2006, 04:51:36 PM
You know Creative Commons doesn't add anything to copyrights?  It's actually a joke among copyright people from what I've read:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1838249,00.asp

Quote

Years ago, to gain a copyright, you had to fill out a form and send in the material to the Library of Congress. Now you just use the word "copyright," add your name and a date, and publish it. What could be easier? Apparently simplicity was more than some people could handle, so they invented Creative Commons to add some artificial paperwork and complexity to the mechanism. And it seems to actually weaken the copyrights you have coming to you without Creative Commons. Oh, brother!

Will this nonsense ever end?


Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on August 01, 2006, 05:06:49 PM
Quote
This is the oddest thread to catch the end of...  ???

I assume you were talking about my deleted post, which I removed since I was talking about one type of CC license while I wasn't sure which on EUOL had decided upon using (there's like 4-5 I guess).  The thing about it is it seams silly to CC it when all you have to do is put Copyright 2006 Brandon Sanderson, you're free to distribute this document in it's entity only. Or something like that, hence my posting of the above article.  CC is just some internet fad that people who never spend 10 minutes googling copyright laws think are necessary.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 01, 2006, 05:16:28 PM
No, actually, I think that the article misses the point of the Creative Commons.

A CC copyright license is intended to be something that GIVES UP copyright privileges.  You simply have to say "Copyright Brandon Sanderson" to make something copyrighted.  However, if you want people to be free to download, copy, and distribute your work, you use the Creative Commons copyright--which lets you give away some rights, but not others.  

It's not a silly thing, and it's actually quite important.  If I write Copyright Brandon Sanderson people CAN NOT distribute the piece without breaking the law.  If I put it under the creative commons, then I'm allowing them to--but only under certain circumstances.  

The pcmag guy has no idea what he's talking about.  The CC is for people who want to give their work away for free, and get rid of some of the implied copyright they're given whether they want it or not by the copyright office.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on August 01, 2006, 05:24:51 PM
But you can write Copyright brandon sanderson then say what the terms are for distribution (and hence it's not illegal), creative commons is a fix for a problem that doesn't exist.

And yet with CC you're stuck with it no matter what so even after it's published people still have the rights to distribute it since you cannot rescind CC.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 01, 2006, 05:55:56 PM
If you give terms for distribution, you're doing exactly what the CC did.  All they are, Sprig, is terms for distribution.

I don't take exception to your disagreeing with CC because of its limitations.  It's the fact that you call it silly, using a poorly-researched opinion article as your support, when other newspapers--the Washington post, for instance--have lauded the move.  It was not created by people who know nothing about copyright law.  It was founded by a professor of law at Stanford, for heaven's sake!

If you want to release something for free, yet want to retain some of your legal rights, it's the simplest and easiest way.  Sure, you could come up with your own allowances for distribution, but they would be much more difficult to uphold in court.  Plus, why re-invent the wheel?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on August 01, 2006, 06:23:41 PM
CC is reinventing the wheel, and how is it simpler to go through all the CC registration and adding their text and code over typing out your own.  And I doubt your own created distribution text would stand up any worse the CC would.

No one has yet to list a reason why using CC over regular copyright is better.  All the stuff on the web make it sound better but once you get down to it if there's no difference why do you need CC besides to inflate some Stanford Professor's ego or do you now like to hang around the internet trying to claim you're cool like all the other people mindlessly using it?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 01, 2006, 06:52:21 PM
How is it easier to add theirs as opposed to typing my own?  Sprig, it's simple.  I DON'T HAVE TO TYPE MY OWN.  I can let people smarter than I am in these areas deal with it, and I can just slap the CC license on and not have to worry.  Yes, it's lazy--in the same way that buying my burger is lazy compared to killing my own cow, grinding the meat, and cooking it on my own.

CC has been tested in courts, has proven wildly popular with people who have been offering their work for free, and gives me peace of mind.  Plus, I look at it this way.

On one side:

Spriggan, suggesting that you ignore the lawyers whom you pay to pay attention to things like this--and calling you mindless for listening to their advice.

On the other side:

Tor/St. Martin's Legal Department, your editor, and the president of the company all suggesting that it would be more legally sound to go with the cc license.  

Hum....


Regardless, this is a thread to deal with comments on the chapters of WARBREAKER, not a place to argue about the copyright issues.  Sprig, I'd be happy to continue the conversation if you wish to make a new thread.  

Otherwise, let there be new Warbreaker!  I will post another chapter soon--either tonight or tomorrow.  Huzzah!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 02, 2006, 05:42:28 PM
And, after a bit of a diversion, we have:

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh19-1.0.doc

Chapter Nineteen!

For future reference, I'll be posting these one a week on Wednesdays for the next few weeks.  I've recently gotten the MISTBORN 2 manuscript back from Tor for editing, and the ALCATRAZ manuscript is on its way from Scholastic.  That means I'll have very little time for WARBREAKER in the next couple of weeks.  You'll get at least one new chapter a week, however.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: demented_yam on August 03, 2006, 01:26:22 AM
I just got to the part before the cut to Lightsong's half of the chapter.

Hilarious!!!  ;D :D ;D

[edit]finished the chapter.

Lightsong is definitely shaping up well.  His reluctance to get involved in his own religionis particularly interesting, and I think this is the first hit you've given us to his past, which i really want to hear more of.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Dominique Demille on August 03, 2006, 04:13:59 PM
Ah if only all published writing were as good as your rough drafts Brandon, I would never lack for anything to read. There are a few things that I would like to comment on though. I was a little put off by Vasher opening the world. It jumped right into it, but left me a bit confused. So far he is the least developed of any of the characters I believe, and so even at this point I can't say I like him being the opener.

I agree with the previous poster who said you lose something by introducing people to a world vibrant with color and then taking them to a world of drab. Or perhaps the drab just isn't fixated upon enough. I think the flower should draw more disapproval and perhaps anger than it does, with perhaps some more explanation as to why the disapproval is so strong.

Also, if you intend to cut Mab out entirely, you need to make her seem like a less important character than she does at the beginning. I don't like this option, so perhaps I can present another. Siri is supposed to be alone, but I think Mab would create another excellent contrast to Vevenna, if the cook could find her way to the princess. I would hate to lose such a good character as Mab.

Again, there needs to be more Vasher. He doesn't make sense right now. I don't see his place in the story at all. So far he is the only one not in any way linked to the others, except that he was watching Vivenna at court, which in and of itself is confusing. I'm sure it will all be explained in due time, and perhaps it is just my frustration with only getting to read one wonderful chapter at a time that I feel the explanation is a little slow in the making. At the very least, perhaps its time to see more of Vasher?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Loryn on August 07, 2006, 11:01:47 PM
I agree that Vasher is not in the story very much so far.  But I do like the thought of Breath.  Very clever.  

And what does happen to Mab?  She just disappears.

Other than that I think that it is a great story!  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on August 08, 2006, 12:17:32 AM
I think I agree with Loryn; I miss mab :'(, Anywayz, when can we expect to find out why the heck Vasher was watching Vivena? I'm expecting some answers on Wednesday, of course.
I also sympathize with the people saying that Vasher's view point at the Prolouge throws a wrench in later chapters. However, many writers seem to like using a certain viewpoint for only a chapter, including me so...
I should probably stop typing before I massacre a whole page.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: BarbaraJ on August 08, 2006, 11:33:40 AM
Hi!  I just wanted to say I've been reading Warbreaker and am loving it.  The concept is great and the characters are all compelling.

I don't think there's too little Vasher yet.  There are so many mysterious things still, he is one more part of the mystery.  The prologue let us know that *something* big is going on, and there's enough other stuff going on now, I'm ready to wait to find out what.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 08, 2006, 12:34:19 PM
Thank you, all, for the comments.  It is very useful for me to sit here, like a fly on the wall, watching as you discuss the book.  

However, I would like to respond to Mab.  I'm sorry to have to cut her.  I'm pretty sure that, in the rewrite, I'll have to take her out of all of the book save for the first Siri chapter.

There are a couple of reasons I did this.  The main one is that I was just having too much trouble trying to work her into the story.  Where would she and the guards stay in the palace?  What purpose would they serve?  How would I juggle the people Siri needs to grow to know with the ones she already does know?

In the end, I realized that I just had too many characters fighting for space in the Siri chapters--particularly since she spends a good portion of her chapters locked up in the God King's bed chamber.  Mab was fun, but she was distracting from the real plot.  In addition, she acted as kind of a 'safety net' for Siri--something familiar to hold onto.  Because of that, she had to be cut.  The emotional impact of Siri's story depends upon her feeling isolated at the beginning.  (Which, by the way, is why I also added the concept of her having to spend a week sequestered in the palace following her wedding.)

Hope that helps!  Also, I hope it doesn't ruin the story too much to see my behind-the-scenes theorizing about the writing process.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 09, 2006, 04:54:29 PM
As promised, here's the new chapter:

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh20-1.0.doc

I sometimes worry that I go a little TOO far with the dialogue in this book.  The latter books of MISTBORN didn't have as much humor as I often like to use, since it didn't feel appropriate for the tone of the book.  So, as a reaction, I think that WARBREAKER has an unusually large number of quick-tongued characters who say amusing things.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Shir Hashirim on August 09, 2006, 05:43:59 PM
I like it.  It's not overly odd or cliche and I have yet to roll my eyes, so I think it's all good.  It reminds me a little of Aaron Allston's work with the X-wing novels and how he had his characters interact.  Maybe some people don't like it, but that's their problem. I find it rather enjoyable.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: demented_yam on August 09, 2006, 09:34:09 PM
One thing about thie latest chapter:

Part of their plans involves raiding caravans so that they can't support a possible war.

This is probably the worst way to go about preventing a war that I can imagine.

Even if the raids on the caravan are not linked directly with them, the rulers of the city could easily do so anyway.

raiding caravans leaves the priests open to blaming it on the 'rebels', and that will just anger the citizens of the city further.

"We raid merchant caravans," Denth said. "Hit them at the right time, try and burn things up, cost them a bunch.  That ought to confuse people in the city quite a bit, make it more difficult for the priests to gain momentum for the war."

all the priests have to do is blame the loss of supplies on their enemies, and they can push the people into a war with this as an excuse.

"Priests run a lot of the trade in the city," Tonk Fah added.  "They have all the money, so they tend to own the supplies.  Burn away a lot of the things they intended to use for warfare supplies, and maybe they'll be more hesitant to attack."

It won't make them hesitant to attack, it will make them more willing.  if they start losing supplies, they will just be more desparate to end the threat sooner.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Loryn on August 10, 2006, 01:27:20 AM
I understand you taking Mab out when Siri goes to the city.  She was kind of piontless.  But I did like her as the cook so keep her there.  

I also did not think that you are going overboard with the dialoge.  I like humor and quick tongued characters.  I will tell you if I get annoyed okay.

Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: digitalbias on August 10, 2006, 04:48:27 PM
Right off the bat, I have to admit that I'm just starting to read the Warbreaker chapters. I'm almost done with "part 1" and have to admit that cutting out Mab was a very good idea, however there are a few things that will have to be changed if you cut her out:

I think her help with the introduction to the city and some of the customs and Lifeless were helpful. Maybe an escort for the trip, who then has to return to her father? A merchant on his way that her father has asked to travel with her? Anyway, somebody who has been there before who can introduce us as well as Siri to the city for the first time is still a useful character.

Also, I think you need to have more scenes with Vasher throughout the story. More build up for him. I love Nightblood...Reminds me of the old AD&D days when you had a lot more intelligent swords. Also hints at the whole Elric thing...a bloodthirsty sword. Frankly, I look forward to his scenes the most, and I've only read two with him in them.

I don't have a problem with the Siri coming into the city part at all, but I think I'd emphasize it more. Give more detail on her reactions and how it hurts the eyes or gives her a headache looking at the riot of color.

Finally, in chapter 7, the paragraph beginning with "The servants surrounded her like an honor guard..." was the first time I remember reading about the modest/immodest clothing between the two countries and when I finished reading the paragraph I was still confused at why it was immodest.

That's all for now.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 10, 2006, 06:26:27 PM
Digitalbias,

Wonderful comments!  Thank you!  

The reaction to Vasher has been so good that I'm thinking of adding a few more of his viewpoints into the early part of the book.  I intend to use him a lot more by the end.  Keep reading, let me know what you think, and then during the rewrite I'll see if I can find more places for him.  I think you'll understand better what I'm doing once you reach the place where he comes into the plot more.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Loryn on August 11, 2006, 01:11:17 AM
Hey Brandon I got alittle bit confused in chapter 15 when vivenna was entering the stadium and she was thinking about the aruas of the men at the doors.  

This is what was writen:  " The same thing happened to people who came close to Siri, but her aura was even stronger."  

Did you really mean Vivenna or did you mean that Siri had BioChromatic Breath too?  

Plus I really like how you keep sneaking cherries into the story.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 11, 2006, 02:03:39 PM
Oops!  Yes, that was supposed to Vivenna.  One of the problems with writing sisters are protagonists.  I gets a little confuzed sometimes.

I keep expecting to see a "Vin" pop up instead of a "Vivenna."  Should have stayed away from "V" names I think....
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on August 11, 2006, 02:11:48 PM
You should make Vivenna like caned sausages. mmmm....Vivenna Sausages.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on August 12, 2006, 12:31:42 PM
I just read chapters 19 and 20.  I had a little bit of trouble following Siri's thoughts at the begining of 19: this part of the prose seemed more jumbled.  The scene following it...hilarious.  I really like the way the God-King character is turning out.  The possibility that he's frightened and not as in control as everyone thinks makes him very interesting -- even likable.

I was happy to see more mentioning of Awakening in chapter 20.  I was fascinated by Vasher's use of magic in the first chapter, and I've been hoping to see more of it ever since.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: GLE on August 16, 2006, 01:19:27 PM
Just wut the world needs... more canned sausages! Sprig you should make them. you could earn millions!!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 16, 2006, 02:56:21 PM
For those of you who wanted more Vasher:

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh21-1.0.doc
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: digitalbias on August 16, 2006, 04:44:23 PM
I just finished chapter 18. I like the way the story is progressing, and like the hints of things to come, however I think the last scene in chapter 18 needs something more.

The conversation between Siri and Lightbringer felt rushed, which doesn't seem to suit Lightbringer at all. Seems like he'd be just as happy to spend the time watching Siri and checking his opinion on her as he would with Blushweaver.  Why take the effort to go back when he could nible on treats and befuddle Siri?

Also, I understood the whole grape metaphor but it felt forced ... but then maybe that was the point.

Anyway, I'll keep the comments coming and I'm looking forward to catching up.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on August 16, 2006, 10:27:30 PM
 I have to say, I'm sorry, EUOL, but this chapter was kind of an anticlimax for me :'( I had just been waiting for some Vasher, but all that happened was that we find out that the preists are hiding something!
Otherwise, you are the best writer of fiction i've read in a while. ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on August 20, 2006, 05:42:34 PM
To sound every inch the hypocrite, I reread the chapter, and found it better then when I just breezed through it.

Also, since it seems to be my Sunday to hate people,
whoever posted the random thread needs hung out and shot!!!!
 ::EDIT:: Sorry GLE, but that post kinda annoyed me, because I had just lost to that evil steward.....
Anyway, I believe that I should start posting like you do.  I'd be an InkDryer no longer ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on August 20, 2006, 11:09:17 PM
I have decided that, after much deliberation, that I will no longer say or type anything when I am on the warpath. Let this be my public apology... :-[
   
    ::EDIT:: Thanks. I will be sure to remember that in the future. 8)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 20, 2006, 11:53:59 PM
If you need to add more information to a thread, and your post is the most recent one, please edit it and stick the new stuff on the end instead of double- or triple-posting.  :-/
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: digitalbias on August 23, 2006, 12:59:40 PM
I'm all caught up now.

Just one question about chapter 21

If Vasher jumps down from a high building with "stiff pants" then what happens when he lands...I know they are supposed to absorb the impact, but do the pants themselves do an acordian like thing, or just stay stiff?

If they stay stiff, what keeps the pants from ramming up into Vasher himself and causing...severe discomfort?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 23, 2006, 02:22:37 PM
Cast-iron underwear.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: digitalbias on August 23, 2006, 05:49:24 PM
Quote
Cast-iron underwear.


That stuff has gott chafe...and rust. Give me titanium with rounded edges (i.e. "comfort fit") any day. ;D

On a more serious note: If you think about wearing pants that would essentially be like putting your legs into two tubes of PVC and jumping off a building....Or making something that looked like pants and then stepping into them and jumping off a building....something's going to get hurt.

You could say, "It grabs onto the waist", but then the pants shove up into your gut..ouch! So it's almost like there has to be some kind of shock absorber that won't have an impact on your body.  There are other articles of clothing that could be used. An example I'm deliberatly ignoring is the idea of "Elevator or platform shoes." Yick.

So the next thing you have to think of is something like an accordian...but then your pants have to be longer than your legs...unless they grow as you're falling, like the cloak of the one guy that lifted him above the crowd. That's possible, but does it work in the context of the story? I don't know.

Anyway, that was the one thing that make me go..."hum.."
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on August 23, 2006, 10:48:23 PM
Quote


That stuff has gott chafe...and rust. Give me titanium with rounded edges (i.e. "comfort fit") any day. ;D  
;D Thats funny!!
 
On another note, where is EUOL? There is no Warbreaker!  On another note, this one in no way related, EJS's review on amazon of Mistborn has been helpful  to like, 100 people! Isn't that like, cheating? ???
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: digitalbias on August 24, 2006, 01:23:15 AM
Quote

 
On another note, where is EUOL?


If I had to guess, I'd say EUOL is in route to or at WorldCon.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 24, 2006, 01:01:47 PM
Yes, everyone's at Worldcon. We watched the Disneyland fireworks from Moshe's hotel room balcony last night and had a good ol' time.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: ja9sen on August 25, 2006, 12:08:42 AM
I am loving warbreaker so far. This story line grabbed me from the start. I had a hard time getting into Elantris.  this story has gotten my attention and dragged me in I look forward to the new chapters.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 28, 2006, 04:58:05 PM
New Warbreaker.  This one will actually probably come BEFORE the previous chapter, but I'm going to number it 22 right now to avoid confusion.

www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh22-1.0.doc

I will probably still post one on Wednesday!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: digitalbias on August 28, 2006, 06:53:48 PM
I think it's a good idea to switch the order of these last two chapters. It builds the tension and makes the Vasher priest question more bearable.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 30, 2006, 03:10:42 PM
This chapter went long, so I only have half for you this week.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh23Partone-1.0.doc

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on August 30, 2006, 03:41:39 PM
So, can you send me an e-mail about what you did to get negative numbers in the Blog Categories?  Also you do know you can assign more then one category to a blog post right?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on August 30, 2006, 04:03:18 PM
Yes, I've done it before, and I sent you an email a while ago on it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spink_Longfellow on September 06, 2006, 12:27:34 AM
I, like most posters thouroughly enjoy your work. I found it through a friend's blog site. I find it orginal and refreshing. That said I suppose a few comments are in order.

I understand the oposing character types of the sisters but they are sisters, shouldn't they be somewhat alike? I also understand Vivenna being so stubborn, but I need to see her character come to realize she may have to get even more dirty than she is now to accomplish the things she sets out to. I would actually play with the idea of her being tempted to take more breath later on when she might possibly be learning to Awaken. At some point she'll have to accept that the two oposing religions came from a singular one. She could possibly find that religion and taking it as her own she might accept breath/color? Maybe Tonk Fah is a follower and through some history into her people's ancestors, the original outcasts, she could become a follower? I would enjoy finding more out about them and their powers that seem to be unknown by their holders and feared by their enemies.

I too enjoy Vasher/Nightblood and want more still. I think you might need to flesh out their relationship some more or maybe it's just part of the mystery yet. I like to imagine his purposes are his own and selfserving, that he may be a hindrance but will find his goals easier to achieve through helping Vivenna, though Tonk Fah would never trust him and does want to kill him. However, being a mercanary will acdept it at Vivenna's order or at least so it seems, he did say he can quit any time...

I can't wait to see where you're going with the Lord Ruler's character! It's very interesting to think he is merely a pawn. The relationship between the two religions can also be explored here. The Risen having been caused by the absence of the outcast?

What's the deal with the nobles hair color change? I think it needs a functional purpose. This might be explored or found out by Vivenna when the war begins and can use it to her advantage.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on September 06, 2006, 09:23:18 AM
I've not read the chapters yet, but as for sisters being somewhat alike...

My younger brother is severely introverted, a deep seated loaner, and he is not even inclined to spend time with the family. He is absorbed with foreign cultures (primarily Korea and Japan) and has a fundamentally different philosophy than I when it comes to art and literature. About the only thing we do share is that we happen to belong to the same religion (though our attitudes toward that institution are widely variant) and that we are interested in art and literature -- of different sorts.

So... no, there can be only token similarities between siblings and it can be quite believable.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on September 06, 2006, 06:17:33 PM
It's funny, I read through the Warbreaker chapters over the long weekend and was wondering if you (Brandon/EUOL) would find my comments useful, and one of my comments was going to be that I thought the sisters were a little too similar!  Goes to show how different readers notice and focus on different things.

I'm not sure how valuable my comments will be, in that Warbreaker feels very much like a young adult novel and that's something that I don't typically go for these days: the genre post-Harry Potter has too many characteristics that I find unfortunate, although they're undeniably viable among many readers.  However, realizing this is a first draft, here are some specific thoughts I had on Siri and Vivenna while reading the chapters, which you can use or not as you think best.

Regarding differences and similarities between Siri and Vivenna, I think there's a bit too much "tell" and not enough "show" with their characters and characteristics.  Several different sources tell us repeatedly that Siri is impetuous and undisciplined while Vivenna is dutiful and thoughtful.  It is Siri however who goes obediently off to marry the God King (as opposed to doing something impetuous, like running away), and keeps her discipline by thinking of her duty to her country; it is Vivenna who, impetuously and in defiance of her father, rushes off to save Siri with no real plan.  Thus, what we're told about the characters and what their actions show us are consistently two different things.  This is a problem in itself, of narrative, and also it makes the sisters feel too similar.  Both are a similar mixture of impetuousness and duty; I can see both acting in nearly identical ways if their positions in the book were reversed (Vivenna going dutifully away to marry the God King, Siri setting off impetuously to save her from this fate, etc.).

Some of this I'm sure is intentional -- the "circumstances force two seemingly opposite characters to realize they have more in common than they thought" theme.  My comment though is that not enough is done to show them as opposite in the earlier chapters, and they come too quickly and with too little transition to their similarity.

(A side note on the sisters and names: "Vivenna" sounds like "viv," i.e., vivacious, while "Siri" sounds like "serious" -- their names are almost the exact opposite of their stated characteristics.)

One problematic aspect of the sisters' similarity, from a storytelling point of view, is that both, having been thrust into unfamiliar situations, have been very passive for the past 15-20 chapters.  An example that stands out for me is the scene where Vivenna gains Breath.  Vivenna is asked to make a moral choice to accept or reject the Breath, she chooses to reject it...and then she gains it anyway.  Perhaps this is meant as a statement on life, that sometimes burdens we didn't want are forced on us anyway, but it felt too much like a contrived plot device, a way of getting Breaths to Vivenna that the story will require her to have without requiring her to take action that would impact her moral and theological principles.  Indeed, part of the problem I think is that she doesn't react as we might expect her to, given that she's portrayed as much more religiously knowledgeable and devout than Siri (again, show vs. tell).  I'm thinking her reaction should have been that of an orthodox Hindu given a leather jacket as a birthday present, or a vegan who was force-fed a mouthful of veal: they'd want it out!off!away!, ASAP.  Vivenna's lack of action in this regard pretty much announces her eventual acceptance of the Breath as a practical tool, and makes her subsequent expressions of disgust over the various Hallandren practices somewhat tedious to read.

In fact, as a general statement most of the main characters have seemed to me too passive after the first few chapters.  Siri is swept along by court affairs, Vivenna is swept along by the mercenaries, Lightsong is swept along by his high priest, etc.  I think that this is a big part of why people keep asking for more Vasher: he is the only character who is actively forging his own path and appears to have a plan of action.

Of course, that's just my $.02, and I realize this is a first draft that I haven't yet read the ending of -- some of my criticisms may resolve themselves in the story you already intend to tell.  Indeed, I both have to thank you for making a work in progress like this available -- the process of creation fascinates me -- and say how impressed I am by the quality of the superstructure you're assembling in this draft.  It's quite a complex web you're weaving, with all the different characters and mysteries, and wanting to learn how it all turns out is a powerful incentive to keep on reading!

Best,

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 06, 2006, 06:51:22 PM
Hmm... Warbreaker is certainly not meant as a YA novel. Have you read Brandon's other books that have been published so far? As far as I know, it's supposed to appeal to the same crowd.

I think Brandon will appreciate your comments though. I suspect that the "swept along" nature of things may be on purpose, considering what I know that hasn't been revealed, though I expect that to change by the end--it could be part of the thematic structure: to overcome controls and events forced on you by outside influences. Still, there's only so much of the sweeping along that one can take as a reader, and balancing it more might be better.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on September 06, 2006, 07:39:19 PM
Matt,

I really do appreciate the in-depth comments.  This is exactly what I'm looking for.

I don't intend this to be specifically YA, but my 'adult' fantasy books have a lot of crossover.  They're aimed at that undefined 14+ fantasy audience.  Somewhere in the same place as Anne McCaffery and that bunch.  (Which means not as specifically targeted at adults as China or George R. R. Martin.)

Anyway, here's today's chapter (or, rather, the second half of last week's chapter!)  Enjoy!

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/WarbreakerCh23Parttwo-1.0.doc
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on September 07, 2006, 03:35:31 AM
you know, and this is just the webguy in me, you probably should have created a new folder for these warbreaker chapters since it drives me crazy that they're in a graphic folder.  I created a draft>>Warbreaker folder for you and placed all your chapters there, don't worry the originals are still where you originally posted them.

You writers and non-chalet attitude towards folder names.

Anyway I've added a warbreaker book page here (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/book.php?id=3)

Draft Chapters are located here (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/book.php?id=3&section=16) and since I'm so cool, any file you place in the draft warbreaker directory will automatically appear on that page.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on September 07, 2006, 09:24:37 AM
it's true. very few writers use chalets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalet) for their folder names.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on September 07, 2006, 01:46:40 PM
Stupid spellchecker.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on September 07, 2006, 04:23:28 PM
Quote
Hmm... Warbreaker is certainly not meant as a YA novel. Have you read Brandon's other books that have been published so far? As far as I know, it's supposed to appeal to the same crowd.


I've read Elantris but not Mistborn, so by way of comparison Warbreaker has certainly seemed more YA than Elantris (which I can see as occupying that McCaffrey-like middle-ground). The characters themselves in Warbreaker are younger (be it in age like the sisters, memory like Lightsong, or young in experience like Susebron); they are less tried, experienced, and (therefore) skillful, so spend much of the book being told what to do by adults; and there is, if you'll forgive me for saying so, a certain unreal simplicity of character and (occasionally) plot device that says "YA" to me (or in some ways teen-focused manga/anime: the young women with exaggerated characteristics and ever-changing hair). Most of the characters, when we're introduced to them, have a single defining signature trait. The story seems to be about these one dimensional characters becoming two dimensional, gaining a second trait and learning to balance the two. That to me is a YA construct. A one-dimensional character from an adult perspective needs be someone childishly simple, dangerously obsessed or completely deranged, while a young adult character with a single dimension can, in the new world of YA fiction, just be someone who needs to grow up a bit. Acquiring and balancing new core traits is after all probably the central activity of young adult life; it's how young adults become grown adults.

Cross-over between YA and adult genres can happen in both directions, of course: the Harry Potter books are the quintessential example of YA books embraced by an adult audience. I'm 32 and while I do usually go in for the Martin/Mieville style of fiction, I also find Eoin Colfer's Artemis Fowl books (which are full of characters with only one initial dimension) to be a lot of fun -- although in a very different way. I made the remark about YA in my original post to let you know that I was giving my comments based on trying to look at Warbreaker in that different way, focusing less on "is it okay to have characters each with only one signature trait" and more on "how effectively are those signature traits presented?"

That being said, I don't know precisely what is or is not a YA novel -- I know some people here work in the publishing field and perhaps have a working definition. However I'm not arguing that Warbreaker is a YA novel or should be marketed as one, just saying that so far it's felt like one to me, so I was critiquing it as one. I don't know what the end, or successive drafts, will bring.  If this first draft is essentially a prose outline of the novel-to-be's structure, then perhaps much of the YA factor -- to the extent it is unwanted -- will be taken care of by further drafts.  That's part of why I tried to keep my comments focused on structural matters with what's written now, so they're relevant however many layers are added on in the future.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 07, 2006, 07:10:05 PM
Matt,

Thanks for your outsider's perspective analysis on what differentiates a YA book. I hadn't personally heard that particular analysis before, and though I'm not a YA person myself, I find what you said very interesting. I'd like to hear Stacer's take on it.

I don't personally think Warbreaker would work as a YA, so the parts which are too YA might need addressing. I'd be tempted to hold off judgment until the end, but then again NOT being able to read ahead and see how it all works out is a benefit when the author wants feedback on what does and doesn't work in the earlier sections of a book.

My wife reads a ton of YA, and we recently read The Dark is Rising (just that particular book at the moment, not the others in the series yet), and it annoyed me how the main character was just along for the ride throughout the whole book. None of the decisions he made seemed to me to be actual decisions. Perhaps if I had read and loved the book as a child it would now resonate with me in some other way, but as it is I found it hard to get into.

But this could be a discussion for another thread.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on September 13, 2006, 04:23:49 PM
Wednesday Warbreaker

www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-024-1.1.doc

With thanks to my brother for the auto-updating folder.  Also, big thanks to my lovely wife, who proofread this copy so that you don't have to deal with my terrible typo fetish.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Pemberley on September 13, 2006, 06:03:28 PM
Aw, shucks!  It was nothin'.  I'm curious to see what people say about Blushweaver and Lightsong's witty banter.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on September 17, 2006, 02:31:24 PM
I personaly LOVE Blushweaver! In real life, I would have to throttle 'er, but, like Gilmore Girls, the gal's great when someone else has to deal with her. ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on September 20, 2006, 06:26:46 PM
New chapter:
www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-025-1.0.doc

Part Two, collected:
www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/AAWarbreakerPartTwo-1.0.doc
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Kuntrey_Pilgrum on September 20, 2006, 07:55:40 PM
That map was actually quite good!  What's more, the fact that the Well of Accension is where it is DOES explain the whole nuclear winter thing better....

Sorry Ookla! If you thinks I need to E-D-I-T then I will.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 20, 2006, 09:26:05 PM
That could be considered a spoiler, you know.

[Actually that comment was directed at Brandon, since he made the map.]
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: joevans3 on September 21, 2006, 11:45:12 AM
Hello,
I am really enjoying this book so far.  
What I would really like to know is if there is a way to upload my own files to this forum, or contribute a file in some way.  I am working on the FTP thing at work to see if I can use my server there to host it.  The reason I ask is because I just read Part I and I really liked it, but I was distracted by the spelling errors, so I redlined the whole thing.  Could I volunteer a version that is edited a tiny bit, or is that taboo?

As to the substance, after Part I, I was not sure whether this was going towards a beauty and the beast thing, or a rapunzel thing (with the hair and the father figure issues.).  After reading some of the drafts of Part II, it is looking more like beauty and the beast.  I don't think that is bad, it just means this is a classic story. By the way, I think Part I was looking at the really intersting idea of what happens when a father is too weak to sacrifice his firstborn.  I would like to see that developed, but it looks like it is getting buried in the other stories (and will be redeemed by a happy ending).

I think one thing that could help the story is an evil character.  The only obvious villain is Nightblood, and he seems to be kind of a comic relief.   Vasher, obviously, is an intriguing antihero, but no villain.  Blushweaver obviously has motives opposed to our heroines.  Perhaps the priests do as well.  But this has not been fleshed out much.  The act of taking someone's breath seems to be considered evil by our heroines and a few others, but to really solidify that, I think it would help to see someone else taking breath (Blushweaver maybe?) and enjoying it, or doing something else obviously evil. Maybe the point of view of someone who's lost breath would help?  Obviously, this process is not supposed to "hurt" but just sort of numb somebody, so that may be difficult to illustrate.  Maybe flash back to how Jamine(the girl mercenary, I forgot her name) was before the taking?  Show how she likes colors?

Anyway, the spelling was a distraction, as was the use of ellipses.  Maybe it could work if one character used that form of speech/thought, but it seems that the entire world is afflicted with. . . Captain Kirk-itis.

I started reading Part II (I couldn't resist).  Please, please, please fix the spelling for mussels from muscles, unless you are trying to start your "pun" fantasy now.  It is really really distracting when a group of characters is sitting around eating "muscles."

Anyway, keep writing, I can't wait for the rest.

-J

Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 21, 2006, 12:23:09 PM
Joe, Brandon is notorious for his spelling (though not as notorious as his brother) and is well aware of it. I had the impression he was not looking for word- or sentence-level edits on this first draft, just more general comments on the characters and plot, which are much more important to his writing process at this stage. Spelling is one of those things that can wait until a much later draft to get fixed.

I know the temptation to line edit is one that can be hard to resist, though. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: joevans3 on September 21, 2006, 03:46:28 PM
Thanks for the insight into the writing process and the author.  

Maybe in a book that is being released online, one could accept some editing along the way to allow for easier access by the rest of the public (even if it will all be redrafted at some point anyway).

I am curious to see how substantive redrafts affect the read.

-J ("the Anal")
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on September 21, 2006, 06:54:48 PM
Joe,

Thanks for the comments!  They are very useful.  And, I'm sorry about the editing!  You're seeing ROUGH stuff, I know. If you did do an edit while reading, go ahead and send it to me.  Brandon ala brandon sanderson dot com with no spaces!  

However, I WILL be releasing proofread and edited versions of the book eventually.  For now, just accept my apology!  I tend to write straight through in the groove of the story, and intentionally ignore line-editing on the first draft.  

There ARE some villains in this book.  But, well, read on and let me know what you think when they show up.  I'd really appreciate suggestions and impressions as the book progresses.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: joevans3 on September 22, 2006, 02:43:18 PM
Cool.  I will try the email thing.  

By the way I just finished Mistborn.  [SPOILER WARNING: Don't read this if you haven't finished yet]

Wow.  I really liked it.  As I approached the final chapters, I was sure that you had sold out to the trilogy folks and that you were going to leave everything hanging.  Thank you so much for not doing so.  It always makes me feel ripped off when authors do that.

I loved how you left some big issues hanging so that thre will be plenty to take the series to the next level, but that you wrapped up what I cared about from the first book.  It reminds me of some great series like Dune that started out with a good book and then kept taking it up a notch with each sequel.

Speaking of Dune, in Warbreaker, you could consider doing the preface quote for each chapter from a variety of sources like Herbert did.  That would let you get the history and background in there (suggested by others in the forum) and also add some texture by using different voices and viewpoints.

Thanks for a great read in Mistborn!

-J
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on September 24, 2006, 03:40:01 PM
Quote
I think one thing that could help the story is an evil character.


The idea of having a more defined villain is an interesting comment.  On one hand I've enjoyed the fact that there isn't an obvious opponent, adversary, singular Source Of All Conflict And Evil so far.  The absence of such makes the story more mysterious.  On the other hand, I mentioned in an earlier post how I felt the characters were all too passive, and I think this is part of it -- their actions have little urgency (for themselves or us) because they have no defined opposition acting on them, and for them to act on and react to.

It's like what Elantris would have been with Hrathen's POV taken out -- there would have been more mystery but less tension.  I think with this book, without that recurring insight into the enemy, the challenge is to keep the mystery but up the tension.  You can look at a lot of traditional mystery/thriller sources for examples of this; for me, the important things are that we care about the characters (which means I think we need to get to know them better, learn more about their interests and see them in a wider range of emotional situations) and we need to feel they're in real, imminent danger.

(It occurs to me that there are a lot of similarities between Warbreaker and Elantris, BTW: a young woman leaves her home in a political marriage to unite two countries; the country she goes to has form of government based on mass-exploitation; she has little/no access to her husband until late in the book; an organized religious group seems to be making a play for power; a member of that religion experiences some religious doubt and feels unexpected compassion for the female character.  There are plenty of differences, too, of course, but not knowing what you have planned, this may be something to keep in mind.)

I said in my earlier posts that the story had felt "young adult"-ish to me, and one of the reasons I said that was the absence of what joevans3 calls "evil."  I would instead term it the underdevelopment of things "dangerous," by which I mean not just things that are literally dangerous to the characters, but rather that full-fleshing out of ideas that says something interesting about humanity, that can sometimes make readers uncomfortable.  Basically there seem to be a lot of potentially "dangerous" ideas and story elements that are treated with kid gloves: the moral/psychological implications of the Breath idea; religious certainty/uncertainty; mercenaries, criminals and the underside of a city; the question of ends vs. means; political espionage and sabotage.  This may be a feature of the story as a first draft or it may be a conscious decision to stay away from these things to make the book exclude as few readers as possible.  I mention it mainly to make sure this is a conscious decision, because I think the author should always tell the story he wants to tell -- and obviously in this case we don't yet know how it will end.

I agree, I have wondered what Siri and Vivenna's father has been doing.  At times it's felt like there is too much going on -- so many characters, so many aspects to the magic system, that none of them are getting the attention I think they deserve.  I don't know how far along the story is, hopefully this will change by the end (and the fact that I want to know more is a good thing).

One question on this chapter: how much time has Siri spent teaching Susebron to read as of this chapter?  He seems to have, um, picked it up very quickly.  It's hard for me to conceptualize, but if he had both memorized the alphabet and his storybook, couldn't he have taught himself to read/write at least the words in it?  (Or is this, as you may answer, the reason he's learned so quickly?)

Regarding the previous chapter, Lightsong has definitely become my favorite character, after a slow start.  He himself confessed he was boring at the beginning, but he's gotten more interesting recently, as he's become more interested in what's going on around him.  Also his mystery is interesting.  Who was he in his previous life (we have hints: a woman, a boat; he died five years ago; he was "the best of men")?  Who was Llarimar?  Was Lightsong's death and Return by plan or accident?

It seems Lightsong is being set up to find something meaningful to offer his life for in sacrifice...but what?  Speculations: is it possible for a Returned to give life to a Lifeless?  Something relating to Siri, as she's the one who has rewoken his interest in life?  Something to do with Llarimar, since Lightsong has the most connection with him?  Something completely random; in some ways fitting given Lightsong's somewhat random approach to life?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on September 24, 2006, 03:41:04 PM
(Note: this is a continuation of my previous message, I needed to split it in two because it was too long as one post.)

As long as I'm speculating, I'd guess that given the mysterious nature of the story, one of the more valuable things I might do is let the author know what hints I've picked up on regarding the mysteries and what my speculations are -- there must be times when you wonder, "what have my readers picked up on?"  I suppose it's possible there may be spoilers here...

- It seems that there is a past connection between Jewels and Clod.  They don't seem quite close enough for him to have been a husband or brother, though; was he the member of Denth's band killed by Vasher?

- Something is going to happen to Peprin, and soon...any time a borderline-inept character suddenly announces that he'll take care of something on his own, and asks "don't you trust me to do it?," something happens.  He'll be followed back, he'll be captured, he'll run into someone.  Vasher or one of the crime bosses would seem to be leading candidates.

- What is Vasher up to?  Honestly, I have no idea...insufficient information for me to speculate, unless I've missed hints.  Is he in this for himself or is he working for someone else (see the next item).

- Likewise I don't feel confident enough to speculate on the overall mystery of the political situation.  Are all the priests hiding things from all the Returned Gods; are some Returned and their priests in control; how many factions are there (is Blushweaver part of the faction in control or parallel to it?), and is it ultimately a question of factions or is there one person making all the decisions (someone like Tridees, the head priest, being an obvious [probably too obvious] candidate)?  Is all this recent -- is Susebron the first Hallendren ruler to secretly be a cripled figurehead -- or has the system been in place for longer than that?

- Unlike joevans3 I'm not sure things will end happily for Siri and Susebron...it's certainly a possibility, but Susebron, as the leader (or at least figurehead) of a nation based on exploitation and who owes his very life to that exploitation, may also be set up for sacrifice.  And is he the "noble ignorant" he seems, or is that hint of subterfuge we saw in his last conversation with Siri a sign that he has his own agenda?  One note, if his tongue is cut, he not only cannot use his Breath, he cannot give it up, can he?  Could another Returned use Breath to heal him?  I'm not sure what can be done with Breath in terms miracles/healing.

Anyway, I hope this is useful -- and if I am giving away anything important, let me know if you'd like me to edit this.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on September 27, 2006, 03:47:03 PM
New chapter:

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-026-1.0.doc

MattD

Those are some of the most helpful comments that I've gotten on the book so far, so thank you very, very much.  I'll hold off replying to them right now, for sake of spoilers.  However, I'd like to note that I've also noticed the similarities between Elantris and Warbreaker, and they do worry me a bit.  I hesitated writing this novel for that reason.

A couple of things made me do it anyway.  First, the entire Mistborn trilogy will be between them.  Second, I intentionally wanted to try another stab at some of the concepts in Elantris, since I've grown as an author since I wrote that book.  I find that in my writing, I like to react against myself.  I write something, then say "Hum.  How could I have approached that differently?" Kind of like trying to undermine my own clichés.

So, with Warbreaker, I wanted to tell an evil overlord story where the evil overlord WASN'T evil.  In Elantris, I had a city of the gods without any gods, which always made me a bit sad.  So, I wanted to do a story that was actually about people who were held up as gods.  Also, in Elantris, I had Sarene go off to get married, then find out her husband was dead.  In this, therefore, I wanted to react against that and tell a story about someone who DID end up going through with the political marriage.

Third, I decided I wanted to do something lighter in tone--more like Elantris--after finishing the entire Mistborn series, which grows quite dark.  I wanted something with color and light, rather than mists, ash, and destruction.

Make any sense?  What do others think about these comments?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: joevans3 on September 27, 2006, 05:01:43 PM
Quote


It seems Lightsong is being set up to find something meaningful to offer his life for in sacrifice...but what?  Speculations: is it possible for a Returned to give life to a Lifeless?  Something relating to Siri, as she's the one who has rewoken his interest in life?  Something to do with Llarimar, since Lightsong has the most connection with him?  Something completely random; in some ways fitting given Lightsong's somewhat random approach to life?



I assumed that Lightsong is destined to sacrifice himself to give Susibron back his tongue.  Too obvious?

I have to admit that the idea that the old king might get it in the end makes the suspense a little more interesting for me...although, since I don't really care as much about him as I do about his daughters, it wouldn't be much of a loss.  I suspect that even if he dies, he will also lose a daughter, and only one sister will be left standing with a bittersweet victory.  Or would that be too dark?

I hadn't thought about the Elantris similarities that in-depth, but there are obvious comparisons to be made.  I may have to go back and reread Elantris now.  I think the similarities, as BA suggests, let the author explore different aspects of the same principles.

-j
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on September 27, 2006, 07:11:47 PM
--Note:  I had the wrong chapter linked above!  This week's is Chapter 26!--

I still worry about the similarities.  The thing is, I wrote ELANTRIS seven years ago, so these themes--the person becoming a god in particular--are things I haven't dealt with in a long, long time in my view.  However, to other people, it's going to seem a lot closer.  I may have to tweak some things.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on September 27, 2006, 07:20:19 PM
I liked the new chapter (26) a lot -- the best and most thoughtful dialog in the book so far, I thought.  The salt idea is clever, although I assume the Lifeless troops don't need to eat...I guess it's mainly to make things difficult for their commanders.  That, or Denth has other plans that will impact the Lifeless.

The comment in my previous post about the similarities to Elantris wasn't meant as a criticism, as something "wrong" per se, but just as an observation, to make sure you were aware of them.  Certainly there are plenty of differences -- the characters, setting and many themes all seem quite different so far.  It has definitely felt like its own story, not at all like "Elantris 2.0."  It just would have been bad if you had finished Warbreaker, typed "The End," saved the file, shut down your computer, went to bed...and then woke up at 3am in a cold sweat thinking, "cripes, I ended that the same way I ended Elantris, without realizing it!" ;)

The Lightsong-heals-Susebron idea was one of the speculations I hinted at, joevans3, so you're not alone there...Susebron then free to perform a miracle on a group of people (giving Breath to the Drabs, restoring equality; life to the Lifeless, ending the war?).  The knock on this for me is that for all the pages in the book Lightsong has gotten, it feels like he deserves an end that has greater direct impact and that would feel more satisfying to him personally -- not just being the first step in the plan.  On the other hand, it might represent an important maturation for Lightsong, to take an action not because it alone will save the world in one quick stroke, but because his action would help do so.

Re: the sisters, I can't imagine Vivenna going back to her homeland, she just wouldn't fit there anymore.  If one of the sisters dies, as you suggest, she'd be my bet, although it would also make sense for her to rule in Hallendren since she is the eldest sister and that's what she was trained for.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on September 27, 2006, 08:10:43 PM
Quote
I still worry about the similarities.  The thing is, I wrote ELANTRIS seven years ago, so these themes--the person becoming a god in particular--are things I haven't dealt with in a long, long time in my view.  However, to other people, it's going to seem a lot closer.


I wouldn't worry too much about the Elantris similarities.  In the first place, I am, I think, the only one who's said anything.  I just read Elantris a few months ago, when it came out in paperback, so I've probably read it more recently than most and am thus more sensitive to the similarities.  And I don't yet know how Warbreaker ends, which is a critical factor (see below) -- don't take anything I write too seriously until I've read the end.  Also I have not yet read Mistborn (although I will: it sounds like a good candidate to be my favorite of your books) so Elantris and Warbreaker are my only experiences with your work.  All that you say about Warbreaker not being published for years, and having all of Mistborn in-between (plus the Alcatraz project you're doing), are good points in terms of the mental separation you can expect your readers to have.

Second, while I had noticed a few similarities, I had never sat down and thought about them until that exact point in my previous post where I was mentioning Elantris.  They had not been eating away ay me, detracting from my enjoyment of Warbreaker, in other words.

Third, there's nothing wrong with revisiting ideas and plot elements.  Good authors do it often, because the ideas they're grappling with are too big for a single take.  Orson Scott Card has written several variants of the "young saviour" story, for example, each with a Going Away from Home moment, a Mysterious Pragmatic Teacher, a Lesson in Empathy, etc.  Gene Wolfe has done the same, and his stories always have the Talking Animal Companion, the Journey through the Underdark, the Experience of War, and so forth.  Repetitions, parallels, congruences between stories are not necessarily bad things -- they're often quite positive, because they indicate that the stories are hitting on cultural touchpoints, the collective subconscious, and universal mythologies.

Now I confess, I personally will be a little disappointed in the creative potential lost if Warbreaker ends the same way Elantris did -- if parallel characters perform parallel functions in a parallel resolution.  Or, to be explicit, if Lightsong gives his life so that Susebron and Siri can rule a more equable kingdom happily ever after, while Vivenna marries Denth.  If they do end in similar ways, it's still potentially okay, but (to make this reader happy, at least) you'll need to work to justify it: how is it, and what does it mean, that characters who truly are different in a setting that truly is different end up so similarly?  And if that isn't the case, if the stories end differently, then I think the question of similarities becomes moot.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: amyface on October 02, 2006, 11:30:22 PM
I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying Warbreaker! Let's just say I'm very pleased.

Since you are taking suggestions, I noticed that while she's on her way to t'telir she was able to "grow" her hair short but later when she was growing her hair long to fit the style she said she had to cut it to make it shorter. I personally liked the being able to shorten her hair at will. - it's a little thing, but I really liked the hair changing ability thing... it's fun.

I also just joined the Mistborn RPG, and loned out my recently signed:) copy of Elantris to my librarian coworker for her to read... she's very excited.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 03, 2006, 05:02:02 PM
Amyface,

That's good to know.  I thought the ability to shorten hair was a bit too odd, so I stopped using it.  However, I'm still undecided.  I eventually settled on them being able to make their hair grow with concentration (though it makes them hungry).  Then, if they want it short, they can cut it without really worrying about messing up their style, since they can just grow it back with a little effort.

Does that work, or would you prefer it the way it was?

I'm very thankful to you for loaning out Elantris.  The more people who read my books, the better!  I particularly like it when Librarians read the books, because maybe then they'll recommend them!

MattD,

Again, some excellent comments.  I really appreciate them, and you've given me some good things to think about.  I had some more comments here, but I deleted them for the sake of not spoiling the plot.  Once the book is all done, however, we'll start a spoiler thread to discuss what people think I should do with it.  Right now, I fear that some plot points are too obvious--while others are too obscure!  But, we won't know for certain until people read them and react.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: amyface on October 03, 2006, 09:07:29 PM
I see how it is a very odd thing to be able to "ungrow" one's hair. Either way it won't ruin the story for me, it is just a little thing. I did like how it fit in with her trip to and first few days in t'telir. It would go along with the theme of her being stripped of everything that was once hers. Plus, I think it really emphasized her fear there. I think this could be another show of emotion like the curling and color changing...

But, like I said it's not enough of a big deal to give too much thought to... just a detail that I happened to especially pay attention to, (probably because my hair is a new color every month).
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on October 03, 2006, 09:40:45 PM
I've been guilty of reading and not commenting for a while, so some of these comments are from less recent chapters.

Just a small thing: can lichen grow on marble?  This stoped me in the chapter where Vasher sneaks into the palace: he can sense the lichen growing on the marble wall.  I always thought lichen could only grow on more gritty rocks like sandstone and granite.  I tried to research it, but couldn't find anything.

And, more relevantly, I have to agree with dreamking47 about the pacing.  At the begining, there are plot hooks sinking in every chapter, pulling the plot (and the reader) along, but lately, there's been little suspense.  Siri's husband isn't a monster.  The war hasn't started yet.  Vivena doesn't look anywhere near to being caught (or, for that matter, Siri).  Nothing really horrible is happening in T'telir or in Idris.  I'm not chewing my lip at the end of every chapter, hoping everyone's all right like I did in the begining.  I'm still very much enjoying the novel (the conversations between Siri and Susebron, and the latest with Vivena and Jewels was great), but I'm just not in suspense between chapter anymore.  There's no visible, immediate threat to make me worry.  

There are lots of mysteries, but I think they're made less mysterious by the fact we know so little about them.  The mysteries in Elantris and Mistborn are great because the clues come out little by little: the reader is able to tease the information they've been given, trying to figure out the puzzle.  Here, I feel more like there aren't enough clues to begin playing with and sorting through -- and no immediete need to solve the puzzle: The priests might start hurting Siri in a few months, but there haven't been any threats or indications of what might happen.  They might start a war in a couple months, but the Idrians in town aren't being chased out/burned/executed yet.  There's no immedieate threat to anyone.

Also, and perhaps I'm the only one, when Denth and Tonk Fah were first introduced, they sounded like twins.  I didn't think it was going to be important to be able to tell them apart, but now it's apparent that they're very different people, and not just each other's springboards for clever sarcasm.  I can't remember which one is which, because they were so similar for so many chapters, and now it's frustrating me.

That all said, I'm enjoying the novel very much.  I think its strongest point is its excellent dialogue between characters.  Thanks for letting everyone read this as you write it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Goradel on October 04, 2006, 02:59:48 PM
In song (repeat getting louder and louder and louder and it will come).

Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness.  Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, waiting for warbreaker to come.  WAITING FOR WARBRACKER TO COME, waiting for warbreaker to come.  Here we sit like birds in the wilderness waiting for warbreaker to come.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 04, 2006, 03:28:56 PM
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-027-1.0.doc

Chapter 27.  This one is a little bit longer than usual.  Enjoy.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 04, 2006, 07:55:47 PM
New Edit of Part One, with typos fixed, courtesy of joevans3:

www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/AAWarbreakerPartOne-1.2.doc

Thanks, Joe!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Seeker on October 04, 2006, 10:52:10 PM
How much is changed?  is it worth re-reading?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 05, 2006, 11:02:42 AM
Seeker,

The changes are all small, cosmetic ones.  When I post the 2.0 or the 3.0, it might be interesting to read for changes, but not this one.  I just wanted to post and say thanks to the guy who edited it for me.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on October 05, 2006, 01:44:55 PM
The "Pahn Unity"...(goes back to check Chapter 1)...now that's interesting.  Or coincidence?

Another good chapter, I thought.  Of course, as I mentioned, Lightsong has become my favorite of the characters, but it's good to see the action picking up overall.  I do like and am thankful that there's something in Lightsong's background that is making him inquisitive: in one stroke it both contributes to the mystery of his background and helps explain his recent behavior changes.  It's a nice bit of writing craft.

One critical comment on the chapters just previous to this new one: both Siri and Vivenna in their latest chapters have conversations where they struggle with concepts in an almost straw-man sort of way, Siri with sarcasm and Vivenna with belief.  By that I mean that the arguments they make in their heads are less intelligent and sophisticated then the ones many of your readers might make.  I didn't necessarily mind either in itself -- I can believe that this world is simply less intellectually sophisticated than our modern times, it has a pre-Renaissance Europe sort of feel -- but both arguments combined, and having them placed back-to-back, felt a little awkward to me.  It's tough on the reader, especially in fantasy, having a main character that's less capable or sophisticated than the reader in any significant way.  Here you potentially have two such main characters.  Whatever the parallels of their journeys may be, I think it's thus important to manage the characters so that readers don't have that alienating "I could do better than that" feeling too often or too strongly.

It will be interesting to read this when it's finished, because it has occurred to me that the weekly format of releasing chapters doesn't help the middle part of the book, where I and apparently others felt things dragged a bit.  I do think there are some things that could be improved in later drafts (naturally, this being just the first), but it's also likely true that reading that middle section chapter-by-chapter over the course of two months makes it feel like it's dragging much more than it will when we can read that section in just a few hours and then continue on to the end of the book where at least some of the mysteries are revealed.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 05, 2006, 02:38:54 PM
Matt,

Yes, the weekly format has that drawback.  It's something of a trouble with my writing groups too.  I'll be sure to have alpha readers look at it in whole when it's ready for that.

Could you state, more specifically, which of the arguments you feel are straw men?  I'm aware of what that means, and I think I've got the scenes you're talking about, but I'm not quite certain (on the Siri one especially) where you are finding the characters to be less sophisticated than the reader.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on October 05, 2006, 07:33:12 PM
Quote
Matt,
Could you state, more specifically, which of the arguments you feel are straw men?  I'm aware of what that means, and I think I've got the scenes you're talking about, but I'm not quite certain (on the Siri one especially) where you are finding the characters to be less sophisticated than the reader.  


Certainly...

With Vivenna I was referring to page 14 in chapter 26, specifically the parts where Vivenna is thinking that to believe someone is wrong about something is to put yourself above them.  I thought the part before it, the conversation with Jewels, was really good, so I was disappointed that Vivenna then got mentally stuck at this point.  It seems to me that it's a simple trap that any mode of thinking offers some "out" from.  The "modern" approach of reason and rationality would state that believing someone is wrong about something is simply not putting yourself above them; you're only putting yourself above someone if you deny their ability to learn via reasoned debate the incorrectness of their belief, or deny them the same chance to convince you that they are right and you are wrong.  Some religions would assert that their precepts only apply to those who abide by the same faith, so it's okay to place yourself above non-believers.  In feudal times there was the parents vs. children argument, that commoners were like children who needed the guidance of the nobility and/or priesthood.  Etc.

So it seemed a bit of a straw man for her to be getting stuck on this question, because every society has some built-in way of answering it.  Vivenna is a Princess, after all: a monarchy must be based on some justification for putting some people above others, that she must be familiar with.  The scene thus felt like an artificial delay in Vivenna's story -- she wouldn't be grappling with this question, because she would already have a socially-supplied answer.  She would either be grappling with the justification that underlies that answer, or with the other fundamental questions she's facing.

With Siri, well, I myself have been called sarcastic more than once in the past (shocking, I know), so I guess the way she tries to define and justify sarcasm jumped out at me.  I think her definition (at the top of chapter 25, page 9) is actually backwards: sarcasm is when you say something with one meaning, often a meaning that might in other circumstances be kind, but mean it in a negative way, the opposite of its literal meaning.  When my younger brother messes up and I say, "oh, brilliant!," that's sarcasm.  It is by definition derisive: one of the roots of "sarcasm" means "to tear flesh."  When Siri says that being sarcastic is when you say "things that might be hurtful to someone, but you say them in an affectionate way, or in a playful way," really that's just irony: saying the opposite of something to achieve a particular emphasis.  Sarcasm often includes irony, but all that is ironic is not sarcastic.  Ironically, Siri's and Susebron's banter is in fact somewhat sarcastic -- even though none of it actually fits Siri's definition.

(Apologies for the lecture...don't even get me started on "sardonic!" ;) )

Anyway, I thought this was a straw man because Susebron asks Siri some pretty big questions -- "why do people not say what they mean" and "why do they make fun of each other" -- and Siri gives an overly-simple answer to the straw man: "to be playful or tease."  

Does that make sense?  Maybe it's just me, but in each of these scenes, as I was reading them I found myself thinking "that's not right," or "I could answer that better," or "come on, the answer is obvious," etc.  That the scenes occurred in back-to-back chapters made it especially noticeable.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: joevans3 on October 05, 2006, 07:45:03 PM
I really liked Chapter 27.  I liked the development of the art critique idea (maybe a cover image is suggested here?).  It is interesting to have a god with power that he doesn't really believe in.  

I also started to wonder if Llarimar weren't a faithful lieutenant of Lightsong in a past life, but some sort of traitor.  If an inspector were hot on your trail in some kind of corruption case, and you managed to assasinate him, it would really really stink if he resurrected the next day.  Maybe that would motivate you enough to make you try to become his priest and keep an eye on him.  But the way Llarimar is so steeped in the doctrine suggests he was a priest already, before Lightsong died.  Hmmm...

I just reskimmed the first paragraphs of Chapter 1 v. 2.0.  Is Nightblood silver or black? is just the hilt silver?  Obviously the blade  needs to be black to fit the painting, and everyone's first impression of it, but having that first description focus on the silver throws me off.

The idea of Nightblood having some mythic historical role in the Manywar is intriguing.  Obviously it would take a ton of breaths to animate a sword.  It is growing more clear that this is not often done in this world.  Also, none of the other reanimated objects seem to talk telepathically to their users.


-J

PS I just volunteered some more superficial edits for Part II.  I am the kind of person that gets bothered by typos, so I thought I would make it easier for new readers who happen to pick up the draft.  Seems to go with the open-source theme here.  Enjoy.



Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on October 05, 2006, 09:20:03 PM
Quote
I also started to wonder if Llarimar weren't a faithful lieutenant of Lightsong in a past life, but some sort of traitor.
[...]
The idea of Nightblood having some mythic historical role in the Manywar is intriguing.


The comment about Llarimar is fascinating because as I was reading the latest chapter I had the same thought: basically, wouldn't EUOL be getting a chuckle out of all our past speculations if Llarimar was really the guy running the show.  I don't think that's likely, based on his behavior in the past chapters, but Llarimar did seem a little weird in this chapter...not as enthusiastic about Lightsong's efforts and trying to get him back to being a "normal" god.

Re: Nightblood and the Manywar, one catch with this is the question of whether Lightsong is seeing the past or the future (if indeed he's seeing either).  It seems to me just as possible that Lightsong was seeing a possible future, the war between Hallendren and Idris, with Nightblood having a key role.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on October 09, 2006, 12:58:55 AM
Okay, after long being behind, I've caught up.

What strikes me from reading and from discussion in this forum is how adult this book is. Well, the whole sex thing. It's not something you've touched on much in previous books. The noisemaking Siri does is particularly graphic. It presents a clearer picture of what sex supposedly sounds like than I ever had until well beyond age 13.

I'm not sure what to make of that.

Susebron's sexual ignorance also strikes me. Has he not asked Siri what the heck she's been doing making those noises every night? It seems the topic would have come up immediately. I assumed he knew what she was doing, but now I can only ask why he hasn't brought this up earlier. It brings up the passiveness argument from before. I preferred a Susebron who was defiantly sitting there not procreating to one who never even got told what to do. Siri was given very specific instructions; no one told Susebron? They just assumed he knew? Or there's a specific priest who is supposed to tell him things, and the other priests think he is doing his job, but he is deliberately keeping him completely ignorant? I mean I expected that all the priests were deliberately keeping him ignorant, but then if they actually expect him to produce an heir, you'd think they'd tell him how.

Siri's story seemed to move too slowly to me. She seems to spend too many nights uncomfortable before taking action. Susebron's inaction might be explained by him thinking that all they had to do was be in the same room together, but it is also not very satisfying.

It feels like we are still very early in the book, yet I guess it's over halfway through? There seems to be a lot of inaction on all parties' parts. I really enjoyed chapter 27; Lightsong is finally doing something. This feels like the beginning of a story for him, not the halfway point. He was a somewhat entertaining character before, and it takes a while to establish the character of a lazy bum before you can make him getting off his duff out of the ordinary, but it...well, took a while.

The most interesting events seem to focus around Vasher, who doesn't get much screen time.

It's a book I would keep reading to find out how it ends, and I'm confident you've got good stuff in store, but it does seem slow. Of course, some of that could just be from getting only one chapter per week, when you don't even write that slowly.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Spriggan on October 09, 2006, 02:01:40 AM
Quote
Okay, after long being behind, I've caught up.

What strikes me from reading and from discussion in this forum is how adult this book is. Well, the whole sex thing. It's not something you've touched on much in previous books. The noisemaking Siri does is particularly graphic. It presents a clearer picture of what sex supposedly sounds like than I ever had until well beyond age 13.

I'm not sure what to make of that.



Well EUOL does have a goal to break into every market and now that he's successfully got a book sold to the Young Adult market he's going after the Adult market.  Here's hoping for finally getting a Fabo cover! (inside joke)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 11, 2006, 01:18:08 PM
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-028-1.0.doc

Wednesday Warbreaker.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on October 16, 2006, 11:30:16 PM
I think the dialog in all the recent chapters has really taken a nice jump forward.  Partly it's that the characters are becoming more active, partly that the story is now giving your writing abilities more room to shine, and partly it's that interesting characters are finally interacting together -- so many of the previous chapters were characters talking and thinking mainly to themselves.  It's true even within the same chapter: Siri by herself, trying and failing to converse with Bluefingers, seems rather unimpressive; Siri and Lightsong together really sparkle.

I'm not sure I buy that nobody before has noticed the pattern of God Kings sacrificing themselves just when an heir is born.  That jumped out at me.  Did the Idris King not notice this before sending his daughter?  Did Vivenna not wonder about it during her studies?  Did the Monks who tutored her not realize?  It's not the kind of thing you can hide, and anyone not of the Hallendren faith would immediately think conspiracy.  It also struck me that the new-and-improved investigative Lightsong didn't pick up on this suspicious pattern.

I'm not sure whether I'm pleased with Siri's unthinking selflessness that she didn't ask what happened to the previous Vessels, or annoyed at her oversight.

Re: Ookla's (Spoookla's?) comments on sexuality...the Siri scenes didn't strike me as any more graphic than, say, a PG-13 movie, or some of Anne McCaffrey's Pern books that you alluded to earlier.  That being said, I do remember reading Dragonflight, Dragonquest and The White Dragon when I was around 12 or 13 and thinking of the more sexual bits that this was clearly weird adult stuff that I didn't really understand, that made me a little uncomfortable in a pubescent sort of way.

Susebron's sexual ignorance isn't necessarily unbelievable although you do get into nature vs. nurture there in terms of instinct.  It is totally believable for me that he wouldn't confront Siri about what she was doing...initially he wouldn't have had the vocabulary, and also would have assumed that Siri knew what she was doing (that is, that what Siri was doing was how babies were made).  Also, in the beginning he's trying to decide if she's someone he can trust and confide in, and her actions probably confuse him and make him delay approaching her.  At least, that's the sense I got.

It does raise the issue that the listeners are picking up on Siri's sounds of simulated sex but not on her teaching Susebron to read.  Also, did the priests really expect Siri to seduce Susebron and not become aware of his tongueless state?  To "don't ever try to talk to him" they would need to have added, "don't ever try to kiss him or expect him to kiss you."

MattD

(Edited to add paragraphs about sexuality.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 18, 2006, 04:10:51 PM
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-029-1.0.doc

New chapter.  Just FYI, the last chapter marked about the halfway point in the book.


Thanks, MattD and Ookla, as always.  I like the suggestion about kissing; I think I'll also try to make it less of a 'mystery' that all the previous God Kings gave their lives away at that point.  It can be widely known, I think, but still a surprise to an outsider, if I work it right.

Also, I think the book  probably is a bit slow.  When I draft a novel, I tend to go through and cut about 15% just to keep the pacing up.  I haven't done that for this book, so that will help.  After that, I'll have to look and see if I need to speed anything up plotting-wise.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Swiggly on October 18, 2006, 07:23:55 PM
Vivenna makes me laugh. She doesn't want to be spoiled and difficult, but by going with her beliefs not to, she is. I bet you're having an extra fun time on this book, Brandon.

-Swiggly
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on October 19, 2006, 03:01:58 PM
That was a really good chapter.  I liked the dialogue, Vivenna's thoughts all seemed interesting and focused, and there were small subtle developments on many fronts.  I loved the line "It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- in fact, I think I'm going to add it to my signature.

My only criticism here is that there are a few times Denth mentions something mysterious and Vivenna doesn't call him on it.  Denth mentions Vasher and Vivenna doesn't ask, "just who is Vasher?"  Denth mentions Jewels not being interested in Peprin because she has someone else, and Vivenna doesn't ask about that.  In these cases, where there's no reason for Vivenna not to ask these things, I as the Reader am far too aware that you as the Author are holding things back from me.  It jerks me out of the story as a living thing that I'm participating in, and makes me aware that it's a rigged game of someone else's design.  It's not mysterious so much as it is annoying.  The true mysteries are the things the POV characters don't know and have to strive to find out, not the things that they inexplicably haven't bothered to ask about.  So I would suggest either cutting those bits of dialogue, start getting into the answers, or give Vivenna a reason for not asking or Denth a reason for not answering quite yet.

Quote
I think the book  probably is a bit slow.  When I draft a novel, I tend to go through and cut about 15% just to keep the pacing up.  I haven't done that for this book, so that will help.  After that, I'll have to look and see if I need to speed anything up plotting-wise.

I think cuts might help the pacing, but also just infusing the previous chapters with more -- of everything -- will help, too.  Show us more about the characters, their characteristics, interests, expectations and goals.  Show us more about the world.  Right now it's difficult to give specifics because I don't know what is supposed to be mysterious (things the POV characters legitimately don't know or would want to keep quiet about) versus what could just use a little more explanation or description (as above, things the characters do know but just haven't gotten around to telling us).  But I can get back to this when you reach the finish.

I had guessed that the story was more at the 2/3 or 3/4 point, so I think it bodes well that there's a whole half of the story left: the recent chapters have all shown an upward trend in terms of interesting events and dialogue.

Quote
I think I'll also try to make it less of a 'mystery' that all the previous God Kings gave their lives away at that point.  It can be widely known, I think, but still a surprise to an outsider, if I work it right.

Sure.  Also, does it need to be a surprise?  I've been hesitant to make suggestions or offer specific ideas here for many reasons (it feels presumptuous; I don't know the full story so don't know if anything I suggest would actually work; I don't know if things I might suggest would fit your writing style) which I think results in my posts being predominantly critical.  So here's one idea, that I can elaborate on if you like: how much of Susebron's condition needs to be a surprise for Siri and/or the reader in order for the story to work?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 25, 2006, 05:40:39 PM
New Chapter:

Chapter Thirty (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-030-1.0.doc)

I've officially started the 2.0 draft of this book, which is when I read through and make corrections on my own, mostly for consistency.  I'll cut the cook from the early chapter (except the first one) for instance, and will clean up the language a lot.  Your comments, the ones on this thread, won't be implemented until 3.0 or 4.0, but they ARE extremely helpful.

Once I have 2.0 done (which could still be a while, since Warbreaker is, unfortunately, low on my priority lists) I'll start posting the new chapters out of that document instead.  I will also update the large sections--Part One, Two, etc.--to the new version.  However, I'll also post the old versions as well, for any who want to compare.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Swiggly on October 25, 2006, 11:02:30 PM
"And, more than that, the wounds themselves had a dark black twinge to them.  Like they had been infected with some terrible disease."


Typo? Page fifteen. Bottom of page. Tinge?
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 26, 2006, 07:51:01 PM
Nice catch!  Thanks.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Miriel on October 26, 2006, 09:19:28 PM
For me at least, this chapter was amazing.  So much happened.  The various plot elements were thickening and progressing in very tangible ways.  The extra bits of information we get with Vasher add terribly to the mystery, whereas in previous chapters I often felt like the mysteries were sitting still because nothing that I knew was important was being revealed, though interesting things were happening.  I enjoyed this one a lot.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on October 26, 2006, 10:23:04 PM
Thanks, Miriel!

I'm about four chapters into the rewrite, and I'm finding myself cutting quite a bit from the early Siri/Vivenna viewpoints.  My instinct is that the first half of the book is too slow, even by my standards.  You'll see a general tightening of the storylines as I--hopefully--trim the fat.

Things really speed up from where you are on, however.  Some important things really start to happen in the next five or six chapters.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on October 27, 2006, 01:20:55 PM
I agree, a nice chapter.  The characters are showing an interest in the mysteries you're using to keep us readers interested, which makes me "connect" with the characters more strongly.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dawncawley on October 28, 2006, 04:20:16 PM
Well Brandon, after reading Elantris, and having Mistborn sitting on a to read pile, sorry about that really school is murder right now, I am anxiously awaiting more in this story.

First of all, I read all 30 chapters in the last, I don't know 14 hours or so, with breaks in that time for eating, and sleeping. Personally, I thought that it moved very well, and yes, there could be some trimming, but I think too much could possibly lose something, but it is just a possibility, you seem to have much more insight with this novel. Sorry if that sounds critical, it is meant as a compliment.

I love the characters, and the fact that the questioning isn't just in the rightness of what they are doing, but in the base character natures of themselves. Unfortunately at this point Vasher is intriguing, but I don't know enough about him for my taste, but I guess that is where the mystery comes in, and that is good too.

Lightsong could quite possibly be one of my favorite characters, I just love the interaction that he has, not only with his priests, but with all of the other characters, and I am glad that he finally seems to have a purpose. Other than being terribly witty that is  ;)

I also am really loving the relationship building between Siri and Susebron. I think that aspect has been good since the beginning.

I am anticipating a wonderful plot twist that involves Lightsong, Denth and Vasher. Am I off base on this? I have a feeling that the three of them are not as seperate as they appear to be, but maybe I am just reading too much into it. I am a faithful Melanie Rawn speculator after all ;) And this is proving to be just as much fun, and I can't wait for more. Thank you for that by the way.

So, I guess, long story short, I think this is going beautifully and can't wait to see where the story takes us next. Thank you again :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Drerio on October 28, 2006, 07:38:41 PM
EUOL -

I am sorry that I have been a moocher up until this point.

So far, I have enjoyed what you have written, and I am looking forward to future chapters.

The few comments I have are going to be pretty general since I have read most of the chapters as they have been written.

So, in summary: I am really beginning to enjoy the interactions with Lightsong, and he appears to fit the persona of the mercenary band very well.  I am guessing here that he is going to be a dead friend of Denth's.  

I agree with others who have mentioned that this store appears to move too slowly in some of the early parts of the book.    

I think the oddest development so far is the personality shift of the God King.  His early attitudes are completely juvenile with the appearance that he has been kept completely in the dark intellectually up to this point.  In my experience, those who are not used to thinking about things just keep themselves from contemplating them; therefore, they have a very superficial understanding of their beliefs.  Yet in chapter 30, he appears to have the ability to reason relatively well.  However, all of the discussions still seemed too well reasoned on his part.  I think that you may have had that sense as well, or you would not have put in the sentences about him learning very quickly.  However, I still felt that it was a bit forced.

Thanks for allowing us to work on this.  It provides an interesting change to critically discuss a work in progress, other than my own.

Cheers,

Drerio
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: amyface on October 30, 2006, 07:42:35 PM
Oh my goodness, I'm having issues waiting for the next chapters. It's like someone telling you they will give you some chocolate next Wednesday. It hurts. I like how the God king talks about his mother. This means that Suri isn't really in Danger. This could give her some good oppertunities to change the country and the system, if she can't do anything about Susebron possibly giving up his life and them having an Heir.

I think Vasher is probably my favorite character for some reason. I keep wanting him to sneak in and talk to vivenna or something. I don't want him to be a bad guy I guess...?

I'm very excited about next Wednesday!

...My coworker who doesn't usually like fantasy at all was talked into reading Elantris (by me) and she really liked it BTW. She's a librarian so that's always good.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Skar on October 31, 2006, 12:06:19 AM
And so the serial is reborn.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on November 01, 2006, 05:45:11 PM
Chapter Thirty One (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-031-1.0.doc)

Lightsong this week, and one of my favorite of his chapters, so enjoy!

amyface, Drerio, and dawncawley:

Welcome!  Thank you so much for the comments and the encouragement.  Please, feel free to post any suggestions and thoughts you have about future chapters too.  Also, feel free to spread around news of the book to friends, family, and random people you meet on the street.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: DavidB on November 02, 2006, 01:17:49 AM
Thanks for the read; I've been having a lot of fun with this!

Here -- for your amusement, I suspect -- are some guesses about what's going to happen next:

- I think this chapter makes it pretty obvious that Lightsong wasn't a cop. I'm pretty sure he was on the other side of the law in his former life. I kind of halfways suspect he was Arsteel, but I can't remember everything that's been said about that guy, so maybe it's impossible.

- Vivenna has to become an awakener, so that she can show off your awesome magic system, which up to now hasn't done much of anything. (Also, she'll get to angst about it. But she'll have no choice because otherwise somebody would die or something.)

- When she does, her hair will give her incredible super power. (Awakeners have to drain the color from something in order to get power to do their magic, but Vivenna's hair can change color from bland brownish to vibrant red whenever she wants, making it a limitless source of color-power. Also, the fact that she can grow more as fast as she needs to means that she can easily use it for awakener-dolls and stuff.)

- Peprin Must Die. Either that, or fall in love with somebody other than Vivenna -- probably somebody working for The Other Side, so that he can perpetrate a heartwrenching betrayal. He certainly cannot end up as Vivenna's love interest -- he would have needed way more character development at the beginning in order to do that.

- If Nightblood kills things by draining their color, I wonder if it can be defeated by Vivenna's hair too? (Also, are greys/lifeless immune?)

- I can't decide whether Siri is going to end up pregnant at the end of this story, but I'm pretty sure Susebron is not going to survive. (It just wouldn't work out between them -- he's too old, too mute, and too undead.)

Incidentally, back in Chapter 23, is there any particular reason you picked mussels (or muscles) as the Food That Freaks Vivenna Out? As far as I know, cooked mussels are kind of a bland beige-ish, in black shells, and they're completely, er, organic, so they should be relatively Austre-friendly. If I wanted to freak Vivenna out, I'd have picked something like strawberry ice cream. With sprinkles on top, with all of the sprinkles meticulously arranged in patterns to look like hearts and smiley faces.  For bonus points, the chef is an awakener, and he comes to the table, awakens the sprinkles, and gets them to arrange themselves into cute shapes. (I imagine it would take a ton of life points, or whatever they were called, in order to awaken sprinkles, but so what? The chef gets them all back after.)

Also, I was half-expecting Lightsong to try to get Blushweaver to juggle, in order to see whether that's really something he's remembering from his past life, or if it's just something all gods can do. But I guess he's not quite that dumb.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: dreamking47 on November 02, 2006, 09:53:04 AM
Quote
I kind of halfways suspect he was Arsteel, but I can't remember everything that's been said about that guy, so maybe it's impossible.


I had thought about this initially, too, but Lightsong has been a god for five years, and Arsteel's death was more recent.

It wouldn't surprise me if Peprin somehow dies for Vivenna -- you know, jumps in front of an arrow meant for her or something like that.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on November 02, 2006, 12:43:39 PM
Interesting guesses....

Anyway, 2.0 for Part One is done!  What's changed?  Well, nothing huge but quite a bit on the small scale.  

*  I removed Mab, the cook, from the chapters after Siri's first encounter with her.
*  I tried to trip references that mentioned exact numbers of Breath when talking about BioChroma.  My feeling was that the first draft was to exact in this regard, and made the magic feel too video-game like.  
*  Awakening now requires color to work--it's not optional.  
*  In the chapter where Siri first enters the Court of Gods and the God King's palace, I made her more nervous and slightly more timid.  
*  Standardized some naming.  Klad the Usurper.  Manywar.  Peacegiver.  Others.  
*  Fixed consistency with Siri's soldiers, her period of Wedding Jubilation, etc.
*  Returned now need to feed on Breath once a week, rather than once a day.  
*  Numerous line edits for clarity, concision, character consistency, and pacing.

If you want a copy, here you go:
Part One Collection Version 2.0(Chapters 1-13 in one download) (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/AAWarbreakerPartOne-2.0.doc)


And, if you're just interested in seeing how I revise, you might like this document, which shows the changes between the 1.0 version and the 2.0 version:
Comparison Document Part one 1.0 to 2.0 (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/Warbreaker Part One 1.0 to 2.0 Comparison.doc)

You'll notice that I added an acknowledgements page.  If you're not on there and should be, or if you want me to use your real name rather than your nick, post and let me know.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Windcall on November 06, 2006, 06:14:19 PM
Hi folks,

well, I'm rather new to this forum thingy, I'm not english speaking (French I'm afraid) , and I'm not by a long shot a litterary critic...but I really love a good fantasy books (hell, I'm a Geek...) and it's fascinating to see  one being written rignt under our eyes...so I though I'd drop by to add my unwanted opinion.

This is about Vasher...I mean, can't suddenly (in chapter 30, page 19) expose him as the Bad Guy, can you? I've enjoyed wondering about him, not too sure what side he was on or if the evil things he did was just the sword and not him. Now, I know he's just the average bad guy who wants to kill those standing in his path...and that takes all the fun out of the character, suddenly he becomes predictable and uninterresting. I would prefer him to stay ambiguous until later when everything comes to a final confrontation.

There is several great characters... perhaps you have too many? The main character might be fleshed out more if there was less secondary character whith a need for bakground...

Thank you Mr Sanderson for this experiment in writing..it's really interesting! I'll keep on reading...(and buying, don't worry!)
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on November 08, 2006, 05:02:46 PM
Everyone,

New Chapter!
Chapter Thirty Two (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-032-1.0.doc)

Wincall,

Welcome!  Thanks for the comments.  Your English is amazing.  I actually took four years of French in high school, but have forgotten almost all of it!  My trip to Paris as a senior, however, was one of the highlights of my high school experience.  I stayed with a family, and really enjoyed myself.  

Elantris is slated for a 2008 release in France, I think.  We're annoyed that it's taking so long, but ah well.  

Thanks again for your thoughts!  The things you said about Vasher are very interesting to me.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: EUOL on November 08, 2006, 05:06:25 PM
Also, note that Part Two has been updated to 2.0.  I'll do a comparison document sometime.

Part Two Collection Version 2.0(Chapters 14-25 in one download) (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/AAWarbreakerPartTwo-2.0.doc)

This section has place where we skip a couple of chapters in name only, since I'm adjusting the chapter numbers to make the prologue into chapter one, and because I had misnamed one of the other chapters.  
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on November 16, 2006, 04:03:16 AM
New Chapter:

Chapter Thirty Three (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-033-1.0.doc)

Sorry it's a bit late!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on November 17, 2006, 01:22:27 PM
Thanks so much for posting the comparison document between drafts one and two.  It's fascinating to see this process in action: it's one thing to hear "don't worry about X, Y or Z in the first draft, you'll have the chance to fix them in later drafts" and another to actually see that happen.  I'm as critical of my own writing as I must seem to be here; I think I'm an editor by mindset, but I enjoy the act of writing too much to be an editor.  I write very slowly, always trying to make the first draft perfect...it's something I'm trying to cure myself of, and your courage in posting this helps enormously.  I know you and your publisher had some initial concerns about what posting chapters online would do to the novel's eventual sales when it reaches print, but know that I at least will definitely be buying it, to see the final result of all the drafts and editorial work as compared to the first draft.

Anyway, catching up with reading the chapters:

I really liked Vivenna in Chapter 32; she's been such a controlled character, it makes her much more human and sympathetic when all her thoughts and emotions start to boil over.  I also thought it was neat how you had Vivenna decide to use her Breaths, and then fail in the attempt: choice without benefit, in contrast to the scene where she acquires them, which was benefit without choice.

I also really liked Dust, the storyteller in Chapter 33, and his multimedia method of storytelling.  Very imaginative!  (I'm imagining though the pile of debris he must leave in his wake, there's some untapped potential for humor there at the end of the chapter.)  The we-storytellers-know-the-truth-about-the-God Kings explanation works as far as Siri's ignorance but sidesteps the larger question of why nobody else has noticed (scholars in Idris, Llarimar or Lightsong in previous chapters, etc.) and told her.  Some alternate ideas: a) what if everybody knew about this but Siri, simply because she hadn't paid attention to tutors; or b) what if, as I hinted at suggesting before, the sacrifice of the God Kings after an heir is born is part of the religion, something Susebron had been indoctrinated for by the priests from a young age.  I don't know if either of those actually work with the story, with what you have planned for Susebron, but the explanation presented in this chapter still feels a little forced to me and somewhat dilutes the main surprise of the chapter, that the Idris royalty is descended from the First Returned.

I confess, even after this chapter I'm still confused (perhaps even more-so) about who was fighting who in the Manywar.  Were the Five Scholars all within Hanald, or were they spread out among other nations?  This chapter also makes me a bit confused about Austre.  If the Five Visions date to the start of Hanald, was Austre worshiped there, in the merchant nation based on colorful dyes?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Drerio on November 18, 2006, 02:03:34 AM
EUOL -

Chapter 33 was had excellent plot advancement.  Siri is finally growing up and growing into her own.  Her rebelliousness is coming in handy, and in a lot of ways, she has grown up more quickly than her sister.  I would suspect that this difference is reflective of your own religious experience in which individuals who believe in absolutes, but do not understand what they believe (Vivenna) have a harder time accepting challenges to their beliefs than those who believe to their core, but are more flexible (Siri).

I did, however, have a couple of questions.  In chapter 31, you mention that Hopefinder looked to be about 12, and had stopped maturing on the brink of manhood, but had stopped there.  In chapter 16, you describe the God King as about 20, but maybe not quite.  If, as you describe in chapter 31, all returned, the God King included, follow the same developmental paradigm, then should not the God King also look only about 12?  Also, if Returned only mature to the brink of manhood, how could they ever reproduce since they have not yet gone through puberty.  (Hopefinder is quite blatant about how Blushweaver's seduction would not work on him.)

Also, I am a bit confused about the origin of the Royals line.  Since each baby born to a normal mother by a God King Returned is still-born, why is it that: 1. the Royals are normal (do not require additional breaths to live), and 2. the God Kings are unable to change their hair color the way the Royals are?  The way Dust talks about Peacegiver is as a Returned, but really no more special in what he is than any other Returned in except for his being an importance historical figure.  But perhaps you are going to say that the reason the line from Peacegiver must be male is that female children born from a male Returned are able to bear live young.

Also, if Returned are able to bear children, why is there not more worry about a God giving birth to a child?  It seems that this should be a major point.  For some reason, I thought you had mentioned that Returned were sterile, so this was not a problem, but I can't find that in the text nor would this fit with the God King's ability to produce an heir.


Cheers,
Drerio
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on November 18, 2006, 09:49:03 PM
Alright. I have caught up and am still fascinated by Lightsong. I still have a feeling there is more there than I am seeing, or maybe I am wanting more from him. I feel that he is important as more than just a God.

Peacegiver was not the first Returned was he? I read the last post and was mildly confused, but not sure if I had read the chapter correctly myself.

 I love the use of Dust the storyteller, and hope that we will get to see him at least one more time, but perhaps more, as a way to help inform Siri and move the story a bit. He also gives us some background that would be drier and harder to stomach if it was from a "book" that Siri read for information, in my opinion.

I agree that Siri seems to be maturing, and adapting, far better than her sister at this point in the story. Hopefully, there will be a goodly portion of life slapping her sister in the face, as there was in Chapter 32, I think it was. I lose track of which chapter I am reading, I apologize if I got it wrong. I think a healthy dose of reality will help both sisters, and Siri is taking her own steps to find it.

Sorry if this didn't really make a whole lot of sense, I have spent the day dealing with a fussy and feverish three year old, so I may not be making the best sense ever.  :-[ 


Edit on Nov. 22:
I was looking over the comparison draft, and found a passage that had a bit of a boo-boo. I thought you might want to know about it....Here it is , I just pasted it so I didn't mess up the wording...

/quote
The man hung from the ceiling, naked and chained.  But, more importantly, he was gagged. And his color was vibrant to Vasher’s eyes, the color of his skin pure, his ragged clothing deep and brown.
/end quote


The part I question is this, if he is naked and chained how is his clothing ragged, or a deep brown? This is the only thing I found, but it is late, and I don't even know if I put this very well. I am sorry if it sounds mean or nitpicky... I most certainly don't mean it that way.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on November 23, 2006, 05:26:38 PM
New Chapter from Spain!

Chapter Thirty Four (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-034-1.0.doc)

Enjoy. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on November 25, 2006, 07:54:26 AM
Thank you :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on November 26, 2006, 01:21:51 AM
Here are two very, very small nitpicks that nobody else is likely to notice, ever:

Of course, there was far too much clatter at present, but that didn’t stop her from thrilling a little bit at her part in it.

You should remove the emphasis on the word "too".

“If things don’t turn out as I want them to,” she said, taking a deep breath, heart fluttering.  “I want you to get Susebron and I out of the palace.”

You should have a comma, rather than a period, after the word "fluttering." Also, to be grammatically correct, Siri ought to say "Susebron and me."
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: MPlease on November 28, 2006, 03:21:55 AM
I'd just like to point out that the link to Part Two 2.0 isn't working anymore and that chapters 30 and 33 aren't opening for me at all. Admitedly, I'm using appleworks instead of word, but appleworks doesn't have any problems any other word docs I've come across or any of the other chapters. If anyone technically inclined could maybe help me out a bit? Pretty please with a cherry on top?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on November 29, 2006, 05:49:28 PM
Another new Chapter from Spain! 

Chapter Thirty Five (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-035-1.0.doc)

Enjoy. 

Mpease:  Not sure what's up.  I'll try to fix things, if I can.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miriel on November 30, 2006, 06:36:22 AM
This, for me, was possibly the most exciting chapter in the book thus far.  Vivenna has always been my favorite of the characters.  Seeing this change in her was unexpected and rather exciting, especially since I think the change was well-done and believable.  It's something I didn't predict, but all the pieces were in the previous chapters for it to make sense.

There were two things, however, that I did think were a little sudden.  Maybe it's just because I'm reading the chapters over such a long period of time.  First, Peprin's little speech seemed to come out of nowhere.  I don't seem to remember him saying anything particularly witty to Jewels or laughing with her, or coming up with a clever idea.  I had no clue that he could speak competently and boldly like that.  It also struck me that he has almost as much right as Vivenna to be bitter about the marriage situation.  Practically engaged to someone you'll never be able to marry?  He'd be smart to not fall in love with her (it would only lead to heartache), but he'd also be unable to court any girls at home, since they'd all know he was meant for Vivenna.  She might resent getting married off to the God-King, but I think he has every right to resent not being eligible for marriage for a long time.  I think that's also added motivation to go to Halladren: he couldn't court anyone in Idris. 

Second, Vasher at the end just appeared.  I seem to remember him mentioning the princess becoming a problem earlier, but I'm not sure if that's my imagination.  This one probably is just because of time-lag, but him being there startled me.  Then again, maybe it was supposed to startle me.

Once again, possibly the most fascinating chapter so far.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Swiggly on December 01, 2006, 02:37:02 AM
A CLIFFHANGER?!?!?!?!?!

You wretch!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on December 01, 2006, 05:46:51 AM
A CLIFFHANGER?!?!?!?!?!

Oh no!

WILL Vasher find an unlikely ally in Emo Goth Vivenna?
WILL Vivenna persuade the Hallandrens to attack The Pits of HathsinIdris after all, so as to get the Lifeless out of the city so that she can destroy Hallandren?
WILL Siri be embarrassingly naked (again) when Vivenna and Vasher burst in on her in order to murder Susebron with the incredible talking sword?
WILL Vivenna be about to kill Siri, before turning on Vasher at the last possible moment?
WILL alcohol-ichor burn if it catches on fire? Or will it explode?
WHAT will some wag imply that Jewels and Peprin are doing with Clod in private?

TUNE IN NEXT WEEK!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 02, 2006, 02:46:29 AM
Ok, I thought that Peprin was a little more vocal, but I noticed that throughout he spent a lot of time with Jewels vs. Vivenna, and he was more open with Jewels as well. I think that could have had something to do with his speaking up to Vivenna, and that is just what I attributed it to.

Vivenna, what to say about Vivenna? I think that she may turn out to be alright..... I guess I always had a hard time with her holiness until she came clean about the fact that she just wanted to be important again. I think that if she is going to be honest with herself, then there may be hope for her yet.

Vasher, gotta love a man with timing huh? Patience must be a heck of a virtue in that one. I figure he had to be lurking somewhere nearby waiting for them to come back, then lurking up there waiting on Vivenna to come up.....

I think this chapter has a lot of potential. Good job.....in my opinion. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on December 08, 2006, 10:39:39 PM
 ???Brandon, where are you I NEED the next chapter... THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME arghehhahr hohsf.

I hope your tour is going wonderfully though!  ;)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on December 09, 2006, 03:40:25 AM
???Brandon, where are you I NEED the next chapter... THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME arghehhahr hohsf.

I hope your tour is going wonderfully though!  ;)

As you command!

Chapter Thirty Six (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-036-1.0.doc)

I warn you, this is a Siri chapter.  Sorry!  We get back to Vivenna next week.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on December 09, 2006, 02:37:11 PM
I have to admit it--I'm a Siri fan, so I'm glad this is her chapter. I like the way her relationship and character are developing. Just a couple of questions that have been mulling around in my head--
During their conversations, why is Siri not worried that the priests are still listening in on her nightly visits? Is she still doing her "bump and grind" act? (and how does she explain that to Susebron?!) It seems like the priests would keep an ear on things until she is pregnant.

Also, how does Susebron eat with no tongue? I can see why he was taught he needed to take in only small pieces of food and eat slowly--wouldn't he choke if he were cramming whole pastries into his mouth?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on December 09, 2006, 07:24:43 PM
Also, how does Susebron eat with no tongue? I can see why he was taught he needed to take in only small pieces of food and eat slowly--wouldn't he choke if he were cramming whole pastries into his mouth?

At a guess, I'd say that immortal undead zombie gods are incapable of choking...what I'm wondering, though, is why Susebron would bother eating,  since he doesn't have to in order to survive, and with no tongue he wouldn't be able to taste any of the food he ate, so I can't imagine that it would be much fun.

Nice chapter, by the way!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 10, 2006, 07:10:16 PM
I don't know that his entire tongue has been cut out, just enough to keep him from speaking, if I had to guess I would say that is what happened. But we don't really have to guess do we??

Hey Brandon, is his whole tongue cut out, or just the front part of it, enough to keep him unable to speak?

By the way, I really like the fact that Susebron and Siri are getting closer, and that they seem to be taking their time with it. No rushing.... more real, I think. Good chapter too. :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Drerio on December 10, 2006, 10:00:43 PM
Also, how does Susebron eat with no tongue? I can see why he was taught he needed to take in only small pieces of food and eat slowly--wouldn't he choke if he were cramming whole pastries into his mouth?

Remember that most of taste is actually smell; hence, when you get a cold, it becomes more difficult to taste something.  Sadly, this would remove the ability to taste sugars, bitter and sweet things, but that is realy only a small portion of taste.

However, I too like the way Suri is progressing.  I think her characters maturation is out of necessity with a preservation of her free spirit.  I am curious how you are going to resolve the issue of them leaving, though.  Doesn't Susebron require weekly breath donations to survive like other returned?  He certainly would not receive these if he were to run off to Idris.

Also, I wonder if it might add to the effect of Susebron's writings if you were to include deliberate misspellings into his writings, particularly into words he has never before heard such as "flirtatous." 

I do have one problem with this chapter.  It seems awfully convenient that Susebron is nearly completely convinced that his benevolent preists will turn against him all of a sudden.  Wasn't it in the last Suri chapter that he was all but convinced that they could never kill their God-king?  Also, he said at the begining of this one that he had no desire to die and give up his breath?  So, why does he think he needs to run?  Are we to believe that Suri is just that charismatic or that she has such a hold on him?  I feel like we are missing a particularly good point that she used to convince him that she was right?  Or did I just miss when she made that point...

otherwise, I liked the chapter.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 11, 2006, 06:05:52 PM
I kind of feel like Susebron agreed to leave with her because he didn't think it would ever happen. Kind of like someone saying to you, "Don't pay the rent this month, the world is going to end in a week." And you replying, "Alright, I won't pay the rent," but then you go pay it anyway because you don't really believe that the world is going to end. Sort of. Bad example, I know, I just don't have a good enough imagination to have come up with something better.  :-[ I guess you could say he was just humoring her.

I like that Susebron can spell words even when he doesn't know them already. In my opinion, it shows that they teach him how to read and he remembers what he needs to know about spelling. But, for me spelling is a simple thing, and it always has been, but  I know it isn't that way for everyone. It may be just something that Gods know, but I don't know....

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on December 11, 2006, 07:42:03 PM
I don't know that his entire tongue has been cut out, just enough to keep him from speaking, if I had to guess I would say that is what happened.

If he had enough of his tongue left to swallow, he would be able to talk (it's amazing what the body can adapt to), but maybe not clearly enough to Awaken. Maybe the reason he doesn't talk is that those oh so concerned priests of his taught him not to even try to talk because it's not god-like to mumble!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 12, 2006, 04:01:43 AM
Good point Dragonfly. And he probably was taught very young not to attempt speech, either the hard way, or he just did as he was told because he was an obedient child. One way or the other, and it seems to have worked....
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on December 12, 2006, 03:52:49 PM
I thought the whole point of cutting out his tongue was to keep him from speaking (ie. giving commands that his priests couldn't "interpret" to suit their own ends)...if they had to teach him not to speak, why cut out his tongue in the first place?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 13, 2006, 08:05:42 AM
The point of teaching him to not attempt to speak would be if only a portion of his tongue was cut out, thereby leaving him able to eat and taste food, but not to be able to speak clearly. So, if  he did attempt to speak as a child, since you can learn how with a partial tongue it just wouldn't be clear, they would have had to teach him to not do it again.

But that is making a few assumptions about how they cut out his tongue. Such as assuming that they only cut out a portion of it and not the entire thing. I would think that it would  have to be done that way in order to allow him to be able to eat, but I am not sure about that, I don't know anyone who has had their tongue, or even part of their tongue, removed for any reason. I have heard of people who have had medical problems with tongues, or tongue cancer, but I don't know anyone like that so I don't really know how it works.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on December 13, 2006, 09:25:52 AM
Very useful, and interesting, discussion on that last one, folks.  Thank you for the comments and the questions.  It is helping me understand the things I should explain more.

New chapter, getting back to Vivenna.  This is kind of an important one....


Chapter Thirty Seven (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-037-1.0.doc)


This would be a good place to post a link to this thread (the first post of it) on any blogs or message boards you may frequent!  The more people we get reading, the better.

As always, you have my thanks. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on December 13, 2006, 06:31:58 PM
All I can say is WOW!   What a chapter! "Kind of important"? I think amazing and pivotal describes it better. The events in this chapter totally snuck up on me. I really enjoy reading a book like this--it's fun to have the time to speculate about where the author is heading. Thanks for letting us participate in the process, Brandon.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on December 14, 2006, 09:17:42 PM
Wow indeed.  That was interesting -- I did not see it coming!

It is fun being thrown a curveball like that, the thrill that comes from uncertainty about where the story is going.  I'm not sure what to make of the change of tone, but will wait and see what the next few chapters bring...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Windcall on December 15, 2006, 04:46:24 PM
YEAH!!

I knew it...Vasher is the (relatively speaking) good guy!!!  Thanks Mr. Sanderson...that chapter made my day! Vivenna is also (finally) getting less annoying and more interresting...she is DOING something, using her Breath, escaping , not once but twice...she really is getting into her own.

I can't wait for the rest...what is Vasher going to do?...and what was that between Vivenna and the sword? Maybe Vivenna high (if tedious) morals might finally come in handy to serve a purpose and protect her againt the sword bad influence?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 16, 2006, 06:19:02 AM
I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts yet, and sorry if I'm posting something that's already been discussed (if so, please give me a proper rebuke and tell me where I can find it), but I want to pose an idea (and Brandon... or Mr. Sanderson (which ever you chose to be called...) if I'm right, don't ruin it for us?  Not that you would... lololol.) Who else thinks that the dude who Vasher killed (and Denth says wasn't in a fair way...) is actually Lightsong?  I mean, think about it.  He knows how to interrogate people (look at when Tonk Fah and Denth first start quizzing Thame, and compair it.)  I'm pretty sure that if he played with a sword, he'd be the best anyone had ever seen.  Not sure what the point of the sea terms, and a few of the other things, but I mean, it does make sense... (and plus, it's so the style)

In regards to the chapter.... HOLY FREAKING BEYOND COW!!!  Poor Vivenna, having everything torn from her.  I hope though that she finds a way into the court of the Gods so that her and Siri can talk... they really need to have a LONG talk about everything.  (I could see Vivenna being one of the things that saves everything...)

Anywho, anyone else have thought on the whole Lightsong knowing Vasher and Denth and everything...?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 16, 2006, 07:36:06 AM
I have thought that since it was first mentioned, but I know that with writers the odds that you will get a straight answer on something that they are still working on is usually fairly slim, unless it isn't a super duper story twist. ;) So, I don't know if I every really stated outright that was what I thought. I know I mentioned that I thought Lightsong was more than he appeared, but I don't know if I mentioned that I thought he was Artsteel.

So, hello and welcome. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: DavidB on December 16, 2006, 08:35:29 AM
Rose,

I thought of that back on page 13, but MattD set me straight. It was a pretty short discussion; no wonder you didn't see it.

Quote from: davidb
I kind of halfways suspect he [Lightsong] was Arsteel, but I can't remember everything that's been said about that guy, so maybe it's impossible.

I had thought about this initially, too, but Lightsong has been a god for five years, and Arsteel's death was more recent.

It wouldn't surprise me if Peprin somehow dies for Vivenna -- you know, jumps in front of an arrow meant for her or something like that.

MattD

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 16, 2006, 08:45:30 AM
That is a very good point... excpet, I don't think it ever directly mentions when Artsteel died.  I'm willing to be wrong, but I also like my idea... lololol.  We'll have to read to find out.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 16, 2006, 08:05:23 PM
I don't remember an exact time being mentioned for his death either. Now I have to go back and read it again ;) Not that I mind that one little bit :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on December 16, 2006, 09:06:35 PM
From Chapter 19:

Quote
“Vasher,” Tonk Fah said.  “Killed a good friend of ours over in Yarn Dred a couple months back.  Denth used to have four people in his team.”
   “It shouldn’t have happened,” Jewels said.  “Arsteel was a brilliant duelist--almost as good as Denth himself.  Vasher’s never been able to beat either of them.  But, Arsteel died with a dueling blade through the chest.”

The "Lightsong as Arsteel" idea had been my initial hypothesis, too, but when I read this I knew it wouldn't work.

My next thought had been that Clod was Arsteel, that they had paid to have him made into a Lifeless after his death -- they seem to only have had Clod for a little while, there seems to be a connection between Jewels and Clod, and Clod is a better than average fighter.  But in Chapter 35, Denth says "considering what we paid for this guy, he’d better have been quite the soldier in life" -- indicating that they don't know who he is/was.  I wonder...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 16, 2006, 09:21:59 PM
Aw man... oh well... we shall just have to see who he was then to have "come back".  lololol.  And I was also thinking the Clod/Arsteel thing, but you just pointed out that it wouldn't work either... hm...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on December 16, 2006, 09:31:58 PM
As far as Lightsong goes, my only new speculation is that, with reference to his dreams of ships and a woman, we learn in Chapter 33 that the First Returned was a sailor and that he had a wife.  Of course, that was hundreds of years ago...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on December 16, 2006, 09:38:32 PM
Because of the way Jewels and Clod interact, I think he must have been someone she was close to--even her (dead?) husband. The reference to Clod's cost could be what it cost to resurrect him.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 16, 2006, 09:52:16 PM
Well, he also says "had better have been".  If he had know the guy in life it would have been more of a "for how good he was in life, he was worth the money to have." type thing.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 17, 2006, 10:57:13 AM
I never even considered Clod/Artsteel, and I am usually an author conspiracy nut ;) I wonder how I missed it, even though it doesn't really seem to fit.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on December 17, 2006, 03:53:11 PM
As annoying as it might be to us conspiracy nuts, it's also possible that Denth was simply lying (or least least being misdirecting) about Clod.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 17, 2006, 07:24:34 PM
This is true...  I wonder what they're going to do now that he's been used against them...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on December 18, 2006, 04:57:09 AM
This is true...  I wonder what they're going to do now that he's been used against them...

That reminds me, one small continuity thing I noticed with the last chapter: Denth seems surprised that Vivenna knows the command phrase for Clod, but he and Tonk Fah were both there when Jewels used it in front of Vivenna a few chapters previous.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 18, 2006, 09:59:54 AM
I think that can be explained away by thinking that she wouldn't know what it was, or thinking that she didn't hear it. But it has been a bit since I read that chapter. Did they mention it after it was used, like her asking what it was, or anything like that?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 18, 2006, 09:51:46 PM
No, she didn't.  I think you're right about the freaking out about her hearing it, but I think he's more shocked that she knew how to use it, and realized that's what it was.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on December 21, 2006, 03:00:49 AM
MattD:  Good catch.  I noticed that one myself, and was toying with what to do about it.  I think I'd rather Vivenna overhear the phrase covertly somehow, to give this scene more punch.  It's either that, or make Denth less surprised.  What do you guys think?

New chapter: 
Chapter Thirty Eight (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-038-1.0.doc)


Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 21, 2006, 03:22:52 AM
I think that she should hear Jewels use it, as I think  she did, and not say anything about it, and nobody noticed in the first place, if I remember correctly. So, it should be kind of an easy fix with that.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 21, 2006, 04:55:09 AM
I think you should have it be the same, but have his comment be less of "you let her hear".  Still have him be suprised.  I would think he would be more shocked that she was willing to use a lifeless.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 21, 2006, 05:22:31 AM
Has anyone thought about the idea of one of the band that works with Vivenna was the one that followed Vasher into Mercystar's palace?  I was just thinking about that... maybe a double agent...

thoughts?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 21, 2006, 06:02:19 PM
I had thought of that, but it would be very difficult to do, unless it was Jewels or Clod. Someone with any breath would be felt by Vasher, but he has the same problem as others so with feeling Lifeless and those without their Breath. They kind of just don't show up on the radar. The others have their Breath so he would have felt them, and if they were following Vasher I don't think that they were working with him, just seeing what he was up to. Just my opinion though, I guess we will have to wait a bit to see what Brandon has planned for that bit :)

As for Lightsong, I still have the feeling that there is something there that we are missing.....more specifically I guess, that I am missing something. But I love the Lightsong chapters for their self-deprecating humor, and the fact that he has some of the most fascinating dreams. Like you are going to get a glimpse, but it eludes you.....but you keep looking just in case....Very nice.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 21, 2006, 10:01:57 PM
I know what you're saying about missing something.  I think that last dream had to do with his old life... and how he died (but that's my thought.)

And remember, we didn't see what happened after Vasher let the squarl escape, and we don't kn0w how far behind the other one was?  What if they had breaths, followed,  and got in a fight in the tunnels?  Lightsong hasn't gone down there after all...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 22, 2006, 05:21:47 PM
Just a few thoughts/hypothesis...

I actually like Denth's surprise at Vivenna hearing the Command and like to see it kept.  She has used her breath once and knows that there are commands period it is not that big of a leap that as intelligent (thought naive) as Vivenna is that she could begin to make that connection. 

As far as Lightsong goes.... well the similarities of the beginning of the war some what 300 years before and his memories well could he have been one of the ships captains back then?  I know too long but they are Returned would it be reasonable to consider that the Returned give their lives for one and then is reborn in another body to eventually die (doing whatever heroic thing that they do, whatever purpose it is that drives them to Return) and become a Returned again?  They don't remember anything (typically) death is a harsh thing to endure and thus causing a shock to the body to prevent the memory but Lightsong now dwells so much on this he is putting peices together towards that obviously.

Or we drop that whole concept and he is a Seer as they think he is and he is seeing a second coming of such a horrid war and will see that until something takes a sharp turn to negate/change what he is seeing.  The future is flexible is it not?

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 22, 2006, 08:47:48 PM
Yes, the future is a flexible thing. That being said.... I don't think that Lightsong is a seer in the traditional sense of the word. I think that he is from outside of Hallendren, and as such could be seeing things that have happened elsewhere. As a crewman or a captain of a ship he would have had the opportunity to be in a battle, as the seas can be very dangerous, and he would have had the opportunity to be near Hallendren, or even in it, when he was killed and then Returned. Pure speculation on my part, but it makes a certain kind of sense to me in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Dominique Demille on December 22, 2006, 10:03:25 PM
Sorry for the silence, I've not been able to think of much way to contribute. However, I would like to cast my vote on the matter currently discussed. Although its been said, I would prefer if Vivenna heard the code on accident, and no one were knew until she used it. The fury of not realizing she'd heard it until too late would definitely make for a bit more interesting escape, especially when combining it with the fact that she's stepping down from her high and mighty pedestal.

I'm not too good at the whole mystery solving thing, so I'll just have to wait and see what's going on with both Vasher (dying to know) and Lightsong. Who is he? What will he find in the tunnels? Who followed Vasher? And what plans did Vasher have that the Princess is ruining? Tune in next week, and the week after, and the week after....  ;D Great story so far. I'm thoroughly impressed especially considering its only your second draft.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 22, 2006, 10:07:08 PM
I think that the death time is exactly as it's been stated, which is five years ago.  How else could Llarimar who knew him in life still be alive if he was the original God King or 300 years old?  No, he's exactly as he seems to be in that sense.  However, I can't help but feel there really is SOMETHING we're missing about him...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 23, 2006, 07:30:34 AM
I feel the same way about him, and Vasher as well.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 23, 2006, 04:28:13 PM
Agreed on Vasher.

Lightsong is a puzzle but I feel very much like he will choose to give his breath to save another but I don't think it will be one of his petitioners.  Though i could be wrong.

As for the the God King he is not 300 yrs old,  only 50, with a the prospect of a child being born stillborn and the God King dying so closely after seems to me to mean he gives his breath to save the life of his child.  The problem is HOW if he cannot speak?  But Denth and Vivenna has given us some clues to how seeing how instinctively she was able to use her breath.  He gave her hints that she could focus strongly to give the command direction before speaking it, perhaps Susebron can do that and not have to speak it with as much breath as he holds? 

Just speculation...

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 23, 2006, 08:47:47 PM
That idea about Lightsong not giving it to a petitioner is going to prove very accurate.  The question is which of the group is he going to give it to?  I would love to see Susebron lose his breaths, and then Lightsong give his to the king... but then again I'm kind of a hopeless romantic and don't want to see Siri live without him if she is falling for him.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 23, 2006, 11:48:08 PM
I whole heartedly agree with saving Susebron, not even for just Siri's sake but for his own. 

Thing is here we are going into section four.  Doesn't even seem like there is time for a child to be born with the quick pace thus far. Especially, since Siri and Susebron haven't tangoed.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 24, 2006, 09:22:54 AM
Personally, I'm not seeing a kid until the very end... if it's mentioned at all in the book.  (I'm kind of glad about the lack of super-personal time.  It's letting us readers get to know their love... and prove you can be in love without that.)

And I had never thought of how Susebron's death would effect the Iridescent Colors until you're post... *thinks*
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on December 24, 2006, 12:22:50 PM
How's this for some  far-out speculation: Lightsong uses his breath to heal Susebron's tongueless state, and Susebron weighs in on the Idrian side of the war.   :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on December 24, 2006, 04:27:29 PM
How's this for some  far-out speculation: Lightsong uses his breath to heal Susebron's tongueless state, and Susebron weighs in on the Idrian side of the war.   :)

If you take a look at page 11 of this thread, you'll see user joevans3 had the same thought, which we kicked the tires on a bit.

I did notice in the recent chapter how it was casually mentioned that Susebron has the command codes for the Lifeless armies (although I'd wonder whether the priests would really tell him).

As far as the Denth/Vivenna question...it certainly would be a little more dramatic if Denth is not aware that Vivenna knows the command code for Clod.  However, it's also believable to me that in the obvious chaos and panic of their search for Vivenna, they simply wouldn't think to change the code, especially given Vivenna's "I want nothing to do with them" attitude toward the Lifeless.  If Vivenna can covertly overhear the command code without it feeling forced or contrived, so much then the better; but it is not to my tastes necessary.  The nice thing about the idea of Vivenna covertly overhearing something is that some hints could be dropped at the same time about other mysteries -- who is Clod, why is Jewels so connected to him, etc. -- and in that way camouflage the importance of Vivenna hearing the command code.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 24, 2006, 06:06:17 PM
I don't think that anyone noticed when Jewels used the command code in front of Vivenna for the very reason that dreamking 47 just posted, she was so opposed to their use that they probably couldn't ever imagine a time when she would use them, or Clod specifically. I really don't think that whole section needs to be rewritten, maybe just a tweak or two to make it flow a little bit better. Nothing specific that I can think of right now, sorry about that. I thought that it went pretty well myself.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 24, 2006, 10:48:45 PM
The thing is not much more than a page had passed after Vivenna asked Denth to teach her how to use her breath, before Jewels used the command on Clod.

Quote
She (Vivenna) nodded.  “Teach me.”
   To the side Jewels got out a small pump and stuck a small hose into Clod’s shoulder, into a little clasp that had apparently been designed for the purpose.  She began to pump the Ichor-alcohol into the veins, moving the pump very slowly, probably in order to keep from bursting the veins.
   “Well,” Denth said, “there are a lot of commands.  However, if you want to bring a rope to life--like that one you tried to use back in the alleyway--a good Commmnad is ‘hold things.’  Speak it with a clear voice, willing your Breath to act.  (pg. 200-201 Warbreaker part 3)

Vivenna is actively thinking about using her breath and has committed herself, even though she doesn't have much to go on; however, as I said before, Denth gave her a very important clue. *see above quote*  When I think of Vivenna she is not a girl that does things halfway, not once she decides she is going to do something.  Then she figures out how to use her breath successfully and the intelligent woman that she is applies it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on December 27, 2006, 11:24:01 PM
All right, back to Vivenna:

New chapter: 
Chapter Thirty Nine (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-039-1.0.doc)

I wonder, is this turn of events (in the last few chapters) with Vivenna too clichéd?  I've seen some things like this occasionally in books, but I went ahead and did it anyway because it really seemed to fit what I wanted for her character.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 28, 2006, 01:15:00 AM
EUOL,

Do you mean the fact that everything was going along swimmingly and then taking everything away and throwing her into dispair; thus, forcing her to have to find a new way to handle her agenda and forcing her to be self-sufficient? 

It is a bit of a device, but that learning curve would have to come in from somewhere for her to grow as a character.  Which I think needs to happen (the growth as a character), because she is the one character that I've connected with the least. 

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 28, 2006, 01:39:47 AM
I think it's a great idea.  It would have been too clichéd if she were to suddenly have a perfect understanding of breaths, and were run into someone who helped her, and she was compleatly fine.  But where she's compleatly devistated, and can't even do some of the things she's done since birth because of the shock.  Nah, I think it's fine...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on December 28, 2006, 03:27:56 AM
First, I got the impression that Lightsong was Idrian. Maybe he was one of them in the city or something, but they aren't all in the slums right? I mean, there are Idrians in the normal society... That would explain why he doesn't believe that he is devine and why he doesn't care for being a god very much...?

I think Vivena being betrayed was a good twist because it raises the question of whether or not Vasher is bad, which I personally never wanted him to be. I'm not sure why I figured he was a good guy all along but I liked him. I still don't get why Vasher needed to kidnap her though because she wasn't really doing anything in halendren anyway, nobody was listening to her. He just wanted her breath?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 28, 2006, 04:13:04 AM
Lightsong an Idrian..... hmmm possibly. So then his visions/dreams/flashes of memory are foretelling what is to come?

Well, Vasher could find/steal/buy breaths just about anywhere in Hallendren to kidnap Vivenna for the soul purpose of stealing her breath is a bit thin.  Especially, since he can acquire it with ease had he wanted too.  But he is not the type to do things that are easy.  In chapter one he got himself arrested to get the breath of the man, Pahn, and kill him.  Seems there was more to that than we currently know.  But again my point is he raised the difficulty level for the want of breath alone... I don't think so.  There is more to him than that.

Denth hates him and not for just killing his friend and perhaps Denth/Vivenna's plans are working against Vasher's he takes her out of the picture all that much easier for him.  Not that he was successful, but that's just foreshadowing for you.  There is so much more that can happen for good or ill.

Though, Vasher gives off mixed vibes on the good or bad thing.  Doing the right thing for all the wrong reasons, perhaps?  Does he have to be good or bad?   I mean at first I was all ready to hate Susebron and you cannot help but feel compassion for the man... oops God King.  Not something I had anticipated - loved that twist.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 28, 2006, 05:01:59 AM
I had wondered about Lightsong being an Idrian myself, but was thinking that it wouldn't work because they let their returned die.  However, for him to have been in the slums, that makes a lot of sense.  It explains how he was found, and like you said amyface why he hates the Iridescent tones.

I was just re-reading through the chapter where she was betrayed, and I noticed that this comment is there:

Quote
He couldn’t have died from sickness, she (Vivenna) realized.  Or from old age.  Austre!

Does that mean when someone has reached the third heightening or higher they become immortal themselves and aren't susceptible to everyday illnesses?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on December 28, 2006, 06:28:04 PM
I wonder, is this turn of events (in the last few chapters) with Vivenna too clichéd?  I've seen some things like this occasionally in books, but I went ahead and did it anyway because it really seemed to fit what I wanted for her character.

Do you mean Vivenna's general riches-to-rags transformation, her crisis of faith, and/or the betrayal?

I think that fantasy is always a high wire act of balancing archetypes without falling into clichés.  If you have a character who is a Princess and you want her to change and grow, well, you can send her to another country with different customs (check), and/or either she moves upward in social station and becomes a Queen (like Siri) or she has to fall down the social ladder somewhat (like Vivenna).  I don't think any of those are clichés: they're all at their heart primal situations that many readers will be familiar with from their own lives.  Likewise with matters of trust and betrayal, likewise with questions of certainty and faith.  Clichés come in more with the details of those situations and how your characters deal with them.  The Siri/Susebron chapters have actually felt more in danger of falling into cliché than the Vivenna chapters to me so far, but I can't really judge either until I see how the story ends.

MattD

P.S. One more small continuity thing: in chapter 38, Lightsong says that the Lifeless squirrel Vasher used in Mercystar's dwelling has had its blood replaced with ichor-alcohol; this contradicts what was said in chapter 24, where it is said "it had blood instead of ichor alcohol."
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 28, 2006, 07:06:46 PM
The breaths extend life and health so I am thinking it means that Lemks was poisoned, likely very slowly to torture him by Denth and his cronies.  Remember what he said that sounded a bit like lunacy, because he did not realize it was Vivenna speaking to him at their first meeting.
Quote
“Can’t fool me,” the old man (Lemks) whispered, eyes still unfocused.  “Your torture is nothing to me.  I won’t give it up.  Not to you.”
He would not give up his breath not to just anyone.  Only, once he realized it was Vivenna there he eventually gave it to her.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 28, 2006, 11:34:43 PM
It now makes sense that those comments, which at the time just seemed crazy, would actually be something useful.

I still feel like there's something about that comment.  If it just improve heath and prolong life, then she wouldn't have thought what she did.  Maybe I'm just crazy...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on December 29, 2006, 03:21:29 PM
Though had Lemks been given time there is a possibility(with no further tampering) he might have recovered but because he gave up his breaths his death was instantaneous.  Had he not given up his breath there is a chance he could have survived.  So, Vivenna thinking that is not so surprising.  I think she is realizing that fact, maybe not that he was poisoned, specifically, but she has to see that Lemks did not only give up his breath but his life as well when he gave them to her. 

That is what I read in the impact of that statement.  She is piecing together the betrayal and is beginning to see how deep it really goes.  That it began long before she ever arrived.  Denth confirms this. They even warned her over and over never trust a mercenary but she trusted that because they were paid that they would do as she bade.  Lemks couldn't make bad choices (in her opinion he was to be trusted) and she deferred to them.  She was desperate for help and took what she could her naivete cost her greatly in depending upon them. 

Now, she's hit is rock bottom, there is no where to go but up, right?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Dominique Demille on December 31, 2006, 05:13:58 PM
This last chapter has raised a couple of questions that I hope are eventually answered. Seeing as how Vivenna can invest her breath in the shawl to keep it safe, is it possible for her to invest only a small portion? For example, could she get multiple small wooden dolls and invest them with 1 breath each? Taking this a step further, could she then give away the breaths one at a time, pulling the breath out of the next doll to do so? The reason I ask, is because Vivenna is a smart girl, but (like your readers) doesn't know everything about BioChroma, and since she had previously desired to give the breaths to drabs, it is something she might think about. If it isn't possible, why not?

Also, have you explored the possiblity of underground slave markets? The selling of children for their breaths? I recognize this is a more light hearted book, however, in such a society where breaths are a valuable "currency", there are always those who will take advantage of the weak willed and gullible. "Orphanages" that raise children until the point where they can say those vital words, and stealing their breath, or selling the child to the highest bidder for their breath. (That way the orphanage is not responsible for what happens to the child after its sold.) Vivenna is in the perfect position to stumble across a black market like this if one exists.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on December 31, 2006, 09:31:25 PM
The black market thing is an intresting idea, but I doubt it would be done.  Don't know though...

As for the breaths idea, I don't think it would work because if you were to do that I don't think you could get them back... then again, maybe you could.  I guess we'll have to wait and see...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: U-Boat on January 01, 2007, 01:40:23 AM
How long would it take for every chapter to be released?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spriggan on January 01, 2007, 03:44:52 AM
about a year, he does one a week and I think there's around 50+ chapters, so at least another 10-15 weeks is my guess.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 01, 2007, 05:32:43 AM
Holy cow!!!  I didn't know that it was that long!!!  Yeah for long books!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: U-Boat on January 01, 2007, 05:53:14 AM
D.Demile, I recall reading somewhere in the book that it's an all or nothing deal with Breaths. So she has to give them all (which she did), or give none. Can't give individual Breaths unless you only have one.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 01, 2007, 08:21:47 AM
Well, that's in giving it away to someone.  You can only give away a few breath to objects to command them... but the question is, can you use a command like "Hold breaths"?  If so, then you could apply them to a whole bunch of dolls and then retreave it...  If not, you'd have to tell them to do something, and then retreave them.  Just having the dolls hold your breaths though and then hide them until you want to retreave them... unless you can do a command like that, I don't think so.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spriggan on January 01, 2007, 09:12:03 AM
Holy cow!!!  I didn't know that it was that long!!!  Yeah for long books!

EUOL's first drafts are always really long then they get cut back as editing happens.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Dominique Demille on January 01, 2007, 03:57:59 PM
If she can place her breath in a shawl for safe holding, I don't yet see why it has to be all of it. You can use partial breath to awaken something. Perhaps it would require a great deal of control, however, so far it sounds possible. Just wanted to bring it up, so that we could get some clarification in the story itself if its not possible. I'm not entirely expecting it to be, but it is a concern some other readers might have that will leave them scratching their heads if it isn't explained.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 01, 2007, 10:08:15 PM
Well, with the command she did to get her breaths into her shawl, it's an all or nothing deal.  Awakening things requires a certin number of breaths to do a certian number of things (kind of like you need a certin amount of money to buy something, you "buy" the abilty to awaken something with breaths), so thus unless you can do a "hold breaths" comand, it would be all or nothing, or make them do something until you can retreave the breaths.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 02, 2007, 12:49:13 AM
Well, in the 'hold breaths' command is as good as what she has already done giving the breath to the object with no command, or so it seems to me. Vivenna just doesn't know how to retireve them yet.  So, she can hold onto the shawl/rug and rope until she discovers this and she is the only one that can retrieve them.  That was basically stated in the first chapter with Vasher as he animated the straw figure and cloak, when we first learn of awakening and the use of breath.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: augenschein on January 03, 2007, 04:20:45 PM
I've discovered this book I think last summer already and been reading the first chapters back then but due to my studies had no time to keep reading it. I have now used three days of my short break wisely enough on catching up. I enjoyed it a lot.

First off, I am glad you cut Mab out of joining up with Siri. It felt to be needless (I know that sounds wrong but I cannot think ofa bett. Yet in the draft there is a small discontinuity error you might have already changed. I am not sure. Siri sends guards in the 2.0 version twice back. Once before she enters the palace and the second time she tells Bluefingers to order them to return to Idris.

Lightsong is my favourite character from the first time he appeared. The way he questions his divinity and tries to figure out who he was paired with his sarcasm... I love reading about him and am looking for more! What puzzles me though is his priest Llarimar. He seems so fiercefully loyal to Lightsong. Is he then different from the priests that are using Susebron as puppet and not involved in whatever goes on with the priests? His loyality is certainly interesting and makes me wonder hard who Lightsong used to be and his connection with Llarimar in his former life.

Vivena suffered in the last chapters an awful lot and it all happened in such a short time to her. However two things puzzled me. First, I think I saw this mentioned already, that Denth was surprised she knew how to change the commands on Clod. He sat right next to her just a couple of hours prior to that event when Jewels repaired Clod and he was explaining Awakening to her. She is not stupid so she well know what that meant. Denth should have left by then or have been preoccupied so he would have missed it.

Second when she finds the safehouse, why didn't they wonder about her trying to hide in the safehouse? Why didn't they question her wounds at her hands from the binding? I mean both were obvious reasons to doubt their own fear of her having found them out.

However, I am a bit sorry for Denth betraying her. He and Tonk Fah are such enjoyable characters with their brutal humour Denth's almost fatherly patience towards Vivena. Their storyline promises to be very interesting.

 ;) annie
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: U-Boat on January 03, 2007, 10:37:47 PM
Regarding Denth and Tonk, I never understood why they didn't just betray her as soon as they saw her and she had taken the breaths.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Swiggly on January 03, 2007, 10:46:05 PM
Oh that just broke my heart. Oh my god....poor Vivena. I mean, she just escaped from whatshisface. I keep calling him Kelsier even though theres like no similarities between the two characters. It'll come to me...anyway- she escapes from the guy with the killer sword and then two people she thought were her friends betrayed  her completely and killed her best friend. Isn't that just horrible? You better not edit that out, Brandon; it was such a great chapter.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on January 04, 2007, 01:20:35 AM
Regarding Denth and Tonk, I never understood why they didn't just betray her as soon as they saw her and she had taken the breaths.

They never really betrayed her exactly. She was technically being kidnapped the whole time she just didn't know it. I'm sure we will find out why they needed control of her later in the book. They wanted to keep her trust for some reason too, that's why they didn't just tie her up and force her to give them her breaths. Perhaps she was a good keeper for the breaths at this time because they didn't think she would ever use them against the crew, maybe... and the breaths wouldn't draw attention to Denth and Tonk?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Dominique Demille on January 04, 2007, 02:34:51 AM
Well we now know that they could hide their breaths anyhow, as Vivenna just did, so I don't see how not drawing attention to themselves with extra breath would be a very valid reason for letting Vivenna carry them. <shrug> Perhaps I'm missing part of the picture, which wouldn't surprise me. But then there's the secondary part where the breaths were an after thought for Denth. Only after she tried to use them to protect herself did he remember them before killing her. (Allowing her precious time and speaking space to save herself... how ironic.)

However, was there going to be a new chapter today? I'm anxious to know what's going on, in all parts of the story. But if you're taking a break for the holidays, I understand.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spriggan on January 04, 2007, 02:48:55 AM
I'm sure there will be sometime, EUOL runs on his own time schedule which means a wensday post could be Tursday at 1am.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on January 04, 2007, 02:52:22 AM
Well we now know that they could hide their breaths anyhow, as Vivenna just did, so I don't see how not drawing attention to themselves with extra breath would be a very valid reason for letting Vivenna carry them. <shrug>

Maybe they were trying to draw attention to her for some reason... I'm not sure. I'm not very good at speculation...

I also think the crew and vasher are all trying to stop or encourage the war too so I'm sure their involvement with vivenna and um... the dead guy, what was his name?... They could be responsible for some of the rumors of the upcoming war.  I can't wait to find out how all this fits together...

Also, why does blushweaver yell at Siri? That has been a few chapters back but I don't think she actually believes that siri is sleeping with lightsong... she just doesn't like Siri? I meant to ask about this but never got to it...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on January 04, 2007, 03:12:22 AM
I'm sure there will be sometime, EUOL runs on his own time schedule which means a Wednesday post could be Thursday at 1am.

Yes, Sprig is quite right.  However, bugging me does bring things about faster.  Probably won't post this on my blog for a few hours yet, but I'll throw it up here early.

New chapter: 
Chapter Forty (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-040-1.0.doc)

Lots of good speculation and questions, as always.  I hesitate to answer any because your speculation and wondering is exactly the kind of feedback I need.  Let me just say that we will get (in the next couple of chapters) more insight into what Denth and Vasher are both doing.

Llarimar's loyalty will be addressed.

The Denth knows that Vivenna knows the commands error will be fixed in the next draft.  Thank you all for your help.  (I'm going to have her hear it more circumspectly.)

Good point, augenschein, about the wounds on Vivenna's hands.  I'll have to think about that one. 

Breath going into objects is different than going into people.  When you give away Breaths permanently, you have to give them all up--since your Breath keeps pouring into the person, without hitting a barrier.  When you give them to an object, the number it takes to fulfill the Command is automatically drawn out.  Once you hit the point that the object is 'alive' enough to do what you Command, your breaths stop being sucked out.  So, with the right Commands, you can indeed stick Breaths into something and 'store' them.  Many people in the story have been abusing this ability (like the person who followed Vasher into the palace.  They needed to lose their Breaths first so they couldn't be sensed.)  Does that make sense and does it need to be explained more?

Can anyone answer amy's question about Blushweaver?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 04, 2007, 05:36:04 AM
Can anyone answer amy's question about Blushweaver?

I assumed it was a combination of genuine jealousy/cattiness and, well, if I saw an Idrian Princess frequently chatting up one of the Returned Gods who happened to have the command words for part of the Lifeless armies, I'd certainly be worried that said Princess was trying to manipulate the Returned God into doing something not in the best interest of Hallandren.  Especially if I was the Returned Goddess who'd been quietly trying to gather control of the Lifeless armies myself to further my own plans (and indeed seemed to be one of the driving forces behind the conflict) and didn't want a chief ally to be suborned by the enemy.  But that's just speculation.

Blushweaver does get my vote as likeliest employer of Denth, though it sounds like we'll find out soon enough what's going on there.  I also have to wonder whether Siri and Vivenna's father isn't going to have some surprise role by the end of the story: he's been way too quiet.

Edit: as far as Denth and Vivenna's hands...it seemed to me that Denth was seriously panicking by then (witness Peprin) so not sure he would have noticed her hands.  I am hoping that why Denth loses his cool to the degree that he does will be explained...either in terms of what they were doing with Vivenna/what he thought happened, or just as a character trait, is he someone who freaks out when his plans go awry?

I'm also still trying to figure out why they tortured the parrot...that was just so wrong.  :o

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 04, 2007, 03:57:16 PM
Well after seeing Vasher use the lifeless squirrel it makes me wonder if there is not intent with all of Tonk Fah's deceased pets to have eventually played a similar role for Denth had he been able to control Vivenna and her breath.  What a better place to place the breath in the first place in an unwitting hostage.  He played to her emotions and political/religious stance.  It almost seems as if he might have been behind the initial attack in the slums.  He tells his employer or just rats her out to the Hallendren Guard, so he can show her she cannot afford to not use her breath, because she has effectively held the breath hostage on him.  To me it seems he was trying to inspire her. Then he could manipulate her into using her breath to get done what he wants to happen. 

If in fact we suppose Denth's employer is Blushweaver.   She is trying to gather the lifeless codes why would she allow/order Denth to work against her own armies?  Unless like everything else Denth has done that was all part of the rouse. But we also have to remember that the lifeless need less to sustain them than a normal person so her thus her need for the lifeless codes. 

(I know asked and answered, but does anyone have thoughts on this?)

Allmother won't give Blushweaver the codes and Lightsong has made a vague alliance with Blushweaver but does not hand over his codes nor lay with her.  Lightsong is manipulating her even as she tried to move him.  There is more going on here. 

And where was Vasher going when he stole his way in to the tunnels in Mercystar's palace? Who killed the servant? Because I seriously don't think it was him.


Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 04, 2007, 04:56:20 PM
If in fact we suppose Denth's employer is Blushweaver.   She is trying to gather the lifeless codes why would she allow/order Denth to work against her own armies?

It seemed to me that Denth's limited actions have done far more to foment war with Idris (Blushweaver's apparent desire) than to actually hurt the Hallendren armies (edit: who are Lifeless and don't need salt-preserved food).  How much easier is it to get support for war when you can point to terrorist actions taken by your enemy, their own Princess in your city trying to rally people against the Returned Gods, etc.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on January 04, 2007, 07:07:32 PM
Quote
Also, why does blushweaver yell at Siri? That has been a few chapters back but I don't think she actually believes that siri is sleeping with lightsong... she just doesn't like Siri? I meant to ask about this but never got to it...

I was re-reading part one today, looking at it in light of some of the discussions that have been ongoing--I found quite a few "AHA" moments. Anyways, towards the end of chapter 8, Blushweaver's conversation with Lightsong provides some insight into why Blushweaver is so paranoid about Siri and her motives.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 04, 2007, 09:03:08 PM
Another potentially related thing to consider is that it's quite possible that Blushweaver (and indeed other Returned) know who Lightsong was before he Returned.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Swiggly on January 04, 2007, 09:38:05 PM
And, thus- the orgin of the Title is revealed!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 05, 2007, 12:14:56 AM
Good Point, Matt.  You said it much better -- clearer than I and made the point sharper.  But this is still much supposition saying that Denth is in Blushweaver's pay.  Which brings up an even bigger question of HOW did Denth know that Vivenna was in Hallendren?  I think I need to reread part 1 again.

Why do I have this itching desire for things to blow up in Blushweaver's face. If in fact she is the one orchestrating things.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 05, 2007, 12:20:06 AM
But this is still much supposition saying that Denth is in Blushweaver's pay.

Yes, totally -- could be something/someone completely different.  I just tend to think out loud and share my current speculations because EUOL said it was helpful for him to know what we're thinking as we read the chapters.

Quote
Why do I have this itching desire for things to blow up in Blushweaver's face. If in fact she is the one orchestrating things.

Yes -- although the bit where Blushweaver goes off on Siri was interesting as it really does seem like she cares for Lightsong, which in turn makes me respect and care for her a little more.  One of the things I like about Warbreaker so far is that it's all about shades of grey, nobody seems entirely right or entirely wrong, entirely sympathetic or entirely objectionable.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on January 05, 2007, 12:28:20 AM
I was wondering the same thing about Vivenna's kidnapping.  Denth and company obviously had an assignment that involved Lemks, so when they found out from him that she was coming, I imagine they informed their employer and were told to intercept and control her.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 05, 2007, 07:36:18 AM
Something that's been playing at my mind for a bit is why does he automatically assume she ran away?  He knew that Vasher was watching her, and the best way for your enemy's plans to go down the drain (or at least have a major set-back) is to take away their best weapon.  What does he have going on that he thinks would make her run away?

I'm also still trying to figure out why they tortured the parrot...that was just so wrong. :o

MattD

I think that was mostly to show a character trait.  If you think about it the monkey was also tortured, so my thought has always been just that it's something he does... he gets bored with a pet so he tortures them.  I mean, it's implied that he can't keep animals around for long in the garden, and by the way it's said, I think that the animals never "run away".
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: U-Boat on January 05, 2007, 10:51:55 AM
I'm impressed, I've only discerned 3 spelling/grammar mistakes in the text so far.

Of course, I'm skimming it rather quickly.  ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 05, 2007, 04:11:02 PM
I think it was a way to show a character trait as well but there is so much more that could be done especially since he kept his dead critters.  I mean it was heinous enough that he tortured them, but there is potential.  Plus, he has had to keep his hands to himself with Vivenna thus far if they re-capture her imagine what he could do or try to do. And now Peprin is dead and still in their hands.  I wonder how expensive or easy it is to get someone to create a lifeless?

Quote
Something that's been playing at my mind for a bit is why does he automatically assume she ran away?  He knew that Vasher was watching her, and the best way for your enemy's plans to go down the drain (or at least have a major set-back) is to take away their best weapon.  What does he have going on that he thinks would make her run away?

In that scene Denth is jumping to conclusions not only about her running away but about her hearing the command codes.  In one he is right and one part wrong.  But If my unwitting hostage departed with no evidence or by your leave about it.  I think I'd be in a small panic and not thinking clearly.  Making those leaps whether right or wrong are well within human emotion and don't necessarily have to have clear thinking behind them. 

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 05, 2007, 08:08:26 PM
I'm also still trying to figure out why they tortured the parrot...that was just so wrong. :o

I think that was mostly to show a character trait.  If you think about it the monkey was also tortured, so my thought has always been just that it's something he does... he gets bored with a pet so he tortures them.

Oh, I agree -- I wasn't seriously wondering, just making fun of my own constant questioning and Vivenna's naiveté.  It was a surprise.  Tonk Fah always had a certain bloodthirstiness about him, though, as the line in my signature indicates. 

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on January 06, 2007, 12:30:05 AM
I thought the torturing of the animals was to try to get peprin to talk. I think I might give in to animals being tortured quicker than torture to myself... maybe not... I hope to never find out.

I don't think he would use them as lifeless after they had been tortured... wouldn't he want corpses in good shape for that?

It still bugs me that peprin died. I liked him.    >:(
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 06, 2007, 01:55:34 AM
I was just suggesting that they use them as lifeless out of convenience.  Vile as that is I understand fully Vivenna's repulsion to the concept of the lifeless.  Of course, it makes me sick to see a little beastie that has been hit by a car, I couldn't imagine doing it purposefully as Tonk Fah did.  Gah! Bleh!

On to Chapter 40, I have to admit Siri was quite brave in playing her cards the way she did with the High Priest, Tridees.  That was a real chance to take and could still have serious repercussions.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on January 06, 2007, 06:53:51 PM
I agree with you on that point Pterath. I think that she made a bold move, and it really could go either way for her, so in that respect it was also a risky move. I personally think that it was better than doing nothing, and just pretending that things were not ever going to come to that point. There are only so many months that you can get away with the whole charade in the bedroom with nothing to show for it though, so in this I am hoping that it doesn't backfire on her, at least not too much. I don't expect her to get it right the first time, court intrigue that is, but it would be nice if it didn't get her killed. ;)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 07, 2007, 06:46:04 AM
I have just discovered Warbreaker a few days ago and have acquired an obsession for it.  Does it go away?  I'm not sure whether I want it to.

A few ideas/points:

If a war begins, Susebron's Breaths could give him enough power to put a stop to it (I think he's an Awakener not a Returned) if he still had his tongue.  One of the Returned could sacrifice themselves to heal him; perhaps this would be a heroic second death to match Lightsong's first?  We all know Brandon's habit of killing one main character.

Vivenna's Breaths can't be what Denth is after because he refused to accept in chapter 13.

I did not think Vivenna's escape from Denth and his cronies was very plausible, so I though of another way it could have happened: Tonk Fah and Denth could notice the cuts on her wrist and AFTER they surprise her in the basement, and them realize that she had been kidnapped; they also realize that Peprin's body would be difficult to explain and that they have just missed an opportunity to increase her trust and instead revealed themselves.  Perhaps one of them had realized earlier that Vivenna might not have left willingly and had opposed torturing Peprin.  Then they say 'i told you so' and an argument begins.  This would give Vivenna plenty of time to order Clod to attack and flee in the confusion.

Pterath: what you think Denth would WANT Peprin as a Lifeless?  They only have the skills they had in life, which is not much in Peprin's case.

We don't know that the person who followed Vasher into Mercystar's palace hid his BioCroma; he may not have had any.

I think that Blushweaver is doing what she thinks is best for the country, and is not Denth's employer.

I keep worrying that Susebron's priests can overhear Vivenna and know what she's teaching Susebron even though she whispers but are pretending they don't.  Am I being paranoid?

Wouldn't Bluefingers owe Vivenna a favor for getting his countrywomen promoted?  He seems very intent on getting them good positions, and would likely be more willing to help Vivenna after she ordered her servants switched.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 07, 2007, 07:52:06 AM
I think that Bluefingers will be owing Siri for her getting his country women in place, but I also think that was the point behind that move.

I think the reason that Denth was using Vivenna was exactly the reason we see... she was great way to get a war started.  The most they ever used her for was showing off the royal locks, and promote the fighting in the city.

The thing I want to see more about (and almost seems to have been dropped, which seems slightly ooc for Lightsong) is the past that his priest knows... I mean, after being so obsessed about it, you think he'd be bugging him more to get information, and using his obvious cunning to get him to have something slip.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 07, 2007, 03:28:29 PM
As for Peprin as lifeless... he was a good tracker/hunter which eludes to the fact that he could be stealthy when he needed to be.  Those skills could be used or exploited if need be. Or he could even be used as a diversion.  Socially, he was a misfit but he could still serve a purpose, lifeless aren't exactly social so this does not matter.  You don't have to be a hulk like Clod to be useful. Colors, they could even sell him into the lifeless armies.   Not that I find it necessary to do any of this but it does present other options which is all I was really suggesting.  But seeing it seems to be an expensive possibility it makes it all that much more unlikely.  Though the cost of  war can be costly it doesn't rule this out completely as a possibility.  But with only approximately 10 more chapters til the end well time is not going to probably allow for such. 

Denth may not want to possess the breaths but that does not mean he does not want to exploit the opportunity to get her to use them to his advantage.  He has been trying to get her to use the abilities of an awakener throughout the book saying that it would be good for their group to have a strong awakener.  He has been manipulating her all the while.  The attack in the slums was too well orchestrated for them to not have had insider information.  Again it eludes to Denth or someone of the Mercs reporting to the guard or even possibly Blushweaver, so that Vivenna would be scared witless and be forced to try and use what she has.  She fails and is now slowly accepting the fact that she will have to just to survive. 

I am not positive of Blushweaver's part with being Denth's employer but it does make alot of other things make sense when we mover her into that position.  Granted with that being said I am probably completely wrong and Brandon will smack us with one of his plot twists that we could not possibly have seen coming.

I like the fact that everything is not perfect in her escape.  We have already discussed that something needs to happen with her hearing the codes a few pages back.

I wouldn't doubt that the person sent to follow Vasher could have been without breath by choice or not but I have a sneaking suspicion that we will find Blushweaver at the heart of this as well.  It was the perfect way to insure Mercystar's cooperation in giving her the lifeless codes especailly after Light song gets involved.  And is probably why she is so exaperated with Lightsong's continued obsession with the tunnels and the problem.   He might find her out.

As for Lightsong's wanting to know who he was I think he is acting on it, instead of thinking about it, so much.  He is using his instincts to try and solve the puzzle he has discovered and his dreams are becoming more vivid and telling, perhaps because of it?

Bluefinger's could not help but be indebted to Siri through her ploy, and it will also give her a more loyalty from him and the women.  She would have help to get Susebron out of the palace. 

Make me wonder of there are tunnels leading to the GodKing's palace.  Seems completely likely.  And makes me ask: Where is Vasher now?

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 07, 2007, 04:07:19 PM
To speculate on the identity of the person who followed Vasher: my first guess would be Llarimar, because he seemed unusually nervous during Lightsong's investigations, trying to push Lightsong back into his usual frivolous Godly activities.  It's not much, but it's the only hint I've noticed so far.

This doesn't mean BTW that I think Llarimar was betraying Lightsong -- Llarimar could have been acting in what he perceived as Lightsong's best interests.  It's also occured to me that the man-who-Lightsong-was and Llarimar could have made some plan before Lightsong's death, one of those "you had to not know who you were"-type plans.  We shall see...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 07, 2007, 08:16:10 PM
I don't think it's OOC for Lightsong to stop pestering Llahrimar about his past.  He's distracted by his investigation of the murder and realizes that pestering Llahrimar will not help uncover his past; the main reason he asked about his past before was because he wanted to complain about not knowing.  Now he is discovering some things on his own and is excited about his investigation.

As for Blushweaver...SOMETHING has to be going on with her, otherwise Brandon has wasted a lot of pages.  I'm fairly sure she was lying when she claimed that she refused the tunnel connection to her palace because she didn't want noise; she may have had the connection built, but I think it's more likely she refused out of paranoia.  She also may have had something to do with following Vasher, but I doubt she did it herself, because it just doesn't seem in character for her to do it herself, not to mention how conspicuous her aura would be.  She'd kill herself if she tried to hide it in something.

Now, here's another possibility: what if the person who killed the servant was a priest who left the tunnel after Vasher entered, and killed the servant because he was seen.  I know it's a little far-fetched, but...I don't like priests much.  How loyal are they to their gods, anyway?  It seems they are religiously devoted, even if they are plotting against their own gods.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on January 09, 2007, 09:39:17 PM
I wish I didn’t have to read 21 pages of a thread to finally be able to post my thoughts and comments.  I just didn’t want anyone saying, “Yeah, we covered that on page 10.”  (LOL, I saw that a few pages back.)  Anyway, I hope to make more constructive comments about upcoming chapters, rather than this insubstantial review-like post.

Scoot & Lightsong
     Tremendously awesome characters, Scoots byplay with Lightsong makes the god’s actions, emotions and questioning seem real.  And that holds up the character in later chapters, making his actions seem normal.  (Which Lightsong would hate!)  But I really laughed out loud with the idea of a God picking on his High Priest.  I think a lot of people can understand that “stuffiness” of clergy, and enjoy seeing people’s noses get tweaked.
     I think Lightsong should keep the war painting he liked so much.  If he were caught staring at it by his priests, or if he forced himself to ponder it more later, then his interest in his past life would be more real.  Also, it’s just another time to allow Scoot to worry – maybe cluing the reader in on his and Lightsong’s pre-Returned relationship (this mystery is probably killing me the most).  I do not think Scoot (I'm sticking with that name, 'cause, hey, a God named him) is betraying Lightsong.  Rather, he is looking out for him, so he doesn't endager himself in discovering what he is not supposed to.

Susebron
     If he cannot speak, how does he say the incantation to give up his breath?  Is he the 1st God King to have his tongue cut out?  It would seem that men of Tridees’ nature would have controlled every God-King since Peacegiver. 

Breaths.
     I absolutely detest the term “BioChroma.”  The double capitalization makes it seem like some company from the Shadowrun novels (near future sci-fi/fantasy).  That just links it too strongly to a science, rather than a magic system.  Animating the dead using “souls” screams some kind of Divine Magic.  If you wanted to temper this with the “ichor-alcohol” (I love the alchemy references) and perfect-pitch/hue ideas, I don’t think it works.
   The beautiful colors, and the mysticism attached to it is lost every time that phrase is mentioned.  Why would they use Greek words to say "Life Colors"?  "Breath" is far more simple, elegant, and magical.  However, I'm not saying it should be called, Breath - just that almost anything is better than BC.

Siri.
     She is instantly a likeable character.  Real and down to earth – identifiable.  However, she never reacts to the term, “Vessel.”  I think she would constantly try to rebuff the term – even after being intimidated by the Court, Tridees, and the 1st few nights with the God King.  I think Siri is smart enough to understand that she is separate from the Court. 
     She has defiance in her, but she loses a lot those 1st weeks in the Court.  When she suddenly gets it back, she still lets people call her, “Vessel” – even Bluefingers!  If the term is a religious reference (obviously because she is important for only one thing), then why is a Pahn-Kal using it?  Even when they are co-conspirators? 
     Agreeing with Dreamking47 – how come Siri never wonder’s about Susebron’s mother?

Vivena.
   Although I love her, and her parts, were these all ideas from Mistborn that you didn’t get around too?  I can get behind her idea to rescue her sister – but then it all stops.  So there is a war coming? All of a sudden, its time to topple another city-empire.  Vivena has all but said they she has given up on Siri.  No effort has been made by her to contact her sister.  Granted, the mercs may have done something to interfere (while seemingly helping), but Vivena could have at least tried something.
   Why is she so concerned with disrupting a “war-effort”?  An army of zombies!  They have to fight an army of zombies!  She should be focused on disabling, stealing, or something towards that end.  If a god just told his 10,000 zombies to go and destroy Idris, they might not succeed, but they would cause SERIOUS damage.  Enough so that the next 10,000 zombies, or even real troops, could just walk in.  Unless, of course, the reader is supposed to believe that the Idrian army is pathetically weak.
     I agree with Dreamking47 about Vivena’s constant piousness.  She keeps putting herself in places where she questions her ability to judge people, and place herself above them.  While these are admirable qualities, they should not be in a princess.  Vivena is constantly being shown as more naïve than Siri – which bothers me on a few occasions.  I hope that when the Idrian finally stole her clothes, maybe she would learn some sense.


The Mercs.
     These guys are great.  And even I didn’t see it coming, I was in Vivena’s seat the whole time.  I felt her shock and confusion – well done!  I hope they stick around, only to cause more problems.  If Vashar kills them too easy, I will be disappointed.

Pacing
   I kind of like the random quality of the viewpoints.  Cliffhangers abound all over, and leaving one chapter not knowing if the story finishes in the next is a great way to keep us hooked.  However, MORE VASHAR!  And his sword is probably my favorite character so far.  'I'm better than a shirt' - that brought tears to my eyes!
     As always, the Sanderson slide starts a little slow with a nice grab, but builds exponential momentum towards the end.  Once you pass the ½ way point in one of his book, you have to stay up all night to finish it!


Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 09, 2007, 11:08:17 PM
I never really noticed the term "BioChroma" one way or the other although it's a good point, as an item of language it does stand out a bit.  It has sometimes felt like the magic system is really two or three ideas for magic systems crammed together -- particularly with the person/object distinction EUOL mentioned in his last post.  I agree, we know enough about the system that it does start to feel like a science rather than magic, yet not so much that we can really understand it.  (Not that this is any different from the real world!)  But we're not at the end of the book yet, either.

Honestly, I'm not a magic system person -- I prefer my magic to be rare, dramatic and personal (I like the ability of the Returned Gods to grant a single miracle) -- so as long as I don't notice any glaring inconsistencies I tend to just nod my head and keep reading during the bits that focus on the system.  I'm in it more for the story and the characters.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on January 10, 2007, 04:20:48 AM
In response to Tjaeden...

I really don't like the term Biochroma either. This may be because the first time I read it I thought it said Biochemistry or something like that, which is my major and that made me think of school and then homework that I was avoiding by reading the first 30 chapters or so at once and I didn't like that. It did sound too technical to me for a fantasy/non-future type of book...

We've discussed the tongue problem a bit. I think clerifications will be made later about how he will transfer the breath since I believe Siri has also wondered this... I'm just waiting to see.

I want more Vasher as well!! I'm not sure why I like him and his sword...

I had assumed the name Vessel was a normal term for someone who is needed to have a baby... I didn't like the term but figured she would have been expected to be called that for some reason...

I agree with scoot not betraying lightsong... I think he would be nicer if he wanted to betray lightsong.

...just some thoughts on your thoughts...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 10, 2007, 04:33:39 AM
I have also wondered about how Susebron is supposed to pass on his Breath.  Since i don't think his priests are stupid enough to make that bad of a mistake, they must know something about BioCroma we don't that allows him to use it without his voice, or maybe they plan on persuading a Returned to sacrifice themselves to heal him.

Speaking of BioCroma, I think it's supposed to sound like a science.  That's the impression I have had since the first chapter, when Vasher was thinking of Hallandren as 'the center of BioCromatic research.'  Brandon's magical systems usually are rather scientific, which is something I personally like.  There are not enough well-designed scientific magical systems in fantasy, and too much hand-waving and weird words with no further explanation than 'they're magic.'

As for Vivenna, I think Brandon's planned storyline requires Vivenna to be in T'Telir and making trouble for reasons not revealed until later.  She is also supposed to be moralistic and somewhat naive: half of what's been written about her so far has been about how religious and sheltered she has been.  Siri was right when she decided that Vivenna would not have been able to deal with the shock of marrying Susebron.

I love the mercs to.  Every book needs at least one disaster like that.  And I wouldn't worry about Vasher having an easy time beating Denth...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on January 10, 2007, 08:35:36 AM
Hum...  You make good points (all of you.)

I've been tempted to pull back a little bit on the BioChroma part of the terminology.  I like it a lot, but only when used in the proper place.  I think it might be too techinical for the average person to use.  There are places it belongs.  We shall see what you think after future chapters.

Vessel needs to be dealt with.  In my mind of minds, it was the term the priests of the God King used for the person who would bear their next ruler.  Never explained, though.  And Siri WOULD probably think it odd.

New chapter is here:  Chapter Forty One (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-041-1.0.doc)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 10, 2007, 03:16:42 PM
Just read Chpt 41...

Kidnapped 3 times or is that 4?!   That is about as broken as it gets and I thought she'd hit rock bottom before.  Good grief, the poor woman!  One has to ask was Vasher her savior or a captor again?  I cannot decide.  I want him to be a force of good for some reason.

K
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on January 10, 2007, 06:52:05 PM
Wow. Ummm, let me see, where to start....

First, I love that we still don't know if Vasher is a good guy or a bad guy, that the lines with him are so blurred as to not even be there. He has taken Vivenna away from Denth twice, and we know that he is not what he appeared, so I am leaning towards good guy with a bad way of going about things, or maybe just a jaded way, but it is still so up in the air. I am glad that he is back though, it seems as if it has been a while since we have seen him.

As for Vivenna, she is starting to think like a human being and I like that. She isn't Miss High and Mighty anymore, she is starting to think about the dilemmas that plague people everyday, on a more extreme scale in her case. Instead of thinking in black and white, she is now thinking in shades of gray, I guess is the point I am trying to make.

I think that I would love this book even if the plot with the God King and the war were gone, because of the sheer force of humanity, and scope of it as well, that you are showing with this. The characters are such a huge part, and you can't just KNOW for sure whether one person is "good" or "bad" from the beginning, as I am sure we have all read with other authors in our lives. The character development is top notch in my opinion and is probably one of the things that I like best about your writing. Well, that and the fact that you manage to still come up with new "magic" systems in a field that has seen many repetitions.

Before anyone jumps on me that wasn't a slam to this field, or to any particular author, just a statement of fact. Brandon, as far as I have seen, is a person that has more imagination than any ten people I know put together and that is what this field has needed for a long time. It is hard to be original when there are only so many things you can do with magic systems, and it just took a bit for  a pioneer to come out of the woodwork, so to speak. That does NOT mean that I would quit reading fantasy, ever, or that I think that it is a badly written field of work.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on January 10, 2007, 07:52:47 PM
Some ideas that have been mulling around in my head--I tend to be way off base with this type of thing, but here they are.

Is Vasher in Hallendren as an agent of Panh Kahl trying to overthrow the government? If you remember, the prisoner he took the breaths from, and then killed in the beginning was named Pahn. Their conversation together showed that they had worked together in the past.
If that is the case, his interaction with Vivenna makes a little more sense--she was probably messing up his plans with her actions, so he needed her out of the way while he tried to figure out what her motivations where. That's why he was surprised by her reaction to his sword.

Quote
(From Tjaden, posted yesterday:)  She (Vivenna) keeps putting herself in places where she questions her ability to judge people, and place herself above them.  While these are admirable qualities, they should not be in a princess.  Vivena is constantly being shown as more naïve than Siri – which bothers me on a few occasions.

I don't know if naive is the right word for Vivenna. She was the "perfect child" growing up. She seems to never have allowed herself to question much of anything--her religion, her destiny, her upbringing. She only had been taught one worldview and didn't realize that other peoples' views might be just as valid and reasoned. The places she is put in are all forcing her to expand her horizons. Siri on the other hand, grew up questioning everything and thus was able to adapt to her new circumstances much more readily.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on January 10, 2007, 08:09:49 PM
I'm happy to see more effects of the sword.  We keep getting teased by what it can do, and only a few hints have really given us solid info.  If this is a stand alone (better not be!), then maybe there could have been some legends about it - maybe Lightsong could have asked Dusk if there were any stories about a black-hilted blade used in the Manywar.  Or Vivena, with all of her tutoring, would know something about enchanted blades - Nightblood does seem to be the only "magical" thing around, besides the zombies.

Vashar rocks.  We love to see good guys with bad guy qualites/methods/or other quirks, I think.  It's almost cliche now to have such a flawed character be a hero - we are always reminded that no one is perfect.  With that said - I think Brandon has not done that with Vashar quite yet.  There is still too much we don't know about him.  He could have the mindset of Denth, separating his beliefs from his actions with ease.  I, for one, am hoping for something more brooding - maybe he is a man that Vivena could fall for, but Vashar would(could?) never love a woman.  Kind of the last stop on Brandon's spectrum of heroes - Raoden --- Kelsier --- Vashar.  That would be satisfying, I think.

As far as Vivena...  I think I am biased, in believing that her education should have prepared her better. (I am a high school English teacher, so, it makes sense in my world).
1. She was trained to be the wife of the God-King (all duties included).
2. She is learned about BioChroma - even if she didn't pay too much attention.
3. She knows what it means to be a princess, and, by default, know a measure of government.
3a. If that is true, then economics MUST have factored in there - and Fantasy-Capitalism means there are peasants and poor people.
4. She was trained in what to do during a kidnapping.  This one bothers me the most.  Does she know how to ride a horse?  I think that combat training (even a little) is not called for here, but the *knowledge* of who would kidnap her, how she might be kidnapped, and that she knows she will be left for dead, is important.

All those points -- to me -- show a woman who is less naive than Vivena.  All the things she hints at from her tutors just keeps reinforcing what Vivena was *not*.  Are we supposed to think she ditched her classes as much as Siri?  The impression I get was that Vivena was the perfect daughter (maybe sheltered, yes, but not naive) - as evident that the King "picked" her most, and then decided that she was not worth sacrificing.  

I don't know - it just seems a little confusing of a character transformation.  It's like Vivena is set up, then "forgets" all she knows when she gets to Halledren, then "relearns" it all.  If that is supposed to be how it works, then the reliance on what her tutors taught her (I actually love how she remembers things during stress, quoting her tutors, and even Denth) needs to be lessoned.

Maybe instead of tutors - monks?  Focusing more on the religious aspect of marrying a God-King?  (I know that was mentioned once).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on January 10, 2007, 08:13:55 PM
I don't know if naive is the right word for Vivenna. She was the "perfect child" growing up. She seems to never have allowed herself to question much of anything--her religion, her destiny, her upbringing. She only had been taught one worldview and didn't realize that other peoples' views might be just as valid and reasoned.

That's a really good point.  But, by the way Brandon wrote and referes to her "tutors," I would think she would be more knowledgable.  I know knowledge about something  does not equal first hand experience.  But, even in Siri's chapters, the reader is given information about what kinds of things the tutors taught.

As I mentioned above - that strict world view teaching doesn' make sense if tutors are preparing a Princess to marry a God-King of an extremely wealthy, powerful, port-city.  If, however, they were monks constantly reinforcing Austre - then I would buy it. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 10, 2007, 08:35:16 PM
Thoughts...

Chapter 41

You asked after the last Vivenna chapter whether we thought her path was too clichéd.  I said no then, but this chapter did feel a little clichéd to me, melodramatic in a way very reminiscent of Les Miserables: she's on the streets, begging, she sells her hair, considers prostitution, etc.  Partly I think it's a matter of show vs. tell -- you tell us that she sold her hair, that she was beaten, but all we see is her begging and then taking that single dramatic step towards the whores -- it ends up feeling overly dramatic because we didn't experience any of the drama that led up to it.  Probably I'm just not sympathetic enough, but because we haven't walked those miles with her, I end up feeling more that she's a wuss rather than empathy for her despair.  Granted it's always easier to say these things when you're sitting comfortably indoors and well-fed, but it seems to me that Vivenna has enough Breaths that she could use them to make money legitimately or illegitimately, steal things, break into places, defend herself, etc.  Plus if fed, she could sell her hair once or twice a day.  Or at least try to get a message to someone (you'd think a civilization with the ability to Awaken/Command would have a good postal system).  Instead, she just slinks off and waits to be a victim.

I think the bottom line is that I just don't care for her as a character, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.  She's always been too passive for me to feel much for her.  Maybe, hopefully, that's a desired reaction to her.  (And I did think that maybe she's acting this way because she isn't carrying any Breath now, that this is what being a Drab is like, but she always had this passive element to her character, so it's not noticeably different.)

I did like that we got to see Nightblood "in action" in this chapter, you've been building up to that and it felt like a good time to remove that veil.

Magic Etc.

One thing that's been a little vague are the overall levels of "technology," societal organization and intellectual sophistication of this world, of Hallendren in particular.  That's partly why "BioChroma" does feel a little out of place: it sounds alien to and more sophisticated than the surrounding words.  There may be explanations for this that would be interesting to read about: maybe the society is actually in decline since the Manywar and the word is a remnant of that past age of scholarship?  Have they really advanced at all since the Manywar?  I sometimes picture Hallendren as an over-ripe fruit, past its prime: big, bright and colorful on the outside but gone squishy and bad on the inside.  Or yeah, maybe it's just a word that select people use.  That might be something interesting to explore with the priests vs. the mercenaries, since at least in our Middle Ages, it was the priests who were the at center of most scholarship (indeed, the maintainers of Greek learning) yet here it's been the mercenary chapters that have provided much of the exposition on BioChromatic metaphysics.

Doesn't Siri comment on the "Vessel" title earlier in the book, in an early conversation with Bluefingers or Tridees?  I thought she did, but it may just be my imagination filling in the blanks.  (Edit: I did a quick search and I was wrong, it never is explicitly stated what the term means, although I always understood it because Bluefingers does comment very early on that Siri's sole duty is to provide an heir.)

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on January 10, 2007, 10:05:58 PM
I like the idea of monks as Vivenna's tutors. That would explain why she really had no idea how Hallendren society works and why she is so convinced that everything to do with BioChroma is evil and oppressive.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 11, 2007, 06:06:36 AM
I have to agree with dreamking47 about how the chapter felt a bit too cliche.  I was actually considering posting something myself along the same lines of what was said.

I actually am rather glad that Vashar was the one to pick up Vivenna rather than Denth, because I feel he's a little bit safer.  He's got something in mind, works for himself, and... just feels... safer.  At this point Denth is kind of a wild-card that we can't be sure if he'd kill Vivenna or keep her alive, or what would happen.  However, I am slightly worried about something that was commented.  I think he could be good for Vivenna if she were to fall for him, however at this point if something were to happen, it would be way rushed, and I while I do believe that you can fall in love quickly, something like that type of love would need to be well explained.  Why would she actually allow herself to be with someone who she's just seen kill?  Wouldn't she hate the fact that she was in love with him?  Why is it that she does have feeling for him, and yet she's never displayed intrests before?  (My thought for that one is she's never let her self dream since she knew she would be married to the God-King, but now she knows she won't be with him, so thus she's free and yet she still hasn't considered dating other people...)  I think more that I would like to see them by the end of the book have a tenitive friendship, or if she does get feelings for him, have them be a graditude to the person who saves her which she's confusing for love.

As to the learning, I agree with everyone that monks would make more sense for teach.  It would also slightly explain why Siri payed so little attention, since she doesn't seem to care that much for religion.  Also, to me Siri seems more like the type of person where if she wanted to learn about something, she'd study it as much as she could and become best friends with that tutors, and just ignore the other ones (case and point: getting the history.  She decided she wanted to know about it so she did everything in her power.)  And since she seems to have enjoyed the "extravagent" things (her love for flowers at the beginning), she would be intrested in BioChroma, and most likely talk to people visiting from Halledren since they would be intresting to her.  Yet I feel like she only went to classes when she absolutly had to.  Maybe that's just me...

I kind of agree with the comments about BioChroma, mostly because it doesn't fit the magic system.  Usually when you're naming something, you either give it a name that explains what it does or how to use it (breaths make sense here) or else after the person who discovered it.  Maybe Color-Soul or Bright-breaths, or something may make more sense (and actually the comment about soul would make sense as to why the drian seem to think that using breaths or losing all of your breaths is like losing part of your soul, which also hasn't made full sense as to why they would think that.)

In regards to the way that Subron is going to lose his breaths, I think that by this point Siri would have started to do research into that herself.  See if any of the Iredecent Tones died shortly before the god-king, or even try to find out more about breaths (maybe using wanting to understand her own, or something as an excuse) so that she could try to put a set of actions ready to prevent that, so she could use her excaping the city as a backup plan.  Right now she seems way too focused on that, and less on preventing the need to do so, yet she's always hoping she doesn't have to.

Anywho, that's my thoughts...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 11, 2007, 06:43:39 AM
In regards to the many complaints about the term 'BioCroma':

I think it is supposed to sound more advanced.  I get the idea that in Hallandren society, there is a lot of research into BioCroma (comments about 'modern commands' and Hallandren being 'the center of BioCromatic research' come to mind) but otherwise they haven't really advanced beyond the middle ages;  it would make sense because those with the leisure and wealth to conduct research would also have Breaths, and be able to extend their powers by researching that field.  BioCroma looks anachronistic because it is so far ahead of everything else.

About Vivenna's education:

Many seem to be surprised that the perfect little child who grew up in a near theocracy (religion controls seemingly every action in Idris, from how you dress to when you're allowed to have emotions) would have difficulty adjusting to a 'heretical' society.  Her tutors very likely were monks, as (at least in our middle ages) monks were responsible for much of the teaching and learning.

She would have been prepared to marry Susebron and deal with political maneuvering, but that does not quite cover organizing terrorist attacks (and these WERE terrorist; Denth organized them to spread fear and incite a war), surviving on the streets (why would the future queen of Hallandren ever need to know what to do when she had nothing?).  Denth and Tonk Fah are both extremely skilled and experienced professionals, and should easily be able to manipulate a complete stranger to T'Telir.

Though I will say that the thing with the prostitutes was laying it on a bit thick...

Regarding Vasher:

Of course we all want him to be a good guy!  People are naturally inclined to hope for the best in others, even if they don't expect it.  That is a lot of how Denth and Tonk Fah were able to take in Vivenna (as well as all us readers, I might add).  Still, we can say that Vasher is no friend of Denth, or of scheming priests; that definitely speaks for him not being a completely rotten apple.  Good thing is, we're sure to be seeing more of him now.

Official predictions of Master Bombadil (for what they're worth):

Vasher teaches Vivenna to use her Breaths.

At least one of Siri's political maneuverings will blow up in her face.

Lightsong, Blushweaver and Llahrimar enter the tunnels together, when they finally do.

Lightsong dies.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 11, 2007, 08:29:24 PM
I agree with Matt (DreamKing) about the Show versus Tell issue with Vivenna and perhaps that is why I was left wanting a bit with chpt 41.   Even if we are told part of it her reason to go into that alley and for it to be abandoned so appropriately... well it's too convenient. It is one she haunts and Vasher has figured it out and it is obvious that Denth knows and is smart enough to have hired muscle to get her captured seeing we are not seeing Tonk Fah or Denth there to be potentially killed.  Too many people are onto her and Vivenna unwitting yet again. (She is beginning to annoy m at this point.) She is smarter than that and there are only so many times you can be played a fool before becoming wary of traps such as this.

A glance down the empty alley should have tipped her off no matter how tired and hungry she was not  to mention despite small things like comfort that she is seeking a distraction of some sort would be welcome.  To keep her from noticing, a smell of something enticing or not.

I don't know... perhaps a different POV would be more interesting for the chapter.  Vasher's would be my choice.  I'd love to get into his head and get a peak of WHY he is doing this, because he is still such an enigma and I tire of Vivenna.  Then follow it up with Vivenna reacting to what has happened and she and Vasher hashing things out from her POV.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 12, 2007, 08:08:47 PM
[Vivenna] is smarter than that

Is she?  When has she shown it?  When she escapes from Denth maybe, although I'd say that was prompted by Clod and/or animal cunning.  I don't think she's ever demonstrated any inclination at all to think about anything, or skill at doing so.  She seems to me like someone who's fate was decided at an early age, and as a result she never really grew inside -- why bother, she was doomed and I'm sure everyone quietly treated her that way.  She learned her lessons, but by rote, not with any thoughtful understanding or ability to apply the principles of what she learned.  Most of the time she's very passive, childishly obedient, content to let others make decisions without thinking about the ramifications of what they're doing.  The few times she does make decisions tend to be childish outbursts due to losing her fate as sacrifice for her people, which however horrible was all she had, all she was (is?).

Reading people's comments on the characters is interesting...it's almost like a Rorschach pattern, how we've read the characters and what we want for them says as much about us as it does about the actual words EUOL has written.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on January 12, 2007, 09:47:35 PM
I see the point that Vivenna hasn't shown too much extreme intellegence... I would have to say that she must be fairly smart considering her father wants her to rule Idris. I think that in itself would be saying something in itself. Plus they trained her on court politics and goverment in as a child. All of the things she learned all her life were for being a princess then a queen. She was never taught to be in the normal middle or lower class. She obviosly has some common sense. Enough to get away twice.

On the prostitution thing... I think it would be better if she didn't actually consider becomming one but she maybe thought that she now sees how one could resort to that.

About selling her hair, she would have to be able to find someone who would trust her to pay her in advance at least for the first time since she doesn't have the energy to grow her hair out again. She would also have to trust them with the secret that she can grow out her hair like that. It's not such a bad idea except for the fact that she's completely alone and trying to stay hidden. And now... she's kind of kidnapped again...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 12, 2007, 11:29:28 PM
I agree with Dreamking about Vivenna's intelligence.  I think the reason readers think of her as 'smart' is partly her attitude (she definitely thinks she's smart, or used to anyway) and party that she was 'trained,' though I don't think Idris can provide a good political education.  It's a bit...I dunno...rustic?

As for her father wanting her to rule Idris, I think that is because her viewed her as perfect, not smart.  It's made very clear in the early chapters that she (Vivenna) goes along with anything she is told by the proper authorities, and is though of very highly for it.  I don't think many people in that culture question much of anything (Siri did, and she was plainly in the minority), so someone who questions practically nothing is viewed as 'better'.

I do like amyface's point about the prostitutes...it would not seem quite as overdone and would also show her learning to understand those around her better, which I think is a major theme with her.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 13, 2007, 01:11:10 AM
I see the point that Vivenna hasn't shown too much extreme intellegence... I would have to say that she must be fairly smart considering her father wants her to rule Idris. I think that in itself would be saying something in itself.

But is he that smart?  All we know about him is that he gained the throne at a young age after his father was assassinated, immediately made the treaty with Hallendren to send them his eldest daughter when she turned 22 out of fear, couldn't bear to do so when the time came, and then hasn't been heard from these many months since.  I don't know if we've heard the last from him -- I rather doubt it, considering that his love for Vivenna was what started all this -- but he has not struck me as a overly wise or strong person from the bits we've seen.

Anyway, obviously I bring my own prejudices and perspectives to it, but I'm just trying to figure out what is really there in the text -- what the characters have shown us about themselves.  Sure, both Siri and their father say that Vivenna is "perfect," but what does that mean from each of their perspectives?

Quote
On the prostitution thing... I think it would be better if she didn't actually consider becomming one but she maybe thought that she now sees how one could resort to that.

Yes, that's a good idea.  It just seemed to me that she hadn't "earned" the level of despair she was showing...I think either she needs to visibly suffer a little more (not too much!) or the despair should be reined in a bit.  It depends somewhat on what her fate is to be in the story.

Quote
About selling her hair, she would have to be able to find someone who would trust her to pay her in advance at least for the first time since she doesn't have the energy to grow her hair out again. She would also have to trust them with the secret that she can grow out her hair like that. It's not such a bad idea except for the fact that she's completely alone and trying to stay hidden. And now... she's kind of kidnapped again...

Yes...although Vasher at least seems to be the not-enemy (I can't say friend) of an enemy of Hallendren.

With the hair, she wouldn't need to sell it to the same person each time.  Granted, just because I sitting here comfortably at my computer can think of it doesn't mean that she would while starving on the streets trying to stay hidden, as I said; it's just that she wasn't even trying to think of anything, and I wanted to give some examples of things that someone who was "smart" might at least consider.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 13, 2007, 02:00:22 AM
My comment about Vivenna being 'smarter than that' was more that there could be so much more potential there.  (I tried to be facetious - evidentally it did not come off in print as I had heard it in my head.) Vivenna has had things continually happening to her it is about time she stopped being the unwitting victim lest she be crushed/killed by her circumstances.  I'm a bit tired of hearing about her woe-begotten, ill-fated situation and it's time stood up and did something about it.  She should learn something from all that has happened and continues to do so but she just lets Vasher apparently kidnap her again!  She just feels like dead weight.  Too much introspection and overly despairing (I agree) and too little doing.  She chose her circumstances when she was robbed she just seems pathetic.

I don't mean to be vicious but she is on my nerves and I don't feel I care about her as I do Siri, Susebron, Lightsong even Vasher.

Vivenna was the good little girl that did as she was told, fitting into the vision that her father wanted and how Siri the extra unnecessary child would see her.  It gave Siri freedom and  I doubt her father thought of the outcome of commiting his eldest daughter to such a fate, he was seeking the security of his kingdom.  22 years later and growing attached wasn't something he was thinking about at the time.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 13, 2007, 05:46:38 AM
I don't think Vivenna has been that pathetic for most of the book, only the last bit.  She was trying quite hard to hamper Hallandren's armies (even if she was being manipulated by Denth) and was plainly not 'just accepting everything'.  It is only the last bit where she was brought low, I think because she was supposed to learn that not everything was perfectly black and white.  Brandon merely got rather over-zealous with that bit.

I also don't think she is supposed to be a likable character; she is shown as being rather prissy and self-righteous, then learns that she was wrong.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 13, 2007, 01:49:59 PM
I didn't mean for the whole of the book I was just meaning more recently, towards the end of part 3 and now 4.   But she has seen so many things that have already showed her things are not B&W.  I have been able to connect with almost all of Brandon's characters I am just really struggling with Vivenna.  I felt I understood her up until this last bit, perhaps Brandon will enlighten me in the next few chapters and everything will fall into place and I won't end up being so annoyed with her.

Siri is not going to recognize her sister when she sees her again and I don't mean her physical state.  But to me it's not all about being likable it is about caring about the character.  I mean hate is fine way to fell about a character like Dilaf in Elantris or wanting to hate Susebron for what he stood for and and ending up really liking him for who he is.  But I care one way or another for them; conversely, currently I am feeling very little for Vivenna.  It feels like she has given up when she let's herself be carried off by Vasher.  I mean she knows he wants her breaths which she is currently 'hiding', but to not fight it in some way, even weakly-- show something other than conceeding to defeat.

Perhaps, half of my frustration lies in having to wait to find out what happens next.....

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 14, 2007, 04:12:56 PM
Pterath, my apologies for misunderstanding your post.  There were actually a couple of people who had posted similar thoughts (to what I thought you meant about Vivenna's smarts and maturity) and your post happened to be the most recent and have a good line to quote from to segui into my post.

I don't expect to like all the characters in any given book -- the fact that I don't think I like Vivenna isn't meant as a criticism of this book.  I didn't particularly like Hrathen in Elantris, certainly not at the start of the book, but he was interesting.  I agree, though: Vivenna feels rather undefined to me, there's not enough there to be interesting.  Notice how we're all constructing our own (often very different) backstories for her?

Master Bombadil, I would suggest that Vivenna's first pathetic act was coming to Hallendren in the first place -- she as much as admits she didn't really do it to save Siri, but rather almost out of inertia, it had been what she had planned for her whole life and she didn't really know what to do with herself without that future.  The big question with her, to me, is will she figure out how to live by the end of the story, or is she doomed to be the sacrifice she's always planned to be?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 14, 2007, 07:07:29 PM
I don't think at this point Siri would let her take over and become the wife of the god king.  She's already acknowledged that she couldn't stand the colors and everything.  That and the fact that Siri has fallen for him, so I don't think she'll be very happy with someone else having her man...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 14, 2007, 07:16:00 PM
I think Dreamking has a point about Vivenna's first pathetic act being going to Hallandren, though I wonder if her whole life hasn't been a bit pathetic.  I think maybe she is disliked because she is a boring person with a boring life (at least until she got kidnapped a few times; then she is the stuck-up know-it-all who is being taught a lesson).  It makes me wonder if Brandon has based her on someone he knows in real life, though it's hard to say since I don't think he knows my sisters :-)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 14, 2007, 11:24:17 PM
All is good no offense taken.  I just wanted to make myself clear.

But Vivenna lacks tough I dare say she is consistent.  I am hoping Brandon will enlighten us in the coming chapters and take and give more purpose to this character and it will all come together and make sense.  I mean he has taken a good chunk of the book thus far and dedicated many many pages to her. So there is hope that once his plans for her take shape that they give her more purpose than we can see here.  Vasher as well he has been mentioned much more than we have actually seen him in action.  Though most of those chapters have impact.

The thing is with roughly 10+ chapters give or take can all of the loose threads be taken care of without seeming too contrived. 

I understand teaching Vivenna the hard way (probably the only way she'd learn and not just be repulsed by T'Telir/Hallendren society)  but it's time she stood up and did something about it instead of being swept along with it.  She sorta started doing that with escaping Vasher, then Denth and then the robbery but she doesn't feel committed to it wallowing the pathetic existence that she chose.

*Sitting here waiting on the next chapter as patiently as possible.*

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 15, 2007, 02:14:25 AM
I don't see what you mean by Vivenna lacking purpose; it is basically all there has been to her the entire book.  First she is being prepared to become the God King's wife, then she is going to attempt to cripple Hallandren, but she does not have much personality.  I liked the scenes where she was escaping Vasher and Denth quite a bit, and it seems to me that her character is good for action but not for personality, if you know what I mean.

She has been spending her entire time in T'Telir 'standing up and doing something about it.'  Again, 'do' seems to be the only thing she does since leaving Idris, more machinery than actual personality.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on January 15, 2007, 08:11:02 AM
What I am still concerned with is - why hasn't Vivena even *asked* about a way to contact Siri?

I don't know...  I'm feeling that Vivena's character has always been 'telling' the reader what was going on in the city.  The mercs pretty much took care of most of the action, and the one time we get to see some fun (the break in during the day at the records house) it's brief and Vivena 'thinks' about the events, rather than have the reader experience them.

She has had a few shining moments - but too few to be effective.  If Siri is our political/emotional plot line, and Lightsong is the religious plot line, then Vivena has to have the action plots to break up all the theistic talk and political intrigue.  I think that is what most of us are trying to express.  Each of the main characters have a role in the world to show/tell the reader, and only Vivena is failing.

How does that sound?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 15, 2007, 08:53:37 AM
I think the action plot line is mostly Vasher, but there will be more action with Lightsong soon.  I can't really tell WHAT Vivenna's plot line is supposed to be; it's almost as though she exists to become more open-minded and Hallandren.  That is the most important thing that she has done so far.

Also, the mercs have a definite action role, but Brandon can't write from their perspective he'll spoil the mystery.  It seems as if Vivenna is there to tie up loose ends: show the mercs, what is happening in T'Telir, random other bits of information relevant to the plot (such as Vasher's and Denth's rivalry) and learn to be open-minded (a moral lesson Brandon seems quite intent on including).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miriel on January 15, 2007, 06:53:32 PM
Perhaps I'm the only one, but Vivenna has always been my favorite character.  I never thought she was stuck-up.  She is, after all, a very devout woman trying to learn how to live in a world that rejects her religion.  The fact that she doesn't give up that religion all together but slowly learns which truths are actually important to her and which ones she's willing to sacrafice...that's interesting to me.  The fact that her faith is being so bombarded in this strange place makes her sympathetic to me.  I don't think she's unintelligent.  I think she's very smart, just not good at compromising her standards.  Even though it gets her in trouble, that makes her more likable to me, not less.  If she'd jumped straight into immodest dresses just to blend in better, well, it may have been smarter, but it also would have made her someone else -- someone less devoted.  And it would have taken away her biggest struggle, in my opinion: reconciling her religion with this strange world.

As for the prostitute issue, I also thought that was a bit heavy.  At this point, after only a week, I think she'd be more likely to look over there and shiver.  It took a few days for her to decide to steal.  How many more weeks or months or years would it take for her to become that desperate?  I think she would have a feeling of perhaps pity them and dread for herself.  I would like it if there was at least something of her religion that she could cling to, esspecially in her desperate situation.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 15, 2007, 07:35:25 PM
Perhaps, lacks purpose was the wrong way of putting it but I think lost is better.  All the same whether she has made mistakes or not pathetic as it may have been for her to make that first stubborn headstrong decision to chase after Siri, as she was telling herself, at least she was not wallowing.  She made a decision and has had to live with the consequences.  She has just been delt so many that it seems to have weakened her, possibly too much.  But there is that need to know where Brandon is going with this because he obviously has a plan or he would not have invested so many pages in her. 

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 15, 2007, 07:51:51 PM
What I am still concerned with is - why hasn't Vivena even *asked* about a way to contact Siri?

The lack of communication in general is something that's puzzled me.  Siri has had no communications from and has made no attempt to communicate with her father -- and there are apparently no Idris diplomats in Hallendren for her to talk to, either.  The father has made no attempt to communicate with Lemks and the spy network, and has apparently not noticed his disappearance.  And the spy network apparently consisted of just Lemks.

However, two things occur to me:

1) This is only a first or second draft, and it'll be easy enough for EUOL to address many of these concerns in a subsequent draft.

2) Based just on reading Elantris, EUOL seems to be an author who likes to make his readers think a character or briefly-mentioned plot element is gone for good, and then bring it back at the end in some sort of twist.  Especially with so many characters still unknown (Vasher, Lightsong, etc.), I kind of want to wait until the end to see how things go.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 15, 2007, 08:59:58 PM
It is hard to draw conclusions without having the whole picture.

On communications and the spy network:

I'm fairly sure Lemks was not the only member of the spy network, just the only one that Siri knows about.  Spy networks are secret, after all.  The lack of Idris diplomats is odd, though...

As for Siri contacting her father, I doubt she would even think of it.  She never got along with most people in Idris very well, and was at least a little angry over being sent.  I would have expected her to look for diplomats for advice, though.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 15, 2007, 09:56:32 PM
I've always wondered why Viveena didn't try to get in touch with her sister.  I mean, she goes to see the talks (and check on Siri) and then after that she just... drops it.  If her main point was to get her sister out of there, and take her place (which it was at the beginning) then she hasn't done much in way of getting that done.  I'm wondering if maybe she did try to send something out, but it was intercepted or something.  I mean, I would love to see it be handled as a "Denth, will you see this gets to my sister?" and he never send them.  It's logical, and simple to understand, but you never actually see until the end when her and Siri talk and she's all like "Didn't you get my messages?!"  But that's my thought...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 16, 2007, 05:13:24 AM
The fact that Vivenna never really tried to get in contact with Siri is actually the easiest non-communication to accept for me.  I can accept that psychologically Vivenna just didn't really ever want to, that she came to Hallendren more for herself than for Siri.  After going to check on Siri in the Court, she probably realizes that whatever vague plans she may have had for switching places and recapturing her destiny just wouldn't work, and that's when she and the mercs really start to work on hurting Hallendren -- which I imagine for Vivenna had a psychological component as well.

Anyway I'm sure Denth would protest against it (no way to get a secure letter too her, Vivenna too visible now with the rumors to go back to the Court, etc.) and something could always be added to that effect.  The mail thing is a good idea, too, though.  I could also imagine Denth intercepting mail from Vivenna's father to Lemks and the spies...could be something that factors in later, or something else Vivenna sees along with the dead pets and dead Peprin.

With Siri...no matter what the personal relationship she had with her father, I guess I'd have expected him to say to her before she goes something like, "war is coming no matter what, and you need to use your position in the God King's Court to help us.  You need to discover what you can about their attack plans, troops, line of command, etc., talk to the diplomats of other the countries, and report back to us via X diplomat or Y spy or using Z code."  From a logistical point of view I understand this is tough -- Siri isn't a political animal a la Sarene, and too many scenes of her sitting in on the priest debates would be as boring for the reader as for Siri.  Still, as things are now I end up feeling that Siri has been woefully neglectful in looking out for her home country.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 16, 2007, 06:40:40 AM
Well initally, she was just trying to make sure that she didn't get killed by offend Subron, and then after she realized that wasn't going to happen, her focus went to not getting killed because she gives birth to a heir.  Right now her main focus is on trying to stay alive.  She doesn't really know that her sister is even in the city, and the only thing she knows about the war is that they're discussing it, and I think she's going to stumble across a way to stop the war in trying to save their lives.  (least wise, that's what I'm hoping for.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on January 17, 2007, 08:25:23 PM
New chapter is here:  Chapter Forty Two (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-042-1.0.doc)

Great discussion this time around. 

I think I may indeed have to do something to get Vivenna to at least think about contacting Siri.  MattD’s explanation of why it wouldn't work is a good one, but she should at least think about it--then I can decide whether her psychology will talk herself out of it, or whether Denth will stop it. Nice catch, all.

As for Vivenna...well, you'll have to see where this goes.  I don't include characters in books just to teach them lessons.  I include them because the characters interest me.  I intended for Vivenna to be more competent, but once I placed her in Hallandren, I just couldn't justify it.  Her part in the plot right now, as I see it, has been to give us eyes to watch what is unfolding.  Someone caught up in all of it, someone who has a large stake in it.  But, also, some other things.  Chapter forty-three gives us some explanations, many of which you guys have already guessed. 

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 17, 2007, 09:52:46 PM
Great chapter!!!  I was laughing the entire way through... and now I can't wait to see what Lightsong will do, both with the commands, as well as his petition's.  He always felt guilty for not helping, so maybe he'll stop his guilt by doing what Allmother did... I would love to see how he would be both good and bad at helping at the same time... maybe giving suggestions that at the time of suggesting them sound completely insane, but turn out really good (a guy with a stutter comes asking for it to be cured, and Lightsong tells him to tell stories, and in the end the guy ends up doing Opera singing because when he sings he looses his stutter type thing).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on January 18, 2007, 07:27:52 AM
I really liked this chapter, especially Allmother. I think that she quite nicely halts any way that Lightsong could have gotten out of DOING something, if , and when, a war finally breaks out. Well done :)

I hope to see much more improvement in Vivenna, and am extremely encouraged by your response to our questions and discussions about her plight. I anxiously await this chapter every week, with school being so hectic and homework heavy this quarter, it is the only "fun" reading that I get to do. So, thank you for that. :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on January 18, 2007, 06:44:25 PM
Again, Lightsong gives a 10/10 performance.  The look into Allmother's petitioners was amazing.  It put a refreshing spin on how the religion could work, and at how the people would still have faith in their "gods."  However, the forshadowing of the unrest puts the entire scene in a dark mood, and was perfectly done.  The humor of Lightsong and Allmother, I see, is only a nervous cover.  She is deadly serious - which I think is good to see in a new God character - and a wonderful contrast to Lightsong.

*spoiler*

Allmother sharing her Lifeless codes with Lightsong is the best thing that could have happened to his character.  He is still burdened with responsibility and power, and I could practically feel him sigh.  This action (combined with the aged description with Allmother, she won't last long , I bet) pretty much cancels out Lightsong giving his Breath away to save anyone, who is not crucial to winning the war (as defined by Lightsong).

After Denth turning on Vivenna, this is the best turn in the story so far.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 19, 2007, 05:58:15 AM
Great chapter, I didn't stop laughing the whole time.  Excellent way to force Lightsong into some responsibility.

No, Allmother is not going to last long, with her aged appearance, caring for the people and reference to a need to spread out the commands.

I think Lightsong is more interested in stopping the war than winning it, and now I definitely think he is going to give up his breath for Susebron.

Hopefully, we will also be learning more about Calmseer.  She is important in some way we don't know about yet.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 19, 2007, 08:31:55 PM
I agree.  Bravo!  Fantastic Chapter!  *applause* 

I love that we truly see Lightsong's direct distrust of Blushweaver.  He has been toying with her for so long avoiding her overtures etc.  I love it.  I can about see Blushweaver's reaction if she find's out he has Allmother's commands.  Such a twist in the back when she finds he never intended to give them to her. 

By far I have to say Lightsong is my favorite character, Siri is a close second.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 22, 2007, 04:45:12 AM
I just had another of my brilliant ideas (please, no eye rolling) about how Susebron could use his breath or give it away.

In normal Awakening, when you speak you combine two elements: language and perfect pitch.  The Artisan's script is another language, so that element is already present, but perhaps perfect coloration could be substituted for perfect pitch.

Also, where an Awakener using their voice must be holding something of color, would one using the Artisans' script need to be listening to a sound?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 22, 2007, 05:36:21 AM
I think... you may have just hit on how he is going to be able to use his breaths.  Since part of the script is color, using the perfect color would work.  Now I can't wait to see if you're right.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on January 22, 2007, 06:13:15 AM
Very nice theory. :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on January 24, 2007, 09:18:49 PM
New chapter is here:  Chapter Forty Three (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-043-1.0.doc)

Discussion has already covered some of the things that come up here, but I'm glad to finally get to this chapter so that we can clear some things up. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on January 25, 2007, 02:17:37 AM
YAY! VASHER IS THE GOOD GUY. So... I guess Blushweaver is the goddess who is trying to get the war started?? I really don't see why they would want to have a war either. I guess she obviosly doesn't like Siri but that's not really a reason to start a war, right? Or maybe she's just bored and wants some purpose in the court. She feels useless or something.

I felt the end to the chapter to be a little corny. “Let’s get to work, then,” seemed a bit on the corny side... also, would she really just instantly trust Vasher? I know he saved her and all but he had kidnapped her and treated her very poorly before and threatened to kill her if she ran away. Just because the other guys became the bad guys doesn't always mean that the bad guys become the good guys... well I guess they usually do in fiction but would she really just assume this? I think she kinda needed more time to decide to trust him... maybe?

Any thoughts?!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on January 25, 2007, 02:23:57 AM
Thank goodness she really isn't that stupid, and not too proud to admit her mistakes, not only to herself, but to others as well.

Sorry if that didn't make sense, but it was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that chapter. I am also glad that Vasher is as I felt him to be, not a bad guy, just bad with people. :) I understand that failing, I have it from time to time, but not quite as fully as he does.

This is feeling like things are going to be moving a bit quickly from this point on, and I love it when Brandon's books get to that point. Very good chapter I thought.

As for trusting Vasher right off, he had a week to kill her while she was recovering, and did not do so. In the mind of a rational person, as Vivenna supposedly is, this would mean that he didn't intend to kill her at all. It would not only have been much easier, but he didn't have to give her the proper command to get her Breath back either. He could have left her as a Drab. Both good points if arguing for the trusting issue.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on January 25, 2007, 02:36:12 AM
I'm about halfway through this chapter...so far so good, except:

The sword in Denth’s hand was obviously enough to ward the girl away. 
("I always was my own worst enemy," he remarked, as he tossed away his latex Vasher-mask.)

Also,

I note that, considering Vivenna has just realized Denth was lying to her, she's awfully quick to believe in Vasher's version of events.

...also, I was slightly disappointed that the sword didn't get to say anything this chapter.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on January 25, 2007, 02:50:30 AM
Dawn --

You're right that Vasher obviously doesn't want to kill Vivenna. Then again, neither did Denth.

Instead, Vasher wants to use Vivenna to convince the Idrisese (or whatever) to do something (or not, as the case may be)...just like Denth did.

It is conceivable that getting the Idrisese to submit to the Halladrens is no more in their best interests than trying to start a war with them was. (The only reason it could be is Vasher's assurance that the war is still avoidable -- which might or might not be true.) It's also possible that the only reason Vasher let Vivenna know the command to get her breath back was because she wouldn't have been a very convincing princess if she were still sick.

So it's still possible that both Vasher and Denth are bad guys (though of course, Vasher hasn't yet  clinched the issue by kicking the dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog"), or parrot, as the case may be). I'm not saying that this is likely, but considering Vivenna's recent experiences, she'd probably at least consider it. (Someone once said, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on, er, shame on you.")
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 25, 2007, 03:23:46 AM
Thoughts

That was overall a very nice, meaty chapter.  Yes, some of it we guessed and that's satisfying, but I can't say how much of it I would have guessed had I been reading this as a book, over the span of hours rather than months.  And even having guessed some of it, it was still fun to read as a matter of story.  I think the part I always like the most in the stories of EUOL's that I've read are when the separate character storylines start to converge, seeing how the characters we've been spending so much time with act and react around each other.  It's sort of like when you introduce friends to each other.

Two things nagged at me:

- (Edit: as DavidB just mentioned...) For Vivenna to just accept that Vasher won't tell her what his goals are and to follow along anyway...I guess old habits may die hard for her, but after all that she's been through, I'm rather disappointed in her.  I'd expect her to react more in some way; her lack of reaction makes me think she hasn't really learned anything.  She's just being dragged around again, used as a pawn in someone else's plan.   (Edit: ...although unlike DavidB I'm not really concerned with whether Vasher may be "a bad guy," but more with Vivenna and her portrayal as someone who has grown and learned when she at heart is making the same mistakes.)

(I actually had a similar reaction to part of the last chapter: when Lightsong was trying to give away his Command words, it really negated a lot of the self-discovery he'd been doing in his previous chapters -- my reaction was, "no, hasn't he learned better by now!?!")

- Vivenna's sickness continues to obscure how much an effect not having Breath has on a person.  Jewels is a Drab, but Denth or Tonk Fah say that her surly demeanor is just her nature.  Now we're actually in Vivenna's shoes as a Drab, and she's being kind of...drab...but now we learn that she was sick at the same time, too.  It feels like a cumbersome way to obfuscate the moral significance of giving/taking Breath.

Speculation

I don't know if it really works, but it would be clever if Vivenna and Siri's father was the one behind the warmongering.  That would explain his certainty in the early chapters that war would happen; his thinking that sending a daughter would be a "sacrifice"; and after all, Hallendren was his family's kingdom before the Manywar, he has the most reason -- the only solid reason I think we've been presented with -- to want war.

Questions

Can someone without Breath (a Drab) sense the Breaths of someone else who has one or many?

If Breath is stored in an object (say a shawl) and that object is broken, ripped, etc., what happens to those Breaths?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 25, 2007, 04:25:09 AM
Well, Brandon, you have redeemed Vivenna a bit, just a bit.  Though, as many have already said, it seems too much for her to accept what Vasher tells her so easily.  She still seems so gullible. Especially, since I might think she'd be just a bit jaded after all that has happened.  I know part of it must be to continue keeping Vasher's intentions veiled.  But, being clean and cared for does not make up for his original kidnapping and I would want to swallow the cud that he's feeding her no matter how much she wants to believe it.  Of course, he shows her by taking her to the men to speak to.  But up until that point she is too accepting.  If that is her nature it is going to get her killed.  It needs a "Prove it to me!" or "Why should I believe you?" or demanding an oath of honor if there is something comparable in this world.  Something for Vivenna to latch onto and show a little spine.  Just an inch, but something.

Quote
- When Vivenna says "But, the Idrians here in the slums--I’ve seen their strength.  I know that they are more wise in these areas than I am." Has she earned that knowledge?

Why not, she experienced it first hand trying to speak to them and not connecting because at that point she really did not understand them it took her time to figure it out.  Plus she lived on the streets and had time to bear witness there too and sees herself as week even in comparison to the girl she thinks might pick their pockets.   To her she is the fool and admits so freely to herself and others.  I think it shows the beginnings of real humility and lends her strength to make such an admission considering her position.  Okay so it gives her a little spine.  The girl needs more.

Quote
Speculation

I don't think it works, but it would be clever if Vivenna and Siri's father was the one behind the warmongering.  That would explain his certainty in the early chapters that war would happen; his thinking that sending a daughter would be a "sacrifice"; and after all, Hallendren was his family's kingdom before the Manywar, he has the most reason -- the only solid reason I think we've been presented with -- to want war.

Interesting, Daddy has been quite quiet and Brandon mentioned to me that this is 59 chapters long.  Much longer than had been predicted before and it make room for many more things to occur. Hmm....  I think that front needs to be heard from but.... I think the likelyhood that it is Blushweaver is stronger. For Blushweaver it is a powertrip, she obviously likes sewing deceit and is jocking for position to get those codes for the lifeless armies and she is right there in the thick of things and Vasher says that Denth's corrupted Lemks and that there was someone or some force at work in the Hallendren Gov't that wants this.  No doubt Daddy, Idrian King (forget his name), has gotten corrupt information because of it and would bring War to bear more quickly.  But again, it has been a long time since we have heard from him so that too lessens the likelyhood. 

• 
Quote
Vasher laughed a barking laugh, and Vivenna flushed.  Her hair--responding to her mood for the first time since her shock at seeing peprin dead--turned red.
    Peprin needs capitalized.

Ok I am tired. And I am not sure I can make sense any longer.

G'nite,
Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 25, 2007, 04:53:20 AM
Pterath,

I actually cut the first quote you refer to out of my message shortly after writing it...the sentences I mention rubbed me the wrong way when I read them, but after thinking about it a bit I can see interpretations that make more sense.  It's more a matter of street smarts than strength and wisdom.

The idea that the Idris King might be involved doesn't preclude Blushweaver also being involved.  Perhaps they are allied?  But the whole thing is just an idea based on vague impressions left by this chapter, the first time that war was presented as less than a certainty, and is not something that I fully believe myself.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 25, 2007, 05:39:46 AM
Actually, I thought about the king being involved before, but couldn't come up with good enough examples from the text to meantion it, so I let it lie... now that others are bring it up, it doesn't make me feel as crazy.

I personally think that Vivenna was too passive when she first saw Vasher.  I mean, if I were in her situation, having been treated as badly as I did the first time I was with him, my first reaction would be to cower in the corner, or else yell at him... and most definatly not trust him.  I would be like "why are you being so nice after last time?" and force him to explain last time...  The fact that she's basically ignoring that bugs me.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on January 25, 2007, 07:04:48 AM
Man, you guys keep me honest.  I think I noticed this, and unconciously compensated for it in the next Vivenna chapter.  There's a line where she thinks "Now, I have to be careful not to trust this guy too much and get taken in the same way I did with Denth."  However, that doesn't fix the fact that she SHOULD have been thinking that in this chapter.  Thanks for the commentary.

You may be interested to know that I just rewrote the scene where Vivenna hears Clod's Command Phrase, going off of suggestions from you all.  Here is the new version, in case you are curious:  (This will be part of the 3.0 edit, which I should post sometime next week.)  This comes in chapter 35, I believe.

      Jewels worked quietly, ignoring Vivenna and pulling another stitch tight.  Clod’s guts--intestines, stomach, and the rest--lay on the floor beside him, carefully pulled out and arranged so that they could be stitched.  Jewels was working on the intestines at the moment, sewing with a thread and needle.
   It was gruesome.  And yet, it didn’t really affect Vivenna.  Not after the shock she’d had earlier.  They were in the safe house.  Tonk Fah had gone to scout the regular house to see if Peprin was all right.  Denth was downstairs, fetching something.
   Vivenna sat on the floor.  She’d put her skirt back on, and sat with legs pulled up against her chest.  Jewels continued to ignore Vivenna, working atop a sheet on the floor.  She was muttering to herself, still angry.
   “Stupid thing,” Jewels said under her breath.  “Can’t believe we let you get hurt like this just to protect her.”
   Hurt.  Did that even mean anything to a creature like Clod?  He was awake; she could see that his eyes were open.  What was the point of sewing up his insides?  Would they heal?  He didn’t need to eat.  Why bother with intestines?  Vivenna shivered, looking away.  She felt, in a way, as if her own insides had been ripped out.  Exposed.  Shown for the world to see.
   Vivenna closed her eyes.  Hours later, and she was still shaking from the terror of huddling in that alleyway, thinking that she’d soon be killed.  What had she proven to be, when finally threatened?  Modesty had meant nothing--she’d pulled of her skirt rather than let it trip her again.  Her hair had meant nothing--she’d ignored it as soon as the danger arrived.
   Her religion, apparently, meant nothing to her.  Not that she’d been able to use the Breath--she hadn’t even managed to commit blasphemy correctly.
   “I’m half tempted to just leave,” Jewels muttered.  “You and I.  Go away.”
   Clod began to shuffle, and Vivenna opened her eyes to see him trying to stand up, even though his insides were hanging out.
   Jewels swore.  “Sit back down,” she hissed, barely audible.  “Colors-cursed thing.  Howl of the sun.  Go inactive.  Howl of the sun.”
   Vivenna watched as Clod laid down, then stopped moving.  They might obey commands, she thought.  But they aren’t very smart.  It tried to walk out, obeying Jewels’ perceived Command to ‘go away.’  And, what was that nonsense Jewels had said about the sun?
   She heard footsteps on the stairs leading down to the cellar, and soon the door opened and Denth appeared.  He closed the door, then walked over and handed Jewels something that looked like a large wineskin.  The woman took it, then immediately turned back to her work.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 25, 2007, 07:41:48 AM
Now that REALLY makes me think Clod is a more complex character than the typical lifeless, even if that doesn't say much.  I's also like to know who he was.

As far as the King of Idris being involved in trying to start the war, I think it is plain from early chapters that he does not want a war, only believes it to be inevitable.  Most of what he knows would be based on Lemks' reports, so he may have be being used as a pawn like Vivenna was.

About Vivenna...it's hard to say how a person would react in circumstances like that.  She has just spent the last week thinking about how incapable and worthless she is and how much damage she has just done; at this point she has no more idea what to do than she did when she was on the streets.  Making any sort of decision in that circumstance would be extremely difficult, and most would react by either refusing to do anything at all or letting someone else do their thinking for them.  The latter plan will not help with avoiding being used, but it is definitely easy.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility that Vasher is a sort-of-good guy.  He is apparently against war and wholesale slaughter, but definitely does not have problems with fighting or small-scale slaughter.

Official Predictions of Master Bombadil (for what they're worth):

I am now quite certain that Vasher will teach Vivenna to use her breaths.

I am also now convinced that Susebron will use his breaths at the end of the book, likely to stop the war.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 25, 2007, 03:08:48 PM
I like the rewritten scene -- it flows nicely, doesn't feel forced.

Oh, and I withdraw my first question...

Quote
Can someone without Breath (a Drab) sense the Breaths of someone else who has one or many?

...as it seems clear that the answer is "no."  Still curious about the second, mainly in an academic way.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 25, 2007, 04:28:51 PM
Sorry Matt,  I had my reply page open for a few hours and evidentally had done so before you edited it and I finally posted and did not look back until this morning.

As for Vivenna perhaps I want her to gather her wits and use them too much.  And she really isn't lacking in intelligence it is her seeming continued gullibility that rankles.  I mean how many times do you have to get smacked down before you 1 give up entirely or 2 finally stand up and say I am not doing this any more?  Whether that be being used because it seems that is what Vasher starts to do here much like Denth.  They are similar in their there actions but carry it out for different reasons. Or whether it is just her deciding she needs to be more critical in her thinking before making decisions.  It is obviously easier for Vasher to show than tell but she seems to tag at his heels a little too easily.  At the very least she should be thinking on it.

Nice changes in that scene Brandon.  Much more believable.

How can Clod be more complex than the typical lifeless?  We haven't seen many to compare to.  Clod just reacts to what he saw as a command from Jewels.  Once give a command they follow it until another is given.  Just like the squirrel.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 25, 2007, 04:59:18 PM
Pterath,

Actually, the squirrel is another thing that niggled at me–it seemed a rather smart squirrel.  Perhaps Vasher is good at picking squirrels.

A Drab can sense breaths in others, only it is more difficult.  Anyone can easily see the auras of the Returned, but to see that of someone with far fewer breaths requires either close examination or the heightened sense of color provided by BioCroma.

Vivenna SHOULD think more critically, but critical thinking is difficult and requires you to rely on your own wits.  Vivenna has lost much confidence and I don't think she trusts herself to make her own decisions.  Also, while Vasher is using her, he tells her so rather than hiding it (though that might only be because she knows he is).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on January 25, 2007, 06:06:32 PM
A Drab can sense breaths in others, only it is more difficult.  Anyone can easily see the auras of the Returned, but to see that of someone with far fewer breaths requires either close examination or the heightened sense of color provided by BioCroma.

Can they?  In the scene in this chapter where Vivenna regains her Breath, it is only then that she seems to perceive all the Breath that Vasher has himself.

Anyway, it's not an important question...I had remembered that Jewels (a Drab) had been the one to report to Denth that Vasher had a lot of Breath, but when I went back to re-read that scene, it was clear that Jewels had heard that he had a lot of Breath, it was not something she had seen herself.

Actually, the squirrel is another thing that niggled at me–it seemed a rather smart squirrel.  Perhaps Vasher is good at picking squirrels.

This was actually the most interesting thing to me about the previous Lightsong chapter, the way that the squirrel was able (to Llarimar's surprise) to carry out a complex set of instructions.  Did Vasher prepare it in some special way, does he have some secret knowledge?  Or do even the Returned and their priests not fully understand what Breath is and how it works?  Ever since the discussion we had about the magic system a few weeks ago, and in particular the person/object distinction, I've been mulling over exactly what Breath is in the back of my mind.  The fact that they may not have all the answers makes me feel better about the fact that I don't, either.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on January 25, 2007, 06:37:23 PM
First, about Drabs being able to sense Breaths. I agree with the sentiment that they can not sense them. If I remember right, there is a part earlier on that has Jewels not being able to sense someone with a large number of Breaths. I don't know if I am remembering this correctly, but for some reason that is what I have in my head.

As for Vivenna's trust in Vasher. Personally, I didn't feel like she really had a whole lot of choices in the matter. Yes, I would have probably liked a bit of internal argument, but having been cared for by him, not beaten for eating his food, and having him allow her back her Breaths, (couldn't he have controlled her more easily without them), showed that even if he was to use her, it would not be by force. And he was a bit more honest and forthcoming as the chapter progressed. He definitely isn't what I would call chatty, but he does clue her in a bit.

Maybe I am just wanting him to be the "good guy" even if he does go about it in what normal people would consider to be the wrong way.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 25, 2007, 07:16:56 PM
The way people sense BioCromatic auras is by the brightening of colors around the person with the aura: fireworks are brighter around the returned, white splits into its components near Susebron, etc.

People with less noticeable auras (such as Vivenna now) have less noticeable auras that most people must look closely to see.  People with large numbers of Breaths are more able to see the colors, and can sense the changes caused by auras more easily.

I think what you are thinking about with Jewels is that she is not able to sense people watching or approaching her, i.e. she has to actually look at someone to know they're there, while people with Breath are able to sense others' presence.  Drabs are less aware of others.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: U-Boat on January 26, 2007, 12:51:09 AM
Hey EUOL, how many chapters are planned altogether?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on January 26, 2007, 01:10:02 AM
In regards to the squirrel and the general intelligence of the lifeless, perhaps, it is the amount of breath that is put into the lifeless that aids in the creature's intelligence.  Complete supposition but I reread the first chapter  where Vasher is awakening the straw figure and the cloak, there are references right there for this to make sense.  If it takes fewer breaths to awaken something that has a *human* shape then can the Awakener control the number of breaths he puts into his Awakening?  

Quote
I'm glad you're liking Warbreaker.  The book is actually 59 chapters
long, so with 43 being up today, we're over 2/3 of the way done.
Vasher, from now on, takes a much larger role in the book.  I was afraid
to use him too much early on lest I spoil the mystery surrounding his
motives and the like.

That is what Brandon wrote in response to an e-mail I wrote him in December.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on January 26, 2007, 02:16:55 AM
I think Brandon said somewhere that Awakeners can't control how much breath goes into something, only guess and chose what to awaken based on that.

As for Lifeless intelligence, we know that the squirrel's intelligence can't be attributed to having more Breaths, because Vasher only used one to awaken it.  The most probable explanation so far seems to be that it was a smarter than average squirrel while it was alive.

Speaking of squirrel minds, squirrels have practically no long-term memory.  Could this have be true of the Lifeless as well, and could Vasher have chosen to use a squirrel because it would not have any memories of him?  I don't have any idea whether a Lifeless even has a memory, but I can't help wondering.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on January 26, 2007, 03:48:06 PM
I think Brandon said somewhere that Awakeners can't control how much breath goes into something, only guess and chose what to awaken based on that.

If items are more "human-like" then they require less breaths to activate.  Vashar's chapters tell us that a number of times.  I think there would be some kind of catalog in Hallendren listing the average amounts of breath something takes to awaken.  If there is an economy on selling breaths, then the higher ups will know how many breaths its takes to reach each Heightening / awaken / etc.


As for Vivena...  I think the Drab-state is kind of a cop out.  (Sorry Brandon!)  Her week of poverty still seemed rushed, and I - as a reader - did not experience it.  If I can't go through what she did, then I have no emotional investment in her character.  The way she just believes Vashar and then helps him meet with more people, does not sow how smart she is - just that she has given up trying, and is happy to be a tool to be used.  And that's all she has ever wanted, was to be useful. 

I agree that there should be some sword dialogue here.  Maybe a conversation that parallels the sword talking about the shirt - "I'm way better than a girl.  It looks like she couldn't kill anything."  Or something like that.

I like Vashar's descriptions of Denth - it outlines both characters nicely and in a simple believable way.  Nice work on that!

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on January 31, 2007, 11:00:44 AM
New chapter is early.  Actually, this is TWO chapters, but the second one is really, really short, so I put it in this download.  In answer to the question--which has already been answered--there are indeed 59 chapters in the book, so that puts us as only fourteen weeks left.  I do have the book done, but I'd rather post them one a week because that gives me a lot better feedback.  If I posted the whole thing, the discussion would go too many directions at once, and I wouldn't be able to get the chapter-by-chapter suggestions that I like so much. 

Chapters Forty Four and Forty Five (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-044-45-3.0.doc)

Also, based on comments from the peanut gallery, I reworked chapter forty-three in this version, making Vivenna's motivations for working with Vasher more apparent.  If anyone wants to give it a look through and see if the changes made a difference, look here:

Forty-three 3.0 (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-043-3.0.doc)

Let's see...other revisions.  Since this was a line edit, mostly, I didn't do a lot of big changes.  In chapter twenty-five, I mention that Siri listened at the wall, and thought she heard priests leaving after her 'act' was done, a way for me to explain why she can talk to Susebron so much and not arouse suspicions.   Can't remember any more at the moment--some small tweaks, with the biggest change coming in a chapter I haven't posted yet.  Also, sorry about the typos I let creep in when I did the 2.0 draft.  Whew!  I caught a lot when I did this revision.


I'm probably going to podcast an audio version of Warbreaker starting in the summer.  Again, completely free--though, I might stick an advertisement for an Elantris audiobook (which will be sold through my website for about five bucks) on the end of every chapter. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on January 31, 2007, 07:32:33 PM
Before I devour these wonderful early treats, I would like to officially protest at the term "peanut gallery" and instead would prefer the term: "endearing, thoughtful, intelligent fans; who love my work and offer insightful viewpoints."

Yeah.  I think that has a nice ring to it =)

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nice work.  Siri's chapters are hands down the best.  But did she call Susebron, "Seb" ?  Smooth ending, well timed and executed.

Chapter 45!?!  You can't do that!  It's... it's...  unfair! 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Goradel on January 31, 2007, 08:08:07 PM
Romantic Times is going to love this :-*.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on January 31, 2007, 11:20:59 PM
Oh wow... I love this stuff!!!  I liked how you left everything off... let see how "Seb" reacts to having a new knowledge of what the act for the priests was actually for... lololol.  AND WHAT WAS WITH THE NEXT CHAPTER?!  SHORT is not the correct term... ULTIMATE CLIFFIE OF TORTURE would be more correct.  *pout*  Can't we have even a sneak peek?

And now I know that I can't even start the chapters at work anymore, because it's gotten to that point where it's going to be nothing but revelations after this point.  More torture...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 01, 2007, 01:13:11 AM
So I have this hilarious picture in my head of "Seb" (that just doesn't work for me) pausing like every 30 seconds to scribble down something like "oh" and "yes," finally trailing off to a bunch of exclamation points.  :o

Seriously, the scene didn't necessarily feel unrealistic -- put two people together like Siri and Susebron have been and something will happen more often than not -- but it did feel a little...typical, I guess.  Unsurprising.  Plus Warbeaker seems to be undoing a lot of the good that Sarene did in Elantris, towards showing female characters who aren't the stereotypical "emotional woman."  Heck, even Jewels is now wishing she and Clod could just escape from this all.

(Of course, that's my feeling now; I reserve the right to change my mind by the end of the book.)

The more little bits we learn the more confused I get about some things.  In addition to the person/object distinction with Breath, there's the person/Returned distinction, too.  Although is there any reason the God King has to be a Returned?  Do we even really know (regardless of what we've been told) that Susebron is a Returned?  Maybe the Priests expect him to be able to father a child because he's not.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on February 01, 2007, 02:42:30 AM
I'm glad that Euol isn't raunchy (is  that how you spell raunchy?). I got enough pictures in my head of this GIANT man and this little hair color changing girl doing it on the floor in a bunch of food. tee hee.

I also like the nick name Seb. I've never quite gotten how to say his name and nick names are fun.

I actually LOVED the second chapter... 45? I think it's a great way to state something quickly with a huge amount of emphasis! Every book needs these!

So, the lifeless are killing people in bright colors? Like the city guard? Maybe Allmother and Lightsong decide to fight against their side or something? This is gonna be good!!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on February 01, 2007, 03:37:27 AM
I don't mind Seb it seems natural coming from Siri.  Her full name is quite the mouthful too and she is the only one in her family with a nickname.  What else would she call him?  Sus... too weird, Bron... too neanderthal....  Anyway, i like Seb.

Yeah, raunchy is how you spell it.  And I can deal occasionally with Erotica in stuff but it doesn't fit in here and I like how tastefully that was handled.  Seemed very natural and while typical the eventuality was somewhat expected. 

I don't think Siri or Vivenna even as stereotypical in some aspects maybe but you need the emotion to drive some of these other characters too.  Susebron has not really been allowed to emote and Vasher is Mr. Self-contained, I don't play well with others.  Somehow I feel the more emotional females in a way offset that a bit.  Susebron would not be very interesting without Siri to react to...

Nice improvement on Chpt 43.  Vivenna seems a bit more real now and even Vasher is a little more flushed out.

Kel

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on February 01, 2007, 06:26:02 AM
You people all to seem to be making a big deal out of 'Seb,' but that nickname has been used before I'm pretty sure.

I don't think Susebron is Returned; that is why he will be able to use/pass on his Breath, and why he gains more from the people who give their Breath to him (a normal Returned doesn't gain more Breath, only energy to survive another week).  His priests have been giving him 2-4 Breaths a week, rather than the normal 1, both to grow his collection of Breaths and so that he doesn't get suspicious when he doesn't fade like a normal Returned would.  Also, the explanation that 'the God King is different' is used much too often for it to actually be true.

I like the way EUOL handled the end of 44; somehow raunchy just wouldn't work with 'Seb.'

So is Lightsong going to tell his priests about his dream, is he going to believe it is prophetic and, if so, what will he do about it?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 01, 2007, 08:30:12 AM
Nice work with that chapter, and the following one too if it must be known :) I kind of like the suspense.

I agree that the God King is different, and probably not Returned. As was stated, just too many clues point that way, and they do expect him to be able to create a child after all.

What I found interesting was the coinciding timeline between Susebron and Siri finally getting to the act, and Lightsong's dreams finally being specific in their violence. I have noticed that the closer Seb and Siri got the worse Lightsong's dreams became. Maybe I am reading too much into the timing, but it seems relevant to me. Has anyone else noticed the timing of the dreams, or am I imagining it?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: U-Boat on February 01, 2007, 01:24:42 PM
This is torture.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DragonFly on February 01, 2007, 03:23:28 PM
I think the re-worked chapter 43 is better, but I would still like to hear more internal dialogue from Vivenna before she starts preaching to the Idrians about tolerance for the Hallendran ways. Maybe it will be different when I can read the whole book, but to me, she needs a few moments of putting her experiences together in her own mind before she voices her new-found ideas.

I agree with the others--the inevitable in chapter 44 was very well handled. And, it's exciting to see the plot advancing, and yes, it's torture! Although I do like having time to think about the chapter for a week before we get the next glimpse.

I'm not sure I agree about Susebron not being Returned.  He has all the physical characteristics of a Returned being. Besides, the scenario Siri described is more diabolical--right in line with the controlling methods of the priesthood.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on February 01, 2007, 05:13:28 PM
I think Susebron may have the physical characteristics of a Returned because of his Breath.  We found out that enough BioCroma prevents disease and extends life, so enough may physically enhance someone.

Also, we don't know how Returning works or if a baby can Return.  I would think that Returning babies scattered throughout the empire would be difficult to cover; anyone with that much BioCroma will be difficult to cover up or move unnoticed.

I'd also like to know what the rumors Blushweaver mentioned when she said she didn't think the God King's children were all Returned are...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on February 01, 2007, 06:51:20 PM
Also, we don't know how Returning works or if a baby can Return.  I would think that Returning babies scattered throughout the empire would be difficult to cover; anyone with that much BioCroma will be difficult to cover up or move unnoticed.

Maybe this was hinted at when Siri was thinking about how the priesthood was timing things.  They could have already found a returned baby (if they are that rare, say, 1 every 50 years, would make sense.)

I don't like "Seb"...  "Sus" works, makes more sense.  Or maybe, "Kingie-poo"? Heh heh.

One thing I would 110% love to see: the red painting!  Lightsong needs to have kept that painting (as previously mentioned), and after the dream in the last chapter, he should run back to it, see something...  This is the point in the Brandon-style that we would all stay up all night, ans 1 layer after another would be revealed.  But with this work, I feel a little more left in the dark about a lot of things (which may or may not be good).  But that could also be because of the 1 chapter a week format (but, I admittedly ready the first 30 chapters all at once, 2.0 version).

I agree with MattD about the comparison of the women in Warbreaker to the women in Elantris (or even Vin from Mistborn).  The main characters of this book seem to be the women, but only Siri's growth seems real to me, and even then, its not too much.  Her forced isolation really stunts what her character could do.  Technically, she could have almost unlimited viewpoints of the Court of the Gods - even the priest hood would have had its spies (or even the Pahn).

Speaking of comparing books...  the one common theme in Elantris, Mistborn, and Warbreaker seem to be a theocratic repressive government/military force bent on control.  Hathran and his forces, the Steel Ministry (the "bone-monks" are easy to compare to the Inquisitors), and now the God-Kings priests (although, we really don't know a lot about them, they could be "good").    Not to hijack this thread, but, EUOL, was this intentional in this book?  Or did the whole idea of the Returned-Gods/Priest religion kind of evolve? 

I want to say this subject is the most important in Warbreaker, but its underdeveloped (mainly because of the main characters limited viewpoints and access to information), at least, as a reader I feel it should be the most important.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on February 01, 2007, 08:16:58 PM
Tjaeden,

It's intentional, and it's not intentional.  In a way, Warbreaker was a response against Mistborn.  I wanted to write a book where the heroes tried to do the OPPOSITE of what happened in Mistborn--in other words, where they tried to keep a government from being overthrown and where the 'dark lord' turned out to be a good guy. 

However, since I stuck mainly to the viewpoints of the sisters, it took a little bit longer to get to this theme than originally intended. 

Something to remember, also, is that while you're reading these Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, there are two Mistborn books in the middle that will come out between Mistborn and Warbreaker--and in both of those, the main characters ARE the government/military force. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on February 02, 2007, 04:51:34 PM
Thanks for the quick response!

I remember you writing about how Warbreaker is a response, in part with the colors.  But as for the plot, during the early chapters of Warbreaker, I honestly thought Denth and Vivena were using tactics that you might not have had room to put into Mistborn.  They had almost the same goal: use small guerrilla tactics to hit the enemy, while building support for a final attack (or defense, as in WB).

I think i see the development of Siri now, and how she wants to save Susebron - however, the "real" government of Hallendren has not yet been revealed to the reader.  We only know that the Returned are a kind of figure head-puppets, but we only see the lesser "gods", nothing of the God-King.  He hasn't given any laws to his priests, Siri (as the reader) has not asked about his "job" around the palace - nothing like that.

I know the second two Mistborn books will have a different kind of theme/goal, but all us readers have to go on is 2 and 3/4ths of your published works.

I was just really wondering if this was more of an issue you feel you need to tackle, or if you think its a plot device thats fresh to fantasy.  (I want to stay 100% away from real life religious discussions in this tr head, there are others for that, and I also believe that the best literary criticism leaves the author out of the work, so the work can stand on its own).

I think that when we as readers understand more of a central theme in a book, we can understand how the characters are "supposed" to develop and grow.  I think it also adds to the suspension of disbelief, and how well we get sucked in.  =)

Thanks again,
Justin
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: BakAttack on February 06, 2007, 08:51:12 AM
First off, let me say that I am by no means a literary expert. In fact, you'll quickly notice I probably don't know at all what I'm talking about, and say little through many words. I'm a math/physics to be linguistics major at Seattle University (Which Brandon apparently visited a few days before I started reading his book), and I love fantasy.

That said, I read a lot of fantasy, tor and other, and I enjoyed reading all three of the books Brandon has available (or 2 3/4). I'd just like to put forward some of my questions, and mild criticisms.

1) I read that you want this book to be a bit lighter than Mistborn and have less self-conflicted characters (I think), but you seem to have a small case of 'Robert Jordan' syndrome. You have what could be beautifully developed characters, but after a while I think they tend to 'speak' similarly. By speak I refer to inner dialogue and actual spoken dialogue. You may or may not be planning on changing this, and that's fine. It doesn't take too much away from anything, IMO.

2) I think I would have enjoyed a few more short chapters from Vasher's POV or even sections of chapters throughout the book.  You could probably do it without over-foreshadowing what is going to happen. It could even be misleading. Even a few short paragraphs from some of the more well known minor characters could be colorful.

3) You might have mentioned pacing, if I recall (That is another Robert Jordan thingy that gets me sometimes). I can't see the complete package, so I don't really know how much it needs to change.

4) I may have read the wrong draft, but if not I agree that the maid coming to join Siri didn't work too well.

5) You mentioned you haven't finished adding all the foreshadowing yet, but I like what you have in place for Vivenna. Added some much appreciated change of pace to an already exhillerating story.

6) You may have just designed it this way, but why is it that Returned cannot Breathe things to life without dying? You may have answered it in the book, unfortunately I see more in terms of big picture, and sometimes miss details. Or maybe it is to come.

7) Character development of Peprin(is that his name?) seemed varying. I was surprised that Vivenna cared at all about who/what he liked disliked.

8) Is Idris planning anything? No short Kingly narratives planned?

I love reading this book, I think it was a great idea on your part to share it online. These forums have a very nice atmosphere as well. I look forward to your work in the future.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on February 07, 2007, 06:24:54 PM
BakAttack,

Welcome and thank you so much for the comments.  Yes, I do worry about voice sometimes.  In this book, I may have leaned toward making everyone a little too glib, which I blame on Lightsong.  We shall see if I manage to write this out in drafting or not.  I agree that it's not a huge deal, but Vivenna in particular shouldn't be making many jokes.  I also plan to work on Peprin a bit more, and it's good to hear what you think about him, and also other issues.  All around very useful comments.  Thank you.


All,
New chapter:
Chapter forty-six (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-046-3.0.doc)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on February 08, 2007, 02:43:24 AM
...So nightblood is an awakened object with sentience and clod (was that his name) is obviously someone inportant in the crew and Vasher's past...

Very good chapter-

I liked Vivenna's thoughts here... she's really starting to understand how stupid her actions were before. That's nice to see... Not that she was stupid, just disillusioned like I thought before... It bugs me how Vasher won't answer her questions though. I wish he would/could be more open... if even just a little about nightblood. We don't even have an idea of why he/(it?) would make her sick when she touched it. It seemed like it was a test or something from their first meeting... anybody have any guesses about him, because I don't really?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: BakAttack on February 08, 2007, 03:24:57 AM
I think some important things were covered in this chapter.

I was just wondering if Lightsong's past self is a character who has been mentioned by other people in the story. Better said, if he is connected to Denth and Vasher at all (or anyone else)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 08, 2007, 03:38:03 AM
I think I understand about him not wanting to explain about Nightblood. He may be trying to be secretive about it, it may be something that he doesn't fully understand, or it could be that it just isn't something that he thinks she needs to know.

Ok first thing, since it is still fresh in my mind as it is in the end of the chapter, if it is a thin, well polished dueling blade, and she doesn't put it in a sheath, how can it be a sheathed sword when she picks it up? I think that those last couple of lines might need to have maybe her putting the sword in a sheath, or take out the well polished portion of the description unless she pulls it out of the sheath to have a look at it, or something like that.

Don't get me wrong, that isn't the thing that stuck in my mind the most, just the last thing that I thought of and I would have forgotten by the time I was done with the rest of the post. My mind is not what it used to be. ;)

What I think I liked most was the fact that Vivenna was taking that hard look at herself and her situation that was previously mentioned that she might need. I loved the internal chat with herself, and her attempts at Awakening. I think that through her discussions with Vasher she will learn everything that she needs to know about it, and I like that once he gets going on something he is more chatty. Maybe not personal information chatty, but any kind of chatty is nice from him.

I like that he can still scare her, it makes the situation more real to me. If he never made her nervous, or frightened her anymore I would have to wonder about her sanity, or intelligence. And since she is wondering about those things, I don't think she needs me thinking ill of her as well :)

I also like the fact that Vasher stays true to character and clams up at the first hint of anything that may give Vivenna too much information about who he is, where he is from, and who is important to him.

I came to the same conclusion as amyface, Nightblood is the fourth kind of Awakened object that he didn't want to discuss and warned Vivenna never to ask about again. I like that there is something there that we still don't know. And I eagerly await the next chapter. :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pterath on February 08, 2007, 03:41:13 AM
Yes, agreed. Yery good chapter.

Vasher a scholar... it makes sense with the ease he spoke of BioCromatic Breath etc...  I had begun to wonder if he was a Priest of one of the Returned at one point or another after the break-in to get to the tunnels.  Then add the that Lightsong's deal with Allmother.  You don't just toss your Lifeless codes away without thought.  That had forethought.  She may not have made the decision before that moment but Lifesong gave her too good of and opportunity to protect their interests.  But it makes me wonder again where exactly Vasher went using those tunnels - Allmother's temple would make sense.  Gave her vital information for what was happening outside the palace grounds.  Denth's dealings and the like.  *chews on that notion a while*

Nightblood is starting to make sense, your right. The 4th type.  The question is though, is killing a part of that?  Necessity the way it gains breath to continue like a Returned needs or is it the blood that sustains it?  Hm... Or was it created by using a Returned's (god) breath, one with a dark presence unlike Lifesong's heroic one.  The name, Nightblood, is even like that of a Returned God.  Makes me ask, was there ever a Returned named Nightblood.  Was he a symbol of vengence?  Makes sense that Vasher would want to hide that. All completely suposition.

I am finally admitting a grudging respect even like of Vivenna.  She is becoming more well rounded even if she hasn't got herself figured out completely.

Kel
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 08, 2007, 03:48:31 AM
I believe in one of the earlier chapters the background on Nightblood was mentioned, but not really given in much detail. I don't think Nightblood was originally created to do the kind of work that it now does, and it has chosen not to remember that it killed the woman that it wanted to go brag to about the "good thing" that he and Vasher had done. I know there is more, but cant' really speculate too much on that part of it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on February 08, 2007, 05:05:00 AM
Great chapter.  I don't know why, but I thought Vasher saying that one broken down door does about the same thing as another was hilarious.

What really struck me was was Vasher's reaction to Vivenna's mention of Clod.  It looks like Clod was someone important to him, and I would be willing be willing to bet that Jewels is a Drab because she used her breath to Awaken him.  Perhaps he was named 'Clod' as an insult because he was an enemy of Denth's, and this would make Jewel's reference to running away with Clod make some sense.

was it created by using a Returned's (god) breath, one with a dark presence unlike Lifesong's heroic one.  The name, Nightblood, is even like that of a Returned God.  Makes me ask, was there ever a Returned named Nightblood.

I think it's more likely that Vasher created Nigthblood–it was mentioned in one of the earlier chapters that he had Awakened metal before.  It would also add a level of irony to Nightblood's comments that it was made for killing.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 08, 2007, 06:45:13 AM
Interesting chapter.  Is the way that Awakening works a consciously different take on the Eddings Will/Word system?  It seemed similar at first (in application -- focus your will and then say the words -- if not underlying theory), but the sound factor -- which seems like it should maybe get more attention throughout the book -- changes things up.  My intuition was that something like "Hold Things" would take more Breath than "Hold That Branch" because the first requires more work.  But that seems to have nothing to do with it; in fact, with Awakening they have a system for perpetual motion (and thus energy).  A wheel Commanded to Turn would turn forever, a Lifeless horse Commanded to go back and forth between two points at certain times would do it to the dot every single day, etc.

It's purely my own preference and shouldn't get in the way of the core story, but I think it's a marvelous chance for imagination to flesh out in a purposeful way what a city like this would look like and how it would operate -- Hallendren right now feels like a typical fantasy/late-medieval city, relatively untouched by the influence of Breath.  Yet look at all the ways our world has changed in the few hundred years we've had electricity.  So do you want to emphasize the plight of the poor in the slum?  Have Vivenna see that most of the menial jobs in the city are done by Lifeless, since business owners wouldn't have to pay them.  Want to present the city as an orderly system?  Show that Lifeless are used to deliver the mail or provide public transportation at precise schedules.  Want to present the city as decaying and decadent?  Describe that those same Lifeless are starting to fall apart and the schedules falter, or have Awakened ceiling fans spinning endlessly in the houses of the rich, while poor Drabs suffer in the heat....

One thing Vasher's explanation didn't address is Drabs.  Is a Drab thus someone without BioChroma?  This may fall under the "we don't know everything" category, but why then cannot a Drab be Commanded?

Realizing that I read the version 1 edition of all the early chapters, has Vivenna's character pre-betrayal been changed at all in the later drafts?  She seems to see her earlier self a little differently than I remember her.  In this chapter she's going on about how sure of her beliefs she used to be, but my memory was that Denth started challenging her beliefs almost as soon as she arrived in the City, which is pretty much when we were introduced to her as a character.  Reading her take on herself in this chapter, I might suggest -- if you haven't already -- making her even more arrogant and sure of herself, less questioning, in the earlier chapters, delaying some of her inner doubts until a bit later.  Denth might challenge her beliefs a little less, encourage her contempt of Hallendren a little more (wouldn't that be more in his interest?).  That would allow us to see her transformation as more substantive now in these later chapters, and also better contrast her with Siri in those earlier chapters.

Edit (addition):

It bugs me how Vasher won't answer her questions though. I wish he would/could be more open... if even just a little about nightblood. We don't even have an idea of why he/(it?) would make her sick when she touched it. It seemed like it was a test or something from their first meeting... anybody have any guesses about him, because I don't really?

My take is that Nightblood is one of those "only ye who is of pure intent may draw me" type devices -- the evil you have in you, you have done to you.  But it may be something more specific.  Vasher's silence is one of those things where he really needs to have a good reason for it -- nevermind Nightblood, he still hasn't told Vivenna what his ultimate goals and plans are and who he is working for/with.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 08, 2007, 05:02:49 PM
But I think that is totally in keeping with his character. He is used to being alone, looked upon with fear, and being able to do as he pleases with no one to answer to, well excet maybe a higher power. I am not totally sure that Vasher is working for anyone other than himself, but wouldn't it be a wonderful twist if he was actually working for Vivenna's father? Trying to keep the Idrians in the slums from rising up against the Hallendrens sounds like something the king might be working towards. It would keep the war from being so imminent (sp?) and we all know he is very interested in that :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 08, 2007, 05:45:41 PM
Or maybe Denth is working for Vivenna's father, and Vasher is working for Blushweaver?

Nah.

Matt, it occurred to me also that life in Halladren could be pretty different than in an ordinary fantasy city. For example, it seems to me that an awakener chef could do some Serious Culinary Awesomeness by making meals prepare themselves (for example, by having all the grains in a bowl of rice line up in artistic patterns, or by having meat that turns itself over while it's inside the oven so that it cooks evenly.) And then there's the question of what fashionable clothing for rich people would look like, or more to the point, what it would do.

Logically,
Periodic Table of BioChromatic Entities
AliveDeadOrganicInorganicIncorporeal
HeightenedAwakenersGod King??Nightblood?Austre
SentientHumansReturned?Nightblood?Ghosts
MindlessPlants, animalsLifelessAwakened stuff??
DrainedDrabsOrdinary dead stuffOrdinary cloth, etc.Ordinary swords, etc.Nothing
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 08, 2007, 06:02:58 PM
What really struck me was was Vasher's reaction to Vivenna's mention of Clod.  It looks like Clod was someone important to him, and I would be willing be willing to bet that Jewels is a Drab because she used her breath to Awaken him. 

I think she actually yells at Viveena at one point that she gave up her breaths to the God King himself, and considers it an honor, and that's why she's a drab.  (I can't think of which chapter).

I don't think Vasher is currently a priest because of running with Denth and everyone, however I could see him as having been one (maybe to the Goddess that Lightsong loved so much before she died?), and then when Denth and everyone found out they became extreamly buddy-buddy with him to find out all they could.  When he found out about this, he dropped them like a ton of bricks... that's just an idea that came to me and I thought I'd throw out.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on February 08, 2007, 06:08:58 PM
I really can't see Vasher working with the king of Idris (can anyone remember his name?), partly because the king thinks that war is inevitable and can only be delayed.  Vasher seems like a loner, and I don't get the idea he has much contact with anyone as far north as Idris.  I don't know why, but I've always had the idea that he recently came from somewhere to the southwest of Hallandren.

Speaking of Vahser, how old is he?

firstrainbowrose,

Now I think about Jewels did say that, but we can't be sure she wasn't lying.

I absolutely cannot see Vasher being a priest.  Priests have to follow rules and respect deities and such, none of which Vasher seems capable of doing.

David,

I don't think that humans are BioCromatic entities, because they are able to give up their Breath and still live.  If humans are not BioCromatic, but are able to Command BioCroma, I wonder if Austre is the same.  Perhaps he is not BioCromatic or human himself, but is able to Command both Breath and a human soul to Return?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 08, 2007, 06:31:13 PM
But I think that is totally in keeping with his character. He is used to being alone, looked upon with fear, and being able to do as he pleases with no one to answer to, well excet maybe a higher power. I am not totally sure that Vasher is working for anyone other than himself, but wouldn't it be a wonderful twist if he was actually working for Vivenna's father? Trying to keep the Idrians in the slums from rising up against the Hallendrens sounds like something the king might be working towards. It would keep the war from being so imminent (sp?) and we all know he is very interested in that :)

I think if Vasher were working for Vivenna's father he wouldn't have pondered whether to kill her in the earlier chapters.  I think Denth working for the father is more likely (although the simpler story of for Blushweaver more likely still), in that as I mentioned before, the father has the most obvious reason to want war: reclaiming the country he might feel is rightfully his.  What reason does Blushweaver have to want war, given her exalted position already?  Unless there's some twist like it's her child that will be groomed as Susebron's successor?  (Cue dah-dah-DAH sound of ominous revelation.)  And/or maybe the royal blood would for some reason (are royals BioChromatic entities of yet another sort, given their funky hair color powers?) allow a union between a royal and a Returned to conceive where others would fail?  Several aspects and possibilities would then make (more) sense: everyone's certainty that Siri can conceive; Blushweaver's vague comments about the children of Returned; Blushweaver's dislike/jealousy of Siri; a possible alliance with Blushweaver and the Idris king.

dawncawley, I think I'm more sensitive than some to feeling like an author is delaying information as a device to increase tension or make the plot work rather than because the plot/characters require it.  Stories that many other people like, such as the fourth Harry Potter book, I find very lacking for that reason.  I'm not saying that's what is happening here, I'm just saying I will want there to be a good reason for Vasher's silence as well as the aspect we've discussed before, Vivenna's lack of questioning about his silence.  Obviously Brandon can do with my comments what he will.

MattD

P.S. I read Vasher's hesitation when Vivenna mentions Clod as indication that Vasher killed the person who Clod was, although it's also possible that it was someone Vasher knew (I just can't think of any candidates).  The former links back to the Clod-as-Arsteel theory, although there were some problems in the text that seemed to reject that.  Maybe it was just an issue of drafting that has been clarified in later drafts?  We'll just have to wait and see....

Edit:

P.P.S. DavidB, while you were thinking of the culinary arts I was thinking about all the cool ways Awakening could be used to assassinate someone (shows you how twisted I am).  Command their clothes to strangle when donned, command their food to kill them from the inside when eaten, etc.  Um, yeah, anyway I'm gonna go eat lunch now... (shudder).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 08, 2007, 06:51:42 PM
Dreamking, I think that if Vivenna had really done everything that Vasher has accused her of to rush the war, then perhaps it was within what his orders were to kill her if the need arose. The king has already proven that he could, and did, send at least one of his children to be sacrificed, to the best of his knowledge. Plus, Vivenna running off the way she did would have appeared to the king to have been a betrayal. Especially if his spies told him she was working to start the war faster. Just a thought, and not one I am totally sure about, but I thought it would be a great twist :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 08, 2007, 06:57:47 PM
This is the same king remember who couldn't bear to send Vivenna in the first place.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 08, 2007, 07:36:01 PM
Yeah, if Denth or Vasher are working for Vivenna's dad, then the part about using Vivenna to help forward their plans must be their own initiative, as Vivenna's dad would probably have commanded them to send her home so that he could give her a Stern Talking-To.

MasterBombadil - Humans are alive; humans have biochroma. I can't think of a sensible definition for "biochromatic entities" that excludes humans. (Actually, I thought that the snazzy thing about my table was that it includes all matter in the universe.)

Also -- Vasher says, "every living being is born with a certain BioChromatic Investiture.  This could also explain why Type Ones retain sentience". Maybe if you're born with biochroma, you're automatically sentient, and you don't need to keep the breath in order to stay alive. That means that in order to make Nightblood, someone just had to forge a sword out of previously-awakened steel. (It also means that if you were to take away all of Nightblood's breaths, it would still be alive.)

(So, you ask, what happens when Returned die? The same thing as when normal humans die, presumably.)

Horrifyingly, this implies that if someone were to cook using the methods I alluded to earlier, the result would be sentient food.

Also, I may be misremembering, but I think the command to awaken lifeless with just one breath is a closely guarded secret, so Jewels couldn't have awakened Clod herself. (Could you imagine if anyone could do that? People could -- sort of -- bring back their dear dead friends, relatives, loved ones, pet pigeons, whatever. Kids who got mad enough in the schoolyard and didn't understand enough about consequences would create lifelesses to beat on each other. Kids whose parents were rich enough to buy them a new breath when they used up the one they were born with would do it on a regular basis. I think if I wanted to take over Halladren, I'd try to find out how to awaken lifeless with one breath, publish the method to the general public, and just wait for the city to tear itself apart.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on February 09, 2007, 02:57:33 AM
It was made pretty clear in the early chapters that the king of Idris does not want war, but believes it is inevitable.  It was also very plain that he could not have wanted Vivenna dead.

David,

All BioCromatic entities we have encountered so cannot survive without Breath.  Awaken objects are no longer Awakened when their Breath is removed; Returned die when they give up theirs.  Humans are different because they can give up Breath and go largely unaffected.

What is your definition of a BioCromatic entity?  From reading your table, and your comment in your last post, it seems that you are trying to say that 'BioCromatic entity' describes all matter.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 09, 2007, 04:15:20 AM
I liked some of those theories, and am wondering how many times that happens...

One thing that's bugging me... if when you awaken something it drains all the color then why does everything turn gray?  Isn't that technically a color as well?  Couldn't you (if you knew how) awaken using an item that's already been turned gray because of awakening, or is it that when it turns "gray" it loses all possibility of magic pull?  Also, if you're wearing an all gray outfit, and it was naturally that way (wasn't dyed or anything) could you not use it to awaken?  Sorry, just something that struck me, and I was wondering about.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 09, 2007, 05:46:04 AM
Master Bombadil, actually what is stated in the early chapters is that Idris feels that if war with Hallendren happens it must happen in the Winter, when the snow will work to their advantage.  It is Summer when the story begins and thus assuming a similar calendar to our world they must be into Fall by now -- so there is reason to think that the Idris king might indeed want to hasten the coming of the war, if he is sure one is inevitable, to be sure that it does happen in Winter.

Now, if I were a betting man I would not bet that "the Idris king is behind it all," even though it's a theory I suggested.  A simpler theory is more likely, Occam's Razor and all that.  But I don't think it's impossible (and do think it would make for a good story -- in some ways the ultimate lesson for Vivenna) so I'm keeping my mind open.  Re-reading version 2 of chapter 2 just now, I agree the king does not want war, but what strikes me is his mix of religious fervor with "anything for my kingdom" martyrdom.  Plus his own general says, "With a little more time, I should be able to bring the Natiees nomads to our cause, not to mention the dissidents in Hallandren itself" (emphasis added).

firstRainbowRose, yes gray is a color but it is an achromatic color (along with white and black) -- it lacks any degree of saturation with a hue.  I'm guessing it is that saturation which is drained out by Awakening, and yeah, I'd bet that something so drained couldn't then be used again (I think Vivenna experienced this herself in the last chapter).

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Karen on February 09, 2007, 06:45:09 AM
Er, hi.  First time posting here, but I have to add my guesses.

First, I have no idea who is trying to start the war.  However, there's more than one minority group in the city.  One that has a lot of servants in the palace has already had one of their people make certain moves to interfere in the God king's marriage.  That same person also wasn't ready to deal with the God king being married.  Questions about rank and how Siri was to be treated would have meant nothing if war had started before the marriage - or because her father had chosen war rather than sending Vivenna.

Second, I'm wondering if Vasher isn't somehow the original Warbreaker. 

Third, I think I see how the breath has been passed on in the royal family.

The more complex a lifeless is, the more breaths went into his or her making.  Theoretically, with a nearly limitless supply of breaths, an awakener might be able to make a lifeless more like a returned.  The big question is how these breaths can be taken out, given the rules as I understand them. 

However, once that point is ignored, the rest begins to fall into place.  The time limit isn't on the king's life, it's on the life of the awakener who has to call back his breath before he dies.  I'm assuming he then passes it on to a successor who gives it to the new king - who, I assume, is murdered in his cradle so he can be awakened.

Actually, it might be better if the awakening could be done by several priests.  Perhaps the larger the number, the better.  That way, the deaths of a few priests before the breaths could be passed on would mean only a partial loss rather than a complete one.

In that case, the person pushing for war at this time is someone who understands that the king and the king's breaths are at their most vulnerable right now.  The big question is whether this is someone after the breaths or someone out to get rid of the king.  I'm guessing an enemy of both the countries we've seen.

Again, a third party seems the most likely to profit.  Siri's friends may not be any more trustworthy than Vivenna's.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on February 09, 2007, 03:45:31 PM
A 3rd group!?   ...wow.  That would be terrific, kind of like the monks from Elantris.

Some interesting things, I'd like to comment on more, but alas, work calls!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 09, 2007, 05:28:34 PM
Karen, welcome.  I had wondered to myself what happens to something Awakened when its Awakener dies, but hadn't connected it to the God King.  It's an interesting idea.  I don't know that "the more complex a lifeless is, the more breaths went into his or her making" is true, though -- we've learned that Lifeless can be Awoken relatively easily if you know how, since that's the secret on which rests Hallandren's power.

It seems there are both 3rd and 4th parties, if you will.  Bluefingers and the Pahn Kahl (sp?) people tried to prevent Siri from having a child, remember.  Tridees, the God King's priest, was the one pushing for it.  Which of them knows what?

Vasher does have that way of speaking that makes it seem like he was there during/after the Manywar, I agree.  Breaths do extend life, we're told.  Although his words could also just be scholarly arrogance.

Does anyone else remember how when Jewels first tells Denth that Vasher is in town, she says his name is "Tax" and that he's calling himself Vasher now as a joke?  The punchline should be interesting.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 09, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
I don't think that I was being very clear in my first post about this, so let me see if I can get it right this time.

Yes, the Idrian couldn't send Vivenna, he loved her too much. But when we love someone that much, isn't their betrayal of us that much more painful? Do we not react more harshly than we may have before? For this reason, and this reason mainly, I don't think that the King of Idris should be ruled out as a possibility for Vasher's employer.

We have Vivenna leaving home just after he had sent his youngest daughter to slaughter, in his mind it was inevitable, so we know that he would be hurt by this. He has a spy network in place, only one of which did we ever know for sure but he does have one, so they would have told him that she had hooked up with the forces that were rushing and helping the war effort along. To her father these would appear as betrayals, he thinks she is smarter than to allow herself to be used. I don't think it outside the realm of possibility that he would want to stop her any way that he could. No, I don't think that the original order would have been to kill her, but I don't think that it would have been taken out of the scope of what her captor could do if they felt it was the only way to stop her.

I hope that explains my point on that a bit more clearly.

The rest of the theories that have been discussed recently all seem very interesting. I especially like the one about having a third or fourth faction.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 10, 2007, 04:02:57 AM
The simplest way for Vasher (or Denth, for that matter) to be working for Vivenna's dad is if they simply didn't bother telling him that they knew where Vivenna was.

Quote
"No, no, never send interim reports," said Miles. "Only final ones. Interim reports tend to elicit orders. Which you must then either obey, or spend valuable time and energy evading, which you could be using to solve the problem."
(from Lois McMaster Bujold's Brothers in Arms

Matt, I don't think Occam's razor applies to fiction. More like the reverse,

Quote
Never ascribe to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice.

Okay, that's the reverse of Hanlon's razor, but whatever. Anything weird that happens is always part of an evil plot, and nobody ever dies unless they're murdered. Speaking of, if breath extends your lifespan and prevents you from getting sick, I wonder Who Killed Lemks?

...Obviously, the butler did it. (And that would be...uh...Scoot?)

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on February 10, 2007, 04:49:24 AM
I'd just always assumed Denth had killed Lemks, likely without Lemks knowledge.  Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 10, 2007, 10:14:04 AM
I kind of had that thought too.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 12, 2007, 04:38:56 AM
Likewise; Denth implied to Vivenna that he had something to do with Lemks's death by calling her attention to how unnatural it was.

I still don't buy the Idris King as Vasher's employer idea because I don't see how the King could interpret Vivenna's actions as betrayals.  Misguided, perhaps, but 1) she was trying to damage the enemy of Idris and 2) as I mentioned a few posts previous, the Idris King may very well want war sooner rather than later to be sure it happens in winter.  But we shall see soon enough!

DavidB, I guess I'm having trouble adequately explaining any existing theory solely according to malice, which is why I'm still non-committal.  Too many puzzle pieces still unknown.

One more minor comment on the last chapter...

Quote
   “Aren’t you an Idrian?” Vasher asked, drawing her attention as he settled down.
   “Last I checked,” she replied.

"Last I checked" felt a little too contemporary when I read it, compared with the speech in the rest of the story.  (Also possibly too glib for Vivenna, although I understand that we're supposed to be seeing her act less stuffy now.)

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Drerio on February 12, 2007, 05:28:07 AM
I can't quite seem to remember, but would it follow that Drabs would be sick more often and live a shorter lives than a normal person? 

Also, I was wondering if Breath might actually be a spark of divinity given to humans when the entered this world...a source of warmth for the time they were away from God in the next.  In physics, we talk about different types of energy.  Kinetic, potential, etc.  Are breaths perhaps used as a source of potential energy?  A miracle waiting to happen?  In this way, the soul of the human could be separate from Breaths, the Breath of Austere, a piece of Him, given to each individual in life when they left His side and entered this world for a time.  In this way, they would not feel completely separated from him while they were away.  Also, his angels, the Returned, could be his emissaries on Earth.  Outpocketings from His reality for a given purpose.  Perhaps acting as His hands where He has none. 

Also, I am wondering about the nature of Vivenna's hair, and how that plays in.  It seems that if, which he has breaths, can continue to turn her hair to a given color, she could have additional power.  Since Awakening requires color for breaths to work, can she just hold her hair, awaken something, then grow more with the color?  Or can she add color to hair already drained of color?  (Physiologically, the second scenario would be significantly more difficult.)  Also, what makes the royal line so special?  Is her original Breath, the one she was born with, different from what most people have?  If this were true, anyone who gained her current stash of breaths would be able to do the hair thing.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 12, 2007, 06:18:47 AM
Regarding Vivenna's hair, one notes that it didn't grow or change color during the couple of weeks when she was storing her breath in the shawl, but it changed color within ten minutes of her getting it back. Vivenna thinks that that's because she was on the streets for those two weeks, and was scared the whole time...still, it's suggestive.

This doesn't really address your point, but I dislike calling breath "potential energy". The term has a specific meaning which is different from what you're using it to mean, unless you're literally suggesting that breath can be converted in a definite ratio to heat and electricity, and someone with a lot of breath should weigh more than someone with none (in accordance with relativity*).

It would make sense for drabs to live shorter lives and be sick more often than regular people, but nothing about that has been mentioned in the story (as far as I remember). It seems like if that were true, then people would be more reluctant to give up their breaths than they seem to be in the story (ie. people wouldn't encourage their kids to give their breaths to the gods if they knew that that would make the kids get sick and live shorter lives). So maybe the added lifespan/immune system boost that you get with a single breath is small enough not to be noticeable and it takes a few hundred to have any real effect.

*They wouldn't weigh much more, of course. If we assume that one breath provides enough energy for one lifeless to live for about one human lifespan (I assumed 2000 food calories per day for 80 years), and the God King absorbs 2 extra breaths per day, then he would gain about 2 kilograms every 1000 years.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on February 14, 2007, 01:31:19 PM
I keep meaning to respond to some of the points of discussion here.  (As always, very useful.)  Perhaps I'll do that in a bit, but for now, I'll post the new chapter before I get distracted and forget.

This is Lightsong.  Remember, our last chapter form him was the short two paragraph one. 

Chapter forty-seven (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-047-3.0.doc)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on February 14, 2007, 07:38:42 PM
This is Lightsong.  Remember, our last chapter form him was the short two paragraph one. 

Rename EOUL to "Mr. How can we forget"?  It was so cruel...  I don't think any TV show ever had a cliffhanger quite like Lightsong did. =)


I love what the repetition of the word "perfect" does for Lightsong's character.  It definitely shows us that his mind set has changed, that he realizes what his "god-hood" has cost.  I love the character even more.  "Die.  Die so we can keep believing."  - That sent a shiver threw me, and I think that one thought sets in motion the revealing (or soon to be) of what the priests are really up to, how the whole system works.   A clue to Lightsong's past!  Nice touch. 

And it ends with a man who doesn't want to be a hero taking up the burdens of responsibility - defiantly how Lightsong should have went.  However, I'm kind of sad that it looks like it will be in such a bloodthirsty way.  I kind of liked the detective story (which, what happened to that?).  I thought that had more character building potential then the command of the zombies.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 15, 2007, 02:24:57 AM
This is such a good chapter. I like that he is doing something now, that maybe he might be more than just the comic relief. I have always felt that he was important, but I like to see it in writing too :)

Now, about this mysterious female.... I have a theory, but it is only half baked, so I don't know how accurate it would be. I have feeling that if she isn't, or wasn't rather, his wife or lover, perhaps she is a family member of some kind. My natural inclination would be towards a sister, I wouldn't know for sure, and wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if it tied to Jewels somehow? Sorry, that bit just came to me as I was typing, if I am rambling I apologize.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 15, 2007, 05:39:21 AM
Well, I think the genral opinion is that he's related to one of our other groups somehow... so your Jewels comment doesn't sound as crazy as would be thought.  Maybe his mystry girl is the one that Vasher killed, and Nightblood was trying to brag to but refused to hear that she had been killed?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 19, 2007, 09:57:08 AM
That is an interesting thought, but I am not sure about the timing, about any of it actually :) But that is the fun part of reading this online and learning the timing.

Is it just me, or has this discussion kind of died down a bit more between chapters than it had previously? Or maybe it is just this chapter that seems to be slow discussion wise. I haven't really been able to keep up to much with my school schedule keeping me busy.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 20, 2007, 02:08:35 AM
They have slowed down.  I think we all realize that anything we could talk about will hopefully be revealed soon.  Or maybe there isn't anything to chew on yet.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 20, 2007, 04:43:52 AM
Here's a question: can Breath be used in the dark?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on February 20, 2007, 07:30:41 AM
I just started and I'm pleasantly surprised to find another pretty original magic system (It seems a little too voodoo oriented to be fully original)

The description of magic is quite interesting, but the BioChromatic sounds too high tech for the world I'm expecting robots or cloning tanks at the least when I hear BioChromatic. 
To ease me into the world why not Chromancy, ChromaticArts, or Chromatology?

One more nitpick
Quote
The man hung from the ceiling, naked and chained
I thought that he was hung when I first read this, perhaps "Chains hung the naked prisoner to the ceiling" or something of the like -- emphasizing not hanging, but chains.

By the way the earlier thread about apostrophes opened my eyes to how others could find them annoying -- I find that they fill the gap that a schwa cannot easily fill.  (the upsidedown e saying -- I don't make much sound.)

Thank you Euol for giving us the chance to make our comments.

Sorry if I missed a post in the 29 pages hence.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 20, 2007, 07:40:17 AM
I would think so.  I mean, nothing we've seen so far has implied that it would be stopped becauses there isn't light.  Heck, I bet you could put breaths into a candle and make it almost like a lightbulb.  *thinks*  A glowing lifeless... that would be cool!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 20, 2007, 02:20:07 PM
If Breath needs to extract color/chroma (which is reflected/refracted light) from the surrounding environment to work, then if there is no light it might not be usable.  And it might be more difficult to use if there was minimal light.  I guess the question is whether the graying of surrounding material is a matter of chemistry or physics.

I think that "biochroma" is the same sort of word as "bioluminescence" -- specifically involving life ("bio-"), in this case the "colors of life."  There's also actually a difference in meaning between "hanged" (executed) and "hung" (suspended from).

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on February 20, 2007, 05:49:09 PM
If Breath needs to extract color/chroma (which is reflected/refracted light) from the surrounding environment to work, then if there is no light it might not be usable.  And it might be more difficult to use if there was minimal light.  I guess the question is whether the graying of surrounding material is a matter of chemistry or physics.

I think that "biochroma" is the same sort of word as "bioluminescence" -- specifically involving life ("bio-"), in this case the "colors of life."  There's also actually a difference in meaning between "hanged" (executed) and "hung" (suspended from).

MattD
I agree, but when reading the draft -- those things made me think of certain elements that I did not think that Brandon wanted his audience to think of.  Therefore, I thought I might point it out.
I figured it out within a few paragraphs or sentences, but it didn't flow like Elantris and Mistborn and I fear that a new reader might get bogged down with those points.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on February 20, 2007, 05:58:17 PM
Later, after Siri had traveled even further away.  Yet, Vivenna rose.  She was obedient; it was the way she had been trained.  That was one of the things that had always separated her from Siri

This line also confused me for a moment. 

I think that maybe it should be
Latar, after Siri had traveled even furhter away.
Yet, etc.,
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on February 20, 2007, 07:09:58 PM
Another line which gave me pause
Bluefingers the Anal
Wouldn't that be derived from Anal-retentative, a principle from freud.  Which means that
a) they have the same messed up psychology
b) that level of technology is in 1900's level tech (for understanding psychology)
and
c) the slang developed the same.

Given the culture I would have thought that a color would be more apt.  Bluefingers the Grey or something.  The science is obviously heavily influenced by Biochromatics and therefore the terms would parallel.

I just decided to edit my posts “That’s the thing, Spook,”   should be Scoot.

If there are multiple colored inks for each letter why is he bluefingers? wouldn't his fingers be smudged with multiple colors?
Or am I not understanding something?

It will only get worse, she thought as the doctor doing his examination.  Susebron, the God King.   I don't get what Siri is saying here.

Siri paused.  How could he tell. . . . 
   And then she saw it.  She had to look very closely, but the yellow on the floor around the surgeon looked a tad brighter than that more distance
  How could he tell . . ? maybe -- but an elipsis question is hard to punctuate -- I am not sure it needs an elipsis it could be distracting
More distant?

The capitol G on god bothers me -- capitol G means a monotheistic God -- as in that's His name.   A god is one of many -- yet the word god is capitolized when it's clear that the god in quesiton is one of many.

Beside them were a minstrels that Lightsong had called for, yet hadn’t yet asked to   was a minstral? were minstrals?

Politics, my dear,” he said with a sigh.  “You know how I loath them   this usage is loathe I am loath to tell you that though.  I just loathe this post.  

“They were taken to quarters outside the Court of Gods, Vessel.   Didn't the priests ask them to go home?  It might have been better to say "reluctantly given quarters"

It might be the transferral to word and spell check but the first time I saw Denth I misread it as Death -- quite shocking actually.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 20, 2007, 07:21:58 PM
I see what you're thought is dreamking, but then that goes into the whole "if a tree fell in the middle of the forest without anyone around to hear it, would it still make sound?" type thing.  I think that the colors do exsist in the dark, but, taking into consideration what you said, it may be a bit harder to use them.  That also asks, could white be used? It is after all the absance of all color.  Or even could black be used?  Those are always the questionable colors becauses they're their own little worlds.

Also, I know things fade to gray when all the color is used, but could you use something that was gray to begin with?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 12:29:15 AM
Vadia--

Speaking of anal... ;)

I think the convention is that the Halladrens don't speak English (that would be an even bigger coincidence than them reinventing Freud), so Brandon has helpfully translated their speech and their slang into something that would make sense to his audience, all at no extra charge.

Rose; Matt--

I came up with a thought experiment that could, er, shed a little light on this (admittedly picayune) problem.

Suppose you took a piece of gray or white paper into a light-proof room, illuminated only with colored light (say, a red laser diode). Then, the paper would appear, in our example, red. What would happen if you tried to use it for awakening?

If you could use the paper for awakening, but it stayed red, then there's no draining of color, and you just broke the magic system.

If you could use the paper for awakening, and it turned gray, then the "drained" paper must be somehow changing the light that hits it into white light. I think this is what Matt meant by the draining being a "matter of physics".
- In this case, the color of the paper depends on the color of light that was hitting it initially, so you wouldn't be able to use it for awakening in the dark.
- Also, white and gray objects could be used for awakening (as you just did with the gray paper), but only once.
- You could tell if something had been used for awakening before by shining a colored light on it. If the reflected light came back white or gray, then you'd know the object had been used for awakening. Otherwise, it's just an ordinary white or gray object.

If you couldn't use the paper for awakening, then the magic must somehow "know" the paper is white or gray, even though it looks red. So when things turn gray, it must represent a change in the thing, not just the light that comes off of it. I think that's what Matt meant by a "matter of chemistry".
- In this case, you could do awakening in the dark.
- But you couldn't do awakening with a white or gray object, since there'd be no difference between an ordinary white or gray object and a drained object.

So, from this thought experiment, we can see that EITHER you can do awakening in the dark, and awakening is a matter of chemistry, and gray objects can't be used; OR you can't do awakening in the dark, and awakening is a matter of physics, and gray objects can be used. All from column A, or all from column B; no combinations. (OR, awakening is a matter of (soft-core) magic, and not comprehensible under any set of rules, but I think Brandon's allergic to that.)

I'm leaning towards awakening being a matter of chemistry, because it makes more sense that way that vibrant colors would be more effective. (The other option has objects undergoing a huge qualitative change when they're used for draining, where light actually physically changes when it comes in contact with the object. All objects would undergo this change equally, regardless of how vibrant they previously were.)

Of course, it goes without saying that a physical or chemical mechanism that would explain the color changes would have to be so complicated that it's not worth trying to figure it out.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 21, 2007, 12:50:55 AM
Your explanation of the piece of paper does make sense, and makes me want to ask: Could you re-use something that had been used?  For an example, using the scarfs that Vivenna used recently, what if Vasher took one of them to a dyer and had them dye it a bright green or blue?  Could it be re-used?  In your argument it couldn't because it's physical make-up had changed (maybe it's kind of like a force of power that flows through colors, and is what's drained when you use breaths), but if it's just the color that prompts the magic then it would.  Or maybe it wouldn't even dye...

I also wonder whether a certain color is better for certain commands (red for something that to do with blood or love, purple for a bruise of the same color, etc).  Also, if you were to cut yourself and bleed onto a piece of paper or a cloth or something, could you then use the red from your blood to Awaken?  (Sorry about the random questions, my brain is spewing them out and I just wanted other thoughts)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 01:32:33 AM
Could you re-use something that had been used?  For an example, using the scarfs that Vivenna used recently, what if Vasher took one of them to a dyer and had them dye it a bright green or blue?  Could it be re-used?

Assuming my argument is correct, the answer would have to be:

Objects can be reused if awakening is a matter of chemistry (and therefore awakening works in the dark, and gray objects can't be used) because in this case, you can't tell an ordinary gray object from a drained object (and you could certainly dye an ordinary gray object and use it -- wool, for example, all starts out gray, assuming Halladren sheep are anything like ours).

But if awakening is a matter of physics (and therefore awakening doesn't work in the dark, and gray objects can be used), then once an object is drained it can't be reused. In fact, dying a drained object shouldn't have any effect in this case -- it would stay gray even if it's soaked in colored dye (just as it turned gray in colored light in my thought experiment).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 01:54:44 AM
It just occurred to me that awakening could also be a matter of psychology -- a drained object would reflect the same colors of light as a regular one, but would emit some kinda magic ray that would make everyone looking at it think it's gray. For the purposes of this discussion, this is indistinguishable from awakening as a matter of physics (doesn't work in the dark, can use gray objects, can't dye or reuse objects, blah blah blah), though of course you could easily design an experiment to tell whether drained objects were changing the light ("physics"), or just messing with your head ("psychology").

Practically, though, the only application of this (indeed, the only application of this entire discussion, most likely) would be to give Vasher or someone like him something to babble about  when Brandon needs him to wax technical.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 21, 2007, 02:02:39 AM
David, yes, that's exactly what I meant with the distinction between chemistry and physics: either something is altering the energy state of the thing's atoms at an extremely low-level, or something is altering the chemical composition of the dye/pigment/coloring agent at a more macro-level.

Of course all this assumes we're in a universe where the same laws and processes are in place.  I don't think there is conservation of energy when Awakening and Commanding, however, so that may not be a valid assumption.

Here's another question (see dawncawley, this is what you get when you complain things are slow):

Can a dead Returned God be made into a Lifeless?

(It'd be sacrilegious I'm sure to a Hallandren, but conceptually I don't see why not...)

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 03:06:03 AM
Can a dead Returned God be made into a Lifeless?

Obviously, this isn't answered in the story (yet), but I doubt it.

Can a dead Returned God be made into a Lifeless (with one breath)?
Can a dead Lifeless be made into a Returned God (with the death of another God)?
Can a dead Returned God be resurrected into a live Returned God (with the death of another God)?
Can a dead Lifeless be made into a live Lifeless (with one breath)?

It seems to me that all four of these questions are related, so they probably ought to all have the same answer. And I'm pretty sure the answer to the last question is "no", because I seem to recall someone in the story talking about Lifeless getting discarded when they're worn out. (If you could resurrect them, then good dead Lifeless would just get infused with a new breath instead.) So my guess is that all the rest of the questions are "no"s as well.

Though the third question has some interesting story possibilities, if it could be done against the live God's will (which is sort of implied by Susebron's ancestors's deaths). One thing's for sure -- a dead Returned God resurrected as a Lifeless wouldn't be able to fool anyone into thinking it was a God, because without the extra breaths, it wouldn't look like a God anymore.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 21, 2007, 04:41:58 AM
I don't see why a Returned wouldn't be able to be made into a lifeless unless the body vanishes after they die (which wouldn't make much sense at all.)  But I don't think any of those could be done with one breath.  Heck, I don't think anything we've seen happen so far has taken only 1 breath.  Everything takes a lot more than that.  As far the rest, I think you're right with the nos.

Now my next question is:  Can breaths be used to control people?  (Mind control type things, or illusions)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 04:51:48 AM
It takes just one breath to make a lifeless. That's sort of a major plot point.

Quote
Can breaths be used to control people?

Well, "Give me all your money or else I'll Awaken your shirt and make it choke you to death" seems like it'd be pretty effective.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 21, 2007, 05:19:05 AM
Oh... I thought it just took less breaths then before.  *blush*

And while that is a very convincing point, I meant more of mind control type things.  Put breaths into a person's body, and give them a command.  (Kiss them, breath in and command "Love me" or something)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 04:13:09 PM
I don't think there is conservation of energy when Awakening and Commanding, however....

But wouldn't it be fun if there was?

Warbreaker physics test: Let's suppose that the energy Awakened objects use to move comes from breath. Then, (in order to estimate how much energy is in each breath), let's suppose that when a Lifeless wears out (say, after 80 years at most) it's because its one breath has run out of energy. With these assumptions, how many breaths would you have to put into the head of a pin (with a diameter of 1 mm) in order to make a black hole?

(My answer: 1.2*10^29. If every star in the known universe (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/) had a planet with the population of Earth, then there might be just enough breath in the universe for this. --EDIT: Whoops, no, there'd be enough to do this a thousand times over. Logically, 1 sextillion ought to be 1000^6, but no, it's 1000^7. Go figure.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on February 21, 2007, 06:40:34 PM
Vadia--

Speaking of anal... ;)

I think the convention is that the Halladrens don't speak English (that would be an even bigger coincidence than them reinventing Freud), so Brandon has helpfully translated their speech and their slang into something that would make sense to his audience, all at no extra charge.



It's possible, just thought that perhaps Brandon would have liked my comments. . . or not whatever.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 21, 2007, 07:00:27 PM
I actually agree, vadia: "anal" felt a little wrong to me, too.  Mainly I think because I couldn't see someone so freely admitting that they were called "the Anal."  To use David's language, it felt like a mistranslation.

I also don't remember him acting particularly anal at any point in the book...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 07:29:47 PM
It's possible, just thought that perhaps Brandon would have liked my comments. . . or not whatever.

Er...sorry?

But I was disagreeing with you, not deleting your post or anything, so Brandon will still read your comments, and decide for himself whether he "likes" them or not.

I actually agree, vadia: "anal" felt a little wrong to me, too.  Mainly I think because I couldn't see someone so freely admitting that they were called "the Anal."

He might, if he were proud of being a nitpickity perfectionist....

But you're right, I don't remember him being particularly anal during the rest of the book either.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on February 21, 2007, 08:17:10 PM
Ha!  Now those were some interesting questions.  As I finish fleshing out this magic system, I'm going to owe a lot to you guys for your in-depth looks at what it can and can't do.

This next chapter is short, I'm afraid.  I'll make it up to you next week, since the Vivenna chapter that follows is about four times its length.  After this, things do pick up for a while.  Sorry to give you two weeks of character/motivation establishing chapters.  Since they're short, they would have passed quickly in the book, but you have to wait on them for weeks. 


Chapter forty-eight (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-048-3.0.doc)


Edit--by the way, vadia, your clarity suggestions are well appreciated. I actually already changed anal in a rewrite I did, actually, but I missed most of the others.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 21, 2007, 08:56:07 PM
My quick response to this chapter:

The first five paragraphs or so seemed a bit cloying, especially the line "A God of color and beauty, his body as perfectly sculpted a statue." It may be literally true in this case, but it sounds awfully...cliche-romance-novel. And, of course, there's the obvious grammatical error.

When Siri says, "I’ll sit with Lightsong, and plead for his help," it should be made clear whether she means that she's going to meet him today, or that she's not going to do anything until the general meeting (which would be kind of stupid, considering that if Lightsong doesn't cooperate with her at the general meeting, it'd be a little late to come up with a backup plan.)

That meeting will decided wither or not we march on Idris contains another obvious grammatical error.

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be much to say about this chapter...it does its job without being too flashy, so I guess that's good.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 22, 2007, 03:47:51 AM
I agree that it seems kind of romance novel at the start of the chapter, but I don't think you can have romance in a book without some of it sounding that way. I think it did really well without being nasty. Sorry, what I mean is, it seemed very much like a young lady in love with her first young man. I thought it sounded very "first lovish" which seemed true to Siri's character to me.

I like that Seb seems to be gaining a bit of a backbone, and looking to take charge of his kingdom. I see some problems arising, such as the priests and other Returned, but I think it will make for fantastic reading.

I agree that the way Siri said she would sit with Lightsong should be more clear, as DavidB mentioned.

 I know you promised more meat in next week's chapter, but I wasn't disappointed with this one. I know it was kind of short, but I thought it was good.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on February 23, 2007, 02:58:16 AM
I really enjoyed this chapter. I'm very glad that seb is acting like a king. That's good. I'm happy. I didn't think it was too romance novelish... although I've never read a romance novel. I would have to say that waking up like that is usually a time when I have very corny thoughts... so I would expect her to be the same way.

My only annoyance is actually in this thread... we don't need to pick out gramatical errors... there are people who will be paid to do that before the book is printed. (Sorry that's been bugging me).

YAY for Warbreaker!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 23, 2007, 08:50:25 AM
I liked the new chapter as well.  Personally, I liked the bit of cheesy romance because it's a break from the thoughts and plots for a little bit, which will be quite refreshing by this point when you're reading it from cover to cover and it's about 2 in the morning.  (Which is what I would be at.)  And it's enough that I can't wait to see more... but as long as it's early Wednesday!  *peace*
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 23, 2007, 02:48:17 PM
... we don't need to pick out gramatical errors... there are people who will be paid to do that before the book is printed.

You're absolutely right. I apologize. I'll try to keep better control of my inner psychotic pedantic proofreader in the future.

I agree that it seems kind of romance novel at the start of the chapter, but I don't think you can have romance in a book without some of it sounding that way.

When I said that that one line sounded "cliche-romance-novel", I meant for the emphasis to be on cliche, not romance novel. As in, how many zillions of stories have described the male hero as "A God of color and beauty, his body as perfectly sculpted a statue," or some slight variation? (Probably about as many as have "characterized" the female hero by having her contemplate her "long, slender hands" and "flowing hair" in a mirror.) Except that, unlike in all of those cases, Susebron is literally a god whose powers manipulate color and beauty. So this line subverts that cliche. I can't decide whether I like it or not.

There are, come to think of it, plenty of other common phrases that Siri could use literally about Susebron. He's radiant. He brightens her day. She sees things differently when she's with him. He's brilliant. He's vibrant. When he smiles, his whole face lights up. He sparkles in social situations. Et cetera.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Drerio on February 24, 2007, 12:23:54 AM
In response to firstrainbowrose (Feb 20), I think the question of what the actual source of power is for breath should be examined when fleshing out the magic system.  FRR mentions that black might be used as a color source since it is the combination of all colors, and in the case of dyes, this is true.  However, when thinking of light, black is actually the absence of color, with white being a combination of all colors.  Color as we perceive it in daylight is merely the reflection of specific wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation off of a surface, while those which we do not see are absorbed.  Therefore, when thinking of green plants, the leaves actually have pigments specifically designed to absorb other wavelengths to convert them into useable energy.  So, what is it exactly that is drained from that surface that is required for this magic system?  Is it the dye itself?  Alternatively, is there something about the reflected energy (light) coming off of the surface which is special, in which case a whiter fabric would be of more use.  If the later is true, it would certainly seem that bright blue or purple fabrics might be more powerful per square inch than a red fabric.  This might be true since red has a longer wavelength (and less energy) than purple per photon.

Perhaps this is too much detail...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 24, 2007, 12:35:38 AM
More questions!

If your potted plant dies, and you awaken it (which should be possible, since stuff like rope and cloth is just dead plants, really),

If a pregnant woman dies (but the fetus is still alive), and she is turned into a Lifeless, can she still carry the baby to term?

Are Lifeless capable of, er, reproduction? Say an awakener's son and daughter-in-law died, and she really wanted grandchildren.... (Of course, there are other, ickier possibilities, but then, there's probably a certain segment of the Halladren population who would be into that, even if, or perhaps especially if, Lifeless aren't, um, fertile.)

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 24, 2007, 01:12:28 AM
Aren't most Lifeless filled with ichor-alcohol?  Ich!

But yes, I can totally imagine there'd be a large black market for Lifeless made from attractive people who died young.

As far as I can tell (and despite Vasher's explanation), Breath seems to be, conceptually, an animating force rather than a lifeforce.  Awakened things don't continue the processes that sustained them in life: they don't breathe, have no heartbeat, etc.  (Right?)  So I think the answers to most of your questions would be no, but again with the caveat that this is a fantastic world so I don't necessarily expect it to conform to the laws of our universe...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on February 25, 2007, 06:02:22 PM

As far as I can tell (and despite Vasher's explanation), Breath seems to be, conceptually, an animating force rather than a lifeforce

Unless you are wrong -- for the Returned it does seem to be a life-force and not an animating force.  (maybe they should have an ichor alcohol transfusion.  du!)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 25, 2007, 06:13:32 PM

As far as I can tell (and despite Vasher's explanation), Breath seems to be, conceptually, an animating force rather than a lifeforce.

Unless you are wrong -- for the Returned it does seem to be a life-force and not an animating force.  (maybe they should have an ichor alcohol transfusion.  du!)

It's certainly possible that I'm wrong.  But the Returned don't respire, do they, or undergo the other processes of life?  They are sustained by magic, basically sentience plus animation.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on February 25, 2007, 08:07:30 PM
I have finally crawled back onto the edge of the Earth! 

In regards to how color is used in Awakening:

We know that black can be used to Awaken (because Vasher has used it), that black is the absence of light and the presence of pigment; that when color is 'drained' from an object is becomes gray, and that gray is the presence of light and in Hallandren (I think) the absence of pigment.  So I think that Awakening drains pigment, not reflected light, and could be used in the dark.

On lifeless:

While a Lifeless doesn't need to breathe, they might be able to breath on command.  Also, while I'm sure a dead plant could be awakened, I would like to know whether it could be made into a Lifeless.

And the last two chapters:

I liked the scene where Lightsong took over the Lifeless.  It was such a departure from his usual character that it really underscored the way he was taking responsibility.

Is the thing about the God King being able to break lifeless quickly true, or propaganda?

As for the 'romance' scene, I got a laugh out of using cliches literally.  If its an unconventionally used cliche, does it still count as a cliche?

It sounded to me like Siri was going to wait until the big meeting and talk to Lightsong then.  But some clarification would be good, and, if she is waiting, why?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on February 26, 2007, 08:32:21 PM
I love the ongoing discussions of the nature of Awakening.  Most of the time, I would fall right in and begin dissecting every little nuance and introducing my own hypotheticals.

However, there is something that bothers me about the whole thing.  And I want to say that it goes back to the naming of the magic system- "BioChroma."  It's scientific name implies a scientific nature that we all want to immediately get into and apply to real world physics.  There is definitely nothing wrong with that.  In fact, if this were Mistborn, I'd be all over it.  But within this story, it just doesn't fit.  Vasher's chapter teaching Vivena was as cliched as any other magic system being explained by "the-teacher-telling-the-new-student" method.  Technical terms are thrown out there like new toys from Sony given to a 3 year old.  All flashing lights and noise - but in the end it's just another thing to slobber on.

Why I think it doesn't work is the way Brandon writes about it:  what and how it deals with colors - its just too poetic.  This system is so unique, elegant, and beautiful, that the same old treatment of the "rules" just won't work.  I've read Brandon's article on how magic systems should have rules (or at least the harder systems).  This system can have rules, but the technical terms and treatment by Vasher just don't mesh with how the magic is delivered.  I keep thinking of those art commercials that were on TV awhile back.  Without art, the children that would come home would be boring and dull.

For example, what about a daisy?  Just a simple beautiful flower we can all picture one (I hope).  But what if it was constantly referred to as Bellis perennis - its scientific name?
Just for a moment, stop thinking about the colors as chemical (pigments) or physical (refracted light) and instead think just of the colors.  For example, what if we had a cup of blue?  It would be like touching music (from the Rhapsody series).

Breaths, as written, are some kind of Emotional Investment of Life.  Whatever "Life" is, it takes the form of  color.  It likes to fill containers made for life (things have to be humanoid, for example). 

Constantly, Brandon repeats that the colors were not brighter, just more rich.  Like turning up the saturation on your TV.  But there is not physically more of something - only people with enough Breath are able to see the changes.  He also compares the seeing of colors as an art style.  When describing the palaces of the gods, and more importantly - the Artisan's Script.  I think this is our biggest clue to the nature of this magic system. 

The only physical change is the greying.  Where does the color go?  That is the question driving the science part of the debate.  But what if Awakening is an art form?  What if the mind sees the color shift as a measurement of beauty?  What if, when forcing Breath into an item, the inherent magic of that item is suppressed?  Not removed, or taken, but hidden?  Things closest to Life are easier to Awaken, i.e., they take less breaths.  "Filling a container" as Vasher says may not be the right analogy.

So, a red awakened shirt appears grey because its own innate power (minuscule, most likely) is suppressed.  But it can move.  There is magic, another beings emotional life power, animating it.  This power is strong enough to override the item's basic designed function (which may explain shapes). 

That's my take on it.


What we Know for Sure
Two things are needed to Awaken: 1) Breath, and 2) Intent.  It seems a given that 1 breath (your starter kit) is not enough to do much.  It seems plausible that you could store it, as Vivena did, and become a "Drab."  So, collecting Breath from others is important - an Awakener needs more emotion/life/whatever, just to do cool magic tricks.  The second thing, Intent, leads to Commands.  Its not just enough to know a command, but you have to form the intent in your mind.  Vivena's first awakening proves that the knowledge of Commands is not needed (just easier).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on February 27, 2007, 02:07:16 PM
A couple of comments, Tjaeden:

1) Sound/speech seems to be required to Awaken, along with Breath and intent.

2) It's not the thing that is Awakened that is turned gray, it's surrounding material that the Awakener is  "grounded" to.

3) I largely agree with your comments on the magic.  I don't think it's a bad thing that there are both scientific and religious takes on Awakening, if that's part of the story that Brandon wants to tell; or both pragmatic and artistic depictions.  But I feel right now like the magic system is spread a little thin: there are a lot of good ideas but we don't get a large enough dose of any of them from any of the characters.  (For example, if Vasher's perspective is the academic one, shouldn't the style and content of his inner thoughts in past chapters be more in keeping with his highly academic exposition in the last V&V chapter?)  I do think that part of the reason that people have so many questions is as you say that the scientific language encourages it; another part though is that there are so many core aspects of the magic that we don't understand, in terms of how it works and what it can do.  And because the story is essentially a mystery, we're all trying to figure it out.

New question (getting away from the science a bit): will the names of the Returned Gods be significant to the story?  "Blushweaver" of course seems compelled to try to live up to her name -- and the idea of a weaver suggests a certain scheming nature.  "Allmother" suggests several possibilities, but in some ways is most interesting because of the notable absence of mothers in Brandon's stories (has anyone else noticed this -- Sarene, Raoden, Siri and Vivenna all have ruling fathers but no mothers?).  "Lightsong" is most interesting of all though given that the two parts of his name are the two things -- light and sound -- that may be most integral to Awakening.  (I know the light part is debatable, but the phrase "iridescent tones" does suggest the importance of light.)

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on February 28, 2007, 06:51:16 PM
Meh, I've decided I don't like my e-mail.  It's not telling me when there are new posts *glares at it*

In regards to the plant questions, I think you could awaken a plant, command it to grow seeds, but if you planted them nothing would grow.  I don't think if a pregant woman were to be turned into a lifeless the child would end up being killed by the process.  (All a lifeless' blood is taken out after all).

Another question about awakening objects and color.... could you command something to have color, or change color?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on February 28, 2007, 07:40:42 PM
I think the commands / awakening are only for "kinetic" actions.  All example we have read show "things" that are commanded with breaths to perform physical movement.  Lifeless may get more complicated, but only because the human body is the most complex moving organism.

You couldn't Command a Lifeless to write poetry - but you could Command one to make writing motions.  Maybe even copy things.  You couldn't Command a plant to bear seeds, but you could Command one to drop/disperse them.

Regarding my earlier posts, I came up with something wonderfully elegant and simple today.  Check it out.

Magic - as written in a story - is either:

1. an Art form described as a science.  This is how 90% of fantasy describes magic.
2. a Science described as an art form.  This is what I think Brandon has done in Warbreaker. 

Trying to interchange the two within a story will lead to confusion.  Not officially deciding on one or the other is about the same.  Characters within a story debating the two I think would be okay.

If this was applied to Vasher's chapter where he tries to teach Viv, we have #2 being presented as #1.

Again, this goes to Brandon's literary intent and to what he is trying to create within his world.  I think that his eloquent writing so far on Breaths leads to #2, even though he prefers #1 (as evident by his article on magic rules).  He can do either - its his world.  The poet in me aches for something beautiful, and the Iridescent Tones comes as close to magic as true Art as I have ever read.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on February 28, 2007, 09:48:55 PM
You guys are awesome.  That is all.  One response:  I AM thinking of changing BioChroma because my agent and editor both agree with you guys--they like that Vasher uses technical terms when we get to the right chapter for him to do so. 

So, let me know which of you would like it changed, and feel free to throw out suggestions.  My thought right now is to simply call it Iridescent Breath, and in places where I've used BioChroma use the word Iridescence (capitalized) instead.  "He didn't have much Iridescence."  or "He gave away his Iridescent Breath."

Chapter forty-nine (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-049-3.0.doc)

A longer chapter, finally, as promised.  You could say that from here on, the pace picks up a little bit....
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on February 28, 2007, 11:38:55 PM
Nice chapter!

Here's some random notes I scribbled down while reading it:

The priest’s name changes from Bebed to Fafen.

At one point, Vasher is referred to as “she”.

This doesn’t make sense to me:
Quote
She grimaced, then did as told, putting her Breath into her shirt with a basic, and non-active, Command.  It was actually the same as giving a half-spoken Command, or one mumbled, actually.  Those would draw out the Breath, but leave it unable to act.
Do you mean that Vivenna gave the shirt a command like “hold things,” but mumbled it so it wouldn’t work? Or that she gave the shirt a normal command, but that if she had mumbled “hold things” it would have had the same effect? Why aren’t we told which command she used? Why doesn’t she use “my breath to yours”, like she did with the shawl in the slums?

Immediately after that:
We’re on the way to confront a bunch of dangerous thieves, and have just seen Vasher reveal his Danger Suit. This seems an odd time to be contemplating the beauty of the stars. So, the pacing of this section feels a bit off. Also, city lights (at least in any city I’ve ever been to) don’t look like pretty stars unless you’re fairly high up, or far away – like on a rooftop or hill or something. Maybe this passage would work better somewhere else?

This is awkward:
Quote
“Two guards,” Vasher said.  “Both silenced.”
“Will they work for answering our questions?”
He shook a silhouetted head.
“Silenced” sounds like a euphemism for “killed” – or a spell in Final Fantasy – so maybe Vasher should just say “knocked unconscious” to explain how Vivenna knows they’re not dead. The phrase Vivenna uses, “work for answering”, sounds odd; something like “Will they be able to tell us what Denth wanted from Bebed’s carriage?” might sound more natural (and this even contains a mini plot recap). Finally, “silhouetted” is a funny adjective.

Quote
And, the way he spoke before--like a scholar--indicates he’s studied Awakening very seriously.
Thank you, Princess Obvious.

Quote
The tassels wrapped like too-limber fingers around the man’s head, latching on like a squid’s tentacles.
That’s a nice description, but not one I’d expect Vivenna to come up with (this is from one of her viewpoint sections), since it was emphasized earlier that the Idrians don’t have seafood, so presumably she’s never seen a live squid.

Quote
“Colorless monsters,” he whispered.
I thought the Halladrens attached no stigma to being a drab? Of course, Vasher probably isn’t Halladren….
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on March 01, 2007, 12:06:33 AM
Quote
He was rough.  He was brutal.  He had a terrible temper.  But, he was a good man.  And, walking beside him, she felt safe for the first time in weeks.
She felt safe -- for about five seconds, until she figured out that Vasher could be using his newly-revealed mind control powers to make her feel that way.

Obviously, Vasher needed the girl's cooperation to make her forget things, but getting her -- and the dogs -- to calm down was something he could do on his own.

Seriously, it looks like Vivenna is once again going to need to reexamine whether or not she thinks Vasher is manipulating her. He doesn't need to be charming to be a manipulator, if he's got magic powers. Oh, and didn't he say he didn't have powerful friends like Denth did...and then turned out to be buddies with a priest?

Also, if Vasher had this ability, why hasn't he used it before? Like,
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 01, 2007, 12:43:42 AM
I thought this was a really well-written chapter, especially the constant interplay between descriptions of light and darkness.  With the book so focused on colors and light, I'd love to see more of that in earlier chapters, too.

Quote
Night in T’Telir was very different from her homeland.  There, it had been possible to see so many stars overhead that it looked like a bucket of white sand had been sprayed into the air. 

Here, there were street lamps.  Beyond that, there were taverns, restaurants, and other houses of entertainment.  The result was a city full of lights--a little like the stars themselves had come down to inspect grand T’Telir.  At first, Vivenna had been surprised at how few stars she could see in the sky, and had attributed it to the lower altitude.  However, she was beginning to suspect that it was the light.

That's beautifully written in itself, shows an enlarging of Vivenna's inner ability both to appreciate beauty and to deduce, and it's a nice example of a slightly more primitive level of cosmological understanding in action.  (N.B., she's looking up at the street lamps, which to someone not used to them might look like "stars [that] have come down.")

(I do note that she's having these poetic thoughts while being a drab...I still don't know what if anything being a drab does to one's mental state, but I thought I'd point that out.)

Other thoughts/comments:

- The D'Denir statues have been mentioned often enough that it now feels like foreshadowing.

- Can you say anything about your writing process and these 3.0 chapters you've been posting recently?  Oddly they seem to contain far more small errors than the past 1.0 and 2.0 chapters (missing words, "she" instead of "he," that kind of thing).  Or is this just a sign of how busy you are with all the other projects you're working on?  (Congratulations on the Alcatraz news: even if it is very preliminary it's still very cool!)


As far as nomenclature, the basic problem I have, as I mentioned above, is that there are too many different, unrelated names for things.  Some terms like "Breath" and "Awakening" seem to relate to life; others like "Iridescent tones" relate to color and sound; "BioChroma" is really the only word that links them; and then there are others like "First Heightening" and "Commands" that don't fit into either.

I don't like "Iridescence" because that word has a specific connotation of shifting colors -- it just doesn't mean what you need it to mean.  Nobody has much "Iridescence."  (It also sounds too related to "Idris.")  Ditto with "Prismatic."

Something like "Chrominance" might work although it is long and like "BioChroma" suffers from sounding very scientific.  You could perhaps shorten it to just "chroma":   "She grimaced, then did as told, sending her chroma into her shirt with a basic, and non-active, Command."

You could also make BioChroma feel simpler and less technical -- and more foreign -- in the same way, by lowercasing it and putting it in italics: "He didn't have much biochroma" or "He gave away his biochroma."

In fact, I don't know if you've already considered this and rejected it, but what about replacing "Breath" with something else?  It seems to be the word that least accurately or poetically conveys what it in fact is and does.  You can give away your Breath and still breathe and live; you can Awaken something with Breath and it does not breathe or live.  The word may cause more conceptual confusion than it is worth.

This is also a perfect place to invent a word, I should add, since the concept isn't something that exists in our language.  Of course, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is, so can't be of much help for another 10 chapters...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 01, 2007, 12:49:49 AM
She felt safe -- for about five seconds, until she figured out that Vasher could be using his newly-revealed mind control powers to make her feel that way.

Hehehe...you've gotta be careful what you say on these message boards!  I totally thought of you when I read that part of the chapter.  Maybe he did make her eat the squid... :D

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on March 01, 2007, 01:57:23 AM
My feelings about that section were a bit different. I loved the chapter, and having more of it to read was wonderful, but I didn't feel as the others did that Vasher was using some kind of mind control, on the dogs and the little girl. Let me see if I can verbalize what is really just a feeling to me.

It really is harder to do than I thought. Hmmm, the best way to do it, I guess, is just to say that from my personal experience, children and animals can sense good intentions and bad intentions, but the stuff in the middle confuses them. Vivenna couldn't get anywhere with the little girl because she had been scared witless and couldn't tell what Vivenna wanted her for. Vasher had only one thing in his mind when he went to her, and only one thing in his mind when he saw her in that cage. Protect, and return. The dogs are more instinctual, good and evil are easy, but middle ground they treat with wariness.

I don't know if that made a whole lot of sense, but I saw it as a hint at his true nature, not mind control powers.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on March 01, 2007, 02:18:29 AM
Maybe he did make her eat the squid... :D

Hmm...yeah, I was pretty surprised about that. I guess Brandon agrees with you that it's okay to use deus ex machina to introduce a character's powers. Unless Dawn is right and there's a mundane explanation for that stuff.

I still think that it's better not to use deus ex machina. Here's an alternative: During the prologue, have a line like, "Unfortunately, Vasher's mind control powers wouldn't work on Pahn; he'd have to resort to persuasion" in order to set up those powers' existence. Then, take out the part where Vivenna worries about the girl's mind, so that Vasher's powers in that part aren't solving a problem. (After Vasher uses his powers, she might be horrified that the child has forgotten; Vasher could then explain with a line like, "well, if you'd spent the last few weeks in a cell like that, would you want to remember it?" --To which Vivenna's unspoken reply would likely be that she seemed to be better off for her memories in the slums.)

Although, it should occur to Vivenna at some point that perhaps that week when Vasher claimed she was unconscious...she really wasn't. (Either Vasher was controlling her and didn't want her to remember what he'd gotten her to do, or she'd had some terrible experiences before he found her that he thought she'd be better off not remembering.) I think it's unlikely that this actually happened, but it's a possibility that should bother Vivenna a lot.



Matt, you have a good point about "Iridescence"; even so, I think it's better than "chroma" or "biochroma" because the latter two still sound scientific enough to defeat the point of changing the name at all.

Perhaps we ought to consider the obvious: "color", "essence" (or "life-essence"), "soul energy". On second thought, not "color": I'm still not sure what the relationship is between actual color and the-thing-currently-known-as-BioChroma, and discussing it would be terribly awkward if they both shared the same name.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 01, 2007, 05:27:46 AM
@Tjaeden,

Books like The Lord of the Rings, The Last Unicorn, Watership Down, Gene Wolfe's Peace, Jonathan Carroll's Wooden Sea, K.J. Bishop's The Etched City, any of Kelly Link's stories (I'm looking over at my bookshelf and reading off titles) all violate your suggestion.  I don't think pointing out one or two exceptions to a generalization renders the generalization useless, but I do have a problem with any generalization that excludes so many good books.

I'm with you, though, in enjoying books where magic is more of an art than a science.

@DavidB,

I don't think any of my nomenclature suggestions are great, either.  I'm just tossing ideas out at this point, because I don't know whether we should be emphasizing color, life, sound, essence, soul, etc.

Some of the words you mentioned in your list of Susebron clichés might be interesting to look at here.  Radiance is evocative, and vibrance would be a good word to play off of because it is strongly visual but also (via vibrate) is linked to sound.

Another possibility is that if Iridescence is the word of choice, then adjust the magic to play down the saturation aspect and instead make those people with many Breaths appear more iridescent and/or make them experience the colors of what they see as changing and shimmering rather than static-but-saturated.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on March 01, 2007, 06:30:22 AM
I know it was mentioned but
Quote
Even as she watched, she got it wrong.  The cloth wiggled across the room, but
I think you meant to say "as he watched"
But I do feel that the beginning here is a little formulaic -- the heroine is a great learner at breath.  I think that may slightly go against your rules of magic -- I'd expect vivena to have mental blocks -- not great learner -- only explanation is that it has a link to her hair.

I also find something jarring about how Vasher looks at how well Vivena and then jumps into "Even as he watched" Maybe a "yet as he watched" would be less jarring"

Quote
Of course, the mechanics of how he moved about on the ropes were far more complicated than they seemed.  His Command incorporated making the rope respond to taps of his finger along its length.  One had to get it just right when one spoke it, because once an Awakening happened, no further Command could be given.  Awakening was different from creating a Lifeless--they had brains, and could interpret Commands and requests.  The rope had none of that; it could only act on its original instructions.
that line feels like you really want to catch up on explanations of the magic system and either needs to be earlier or assumed IMNSHO
If you wish to state it in less words maybe you could take the next paragraph and merge them
Setting off prearranged commands with a few taps, he lowered himself back down.   Unknowingly, Vivenna turned her back to him again as she picked up another colored swatch to use as fuel when she Awakened her cup-fetching ribbon.
 
Quote
You can’t tell, Vasher replied.
In my tired state I read it as a question, maybe if Vasher had told the blade not to be silly or something it would have been clearer, or maybe I should go to bed.

Quote
What does it matter if he sees me practicing? she thought, flushing.  It’s not like I have anything to hide.
  There is no pause between these thoughts and that makes it incongruous.

Quote
I’ve tried other leads, but the truth is that most everything I try seems a step behind Denth. 
  seems is a weak  word.

Quote
She still mulled over their conversation about Awakening.  Less because of what he’d said.  More because of the way he’d said it. 
again maybe it's that I'm tired but the period between said and more seemed wrong Maybe a semicolon will work.

Quote
However, she was beginning to suspect that it was the light. 
I thought for a second I missed something about a mystic light -- perhaps you meant city's light?

Quote
They left behind places with street lights, and even lit windows, moving into the slums.
probably  the places with street. . . is stronger.

Quote
Two guards,” Vasher said.  “Both silenced.”
silenced sounds like a euphamism for killed more than knocked out.

I think that you ought to have a special font/style for Nightblade -- so that I don't think somebody elses thoughts -- here Vivena's are Nightblade's thoughts.

HA I WAS RIGHT
Quote
quietly apologizing to each one
life giving -- not animating!

I definately think that the word format is jarring and my tiredness doesn't help, but for a draft it's quite good.  I've seen final copies of your collegues works that weren't as well crafted despite their loftier reputation.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on March 01, 2007, 07:30:59 AM
Tjaeden,

You seem to be implicitly assuming that art and science are mutually exclusive, and that beauty and understanding are inversely related. Just saying, is all.


Matt,
Quote
Another possibility is that if Iridescence is the word of choice, then adjust the magic to play down the saturation aspect and instead make those people with many Breaths appear more iridescent and/or make them experience the colors of what they see as changing and shimmering rather than static-but-saturated.

This doesn't really address your point, but--
I think the word "iridescence" technically refers to a surface creating a diffraction or rainbow effect, like the rainbow pattern you see on the shiny side of a compact disk, by reflecting different colors most strongly at different angles. (There doesn't have to be any "changing" or "shimmering" at all.) So the God King's rainbow effect might actually be iridescence, and it's vaguely possible that iridescence plays a role in an awakener's ability to more accurately distinguish different colors, since some light sensors use diffraction to do exactly that.

I like your idea of replacing both "biochroma" and "breath" with a single term. It's tricky, though, because it kind of makes sense to say that each person has one indivisible biochromatic breath, but if you changed the term to, say, mana or energy, then it would be much more difficult. The word "soul" would work nicely, except for the pesky connotation of housing a person's self-ness.

Heh. I just looked up "soul" in a thesaurus. Esprit, vim, zest...maybe we should just call it "soap".


Vadia,

There are some good points in your post, but I have to disagree with you about having a different font or style for Nightblade. I think in general that books which have different fonts for different characters, or set off certain characters' text ~(~like this~)~ tend to look a little gimmicky. Also, I think it's important to explain the way Vasher's awakened rope works; maybe it would work better for you if that paragraph were simply a little shorter?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 01, 2007, 02:36:56 PM
David, you're right: I meant and should have written that the colors would change/shimmer as the person or thing moved.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Master Bombadil on March 01, 2007, 05:56:18 PM
Yeah, soap!

Actually I like the idea of just getting rid of BioChroma and using 'breath.'  That seems like the easiest way to do it without emphasizing either color or sound.

Vasher's sword is Nightblood, not Nightblade.

About the actual chaoter...I liked this one a lot, I think because there was more action.  It might be a good idea to try to do something to emphasize the fact that Vasher and Vivenna are drabs when they go after the thieves, because I kept forgetting.  Maybe desribing colors as 'muted,' or something like that.

I thought that it was stated earlier that when commands are half-spoken or mumbled, the breath for them is lost.  So why didn't Vivenna lose her breath when she stored it with a 'half Command,' and why didn't she use 'my breath to yours'?

When Vasher got along so well with the girl and the dogs, at first I though it might be Nightblood's powers, but that doesn't seem in character for it.  However it was done, it probably isn't strong enough to work on adults, which is why Vasher has only used it on animals and a small child; Vivenna probably doesn't need to worry, though there is no telling what he might be able to do when near a person for a long time.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on March 02, 2007, 05:54:51 AM
quote]


Vadia,

There are some good points in your post, but I have to disagree with you about having a different font or style for Nightblade. I think in general that books which have different fonts for different characters, or set off certain characters' text ~(~like this~)~ tend to look a little gimmicky. Also, I think it's important to explain the way Vasher's awakened rope works; maybe it would work better for you if that paragraph were simply a little shorter?

The one difference is that the blade is telapathy which is like thought and if you show the same text for telapathy and thought it is confusing.  When I see thoughts and expect telapathy or vice versa it can totally confuse me.  But you may be correct about the font difference anyway - - the most important thing is to make sure that I don't think that Nightblade tells Vivena that Vash is a good man -- it really threw me off thinking that for a few seconds and then I lost my place (and in my tired mistake almost made the same mistake again.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on March 05, 2007, 12:22:13 AM
With the mind control stuff...

I don't think Vasher has any mind control powers. He is always talking about intention. I think it's the same thing here. He is so used to doing everything with extra intention because that's the best way to control things you are animating. He probably does this automatically now and so well that the child and dogs can sense that. There was never anything in the rest of the book about being able to influence someone else's thoughts or feelings with biochroma and it would be wierd to introduce that now. It doesn't seem in the nature of the magic.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on March 07, 2007, 09:07:01 PM
New chapter is up!


Chapter Fifty (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-050-3.0.doc)


As I've said before, I hesitate to respond TOO much to the things posted here, as I don't want to taint responses in any way.  I learn far more from observation than I do from interaction.  However, I will say that I didn't even think that people would get mind control from Vasher's actions in the last chapter, and I see that I'll have to think about that.  I just wanted to show that kids and animals like Vasher.  This relates to the magic system slightly, as I'm making some things that are superstition in our world (such as the prickly feeling you get when someone is watching you) realities here, as related to breath.  So, I allow the idea in our world that children and animals can sense purity to be a reality--via their Breath--in this world.  I'll have to think about how to explain this properly.

Chapter fifty marks the ten-chapter count-down for the book!  There are actually fifty-nine chapters in the complete work, and this chapter ends us at about page 640 out of 740 manuscript pages. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on March 07, 2007, 10:02:26 PM
Quote
“Are you going to explain why you consider showing me up to be the most sincere form of compliment?”

   “Of course I am,” Lightsong said.  “My dear, have you ever known me to make an inflammatorily ridiculous statement without providing an equally ridiculous explanation to back it up?”

I had to reread this to make sense of the "of course I am."  By the time I ended the first question I took the question to be as Blushweaver intended: "Why is showing me up..?"  To which of course I am makes no sense -- this could be -- should you want to, be edited two ways --
“Of course I am.” Lightsong said. 
Blushweaver looked at him askew "Of course you are what?"
"Of course I am going to explain why showing you up. . ."

Then out of perversity he waits a few paragraphs before coming back to it.  Very much in character -- probably hard to pull off, and takes up space -- but if you DO pull it off, wow.

On the other hand you could just take out the "of course I am" and the sentence makes just as much sense


Point deux when Sisi is looking over her plan
Quote
First, go to Lightsong
   I wait for Susebron to arrive
The paragraph shift without a next or then or whatnot -- again I was confused.

Third and finally: This sentence
Quote
They force the God King’s priests to let him make his defense.
Too many pronouns
They the other priests?
him Godking?
his godgkings?
defense -- that he has a tongue?

I'm still confused by this one, what is Sisi hoping will happen?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on March 07, 2007, 10:46:33 PM
I'm relieved to hear about Vasher's lack of mind-control powers. I guess part of the reason I assumed he must be using magic to control the child and dogs was because he's so far been described as uncharismatic and scruffy, so I pictured him as a dangerous, villainous looking man who would be more likely to scare kids than charm them, especially when he's angry and just finished beating on folk.

I really enjoyed chapter 50. I guess my only comment about it is that, while I knew Nightblood was large, I didn't realize it was five feet worth of large until this chapter. But maybe I missed a reference to Nighblood's size earlier?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 08, 2007, 12:54:36 AM
I think the phrase "mind control" was used because of the related discussion in the thread about magic.  I didn't get the impression it went quite that far, but it did (and does) seem odd that this "emotive" facet of Breath hadn't come up in the book before.  As for purity...is Vasher more "pure" then Vivenna?  My thought had been that he was less afraid than she was, which is something children and animals do pick up on, Breath or no Breath.  As I read that previous chapter, it didn't seem like Vasher was packing extra Breath when he calmed the child in the cage, while Vivenna was.  So yes, I think this could use some clarification.

Moving on to this chapter, I really enjoyed the opening dialogue between Lightsong and Blushweaver.  They are an odd mix of ally and adversary, with mutual feelings of affection and respect yet also a wary distrust.  Theirs is probably the most complex and adult relationship in the book, and the way they (Lightsong in particular) express it mainly by talking around it is rather touching, in a sad sort of way.

Although...

Quote
"They're lazy," Lightsong said.  "They want others to make the difficult decisions for them."

...this from the God who just a few chapters ago was trying to give his Command Words to Allmother?

Siri's part of the chapter seemed a bit contrived to me...both that she waited this long to talk to Lightsong (see DavidB's post a few pages ago) and that she and Seb were going separately.  And like vadia, I'm confused about what she hoped would happen.

Was "Weatherlove" mentioned before?  It feels distracting to be mentioning new names this late in the book.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on March 10, 2007, 07:51:24 PM
I am glad that my initial feeling about it not being mind control was a good one. I am not sure how I would have followed that one.

This chapter....hmmm, what to say. Naturally there are some minor typos, but that is to be expected. As for the story, I am not totally surprised about the turn of events in the palace of the God King. You kind of had to feel that it was coming, they had been going along too well.

I am glad that Lightsong took a walk away from the voting for the moment, and that he let Blushweaver know that she couldn't bully him on this. A little bit of backbone never hurt anyone ;) I am also glad that he is thinking about how odd it is to be missing such an important day at court just because you managed to get a woman with child. Hopefully he looks into that more closely and realizes there is a problem.

I also like that Vivenna is actually remembering that she has a sister, and taking some concern for her well being. Vasher's response doesn't really surprise me either, I think he isn't as bad a guy as he would like people to believe :)

I also am loving that we are entering the final stretch of the book. While the whole of your books are fabulous EUOL, I do find that the last fifteen or so chapters are a bit more action, since you have done such a great job of character development for the beginning part of the book :D  So far, I am loving this book.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on March 12, 2007, 05:58:58 PM
Thanks for bringing that up, Dawncawley.  I've always wanted Viv's chapters to focus more on her goal of rescuing her sister.  That was her prime motivation (even though it was selfish - ViV wanted to feel useful) to go to Hallendren.  And that motivation just got so buried and forgotten, Viv's character has a shallowness - mirrored by her time with the Merc's.

I didn't see a mind influencing effect stem from the breaths - but I did think it was because Vasher was more in command, mentally and emotionally. 

What really bothers me, and maybe it's because of the 1 chapter a week - is that the build to the climax was kind of slow for Brandon.  This latest chapter has me on the edge of my seat - but to what?  I'm not sure what I (as a reader) am supposed to feel for - I know nothing about Idris anymore, it's been to long since we heard anything from there.  Viv seems fine now, she learned her lesson not to judge. 

So what can I expect in the next few remaining chapters?  Denth vs. Vasher?  Too easy, and we know Vasher will win (he's definitely not Kelsier).  Lightsong vs. Blushweaver?  While it would be cool reading about 2 armies of zombies fighting...  it's still just zombies.  Maybe a personal battle?  Neither of them have shown much competence at swords or magic.  Siri and Susebron vs. Priests?  While this one seems compelling, this is the political conflict, and seems the least one prone to a violent conclusion.

I'm not saying I don't love the story - I do.  I'm just saying it better be one hell of an ending to tie up all the loose ends.  I want to see Lightsong be more of the detective, that aspect of the story was great.  But then...  this is exactly what Bradon wants us to think.  I'm guessing that he wants the reader to feel frustrated with Siri's lack of perspective - just as she is. 

There are just some things I'm not 'feelin.'
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on March 14, 2007, 06:53:40 PM
Chapter Fifty-one (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-051-3.0.doc)

New chapter, with an extra large dose of everyone's favorite psychopathic sword.

Thanks for the comments on the last chapter; I'll look again at the Siri section and see if I can strengthen her framework a bit. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on March 14, 2007, 07:13:46 PM
Quote
   It’s not always about killing, Vasher said.
This was underlined.  Is it said or thought?

Quote
He and I are going to have a long talk about what he did to my sister.”
He and I seems to be a bit bulky, perhaps "The two of us"


Denth coming out of the blue seems odd.  Why is a merc allowed in the Godkings house anyway?  I would never have expected Denth inside the palace. 
But, if he didn't know where Sisi lived and was asking a random servant -- which is a possibility given that nobody knew where Sisi would be, and the mercs attack the outside of the house; that seems less odd to me.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Guido on March 14, 2007, 10:07:01 PM
Hello all.  First time posting, long time lurking.  I'm loving the book, but I just wanted to note:  from what we've seen of nightblade, i'd have expected him / it to do a LOT more damage than it did in this fight.  How was it taken out?  Who was the awakener here?  None of the Mercs (as far as I remeber) have ever shown that ability.  Did someone just use an awakened 'something' to grab it from whoever should have been killing everyone around them? 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on March 15, 2007, 12:11:29 AM
I think Denth had quite a bit of breath and he was going to teach Viv how to awaken (although he probably wouldn't have taught her much)... he could awaken but I he wasn't as good as Vasher.

I thought the same thing about nightblood. The guys at the door were fighting with him... those guys are good fighters so they would have been able to get nightblood from them. I suppose they knew the influence nightblood has over people's emotions and were able to get him from the guards without going on a killing spree.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 15, 2007, 12:19:30 AM
Denth coming out of the blue seems odd.  Why is a merc allowed in the Godkings house anyway?  I would never have expected Denth inside the palace.

Really?  As soon as that rope snatched at Vasher, I was pretty sure Denth was involved.  It has long seemed to me that Denth must be working with someone in the Court of Gods, the person/group trying to foment war, and thus it's no surprise that he'd be involved in the coup at the palace.  As soon as it was clear that it was not Lifeless guarding Siri but fighters -- mercenaries -- Denth-the-mercenary-captain fits right in.  Plus the "reunion of the former allies where one uses their knowledge of the other to lay a trap" is a classic story device.

(Usually it is followed by the "it doesn't matter because there's nothing you can do now that I've captured you, so let me reveal all my plans" device -- hopefully we avoid that here.)

Anyway, I enjoyed this chapter, it was a good mix of action and dialogue, continuing story and new revelation (so it sounds like Vasher was one of the 5 Scholars, as was Denth's sister?).  Nightblood is always fun, too.  Although what did confuse me is that on one hand you say Nightblood doesn't know what evil is, but on the other if you toss the sword into a room full of people an evil person will be drawn to wield it against the others (all the others or just the "evil" others?) and then kill themselves, while a good person will just be nauseated.  Which sounds like either there is some new form of magic involved with Nightblood, or there is some understanding of "evil."

I'm also a little confused about the timing of this chapter: have two weeks elapsed since the day when Siri was taken, or was Denth hiding in the God King's palace unknown to Siri and Susebron for some of the time before that day?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on March 15, 2007, 02:26:28 AM
Good point about the timing. Perhaps that can be addressed at the beginning of the chapter in some way. I was bothered a bit by it, but not too much. I just kind of glossed that bit over.

I really am not shocked by Denth, but the revelation that the woman that Vasher and Nightblood killed was his sister is way more interesting, to me. Perhaps we shall understand this relationship between them sooner rather than later :)

Either way, I loved the conversation between Nightblood and Vasher, while it was also nice to see a bit of Tonk back again. All in all, a very good chapter I thought.

I think I will have to re-read to see what I missed the first time through, but I liked it a lot.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tjaeden on March 15, 2007, 02:10:37 PM
But since all the "good" guys are getting neutralized, isn't Brandon seating up some all powerfull display of the God-King's power to "fix" things?  Or Viv suddenly demonstrating complete command over her Breaths?

The idea of "evil" and what an inanimate object thinks it is, is marvelous!  Combined with the questioning of a 5 year old, and Nightblood rose to be my #2 favorite character.

I was wondering when Denth would turn up, and expected him sooner.  His line about waiting 2 weeks might match up with the last time he tried to capture Vivena, and explains why Vasher hasn't found him.  So, to me, the timing seemed to fit - but more specific information never hurt. 

What did neutralize Nightblood?  Those mercs should have jumped at the blade - anyone as "strong-willed" as Denth is defiantly a leader, not a follower.  But with all of *cough* Blushwaver's *cough* gold, Denth could - and would have - hired only the best.  And he knew how to counter the sword. 

Vasher should have used the blade like a blade, not like a grenade.   To me, that makes him kind of a weaker character.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on March 15, 2007, 06:09:49 PM
I liked chapter 51 a lot. I wasn't at all confused about the timing when I read it.

It seemed to me that back in chapter 50, Vivenna asked Vasher to rescue Siri, so he ran home, grabbed Nightblood, and came back right away. So when Denth said he'd been waiting for two weeks, it seemed obvious that he'd been there more or less since Vivenna escaped from him. Presumably, the priests who grabbed Siri in chapter 50 have been helping to conceal him, since it's apparent that they're up to No Good.

Though I suppose it wouldn't hurt to change Denth's line to say that he'd been waiting since Vivenna escaped.

Vivenna would certainly have noticed if Denth had had a lot of breath when she was with him. So presumably he was storing it in his clothes or something the whole time. In fact, he must have continued to store the breath until the moment before he jumped Vasher, or Vasher would have been able to sense him. (I suppose Susebron -- assuming he's still around -- would have sensed both of them during this fight, so he's probably got a pretty good idea of what's going on. My guess about what happens next is that he's going to find some way to communicate with Vivenna, so that she can Go Do Something About It.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on March 21, 2007, 07:16:15 PM
New chapter is here:

Chapter Fifty-two (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-052-3.0.doc)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on March 21, 2007, 07:59:12 PM
only one comment but it's a biggie -- Why doesn't Lightsong go for the Lifeless?  He seemingly has about 2000 soldiers behind him, why doesn't he call them to help him -- In fact, its more useful because their biochroma is masked (I think).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Guido on March 21, 2007, 08:01:29 PM
because he's the bold.  He tends to act a lot more than he thinks.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 22, 2007, 08:00:24 PM
I liked the latest chapter, good to see Lightsong-the-detective back in action.  His actions at the end didn't bother me, he thinks of himself as an invulnerable God.  Plus who knows, if he can bleed, maybe he also can get at least a little bit drunk....

And yay, a Denth-Blushweaver connection is made.  It's fun to get these things right every now and then.  If, um, not quite what I had expected.  :o

Question: does Lightsong have a lot of Breath, or does he just naturally have a lot of BioChroma as a Returned God?  I've always understood the Returned Gods as needing regular infusions of Breath because each Breath they gain runs out over the span of a week or thereabouts.  The idea of Lightsong having a lot of BioChroma, with which to sense life, hasn't been mentioned before I don't think.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 22, 2007, 09:18:47 PM
The Denth-Blushweaver connection? What do you mean? The guy who Lightsong overheard talking to Denth wanted Denth's help interrogating Blushweaver, but Denth declined. Doesn't sound like a Denth-Blushweaver connection to me.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 22, 2007, 10:16:03 PM
Good point, read that bit too quickly!

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on March 23, 2007, 02:03:26 AM
It sounded more to me like Tonk was talking to Denth about tourturing, but Denth declined because he was going to go "talk" with Vasher.

I was actually rather suprised by seeing Blushweaver like that.  She was the victum, right?  So if she was behind the war, why would she be trapped?

A side note, the comment about how beautiful her nightgown is seems slightly out of place.  Why comment on the beauty of it?  Everything she wears is beautiful.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 23, 2007, 04:07:19 AM
I was actually rather suprised by seeing Blushweaver like that.  She was the victum, right?  So if she was behind the war, why would she be trapped?

Well, either she wasn't behind the war, her allies turned on her, or it's some clever trap to deceive Lightsong...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on March 23, 2007, 04:32:20 AM
Maybe BW was just not aggressive enough -- so they wanted to step up things.  [I guess we'll just have to find out]

I still have difficulties with Lightsong charging in -- his instincts are better than that -- especially when he relatively just passed the lifeless.  I thought he was good at sleuthing -- but with this point he's just a shlamiel.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on March 23, 2007, 11:22:06 PM
Denth went to torture Vasher and Tonk wanted denth to help him interrogate Blushweaver. Did he really "kill" (he said dispose of...) nightblood though?! That's sad.

I think if I heard her screaming I would assume she was in immediate danger so she would need me right then
(although I would have just gotten stabbed too...) I think they had walked a while... at least a few minutes so the lifeless would be a few minutes away... and he does think he's invincible, Or he can die but it would be his own choice? He also had a lot of skills that he didn't know about it and thought sword fighting might be one of them. I think what he did didn't seem like such a wierd thing. They are friends and he "is lightsong the bold."
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on March 28, 2007, 06:16:29 PM
I don't think it was Tonk talking to Denth. More likely one of the priests still there when Lightsong attacked. It's too bad he didn't know how to use a sword. And I'm assuming that Llarimar is also being held at sword point, but it might help to mention that.

I wonder though, if Lightsong had instincts to know how to sneak, know how to interrogate and investigate, why wouldn't he have instincts on how to best deal with the soldiers? Of course, the encounter is not yet over, so anything could happen. It would be funny though, even if Lightsong's past life knew nothing about fighting, if Blushweaver's past life did, or something like that.

I think that they were torturing her because they wanted command of the Lifeless themselves, which kinda sucks, since now they have Lightsong captive, and he has the rest of the army.

But then, maybe she was sneaking in herself, and was caught... a little out of character, but since we don't know what her past life was, it's possible. More likely that her "contact" in the palace betrayed her, but it's still possible. And I suppose it's proof that Lightsong loves her that he rushed in to help without thinking about the Lifeless, plus, he'd have to search the rooms to find the ones that were his, and those rooms are big; getting from one to the other may have taken too long.


On an earlier note, I am confused as to how the fighting over stopped. In theory, once drawn, once the fighting begins, it wouldn't stop until everyone who wanted it was dead. Interesting that Denth and Tonk didn't come out until after the fighting stopped.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on March 28, 2007, 07:39:26 PM
Chapter Fifty-three (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-053-3.0.doc)

Things start to go a little crazy from here on....

As for the conversation, among other things, it's obvious I have to clarify the use of Nightblood in the hallway up there. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Guido on March 28, 2007, 08:26:36 PM
um... wow.   A LITTLE crazy?  What counts as "out of control" then?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on March 28, 2007, 08:44:25 PM
Out of control would be the ending of Elantris, which is crazy, even for me.  I think I'm better at having a controlled avalanche now, as opposed to everything just toppling over and squishing the reader.  (I think)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Guido on March 28, 2007, 08:53:59 PM
Yeah, i can see that.  Still, i have to say i'm wondering how they good guys are going to manage to win.  And where is the God-King through all of this?  You think he'd have something to say about not being allowed to see his wife.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on March 28, 2007, 09:04:35 PM
So much for them being fighters... But why would a scribe know such an odd assortment of skills?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on March 28, 2007, 09:29:56 PM
I didn't like the "lap lap lap" thing maybe if it were in thought symbols.

I think that the torture scene was too short.  (not enough time to make up his mind.  He's in so much shock that they'd have killed Llarimar before he fully understood that Blushweaver was dead.)

"We'll give you an hour to decide -- then we'll do the same with him (point to llarimar)."
type of thing.

Llarimar doesn't seem the heroic type, I think he'd whimper while Lightsong agonizes over his choice.

After an hour of that and the interregator whips out his knife with Lightsong's momentary hesitation and he'd blurt out the response in a New York minute.  IMNSHO.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on March 29, 2007, 12:25:07 AM
I actually really liked the lap lap lap thing. Like he was a crazy old fisherman guy who has no morals just wants to eat and not do what people tell him or something...
I really liked his dance dance dance thing too. It was really random and funny to think about. It brought me back to corpse bride.

I wasn't ready for that chapter to be over!!! I can't wait until next week!!!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on March 29, 2007, 05:00:06 PM
So like I was saying last week, the Blushweaver-Denth connection is made.  :P

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on March 29, 2007, 06:01:50 PM
Well, at least a Blushweaver-God King Priesthood-Denth connection. ;)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on March 29, 2007, 06:30:22 PM
And the God King's Priests show their ugly colors. But are they really working for the war, or do they just want to have the command phrases so no one else can start the war without them? I know it is kind of far-fetched, and I really don't know how it would work out, but it was just another random conspiracy theory ;)

Vivenna seems to be learning more than she lets on, and finally taking that hard look at herself that I have been hoping for, as have some others I think. Granted it was a kind of short lived look, but there was so much going on that I don't think EUOL could have spent more time on it without tipping the balance of the chapter. Which I thought was really good by the way :)

Lightsong as a scribe.....I guess I can see it, and if he was a scribe for a loan shark, if I am remembering that right, he would have had a naturally inquisitive nature, and would be used to following and sneaking around in places he shouldn't be to report back to his boss. That part of his nature seems to have a purpose, but as for the rest of it.... I just don't know about it. I love Scoot finally losing it on him though, I have been anxiously waiting for that to happen. The man has the patience of a Saint, but honestly, there has to be a breaking point and I guess they reached it with the dungeon.

Siri, well, there really isn't too much to say about that this time. Her part was really brief, but at least she realizes that something is going on and tries to make herself heard. Good girl on her part not just following meek as a lamb, and still having some fight left in her.

With all of that being said, I am anxiously awaiting next week :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: candylion on March 29, 2007, 11:27:59 PM
Lightsong...a scribe. Hahaha. -laughs-
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on April 01, 2007, 06:46:02 PM
Well, at least a Blushweaver-God King Priesthood-Denth connection. ;)

Oh, pshaw: I never said Blushweaver and Denth were dating, just that I thought they must be part of the same warmongering faction.  And if you look back, I speculated that there would likely be some third group involved as well, because none of those we knew about seemed to have sufficient motivation.  That, BTW, is still true.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on April 01, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
no motivation except for the northern passages and general fear. They are being mislead of course with the fear thing. It seems like people have gotten worked up over nothing and they think war is the only way. I'm pretty sure we will find some more reasons as the book ends, but I think the motivation for most of them are lies and things blown out of proportion.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on April 04, 2007, 07:32:00 PM
So one thing I'm waiting for; when do we get to find out who the Second Intruder is? And what did Vasher find out in those tunnels? That all happened back in chapters 26-27, and I'm just hoping we start seeing those loose ends get tied. I mean, with Vasher left tied up in the Palace, which is obviously available through the tunnels, Why didn't he explore and find the way into the city proper, and use that to rescue Siri instead of entering through the outside, and being more predictable to Denth? Who is the Other Intruder, and are they still somewhere in the tunnels? If the God-King supposedly has a set of master codes to the lifeless, why would his priests need to get them from Lightsong? And if the Priests wanted to interrogate Blushweaver, why'd they just kill her? And if Lightsong was only a scribe, and always getting them (he and Llarimar) into serious trouble, what is it about Lightsong that Llarimar admired, to make him one of the best men he knew?

On another note, in Idris, if the King often visited the Returned there, why wouldn't it be expected for them to use their breath to heal someone else, since that's what the Gods in Hallandren do. I mean, being a Returned isn't a sin to them, just the taking of other's breaths to stay alive. So, if they were sent back by Austre for a reason, it must be to heal someone else. In theory.

Of course, it's entirely possible (and likely) that my questions will be answered in the next few chapters, but that's what I'm thinking right now.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on April 04, 2007, 07:34:59 PM
Chapter Fifty-four (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-054-3.0.doc)

New chapter is up  for you fine folks, though I don't know when I'll be able to blog it.  Important phone call coming any moment now.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on April 04, 2007, 08:40:13 PM
And so some of the questions do get answered. Very cool. Talk about plot twists. That makes both of the Sisters getting betrayed by the One Person they each thought they could trust (Denth and Havarseth)

Varatridees (Denth) and Tridees are quite similar names for very different people. Or are they really so unconnected?

Although, have we met the Niece yet? Lightsong's Niece? Stennimar might have more significance to us if we'd heard the name before. Was he someone important to the historical plot before? Not that he needs to have a significance, but if Lightsong had heard the name before, from someone, or some writing, or something, it might... Make a difference in the feel... I don't know... A suggestion... One perhaps needing some salt...

I still want to know who the other intruder is.

Just had another thought... Who was the girl in the painting? My guess is that if it isn't the Past (Shashara?), then it's the future – Vivenna, who Nightblood likes, while she hates it. What a wonderful relationship. Now if she were able to draw him without throwing up, she is the likeliest of all to let Nightblood know what evil is. Though it would likely be miserable for her, not to mention traumatic, corrupting, or even lethal to her. Toxic at least. That would mean either dealing with the nausea or losing control of the sword and go on a killing spree. My vote's on the nausea.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on April 04, 2007, 11:02:48 PM
And so some of the questions do get answered. Very cool. Talk about plot twists. That makes both of the Sisters getting betrayed by the One Person they each thought they could trust (Denth and Havarseth)

Yes, and both pull the same trick of stating their method plainly, out in the open where nobody will notice it.  Nice!

The Lightsong-Llarimar relationship was also very cool; I was wondering the same questions as Qarlin after the last chapter, but this pretty much clears them up.

What does bug me somewhat though is that in past chapters, while it was mentioned that Pahn Kahl existed before the Hallandren arrived, it always seemed to be referred to as a separate kingdom somewhere nearby, not as "just another province, part of the kingdom of [its] conquerors."  Granted we've been hearing the history from the victors, but more evidence, however subtle, in previous chapters of their conquered, "second-class" status would make this work better as a twist.

What I'm trying to figure out now is whether what we're seeing now was the plan, or if the plan was to go ahead and start the war while still orchestrating things behind the scenes, and something happened to change it.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on April 05, 2007, 12:38:25 AM
I am not sure about the original plan, but I think that the one in this chapter is fascinating.

I love the Lightsong/Scoot relationship. That is so much better than I had hoped for, but it feels so right with the plot so far. It explains questions that I had about the way Scoot always treated Lightsong with reverence and respect, even when I thought he was undeserving in the beginning.

Siri is finally seeing the way things are in the palace, and I don't think I am really too surprised by Bluefingers betrayal. As for having the Pahn Kahl seem more like second class citizens, I don't think that is neccessary. I think that is sufficiently done, mostly during the earlier chapters, but I thought that it was well done. I never thought of them as being too much more than slaves really. Maybe that was just me.

I loved this chapter, especially the insight it gives us into all of the craziness going on. I know it doesn't explain everything, but it does explain a lot and I am anxiously awaiting the next chapter :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Swiggly on April 06, 2007, 12:40:00 AM
First I thought Lightsong was dead, and then he wasn't. You're a very suspenseful person, Mr. Sanderson. I have to say, when you're posting one chapter a week and I can't delve into the next chapter of my book with overflowing curiosity and on the verge of tears and I go downstairs or call someone and yell at them about something they don't know about.

I bet your wife gets to look at the new chapters. How many more is it now? four?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on April 10, 2007, 09:06:47 PM
...the last chapter is released the last week of my college career. YAY!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on April 11, 2007, 06:59:37 PM
Chapter Fifty-five (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-055-3.0.doc)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on April 12, 2007, 04:11:33 AM
Hopefully you'll take this as the compliment that I it mean as, but I've been noticing that the prose in these 3rd drafts is flowing much more smoothly than in some of the earlier chapters/drafts.  It's going to be fun to go back and see how you've revised the earlier chapters, once the whole thing has been posted.

Two notes:

First, a minor nitpick: wasn't Lightsong stabbed in the shoulder not that long ago, causing pain that was "greater than, literally, he’d ever known in his short life?"  That seems to have been forgotten in the past 2-3 chapters.  No mention of shoulder pain, and in this chapter, his robes are "dirtied from crawling through the tunnel, then sitting in his cage" -- but not from bleeding.  Easy enough to fix.

Second,

(Usually it is followed by the "it doesn't matter because there's nothing you can do now that I've captured you, so let me reveal all my plans" device -- hopefully we avoid that here.)

:'(

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on April 13, 2007, 12:55:26 AM
I know he is revealing a lot  in this chapter, but I don't think we have very many more to go, so it kind of makes sense. Plus, I am not sure we have gotten down to the nitty-gritty, so to speak.

I really liked the twists and turns, and to be fair to EUOL, Siri and Seb don't really have a prayer of getting away at this point they are totally overwhelmed by Lifeless. No reason that Bluefingers shouldn't feel safe telling her the majority of his plans. Like I said, I don't think we have heard all there is to hear about their plans.

I can't wait for the rest. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on April 18, 2007, 07:04:09 PM
Chapter Fifty-six (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-056-3.0.doc)

Three chapters remain after this one, one of those three being a short epilogue.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on April 19, 2007, 12:51:48 AM
So, nightblood feeds on your breath until you don't have anymore then kills you?

I'm not sure what happened to the cloak here. Didn't she say "Your Breath to mine," which would take the breath out of the cloak then it wouldn't be able to do anything. but then she gave it a command. I think this is backwords.

I'm curious what happened to Vivena after vasher fell... wasn't she left in that room too. Did tonk take her somewhere? Should that have been explained here, or will that come up later? It just seemed like she disappeared...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on April 19, 2007, 03:35:04 AM
I think she took the cloaks breath, and then gave it back the same breath with a command.

When I read
Quote
“He just fell out a three story window, plummeting toward certain doom,” Denth said.  “Of course he’ll live!  Send the squad for the front doors to slow him!”  Denth glanced at Vivenna.  “You, princess, are far too much trouble for what you’re worth.”
   “So people are fond of telling me,” she said with a sigh, raising her bloodied hand to her shoulder again.

I had the rather rude thought:
Quote
Helloooo rule 3; kill her.

By this I mean he's realized that she is too much trouble and has harmed his plans a lot, once she had a clue and there she's standing helpless before her.  It would take nearly nothing to kill her -- not even a minor delay. 

Unless she's killed behind the scenes, it seems silly to let her live to try to get in his way again.  Furthermore it would be poor for his bloodthirsty reputation to just say something along the lines of "hunh, she's gotten in my way, I guess I'l just let her go and do it again."
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on April 19, 2007, 05:06:20 AM
Clearly Denth wanted Vivenna alive or he would have just killed her initially rather than stabbing her in the shoulder.

Anyway, I liked the chapter, minus a few niggles.  I've enjoyed how you've broken the POV pattern from the earlier chapters and are just going with the flow now, it makes the story feel more immediate and urgent.  Also I like how even with all the action there are still some mysterious bits added.  Vasher's thought about his fight with Denth -- "I just about had him!" -- was interesting, I wonder what trick he intended to play (the same one he used to defeat Arsteel?).  And Denth's comment -- "I've always found it funny that we bleed, just like regular men" -- did he just mean people with lots of Breath who have lived a long time, or something else?

Niggles:

- I still wince whenever Vivenna talks about her week being poor.  Partly because -- admittedly, somewhat illogically -- the idea that Vivenna feels like she could come to understand what it means to be poor and homeless in just a week feels to me like a slap in the face towards those who have been poor and homeless for much longer, or on a recurring basis, who have tried to work their way out and were rejected and forgotten.  It just doesn't feel earned, true (granted it doesn't need to be earned or true for the story to work, but it does undermine Miss "That’s why I’m the princess"'s character).  Also, in this case, partly because I find the moral recap unnecessary: "Yet, her recent past gave her the strength to push down her fear," etc.  I should, and I do, already understand this, without needing to be told it, just from watching her over the past few chapters.

- From page 2:
Quote
Denth reacted immediately, cutting the rope out of the air with his dagger.   The pieces of it twisted and wiggled

That's a sharp knife!

- From page 3:
Quote
"They're going to send Lifeless marching on your homeland," he said.

How does Vasher know this?  Did Denth tell him, just as Bluefingers told Siri?  Didn't these people read Villainy for Dummies?

- I don't know exactly how high up this third story window is, or what the acceleration due to gravity on this world is, but Vasher sure has a lot of time to do stuff while falling.

Random questions of the moment: whatever happened to Jewels and Clod; and given Jewels's impassioned defense of the Hallendren Gods, did she know what the true plan was?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Astounding on April 19, 2007, 05:33:49 AM
Can't wait to see what happens when Seb wields Nightblood with all those breaths.  He could sure make a dent in the lifeless army.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on April 19, 2007, 06:02:01 PM
I too am curious as to what happens to the cloak, but I want to know how Denth got it off him; if it wraps him up as good as the rope almost killed Tonk, then he should be incapacitated for a while, leaving Tonk (if he could take it off) to either get him out or take care of Vivenna.

That knife would have to be insanely sharp to cut a flying rope. A regular knife wouldn't have the force to cut it in mid air. The dueling sword, I could see, but not the knife. The rope would wrap around it (and prolly his hand too). That said, unless it's going to constrict his hand off, everything else that happened could basically remain the same (adding a part where he gets the rope off his hand).

But on another note, if she could tell the cloak to "Grab Denth," how come she didn't just do that to the two pieces of rope, sending one to grab Denth and the other to grab Tonk? Even specifying around the throat or make them unable to move or something like that.

So when someone Nightblood can tempt grabs him, he sucks their breath out, and then kills them. What happens when someone pure draws him (assuming they can get over the nausea)? And what would happen if someone were able to convince Nightblood that he himself is evil?

What if a Returned draws Nightblood? How much breath do they officially have for Nightblood to eat before killing them?

And if Vivenna is to die, why make it happen "off screen," as it were? Her character is important enough that an offscreen death like that (if she died there) would be anticlimactic.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on April 20, 2007, 12:59:06 AM
Why would Denth need Vivena, he's been paid already.

The point of a lot to do while falling is quite good.
it puts  a damper on my suggestion which would have been that Vivena tells Vasher to catch her as she jumps out the window. 
But I suppose you could just push it up a couple of floors to . . . say the 6th story floor.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on April 20, 2007, 05:51:32 PM
To me it seemed that everything Vasher did on the way down would have take much less time to actually "do" than it took to describe it. Maybe that was just me, but I wasn't bothered by that part at all.

As for what happened with Viv, I am a bit curious about that. Heck, let's be honest, I am dying to know what happened with her after Vasher fell out the dang window. When he comes back up, only Denth is there waiting to finish their fight. I want to know where she was, darn it! I agree with those who said if you are going to kill her, out of the picture doesn't quite feel right. So, that leaves me with the question, still, of where the heck she is.

I am anxiously awaiting next week, and am so glad that we are almost to the end. I love the increased pace as the story works toward the conclusion. It doesn't let you stop for breath, much less for putting the book down to go do something else. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on April 23, 2007, 04:28:07 AM
(sorry for not posting... I think I'm going to change my prefs so it tells me when everyone posts, and not just new ones so I get them... *glares at the system*)

Well, I was intrested to find out that you could use the color from blood and use your Breaths.  Very intresting...

I agree that we need to find out what happened with Viv...

I also hope we find out more about Astrial.  I've had that carrot dangled in front of me for a bit too long, and if I don't find out more about him and how he died (and how Vasher killed Denth's sister... unless I'm just being stupid and they're one in the same, or same situiation.) then I will have to write many fanfics, until everyone is nuts and forces it out.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Claye on April 23, 2007, 04:27:26 PM
I came a little late to the book, but I totally love it. I'm really intrigued about the significance of the royal locks and about what the freak is up with Denth and Vasher, whom I personally believe are both hundreds of years old, etc. , etc.  I also love that the main characters aren't "destined" to win. It's a lot more realistic, to me.  I really had just been expecting a bigger show of the magics, though. :'( I mean, Brandon normally has a lot of magic in his books, but this time it kind of seemed that he was struggling to put any magic but the royal locks in at all. Also, Bluefinger's betrayal is Wunderful! I almost never saw it coming. And, I wonder if Vivenna feels nauseated around Nightblood becuz she's purer, or if it's the royal locks?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on April 25, 2007, 05:09:44 AM
I haven't thought yet of how the royal locks played into everything... that's something else that's had a great build up but not been touched as much lately.  *shrugs slightly*
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on April 25, 2007, 07:38:07 PM
Chapter Fifty-seven (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-057-3.0.doc)

Here's the first half of the climax!  My favorite chapter of the book, actually, though there are still some things about the Siri scenes that I want to tweak.  I'll say more once you've read the chapter. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on April 25, 2007, 10:36:31 PM
Good stuff -- I like the filling in of Lightsong's origin.

Also I like that you're making us wait to find out what happened to Vivenna; it keeps the tension up even as the conflicts in this chapter get worked out.

Other comments:

- What you bring up in the second paragraph is something that has bugged me -- I mentioned before how Pahn Kahl seemed to be treated in the text as a separate kingdom, rather than a conquered province, and the issue of Bluefingers' role is a more personal instance of that.  The very fact that he was able to secure such an important position in the Court of Gods seems to undermine the idea of Pahn Kahl people being treated as "second class."  That doesn't mean Bluefingers has no motive for his actions, but it seems to me that either 1) the "second class" treatment should be played up a bit more (Vivenna meeting more Pahn Kahl people in the slums; Bluefingers' position being some sort of traditional, compulsary role of servitude; etc.) or 2) the motive should shift to something like revenge for the original encroachment on the Pahn Kahl homelands pure and simple.

- The word "pagan" (p.10) seemed odd to me coming from Bluefingers -- it's a very vague word with many meanings, but to me, it has the etymological connotations of an older religion still practiced among the country folk, but not in the metropolitan centers of religious thought.  When Bluefingers says it, though, I'm not sure what he means: the polytheistic Hallendren religion, or just something generically different and bloody?

- Also on page 10, regarding Siri's comments: do they have stories is this world of princesses being sacrificed on altars?

- Page 12: so a Returned can Awaken and Command things?  Or is this a special property of the God King?  I had thought that a Returned could only use his/her Breath once, and only all at once.

I notice these comments all come from the Siri parts of the chapter so apologies if they are some of the things you're already planning to tweak.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on April 26, 2007, 04:01:31 AM
*lots of squeels*

first thought on reading "caused the manywars"  WHAT?!  HE WAS OLD ENOUGH?!  HOW?! WHAT?!  AND THIS IS THE LAST CHAPTER?!   YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN!!!!!!

As for the rest, I thought it was great.  I liked how Siri stood up for herself to the end, and Vasher's way of beating Denth (although, we still don't fully understand who Arsteel so I hope that is taken care of).  Although, I really can't wait to see the epilogue, since it has to be a really long one to wrap everything up in a satisfactory manner.

Over all, I can't wait to get a nice copy that's all bound and see the pretty cover art... this is great, but my mum will kill me if I try to print it out, and it's not that pratical to carry around with me.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on April 26, 2007, 04:39:24 AM
Unless I totally misunderstand what happened I think that Lightbold ought to have an on screen scene of giving over all of his breaths and life for Suseborn.  Maybe with Llarimar crying out or something.  It is more sad to me that Lightbold had no on-screen death [especially with a spectacular sacrifice like that] than that he died. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on April 26, 2007, 05:21:46 AM
I do have to agree there.

So, on the second do we get the first chapter of the sequal?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 26, 2007, 05:27:39 AM
Um...there's one more full chapter left, then the epilogue...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on April 26, 2007, 06:29:56 AM
Actually I think it works - the whole Lightsong offscreen death thing - I mean, I would love some kind of aftermath, or last words, or something, but we all know what is about to happen, as opposed to Vivenna, who might still be alive; we don't know.

It seems to me that the God-King can command life into things because he gets more than that one breath a week. There is a command to give up your breath, then there are the commands to awaken, but they don't necessarily require the same amount of breath. It also seems like he has even more than he ever had before (which was an insane amount), like the breath from Lightsong was more than a single breath's worth. Pretty cool.

The question remains, with Sus being a Returned, will he have to keep sucking breath from others, or did Lightsong's breath do even more than just give him his tongue back?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on April 26, 2007, 02:21:36 PM
That's a really good point, Qarlin, about Lightsong and Susebron that I hadn't thought of.  If Lightsong's miracle was something like "heal him," then would not just his tongue but also his need for Breath be "healed," and his inability to use just a portion of his Breath be eased?  (If indeed he is a Returned; not being one would also solve the problem.)

I always figured that the one-use-of-Breath thing was a property of being Returned, not a question of limited amount of Breath.  That is, a Returned God could not just go out and purchase an extra 100 Breaths, and then use them to Awaken and Command.  But I have no evidence for this other than the fact that it never happened.

Not sure yet what I think about Lightsong...if he is the main "good" character to die then it might be best if he dies on-stage, since the "bad" Denth did and all the other "good" characters have died off-stage (Peprin) or without any detail (Tridees).  But we need to read the next two chapters to see what happens and how the pacing goes.

firstRainbowRose, we know that the Manywar started after one of the Five Scholars discovered a way to make Lifeless with only a single Breath, thus causing a military power imbalance in favor of Hallendren.  We know from just a few chapters ago that it was Denth's sister who made this discovery (thus she was one of the Five Scholars).  We know Vasher was a compatriot of Denth's sister also engaged in research into Breath (thus likely also one of the Five Scholars), and that he killed her around the time of the Manywar to stop her from arming the Lifeless with other sentient blades like Nightblood.  We know that possessing a large amount of Breath wards off the effects of aging.  So Vasher's age isn't meant to be a surprise at this point, I don't think.

The new bit of information in this chapter was that Vasher "ruled and started wars" -- makes me wonder if he was one of the people we've heard about already in connection with the Manywar...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: VegasDev on April 26, 2007, 08:46:58 PM
I have been reading the book but finally decided to comment on something that just kind of seemed weird even though it happens all the time in books, movies, TV, etc.

Bluefingers tells the Lifeless to take the king below to hold him awhile before killing him, ultimately leading him to the one person that can heal him and ruin all of their plans. Why didn't he just order the kings death right there, avoid any mistakes like the king escaping or being healed? Obviously this is a small ticky tack thing, but when these Pahn Kahl have been planning all this time, does it make sense that they would just 'send him below until the right time' instead of ensuring his demise?

The story wouldn't have to change much if any. Bluefingers can order the room full of lifeless to kill the king as he and the princess are leaving the room to go sacrifice her. Meanwhile, Vasher upon landing on the ground and retrieving his sword earlier is forced to rush through the tunnel to get back inside the palace, sees Lightsong and lets him go free, then continues to Denth. Lightsong can stumble upon the room full of lifeless just about to kill the God King, they turn to face the new threat and he gets stabbed or something trying to save Seb. While he is slowly dying he gets the vision from his past, his vision fades and he sees the kings open mouth and performs his sacrifice just in the nick of time. You don't exactly have to see him heal the king, you could come along in the final chapters and have his brother holding him, saying he truly was the greatest man he knew. He gave his life time and again.

Anyway, I hate to propose any changes to a very good story, but I thought it seemed a little strange.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on April 27, 2007, 05:29:04 PM
Questions still not answered:

Pahn in the beginning, who Vasher kills - same guy all the Pahn Kahl people like Bluefingers follow?

Who was the Second intruder when Vasher found the tunnels?

What did Vasher find in the tunnels, and why didn't it seem to matter to the story?

Why did Vasher use parts of him to awaken the straw men in the beginning (eyebrow hair) and no one does later?

How does Sus know how to speak? know the commands to awaken?

Maybe these will all be answered in the next chapter and epilogue, but if not, then I think they need to be addressed more.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on April 27, 2007, 06:37:07 PM
While you make a good point VegasDev, I have to wonder if Bluefingers knew anything about what was going on down in the tunnels. He may not have been aware that there was a live Returned down there, or that the Returned would discover Seb's problem and do anything about it. I agree with the original point, but I think that there are ways around it that are much less invasive than an overhaul to that part of the story, though you did make some good suggestions about how it could be done.

I like the way this is wrapping up. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on April 27, 2007, 06:50:54 PM
Who was the Second intruder when Vasher found the tunnels?

That one is pretty strongly hinted at -- the priest who was killed (after Vasher left him tied up) was killed with a dueling sword.  Which character a) might have been tailing Vasher and b) typically uses a dueling blade?

Edit (addition):

VegasDev, you make a good point -- it seemed like Susebron was brought down to the cell to wait "for the right time" for his execution, about 20 minutes passed, and then they took him out to kill.  Why then but not earlier?

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: amyface on April 29, 2007, 09:33:50 PM
Maybe they wanted to set up Sus's death scene like they were doing with Siri. If that is the case it should probably be stated. Maybe in the part where Bluefingers is telling Siri about her death scene...

I LOVED this chapter!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spink_Longfellow on April 30, 2007, 04:45:41 AM
I've really enjoyed reading this inbetween school-work and other fun books. When will 'WARBREAKER' go up for sale? Are you now thinking of a follow-up?

J
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 02, 2007, 06:18:44 PM
Chapter Fifty-eight (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-058-3.0.doc)

Second half of the climax. 

Thanks a ton for the comments on the previous chapter.  There was a lot of useful stuff there, and I can see I need to clean a few things up.  For me, a rough draft is less about the paragraph-by-paragrah roughness, and more about the inconsistencies and the like.  There will be loose threads, but I want them to be of the type I can deal with in the sequel, not ones that leave the reader confused about this book. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on May 03, 2007, 12:33:59 AM
Wow. And yet the destruction of the Lifeless armie doesn't show until the epilogue.

So he's Returned, and he figured out commands to just be alive again, instead? or he's really a normal man (Scholar) and figured out a command to give himself Returned Status?

Funny though, that gives both girls a love interest who's kind of dead. Well, yeah. Or how'd they get the first God-king again?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 03, 2007, 03:38:26 AM
Well, that was interesting.  It had seemed like you were hinting at Vasher's identity over the past few chapters, but I kept thinking "but according to the story Dust told, he was a Returned."  So this clears things up somewhat.  I like the idea of using commands on yourself, that's clever.

And I was sure something was up with those statues, but as the chapters passed without anything occurring I began to think I was just imagining things.

I'm curious whether the epilogue will cover the saving of Idris, or whether that's reserved for the sequel.  I guess we'll find out next week.

Issues?  I thought just finding Vivenna tied up in a closet was...not necessarily unreasonable, but it felt too easy and anticlimatic.  Also, at the beginning of the chapter Siri's hair is red just because she's displeased, and then a bit later Vivenna is thinking about how regal and controlled Siri is for keeping her hair black (which all seemed rather un-Siri like -- the reversal between her and Vivenna was a bit too forced).

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on May 03, 2007, 04:09:56 AM
I liked that... lots of laughter.  (I think I might have even cried a bit if I were to be reading this in a book and thus had all the emotions still raw, not week to to week, giving me time to think about everything.)

And you don't fail us with the twist.  Although, I'd almost drag it out a bit more.  Have someone explain for the girls what exactly is going on, and the fact that Vasher is Warbreaker... (Woah... weird to say.)  Great forshadowing with the statues too!

Man... I really, really hope you'll post the sequal so at least those of us who have read this one can read it... I don't want to have to wait for it to be published.  *cries at the thought*
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 03, 2007, 05:20:46 AM
Um...I don't know what to say about this. I feel kind of like an idiot. Maybe it's just that it's been so long since I read the beginning parts of the book, but a whole pile of stuff in the last couple of chapters just seemed to come out of nowhere.

I don't mean the bit about the statues. I had an idea that something was going to happen with the statues all along, and as soon as Vasher mentioned a secret army at the beginning of this chapter, I thought of the statues right away. So that made sense.

But...

Super Saiyan Vasher. What? I mean, uh, WHAT? Where'd that come from? Why'd he have to change form just to tell Susebron that the statues were a secret army? And assuming his new form gives him extra strength or something, why didn't he change form earlier and use the glowy-ness to beat up Denth before the Lifeless marched, and stop the war without having to unleash his "terrible tool"? (Or for that matter, change form during that final council, use the glowy-ness to make everyone else think he's a god, and then use his god-hood to go see Siri and the God King instead of sneaking into the palace and getting his butt captured?)

Susebron kneels to Vasher. Even though Vasher is some kind of historical figure, Susebron shouldn't know him, since Susebron is only sixty-ish years old. And he knows hardly any history, which was why Siri had to get Lightsong to hire a historian. Unless Susebron has been lying to Siri about his past the whole time, which doesn't bode well for their marriage.

Susebron is an awakener. This doesn't make sense on two levels: I thought the returned couldn't awaken stuff, and even if they could, when did Susebron learn the commands?  The priests sure wouldn't have taught him.... (Actually -- this is part of why I feel like an idiot, I guess -- I guess I still don't really get what Susebron is. Is he really a returned, or just a guy with a whole lot of breath?)

Scared of the lifeless. Since the Pahn Kahl have been defeated, the Lifeless army now has nobody commanding it. Which means it's now an army of forty thousand idiots. From what we know about lifeless, they can't plan, they can't communicate with each other, and they sure can't react to changing battlefield conditions, react to the enemy's strategies, and come up with new tactics. Their actions, in short, will be utterly predictable. With forewarning, any creative and guileful military captain should be able to take out that army by himself. (I thought of several ways to do this as I was reading this chapter, didn't you?)

My life for your tongue. Maybe it's clearer in version 3.0, but somehow I'd gotten the impression that the Returned's power was to turn someone else into a returned when they died, not to straight-up heal them. (Although straight-up healing does make some stuff from the earlier chapters make more sense.)

If you prick us do we not bleed? How were the returned kept unaware of the fact that they can be cut, hurt, and killed? It makes sense that the priests wouldn't have hurt them, and would have tried to keep them from harm. But surely the gods would have on occasion stubbed their toes, or cut themselves with their eating utensils, or bitten each other during bouts of rough sex. Or did I miss something that was done to Lightsong and Blushweaver when they were captured, in order to make them vulnerable?

Engage Nightblood mode. Vasher's power when he drew Nightblood wasn't too unexpected -- we always knew something crazy would happen. But I'd had the impression that the reason for not drawing Nightblood was that it made you go insane, not that it drained your breath. (And it did seem rather like engaging a super-power mode in a computer game.)

I can only give you all of my breaths at once. But I can store all the breaths I don't want to give you, transfer the rest, and then take the ones I stored back, which pretty much makes this restriction moot. Vivenna can't have been the first person to realize this. And that being the case, there doesn't seem to be much point in having that restriction in the magic system at all.

I suppose some of this stuff might get answered in the next chapter. And, except maybe for Super Saiyan Vasher, none of this stuff was really that big a deal, it's just that it kept adding up. 

But anyway. Definitely looking forward to the next chapter. Robots versus zombies!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on May 03, 2007, 05:31:30 AM
Er, I think the next chapter is a short epilogue, so I doubt there's much action.  :-\

SSJ Vasher: He became a Returned (or was one all along?), and they're all in SSJ form. But I don't understand why he didn't do it before and why he did it now. First I thought he took some of Susebron's breath (back) to do it, but on closer reading it seems not?

I also don't understand why Susebron & Vasher can awaken stuff, but no other Returned can.

What tactics for defeating Lifeless did you think of? Landslides? Breaking dams open?

I definitely did not ever read anything saying a Returned made someone else into a Returned. The power seemed to be malleable to the required situation.

The bleeding thing...I think they did know they could bleed, but they just weren't in touch with their mortality. Did any of them ever try to kill themselves?

Yeah, if you can limit the number of breaths you put into some cloth, then why not be able to limit the breaths you put into a person? But I guess you generally can't limit the amount of breath you put into a cloth...how much breath is taken from you depends on how powerful your command to the awakened cloth. And you can use all your breath except one to awaken, and the "my breath to yours" is all breath.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 03, 2007, 05:45:43 AM
But...but...they're fighting zombies! With giant robots! That's some kind of ultimate, uh, something! You can't just set something like that up and then not deliver....
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 03, 2007, 06:08:46 AM
Like I said, it's been a long time since I read the beginning parts of this book. I think I got the idea that returned create other returned when they die based on some comment about the returned always replenishing their numbers. (If a new returned is created each time one dies, then there would always be the same number of returned gods.)

Towards the end of the book, Vasher and Vivenna were routinely doing stuff like storing all but fifty of their breaths in a piece of cloth (in order to disguise their status as awakeners), without even having to awaken the cloth. It seemed like they could store any number of breaths they wanted.

Random, off-the-top-of-my-head strategies for defeating the lifeless--
Of course, landslides and dams would work too.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 03, 2007, 02:09:42 PM
Welcome back, DavidB -- you hadn't posted in a while.  I was wondering whether your deus ex machina warning lights hadn't been going crazy these past few chapters.  ;)

You can tell from my past comments that I had a lot of the same questions, especially about what a Returned can do, how much they know about their own abilities and weaknesses, and whether folks like Susebron actually are Returned.  I also wonder whether Vasher can survive (and for how long) in Returned form without an intake of Breath.

Only Brandon knows the answers but I did have a few impressions that may work towards answering a few of your other comments:

Vasher didn't know what the plan was and whether folks like Susebron were involved before his showdown with Denth, so going to them beforehand would have been problematic. He went into the Court of Gods only to try to save Siri, remember.  But beyond that, the thing with Vasher is clearly meant to be character-driven: if he declared who he was, people would expect him to rule, and based on past personal history with the Manywar he has no desire to rule, no confidence in his ability to lead (thus the whole loner thing), and was unwilling to give up the power of the statues to Hallendren given what happened with the Lifeless.  I kind of expect all this to be dealt with more explicitly in the epilogue, it's an epilogue-y sort of discussion.  Now, whether it all works for you is another question.  Certainly he seems to cave in to Vivenna rather easily; although hey, that's puppy love for you.

With Susebron kneeling to Vasher, there's the implication that Lightsong's miracle healed more than just Susebron's physical tongue...so if the healing included how to speak and knowledge of Awakening, it perhaps it also included enough historical/personal knowledge or awareness to recognize Vasher in his Returned form?  A bit of a stretch, I admit.

The book overall has something of a console RPG/anime feel to it, from the young women with funky hair colors to the giant "tentacles" of cloth at the end.  Super Power Nightblood Breath-Consuming Mode fits right into that milieu.  I think what we (and the book) are bumping into is that anime story logic and Western literary story logic sometimes clash, and we get different signals at different points regarding which the book is following.

I'd be curious to know what specific Command the Lifeless army was given.  They obviously didn't stop to kill all the Idrians in Hallendren so presumably they were told to go to a specific place and kill the Idrians there.  Just moving the Idrians someplace else would probably save them.

But...but...they're fighting zombies! With giant robots! That's some kind of ultimate, uh, something! You can't just set something like that up and then not deliver....

Maybe that's what the sequel is for?  Although the book is in a weird place right now, somewhat like Hobb's Assassin's Quest when the Elderlings are awoken...it feels like there should be about 3-5 more chapters in front of us, not just a short epilogue but not a whole sequel, either.

Either way, Brandon, you may want to change the bit in the first post in this thread where you talk about the book being a stand-alone.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Claye on May 03, 2007, 04:30:29 PM
HAHAHAHAHA!  HA!  I figured that something like this was going to happen!  Of course, the whole nightblood-thingie is a little weird I admit.... Anyway, what if Susebron really was just the stillborn baby? Then those breaths would have turned him into a kind o Returned, I suppose.... So maybe he really never needed all those breaths he got every week, and actually was a semi-returned semi-lifeless guy?! ???  Any other pepole's ideas? I'm wondering when the other Scholar will appear?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 03, 2007, 04:42:12 PM
I'm wondering when the other Scholar will appear?

The book doesn't say for sure, but my guess was that the five scholars were:
1. Vasher
2. Denth
3. Denth's sister
4. Arsteel
5. Pahn

If I'm right, then they're all dead except for Vasher.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vadia on May 03, 2007, 05:42:32 PM
Nice turnaround.  We all should have seen that Golem ex machina.  But couldn't have.

A few minor points which made reading difficult for me.
Quote
  Of course, that didn’t work for many of the stones they passed.  Though large chucks of the building were still black, a good half of it had been turned white.
   Not just the grey of normal Awakening.  They had been made a bone white.  And, becoming that white, they now reacted to his incredible BioChroma, splitting back into colors.  Like a circle, somehow, she thought.  Colorful, then white, then back to color.
The second paragraph is bulky with the first. 

I think You mean that the white glow and black don't, but the "though ..." sets me up for non-glowing as the major focus, so I was confused. 
Perhaps something like this:  of course . . . passed Though large chunks of the building were still colorless black, a good half of it had been turned white.  Not merely the grey etc.,

Quote
The breeze blew Siri’s hair--red, to show her displeasure--as they stood atop the palace. 
Breeze blew red?  Did the color change have something to do with wind before?

Quote
   
“I don’t want to see anyone,” Susebron said.  “Who are they?”
Seems too sudden a transition of emotions, from "GO AWAY," to "well now I'm curious, who is it?"

Maybe Split it up, or just get rid of "Who are they"

Quote
   Siri paused hesitantly.  Silly, she thought.  This is Vivenna.  I can trust her.
   She’d thought she could trust Bluefingers too.  Vivenna regarded her with a curious expression.
Just an odd set of juxtaposition, and maybe a mid paragraph focus change  (she, vivenna)

Quote
   It was a quick judgment.  She had gotten over chastising herself for making those, though she had learned to leave herself open to reinterpret. 

Sounds like she's chastising herself for making a quick judgement there, and I think you should say "reinterpret them." or similar statements.


   
Quote
“You have a group of rogue Lifeless,” Vasher said.  “You’ve lost control of them.”
   “I’m sorry, my lord,” the God King said.
   Vasher regarded him.  Then, he glanced at Vivenna.  She nodded her head.  “I trust him.”

This whole scene seems odd, sure I understood that Vasher is from the Manywars, but that he is accepted as a lord and it isn't helped by the stilted conversations IMNSHO here.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 03, 2007, 08:12:14 PM
This is all EXCELLENT feedback. 

Here's the thing about my books.  I tend to pile a lot into the endings, and so when I warn people a draft is rough, it doesn't usually have to do with things you can see on the micro-scale.  It has to do with the entire work as a whole, particularly foreshadowings and character arcs, which are the most subtle--and I think--difficult things to pull off.  Yet, worth it, if you can get it right.

I'm going to go ahead and break my rule of not responding too much to people.  Usually, I don't want to bias their opinions for later chapters--but since there's only one more of those, I figure I'll go ahead and mention some things to get reactions from you all, which will help me decide just how much I need to talk about and explain in the text. 

FIRST
I’m realizing that I need to give more explanations of the magic in this book.  I worry about overloading people, but from the questions, I’m realizing that I need a tad more. 

Susebron IS Returned.  What happens with Returned, actually, is that they are given ONE breath, but a breath given to them by God.  So, think of it as a ‘super breath’ which brings them back to life for a time. 

However (like Nightblood activating him powers) the ‘fuel’ it takes to keep a Returned going and grant their powers is breath.  They need one a week, otherwise they’ll ‘burn’ their one divine breath, which will kill them.  So, they need to be given an extra breath each week to keep them going.

They can’t use their ‘super breath’ for much because giving it away would kill them.  If they do decide to use it, it gets burned away, and in the process creates a healing miracle.

However, there’s nothing to stop you from giving that Returned extra breaths.  He or she would then be able to use those to awaken objects, just like regular Awakeners.  As long as he/she didn’t use the command that delivers them to other people, he/she would be just fine.  (For that command gives all your breath, including the single divine breath, which would leave the Returned dead.)

 By leaving Susebron with his tongue cut out, I wanted to imply that he COULD use all of those extra breaths.  I see, now, that I need to discuss it in the text and make a distinction in the reader’s mind between the breath he holds that makes him a Returned, and the other pile of breaths he holds which could be used for other things.  I don’t know if I want to get into the divine breath concept--that’s something I’d rather deal with in another book.  But, it’s important that the reader understand that he CAN use some of his breaths, should he get his tongue back.   

Reactions?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 03, 2007, 08:23:09 PM
Oh, and a few more responses.

SECOND
I wanted this book to feel. . .well, more light-hearted.  Anime-like is an okay description, as it has been used before.  My original thought for the story--the princesses who swap places--is a very fairy-tale idea, and the Lightsong scenes focused on banter almost to the point that (as my editor put it) the book becomes like the old screwball comedies. 

That isn’t to say I didn’t want depth of character.  However, I did intentionally write a book that would feel different from the Mistborn trilogy.   

THIRD
Stopping the Lifeless army is something else I need to deal with, I realize.  (Meaning DavidB’s comments.) 

I’m several minds how to deal with this.  First off, Bluefingers did say that by sending the Lifeless without direction, they were hoping the things would get defeated, since that would--in his opinion--make the war effort last longer, as it would leave the Hallandren without many of their resources.  Likely, if Siri and company hadn’t stopped him, the Hallandren would have chosen to give those Lifeless support--if only to keep them alive in the war effort. 

As it stands, they COULD be defeated with some measure of ease.  However, the thing to realize about Lifeless (and this is the mistake I made in the text) is that they’re not simply automatons.  They have some measure of intelligence.  In the scene where Vivenna is run down by a group of them, they work together and coordinate their attacks.  You could, for instance, order a Lifeless to go fetch something for you, and it would be able to.  That’s what you gain by using a human body--some semblance of life and intelligence.

So, they wouldn’t be AS easy to defeat as one might think.  For an army, they move incredibly quick, and Idris just wouldn’t have much time to respond to the initial attack.  They’d have to wait until the Lifeless had taken out a few cities (perhaps even the capitol, which was the Lifeless goal) then trap them.  However, I imagine the army splitting up once it reaches Idris and making things difficult. 

And, Susebron and company would have trouble stopping them as well.  The speed issue is a big one to me.  Even with horses, it would be very tough to keep up with an army of tireless men who can move at a brisk jog without stopping to sleep.  Mix with that them having enough intelligence to get themselves out of an ambush, and enough resilience to take a rather large amount of punishment, and I think this army would be more difficult to crack than many would expect.

The task on me, however, is to get that across in the text. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 03, 2007, 08:41:28 PM
I think part of what make the lifeless seem weak is that they're, well, zombies. And everyone knows a dude with a chainsaw is an even match for ten thousand zombies.

The divine breaths thing solves some of the problems, but it still doesn't explain who taught Susebron how to awaken stuff. Vivenna had to practice and train herself before she could even use simple commands. (Unless returned have some kind of innate knowledge of awakening commands, but if they did, then there wouldn't be much need for scholars to research command phrases, would there?)

Also, it seems to me like it would be more internally consistent if awakened objects consumed breath, to make all of these breath-consuming powers in the last few chapters fit in better. So for example, if Vasher awakened a shirt and left it awakened and doing stuff for a day, then he might be down one-seventh of a breath when he took it back at the end of the day. (Of course, that mechanic requires it to be possible to transfer or awaken with portions of a breath, and if you could do that, then using the "putting the breaths you don't want to transfer into a cloth until after the transfer" thing, you could feed the returned by taking a tiny fraction of all the Halladren's breaths, instead of taking some people's entire breaths and turning them into drabs.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 03, 2007, 08:49:50 PM
Hum.  I like that suggestion, actually.  I think I'll use it.  Though, what I'll do is say that if you leave the breath in for too long, one of them vanishes.  If you can get them back quickly enough, however, there is no loss.  That gives a bit of a better explanation of why there aren't a lot of awakened objects doing things all over the place.  True, using the breath to make them would be initially expensive--but if you got a magic object that never winds down, then that might be worth the expense.

Oh, and on a previous comment, I'm planning to write into the scene where Vasher draws Nightblood more of an emotional struggle to keep Nightblood from taking control and causing mass destruction.  In the initial draft, I just figured that Vasher was too experienced to worry about that, but I think it will make the scene work better. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 03, 2007, 09:16:05 PM
It doesn't make sense that Nightblood could have caused much more destruction than it actually did, because Vasher used up almost all of his breath as it was.

Suggestion: If Nightblood drains all of Vasher's breaths, than it will also drain his life-force and he will die. Vasher knows that drawing Nightblood will cause him to go mad, and that he is not strong enough to fight it. So when he draws Nightblood, Vasher figures that he's dead already, but he can still use Nighblood's power to rescue Vivenna. Since Nightblood also likes Vivenna, he figures he can direct the madness well enough that he will be able to do that. But he still has to fight to keep on task, rather than wasting time on killing random priests and lifeless.

So Vasher fights his way to Vivenna, rather than going after Denth. Vivenna understands what he's done, but is able to talk him out of the madness the same way she did when she and Vasher rescued the little girl. (You may want to beef up that scene to better foreshadow this one.) Then, after Vivenna has gotten Vasher to stop killing stuff but before he manages to untie her, Denth shows up, and Vasher kills him the same way as is in the story now.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 03, 2007, 09:38:57 PM
But, it’s important that the reader understand that he CAN use some of his breaths, should he get his tongue back.

A lot of the confusion with Returned and Breath might be cleared up if you added a scene much earlier in the book where one of the Returned Gods does use Breath to Awaken, or even if you just have some of the Gods discussing it.  The problem now is that if they can, why don't they?  You could of course just write in that they do.  Or maybe it's considered gauche for a God to get extra Breath, given that their followers are giving up one a week already?  You could have Mercystar talking about getting some extra Breath for self-defense because she's scared after the break-in; or Lightsong saying he never carries extra Breath because his mind is too lazy to form the visualizations needed to Awaken; or some newer God actually doing Awakening while Allmother looks on unhappily and makes a snippy comment about how people will think Gods are just people with a lot of Breath, etc.

Basically it's just that because there's nothing in the text that indicates a Returned can use Breath, when one of them does it leads to the question of whether they really are Returned.

I like David's suggestion regarding Vasher, Nightblade and Vivenna a lot.  Even better if Vasher has to rescue her from Tonk Fah instead of just finding her in a closet.  I didn't mean the reference to anime to be a derogatory one, it's just that the level of seriousness and of suspension of disbelief required seems to vary wildly throughout the story.  It's hard to reconcile for example that the same people who lose control and torture Peprin to death just toss Vivenna unharmed into a closet after she damages their plans.  David's suggestion could not only add tension to the Nightblood aspect but also to the Vasher-Vivenna story -- if Vasher doesn't beat Denth, it would be clear, something bad will happen to Vivenna.

MattD

P.S. Edit: after one of the recent chapters ended, I had this charmingly funny image of this little piece of rope that was forever inching its way after Tonk Fah, through cities and forests and across deserts, over years and years, trying to fulfill its Command to grab him.  :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 03, 2007, 10:11:01 PM
It does offer something interesting to think about, but I'm just not convinced--personally--that Denth would simply kill Vivenna.  She's a princess of Idris, and a very valuable prisoner.  She's wiggled away from him a couple of times, true, but I still think it would be a bad idea to kill her.

Killing her gains you revenge, but not much else.  (She really hasn't interfered that much with what he's been doing.)

Keeping her gains you both a pawn to use against Vasher, a valuable prisoner for political and financial gain, and perhaps even some leverage against your employers.  It seems a fantastically BAD idea to just kill her. 

(Plus, remember, Peprin's death wasn't intentional.  He was being tortured to make sure he didn't know where Vivenna was, but Denth didn't really want him to die.  Not that Denth was broken up over it happening, but even still, there is that to remember.)

I make these arguments, by the way, to see how you respond.  I appreciate the suggestions, and I very well may take them.  I try to offer counter point so I can explore how people are feeling and see just where I need to revise and what I need to change. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 03, 2007, 10:35:52 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that either my suggestion or Matt's additions to it actually require Denth to be about to kill Vivenna. Though I suppose it might add something if he were planning to, say, cut her ears off and send them to her father.

It might work better to state Denth's reasons for not killing Vivenna in the story. For example, Tonk Fah could want to kill her (since she almost strangled him), but Denth could stop him and persuade him to use her as a hostage first (promising Tonk Fah that he could kill her later).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 04, 2007, 12:18:06 AM
That's a very good idea.  (The second one.)  Clears things up a bit. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 04, 2007, 12:47:00 AM
I think you did a good job in the earlier chapter, where Vasher and Denth talk, of subtly showing that Denth has at least the tiniest bit of affection for Vivenna, or perhaps shame at having used her -- some less mercenary remnant of the man he used to be.  For that and the practical matters you mention, I never thought he'd just kill her (though she had just set Vasher free, who Denth had been set on getting revenge on, so he might be a little irrational at that moment).  But the point is, anything he would find to do with her would most likely be dangerous for her -- so it would heighten the tension to actually give a glimpse of that danger.  The leader telling the henchman "you can have her later" is a bit of a cliché, though it does fit the characters.  There are a lot of ways you could handle it; I was picturing something like Vasher coming upon Tonk Fah and some mercs leading Vivenna to some unspecified holding area, while Tonk talked about the ways they had tortured Peprin...

Or if Denth was going to use her against Vasher, he'd do so.

Etc.

But just my $.02,

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on May 04, 2007, 01:35:35 AM
Okay, so I know everyone's talk about Sub being able to use breaths... but my question is this:  Will he still need to get breaths from people in order to live, or will his devine breath fade after a week if he doesn't turn someone into a drab?

Also, I thought once you gave all of your breaths away you couldn't get more.  It seems though that Vasher and Viv are giving theirs away and getting more later all the time.  If you can do that, why don't most drabs do that?  (I could see that being a really big zelot type thing, or something the rich do to prove themselves even more.  "I give my breaths away for the god I care about most, buy more, and then go back the next week.  I become important because I'm the main sorce of breaths, which makes me seem like even more of an import person on top of all my money.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 04, 2007, 03:36:43 AM
Okay, so I know everyone's talk about Sub being able to use breaths... but my question is this:  Will he still need to get breaths from people in order to live, or will his devine breath fade after a week if he doesn't turn someone into a drab?

Susebron never actually needed to get additional Breaths from anyone, because he received the enormous store of Breaths that had been passed down (from Vasher originally) through the previous God Kings.  With that as a surplus he'd have no need for further infusions.  The priests probably kept up the ritual as a matter of tradition, a good way of keeping people respectful of their God King.

Also, I thought once you gave all of your breaths away you couldn't get more.  It seems though that Vasher and Viv are giving theirs away and getting more later all the time.  If you can do that, why don't most drabs do that?

Cost, I imagine -- drabs have sold their Breath for money, and most probably did so because they needed the money for other things.  Vasher and Vivenna aren't getting new Breaths, BTW, they're just putting Breaths into objects like their clothes and then retrieving those same Breaths when needed.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 04, 2007, 03:43:35 AM
Vasher, apparently, can switch between a returned form and a "normal" form in which he doesn't need a regular intake of breath. Maybe he'll teach Susebron and the other gods to do that too, so that they only need to get breaths from other people if they use their returned forms a lot.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 08, 2007, 10:28:42 PM
Actually, Vasher DOES need a breath each week, just like regular Returned.  I'm planning to write into the book Vivenna noticing that he'd down one breath a couple of times.  In my original draft, I wasn't sure if I wanted an Awakener to be able to see with that much precision, but I lilke that this might offer some foreshadowing. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 09, 2007, 01:02:37 AM
So a Returned needs a new Breath each week, even if they have a large store of Breath already?

Just trying to make sure I understand...

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 09, 2007, 01:15:28 AM
No, and I'll make this more clear.

Just like Nightblood feeds off of Breath, a Returned feeds off of Breath.  They need about one a week, he needs about one every second.

So, if you have a store of Breath and are Returned, then one will simply be consumed every week.  The breath that makes you a Returned is separate from breaths you take from other people.  You can't spend that one or feed off of it--if you do, you die.  You can take other breaths, however, and use them normally.

I'm not sure how much of this the characters themselves understand, and that will determine how much I include for the reader.  So, the God King has:

1 Super Breath
10,000 regular Breaths.  (One of which he consumes a week, but he gets given two a week, so his stockpile grows.) 

A regular returned only has 1 Super Breath.  They are fed one regular breath a week.  However, if they were to be given a couple hundred Breaths, they could use them for Awakening. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on May 09, 2007, 01:59:51 AM
Didn't Vasher sneak into Vivenna's room with zero breath? Also, I thought Vasher gave that little girl a breath by hiding all his breath in a cloth except one, then saying "my breath to yours," then taking his breath back in. That would leave him with zero breath for a moment, right?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 09, 2007, 06:55:55 PM
My impression of the scene with the little girl was that whatever Vasher did was simple, one whispered step, but you're right, he does seem to travel as a drab often for stealth purposes.  Maybe normal people can't sense the divine Breath?  It's probably rather different than the biological life force of normal BioChroma.

Thanks for the explanation, Brandon -- that's how I thought it worked based on what you wrote last week, but your comments about Vasher confused me temporarily.  Confusion resolved!

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 09, 2007, 09:44:02 PM
Chapter Fifty-nine (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerCh-059-3.0.doc)

Last chapter.  Mostly an epilogue.

About the above discussion, the thing is, it has been established that Returned CAN go for a long time without a breath.  Lightsong never has any breath save his one Returned breath.  So, Vasher would only need a breath to feed upon when his week is up.  The rest of the time he can go about without one.

The command he has, then, is one that will hide his single Returned breath from the world.  Does that simply seem too convenient?  If so, do you have any suggestions?  I need him to be Returned, but it not be obvious to those around him. 

Note: The full version of Warbreaker will be up soon.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on May 09, 2007, 11:06:19 PM
*claps*  I was giggling through the entire chappie/epilogue.  I really liked this.

I think that your explanation on the gods looking like they wanted is good enough.  Have him be around long enough to have realized that he can control it, and play with it until he realizes he could make himself seem like a normal person at will.

Also... will we get the next book too?  Please?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 09, 2007, 11:17:47 PM
Yes, you WILL be getting the next book.  I plan to begin work on it late this fall, and will start posting chapters much as I did with this one.  It will mark the end of the series, as I only intend this to be two books long. (It was going to be one when I started, but I realized that if I really wanted to tell Vasher's story, I'd have to do it after he had been outed as a good guy--which meant a second book.)

Vivenna is only about halfway through her character conflicts, and Vasher has barely touched on his.  Then there's Nightblood, who...yeah, we need another book to deal with him. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on May 09, 2007, 11:44:46 PM
So it seems that out of all the scholars, Vasher is the only one who went good, as it were. Denth wanted to, perhaps was at first...

Anyway, The question I have then, is does that make Vasher her Great great great great great great grandfather? or something?

So, he was a scholar before he was Returned. Did he return after he started the war then, or before? I think after, and he had someone who let him know at least something of his past, else how would he know the other scholars?

I think the hide your breath works, if there is a variation that allows you to hide your other breaths too, even if it hasn't been discovered yet.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 10, 2007, 12:18:08 AM
Some of the confusion with Vasher may just stem from the Command word he uses on himself: "Return."  It was ambiguous as to whether he is making himself a Returned, commanding his Returned status to return, etc.  If what he actually had been doing was hiding his divine Breath, just changing the word ("Reveal" or some synonym) might make things clearer.

I liked the epilogue...I think it's always better to leave things unsaid than to say too much.  I did think it could have used a little more meat to go with the witty banter, though.  To wrap things up, it might have been nice to read some combination (not necessarily all) of:

- Vivenna questions Vasher a little more...what has he been doing for the past few centuries, why did he leave Hallendren in the first place, why did he come back (why would he care if the Pahn Kahl plot succeeded), and why is he leaving now rather than sticking around to make sure things work out okay?

- Vasher and Susebron talk...given all the instructions Vasher apparently left the last time, he seems remarkably uncaring about the massive political upheaval he's leaving in his wake this time.  If the next book is going to take place in another kingdom, resolving the outstanding Hallendren/Idris issues seems important.

- Vivenna and Siri talk a little more...we've had dialogue where Vivenna realizes how Siri has changed, but Siri's realization of how much Vivenna has changed was only briefly touched on.  Plus if this is the conclusion of Siri's character arc, it would be good to have a little more closure with her.

(Also, one comment on the past two chapters: in the last chapter Siri was quite willing try to hold Susebron back from trying to save Idris, even if it cost Idris many lives; in this chapter, Vivenna is quite willing to go off adventuring without waiting to see if Idris will be saved, or doing anything to help.  Cutting the cord is a good thing, but this lack of caring about their homeland didn't feel quite right.)

Anyway, wow...I know you've been done with the story for a while, but congratulations!  And thank you so much for posting all the chapters online, it was very brave to subject your early drafts to all this scrutiny but I've found it both fascinating and useful, not to mention fun.  I think I'll pause for a few weeks to clear my head, then give the whole thing a re-read at once, to read it as a novel.  I'll also definitely be picking up the book when it's released in print.

Edits:

Anyway, The question I have then, is does that make Vasher her Great great great great great great grandfather? or something?
[...]
So, he was a scholar before he was Returned.

Vasher wasn't a member of the royal family -- he was called "the Usurper" after all.

I don't think it says he was a scholar before he was Returned;  he says he can't remember before he was Returned.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on May 10, 2007, 05:16:36 PM
But when Vivenna asked if that was his real name, from when he was a scholar, he said he no, but that he didn't remember, because he doesn't remember anything from before he became returned.

"The Usurper" ahh. But then who was her multi-grain -great grandfather? (Oops. Pun slip)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 10, 2007, 06:41:46 PM
The royal family were the ones descended from the first Returned, the ones who founded the kingdom of Hallendren hundreds of years before the Manywar.  That's who Vivenna is descended from.  The chapter with Dust the storyteller has the most complete overview of the history, but basically:

- Hallendren is founded by explorers who include the First Returned -- they become the royal family.
- Some time later, whoever Vasher was dies and Returns, and is given the name Warbreaker.
- He learns to change his shape, takes a normal human form, and naming himself Talaxin (sp?) teams up with some humans doing research into Breath.
- Their research gives Hallendren a lot of military power; the imbalance causes the Manywar.
- The royal family makes Vasher a general and gives him command of the Lifeless army.
- Vasher leads the armies against the neighboring countries -- Pahn Kahl, plus the two mentioned in this epilogue.  He's now called Strifelover.
- Then for some reason -- experiencing the horror of war, perhaps -- Vasher leads the armies back to Hallendren and seizes power from the royal family in order to end the war.  The royal family escapes to the hills and founds the kingdom of Idris.  They call him Klad the Usurper.
- Vasher forces the other countries to submit to Hallendren or he'll release the near-indestructible statues on them.  He is hailed as Peacegiver by the Hallendren for ending the conflict.  Not wanting to rule, Vasher sets up a new Hallendren religion/government. 
- Vasher goes off and does other things for a few hundred years, until the start of this story.

I think Vasher has more names than Aragorn!  ;)

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: EUOL on May 10, 2007, 08:33:30 PM
That's a pretty solid timeline.  Well done.

One thing I've been toying with for a time now is getting rid of the name 'Peacegiver' and making that 'Warbreaker' from the get-go.  So, when people speak of the old Returned who ended the Manywar, they'd talk about Warbreaker. 

I didn't do this in the original draft because I was afraid that naming the book Warbreaker, then having Warbreaker get mentioned so often, would be too much of a clue that he was going to show up somewhere.  Yet, the only place I was able to fit the name in was in the epilogue, and it feels tacked on there to me.  I don't like naming a book after something that gets mentioned so off-handedly.

What do people think?  Would this have been too much of a hint to you as to Vasher's real nature?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dreamking47 on May 10, 2007, 10:44:40 PM
Thanks.  I wasn't quite sure how the Five Scholars came to be, so guessed a bit there, but that sounds like something you could easily address in the next book.  That is, did the others know Vasher was a Returned at the time?  I was guessing not, just because Jewels recognizes his normal human form as "Tax," but Denth (now, at least) clearly knows who he really is.  Although that makes me wonder, if Vasher can change his shape, why keep a recognizable face?

Re: the title, the good thing about "Warbreaker" is that it isn't obviously a Returned name, so I remember seeing many people here speculate whether the "warbreaker" would be Siri, Vivenna, etc.  As soon as we know it is the name of a Returned from the past, the list of candidates does shrink dramatically (and the sense that history will repeat itself increases).  I can't say I would have guessed, but I do think your original instinct was most likely right.

Given that Denth does know who Vasher is, you could have Denth tauntingly call him "Warbreaker" while torturing him, or during one of their fight scenes (keeping Vasher's explanation of the name for the epilogue as now).  That would save the first mention until the end, but not the very end.

MattD
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: The Lost One on May 11, 2007, 03:13:19 AM
Keep the name 'Peacegiver' and don't mention the name 'Warbreaker' until the last chapter, as written. The fact that the plot is based around the expectation that war will break out and the main characters are trying to prevent or accelerate the war is sufficient to support the book's title. The name 'Warbreaker' is mentioned off-handedly at the end, but it didn't really bother me because it was at the end of the book.

I was a little troubled by how quickly things got wrapped-up in the end. Vasher almost casually handing over his army to defeat the marching lifeless seemed too easy. Why can't Vasher simple use his army without handing them over the Suseborn. Of course, we are left to presume that a stone army will catch and defeat the lifeless army. I would have preferred more of a struggle towards the end, giving more of a sense that no one is all powerful and can simply say the magic words and problem is solved.  Maybe a sene where it looks like Vasher has lost his mind as he talks to the statutes in his futile attempt awaken them (thus given a motive to hand them over to Suseborn) and them something more than Vashers statement that his army should defeat the lifeless, like a short battle seen with he lifeless being victorious but providing enough time for the characters to enact their final plans. But then again, the book needs to end before it gets too long.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on May 11, 2007, 09:19:35 PM
I thought at one point SOMEONE meantions Warbreaker in regards to being the end of the war, because I remember thinking "OH!  So that's why the book is titled what it is.  Hm... I wonder who this person was?"  If not, you could easily just have the story teller say something along the lines of "The war was ended by Warbreaker, also called Peacegiver, also called many other things long since forgotten" (which would be a small hint towards Vasher since he does go by many names, and we see that quite oftan.)

As for the fighting, I just figured we'd see a lot more of it and how the fight between the statues and the lifeless in the next book.  *shrug*  Actually, I thought the ending was a great set-up for that (just like with Mistborn it gives enough closure to not leave you dying for the next one, but at the same time you can see how another one would fit, and can't wait for it.).  I mean, yes, more of the book with be with Vasher and Viv fighting the final Scholar, but that doesn't mean that Viv can't talk with her sister and find out what's going on, and thus we would know (because despite her current carefree manor, I do believe she would check in and make sure everyone was fine.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DavidB on May 12, 2007, 12:57:43 AM
Regarding Vasher hiding his divine breath from the world: it occurs to me that when Vasher wants to hide the fact that he's an awakener, he hides his breaths by storing them in a cloth or something. So it makes the most sense (to me) that Vasher should have an amulet or a ring or something like that in which he stores his divine breath; the trick then would be for him to find a way to get the divine breath to sustain him even when it's stored in the amulet. Then, in order for him to "return", he'd just have to draw the divine breath back into himself.

I agree that there ought to be a scene between Vivenna and Siri before the end of the book, for the reasons Rose and Matt have already mentioned.

Quote
Theyd recovered Vashers cloak, shirt, and trousers--the ones that Denth had originally taken from him.  There had been enough Breath in those to split among the two of them and get them each to the Second Heightening.

Heh. We're not even pretending anymore that the "you can only give other people all your breath at the same time" rule is hard to circumvent, are we?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on May 12, 2007, 03:32:28 AM
As I recall, Wasn't it Denth who mentioned that rule in the first place? And while it's true, I think he was discouraging her from getting rid of that much breath, which he was probably going to take later on, anyway.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spink_Longfellow on May 17, 2007, 01:19:47 AM
Excellent! I'm glad there will be another book. I feel there is much more story to be told. I would really like to see Vasher's character more developed and possibly see how he has become as jaded as he is. Susebron's knowledge is hopefully a little more than just his childhood book. Maybe enveloped in it's 'stories' are more than vague truths? Having had this resource of being able to watch this story unfold has helped me to get past some of the roadstops on the way to my finished book.

THANKS!!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: qirien on June 21, 2007, 12:30:55 AM
I'm enjoying the book so far!  I downloaded it on my palm pilot so I can read it whenever I get a minute (I'd be happy to send post the palm version if you would like).

Would you like me to report typos, or is that something you don't even worry about until much later drafts?

Thanks for providing it for download!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Lightningfall on July 11, 2007, 06:05:48 PM
I just finished Warbreaker.  Its an awesome book.  I absolutely loved it.  I do have a couple of questions though.  They may have been answered already and if thats the case feel free to refer me to the proper place as I haven't yet had time to read through the back posts yet.
First, has Vasher found a way around needing a breath every week as a Returned? 
Next, when Vivenna  was practicing her Awakening she tried to use a tree for color but was unable to, I had assumed that currently living things could not be used, and yet Vasher was able to use the grass in the fight in the Court of the Gods.  Could anyone shed any light on that for me? 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: fanak on July 27, 2007, 02:37:36 AM

What do people think?  Would this have been too much of a hint to you as to Vasher's real nature?
I don't think that's the case, I didn't even assume Vasher was awakened until the end. I thought he was probably some other form of awakened, not like the gods.

I think mentioning it was Warbreaker earlier would be fine, given the fact that all awakened have compound names like that, I simply assumed Warbreaker was an awakened.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Qarlin on July 29, 2007, 12:48:35 AM
I'm having a thought here; What about Vasher's dreams? Returned have dreams that predict the future. Even if those dreams fly fast like dreams are want to do, Vasher would probably remember some snatches of them, even if it was just Dejavu like.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: miss-bee on August 13, 2007, 02:54:17 PM
Im all new to this. Happened to stumble on this site, just a few hours ago.
This morning I went to my local book-shop in search for new books and authors to still my hunger for good fantasy reading. Well I saw a book by Mr. Sanderson and liked the synopsis. The only thing which stoped me from buying it, ... it was only available in my mother-tongue.  On the inside of the book I discovered that it was translated into German from its english version. I do like to read the original rather than the translated one.
So I went home, started up my Computer to search for Mr. Sandersons work. First I opened his Web-Site and was happy to  find some sample chapters and started reading. Finally I made it through to the Free Ebook, which seems to be in the last stages before it goes into publishing. I have downloaded the 3.5 Draft and Im excited to get into the world of Warbreaker. Ill let you know how I like it and give you my comments if you still want to hear them.

Best regards from Germany
miss-bee
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Kristal on August 16, 2007, 04:22:10 PM
I just wanted to drop in and say Hi.  After reading Elantris, I became a fan of your writing right away.  It took me a while to get to reading Warbreaker, as I am in the middle of writing a novel myself, but I have now, and I must say, I enjoyed it very well.

 ;D

I don't know if this is mentioned anywhere else in this thread, but I wanted to poke my opinion in--as I like to do unfortunately--concerning the relationship between Siri and Suesbron (I love his name and character, by the way).  I must say, as a woman, I was a little disappointed in their first union.   ;D  I'm not necessarily into graphic sex, by any means, but the fact that he wasn't used to being touched and was so innocent, I was looking forward to his reaction when she touched him intimately  for the first time, and he finally figured out what she was doing on the bed all those weeks.

Their relationship was my favorite part of the book, by the way. 

Another great plot.  I love the way you twist and weave the stories you do, interweaving everything until the right moment.

On a side note:  I smiled when you described how she didn't notice the size between them so much anymore.  My husband is 6' 7' and I am 5' 6', so I knew exactly how she felt.    ;D   
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Sybyll on October 16, 2007, 10:09:56 PM
This was a comment made awhile ago by David about the sword, and having it drain the life force of Vasher, however, when I read it I felt like the sword would instead of draining lifeforce, if it could not consume breaths it woudl turn on it's master, because he/she could no longer feed the swords necessity.  And, the sword can do strange stuff to people, apparently steal their color (perhaps to keep itself awakened). I wonder if the sword has an affinity for returned becuase it was made by someone who was returned? or just because they have a tendency to have alot of breaths. I'm not sure if the sword said he only like Vivenna when she had alot of breath....maybe i'll have to go back through and track that.  It will be interesting to see how the character of the sword is developed in the next book.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: achren99 on October 25, 2007, 07:45:06 PM
I completely agree with Kristal.  Suesbron and Siri's romance was my favorite part of the book (even though I loved all of it).  I would even count how many pages it would be until I got to read about them again.  I also found it a bit anticlimactic that you didn't get his point of view on sex -- and you didn't hear that much from them romantically after that.  (I enjoyed the end of the book, but again...their relationship was my favorite part of the book so it was sad when the end kind of skipped over it).

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: AlefBet on November 13, 2007, 12:34:59 PM
Wow.  Quite the thread here.

I just finished Warbreaker 3.5 and I'm hoping this is an okay place to put feedback.  I also didn't take the time to read the 40+ pages of comments, so maybe some of what I say will be redundant.

I like the book a lot, although it's obvious it's still a draft.  I won't comment on the typos and small things like wrong name used or other little inconsistencies (although I work for BYU so if Brandon Sanderson wants, I'd be pleased to print out and bring by a marked copy with that stuff).

The big picture things that I think don't quite come together and leave distracting questions for me:

* Why is the God King different in being able to father children?  Similarly, how can the God King Awaken when none of the other Returned can?  The text leaves me with a few possibilities.  Maybe he really is magically distinct from the other Returned (although the book seemed to break down most other aspects of his theology).  Maybe he's not really a Returned, and the priests selected him because he's one of the rare humans that will grow to be physically similar to the Returned.  (He's given BioChroma often enough to never feel the weakness of approaching a week long interval without it, so he might not realize that he doesn't really need it to survive. . . .)  Or maybe the priests know Commands or some other aspect of the BioChroma system that allows him to do these things?  I think this is important considering that Siri takes it for granted that the God King could awaken her clothes and strangle her with them if he wanted, but the reader is otherwise given the impression that Returned can only use their BioChroma to obtain their Heightenings and perform one last miracle.

* Similar to this, how are Denth and Vasher able to Awaken, although they're Returned?  And how can they survive during the short periods when they're devoid of Breath?

* Have Denth and Vasher been purchasing at least one Breath each week over the centuries of their life?  If so, why haven't they become conspicuous from their auras?  Do Returned need one new Breath a week, or is it enough that the Breath gets passed around?  E.g. can a Returned do a "Breath swap" with another Returned and they both get their needed strength for the next week?  If a Returned gets ten Breaths one week, is there a way for him/her to use them over time to cover ten weeks?  (That last isn't really important to answer in the book, but I feel like a reader could answer it if they understood the other parts.)

* What happens to Siri and the God King?  Do they reestablish the government?  Are there changes in it now that the God King is no longer a mute puppet?  I think the reader is left a little bit hanging here at the end.  (Not that this is the first time --- I've read and loved Elantris, too.)

* I'm left wondering the proportion in land size and population between Hallandren and Idris.  At various times, I was thinking that it was 1:1 or 100:1 (in both land and people).  When whoever does the map thing gets done, that will probably clarify that, but it might be worthwhile to answer in the text.  (Maybe it was and I missed it. . . .)

Of course, a magic system doesn't have to be fully explained to work.  It doesn't matter that the reader is given all the rules so long as there are rules and they are followed.  But the things I mentioned seem to point to inconsistencies.  The explanations (of which there could be several) ought to at least be hinted at (or hinted at more strongly), or the reader (at least in my case) will be expending more effort trying to explain them to themselves, which will distract them from the plot.

Here are things I think worked really well:

* The characters were deep.  Maybe not the deepest I've ever read (some of the classics have "annoyingly deep" characters), but they're engaging, dynamic, and for the most part likable.  Dynamic is very important to me, and I feel like the changes these characters went through weren't just those changes that everyone likes to see (naive character becomes skilled and does great things, sheltered character learns about other viewpoints, etc.).  Those changes did happen, but the changes felt natural and you could see why they went the way they did.

* The surprises work well, I think, for the most part.  With the mercenaries and Vasher and the intrigues.  I really believe you can go back and read the Denth chapters and see how he was the bad guy all along.  Vasher is kept suitably ambiguous so that he can be colored by whoever is talking about him, until Vivenna starts to get the whole picture.  The factions in the Palace complex all have their own aims, so that the reader never can tell for sure who is an ally and who isn't.

* The relationships with the Princesses (Siri and Susebron, Vivenna and Denth/Tonk Fah and then Vasher) are developed well and very engaging.  I'm also left hungry for more scenes between Siri and Susebron, and between Vivenna and Vasher.  They work so well that I kind of want to stay there a while longer, but the book must go on. . . .  I will mention that I think the Peprin/Vivenna relationship doesn't really come together.  I feel that they are friends/acquaintances, but the only reason to me that they might be anything more is that the book asserts so.  But the S/S relationship is very endearing and feels deep (it feels like it's given more time in the text then it actually is, I think) and the V/V relationship is an effective counterpoint, not sweet or poignant so much as challenging and professional, yet still a bonding.  (Convenient initials, there :) .)

One detail that I'd tweak:

When Vasher explains the different types of entities created from Breath, he starts off mentioning that there are four different kinds.  Obviously that's a mistake, because a page or two later, Vivenna makes an intuitive jump that there should be four kinds of entities, two sentient and two not, two reanimated and two not.  (To add to that, this intuitive jump makes Vasher uncomfortable when he set it up in the first place.)  Clearly, Vasher will need to explain this without starting off with the mention of four entity types.  But . . . it also seems to me to be far too insightful for Vivenna to make that intuitive jump.  Why would her very first guided lesson in a magic system she's always shunned as heretical allow her to make such a significant jump?  I would expect the reasoning jump to at least happen in a different scene, once she's gotten used to dabbling and done some real experimenting or unguided thinking.

==========
Now, I'm starting to catch up on a few pages of the 40 page thread.  One comment:  I think four viewpoint characters is perfect.  I just finished "Winter's Heart" and it's really refreshing to be back down to the single digits on viewpoint characters.  But I would not throw out any of these viewpoints.  They're all essential to make the story work.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Swiggly on November 21, 2007, 06:39:18 PM
I just realized that I'm mentioned, for all the scant help I gave! Gee, Brandon. You just made my day. Even though I'm sick.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Insomnius on December 12, 2007, 04:26:21 PM
First time poster here - just signed up. Saw at wotmania.com that Brandon is writing the last installment of Wheel Of Time so I followed a couple of links and downloaded Warbreaker 3.5 and read it all in one day and I think Brandon is the right person to finish the series and as soon as my next paycheck I will be going to purchase the book.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Daarian on December 13, 2007, 01:05:54 AM
Wow, just finished up reading Warbreaker 3.0 (link for 3.5 didn't open) and I was blown away. Amazing job there. The last time I was captivated by a book like this I was picking up a WoT book that had just been released. I look forward to reading more.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Cosmic_AC on December 15, 2007, 10:57:17 PM
A few things that (to my knowledge) haven't been mentioned yet:

1. It seemed strange to me that you brought in the whole thing about the colorful flower being one of the big factors in the start of the War, but that was the only time you mentioned it.

2. It seems like normal Returned are unable to go without Breath for any length of time (as when Lightsong gives his breath to Sebby, then instantly becomes a dead Drab).  However, Vasher manages to go without Breath for extended periods of time.  This, I think, it a mechanic that really needs to be worked out and explained a bit more.  To be fair to the reader, I think you should at least have some indication that Returned can subsist on "stale" Breath - they're given one a week as a ritual thing, but they could be given four per month instead of one per week.

3. I also thought it was odd that although Vasher had significantly more Breath than Vivena, she was able to perform all the same Awakenings as Vasher - and with relative ease.  There is no sign that she practiced, or that it was much trouble at all for her to make the correct mental images.  Further, once she had Awakened said garments, she trusted them completely to do what she wanted.  In the course of what seemed like three days or so, she went from knowing nothing about Awakening to being about as skilled as Vasher.

4. It's unclear whether Vasher was the only God-Scholar or not.  It is revealed eventually that Denth, Shashara, and the Steel brothers were the other four Scholars, but the explanation for having them live so long could just be that they had a lot of Breath.  On the other hand, it's also possible that all five of them were Gods.  I'm not sure if this is intentional, but if not, you may want to clarify this point somewhere in the Epilogue as well.

5. A minor thing, but Denth's name (Varatridees) is just too similar to that of the God-King's priest (Tridees).  If this is supposed to show that they're related (as with Arsteel and Yesteel) then it's fine.  Otherwise it's a little odd.  I mean, these days there are a lot of people with similar names (I happen to know three different people named Karen and four different people named John) but in the old-days-fantasy setting everyone has his own name and there's rarely a need to bother with last names.  An uncanny similarity in the first name is enough to link characters (as shown when Vivenna "guesses" that Arsteel and Yesteel are brothers)  Also, there's a sort of subconscious-alerting similarity between "Tax" and "Talaxin" that provides a subliminal hint that Vasher was one of the Scholars as soon as the reader learns both names.  Not that I managed to figure it out until a few pages before he said so, but I was close because the hint was there.

6. Another thing that was sort of foreshadowed but not fulfilled was that each of the Scholars seemed to have a different field of study or special talent.  Denth/Varatridees' inhuman speed (he's like The Flash or Quicksilver or something) was shown repeatedly, as was Vasher's extensive knowledge of Awakening.  Shashara was obviously an expert at forging metals and would have been the one who further imbalanced the war by sharing her knowledge of how to imbue weapons.  Yesteel is, apparently, some sort of chemist.  But Arsteel is dead (so he's not likely to show any sort of power any time soon) and the only skill he's been shown to have is in dueling.  That seems suspiciously similar to Varatridees, though his ability could be some sort of variation on that (i.e. Vara had super-speed so Arsteel had super-strength or was just really good at dueling without any sort of special power).  And of course, now I'm assuming that the Five Scholars were really "special" and that they weren't just (very powerful) normal people who studied their field for so many centuries they just seemed inhuman.  Bah, I guess what I'm saying now is that I don't know what I'm saying.

7. The last apparent semi-inconsistency that occurred to me was that Nightblood was "programmed" to destroy evil, but he didn't know what evil was, but he had special evil-judging powers anyway, but they were activated by leeching breath, which is sort of "soul-sucking" like the One Ring, but Nightblood wasn't evil, but he was so innocent he did a lot of things that were apparently evil.  In short, it was odd that although Nightblood couldn't distinguish good and evil, he had the intrinsic ability to...distinguish good and evil.  That is, anyone who was "pure of heart" or "strong of mind" would not be tempted to draw Nightblood and would not go insane just from picking up the sheath.  I'm not really sure how else to explain it.  Sometimes I'm worse with words than Vasher.

EDIT: Some other things just occurred to me:

8. There's a lot of buildup about the conspiracy with the Priests.  Although it is revealed that Vasher is the one responsible for the tradition of muting the God-King, and Bluefingers is responsible for the instigation of the war between Idris and Hallandren, Tridees and his priests do seem to be manipulating the God-King somehow.  There must be some reason for their arrogance, secrecy, and deceit, but it is never shown.  In that moment when Siri realizes that it was Bluefingers pulling the strings all along, she (along with everyone else) seems to suddenly forget how sleazy Tridees is.  While most of the book is wrapped up nicely in a neat package by the end, this is one of the questions left hanging: If Tridees was really just trying to protect Siri and Seb, why did he act so evil?  And what was their plan for the God-King and his son?  In that climactic moment (okay, those four or five hundred climactic moments) that particular conspiracy is just forgotten and Siri suddenly trusts Tridees completely.  At least, that's what it looked like to me (and I may have to read it again because nobody else is commenting on these things.  Maybe the answers are obvious and there is no issue.)

9. There is also no explanation given for how the God-King passes down his Uberbreath without a tongue, or whose son ends up becoming the next King - Susebron's or someone else's.  I get the feeling it is someone else's son, though, since the other Returned cannot produce children, and the King hasn't been an exception so far.

10. Yet another mystery: why is it that when a Returned gives away its Uberbreath, the recipient gets completely healed instead of getting the Breath?

11. It seems like not all Breath is equal - a Returned's BioChroma alone (by what seem to be the rules of this magic system) is enough to achieve the Eighth Heightening, but fifty normal Breaths are required to achieve the First Heightening.  However, sick people seem to have "weak Breath" while healthy people have "strong Breath".  If that is the case, wouldn't it take, say, eighty "weak Breaths" to reach the First Heightening?  And since illness seems to be related to Breath, if you gave a sick person (one with weak Breath) a healthy Breath, would they be cured?  Why is it that Drab people don't get sick all the time?  (I would think that they would have a weaker immune system or something).  I guess all this is relatively minor, such as it is.  If you don't already have an explanation, you could probably get away with just saying that this aspect of BioChroma is still not understood well enough!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: kasper11 on December 17, 2007, 05:02:26 PM
First, let me say congrats on the WOT announcement. Besides getting to write the last book of a series that you are obviously a fan of, you couldn't ask for better publicity (I am sure that I am not the only one discovering your stuff as a result).

I really liked Warbreaker a lot. I think it was a great read, and I am planning on picking up MB right after the holidays (assuming nobody buys it for me, is already on my list).

There were a couple of things that I felt were left unanswered, maybe I missed something so if anyone wants to point it out, would be appreciated.

1) What was Vasher doing in the tunnel and who followed him? This was a major issue as it led to Lightsong's path to self-discovery and Mercystar giving up her lifeless, which helped accelerate things. What was he searching for? And who followed him?

2) Why did the priests need an heir at this time? Siri thinks that it is because a stilborn has already been returned, but it was months before they even began pretending that she was pregnant, which means the stillborn would have been returned for over a year before they could swap it for Siri's kid, so it was probably already too late.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: infamousdot on December 18, 2007, 07:26:23 AM
Erm. I didn't particularly feel like reading all 40-something pages to see if this has already been said, but...

I've read two paragraphs so far (the content is great!), and already I have a problem with how Vasher's thoughts are put forward.

When I write (and I do, just not where most people can see it), I always ended up having my character's thoughts in italics. Underline just seems a bit too jump-out-and-scream-in-your-face to me.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll comment more as I continue reading, but that's what I've got so far now.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on December 18, 2007, 08:09:52 AM
Underline is a standard manuscript format indication for "put this in italics when you make the actual book." (It's easier for a copy editor to notice underlines than italics.)

(If the underlines really bother you, you can do a find/replace in Microsoft Word and replace all underlining with italics.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Cosmic_AC on December 18, 2007, 08:26:38 AM
First, let me say congrats on the WOT announcement. Besides getting to write the last book of a series that you are obviously a fan of, you couldn't ask for better publicity (I am sure that I am not the only one discovering your stuff as a result).

I really liked Warbreaker a lot. I think it was a great read, and I am planning on picking up MB right after the holidays (assuming nobody buys it for me, is already on my list).

There were a couple of things that I felt were left unanswered, maybe I missed something so if anyone wants to point it out, would be appreciated.

1) What was Vasher doing in the tunnel and who followed him? This was a major issue as it led to Lightsong's path to self-discovery and Mercystar giving up her lifeless, which helped accelerate things. What was he searching for? And who followed him?

2) Why did the priests need an heir at this time? Siri thinks that it is because a stilborn has already been returned, but it was months before they even began pretending that she was pregnant, which means the stillborn would have been returned for over a year before they could swap it for Siri's kid, so it was probably already too late.

1) It seems like he was looking for that tunnel so he could expose the whole Pahn Kahl scheme early on.  it seems likely that the one who followed him and killed the servant was Denth or Tonk Fah.  However, this is just my guess because it's never really spelled out for the reader.  This is probably something that should be explained at least a little bit more in later editions.

2) Again, you're right: it's never explicitly stated why the whole heir thing is happening now.  All the reader has to go on is the endless guesses Siri and Susebron make, none of which are confirmed.  Although the Big Evil Conspiracy is revealed to be the work of some hundreds of Pahn Kahl agents, at least one faction of the priesthood is also somewhat shifty and their motives aren't as well explained.  It's a good thing there's still 6-9 more drafts to go through!  :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: infamousdot on December 18, 2007, 09:16:15 AM
Underline is a standard manuscript format indication for "put this in italics when you make the actual book." (It's easier for a copy editor to notice underlines than italics.)

(If the underlines really bother you, you can do a find/replace in Microsoft Word and replace all underlining with italics.)

See, you learn something new every day! I never would have known that otherwise.

I'll take your advice, though, and change it so I can read it without being distracted.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on December 18, 2007, 05:17:25 PM
Actually, I do the same thing. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: diabloblanco18 on December 19, 2007, 09:51:02 PM
I just finished reading Warbreaker yesterday, and since it's a work-in-progress, I figured I'd give my opinion.

Overall, I liked it well enough. The prose, as with both Mistborn books, is competent. Often uninspired, perhaps, but it gets the job done and rarely knocks me out of the story. The first few chapters could use some extra polish, though; they seem a bit stiff and halting compared to the rest.

The characters are done quite well. Above all else, they're distinctive. Their personalities come across loud and clear through their dialogue, enough that with many of them you could remove the stage directions in a dialogue and I'd still have a good idea of who was speaking. Most are developed well, and dynamically so. They change and adapt, though at times it seems like their development is a series of big personal revelations in this direction or that, one after another. Vivenna was this way, and I found myself often wishing that the changes would be more subtle. Less "I was this, now I'm this, and here's why" and more showing the change through related thoughts and actions.

The plot was a bit...confused. Most of the issues are holes in the worldbuilding that others have already pointed out. Siri's plotline was strong, if slow-moving, but the others meandered a bit. Lightsong was very entertaining, but his chapters were more exposition than anything else until he decided to solve the "mystery." Vivenna's POV was more eventful, but she changed her purpose and direction often enough to make things vague and confusing. It went from rescuing her sister to protecting her homeland to helping her impoverished people and so on. Given all these changes, I would have expected more conflict with Denth/Tonk Fah, as their goals never changed. That said, most of it did the job and kept me reading until the end.

Until the end...which is the one part I seriously disliked. I know that the statues were mentioned often and foreshadowed and whathaveyou, but I still feel that using them is a deus ex machina, and an ugly one at that. Two reasons:

1) The statues were mentioned, but there was never any intimation that they might be something more than expensive ornaments. No air of mystery to them. It seemed like you could have simply chosen anything and used it to solve the Lifeless problem.

2) It doesn't make sense with regards to the magic system. IIRC, part of the reason why Lifeless are so cheap to create is that they have a human form and were once alive. The statues are in human form, yes, but were never alive. In terms of breath cost, shouldn't they fall somewhere in between the cost of a regular Lifeless and that of Nightblood (the former filling both requirements, the latter filling neither)? Whether that's 50 or 100 or 500 breath, it's still a lot, and even with the God King's vast store of Breath (10-20K?) that would only net you about 400 statues at most. Far fewer than the thousands that were in the city, though I'm not sure as to just how effective they'd be against the Lifeless. Maybe even a few would be enough. Still, there should be some sort of explanation in the book for why the never-living status of stone isn't a problem.

Also, with regards to the end, the big reveal of Pahn Kahl as the conspiracy fell flat for me. There's very little impression given in the book as to why they would orchestrate something like that. Sure, they had their land stolen from them in the distant past, but if they're still so pissed off about that, why do they never show it? Little is shown of the world outside Hallandren, so having everything hinge on a power that does reside outside the city doesn't carry much weight.

The setting (as usual) I think is the book's strongest point. Obviously, it's still very unpolished and all the holes in the worldbuilding need to be patched. In terms of ideas, though? Quite impressive, even if the magic system doesn't allow for amazing kung-fu showdowns like in Mistborn. I particularly like the fact that the magic is much darker this time around, that it carries a price as well as moral complications. The one thing I'd suggest improving here is the world outside Hallandren. The city itself is vivid (heh) and well-drawn, but it almost seems to stand alone in the world. There's little mention of trade or foreign policy or anything of the sort that isn't about Idris.

A couple other thoughts:

Nightblood. The sword was originally created to "destroy evil," but from the beginning you pass it off as evil in its own right. It is evil, of course, but I'm sure Shashara didn't think so, when she created it. So why did she make the sword black? Why name it Nightblood, a rather evil-sounding name? It's better to create an impression of the sword as something noble, like it was intended, so that when it's shown to be something very, very different, the effect on the reader will be all the more powerful.

Vasher's explanation of Breath and BioChroma and everything in the beginning comes off rather poorly. Not only is it a rather glaring infodump, but it also makes the magic system seem like one from a video game. He says he needs this number of Breath to do this and that number to do that, and I'm thinking I could just switch Breath for mana and nothing would change. It does change, once you get to Lightsong at least, and are shown the price of that magic. But it would work better if you could somehow work that price (and show it, not just have Vasher think about it) into the prologue.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 24, 2007, 08:20:15 PM
I can't believe I have been away so long. Congratulations Brandon, on being chosen to do the final Wheel of Time book.

I finally downloaded the newest version of Warbreaker today, and have read the Author's Note and Prologue so far. It was a fabulous Christmas present to see my name in your notes :)

On that happy note, let me get to the Prologue. So far, I like the changes that were made. Still a couple of typos, but nothing that distracted me enough to pull me out of Vasher's beginning. I must admit it has been a very long time since I read the first version, but I recall some differences and the changes that have been made thus far are good ones, in my opinion. Hopefully, I will be able to find the time to read the rest of it over the holidays :D

 Thanks again for the opportunity to read and comment on a book  in progress, and I will be passing on the link to your website and the most current version.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Daarian on December 24, 2007, 09:08:34 PM
People's comments are so good and thorough.. I wish i could give advice like that.. yet I get to caught up in the story. Maybe when the next version comes out I can be a bit more critical.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 24, 2007, 09:55:03 PM
When he first started this we had a week in between chapters to read and discuss, and read again. ;) I like having it all at once now, but the first time through was a great way to keep us coming back :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: CUBAREY on December 26, 2007, 11:40:31 AM
I loved Warbreaker and only have a few comments at this point

First, the lesser gods (returned) can only use their breath in one shot. While Vasher and the King (he reanimates the stone warriors) are able to use breath in the same way as normal individuals reanimating several different objects at several different times. If this is going to be a stand-alone novel the inconsistency should be explained. If this is the first book in a series then obviously its a point that can be dealt with later.

Second, Jewel seems to have certain feelings for her Lifeless. She seems more concerned about him then her fellow mercenaries. Did they have a relationship of some type prior to his death?

Third, and this is a more general point. The War that establishes the government of the main country and the Mountain Kingdom is only three hundred years in the past. But, all of its details and reasons are now forgotten to all except maybe the priests and a few StoryTellers. Would not many more facts, legends and artifacts have survived among the commen people, especially in the Mountain Kingdom? Should not the war be set further back in time?

Fourth, and this is a minor point, when Lightsong first discovers his detective skills he ruminates over whether he was a "policeman" in his previous life. This is nit-picky but the term "policeman" has a decided modern feel to it. It was first used in the 19th century during the middle of the Industrial Age. When I saw it used by a character in a World set in a pre-indusrial world it was a bit jarring. Like I said its a bit nit-picky but its the kind of anomaly that drives me to distraction.

Fifth, the interplay between the King and Siri gets little attention after they consummate their marriage. Their interplay is one of the most interesting parts of the book, especially as it shows the King's mental and emotional awakening. It really needs to be paid more attention to.

Lastly, the character Denth(sp) is quite interesting and his mercenary philosophy actually fascinatingly deep. However, in the last couple of chapters he comes off as just being evil. Vasher's assassination of his sister and the swordsman scholar gives him good reason to hate and want to kill Vasher. But his character should seem to be much more morally gray then you depict him at the end of the book. Vasher was the Usurper, started a war, created stone warriors, set-up the religion/government of the main Kingdom but he was still still "good". Denth, shows philosophical insight he is not a mental cripple like his side-kick. In reality, is his becoming a mercenary all that more morally reprehensible then Vasher abandoning the main kingdom for three hundred years after organizing a repressive theocracy ? Use Denth as the "bad" guy but give him a little more credit. During the duel with Vasher have them dispute their philosophies. Make it clear that both are much more "gray" then either black or white.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Feedback
Post by: platypuschutney on December 28, 2007, 03:42:08 PM
Great book overall! Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I had one issue I wanted to point out:

The terms "BioChroma" and "BioChromatic" were jarring to me and knocked me a little bit out of the fantasy world that the book otherwise submerged me into. In particular, the double capitalization evokes a science fiction or clandestine military feel, which is definitely not where this book is going. Even the prefix "bio" is a little bit modern/sci-fi.

I'd at least use "biochroma" instead. If the capitalization was to keep the elements of the term clear (huh? bioc-hroma? biochro-ma?), then you could maybe use another more classical-era prefix like poly- or omni-.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: CUBAREY on December 29, 2007, 10:25:54 AM
BioChroma

Bio=life, Chroma=color

Where's the problem?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on December 29, 2007, 10:41:20 AM
I am to Chapter 24 now. So far, I like it. Some proofreading and editing problems, but that is to be expected in a rough draft.

I am reading about 10-15 chapters a day, so I hope to be done with it soon. I will probably re-read right away to get a more clear picture of what I want to say, I have a tendency to read things I want to get to the end of soon, very quickly. Doing that I miss a bit, and tend to take my time on the second read.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Asundar on December 31, 2007, 07:40:25 PM
I just finished the Warbreaker book. Excellent piece of writing, however I do agree with the poster a couple posts up in that the term "BioChroma" was a bit off kilter for the fantasy world being portrayed here. I didn't like the magic system until the very end, to be honest. The explanation of it (especially the 4 types of Biochromatic entities) could also have been introduced earlier. Manyof the "abilities" that Vasher uses (such as enhanced fingers and feet) could be expanded upon; I liked that they reminded me in a sense of an exoskeleton.

Other than that, the characters were excellent and their growth and interactions were well explained. I would suggest maybe spending more time on Vivenna's "fall from grace". The revellation at the end of Llarimar and Lightsong's relationship was spectacular. That scene made me cry.

Can't wait to get this one in hardcover. Thanks again Brandon.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Krustmonkey on January 03, 2008, 07:16:45 AM
I'm sure you get a few of these kinds of posts a week, but I'd like to take a moment to thank you for writing such a fantastic bunch of novels!   I'm a convert from RJ and was directed to your site from dragonmount.  I've just recently finished Warbreaker (which was faboo by the way!) and was so impressed a few chapters in I ran to my nearest bookshop and got a few of your other books. I wish you all the best in your future writing endeavours and hope to see this on the shelves soon!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Jhaeli on January 04, 2008, 03:56:43 PM
I'm not sure how closely you read this thread anymore, but I wanted to point out a few things that I've noticed so far!

I'm at Chapter Twenty-Nine, haven't finished the book, but I'd like to comment on my initial impression. [Spoiler Warning to those who haven't read up to this point yet!]

- I really like how you foreshadowed the God King. In fact, I think he's gotten to be one of my favourite characters. Because of him (and her!), Siri's chapters are very interesting and I always look forward to them. (More on this in a bit.)

- I love the magic system. It can be a bit confusing at first, but I got into it quickly. I did notice that we jump right into it in the prologue, which is a bit of a contrast to the way readers are eased into the magic systems in both Elantris and Mistborn.

- I like Vivenna as a character, but her chapters have been rather slow to this point. I don't mind reading about her, but I find myself wanting to get through them to read more about Siri; I personally feel the action needs to pick up in her chapters without taking away the character development in there already. Or to clarify, her chapters need something to hook the reader as strongly as Siri's at this point. At the same time, I really like the juxtaposition between Vivenna and Siri - in the start, Siri feels so out of place and Vivenna comes across as very poised and perfect. Now, partway through the book, Siri is settling in rather well while Vivenna is feeling very out of place. It also makes me think that maybe Vivenna would have been much too stiff to actually be Susebron's wife in the same way Siri has adapted to it.

- I know you wanted to do something with living Gods; I've been interested in reading about them since Elantris. However, near the beginning where you first introduce Lightsong and the Returned, there needs to be something to make the reader feel like they're actual Gods, not just overly pampered nobles with magic powers. I didn't find myself quite convinced of their Divinity, even if they are intended to be more 'human' than most Gods. One way to do so would be to add in a bit more about their foretelling ability; perhaps an example or even a small event? I almost thought it was something the Priests had convinced Lightsong he could do and he was just dreaming like anyone else; at the same time, with the hints that I've been getting in the later chapters, perhaps it's just being set up for later? Either way, that was my initial impression of the Returned. I think it might be useful to present them as Divinity, then let the character's progression through the book slowly peel that away.

I've been reading the book for enjoyment, not to analyse it, but those were some of my impressions as a reader. To sum it up, I'm really loving the book so far; I downloaded the book at work and have been reading it when I get a *cough* spare second. Then I find myself almost wanting to stay at work late just to keep reading - I think about it when I get home! So I'm completely hooked. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: elroyskimms on January 07, 2008, 06:02:55 PM
- I know you wanted to do something with living Gods; I've been interested in reading about them since Elantris. However, near the beginning where you first introduce Lightsong and the Returned, there needs to be something to make the reader feel like they're actual Gods, not just overly pampered nobles with magic powers. I didn't find myself quite convinced of their Divinity, even if they are intended to be more 'human' than most Gods.

I think once you get through the entire book, you will find that the description of the "gods" as just overly pampered nobles is intentional. I had your same thoughts as I read through the book. I think one of the best lines in the book on this subject is when Lightsong's priest says, "You are a God to me." (or something like that). That particular scene, in my opinion, nicely ties up the balance between pampered noble and divine being. I think you will find what you are looking for as you finish the entire story... trust me.

Overall, I thought it was an excellent book. I was hooked early on and if it became a series, would certainly read them all. I love the magic system, I think it is very unique. I liked that it was available to anyone... but at a price. For every Breath one person gains, someone else must have given it up. The "feeding" of the gods was a great way to make that point.

[SPOILER WARNING]

I would have liked more of an explanation in the end as to the God King's glossectomy (tongue removal... yes, I Googled it). Vasher briefly acknowledges the connection between himself and the God King's "injury" but there is still questions left unanswered that seemed important to this book but would probably not matter in a sequel. What happened to the previous God Kings? Did they really die saving others? The priests appear to be vindicated and yet still twisted somehow. Since they are mostly dead now, a sequel would probably not include any of this but I thought it critical to resolve in this story arc.

Also, considering the incredible twist of Vasher's true identity, I thought the final scene/epilogue was a bit over simplified. I thought the rising action and tension as the story came to a close was fantastic but the "Bonny and Clyde riding off into the sunset" closure didn't do justice to the severity of the situation.

I would have liked an explanation on how the God King, as a Returned, was able to use his Breath without dying... but I think that could easily be revealed in additional books. So although that is a thread that may need closing, I can understand why it wouldn't happen in this first book.

Overall, I loved it and look forward to reading more of your work. Like many noobs here, I found you after the announcement that you would complete Robert Jordan's final WOT book. Warbreaker was a great introduction for me and I will begin reading the Mistborn series in a couple of weeks.

-E
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Seraf on January 09, 2008, 04:10:01 AM
The whole thing about the Returned using Breath seemed rather obvious to me: Returned may keep as many Breath in their bodies as they wish, but they MUST be given one to consume in a week. As such, if they had 100 Breath, then they wouldn't technically reach new Heightnings since they are gods, but they CAN awaken. If they have those 100 breaths, then they would need to keep at least one of these in their bodies at all times. If they never Awakened, then they would use up those 100 Breaths over 100 weeks to continue living. That's how both Vasher and Susebron do it. What confused me more was that the Scholars are supposedly all Awakened or else had enough Breath to live 300 years. So how do they hide these required Breaths without dying?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: theoriginal_liza on January 14, 2008, 02:42:30 PM
I just finished reading version 3.5! i loved it and i can't wait for the final, polished version to come out.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: nahmorlah on January 19, 2008, 07:47:51 PM
Hey Brandon,

I am a new fan of yours (just bought the last book you have out that I didn't have) and I just finished reading Warbreaker. Let me preface this by saying it was really awesome, I ended up spending a day reading it without stopping,  just so I'd be done. However, there seems to be at least one major inconsistency (and I don't know if anyone else has touched on it since there are...42 pages of posts on this thread). Perhaps you can clarify.

So it seems to me that Vasher and Denth have a history, due to Vasher killing Shashara. Now Denth, obviously, was not the type to let that go. From what I could gather though or from what the book seems to indicate, this happened more than a few years ago. Now, Tonk Fah and Jewels have obviously met him a few times, and they seem to have intimate knowledge of Vasher's abilities. First, they state that he had never been able to beat Denth or Arsteel, and they also mention Nightblood. The "never been able to beat either of them" line on page 244 is telling, because it seems to either indicate that Vasher had fought them multiple times or he had had dealings with them. Now, for the entire time, Denth seems more upset about Arsteel being dead, than his sister. However, at the end, we see the depth of his feeling for the murder of his sister. Now, the question I have is, why, if Vasher had lost to Arsteel AND Denth multiple times and Vasher had already killed Shashara, did Denth let him live? Vasher not having killed Shashara doesn't seem to fit in the timeline since both Tonk-fah and Jewels state that Arsteel had been killed only a few months back. This has been the biggest question I have on the book.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: skibocastle on January 22, 2008, 06:23:35 PM
Brandon,

Thanks for making this available.  It's great to have access to a work in progress!  Again, I appreciate your accessibility to your fans.   :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spriggan on January 23, 2008, 12:34:29 AM
4.0 is available for download now.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Comfortable Madness on January 23, 2008, 05:53:11 PM
First of all I just wanted to say that, I think, Mr. Sanderson is a fantastic author. I was an enormous Robert Jordan fan and I believe that the Wheel of Time is the greatest series ever. However, with the unfortunate passing of James Rigney(Robert Jordan) and the decision by his wife to have Mr. Sanderson finish the series, I have found a new author that I enjoy very much. I have read Warbreaker version 3.0 which was awesome and have read the first installment of Mistborn which was equally fantastic. Now I will probably wait for the second installment to come out in paperback as I find it troublesome to read hardcovers. Although, I may just have to suck it up as I can't wait to see how Vin and the others put together the new empire. Ah...but I digress, what I would like to know is if anyone has read version 4.2 and if they have can they let me know if there are any really significant changes made....

Keep up the great work Mr. Brandon Sanderson!!!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spriggan on January 23, 2008, 08:36:19 PM
Here's my PDF version that's fully bookmarked for your reading convenience, this is different from what EUOL posted on his blog.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerFull4.pdf
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on January 23, 2008, 09:18:31 PM
Here's Brandon's note (from the document) on what changes were made:
Quote
Revisions done in Version 4.0

   This draft was still largely working on medium-level and large-level problems.  Because of this, I havent yet spot fixed chapters.  Larger changes for this version include:
   A rewrite of the character Peprin, whos name has been changed to Parlin.  The old name fit the old character; the new character was different enough that I wanted a new feel for his name.  Peprin wasnt working, in my opinion, as he was too over-the-top.  He was a little TOO dense, and we already had plenty of humor in the Vivenna sections--humor done much better and more intelligently by Denth and Tonks.  I felt that Peprins goofiness was detracting from the story and wasnt gaining anything, so I backed off and made the character far less present in the narrative.  In doing so, I hope to actually make him more sympathetic.  This may take another draft to get right.
   Vivenna is now more aware of why her father sent Siri instead of her.  Readers were feeling that Vivenna was too dense in these early chapters.  It was obvious to them why the king would make the change; it should have been obvious to Vivenna.  I agreed as I re-read the narrative, and did a reworking here.  This effected her motivations for going to TTelir in the first place, and I think strengthens her as a character.
   My agent wanted more of a sense of danger in the early chapters--a better understanding of the oncoming war, the inevitability, and the threat it posed.  I worked on this noticeably at the beginning in an attempt to establish better rooting interest for Idris.  This also played in with Vivennas reworked motivations at the beginning. 
   I split the Vivenna living on the streets chapter in two and added a little bit more material there to draw out her time.  I felt that having her get tossed onto the streets in one chapter, then get captured again in the very next seriously weakened this phase of the book.  The reader and she both needed more time to suffer.  Its still not terribly long, but I think that the slight fiddling with pacing here will have a large impact on the tempo of the story here. 
   Slightly better transition of Vivenna being scared of Vasher and agreeing to help him.
   A lot of people were having trouble understanding 1) Why Susebron could awaken objects at the end without dying and 2) Why the statues could be Awakened in the first place.  I decided that for the first, I would simply be more explicit in my explanations.  For the second, I decided that I needed to revise the narrative to fix a plot hole.  Hence the change to give the statues human bones, which I had considered in the first draft and discarded.  I think it works better here.  Both of these things are going to require a little more polishing in draft #5, but I think the climax finally has all of the explanations it needs. 
   I filled out what the different Heightenings are and explained them in more detail, including an Ars Arcanum. 
   I made a bunch of smaller changes on the paragraph or scene level to smooth the story.  I probably also introduced a lot of typos in doing so.  ;)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on January 26, 2008, 12:28:56 AM
I have just started the new version and found it much nicer in the beginning between Vivenna and her father. I loved the changes there. So far, there have been a couple doubles and typos, but totally understandable in the process. I love that we get to see the process.

So, basically, I like the changes I have noticed so far, and they do seem to flesh Vivenna out a bit more, especially in the beginning.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: stupidlefty on January 29, 2008, 01:18:45 AM
Brandon, first of all, I love your work.  I like many came to know your stuff due to the WOT announcement.  I read both Mistborn books and was hooked.  I wanted to try your polished work first before checking out Warbreaker.  Since, I read the latest draft, I thought it was spectacular.  The only bit of advise I have is an extremely small thing.  It involves the scene with Lightsong in the prison when his brother finally snaps.  I love having him become a scribe, but I think the part where he always gets his brother into trouble and ending up in jail is a little over the top and seemed out of place.  I mean how could a scribe really end up in jail so often?  I might have missed something since I was reading so quickly to try and see how it ends, but that is my two cents.  I know it is a small thing, but that was really the only part of the book that seemed out of place at all.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Bryant on January 30, 2008, 06:21:53 AM
Think I might have found a typo. In the scene where Vashir speaks with Bebid the priest in the cafe on page 64, it reads "let them to a little Awakening themselves" - which I believe should be do. Another one is on page 114, with "Lightsong stood suddenly, grabbing the cap off his head and tossing it asked". I'm guessing this should be askew.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 07, 2008, 08:33:19 AM
It took me so much longer to finish this than I thought it would have, but with the real life stuff going on it was not on the top of my priority list. Now that I am done, however, I am ready to give some thoughts.

First, I really enjoyed the changes made to Peprin/Parlin. I agree that the name change was a good idea, because he was really only somewhat recognizable as the character from before. And it worked, I was more bothered by his murder this time than I was before. I was more sympathetic to him as a character, in general, as well.

Secondly, Vivenna....I really appreciated the extra time that went into her character and chapters. I haven't read this through fully since the first draft you released to us one chapter a week, so the changes were more, well just more, I think, for me than they would have been if I had read later installments as well. I thought her development was much more fully thought out, and more real.

Siri and Seb...what can I say? I loved them going into it, and I love them still. I like that you changed his writing style, and made it grow with time, and I still love watching their relationship develop over time, it is very sweet.

Lightsong and Scoot, I think I liked them the most, as I did before. Their relationship and interaction is always enjoyable.

The other gods and goddesses, I thought were still not quite there, with the exception of Blushweaver. She was always more fleshed out than the others, and with good reason as she is more central to the plot. I just felt like the rest were a bit, superfluous, for lack of a better word. Allmother was alright, but for the part she plays I thought she might get a bit more air time, but I know that length can sometimes be an issue. I guess I should clarify. I don't really think having more of the gods and goddesses is vital, but I think it would bring a better understanding in some cases. All we really have to go off of are Blushweaver and Lightsong, with a smattering of Mercystar, who is the anti-thesis, in my opinion, of what a goddess should be. I see her as weak, and I don't know if that is fair or not.

Vasher and Denth. I group them together because really, where else would they go? I like the changes I see there, and I like the explanation we get at the end about them. I think it leaves just enough, but ties up well enough in case it is a while between books. I know you don't usually keep us waiting, but sometimes it can happen. But, I digress. I thought that Vasher was just dangerous enough in the beginning, and Denth was just charming and harmless seeming enough. Right up until he wasn't supposed to be anymore, and then the realizations that Vivenna makes, I kind of felt like I was making with her. Silly, because I had read the book already, but it was good.

All in all, I really thought that this version, minus the typos and sometime editing errors, was really good. Since I am not a writer, I can't tell you exactly what I think would flow better, but I thought some of  the beginning chapters still felt a bit  off. Not bad, just not as good as the later ones. I don't really know how to explain it.  I know that really can't be much of a help, but it is the best I can do at this hour. I do apologize for the incoherence of that statement.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: White on February 08, 2008, 02:49:54 AM
Absolutely *adored* the new work, already have Elantris and the Mistborn books, can't wait to add another of your books to my collection when it finally gets put out~!

It's been very refreshing to find an author with work of a very good standard caliber and (*shock horror~!*) actually puts out brillaint novels at an impressively satistying frequency~! Plus you're young enough that I don't have to walk around in fear of stories being forver cut short...

Okay, a little morbid maybe but I just had to mention how cool that is ;D , I mean, usually I try and estimate, when reading author's little cover-flap mini-bios how many books more they are likely to release/ if the series will be nicely finished off sometime before they die of old age. I worry over the health of my favourite authors, for at times; somewhat selfish reasons.

But yes, *big relief* and now I have Scott Lynch too and Patrick Rofthuss (and still many others) so I am very optimistic for the future of literature in general now.

 :D Happy times people~!


But yes, Warbreaker was great, and I really loved the role of the colour of white in the book (and not just because it's my favourite colour if I ever had to live in a room that was all one colour - how I always pick my favourites~!) but yes, the whole colour and desaturation of colour in the books and the thing about breaths.

It.Was.So.COOL.

(Rly, Rly).

 :) ;) :D ;D

Anyway, TTFN, many happy-pen-trails~! (and good health, let's not forget the good health, and living a nice long, fruitful life - I mean, personally I think I have a reasonable hope that you'll one day have at least twenty books published - that would be nice :D ).
.
.
.
Just had a thought, have you ever considered trying to write and publish enough books that if you stack them all up they'll cross over the midget-classification-borderline of 5' and be classed as a real height person?

(I don't know, what *is* the write name for us? full size models? wat's the P.C. term exactly? I wouldn't want to offend myself accidentally...)

Does anyone actually have experience and knowledge in how many books it would take to make a non-pygmy...?
Has there been any research or experience in the topic?


yes, sorry, had to bring that up because I just had a sudden dream... more like a goal really now.

And then you could put a hat on it and stick a pipe just in between a couple of the taller up works...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Aeri on February 08, 2008, 10:10:10 PM
Um, hi random people. *waves*. Sorry, I'm a little out of place here. Um, I love your work Brandon. I was introduced to it by Kris McLain and Sam Hegstrom Oakey. I say their names because I'm pretty sure that you met them at the dinner that you had at the Wong's house with Sam's little brother Jesse? Anyway, I'm a sister in law, but that's not important. Elantris was amazing and I loved Mistborn.

To the point though, I'm reading Warbreaker (4.2) and I have a small critique, which I hope hasn't been said before, but I don't really have time to read 40 + pages of message boarding. On page 37 you say, "Ill send them back when I arrive, she thought. Then she immediately felt her hair grow white. Sending the men back would leave her alone in a city filled with Lifeless, Awakeners, and pagans. "

While I'm sure that here you mean the term "pagan" to mean someone who doesn't follow Siri's religion (or perhaps any religion), the terms aren't exactly synonomous. Unless you really are talking about the actual pagan religion. I know the word pagan is often used to talk about people who are...godless? But the term just seemed out of place. I am not trying to be politically correct or anything, it just didn't seem to fit the warbreaker world to use the term pagan, when that actually refurs to a religion back here on earth.

Anyway, I'm going to fade back into obscurity now. I'm really enjoying the book. Thanks for writing!

-Aeri
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Clodald on February 10, 2008, 09:58:25 PM
I regret to say that it probably would have been years before I noticed these books if it was not for the untimely death of Mr. Jordan. That said am extremly glad to have found them even though I hate the reason for my finding of them. I do believe that warbreaker even in its status now is one of the best books I have read in recent years. I also believe that because this book is free it may cause some readers to not buy it I believe just as many will buy it because of the quality of the book. I would also like to say that Mr Sanderson is among my top 5 personal authors along with Mr Jordan(Wheel of Time), Mr Goodkind(Sword of Truth), Mr Butcher(Dresden Files, and The Codex Alera), and Mr Tolstoy(specifically War and Peace). I would also like to say that after reading the begining of your other books I will be going to buy them as soon as I have the time to drive to a bookstore
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 10, 2008, 10:49:21 PM
I forgot to mention the pacing in the new version of Warbreaker, which I thought was an improvement over the first draft.  Unfortunately, I don't really have much more to say about it, other than I thought it was better in this version. :)
(I know, that really was kind of redundant wasn't it?)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: rtm1981 on February 11, 2008, 06:07:32 AM
First off, I'd like to apologize for any spellingmistakes or "weirdness" in my post. I understand the english language, but I do not possess any skill when it comes to actually using it myself :) 6am and I still haven't slept, that could also be a factor!

Amazing read Mr. Sanderson; I really enjoyed it. I should say straight away that I haven't read the earlier versions of "Warbreaker" so I have nothing to compare with... having said that though, I must say that it was an impressive read, especially to be a draft.. A few things that struck me during the story - things that you may disagree with or things you have intentionally left as they are - but here they are:

You're a fantastic author, and I hope you continue writing (preferrably in this genre) for decades to come. What a wonderful imagination! The pacing was great; all the characters were fantastic, the story was engaging and nothing was clich. The magic system was innovative and fun (and had great negative consequences in some cases). I sincerely believe you are the absolute best in creating magical systems in your books. The humor was laugh-out-loud great. Thank you for the opportunity of allowing us to read this, I will definately buy the finished product and continue buying your books. I can see from the quality of your work that you won't disappoint. Sad that I, along with so many others, had to discover you through a tragedy. Life goes on however...[/size]
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Daen on February 12, 2008, 10:37:16 PM
I just finished Warbreaker 4.2 and wanted to ask a couple of questions.

I really liked the entire thing and felt that it flowed well.  I especially liked the turn of events when Vivenna found out about Denth and Parlin's murder.  Very well done. 

Anyway, onto the questions-- they have to do with the epilogue and the wrap up explanations mostly.  I'm not sure how much of this was supposed to be obscure by intention, but a couple of the details at least would be nice to have clarification in the future versions.

1. Vasher is a Returned, but he is also one of the five scholars.  Were the five scholars Returned at the time that they were doing their work/got that title?  That seems it would be the implication, since Vasher admits to not remembering his former life in the epilogue. 

2. Where in the timeline was the five scholars' life time/important part in relation to the Manywar and the begin of Peacegiver's reign?  (Hope that made sense...)

3. Are/were Denth, Tonk Fah, Shasharra (sp?), Arsteel, and Yesteel also Returned?  Again, with some of the things that are mentioned, especially with how Denth (and seemingly Tonk Fah) are very old along with Vasher, it seems to be implied that they are, but never really cleared up.  On the other hand, it is stated that Shasharra was Denth's sister, which implies they are not Returned.  I'm a little confused about this whole relationship here.

4. Also, I thought the explanation of how a Returned can survive without receiving a Breath a week, while good, seemed to be missing something.  Not sure-- maybe I just didn't understand it well the first time I read it, but I was left feeling confused.  So, does Vasher have just a lot of extra Breath hanging around that his body consumes at a rate of one a week?  How does he hide from Vivenna with her Life Sense, then?  Put it into something inanimate like Vivenna starts doing?  Does he only need to have it at the time when his body will consume it?  I found this explanation to be a bit more confusing in its current state than your others in Elantris and both Mistborns.

5. Relatedly, shortly after Vivenna meets him, Denth mentions that he has gone without Breath for long periods of time before.  Assuming he is telling the truth and that he is a Returned similar to Vasher, how does that work?  If he isn't returned, it makes  a bit more sense.

Anyway, on the whole, I really liked it.  I noticed some type-os and name confusion (using Denth instead of Vasher a few times), but I assume you'll be proofreading those out a bit later.  To answer a question you asked a few months ago about the title fitting, I think it fits really well.

Keep up the good work, and I'm looking forward to when this book gets published so I can go out and buy it!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 13, 2008, 07:05:27 AM
I know the answer to a couple of those questions....

1. I believe they were, but this one I am not 100% clear on.

2. The five scholars were at the time before, during, and after the Manywar.....Vasher is/was Peacegiver/Klad/Warbreaker.

3. Denth, Arsteel, Shasharra, Yesteel were all Returned, I believe, and four of the five Scholars, with Vasher being the fifth. I do not think that Tonk Fah is Returned, but I am not 100% sure about him.

4. I agree with that. This part isn't crystal clear to me either, so I don't feel comfortable trying to explain it.

5. He is Returned, Denth is, and he lied a lot to Vivenna during her time with him, so I don't feel that he was completely truthful with this point either. But, as with the previous question, I don't fully understand the working of the Returned breath, the one that creates them, so I can't really say more than I have.

I hope this helped you some. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Daen on February 13, 2008, 06:14:05 PM
Yeah, I think that cleared it up a bit.  Any idea on how Denth would think of Shasharra as his sister, though?

Makes a bit more sense now, with knowing a bit more about the timeline with how the five scholars started up and were initially doing their work in relation to the start of the manywar and Vasher as Peacegiver starting his reign.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Seradan on February 14, 2008, 12:34:50 AM
I enjoyed the story closer to the end, but found in v. 3 that the beginning took a while to hook me and make me really care about things. I hope that subsequent versions have more interest capturing things to go with the implications of the color based system that you have developed.

I will likely pick up the book just to support an author I enjoy, but I don't think I cared for the story quite as much as I did Mistborn or Elantris. That said, once it hit halfway or so, and things started really happening, I was very impressed, and really enjoyed the story.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 14, 2008, 04:55:04 PM
It is possible that I am wrong about Shasharra being Returned, but I am not sure...but in order for Denth to have been around as long as he has been, he has to be. The reason I thought of Shasharra as Returned was because she was one of the Five Scholars, and my understanding as I read it was that they were all Returned. It could be that the current ban on knowing who you were before you became Returned is due to past events, and they could possibly be actual brother and sister. I felt that the woman Lightsong saw in his painting, the one with Nightblood in it, was Shasharra, since she helped create him, and that the murder came in a more recent time, but now that I think about it I could be totally wrong about that. I know that really doesn't help much, but I am a just a fan :)

Vasher not only stopped the Manywar as Peacegiver, he started it as well, as Klad.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Clio on February 16, 2008, 11:42:37 PM
I have finished the Warbreaker and i really liked the book. However, I have to agree with rtm1981 post and some of the points he raises:
I also found Siri's and Suse's relation a bit lacking; in fact the book opens with Siri and by the end of it i feel that her storyline has been sent to much to background. I feel there is some continuity missing to her and Suse revealing to each other that they are in love and altogether I found Suse's character a bit disapointing: he's sudden transformation in the end not totally compensating for it (for example, if he never had spoken in his life, how could he suddenly now how to awaken things? were did he learn to do it?
Also, i found the ending a bit rushed, again missing a closure scene with the 2 above mentioned characters.
In regards to the returned and so on... some questions - if they can not have children, how can the royal familly be descendent of one? Also, if they can shape-change, as Vasher refers in the end, and the royal family can change their hair color because of their ascendents, then why are the Gods not aware of this? and why does Siri's arrival among the Gods and her control of her hair growth, etc, is something no one else can do? Also, the change of hair colour is something the real family loose control of when to excited, etc. If the Gods' body reflects how they think of them selves, why does it seem imutable? At least Lightsong personality changes would suggest some kind of change to his perception of him self! I don't know, it just seemed that some explanations were introduced in the end that don't really match what went on.
Also, what happens to Jewells and Tonk Fah? they simply disappear!
To conclude - I really liked Vivenna's character growth but felt that Siri's character went the other way (shrinking), and was a bit disappointed by the God King's character. I really liked Lightsong, the bad guys (Denth and company), and Vasher. Their world and powers are quite fascinating and interesting, but some things are a bit off (in my opinion) and could be better shapped.
I hope i have raised some new questions has i did not read through all the other posts.
 P.S. - I really liked the book ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Felastizairu on February 17, 2008, 07:27:40 AM
I have finished the Warbreaker and i really liked the book. However, I have to agree with rtm1981 post and some of the points he raises:
I also found Siri's and Suse's relation a bit lacking; in fact the book opens with Siri and by the end of it i feel that her storyline has been sent to much to background. I feel there is some continuity missing to her and Suse revealing to each other that they are in love and altogether I found Suse's character a bit disapointing: he's sudden transformation in the end not totally compensating for it (for example, if he never had spoken in his life, how could he suddenly now how to awaken things? were did he learn to do it?

Susebron is waaaaaay past the 6th heightening and can therefore instinctively awaken objects.  See the Ars Arcanum at the end where it says:

"Instinctive Awakening:  All persons of the Sixth Heightening and above immediately understand and can use basic Awakening Commands without training or practice.  More difficult Commands are easier for them to master and to discover."
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Cosmic_AC on February 22, 2008, 02:53:11 AM
Minor, but not obvious, consistency error:

On page 49, it says that Returned are of the Eighth Heightening.  However, throughout the rest of the book, it says they are of the Fifth, and only the God-King's Breath is worth an Eighth Heightening.  Of course, with all his extra Breath, he is of the Tenth.

Also, it seems to me that the Heightenings that affect one's Awakening skills actually require much more Breath to be useful.  That is, if one has enough Breath to Awaken instinctively, he/she must still have more Breath to keep the ability, else he/she Awakens something and "forgets" how to un-Awaken or control it.  Is this the case, or is the instant knowledge of Awakening granted by the Sixth Heightening permanent?  i.e. is it like "I want to Awaken that cloth over there, hey, I know how!" or "Hey, I'm at the Sixth Heightening!  So, like, now I totally know how to go about Awakening thingies forEVAR!  Yippee!"

Just wondering.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Craysh on February 22, 2008, 11:34:44 AM
A question about Vasher.
How can Vasher use all his breath and become a drab? Doesn't using all their breath extinguish their life?

Also, is this a stand alone book? It seems like it could spin off into another beautiful trilogy :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on February 22, 2008, 06:06:15 PM
My understanding is that this is not a stand alone, but I am not sure about how many other books will be with it. I thought I heard just one other, but I am not certain.

As for Vasher's divine breath....I have no idea really. I have been hazy on that part, but I always assumed that kind of thing would be covered more in the next book.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Felastizairu on February 22, 2008, 10:09:03 PM
A question about Vasher.
How can Vasher use all his breath and become a drab? Doesn't using all their breath extinguish their life?


We know that Vasher has more information and experience with how to use Breath than pretty much anyone else currently living.  Vasher has some way of Returning and un-Returning himself.  My guess would be that as long as he's in un-Returned form, he can use up Breath just like anyone else, even to the point of becoming a drab.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Craysh on February 22, 2008, 11:50:55 PM

We know that Vasher has more information and experience with how to use Breath than pretty much anyone else currently living. Vasher has some way of Returning and un-Returning himself. My guess would be that as long as he's in un-Returned form, he can use up Breath just like anyone else, even to the point of becoming a drab.
He wasn't un-Returned, he simply changed his body (which according to Vasher anyone could do)
I thought maybe it was along the same lines of why Vivienna could do it since she's a descendant of Returned.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Cosmic_AC on February 23, 2008, 01:13:40 AM
And that's another weird thing:

How can the Idrian Nobility be descended from Returned if Returned are unable to reproduce?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: White on February 23, 2008, 09:18:22 AM
I don't know... that is a big question isn't it? because supposedly that's why they have the 'hair of a different colour' (or whatever like in the wizard of oz...).

... Kind of confusing, yes.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Kingston on February 24, 2008, 12:13:19 AM
Brandon I just finished version 4.2 on my Kindle and can't tell you how much I loved it.

Wait, maybe I can:  I had not read fiction for over 40 years and mainly read non-fiction, biographies, etc.  With the Kindle I took the plunge and started Garth Nix' Abhorsen series. Liked that and read Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy, followed by Gaiman's Coraline and Neverwhere.

I am not being untruthful when I say your book was by far the best. In none of the other fantasy books did the characters seem more than cardboard figures put in place to move the story along. They were not living breathing human beings as your main characters were--people we came to know and care about. The main characters in the other books, indeed ALL the characters in the other books were distant, unknowable, two dimensional, somewhat colorless and interchangeable, like your lesser priests, slum lords and Idrians Vasher & Vivenna met with.

But you managed to bring some real people into the pages and you've accomplished what you set out to do--I'm a lifelong fan of yours.

I hope all your work is put in ebook format as that is now my preferred method of reading. As an aging Baby Boomer I can change the font size to meet my diminishing visual needs and it will be hard to go back to a tree book.

One small quibble: the name 'Lightsong' did not seem to fit the character. Perhaps I'm a bit biased because I dabbled in gospel music and 'Windsong' is one of the record label names, that and I remember Paul Rubens screaming 'lightspeed' in the StarWars ride in Disney MGM Kingdom.   As well as the name of the CT scanner where I work "Lightspeed".

So to me it's a bit of a corny name with some juvenile like connotations. You other names are spot on. I've read reviewers who have mentioned (and I agree) that Pullman is very poor with names. You are not.

The magic element was wonderfully done, easily surpassing Pullman and equalling Nix.

Does Tor plan to release the trilogy in digital format? I have Mistborn but will wait to read it until subsequent volumes can be read on my Kindle. I asked about this on a Kindle blog and J. Scott Savage said he would ask you about it after the Life of the Universe panel you two shared.

You are blessed with a great talent!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: bamnptow on February 26, 2008, 04:26:32 AM
I am new to Brandon Sanderson's work, having heard of him because of the recent WoT announcement.  I decided to try Warbreaker as an introduction to his work prior to the release of AMoL, and I am glad I did.

I love the fact that he decided to release this as an e-book, particularly the opportunity for his fans to participate in the writing of the novel in some small, but significant ways.  I assure you, Brandon, that I will buy a copy of Warbreaker when it is released in print, even if I have read a final, edited draft online, if only to show support for your efforts.

Overall, I liked Warbreaker.  There are certainly a few typos, missing words, and minor holes, but it is very good, particularly given that it is perhaps 4 drafts away from a final release (I read the PDF, version 4.2). 

I disagree with some of what I have read in this forum -- I found that I was hooked at the start of the book.  The opening line in the Prologue is outstanding.  I wanted to know, after just 1 sentence, all about Vasher.

A few of the other things I liked about the book:

There were a few things that I think could use some work.  Please take these in the spirit they are intended -- suggestions for making a good draft just a little better.

Again, thank you Brandon for your work on this, and for releasing it to the public this way.  It has been a fun exercise.  I look forward to reading future drafts, and eventually buying Warbreaker in hardcover.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: charity on February 26, 2008, 05:15:00 AM
I finished it... finally. and once again I found myself saying to my husband "I just don't know how he's gonna tie this all up in 100 pages" and then I'm left reading 100 pages in one sitting, refusing to eat until I'm done.

I saw a ton of questions while scanning through the last 5 pages or so, but I'm gonna ask a different one.... Is there a page on this thread where EUOL answers some?

hehe, that way I wouldn't have to read all 44 pages to find my answers. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SexyTurtle on February 28, 2008, 09:28:51 PM
I definitely started reading this less than 24hrs ago and completed it. I literally read, finally had no choice but to go to sleep for a while, then woke up and finished it.

I really liked it. I couldn't stop reading....

As far as critique,

Most of the Vivenna chapters, until she met up with Vasher, were a struggle to get through. Her close minded bias was so strong it irritated me to the point of boredom?

I really loved the foreshadowing -- like the painting of the war that Lightsong looks at, that reveals Lifeless + Shashara w/Nightblood.

I liked that there was at least a comment about how Susebron could use his tongue after not having one for so long. I also thought the name was spelled Suesbron halfway through the story, then when I noticed it wasn't, I thought the spelling as Susebron wasn't as cool :P

I would have liked to have seen a few scenes of what was going on back in Idris during the rest of the story. I kept wondering how the king had taken Vivenna's disappearance, and how the build up of their army was going.

Huth and ....oh I can't remember the names of those two cities, but anyway they are mentioned about 3 times in the story, and then slightly more clearly at the very end. I felt like there should be a bit more explanation when they were mentioned.

Maybe a bit more relation between why the royal's hair color changes and their lineage from the Returned. And a better last name than Royal? Maybe that was just a place holder for a better name.

I was deceived on so many levels....I trusted Denth, and so many others. That was impressive. I would have liked to have been able to make a better opinion of Suesbron's priests, but I never saw how they interacted with the god king. I know that may have given it away, but I also wondered about what was going on during the day when Siri was running around and Suesbron was...wherever? And I would like to know how is mother died.

I really loved the way Blushweaver (if that's the name, I don't feel like looking back to find it) was developed. I didn't like her at first, and then I loved her. Not enough to cry during her death tho. I'm big on the whole getting so attached to characters that I cry....I don't know how to offer any advice on that.

Well that's my critiques for now. Again, I really loved the story. I hope my comments are constructive. ^_^ And yea, I'm totally buying Elantris, the Mistborns, and Warbreaker when they're all out <3 I'm gonna borrow the 2nd Mistborn from my friend in the next few days (gotta wait for the paperback before I buy it, I'm a poor college student :)  ).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DaleDe on March 05, 2008, 01:03:22 AM
I just finished version 4.2 and I loved it. I found about 20 typos or so but the book flowed very well. The only critique is with the prolog. Everywhere in the book the awakening was accompanied by a voice command and it was stated that this was a requirement but in the prolog a voice was not used in the first spells. This is inconsistent.

Note that I love eBooks and read this, after conversion, on my eBook reader.  I hope you will consider publishing in eBook formats as I much prefer this to reading hard copy books. I looked at some of your earlier offerings and they seem to be only paper.

Dale
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: rjl on March 05, 2008, 08:59:45 PM
This is the first book of Brandon's that I have read, and I have to say that it's a very good advert, I'm now intending to buy Mistborn and Elantris the when I next have a decent amount of free time.

Having said that, there are a few problems with it.

Ignoring typos as I know this is a draft, a few issues strike me:

Do returned get hungry and have to eat? Lightsong says that they don't, but then Susebron seams to suggest that he often gets hungry at night, and sends for food when the whole thing about Siri being hungry from growing her hair comes up. I personally think it would be better without the idea of the returned not needing food.

What's up with the God Kings vanishing after they have children, if as is suggested at the end the priests aren't guilty of foul play, what happens to the God Kings?

I don't think Vasher is explained properly, how can he use the command to give his breaths (on Denth) away without giving his "divine breath"? I thought it always gave everything.

Also the book seemed to lack polish in a few places, it didn't seem to flow quite right,  from time to time, but I'm sure you're editor will be able to help you far more than me on this, I'm a reader not an editor or writer.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DaleDe on March 06, 2008, 01:57:31 AM
This is the first book of Brandon's that I have read, and I have to say that it's a very good advert, I'm now intending to buy Mistborn and Elantris the when I next have a decent amount of free time.

Having said that, there are a few problems with it.

Ignoring typos as I know this is a draft, a few issues strike me:

Do returned get hungry and have to eat? Lightsong says that they don't, but then Susebron seams to suggest that he often gets hungry at night, and sends for food when the whole thing about Siri being hungry from growing her hair comes up. I personally think it would be better without the idea of the returned not needing food.

I will take a stab at some of your questions:

I think they don't need to eat but then they may still desire to eat. If they had to eat then they would die without food.

Quote
What's up with the God Kings vanishing after they have children, if as is suggested at the end the priests aren't guilty of foul play, what happens to the God Kings?

I understood this to mean that the extra breaths were removed in a way that the priest died before he could reveal it. Then the God King just becomes a regular returned. I am sure Vasher or someone knows how to remove all the extra breaths that the God King has.

Quote
I don't think Vasher is explained properly, how can he use the command to give his breaths (on Denth) away without giving his "divine breath"? I thought it always gave everything.

Well he did give away everything and became a drab (or whatever they were called) just as Viveena did at one point. He has some breaths in clothing that he used to get some back later but it was kind of a neat trick. He could not, of course, get back what he gave Denth. Only the returned died when they gave away their breaths.

Quote
Also the book seemed to lack polish in a few places, it didn't seem to flow quite right,  from time to time, but I'm sure you're editor will be able to help you far more than me on this, I'm a reader not an editor or writer.

Dale
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spink_Longfellow on March 08, 2008, 03:30:43 AM
Been awhile since I've made a comment. It seems a little mundane to me but clarification would be relatively easy. There is mention of 300 years rule by the God-Kings. Klad the Usurper being the last to have a Queen of the Royal bloodline. Klad having split the kingdoms, leading to Hallandren and Idris. However, the Idrian king made the treaty to marry a female Royal away only recently? His treaty only a lifetime old? Klad had started the Manywar but this timeline is unclear. I'm just trying to figure it myself, any ideas?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: rjl on March 08, 2008, 11:19:53 PM
I don't think Vasher is explained properly, how can he use the command to give his breaths (on Denth) away without giving his "divine breath"? I thought it always gave everything.

Well he did give away everything and became a drab (or whatever they were called) just as Viveena did at one point. He has some breaths in clothing that he used to get some back later but it was kind of a neat trick. He could not, of course, get back what he gave Denth. Only the returned died when they gave away their breaths.
But Vasher is a returned, that's the problem.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SexyTurtle on March 09, 2008, 06:32:20 PM
Rhuan has a very good point.

I think the food thing needs to be a little more clear (craving vs needing), and the Vasher thing is either a large plot hole or something that needs a bit more information.

I can't wait for the next version of the story, I'll definitely read the entire thing over again in a heart beat ^_^
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on March 11, 2008, 08:30:02 PM
I am not the author, but let me see if I can help a bit.

Klad/Peacegiver/Vasher is Returned, and one of the Five Scholars. He was the start and the end of the Manywar, but as he said, history has a way of not wanting to see that the person who began a war could also be the person who ended it.

I don't know for sure if he is the original Returned, that the Idrian Royals are supposedly related to, but he is very old. I think the 300 year mark is accurate.

Having read the first and the last version, and some of the middle ones but not all, I will say that flow has improved, as has the characters. Every re-write gives a bit more, so I am sure some of the little things will be seen to in later drafts.

The food issue with Susebron, and Vasher and Denth, who both eat throughout the book, and Lightsong, who says he doesn't "need" food, but enjoys it is a bit confusing if you let yourself think about it. I guess I had mainly glossed over the eating parts, I mean I read them but didn't ponder them as much as other parts. Now that it is there, sure, I would like to know if this is an inconsistency, or if there is a difference between a normal Returned and say, Seb, or Vasher.

So, I hope I helped.  :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spink_Longfellow on March 12, 2008, 04:37:59 AM
I think that part of my ponderings were answered there. However, I imagine that several of the big looming questions that pop to my mind are to be written into the next book or shouldn't be answered at all. When I read or write I want to think, but not too hard. There is a balance of moderation where you assume your reader/author has a level of intelligence. That said, you still write or read at a fourth grade level. I don't think there is any need to make yourself seem smart as an author. The story will speak for itself.

Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chrynoble on March 14, 2008, 06:18:16 PM
I just finished 4.2 and although I haven't read any previous versions, I noticed that you have made changes to the character of Parlin. In prior versions you said he was too overbearing on the story, but I think in this version the pendulum may have swung too far the other way. I kept wondering why he was there, and what his point was. Then he starts wearing the hats, and I found myself just wishing he would go away. When he is killed I thought "Oh, thats what he is for, plot hook fodder".

I would add some content to show, as you have suggested, that he and Vivenna have a close, but perhaps forced relationship. Most of this could be done by simply starting Vivenna's story earlier and allowing us to see some travel time. If not that, then I would consider removing the character altogether.

Whatever you end up doing, I would have liked to feel like Parlin's death meant more to Vivenna than just a gruesome scene.

Other than that my only suggestion is to add a table of contents. I was able to do this easily with words auto-reference tools and found it was very helpful when reading the book over several sittings.

Having dispensed with the (hopefully constructive) criticism I have to say I really enjoyed this book. It was also good to see that some of the parts of the book I was struggling with, are also the parts you have rewritten and plan on working on. I will defiantly look froward to other versions, and the final publication.

I was also happy to see that you intended his book to be less serious than your Mistborn series. While I haven't read that series yet, it is good to know you can write both the serious and less serious aspects of fantasy. I wouldn't go so far as to call Warbreaker light hearted, but it certainty wasn't dark.

I will admit as my final remark that I read Warbreaker to gain some measure of understanding of you as an author now that you hold the reins of Robert Jordans great saga. Thank you for posting a complete work with which I could get such a sense. I know that wasn't your original intention, but I think it sets at ease many of the uncertainties Jordan's fans have felt in regards to the future of his work.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: reskar on March 16, 2008, 06:32:48 PM
Hi, new to the forums. First post actually. I finished 2 of your other novels and really liked them but won't go into that here. I've read your first 6 chapters that you've posted on your website and I'll continue to read them as they come up. Since you seem to be inviting feedback I thought I would mention this:

In the prologue Vasher kills Vahr in exchange for his breath. What surprised me was Vahr's willingness to die. Why did he not demand that Vasher helps him escape for his breath. Was it too hard to free Vahr but not too hard to free himself? Did Vahr not want to live without Breath? This point seems to remain unclear.

I have been enjoying your novel throughly I just felt that this point might be worth addressing.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: rjl on March 16, 2008, 10:37:12 PM
reskar, you know he's made the whole book available as a .doc: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/WarbreakerFull4.2.doc
or a .pdf: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/warbreaker4.2.pdf

I don't think washer would contemplate releasing Vahr, as Vahr's aims would conflict with Vahser's.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SexyTurtle on March 17, 2008, 05:59:09 AM
I liked Parlin for being quirky, and I wouldn't mind if there was more coming from his part of the story. I'm not sure how long the book is supposed to end up being, but it'd be great to have some chapters from his POV. I think he is important for putting more emphasis on how the sister (finished the book a couple weeks ago and def. forgot her name) is so close-minded while he accepts change and flows with it. Did I mention how frustrating she was....lol
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: BlackWiz on March 21, 2008, 06:20:20 AM
I really enjoyed this book but one thing kind of bugs me now.  How can returned have returned siblings (Arsteel-Yesteel, Denth-Shashara)?  The odds seem to be a bit to great for two returned in the same family and they lose their memories anyway.  I guess they could have adopted eachother later but that seems a bit unintuitive.  Come to think of it, Shashara and Yesteel might not even be returned (5th hightening grants immortality, don't technically need to be returned, and Shashara died in the Manywar anyway).  It is sort of implied that all the great scholars were, but that isn't enough be sure.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Spink_Longfellow on March 22, 2008, 03:48:32 AM
BlackWiz, I think that you were only slightly mistaken. I might be wrong too, but I think that the scholars had reached the 5th heightening (or probably higher) but were not naturally returned. I think the command that Vasher used "Return" merely took him to the returned state, a benefit of the 5th heightening.

Spink_Longfellow
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: BlackWiz on March 22, 2008, 05:57:06 AM
Vasher was definitely returned, he mentioned the loss of memory in the epilogue.  Denth also didn't have enough breath the acheive 5th heightening but was immortal anyway.  As far as I know they could only hide the "divine" breath, not a couple thousand extra ones.  This extends to Arsteel as well, leaving only Yesteel and Shashara.  Of course I could be totally wrong and missed something.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on March 23, 2008, 06:21:58 AM
No, you pretty much have it right BlackWiz. Vasher, Denth, and Arsteel are all Returned, and yes, I believe the only Breath they can hide is the Divine Breath, unless they put them into clothes and such.

As for Yesteel and Shashara, I believe both to have been Returned, if only for the fact that I think it mentions in the Epilogue that Vasher was seeking Yesteel. I would have to look at it again to verify, and I am not on my own computer, so I don't have the text downloaded here. The only one that isn't mentioned for sure as being Returned is Shashara, but I believe she was, as one of the Five Scholars. I believe they all were.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Blane_Firehand on April 08, 2008, 04:05:28 PM
Warbreaker is excellent, so far my favorite of Sanderson's works (having previously read Elantris and Mistborn/Well of Ascension). I would have to say that while Vivenna was my least favorite of the characters at the beginning of the book, she was definitely my favorite at the end. This says something about her character development. I especially like the contrast between Siri and Vivenna, and the way they end up switching rolls (responsibility vs freedom).

Some people have complained about some of the mysteries that weren't answered. I would say that this is an indication of good writing (note I said mysteries, not inconsistencies). This gives Sanderson material to expand upon in future books. At the very least, it hints at a larger world behind the book.

One thing that bothered me slightly was the battle between the lifeless and the statues (DDenir). I'll have to reread to see exactly what's written, but it seems that said battle deserves at least paragraph or so (I don't recall it being covered at all).  Edit: I reread, there's more than I remember. But still not very much.
Another's comment (sorry, don't recall who made it) about lack of information on what was happening back in Idris seemed a valid point.

After reading others' posts, I feel that I need to reread to make intelligent comments. I may even have to read earlier versions!

Note: I originally thought Sanderson was crazy for releasing a free book. However, after reading I would definitely say I plan on buying it when it comes out (and I have the money).
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Cosmic_AC on April 11, 2008, 04:12:57 AM
While the role-switching between the two Idrian siblings was largely well-done, there was a bit too much of Vivenna going "Oh my gosh look how much I changed!" throughout the book.  In several places, it is rather obvious to the reader that she has undergone quite a bit of character development -- without needing to rub it in all the time.

It still isn't very clear why the Siri's father chose to switch them, other than because it turned out better in the end.  Siri's father presumably didn't really know about the situation in the Court of the Gods much better than Vivenna did, so why would he decide Siri was a better choice?  I kept waiting for a flashback or a PoV change to someone in Idris or something that would explain the king's motives, but I must have missed it if it ever came.

I hope I'm not making a terrible fool of myself by overlooking something...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on April 11, 2008, 05:41:23 AM
To him, losing Vivenna to the God King was something that he couldn't handle, emotionally. While he loved his children, it didn't take a genius to see that Vivenna was favored above all, and Siri was the one that was the most trying for him. I think it was simply that Siri's loss would not have hurt him as much as Vivenna's, nothing more than that. It was the correct choice in the end, but he had no way of knowing that when he did it. At least that is how I remember it.


Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dude321 on April 14, 2008, 06:54:28 PM
I've just finished the book and I'm a little confused as to why it was so easy for Vasher to escape from prison in the prologue.  Didn't they realize he was an Awakener?
Wonderful book ( better than Mistborn or Elantris though I never thought I would say that)...
I'll be looking forward for it in hard copy eventually.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on April 15, 2008, 02:35:25 AM
No, they didn't know he was an Awakener. That was what made his escape so easy. None of them had more than their one breath, if I read it right, and he only had a small amount at the time. He received many, many more from the prisoner he killed.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SarahG on June 02, 2008, 09:23:01 PM
First, I apologize for resurrecting this - but then again, it is a sticky thread, so doesn't that make it fair game?  In any case, after reading all 46 pages and taking notes on versions 3.5 and 4.2, I couldn't resist sharing my thoughts, for what they're worth.

1. I agree with many that BioChroma is not an ideal term, for the reasons discussed. A couple other terms also struck me as incongruous:
   - "Monk" is generally a male term, at least in our world; it seems almost as bizarre to me to have female "monks" as if you had male "nuns".  I might suggest a more gender-neutral term, such as "devoted".
   - "Mercenaries," in our world, are soldiers hired by a foreign army, engaging in combat on behalf of a nation not their own.  I don't think of hired muscle such as Denth & his crew as mercenaries, because they are not really soldiers engaging in combat between nations; they are individual toughs/assasins/bodyguards hired by individual people for all kinds of purposes - not necessarily warfare.  I do understand that "mercenary" connotes the sense of loyalty to money rather than anything/anyone else; however, I don't believe it describes what they DO for that money very accurately.

2. My votes on a few issues previously discussed:
   - I too guessed that Lightsong was Arsteel, until the timing of his death/return didn't match.
   - I too thought Vasher had mind-control powers, not only from when he made the child forget her captivity, but later in chapter 57, when Denth says, "I can't forget," Vasher says, "I can make you.  I know the Commands."
   - I too was astonished to discover that Returned can be injured or killed, other than by self-sacrifice.  In chapter 5, Llarimar tells Lightsong, "Your body is immune to all toxins."  (This seems to contradict the fact that Denth poisoned Lemks - although maybe this is because Lemks was not Returned.)  Also, in the Ars Arcanum, it states that the Fifth Heightening grants functional immortality.  Also, in chapter 15 Lightsong says, "They can't execute me.  I'm a god."  Of course, from the way the story comes out we know that "functional immortality" must refer to immunity from disease and aging, but the way the story unfolds it seems misleading; the reader is shocked along with Lightsong to discover he can be injured and Blushweaver can be killed.  (On the other hand, there is a slight hint in chapter 47, where Lightsong thinks, "Leaving [Command Phrases] in the hands of a single god was to risk losing the Phrase through assassination."  I didn't catch this hint in my first reading, but it is there.)
   - I too felt the Lightsong ->investigative accountant twist fell a bit flat.  It didn't seem to me that someone trained to audit books would naturally go about investigating murders and questioning witnesses.
   - I too felt like there wouldn't be enough Breaths to go around - even with the change from one-a-day to one-a-week.  Not only does Hallandren need a large population, but the Court of the Gods needs a very large budget to reimburse all those people.  I get the impression a single Breath is worth about $10,000?  If so, the purchase of Breaths alone, for the Returned and the God King, would be around $14 million a year.  When you add in salaries for perhaps 3000 priests and servants (I'm trying to be conservative here - we know that each Returned had at least 100), plus the upkeep of all the extravagant palaces, this system gets very very expensive.  Either this religion collects a lot of offerings (which are never mentioned), or the taxes are quite high, or the population is much larger than I'd been led to believe.  In any case, it might deserve to be mentioned.

3. A few picky notes on apparent inconsistencies:
   - In the prologue, Vasher says "Thank you" to the Awakened straw man.  Later (ch 49) he apologizes to Awakened objects.  Other places, we don't see him saying anything at all as he retrieves his Breaths.
   - If Vahr was a Pahn Kahl, and was arrested for inciting rebellion, then why were the people of Hallandren so unsuspicious of people from Pahn Kahl?  Wouldn't Vahr's actions have clued them in to the Pahn Kahl people's desire to overthrow them?
   - Why were Bluefingers' fingers blue?  Didn't their script use all colors of ink?  Then again, perhaps his work as a scribe would not generally involve the more formal Artisan's Script.  Maybe this is a non-issue.
   - In chapter 19, the new house Denth finds is "fenced on either side with large palm trees, obscuring the view should someone try to spy from the neighboring buildings."  As one who grew up in the tropics, this seemed strange to me.  All the palm trees I've seen are bare trunks with only the tops bushy - large palm trees might screen 3rd floor windows, but not lower ones.  I would suggest mango trees, instead; they can be very large, too, and would provide much better cover.  Or at least have some smaller palm trees interspersed with the large ones.
   - Chapter 21: "Vasher looked up, shocked but not really surprised."  What exactly does that mean?  How can he be shocked if he's not surprised?  I think of shock as simply a stronger form of surprise.  "Startled but not really surprised" might work better. 
   - In chapter 22, Vivenna thinks, "Snakes might be common in the jungle, but that doesn't mean people are excited about seeing them."  I would have expected her to come up with a metaphor from the mountains or highlands, not from the jungle.
   - Chapter 26: "Bloody wounds upon bloody uniforms upon bloody skin."  How are the wounds upon the uniforms?  The other way around would make more sense: "Bloody uniforms upon bloody wounds upon bloody skin."
   - In chapter 32, Siri had "rarely even seen any Awakeners in the Court.  Even when she did, she didn't really care.  The monks had spoken against such things, but, well, she had paid about as much attention to them as she had her tutors."  This seems strange to me.  At the beginning, Siri had certainly been bothered by the presence of Awakeners, at least she was horrified to realize that the doctor examining her was one, and that he had touched her.  So it's clearly an Idris sensibility that she has lost or outgrown.  This might be plausible with her character development, except that she has NOT lost or outgrown her Idris modesty, as shown soon after this scene, when Bluefingers again surprises her in her bath.
   - In chapter 35, why doesn't Vasher imprison Vivenna more carefully?  That is, gag her more securely, use chains instead of ropes, and other usual anti-Awakener precautions?  He knows she holds a lot of Breaths; he doesn't know that she is either unable or unwilling to use them.  It would make sense for him to be more careful.
   - In chapter 36, how does Susebron chew and swallow, especially such large mouthfuls, with no tongue?  This isn't my area of expertise, but it seems to me that the tongue is a very useful organ for moving food around in the mouth, positioning it properly for the teeth to grind it, then pushing it towards the throat.  How does Susebron manage these things without it?
   - In chapter 49, is Vivenna practicing with cloth or with ribbon (to fetch her cup)?  I don't think of those as synonyms.
   - In chapter 50, Siri "allowed herself to be led back to her rooms."  I had understood that she didn't have "rooms", but that the whole palace was open to her use.
   - In chapter 54, Llarimar says, "When we found you dead...I knelt above your body."  Wasn't Lightsong lost at sea, drowned in a storm?  How did they find his body?  I guess maybe it washed up on shore...
   - In chapter 55, how do the Pahn Kahl change the Lifeless commands so quickly?  It took Lightsong several hours, and that was only for a fourth of them.  Perhaps the Pahn Kahl divided up the work, that would explain it.

OK, that's all the constructive criticism I've got at the moment - obviously, feel free to consider or ignore whichever bits you wish.  Thanks for this opportunity to express opinions about a work in progress.  My enjoyment of the story was much increased by the possibility that I might, in some small way, influence its final form.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Cruciform on June 05, 2008, 03:04:37 AM
If Susebron has no tongue, why does he start going for the extra deserts?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on June 08, 2008, 01:21:50 AM
I would just say, add in more about Pahn Kahl. When i first read about the "Bluefingers is from Pahn Kahl, i kinda ignored it and assumed it was just part of an author's worldbuilding.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: theletterP on June 13, 2008, 03:49:35 PM
It has been a couple of weeks since I finished reading the book so I dont have too many comments about specific details, I will have to go back to a couple of spots I remember and re-read before commenting.  But I did want to give a quick post about the project overall. 

First off, I really enjoyed the book.  I found reading a draft quite interesting actually and would never consider holding any errors or inconsistencies against an author.  While I dont know if reading this will impact my future purchase of Warbreaker (we will see when it comes out), I can say that after reading this book I will definately be looking at purchasing Mistborn and Elantris in the future.  I will be honest in that the reason I started reading Warbreaker was to get a feel for the "guy who will finish the WOT series".  I feel kind of guilty referring to Brandon that way now and feel reassured in regards to AMOL.  I am happy to say that I feel like I have discovered another author to read.  I have been reading Fantasy/Sci-Fi for 15+ years and always enjoy finding a new series or author to read. 

Anyway,  thanks to Brandon for doing this and I really do think it was a fantastic idea.  Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Flaamwing on June 24, 2008, 03:19:25 PM
Hi, I just stumbled across this book yesterday, and took the rest of the night to read it :P

Very well written book, and yes - I will likely purchase it.   I havent read all the comments in this forum, as there are 45 pages worth!!! and I'm limited on time right now.  However, I noticed 2 issues that disrupt the story for me.

1) How is it that Vasher can blithely say that the royal family has returned blood in their parentage, when returned can't have children?
2) It was never explained why the god-kings would need an heir.  If they were getting restless, that would be one thing... but obviously Susebron wasn't getting restless, so why would the priests feel the need to push for an heir at that point?

Just my thoughts.
Flaamwing

P.S. Mr. Sanderson asked about Lightsong's humor, I thought it was fairly well done and wouldn't want it changed.  I did particularly like the comment about having his priests through stones, as it would be less painful than having to talk to him  :P
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on June 24, 2008, 09:11:33 PM
One question:
Is the Manywar supposed to be analogous to our own World Wars? That was the first thing i thought of...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: belle_epoque on July 02, 2008, 11:06:41 AM
So I read Warbreaker last night, and -of course- I really enjoyed it.

My only major criticism is that I found the ending a bit lacking, not in the sense that there was any important information missing, but rather that there was a rather forced attempt to fill in quite a few plot gaps very abruptly. I love the element of surprise in Sanderson's books, but I think that the amount of things explained in the last few chapters worked against him a bit. Instead of leaving the tale feeling satisfied, I finished the book thinking, "Ok?"

I think a lot of my frustration involved the backstory of the Five Scholars. So Vasher's one of them. Ok. Oh, and he started--and brought an end to-- the Manywar. Ok. And then he disappeared--and came back hundreds of years later to save the Idris. And did I mention he's a Returned and the creator of stone armies and a world-famous French pastry chef? Maybe it's just me...

I also thought Susebron got off a little easy. I was expecting a bit more self-sacrifice (or something) to overcome the threat of war than the (in my opinion) rather simplistic solution of just awakening some stone henchmen to do it for them.

As much as I griped about the ending, I did enjoy the book immensely. Sanderson is always one of my go-to authors when people ask me for recommendations.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: nonsequitor on July 07, 2008, 02:41:34 AM
I also felt the climax of the story was rushed. Vasher's revelation to Susebron and the conclusion of the war were only a few paragraphs apart with a weak excuse about stone men with human bones. Ok, so the human bones inside the stone bodies make the warriors easier to animate, but how did they get the bones inside the statues in the first place, there was no indication of the technology necessary for concrete or wiring together skeletons to put in molds. That and the food fetish for the man without a tongue seemed contrived. Also if the returned shape their bodies in their own image, wouldn't Susebron have been able to grow his own tongue?

I really enjoyed the story, however I didn't really get a good grasp on what biochroma was until the lesson Vasher gives near the end of the story. One of the things that doesn't sit right with me is the nature of the BioChroma economy, the author portrays the accumulation of BioChroma as a sort of greed, yet the priests and returned "gods" turned out to be the good guys, well not the bad guys. Maybe if giving your breath, as a living person, not returned, only made you a drab for a while, something that replenishes naturally. People who give breath to their gods can be seen in a better light, though its not so dramatic a faith as giving your one and only breath of BioChroma to your gods. This would allow people to have naturally stronger auras than others and possibly regain breath faster if used and lost. I guess I would have liked more information earlier maybe from Vasher's internal monologue similar to his explanation of awakening during the prison break. Otherwise a religion asking that sort of sacrifice from its followers still seems evil.

Oh, last but not least, working the words positive, negative, and absolute value into a sentence to show a character "knows math" was lame. While that sentence may have had some philosophical value, using modern mathematical notation for something like that seems like the wrong way to do it. I groaned when I read that, maybe substituting "magnitude" or "intensity" for "absolute value" will have the effect you're looking for.

I hate only writing about the negative parts of my experience with this novel, I really enjoyed reading it, and its also cool to be able to provide feedback on a work in progress.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Dellraun on July 08, 2008, 03:47:37 PM
The climax was rushed, seemed to pack to much in right at the end.  I also didn't care for the epliogue to much, seemed like a lame way to leave an opening for a sequel (Hey! Lets drop a hint about another D&D adventure at my house next week!).  My only other complaint would be about taking 'stored breaths' from an object. In Ch. 43 when Vasher gives Viv the shawl back he says he can't get them. But in the epilogue it mentions that they find Vasher's clothes and they split the breaths between them (unless Vasher took back some of the breaths and then gave them to Viv?). It's a small thing, but it really jumped out at me when I read that.

Overall it's a great book, and I can't wait to pick up. Along with Hero of Ages and A Memory of Light.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Utheran on July 17, 2008, 07:09:52 PM
First I'd like to say I love the book and I'll definitely be buying it when it comes out. I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this or if it's important but I noticed a spelling mistake on page 202, on version 4.2:
"There was a hesitance about her.  Either she had not been trained for formal situations--witch Lightsong found difficult to believe, since shed been raised in a palace--or she was a rather good actress.  He frowned inwardly."

I believe it should be which, not witch.

Thanks for the great works and I can not wait to read more.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: sam_are_i on August 04, 2008, 04:58:46 PM
Just finished the book this morning and really loved it. Brandon doesn't have to worry about a lost sale with me as I will be adding Warbreaker to my collection once it's published.

Since we're constructively criticizing, in the scene where Siri and Susebron finally get down to business, she realizes that Susebron probably can't father any children, then seems to immediately forget about this revelation and worries about the consequences of sleeping with him. From her perspective at this point in the book, danger will only arise if she becomes pregnant, correct? If she knows she's not going to get pregnant by him, why worry? I fully expected her to jump on him as soon as she figured this out, and her remaining concern about getting pregnant seemed inconsistent.

Vasher's ability to manipulate the memories of the priest's daughter also seemed out of place. It showed his compassion, sure, but the child could have been left permanently scarred and the rest of the story would have been completely unaffected, IMO. Additionally, I had been under the impression that Breath could only be used on inanimate/dead objects (Vivenna couldn't Awaken the tree). If Vasher is just more practiced/more powerful than her and can manipulate living matter to make someone forget, why couldn't Breath be used to fully control someone's mind? Maybe this is something intentionally left unexplained?

Finally, I agree with others on this board that the ending was abrupt. One second we're on top of the palace, Vasher's explaining how to save the day, the next he and Vivenna are walking off into the sunset? We don't need to see the battle (it'd be boring anyway reading about Lifeless vs Statues whacking at each other), but what about some cleanup? Two gods are dead, dozens of priests are dead, Susebron and Siri can take an active hand in politics (or transfer his extra Breath to the next God-King and live in peace somewhere, apparently). How does the Idrian king feel about all of this? Pahn Kahl servants not in on the plot? What happens with all of that? I'm not asking for an extended dnouement and an explanation for every little thing, but a little closure maybe?

Just to not be a downer, here's what I liked: Vivenna's character arc seemed natural and well-paced. Lightsong's character struck the right balance between flippancy and seriousness to me. Denth's betrayal genuinely surprised me, as did Bluefingers's (okay, I figured it out just before Siri did). Siri wasn't rebellious in the beginning just for the hell of it, which usually happens when a "rebellious princess" crops up in a story. There's plenty else to praise, but I'm at work right now and should really get back to it :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on August 04, 2008, 08:08:25 PM
I also just got done re-reading it.  I love the new version.  A lot of the old problems seem to have been taken care of.

The only thing I saw that I still had a problem with was the "magic power" Vasher when they rescue the little girl.  I know it was explained earlier that she was just able to tell he was a good guy, but it still seems like he has a power over her.  Maybe you could include a scene where one of the returned (maybe another Lightsong scene?) sees a child for a petition, and have that show that the child is instantly draw to the good (or even just have it so the child is drawn to the returned, which could then provide another foreshadow of that plot twist).  And then if it is Lightsong, have him reflect on the fact that animals and children seem to be comforted by the returned?  Although, that might be too obvious.  *shrug*  That's the only thing really that bugged me.

Over all though, still loved it so much.  I really liked the added foreshadowing, it definatly helped quite a bit.  I also loved the new Lightsong scene.  The game kind of reminded me of the one Hrathen and the crazy prince played in Elantris, which was very amusing.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Nicodemus on August 04, 2008, 11:55:13 PM
<SPOILER ALERT!!!>

First I have to say how disappointed I am that I only just discovered Warbreaker a few days ago, I would have loved to have watched the writing process from the begining. But, as they say - better late than never!

I will not comment on the typos in the 6.1 version, as I trust the more than competant editors at TOR to catch those, however I do have one minor complaint I would like to mention. I felt the whole statues as Kalad's Phantoms thing too predictable. I think the talk of a mystical army waiting the call of the God King was mentioned a little too often, and as a result the moment Vivenna stepped into the D'Denir garden I thought, "oh, that's were they are."

It would have worked better if they had just been left at all the street corners and not had a group of several houndred together especially when using words like, "They stood, as if on guard" and "Warriors to represent peace" to describe them. From that point on I was just waiting for Susebron to call them to action which left the ending a little flat for me.

On the positive side I loved the characters immensely; I found myself waiting in anticipation of the next exchange between Lightsong and, well, just about anyone. Too bad he will not be around for the next book.

Thank you for a thoroughly enjoyable read, keep 'em comming!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: UtopiaGreen01 on August 21, 2008, 02:36:16 AM
Any plans on releasing this on the Amazon Kindle for Kindle download for free?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: LeisureSuitLarry on August 23, 2008, 06:27:46 AM
Utopia, you don't really need him to put out a Kindle-specific version. Just grab one of the mobi versions, connect the K to your computer, and load it up. That's how I read it, and I loved every word of it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: GreenMonsta on August 26, 2008, 12:57:13 AM
MY GOD. Now I'm aware Ive been away for two weeks and it takes some catching up when youre behind but I swear if I hear one more post include a question or statement about "Kindle" I will probably do absolutely nothing about it except maybe complain about repetition and aggravation.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: UtopiaGreen01 on August 26, 2008, 01:02:12 AM
Utopia, you don't really need him to put out a Kindle-specific version. Just grab one of the mobi versions, connect the K to your computer, and load it up. That's how I read it, and I loved every word of it.

Why should I do all the work?  Sanderson is after all the author.  Makes sense if the site had different versions available.  KINDLE!!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on August 26, 2008, 01:44:20 AM
Or you could just not be lazy and take the five minutes to convert it yourself, or spend a couple dollars to use Amazon's converter to convert it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: UtopiaGreen01 on August 26, 2008, 03:54:44 AM
I found a version on mnybks.net and it appers to be a version 4 or version 4.something. Anyways, because of no conversion on this site, I did not read the version 6. You can imagine what I went through. Mistakes and all...  If Mr. Sanderson wants more people to read, wouldn't it be more efficient to offer a MobiPocket version, instead of having people convert themselves?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on August 26, 2008, 06:26:10 AM
Go to his main website to find version 6. Oh wait I'll even give you a link. (http://brandonsanderson.com/portal/Warbreaker)

And MANY people can't afford eBook readers.  Many just have computers.  This is the easiest most efficient way for him to do it.  Besides, HE probably doesn't have control over it becoming Kindle friendly.  That would be Amazon and TOR, because it costs money.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: UtopiaGreen01 on August 26, 2008, 09:11:30 PM
MobiPocket works on Kindle, and other devices.  If someone just converted version 6 using the MobiPocket program, and posted it on the website, people could download.  It doesn't have to be listed in the Kindle store to work on the Kindle.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on August 26, 2008, 09:22:32 PM
With all the complaining you have done you could have had it changed a dozen times over.  Why not just do it yourself.  As I said before, not TOO many people have eBook readers.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: UtopiaGreen01 on August 26, 2008, 10:03:52 PM
With all the complaining you have done you could have had it changed a dozen times over. Why not just do it yourself. As I said before, not TOO many people have eBook readers.

Who can't afford $359 for a Kindle? It had a price drop from $399.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on August 26, 2008, 10:17:12 PM
You would be surprised.  Also, many people don't use them, not because they can't afford them, but because they prefer to not use them, or don't use them frequently enough to purchase them.

This is off topic now though.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: UtopiaGreen01 on August 26, 2008, 10:19:02 PM
I dare you to go to the Kindle forums at amazon.com and say what you just said.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on August 26, 2008, 10:25:49 PM
DUH! Cause everyone uses them.  That's like going to a Trekky convention and trying to say Star Trek is lame.

BUT I'm done talking about this in this thread.  That is not what it's for.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on August 27, 2008, 11:18:19 PM
Ok, first of all Utopia, I am one of those people who can't afford $359 for a Kindle....I don't get that much spare money, for frivolities, in a year, much less all at once. While it sounds interesting, I really don't have a problem reading a book, on paper, the way they began. You use what works for you, and the rest of us will use what works for us....and as was pointed out this is hopelessly off topic.

As for Brandon's book...I still haven't had a chance to finish the most recent version, with work and the kids getting ready for school. But, I have it on my computer and am more than happy with what I have read so far. I will be buying this book, and pretty much anything he puts out in the future.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on August 28, 2008, 01:07:13 AM
I will be buying this book, and pretty much anything he puts out in the future.
ditto to that. I just can't wait for Way of Kings, from little snippets I've heard it is supposed to be the Epic Fantasy we all dream of.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 28, 2008, 06:18:28 AM
Have there been any snippets? I wouldn't go around hyping the book like that. "The Epic Fantasy we all dream of" is really hyperbolic.

Way of Kings (or the Oathshards series) is quite ambitious, and very epicBrandon means to write it to become a classic of fantasy. But it can't be all things to all people and while most of Brandon's fans will like it, I'm not sure all of them will. He means it to be taken seriously. Oh, sure, it has fun parts, but it's not the fun that's meant to make it enjoyable. Warbreaker was meant to be fun. Mistborn was meant to be a cool good read. The Oathshards series is meant to be a classic. Bad things happen to good people and you don't find out why until the end of the series. I'm not talking George R. R. Martin brutality or anything like that, but injustice and an ending to the first book that is just plain not fair. You are meant to love these characters and hurt for them when their life sucks. Brandon wrote Mistborn (first 2 books) purposely not having anyone betray their friends. The Oathshards is founded on betrayal; it's right there in the name. And there's a bunch of magic and stuff...

Hm, I don't know that paragraph will have the enthusiasm-dampening effect I intend. Anyway, there's no use getting psyched up about it. There's no way the first book comes out before 2010 (which actually sounds like "the future" even though it's only 2 years away) and it could be 2011.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on August 28, 2008, 10:20:47 AM
um, yah to me it just sounds better and better. Betrayal? Injustice? Actually sounds rather poetic to me. However i absolutely understand I have some pretty unique tastes and other people may not agree.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on August 28, 2008, 06:13:20 PM
I'm actually alright with bad things happening to good people if it grows the story in a way that makes sense. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: UtopiaGreen01 on August 30, 2008, 10:54:12 PM
Why are people going to buy the book if they already read the earlier version for free?  I mean the plot is basically like the same, right?  I mean who reads the same book twice?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on August 30, 2008, 11:04:42 PM
Seeing as it is the same book you can probably expect a similar plot. However there are plenty of people who read the same book twice or numerous times. There's a certain actor who reads the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy every year. I've read Mistborn at least twice. Give any good book 6-8 months of rest and I'll read it again if i liked it the first time.
Also the online version was really only a draft. It had inconsistencies, typos, spelling changes, etc. Things might happen differently, or even to different people. The printed version will be much more polished.
Also, many people would probably buy it merely to support the author. If they appreciate his work, his willingness to post his entire book for free, his effort into doing the mistborn annotations, etc. and would like him to continue doing that type of thing they would buy it. I'll likely buy it when it comes out.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: LeisureSuitLarry on September 02, 2008, 12:52:59 AM
Why are people going to buy the book if they already read the earlier version for free? I mean the plot is basically like the same, right? I mean who reads the same book twice?

I guess the question is "do you want him to keep writing or to go out and get a job doing something else?" If you want him to keep writing, you have to support him by purchasing his books. Although I've read Warbreaker (version 4.2) I'm interested in what changes there have been since, and I vote with my wallet for him to continue writing instead of going to teach or something. It would be a shame if all the people who read Warbreaker for free didn't go out an purchase the final version.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Stemp on September 02, 2008, 04:49:50 PM
Here's my feedback on Warbreaker. I'm posting this because I got the notion that part of the purpose of posting Warbreaker online was to get reader feedback prior to print publication. My apologies if this has all been said; I purposely didn't read previous posts on the topic yet because I wanted to give my uncontaminated impressions first. It's been a while since I read the book, so these are the impressions that have stuck. (Also I don't know if I'm months too late on this or if there is intention for another draft eventually, but here goes.)

The Good

Overall, great book as always. I enjoyed the premise of living gods and their daily lives and roles in society and politics, and the various ways they do and do not fill the traditional role of gods, and the implication that humans pre-date them and may even have created them. The plot in general, the system of Breaths, the Returned and contructs and statues, etc. all worked really well for me.

I liked Lightsong, Siri, and the God-King best. The relationships between Lightsong and Blushweaver, Lightsong and Llarimar, and Siri and BlueFingers were compelling relationships, and the relationship between Siri and the God-King was particularly memorable. The banter among the mercs was fun too.

The Could-Be-Better

Vivenna's storyline didn't click with me, and I think I've pinpointed two main reasons why.

First, I didn't get a sense of the relationship between Vivenna and Siri, and that gap was prominent because Vivenna spent most of the book telling herself she was in the city to help Siri. Their perspectives on one another were clearly stated, but I don't know how they interact with eachother, and I don't know the nature of their bond. I'm left with the sense that they are distant, not really involved in eachother's lives - that they have loyalty to eachother due to the fact of sisterhood rather than any emotional bond. That's valid and believable - I'd actually say that's a pretty good description of my own relationship with my eldest sister - but I didn't find it compelling.

I'd even say that there is a general shortage of well-developed, positive relationships between females in Sanderson's books. As contrast, there are an abundance of great male / female relationships (which is always nice to see) - both romantic and otherwise - and of good male / male relationships.

Second, Vivenna spends most of the book being reactive rather than (pardon the forthcoming buzzword) "pro-active". Sanderson's protagonists tend to be movers and shakers, people in tough situations who have a vision for how their world ought to be and plans and determination to make it so. To me that's key to making their stories absorbing. Sarene, Raoden, Kelsier, Elend... even Siri develops an agenda and finds creative ways to manuever within the confines of a seemingly hopeless situation. Vivenna has her initial pro-active action of going to the city to help Siri, and comes back around to being pro-active at the end, but in between she's a leaf on the wind. I appreciate that this is probably by design... she's the dupe. But as I was reading I found I didn't care about her part of the story much. I didn't feel that way about Vin, though, who is also a reactionary character, and I'm not sure what the relevant difference is. Maybe its because Vivenna does have the will of a leader and squanders it, whereas Vin doesn't have any expectations of the world or what it should be. Or maybe its because Vin had the good grace to be impressive in her reactionary actions, and the fortune to not be duped. In any case, Vivenna's fall from grace and subsequent epiphany felt a little over-done, a little heavy-handed.

The Ugly

In this book, a young woman is put in a situation where she believes she will be forced to have sex with a man not of her choosing. Now, I know the author's work, so, as I was reading, I knew he must be going somewhere with this repugnant situation, and that it would be worth it to keep reading. My trust was not misplaced. However, if I had not already known the author's other works, I would have closed the book and never opened it again, and I would have avoided his other works too. I can't be the only one who might have that reaction, so its something to keep in mind. On the other hand, plenty of genre authors include rape or the threat of rape in their books and presumabley they wouldn't do so if it hurt sales, so maybe I'm in a small minority regarding my preference to avoid the subject in leisure reading. That's a disheartening thought.

-Eva
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SarahG on September 02, 2008, 05:36:19 PM
Eva, I liked your comments and agreed with most of them.  Another reason I don't care for Vivenna is that sometimes I get the impression she only exists to be taught a lesson about being a self-righteous moral idealist.

Unfortunately, as I understand it, Brandon Sanderson has finished making major revisions to the text and is at the stage where the editors are proofreading for typos and such, so I'm guessing he won't be making a lot more changes based on your comments (or mine a few pages ago).  We came to the table a little too late, which is kind of sad for us.  But there are plenty of readers who loved Vivenna, so maybe it's just a matter of preference, and the book will be a good one even without our help. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: WriterDan on September 03, 2008, 05:41:39 PM
Why are people going to buy the book if they already read the earlier version for free?  I mean the plot is basically like the same, right?  I mean who reads the same book twice?

Don't ask us.  Just look at the history books.  The premise had worked for other authors.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that Brandon took his inspiration for doing this book like this from one of the ones that has, and then took it one step further by not only releasing the book electronically, but letting readers be part of the creation process.  It works.  Need we ask why if we get to be in on something like this?

I'd say, no.  Just enjoy it, and thing will work out like they will.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on September 03, 2008, 06:04:39 PM
Why are people going to buy the book if they already read the earlier version for free? I mean the plot is basically like the same, right? I mean who reads the same book twice?
Because they want to support an author that they love.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Korda on September 04, 2008, 01:33:23 AM
I have read most books I own several times ??? but like everyone says this thread is about warbreaker.
I have just started reading it and I am enjoying it a lot (despite the misspelled words, which I actually find encouraging; there's hope for me yet!)
but one thing doesnt quite add up for me. If the godking was stillborn at birth, then returned and if the returned dont age... wouldnt he still be a pheotus?
I'm so clever I scare myself sometimes ::)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on September 04, 2008, 05:45:32 AM
I have read most books I own several times ??? but like everyone says this thread is about warbreaker.
I have just started reading it and I am enjoying it a lot (despite the misspelled words, which I actually find encouraging; there's hope for me yet!)
but one thing doesnt quite add up for me. If the godking was stillborn at birth, then returned and if the returned dont age... wouldnt he still be a pheotus?
I'm so clever I scare myself sometimes ::)
I THOUGHT THE SAME THING!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SarahG on September 04, 2008, 03:48:44 PM
If the godking was stillborn at birth, then returned and if the returned dont age... wouldnt he still be a pheotus?

As I understand it, people who die as children and Return do grow and mature until they are at what they personally would consider an ideal age (young adult, most of them).  I imagine this would be the same for the Susebron.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: WriterDan on September 04, 2008, 05:19:31 PM
I vaguely remember something about this too.  Even if they're really old when they die and Return, they would grow toward their perfection (grow younger).  That's what I remember anyhow.  Could be completely wrong.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chaos on September 04, 2008, 05:44:14 PM
I have read most books I own several times ??? but like everyone says this thread is about warbreaker.
I have just started reading it and I am enjoying it a lot (despite the misspelled words, which I actually find encouraging; there's hope for me yet!)
but one thing doesnt quite add up for me. If the godking was stillborn at birth, then returned and if the returned dont age... wouldnt he still be a pheotus?
I'm so clever I scare myself sometimes ::)

I started Warbreaker on Monday and had it done on Wednesday. I can definitely say that something did not add up there :P

I'll post my complete opinion of Warbreaker later. Right now, I have my next class. However, I believe it will suffice to say it is completely awesome. To UtopiaGreen01, obviously you don't like Brandon enough if you aren't willing to buy his books to support him. I, for one, am very supportive. I've bought four copies of the original Mistborn (one first edition paperback, one hardback, and two second edition paperbacks), two Elantrises, two Wells of Ascension, and I will guarantee you I will purchase Warbreaker the first day it's available!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on September 04, 2008, 07:04:31 PM
I have read most books I own several times ??? but like everyone says this thread is about warbreaker.
I have just started reading it and I am enjoying it a lot (despite the misspelled words, which I actually find encouraging; there's hope for me yet!)
but one thing doesnt quite add up for me. If the godking was stillborn at birth, then returned and if the returned dont age... wouldnt he still be a pheotus?
I'm so clever I scare myself sometimes ::)

I started Warbreaker on Monday and had it done on Wednesday. I can definitely say that something did not add up there :P


Didn't anyone catch that the physical appearance of the Returned is one of the major plot twists?  It all made perfect sense to me at the end when I understood what was happening and how it was foreshadowed.

Long story short, the Returned get to choose what they look like; their body responds to their self-image.  With practice, they can even make it voluntary (although most don't know that).  Returned who are young grow until they choose to stop, and those who are old can do whatever they please (probably within limits, but still.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on September 04, 2008, 08:54:48 PM
Oh I see.  I'm only like sevenish chapters in.  I'm taking time to review and think about everything before i go on and am writing notes on every chapter as I read so I'm going rather slowly.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Korda on September 05, 2008, 09:51:02 AM
I just finished chapter 30 and it does indeed say that the returned do age until they just reach maturity, then they stop. Im not too sure about the reverse aging but Im still only halfway through
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Relient A on September 10, 2008, 01:22:19 AM
There are a lot of pages... and I don't want to read through them for fear of spoilers. So Sorry if this is a repeat question, but is 6.1 released in anything other than .doc format? Because I don't have MS Word.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 10, 2008, 07:31:15 AM
Check page 2 of Brandon's blog:

http://mistborn.livejournal.com/?skip=10
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: serandin on September 10, 2008, 05:54:13 PM
Just thought I'd mention the spell check error on page 3. Compared to once he'd once held? I assume 'ones he'd once held' is what was meant.

"Vasher had around fifty Breaths, just enough to reach the First Heightening. Having so
few made him feel poor compared to once hed once held, but many would consider fifty Breaths
to be a great treasure."

Hope Mr. Sanderson or his editor reads these posts. :P
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SarahG on September 10, 2008, 06:39:11 PM
Hope Mr. Sanderson or his editor reads these posts. :P

Nope, don't think they do anymore; as I understand it, EUOL is past the stage of taking outside comments and is relying on the editor's proofreaders to catch mistakes like that (of which there are quite a few).  We'll just have to hope they don't miss many!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Relient A on September 10, 2008, 07:26:32 PM
Thank you, Ookla, I actually remember reading that now and thinking I should download it. Heh, I feel dumb now.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chaos on September 11, 2008, 03:26:39 AM
Thank you, Ookla, I actually remember reading that now and thinking I should download it. Heh, I feel dumb now.

By the way, Reliant A, you can go to www.openoffice.org and download OpenOffice for free. It's almost exactly like Microsoft Office, only completely free. If you want a way to open .doc files, OpenOffice will do that fantastically and for the cheapest it can possibly be. :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Wielder on September 21, 2008, 06:54:12 PM
I have read most books I own several times ??? but like everyone says this thread is about warbreaker.
I have just started reading it and I am enjoying it a lot (despite the misspelled words, which I actually find encouraging; there's hope for me yet!)
but one thing doesnt quite add up for me. If the godking was stillborn at birth, then returned and if the returned dont age... wouldnt he still be a pheotus?
I'm so clever I scare myself sometimes ::)

I started Warbreaker on Monday and had it done on Wednesday. I can definitely say that something did not add up there :P


Didn't anyone catch that the physical appearance of the Returned is one of the major plot twists? It all made perfect sense to me at the end when I understood what was happening and how it was foreshadowed.

Long story short, the Returned get to choose what they look like; their body responds to their self-image. With practice, they can even make it voluntary (although most don't know that). Returned who are young grow until they choose to stop, and those who are old can do whatever they please (probably within limits, but still.)

That's kind-of the way I thought about it.  For some reason, I thought they age to their god-like returned form very quickly as well.

I'm not 100% sure though...I'll have to read it again after I am done reading MB 1 and 2 again.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Merlin on October 02, 2008, 06:22:36 AM
I'm positively stunned.
What a book!

I'll call my editor today, I have to translate it!

Yesterday I've almost missed my station, a friemd woke me up just in time :D
And today I think I'll finish the book reading it onscreen in my office - this is more than a book, this is exactly my line of handling the story - everything as I like it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on October 02, 2008, 06:59:16 AM
Do you often recommend books to your editor? I'd be interested to see a thread or blog post from you about how the translated SF market works over there in Poland.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: rhondagr on November 02, 2008, 06:05:13 PM
Hey, I just finished Warbreaker a few days ago and I loved it!  I understand that it is just a rough draft, and there were a few misspelled words but man, it was great.   
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Comatose on November 11, 2008, 02:00:52 AM
I did it! I finally gave in and read Warbreaker.
It was good, not as good as Mistborn, but I liked it.

MINOR SPOILER:

I think I'm gonna have to reread the ending though, it confused me a bit (The bit about the royals all being returned or something?), but the rest was very good. I loved Lightsong, he along with Siri were my favorite characters.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: DaChef on November 11, 2008, 02:07:09 AM
I'm new. so take it easy if i comment on stuff already discussed (50 pages is way too much to go through).

I just finished version 6.1

i loved it. i completed it in 2 days. no sleeping and that was staring at my screen through the night.

As has been said, i wished i found this book earlier. overall i loved the concept and the writing. to the point where, i WILL be buying this book when it comes out, regardless.

not only that, but i intend to find and purchase his other works. and keep up with anything he decides to work on.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Wielder on November 22, 2008, 06:19:13 PM
I'm new. so take it easy if i comment on stuff already discussed (50 pages is way too much to go through).

I just finished version 6.1

i loved it. i completed it in 2 days. no sleeping and that was staring at my screen through the night.

As has been said, i wished i found this book earlier. overall i loved the concept and the writing. to the point where, i WILL be buying this book when it comes out, regardless.

not only that, but i intend to find and purchase his other works. and keep up with anything he decides to work on.

Brandon's plan in effect! People do buy things they have already read! I seriously can't wait until this is released. My copies of Mistborn have already made it through a large group of my friends, this is next.

I did it!  I finally gave in and read Warbreaker.
It was good, not as good as Mistborn, but I liked it.

MINOR SPOILER:

I think I'm gonna have to reread the ending though, it confused me a bit (The bit about the royals all being returned or something?), but the rest was very good.  I loved Lightsong, he along with Siri were my favorite characters.

Forgive me, I haven't read the latest version and it's been a while since I read v 4 and 5, but I can try and take a hack at your question.  As I understood, the royals have a bit of returned blood in them.  I think that means that at one point, there was a returned that could give birth.  The hair changing thing is an ability akin to Vasher's ability to hide his 'ultra-breath.' 

Though, I may just be making stuff up.   ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on November 22, 2008, 08:07:09 PM
I'm new. so take it easy if i comment on stuff already discussed (50 pages is way too much to go through).

I just finished version 6.1

i loved it. i completed it in 2 days. no sleeping and that was staring at my screen through the night.

As has been said, i wished i found this book earlier. overall i loved the concept and the writing. to the point where, i WILL be buying this book when it comes out, regardless.

not only that, but i intend to find and purchase his other works. and keep up with anything he decides to work on.

Brandon's plan in effect!  People do buy things they have already read!  I seriously can't wait until this is released.  My copies of Mistborn have already made it through a large group of my friends, this is next.

I did it!  I finally gave in and read Warbreaker.
It was good, not as good as Mistborn, but I liked it.

MINOR SPOILER:

I think I'm gonna have to reread the ending though, it confused me a bit (The bit about the royals all being returned or something?), but the rest was very good.  I loved Lightsong, he along with Siri were my favorite characters.

Forgive me, I haven't read the latest version and it's been a while since I read v 4 and 5, but I can try and take a hack at your question.  As I understood, the royals have a bit of returned blood in them.  I think that means that at one point, there was a returned that could give birth.  The hair changing thing is an ability akin to Vasher's ability to hide his 'ultra-breath.' 

Though, I may just be making stuff up.   ;D

*Warbreaker spoilers*

That's how I interpreted it too.  Returned can, with practice, change their appearance.  That's why the gods look like they think gods should look like; they're doing it subconsciously.  Ones which have been around as long as Vasher have learned to do it on demand.  People who are descended from Returned (somehow) retain a small bit of this power; one side of effect of it is the ability to change hair color at whim, as well as (apparently) growing hair on demand.

Like many things in Brandon's books, once you have the key, all the other pieces fall into place without any stretching or straining.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on November 25, 2008, 04:36:07 AM
I'm guessing this is a near-final cover design.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TX03Q0U0L._SS500_.jpg)
It's up on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0765320304

Interesting it's being marketed as Sci-Fi Essential.

Oh, I see they only pick one book per month with that label. Nice!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on November 25, 2008, 05:18:49 AM
You know, at first I didn't like the lack of background, but seeing it like that I actually think I do like it.

Does anyone know what font was used for the title, both here and for MB?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: GreenMonsta on November 25, 2008, 10:08:51 PM
I really like the cover. Along with watching the artist paint it. It turned out really good.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: little wilson on November 25, 2008, 10:14:59 PM
I absolutely love that cover. It's flippin' sweet.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Wielder on November 25, 2008, 11:38:23 PM
I absolutely love that cover. It's flippin' sweet.

Agreed!  Oh, I can't wait for the release...I may actually have to take a solid ten hour drive to Provo for this one.  (I was going to do so for HoA, but my friends were too busy to go with...)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on November 26, 2008, 04:12:20 AM
that looks very good. Amazing.

She was on a bed before, was she not? I definitely like this version much better. Very cool.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: dawncawley on November 26, 2008, 05:25:49 AM
I love that cover. Even if I hadn't read the rough copy I would definitely buy it. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: firstRainbowRose on November 26, 2008, 05:45:21 AM
Oh, I can't wait for the release...I may actually have to take a solid ten hour drive to Provo for this one. (I was going to do so for HoA, but my friends were too busy to go with...)

I think it's worth it... but then again, my drive was like ten minutes last time.  However, there were those who drove for eight hours straight and said it was worth it.  (If you don't believe me, ask miyabi)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Wielder on December 02, 2008, 11:25:46 PM
Oh, I can't wait for the release...I may actually have to take a solid ten hour drive to Provo for this one. (I was going to do so for HoA, but my friends were too busy to go with...)

I think it's worth it... but then again, my drive was like ten minutes last time. However, there were those who drove for eight hours straight and said it was worth it. (If you don't believe me, ask miyabi)

miyabi, comments. :)  It would be ten hours one way (twenty total) all within about 30 hours.  Woo!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: zas678 on December 13, 2008, 05:00:04 AM
Quick question-
What is the planet/land name for Warbreaker?

I know that Elantris is Opelon, and Mistborn is Scadrial.

But what is the name for Warbreaker?

Zas
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Roberts on December 15, 2008, 11:06:09 AM
I hope the title doesn't get changed because the big reveal of in the last part, of who Warbreaker was, was one of my favorite moments, as well as Lightsong's final act. It made everything make so much sense
The cover art is beautifully done - it'll be great to have the book in hardback instead of in Microsoft Word!

One thing that was odd was "BioChroma" sounds a little too modern and technical, too Latin/Greek. It's weird when you expect all fantasy to be like Lord of the Rings or King Arthur. But it's not a big deal, it's good to be suprised. 

I never quite understood the differences between Tones and Colors though. Maybe I read too fast.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Kalieri on December 16, 2008, 04:42:59 AM
I had been putting off reading Warbreaker for a while now (only slightly due to an unhealthy Twilight addiction), but I got the flu this weekend and decided this was how I wanted to spend my couch time.

Anyway... well done! I really enjoyed it! I think I do like Warbreaker better than the Mistborn triolgy (though I love that, too), because as Brandon has said, it is a lot lighter.

And I read the 750 some posts ahead of me and I have some thoughts to share....

First, it seemed like many out there were perhaps annoyed by the constant comparison of the sisters, both by the sisters themselves, and by the author's timing of their development. To me, this charcter development was perfect. It seemed to me that this is exacyly how family dynamics work. In families (at least in mine) each sibling was defined in how they compared and contrasted to the others. We found identity in how we were different from each other. Many of us grow out of this as we go off on our own (some don't). But this sort of is Siri and Viv's coming of age story. Neither of them really figure out who they are and make peace with that until they go through these events (and I think Viv mostly found out who she's not, she still has to figue out the rest). So anyway, psychoanalysis aside, I thought that aspect really rang true. Well done. :)

On the other hand, I wish Siri were a little less perfect. We love her right away. I almost wish that she had some internal conflict/quirk that made her a little less loveable. I felt like we were given the opportunity to doubt or question everyone else, but we were always sure of her! Now , don't get me wrong - she and Susebron were my favorite scenes in the book. Just a thought.....

Lastly a random thought. I couldn't picture Susebron's face. I have an image for everyone else. I just would have liked a little more to develop that image. Maybe everyone else was just fine and there's a hole in my imagination. I don't know... :)

Brandon, thanks so much for another great read. I really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Wielder on December 16, 2008, 06:25:18 PM
I hope the title doesn't get changed because the big reveal of in the last part, of who Warbreaker was, was one of my favorite moments, as well as Lightsong's final act. It made everything make so much sense
The cover art is beautifully done - it'll be great to have the book in hardback instead of in Microsoft Word!

One thing that was odd was "BioChroma" sounds a little too modern and technical, too Latin/Greek. It's weird when you expect all fantasy to be like Lord of the Rings or King Arthur. But it's not a big deal, it's good to be suprised.

I never quite understood the differences between Tones and Colors though. Maybe I read too fast.

Yeah, both those moments were epic for me.  I still picture that moment (the Warbreaker reveal) in my mind all the time.  Oh, I love that book.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: HellCold on December 30, 2008, 11:43:05 AM
Just finished the book, giving a review later (I still can't contain my thoughts)

But I have a couple of questions that really need answering right now. First, when Vasher sneaked into Mercystar's palace, what was he after?

Second, who's the second intruder who entered and killed the servant right after Vasher sneaked in, as Lightsong had concluded?

Anybody knows?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Wielder on December 30, 2008, 05:07:26 PM
Just finished the book, giving a review later (I still can't contain my thoughts)

But I have a couple of questions that really need answering right now. First, when Vasher sneaked into Mercystar's palace, what was he after?

Second, who's the second intruder who entered and killed the servant right after Vasher sneaked in, as Lightsong had concluded?

Anybody knows?

Bold: I think he was just curious.  It means that their 'Gods' were hiding something.  Why would they need underground passage ways?  You use those to conceal your movement...and the 'Gods' shouldn't have to conceal anything.  Those are just my thoughts...  (It's been a while since I read it...so...meh)

The second intruder...I'm not exactly sure if I remember that part...I'm guessing it was Denth.  Or Bluefingers.  Probably Denth though...he's the agile one.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Kainan on January 03, 2009, 05:21:07 PM
Hi all,

New face here  ;D I downloaded the latest Warbreaker doc from Brandon's site and so far, i like it (around page 30  ;) ).

I have not read all the 51 pages of this thread because i did not want to spoil my reading pleasure (I'm sure you guys have discussed a lot in here). The problem with that is, that i might ask a question that has already been asked (and answered) ... so I'm sorry if that's the case.

So here goes:

Is there a map somewhere for the Warbreaker world? I know that Brandon has maps for Elantris and Mistborn...so i hope he has one for this as well. Why? First, because i looove a good map  ;) Second, i like to follow the story on a geographical level as well.

Thanks in advance

Cheers
Kainan

P.S.: A spell check for a forum-post?! Nice!  ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Hero of Ages on January 04, 2009, 06:58:24 AM
You will most likely have to wait until the book comes out in the spring for a map of the Warbreaker world.  As far as I know EUOL hasn't released one yet.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Inquisitor on January 11, 2009, 05:07:40 AM
Just finished it, and I LOVE it! My favorite character has to be Nightblood, what with his "Would you like to kill someone today?" introductions. Totally awesome.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: RedMars11 on January 13, 2009, 02:24:35 AM
Okay, I haven't read this thread nor the book because I hate reading large texts online, and I am so glad a hardcover is coming out, but some questions regardless:

1.  Does this tie into the larger universe/multiverse/god knows what Mr. Sanderson's been building up in Elantris and Mistborn?

2.  Is it stand alone like Elantris, or clearly meant to lead to something else like the Final Empire but especially the Well of Ascension?

3.  Is the ending more along the lines of an Elantris, or the Hero of Ages?

Please don't bite my head off, since I'm probably repeating previously asked questions.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on January 13, 2009, 03:26:46 AM
1. Yes. Hoid does make an appearance.

2. I believe that Sanderson has a sequel planned, but the book wraps up very nicely with few loose ends. I would consider it more like Elantris in that respect then Final Empire or Well of Ascension.

3. Do you mean as far as deaths go? I don't want to spoil anything for you but if I recall correctly no main characters die.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: RedMars11 on January 13, 2009, 03:30:05 AM
Thanks much.  Everything I wanted to know.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SarahG on January 13, 2009, 05:17:07 PM
3. Do you mean as far as deaths go? I don't want to spoil anything for you but if I recall correctly no main characters die.

I would disagree with that last statement, unless you're defining "main character" very narrowly.  However, I would agree that the ending of Warbreaker is generally a happy rather than a bittersweet one - more like Elantris than Mistborn.  After all, some people we like die in Elantris too.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Reaves on January 13, 2009, 11:03:11 PM
Oh wow, I totally forgot about him!! I was about to ask who died when I remembered. Has it really been that long since I've read it!!??
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Dount Cooku on January 14, 2009, 08:49:15 PM
Oh wow, I totally forgot about him!! I was about to ask who died when I remembered. Has it really been that long since I've read it!!??

Memory can be a fickle thing for sure.  Anything I've done more than a month ago is grounds for complete forgetfulness.

Actually, my problem isn't with memory.  My memory is perfect.  It's the retrieval system that's a bit flaky. :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: thelsdj on January 29, 2009, 12:50:26 AM
Quick bug report in version 4.2:
Quote
Women chasing runaway geese, men pulling donkeys laden with spring seed, and children leading sheep the village on their way to pasture.

'leading sheep the village on their way' extraneous 'the village'?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: SarahG on January 29, 2009, 05:07:29 PM
Or perhaps he meant "through the village".  Anyway, I don't think either Brandon Sanderson or his editors look at this thread for help at this point in the process.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Swiggly on February 11, 2009, 09:09:58 AM
Ah, you underestimate him. [:
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: alSeen on February 16, 2009, 11:45:19 PM
i read it before i joined this site. AWESOME BOOK!!!! the best Brandon Sanderson has wrote in my opinion.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ishara on February 25, 2009, 03:04:01 AM
Love the book and love the idea behind it.
Do need to point out an error wich is rather big. It's om page 627

Lets go, Denth said, moving out into the darkness.
Denth should be Vasher. It throws me totally offbalance that she (Vivienne) should follow Denth all of a sudden when he wishes her harm...

Other then that. Great read so far. Keep up the good work and thanks for the stories.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Touya on March 02, 2009, 10:05:10 PM
I've Just read Warbreaker 4.2 and I really enjoyed it, I'll be buying it when it comes out in hardback, since I don't like paperbacks. I have a tendency to read stories I like to death and I can getting much more mileage out of a good hardback (or more accurately, after a year or two I will still have what can still be technically classified as a book).

I'm really not very good with words, since I'm terrible at all forms of translating thoughts into a medium that is anywhere near coherent enough so that others can understand, so I ask you to forgive me beforehand.

Just two things during my reading that distracted me enough to pulled me out of the story, perhaps minor things, but significant enough to me that I thought I'd mention them.

1)
Ch1 pg13
Fortunately, her father had four living children, and Siri--at seventeen years of age--was the youngest. Fafen, the daughter just older than Siri, had done the family duty and become a monk. Above Fafen was Ridger, the eldest son. He would inherit the throne. And then there was Vivenna.

This suggest that the age of the four siblings, from youngest to oldest is Siri>Fafen>Ridger>Vivenna.

Ch44 Pg305
Ridger was right above me.
Then there was Fafen.
“After Fafen,” Siri said, “there’s just the eldest, Vivenna.


This suggest that the age of the four siblings, from youngest to oldest is Siri>Ridger>Fafen>Vivenna.

Am I misunderstanding one of the sections? and if not, could to tell me which one is it since it made me stop reading and had me jumping back and forth and rereading each part a few times trying to figure it out. As I said, probably a minor thing.

2)
Ch43 Pg293
He didn’t reply. “The BioChromatic Breaths you had,” he said. “You gave them to Denth?” She paused, thinking. “Yes.” He glanced at her, raising an eyebrow. “No,” she admitted, looking away. “I put them in the shawl I was wearing.”

He raised an eyebrow. “You escaped those ropes of mine without Awakening them?” She shook her head. “I guessed that Command.”

He just shook his head, pointing toward the shawl. “Your Breath to mine,” he said. “That’s the Command you want.” She laid her hand on the shawl and said the words. Immediately, everything changed.


Here you remind me that both the shawl and the rope have had breath put into them, but only show the breath in the shawl being recovered.
This left me a little excited with the feeling that the breath in the rope will be mildly important later on.

Ch46 Pg310
Time to practice, then, she thought, returning to the room. Inside, she pulled out a piece of rope--the one that Vasher had used to tie her up, the first thing that she had Awakened. She’d since retrieved the Breath from it.

Then 3 chapters later that I am just told that the breath in the rope was simply recovered earlier.
Once again perhaps a minor thing but it made me stop reading and think "Oh.........why didn't it just say that earlier?"
I was a little disappointed at how anti-climactic it was and it left me a little tainted in regards to plot items about forgotten breaths in object discovered at a later time.

Ch56 Pg379
His cloak slid slightly off his shoulder, falling against her cheek.
It couldn’t be, she thought. I escaped from him. I tried to Awaken his cloak, but used a bad Command. Could he have been dumb enough to keep wearing it?


Because I had been tainted earlier, instead of thinking "Oh! Nice one!" it reminded me of the disappointment from earlier and my mind I simply thought "Meh." and ruined this scene slightly for me.

I don't mean to criticise, just offering some feedback.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to read one of your books for free to see if I would enjoy your writing style and I have enjoyed it immensely.

I look forward to purchasing and reading Misborn, and should I enjoy those, your other books as well.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: silver_kage on March 21, 2009, 10:49:40 AM
WOW!!!!
This book was spectacular! It is definately one of the best that I have read. . . .
It reminds of the first book in the mistborn series back when kelsier (my favourite character) was still alive, while the next two mistborn were good they weren't quite as good without Kel in there.
But this was spectacular I particularly like the whole denth twist, whilst I liked him I wasn't happy with Vasher playing the role of an antagonist and the sinister feel I felt from Denth and his team when they came out was perfect.
I want more!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Eldiroth on March 24, 2009, 09:38:01 PM
I'm not very far into version 6.1 so far, although I've read (and loved) the Mistborn books and Elantris. This is shaping up to be another great book! Just a quick editing note:

In version 6.1, Chapter 4, the following sentence: "The priest was didnt wait for a response, he just turned his horse and started back down the highway toward the city." needs to have the word "was" deleted.

Probably would have been caught in the editing process anyway, just pointing it out! ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Aryela on March 30, 2009, 09:05:29 AM
Does Brandon read this?  He hasn't posted in this thread for a while...


Anyway, if you do read this, Brandon, I have sent email feedback.


Lovely story!  I really enjoyed the character inner conflicts.  Very well portrayed.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ogge on April 07, 2009, 07:53:15 AM
Great reading! cheers! :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Renoard on April 07, 2009, 02:01:55 PM
I'd imagine EUOL is really busy right now.  He's talked about a mind numbing amount of work that has been growing nearly exponentially for about two years on his web site.

I do not know the man, but knowing a little bit about things work I imagine the following is how things fall.
Just the highlights:
Family
Warbreaker Edits
Final edits of the WoT split (which probably includes small rewrites on demand to fix issues).
Mistborne (sp?) merchandising to authorize or not.
Fan Mail
New Employee orientation (read that as letting someone else into the dark recesses of the laboratory. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!) :P

I have to say he probably needs someone to manage his business contacts and fan mail and personal time for forums or time wasting is probably not very accessible right now. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 08, 2009, 05:28:01 AM
Warbreaker is long edited and in the can. It's probably at the printer by now. It will be out in two months, so the time is about right for that. It may even be finishing up and heading for distribution.

If you follow Twitter you can see Brandon is working on rapid final tGS edits.

He's definitely not reading the forum. If you click on his profile, you can see he hasn't logged in since November 9th. He is just too dang busy. That may change in the future, but it may not happen until after all 3 WoT books are done.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on April 28, 2009, 02:34:48 AM
Does anyone know the exact or target date of release?  I need to know so that I can make other plans for June.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on April 28, 2009, 03:41:24 AM
Amazon says June 9.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: IngtarWhoStoleChristmas on April 28, 2009, 06:10:46 PM
Brandon's page says 6/15/09 so I imagine in there somewhere
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vincent_y79 on May 10, 2009, 11:20:17 PM
With the book being available as preorder from retailers, does anyone know if there will be direct sales from brandonsanderson.com? I would like to have the option of having the book signed.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Miyabi on May 11, 2009, 01:13:47 AM
That usually doesn't happen until about 6 months to about 2 years after the book comes out and Brandon manages to get some left over hard covers.  Then he sells them that way. 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ehran on May 11, 2009, 02:14:18 AM
For HoA he arranged for a local bookstore to sell them signed.  People placed their orders and he went in, signed them, then the store shipped them out.  That's how I got my copy signed.  And I received it within a couple days of release.  So you might not be able to buy it from his website but I'm pretty sure you will be able to get a signed copy at time of release.

I don't know that this would happen with the WoT books though.  I doubt Brandon's hands could stand up to the number of signed requests he would get for those books. 

 :P
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Telzen on May 22, 2009, 05:00:27 AM
Brandon's right about people buying books even if they can get them for free. Just learned about Warbreaker and it sounds real awesome. I'm going to just go ahead and order it since I'm sure I'd want a hard copy anyway.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: IngtarWhoStoleChristmas on May 22, 2009, 01:32:50 PM
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/788/Warbreaker-Sighed-and-Numbered-Copies

Just ordered mine :-)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ehran on May 22, 2009, 08:01:23 PM
I don't think I'm going to spring for a signed book this time, although I fully intend to buy it the week of release to help with sales numbers.

When the final WoT book comes out I may get a signed one of those.  Or the new WoK series.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: IngtarWhoStoleChristmas on May 22, 2009, 11:09:00 PM
Ehran,

Is there a price difference? It looked to me like Sam Weller is discounting it enough that it pays for the shipping, so you basically just pay retail. I'm ok with that personally, and I'm horribly busy so won't make it to a book store for at least a month
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ehran on May 23, 2009, 01:48:06 AM
Most places discount books from cover price.   It's the shipping and handling fees that tend to add up.  These days, with the economy the way it is, and since I already have one signed BS novel, just seems more prudent to save where I can.

I mean, I'm already buying a copy of a "free" book.  Gotta save my cash somewhere.  :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: IngtarWhoStoleChristmas on May 25, 2009, 03:55:52 PM
Ah I understand, I just so seldom buy a new book when it comes out and then its usually only hardcover that I don't really pay too much attention to the pricing schemes they use ;-)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: vincent_y79 on May 29, 2009, 04:33:29 AM
Brandon's right about people buying books even if they can get them for free. Just learned about Warbreaker and it sounds real awesome. I'm going to just go ahead and order it since I'm sure I'd want a hard copy anyway.

True. I've read the book 3 times already as there's usually nothing me to do working at night but be on the computer.  Even with the number of times I've gone through it I'm still getting the book because I like well enough that I want to support the writer and have a solid copy.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/788/Warbreaker-Sighed-and-Numbered-Copies

Just ordered mine :-)

Thanks IngtarWasFramed, I'm going to get my copy through them.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ogge on June 04, 2009, 12:48:13 PM
It's been awhile since I read Warbreaker (the free one) and I'm planning to buy the book once it's released.

I have a question though, (pardon med for not reading this whole thred)

is the onlineversion the same one as the new release?

I can't remember the end of the book, was it even in the free version?


Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: IngtarWhoStoleChristmas on June 04, 2009, 02:58:40 PM
From what I've heard there are some minor changes/additional scenes in the Hardcover release, but these will be inlcuded in another e-book release as well.

Yes the ending was in the original and you can order it today through many different sources :-) Comes out next Tuesday!!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Euphrasie on June 04, 2009, 09:22:28 PM
I can't wait!  I get my 'free' hardcover of a 'free' book by using Amazon gift certificates from taking surveys.   :D 
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: maxonennis on June 09, 2009, 06:08:04 PM
I started to read Warbreaker when I first joined this site, starting with the first draft. I got six or seven chapters through before I made up my mind that I would wait until the book was published before finishing (I wanted to read the finished product after cleaned up without any spoilers to ruin the story for me). Did anyone else do this, or am I just weird?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on June 09, 2009, 06:26:28 PM
No, I think quite a few people did that. I've heard several say it and imagine a lot more did it than said it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: maxonennis on June 09, 2009, 06:31:47 PM
Im glad that I did. Im almost halfway finished now and I could see s huge difference in those first half dozen chapters.  :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pygmalion on June 11, 2009, 05:44:14 PM
This book is so amazing. I've been dying to read it but I waited for it to officially come out. I just don't like reading things on the computer. It was well worth the wait and worth every penny.


**SPOILERS** for anyone who hasn't finished yet.....







I was COMPLETELY taken in by Denth. It was great. I was right there with Vivenna going "WHAT?!" I was forming this whole different picture of him in my mind and then, wham! He turns out to be the bad guy! I love being surprised like that. I love getting so caught up in the story with the characters that I also don't pick up on stuff that they should have.

Also, the pacing! I liked how different it was. I mean, we got well over half way through the book before we got to really see and delve too deeply into the magic system, which is something that normally comes much closer to the beginning. But it worked here.

I loved Lightsong's comments and just his whole story. I loved the setting. And Nightblood? How cool is that? Brilliant. Actually, I could have just saved myself a lot of time here and said there wasn't anything about it I didn't like. I really just want to read it again. Five stars and two major thumbs up!!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: maxonennis on June 11, 2009, 06:58:03 PM
I was COMPLETELY taken in by Denth. It was great. I was right there with Vivenna going "WHAT?!" I was forming this whole different picture of him in my mind and then, wham! He turns out to be the bad guy! I love being surprised like that. I love getting so caught up in the story with the characters that I also don't pick up on stuff that they should have.

I actually guessed this plot twist. *Elantris Spoilers* I had guessed that Denth would pull an Ahan. It made too much sense.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on June 11, 2009, 07:35:27 PM
I was COMPLETELY taken in by Denth. It was great. I was right there with Vivenna going "WHAT?!" I was forming this whole different picture of him in my mind and then, wham! He turns out to be the bad guy! I love being surprised like that. I love getting so caught up in the story with the characters that I also don't pick up on stuff that they should have.

I actually guessed this plot twist. *Elantris Spoilers* I had guessed that Denth would pull an Ahan. It made too much sense.

It seems to me that Denth and Ahan are completely difference characters.  Denth intended to be evil from the start of the book.  Ahan was just stupid.  Different motivation, different skills.  Denth is a whole lot scarier.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: maxonennis on June 11, 2009, 08:21:10 PM


It seems to me that Denth and Ahan are completely difference characters. Denth intended to be evil from the start of the book. Ahan was just stupid. Different motivation, different skills. Denth is a whole lot scarier.

Motives are different, results are the same= it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on June 12, 2009, 04:56:02 PM


It seems to me that Denth and Ahan are completely difference characters. Denth intended to be evil from the start of the book. Ahan was just stupid. Different motivation, different skills. Denth is a whole lot scarier.

Motives are different, results are the same= it doesn't matter.

Of course it does.  Nobody felt morally obliged to kill Ahan after his betrayal.  Also the betrayal wasn't nearly as subtle.  Denth absolutely had to die.  He was too dangerous.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: zas678 on June 12, 2009, 06:19:51 PM
I think there's a huge difference

Ahan's betrayel was petty, it was just to prove a point to Roial. Denth's betrayl was to start a war.

Also, we didn't really care about Ahan.  Not like we grew attached to Denth.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: maxonennis on June 12, 2009, 06:44:39 PM
*Mistborn, Elantris, & Warbreaker Spoilers*

Ahan, Denith, and Ten Soon (I don't know if that's spelled right) all served the same perpose. Each of them had different personalities and motives, but they did the same thing so it really doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: jahmes on June 12, 2009, 06:56:56 PM
hello, who's ahan? and ten soon? just finish reading the adobe acrobat version... got me hooked for about 8 hours, and its my first time reading a sanderson... i must admit tho, i wonder how the WoT rendition wud turn out, now that iv read one of his books.. the humor is good, particularly Lightsong's chapters.. but... I hope he'l get Mat Cuathon right...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: maxonennis on June 12, 2009, 06:58:35 PM
hello, who's ahan? and ten soon? just finish reading the adobe acrobat version... got me hooked for about 8 hours, and its my first time reading a sanderson... i must admit tho, i wonder how the WoT rendition wud turn out, now that iv read one of his books.. the humor is good, particularly Lightsong's chapters.. but... I hope he'l get Mat Cuathon right...

Sorry about that, I didn't lable it. Those are Mistborn 2 and Elantris spoilers.  :-[
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: jahmes on June 12, 2009, 07:12:55 PM
i see now :), i hope i can read more sandersons soon... Warbreaker was meant to be one novel, right? and sanderson wrote it in a way that if it hits, he could readily write it in a sequel and some... I have quite a number of fantasy up my memory banks... and honestly, Warbreakers is not that an impressive a story... if he could turn it to a trilogy tho... maybe the sequels could redeem the lack I find in Book 1, hehe  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: zas678 on June 12, 2009, 08:42:52 PM
**SPOILER**

I have a theory....
I think that Clod used to be Arsteel!


Quote
He (Clod) moved with a fluidity she had rarely
seen, his skill matching the brief moment of dazzling speed that Denth had
displayed in the restaurant.
pg.337

Quote
Denth glanced at Clod. Theyre not all equal. Most Lifeless, theyre just
made out of what ever body happens to be around. If you pay good money,
you can get one who was very skillful in life.
  pg 357

Quote
It shouldnt have happened, Jewels said. Arsteel was a brilliant duelist
almost as good as Denth. Vashers never been able to beat either of them.
pg 197

Quote
Vasher didnt use the sword, Jewels said. There was no blackness to
Arsteels wounds.
pg 314

Since Jewels and Denth have seen Arsteel, they might have been able to pay someone money to make Arsteel a Lifeless for a bodyguard.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Euphrasie on June 12, 2009, 09:14:34 PM
**SPOILER**

I have a theory....
I think that Clod used to be Arsteel!

Since Jewels and Denth have seen Arsteel, they might have been able to pay someone money to make Arsteel a Lifeless for a bodyguard.


I very much agree.  I first had suspicions when Jewels is talking to him when they make the comment, "She just does that sometimes."
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on June 12, 2009, 11:34:20 PM
*Mistborn, Elantris, & Warbreaker Spoilers*

Ahan, Denith, and Ten Soon (I don't know if that's spelled right) all served the same perpose. Each of them had different personalities and motives, but they did the same thing so it really doesn't matter.

******More spoilers******






Besides the bit where you have to deal with them afterwards.  Yeah, afterwards.  They weren't just a single role in each book.  They were part of the tapestry that made up the whole, and each had multiple roles to play.  You're focusing on a single role as though it were the entire character, and don't seem to understand why people don't accept this as a decent characterization.  Brandon is much better than that!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pygmalion on June 13, 2009, 05:33:59 PM
**SPOILER**

I have a theory....
I think that Clod used to be Arsteel!


Quote
He (Clod) moved with a fluidity she had rarely
seen, his skill matching the brief moment of dazzling speed that Denth had
displayed in the restaurant.
pg.337

Quote
Denth glanced at Clod. Theyre not all equal. Most Lifeless, theyre just
made out of what ever body happens to be around. If you pay good money,
you can get one who was very skillful in life.
pg 357

Quote
It shouldnt have happened, Jewels said. Arsteel was a brilliant duelist
almost as good as Denth. Vashers never been able to beat either of them.
pg 197

Quote
Vasher didnt use the sword, Jewels said. There was no blackness to
Arsteels wounds.
pg 314

Since Jewels and Denth have seen Arsteel, they might have been able to pay someone money to make Arsteel a Lifeless for a bodyguard.


Oooh.... that makes so much sense. Duh...  it seems so obvious now!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: jahmes on June 15, 2009, 03:47:15 AM
and I think Clod's possesses some remaining intelligence (seems he can recognize the princess) which only shows that he is not your ordinary Lifeless
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ruthie on June 15, 2009, 04:19:47 PM
Yup, I was pretty sure for most of the book that Clod was Arsteel. Also, the moment I knew that a) gods can give their Breath to heal someone and b) Susebron had no tongue, I knew that Lightsong would die to heal Susebron at the moment when everything was going wrong. I was so pleased when it turned out that way.

I also guessed Denth was evil from the moment I found out he hated Vasher. Vasher didn't seem evil, just strange. If Vasher's not evil, then Denth must be.

I still really liked it. It took longer to pick up in pace than some of his other books, but I think the ending redeemed it.

Vivenna drove me crazy for most of the book, but then, so did Jane Austen's Emma, and I like that book in retrospect. At least they both grew up (Vivenna more than Emma).

Did anyone else notice that the couples have alliterative names (well, except for Blushweaver and Lightsong)? I had to laugh at that. Was that on purpose?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Tage on June 16, 2009, 07:50:11 AM
Did anyone else notice that the couples have alliterative names (well, except for Blushweaver and Lightsong)? I had to laugh at that. Was that on purpose?

Wow, I can't believe I got through the whole book and didn't notice something as simple as that.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: ryos on June 16, 2009, 07:22:02 PM
Did anyone else notice that the couples have alliterative names (well, except for Blushweaver and Lightsong)? I had to laugh at that. Was that on purpose?

Wow, I can't believe I got through the whole book and didn't notice something as simple as that.

Heh, me neither! Fun.

I wouldn't really call Blushweaver and Lightsong a "couple". Llarimar and Lightsong have more couple dynamics, even if neither is gay. ;D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ruthie on June 16, 2009, 07:39:37 PM
Okay, some questions and issues that I've thought about now a few days after reading the book:

1. If Vasher took the extreme caution of advising priests to cut out God Kings' tongues to prevent them from using their Breaths, I found it a bit out of character for him to meet Susebron once, see that his tongue was healed and thus he controlled his own power, and give him even more power in the form of the D'Delir. I mean, I know why he did it. The part I don't get is why Vasher would just walk away from Hallandren afterwards, leaving Susebron to his immense power. I mean, yeah, Susebron's a good guy. But he's extremely innocent and thus extremely malleable. Who's to say he won't become corrupted by his power or swayed by someone corrupt?

2. If Denth is the same thing Vasher is, why does he apparently have only one Breath? Did he store his extras in an object and then feed on one per week to stay alive?

3. Who the heck is on the cover? I'd guess Siri, but the BioChromatic breath issuing from her mouth makes me think it's an Awakener and thus Vivenna. And the sword doesn't look like Nightblood, so maybe it's the sword Vivenna holds briefly? But by that time, she wasn't wearing dresses anymore, and she probably never wore anything like that dress in her life.

I'm overthinking it, right? :D
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Meetshield on June 16, 2009, 07:59:17 PM
Well I just stumbled upon Brandon Sanderson on the VERY Day that WarBreaker was released. I was looking for more info about TWOT...

Anyway, I decided to buy his book because of the dedication he showed to the spirit of TWOT, in support of him.

I must say that I got the best deal of my life. I absolutely loved it!

The Hero's of the story male and female had their weaknesses and their issues, the magic system is rather interesting, but the real trick, is to make such a long book seem like it is too short!! It feels like a bunch of short books all bound together into one, the story arc really has a lot of meat in it. I am not saying that the book is broken up, but on the contrary it flows very well. The key to making it seem so short is the fact that the reader gets what the reader wants throughout the story.

The key to Fantasy is to reveal things slowely, giving the reader time to ponder the revelations, which Brandon has mastered.

What an exciting author you are Brandon!

*Spoilers for WarBreaker*

Now to the discussion - I though for sure that the Pahn Kahl were planning to turn Siri into a lifeless and use her as a horrific Lifeless puppet to taunt the Idrians into War.

I had a hard time tracking where all the breaths went, into a rope, into a shawl, out of a shawl, out of a rope, into a cloak etc.  It seemed that Vasher was more careful about his use of breath and retreaval of same, but Vivenna was spending it everywhere, and wasting it often enough.  I felt sure that there was a store of it somewhere that she should have access too if she or I could remember where we left it!!  It would be nice if they could find a command to have an awakened object hold on to the breath for a time and then release it back to them wherever they are...

The cover has to be Vivenna, because of the sword...  But although the cover is beautiful, it doesn't look like fantasy, it does a poor job selling the book.  I was looking for the book and walked right past it.



Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Meetshield on June 16, 2009, 08:13:50 PM
1. If Vasher took the extreme caution of advising priests to cut out God Kings' tongues to prevent them from using their Breaths, I found it a bit out of character for him to meet Susebron once, see that his tongue was healed and thus he controlled his own power, and give him even more power in the form of the D'Delir. I mean, I know why he did it. The part I don't get is why Vasher would just walk away from Hallandren afterwards, leaving Susebron to his immense power. I mean, yeah, Susebron's a good guy. But he's extremely innocent and thus extremely malleable. Who's to say he won't become corrupted by his power or swayed by someone corrupt?

I hadn't really thought about it, but he didn't have much choice, and he did look to Vivenna for confirmation before giving in to her request.  He was reluctant, even wary, which I'd say is rather in character for him.  Why did he walk away?  Pandora's box.  He had just trusted the God King, no point in sticking around and trying to take it back.  He was needed elsewhere.  He did his part to redeem himself, and now it was in their hands.


2. If Denth is the same thing Vasher is, why does he apparently have only one Breath? Did he store his extras in an object and then feed on one per week to stay alive?

Yeah this one seems to be a hole in the story to me as well.  If he had enough breath stored up somewhere, and he used to be a skilled user of same, then why not at some point reveal his true power and capability?  And the rapture at receiving the 50 breath or so at the end, didn't seem that it would affect him so if he had a store of breath somewhere he was using on a consistent basis, then he should be used to receiving the breath and releasing it back into his storage object weekly.  At least someone as trained as him should be able to keep his wits enough to not be killed by the rapture.

3. Who the heck is on the cover? I'd guess Siri, but the BioChromatic breath issuing from her mouth makes me think it's an Awakener and thus Vivenna. And the sword doesn't look like Nightblood, so maybe it's the sword Vivenna holds briefly? But by that time, she wasn't wearing dresses anymore, and she probably never wore anything like that dress in her life.

The problem with the cover is that it is too dark, no scenery, so while it has quite the dramatic affect, it doesn't take place in any of our scenes in the book, and doesn't convey to the buyer the scope and depth of the books imagery.  It looks like a book about a silly girl, with a sword, in way over her head, but not a fantasy book about war and magic and politics.  I think its pretty, but needs a background.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Ruthie on June 17, 2009, 12:01:12 AM
If I had seen the cover but never known anything about the book, I probably would have read it for the cover's sake alone. It's stunning and unexpected, and it makes me wonder what's going on. Why is her hair white? What's coming out of her mouth? Etc., etc. I just wish I knew, after reading the book, who it was.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: little wilson on June 17, 2009, 12:08:33 AM
I'm pretty sure the character's supposed to be Siri. Here's the thread where the cover was discussed (back around the time the art for it was first released).

http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5942.0

EDIT: Looking back over that thread, it IS Siri. The artist himself (Dan Dos Santos) eventually posts, and says that it's supposed to be Siri in her wedding dress.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on June 17, 2009, 12:39:35 AM
Quote
1. If Vasher took the extreme caution of advising priests to cut out God Kings' tongues to prevent them from using their Breaths, I found it a bit out of character for him to meet Susebron once, see that his tongue was healed and thus he controlled his own power, and give him even more power in the form of the D'Delir. I mean, I know why he did it. The part I don't get is why Vasher would just walk away from Hallandren afterwards, leaving Susebron to his immense power. I mean, yeah, Susebron's a good guy. But he's extremely innocent and thus extremely malleable. Who's to say he won't become corrupted by his power or swayed by someone corrupt?

Did Vasher suggest that particular measure, of did he just vaguely suggest that the power shouldn't be used, and the priests ran with it from there?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Pygmalion on June 18, 2009, 12:21:17 AM
If I had seen the cover but never known anything about the book, I probably would have read it for the cover's sake alone. It's stunning and unexpected, and it makes me wonder what's going on. Why is her hair white? What's coming out of her mouth? Etc., etc. I just wish I knew, after reading the book, who it was.

I agree completely. The cover is absolutely beautiful, and I think it stands out. I know it popped for me on the shelf of the bookstore when I bought it.

Also, I think I agree with happyman that it may have been a suggestion by Vasher. But there was that one line I think where he says to Susebron "I'm the reason your tongue was cut out." Or something like that, right?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Adarian on June 20, 2009, 09:07:40 PM
Quote
1. If Vasher took the extreme caution of advising priests to cut out God Kings' tongues to prevent them from using their Breaths, I found it a bit out of character for him to meet Susebron once, see that his tongue was healed and thus he controlled his own power, and give him even more power in the form of the D'Delir. I mean, I know why he did it. The part I don't get is why Vasher would just walk away from Hallandren afterwards, leaving Susebron to his immense power. I mean, yeah, Susebron's a good guy. But he's extremely innocent and thus extremely malleable. Who's to say he won't become corrupted by his power or swayed by someone corrupt?

Did Vasher suggest that particular measure, of did he just vaguely suggest that the power shouldn't be used, and the priests ran with it from there?


Unless I have overlooked some finer points--entirely possible since I was reading most of this half-asleep due to my inabiltiy to put it down--I think that this particular statement is being taken too literally. I posit that what Vasher meant when he said "I am the one responsible for you having your tongue cut out," was not that he suggested or ordered it to be done; but rather, that because of the events in the past for which he was responsible, the priests saw it necessary to cut out the God-King's tongue to curb the danger of a too-powerful Awakener.

p.s. I agree with all of you who have said that Clod might be Arsteel. When Vasher is teaching Vivenna about BioChromatic entities, she mentions that Denth has a Lifeless. Vasher becomes very quiet and says "Yes, I know." Vivenna notices "a strange look in his eyes". You know then that Vasher knew the person who became Clod. Who else but Arsteel?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Adolla on June 23, 2009, 09:06:29 PM

Yeah this one seems to be a hole in the story to me as well. If he had enough breath stored up somewhere, and he used to be a skilled user of same, then why not at some point reveal his true power and capability? And the rapture at receiving the 50 breath or so at the end, didn't seem that it would affect him so if he had a store of breath somewhere he was using on a consistent basis, then he should be used to receiving the breath and releasing it back into his storage object weekly. At least someone as trained as him should be able to keep his wits enough to not be killed by the rapture.


When Vivienna reclaimed the breaths Denth told her the long you go without the harder the more the rush gets to you when you take them back.  He was holding onto only one breath in order to blend in.  If he chose to take on more breaths he would have stood out and possible caught by Vasher before he was ready.  Also Viv would have noticed and not trusted him.  So he had been weeks without even the first heightening when Viv gave him those breaths.   It would be like a gut punch, there just isn't much recovering from it if you weren't prepared for it.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Jurisprude on June 25, 2009, 10:29:28 PM
First off ... I became recently aware of Brandon through TWoT goings on and such; stumbled across the Warbreaker ebook, downloaded it and devoured it in 2 days time. Really enjoyed it ... very creative, unique magic system, nice characters and character arcs, so forth and so on, effusive praise, effusive praise. Nice job.

Now ... ****SPOILER ALERT****

I just started re-reading it and noticed in the prologue a hint as to Vasher's Returned status, right after he received the Breaths from Vahr:

"Vasher could, of course, have up to the Fifth Heightening at any time, if he wished. That would require certain sacrifices he wasn't willing to make. And so he forced himself to do it the old-fashioned way, by gathering Breaths from people like Vahr." [e-book v.1, pg 22]

Of course I didn't realize it the first time through, but now the reference to having up to the Fifth Heightening at any time makes sense ... Vasher could, as he did at the end of the book, revert back to Returned status with its accompanying mega-one-breath-equal-to-2,000-normal-breaths. This raises a number a questions/presumptions. Do all Returned have the ability to revert back to normal human proportions? (i.e., could Lightsong or Blushweaver or any of the other Hallandren gods have done the same thing?) In this process, what happens to the uber-Breath? Vivenna and others with Breath did not sense it ... has it been transferred to an object? or does it just become muted?

And what's up with the 2 of the 5 Scholars that we meet in the book (Vasher and Denth) both having reverted back to human form? Of course, this question presumes that all of the 5 scholars were Returned (are we ever told that?). So, presumably Denth, like Vasher, was also Returned and decided, like Vasher, to forego the god-like Returned status in order to ... do what? walk among normal folk and influence affairs? Can we presume that their decision to do so was a result of the Manywar and its aftermath? It seems like we've been given a rationale for Vasher to make this transformation (i.e., he did not like what he had become or what lengths he had to go to in order to end the Manywar), but what rationale would Denth have had for giving up god-like status?

Just some thoughts rattling around ...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on June 25, 2009, 10:43:22 PM
Quote

And what's up with the 2 of the 5 Scholars that we meet in the book (Vasher and Denth) both having reverted back to human form?  Of course, this question presumes that all of the 5 scholars were Returned (are we ever told that?).  So, presumably Denth, like Vasher, was also Returned and decided, like Vasher, to forego the god-like Returned status in order to ... do what? walk among normal folk and influence affairs?  Can we presume that their decision to do so was a result of the Manywar and its aftermath?  It seems like we've been given a rationale for Vasher to make this transformation (i.e., he did not like what he had become or what lengths he had to go to in order to end the Manywar), but what rationale would Denth have had for giving up god-like status?


The god-like status also means being instantly recognizable as a Returned to anyone with an education, thereby losing all anonymity in any human endeavor, and potentially getting imprisoned in the court of the gods.  The priests, religions, and people may worship the Returned, but they have also placed extremely strict controls and balances on their power and influence.  Without the ability to look normal, Denth would have been unable to live a normal life with any control over his destiny.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Jurisprude on June 25, 2009, 10:58:28 PM
***** SPOILER ALERT *****


The god-like status also means being instantly recognizable as a Returned to anyone with an education, thereby losing all anonymity in any human endeavor, and potentially getting imprisoned in the court of the gods. The priests, religions, and people may worship the Returned, but they have also placed extremely strict controls and balances on their power and influence. Without the ability to look normal, Denth would have been unable to live a normal life with any control over his destiny.

Okay ... so ... presumably during the Manywar Denth was involved in the faction that had all the Lifeless, and Vasher/Kalad/Peacegiver comes up with the more powerful weapons that trump the Lifeless, right? So then, at that point Denth (and Shashara and Arsteel? had Vasher killed them by this point? presumably so, yes?) is forced to flee and, having his power base broken, he goes incognito as a mere mortal.

But at that point was the whole Hallendren god-religion in place? Wasn't Vasher the "first" God-King, or he created the first God-King ... ? hold on, skimming back over the epilogue ... nope, I don't see any mention of the religion being around during the Manywar ... maybe back in the Hoid's storytelling section with Siri?

Denth could have merely gone over to some other kingdom (other than Idris of course) and set himself up, retaining his Returned status? Although I guess going incognito makes sense after being on the losing side of the war.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: little wilson on June 25, 2009, 11:14:12 PM
Arsteel was killed by Vasher at some later point, because Jewels, who is not Returned (to my knowledge anyway...) knows him. So does Tonk Fah. I got the impression that Arsteel was killed fairly recently. You're right about Shashara, though. She was definitely killed during the Manywar.

I'm pretty sure that Vasher and Denth were one the same side...until Vasher killed Shashara. That's when they went their separate ways, and probably when Vasher realized he had to stop the war, and brought his Phantoms back to Hallandren. And since he had a lot of places to set back on the right track, he put a God-King in place, leaving the breaths to control the Phantoms with him. Then he went incognito and left.

And Denth probably went incognito so as not to give his position away in his search for Vasher....
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Jurisprude on June 26, 2009, 07:08:42 PM
***** SPOILER ALERT *****

Why are "the current crop of Hallandren gods . . . so much more erratic than their predecessors"? (as thought by Dedelin, ebook pg. 31)

I know that we get this idea more fleshed out later in Lightsong's interactions with Allmother, but is there ever an explicit explanation as to why the current crop of gods has become more selfish and "erratic" than their predecessors? Is this just a natural outgrowth of a mature socio/economic/theocratic society that is beginning a downward slide, or could there be other explanations that fit in line with the underground Pahn Kahl/Bluefingers plot to bring down Hallandren?

If the latter, I would theorize that as part of his overall plan to incite war between Hallandren and Idris, Bluefingers employed a strategy of coddling the Hallandren gods to the point that they did not care about the Hallandren people, thus introducing a potential element of unrest into Hallandren society. The parts of Bluefingers' plan that are explicitly mentioned in the book include swaying/bribing the various priest factions to increasingly argue for war with the Idrians, while at the same time fomenting the Idrian underclasses in Hallandren itself. Could it be that an implied part of his plan also included subtly pushing the Hallandren gods toward more indolence and self-absorption?

Maybe there are more clues in the various Lightsong musings, but I haven't gone back looking for clues yet.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: zas678 on June 26, 2009, 11:48:37 PM
I don't think so. I think it's less of scheming on Bluefinger's part and more just a weakness of the religion.  After all, if only the best people are willing to give their breath, you'll end up with people who aren't willing to give up their breath.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Renoard on June 28, 2009, 04:42:23 AM
Here's a question.  All the "god's" have a specific quest they returned to complete.  Seems the religion inhibits who they can affect, because their imprisoned.

But all that begs the question, who are Denth, and Vasher here to "heal".  They've been around a very long time.  Also, how does Vasher remain alive, without consuming breaths, as when he was in jail at the beginning.  A lot of loose ends there.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on June 28, 2009, 11:55:10 PM
Here's a question. All the "god's" have a specific quest they returned to complete. Seems the religion inhibits who they can affect, because their imprisoned.

But all that begs the question, who are Denth, and Vasher here to "heal". They've been around a very long time. Also, how does Vasher remain alive, without consuming breaths, as when he was in jail at the beginning. A lot of loose ends there.

We don't know if the religion's interpretation of the Returned is correct.  By making them rulers, they can influence things, though.  The Returned may be imprisoned, but I must admit that it is a very nice imprisonment with a decent amount of power.  Note, however, that their quest may not necessarily be to heal somebody.  That may just be an act of mercy they perform after finishing the quest.  So asking if Denth and Vasher have to heal somebody is not as relevant ask asking what they were supposed to do.  And for Vasher, I think the term Warbreaker may be sufficient.  I dunno about the others, though.  They seem to have failed...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: pirsquared on July 01, 2009, 06:54:49 AM
I recently finished Warbreaker, and I thought it was awesome!  The only problem I saw was that God King does seem a little too similar to Lord Ruler.  God=Lord, King=Ruler.  But other than that, the magic system was ingenious (as always) and the plot was amazing.

Quote
We don't know if the religion's interpretation of the Returned is correct.  By making them rulers, they can influence things, though.  The Returned may be imprisoned, but I must admit that it is a very nice imprisonment with a decent amount of power.  Note, however, that their quest may not necessarily be to heal somebody.  That may just be an act of mercy they perform after finishing the quest.  So asking if Denth and Vasher have to heal somebody is not as relevant ask asking what they were supposed to do.  And for Vasher, I think the term Warbreaker may be sufficient.  I dunno about the others, though.  They seem to have failed...

I got the impression at the end of the book when Lightsong healed the God King that he sort of knew it was time to do what he had come to do.  My theory about the Returned is that they are very much like awakened sentinent objects (like Nightblood): they are given one command and that command sort of defines them.  In the case of Nightblood, the command is "destroy evil" and it was given to him by Vasher and Shashara.  In the case of the Returned, I think that the person gives himself a command, causing his body to be awakened as an entity.  So the 'quests' of the gods/returned are actually just a command they gave themselves.  I agree that it definitely doesn't have to be healing someone.
In the case of Denth and some others, it would be possible according to my theory to have an evil quest, if the person gave themselves an evil command.  However, since Denth used to be good, I think this is unlikely.  Instead, I suggest he has an obscure command, like Nightblood's "destroy evil".  Certainly Vasher could be considered 'evil' in Denth's mind.

On the subject of Vasher's and Denth's abilities to do things that most Returned can't, I would point out that they have been living for a far longer amount of time than the others.  Also, the priests do hold quite a bit of information back from the gods living in Hallandren.

I totally agree that Clod is Arsteel.

Now, I would like to propose that there are actually 8 BioChromatic entities: four spontaneous, and four non-spontaneous - spontaneous meaning awakened and commanded by oneself and non-spontaneous meaning awakened and commanded by others.  So the 4 non-spontaneous would be Nightblood-type things, awakened objects, lifeless, and a sort of sentinent creature created from a dead human body the same way Nightblood was created (this last one would be very dangerous - imagine Nightblood as a person).  The four spontaneous entities would be Returned, returned lifeless, returned objects, and returned sentinent objects (if Nightblood was destroyed, he could choose to return as the last of the four).  A returned lifeless or returned object seems improbable, since they would have to be awakened by themselves, but if you commanded an object or lifeless specifically to return if it was killed, maybe that would work.

One question: why didn't Vasher just use his own army to destroy the Lifeless army?  He could have stopped them on his own, without the God King's help.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Hero of Ages on July 01, 2009, 09:11:33 AM
I'm not sure that a lifeless could be made sentient, but maybe.

According to your theory about the returned, it is not possible for lifeless and awakened objects to return.  Since they don't have a will of their own they cannot command themselves to return.  And even if commanded to by the awakener, I still think that it would be to complex a command and too costly in the amount of breaths to be feasible.

To answer your question about why Vasher didn't use Kalad's Phantoms, he couldn't he gave up his "extra" breaths to the 1st God King, and they were passed down to Susebron.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: pirsquared on July 07, 2009, 02:12:41 AM
Quote
I'm not sure that a lifeless could be made sentient, but maybe.

Well, it wouldn't really be a lifeless anymore.  It seems to me that if you can awaken an object to sentinence (nightblood), you should be able to awaken a dead body to sentinence in a similar way.

Quote
According to your theory about the returned, it is not possible for lifeless and awakened objects to return.  Since they don't have a will of their own they cannot command themselves to return.  And even if commanded to by the awakener, I still think that it would be to complex a command and too costly in the amount of breaths to be feasible.

You're probably right about that.  But it's still theoretically possible, even if it would require millions of breaths.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Rrikor on July 07, 2009, 05:17:18 PM
To answer your question about why Vasher didn't use Kalad's Phantoms, he couldn't he gave up his "extra" breaths to the 1st God King, and they were passed down to Susebron.

If they are already lifeless, they do not need breath to  be commanded, only the command words to use them.  The same way that lifeless army works.  The only reason they were not used before this is that no one realized what they were.  If they thought they were normal statues they would not try to break the command word or words.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Czanos on July 07, 2009, 08:26:18 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure the statues were not lifeless, but awakened objects. It is simply a regular statue with bones arrayed inside, and an Awakener has to Awaken the bones with a command, giving them enough breath to be strong enough to manipulate the body as their own, much the same way that Awakened objects are stronger than their original parts and pieces. (Or maybe it's more similar to Vasher's straw men in the Prologue, Awakening something (the stone) with fewer breaths because of the human focus (the bones.))
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on July 08, 2009, 04:03:29 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure the statues were not lifeless, but awakened objects. It is simply a regular statue with bones arrayed inside, and an Awakener has to Awaken the bones with a command, giving them enough breath to be strong enough to manipulate the body as their own, much the same way that Awakened objects are stronger than their original parts and pieces. (Or maybe it's more similar to Vasher's straw men in the Prologue, Awakening something (the stone) with fewer breaths because of the human focus (the bones.))

This would be more plausible if Vasher hadn't turned control of the Phantoms to Susebron by telling him a command phrase.

No, the Phantoms are Lifeless.  I believe Brandon mentioned at some point that this was actually a change he made late in the revision process.  Before the change, they had been Awakened objects.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 08, 2009, 04:38:37 PM
Page 582: "They are Lifeless."
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: zas678 on July 08, 2009, 10:55:47 PM
Whoo-hoo! Brandon said that Clod was Arsteel during twitter chat!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 09, 2009, 12:34:56 AM
There are some mysteries that are supposed to be easy to figure out. Not everything has to be Asmodean. :) (Though supposedly that one was also meant to be easy to figure out.)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on July 09, 2009, 09:13:43 PM
Clod being Arsteel was indeed easy.  What this meant for the Lifeless made out of his body is somewhat trickier.  It brings up questions about whether Clod did indeed have emotions/feelings/whatever Vivenna thought she saw in him.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Renoard on July 11, 2009, 06:09:08 PM
Ummm
The walrus was Paul. . .
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Eri on July 16, 2009, 01:45:01 PM
I hope I don't have to read all 57 pages before posting?
pirsquared, I like your theory about Returning=Awakening and Commanding oneself. Or being A&C-ed by some higher force, maybe?

Some things I want to mention:
Really good book. Not as great as Mistborn, but still very good.

I wonder why the high priest was so rude to Siri. I just don't understand that guy. I don't understand most of their religion. They could let the God King grow with his adopted family and be happy for some more time. Explain things to him. Not "how to Awaken things and become powerful", but simple things, like family matters and such.

I agree that the idea of Siri going to be raped by a tyrant is very disturbing. Yup, she does not but we don't know that in advance.
It's more disturbing because it's unnecessary, even from in-world point of view. If the priests could claim that Siri is pregnant than why couldn't they just put her into Susebron's room and claim that they have had sex? Or maybe that is what they wanted, but Bluefingers told her to undress and kneel just to scare her more?
Well, the priests could go even further and claim that she'll automagically get pregnant by king somehow using his BioChroma on her and then give birth in much shorter time than normal. She wouldn't have to touch him and they will be able to present the child they found as new king sooner. Anyway why did they want to have a new king as soon as possible? I guess that again half of what I think about it is wrong, and than there will be more about it in next book(s?).

I wonder if the fact that the marriage have been consumed is as unimportant as it seems. Maybe (because of Siri being from royal family or some other odd circumstances) they will have a child anyway.

Mercenaries being evil was a bit easy to guess - after Mistborn I am quite paranoid on important characters not having their PoV chapters. But the scene in cellar (dead Parlin and animals) was great and shocking. Probably the best scene in whole book, in my opinion.

BioChroma... is it just me, or does it looks a bit futuristic? More like some cybertechnology than magic. Maybe it's not magic, in fact.
Maybe it would look better as Biochroma, without second capital.

I wonder why did they bring only(?) children to give their Breaths to Lightsong. Is it because he died saving a child? Or do children deal more easily with losing it? Are their Breaths stronger? Or is it just because most of poor people were already Drabs, because their parents have sold their Breaths and so it went... ?

(petitions, s 125/126)
Quote
Please, Great One, the woman said. She sniffled, then bowed her head.
Oh, please. He was brave, like you. My Breath, it would be yours. The
Breaths of my entire family. Service for a hundred years, anything. Please, just
heal him.
Why is she offering Lightsong these things? Doesn't she know that he would have to die to help her child? Or does she promise Breath and service to the Court of Gods in general or to his successor (the next deity of bravery, or something like that)?

Quote
Its Tax, all right. Goes by a different name now.
Denth nodded. Vasher. Hes used it for a while. Its a joke on his part.
I hope the joke will be explained someday, because I don't get it.

Site 314/315:
Quote
Vasher stood openly atop the building. He didnt really care who saw him.
He rarely did. An endless flow of people passed on the colorful street.
VaraTreledeesDenth, as he called himself nowwalked among them with
his team. The woman, Jewels. Tonk Fah, as always. The clueless princess. And
the abomination.
?!
Why does Vasher consider Lifeless an abomination? Or is it some different kind of Lifeless? Or a mistake?..

Clod being Arsteel... there may be more to it than just "they animated their old friend's corpse to make a bodyguard construct". I think he still has have some important role to play.

I wonder who Egdli was/is.

BTW - is there a way to buy Mistborn or other books as PDFs? It would make searching for metaplot elements (like Hoid) easier...
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: zas678 on July 16, 2009, 04:30:35 PM
Brandon Sanderson said on the Barnes and Nobles forum that there does need to be an actual child of Suseborn in order for Suseborn to pass his Breath on. He said he would explain more in the annotations.

Also, Vasher considered Clod as an abomination because he was an abomination. How would you feel if someone you knew had his corpse reawakened? True Vasher did kill Arsteel, but he still thinks it's creepy to have him walking around still.

I don 't  think a lot of the peasants understand the religion (like in Mistborn). After all, you have to eat before you can think about whether there is an afterlife.

I think Edgli is just kinda like The Pits of Hathsin (name wise). I think it's just a name, not an actual person. But who knows?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Eri on July 16, 2009, 05:34:32 PM
Thank you for your explanation. So the kings have had children... interesting.

I thought Hatshin was a name of place. "The Pits of Hatshin" like "the city of Paris". Maybe i got suggested by the Polish translation. And Edgli seems like a person or people.

Clod wasn't IMO much more an abomination than Phantoms. Animating corpses of people you knew isn't much more vile than of people you didn't know. Or... wait. If Arsteel have been a Returned and after he'd died his body was used to make a Lifeless, Vasher could consider it an abomination, for some reason.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Renoard on July 18, 2009, 08:27:51 PM
I think most people would react more strongly to a familiar face on a golum, zombie etc. than a stranger. The reflex to have familiar emotions would make the horror of it more poignant.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: JakobLayn on July 19, 2009, 12:19:01 AM
Vasher, Denth, Arsteel, Yersteel and Shashara are the original Returned and so yes Having Arsteel a Returned and friend becoming a lifeless would probably make Vasher think of Clod as an Abomination, who knows maybe thats why Vivenna noticed emotion in Clod. Idk thats for darn sure im just guessing on that part
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: JakobLayn on July 19, 2009, 12:21:23 AM
hah i just read a post already bringing up the thing about emotion in Clod...i feel stupid :-[
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chaos on July 20, 2009, 12:28:33 AM
Vasher, Denth, Arsteel, Yersteel and Shashara are the original Returned and so yes Having Arsteel a Returned and friend becoming a lifeless would probably make Vasher think of Clod as an Abomination, who knows maybe thats why Vivenna noticed emotion in Clod. Idk thats for darn sure im just guessing on that part

Not the "original" Returned. Vo, the First Returned, lived centuries before the Five Scholars. They are, however, all Returned, so you are right on that account.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Aranfan on July 20, 2009, 12:31:42 AM
I wonder if you could use Hemalurgy to steal Breath?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chaos on July 20, 2009, 12:46:35 AM
You can't. In order to use Hemalurgy, you need to have the right spiritual and genetic codes. People on the Warbreaker don't have those same codes as the ones on Scadrial.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Aranfan on July 20, 2009, 01:22:00 AM
You can't. In order to use Hemalurgy, you need to have the right spiritual and genetic codes. People on the Warbreaker don't have those same codes as the ones on Scadrial.

And here I thought that you needed those codes for Allomancy and/or Feruchemy, and that for Hemalurgy you just needed Ruin to be around. I'd need to check my copy of HoA, but I'm pretty sure that for Hemalurgy you just need a spike of the right Metal (probably Atium for Breaths), a person with the powers you want that you wouldn't mind dead, and Ruin's presence.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chaos on July 20, 2009, 01:29:23 AM
Well, in order for a spike to become Hemalurgically-charged, the target would need to have Ruin and Preservation's spiritual codes, because when you are stealing a quality with Hemalurgy, you are either taking part of Preservation, or you are taking Allomantic or Feruchemical powers. Both require those genetic and spiritual codes. What Ruin likes to do is to have that metal, now that it's imbued, to actually go in the right spot so it grants a power.

As Brandon said on B&N to my question on the subject,

Quote
What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul.  It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm.  Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy.  It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around.  Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.
 
Hemalurgy is a very brutal way of making changes like this, though, so it often has monstrous effects.  (Like with the koloss.)  And in most cases, it leaves a kind of 'hole' in the spirit's natural defenses, which is how Ruin was able to touch the souls of Hemalurgists directly.

Now, atium can be a wild card for Hemalurgy, as Brandon stated later (spoiler alert, anyone? :P) in that post. So, you might make the case that you could stick a Breath to a spike. However, that doesn't mean you can figure out where you need to place that spike in order for the recipient to gain that Breath. So it's probably unlikely that it would ever happen, because magic derived from different Shards appear incompatible.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Aranfan on July 20, 2009, 04:12:53 AM
Incompatible? Spook got Preservation's powers from Ruin, how in the world do you get incompatible from that?  And why would you need any specific spiritual codes when you are getting your powers stolen?

And I could see the victim needing the spiritual codes for the magic in question that's being stolen, but the explanation you quoted at me seems to imply that you can take any power from someone who has it, and give it to anyone. Yes, he specifically mentions Feruchemy and presumably meant to say Allomancy when he said Hemalurgy, but every other part of the explanation (Fooling the Spiritual DNA) sounds like it could apply to the other magic systems just as well.

Also, why should Hemalurgy only work on Allomancy and Feruchemy? Ruin is the primal force of destruction and decay, it makes sense for him to be able to use the magics of the other Shards against them.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Czanos on July 22, 2009, 04:10:34 PM
Ruin never gave Spook Preservation's powers, Hemalurgy just allowed Spook to steal them from someone who already had them, in a mildly corrupted fashion. The source of Hemalurgy-endowed power is the other person's soul, not Ruin or the spikes or anything else.

And while it's true fooling the spiritual codes would work for any magic, the ability to store those codes in a spike is probably Scadrial-specific. If you could store the codes for Breath in a spike, and place it in a magic-altering spot, you could probably steal Breath. (Maybe. I'm still wondering myself if Breath is perhaps the Spiritual Manifestation of Endowment, in which case strange things would happen.)

There is sort of a workaround for this though. I'm pretty sure I recall Brandon saying that to use Allomancy and Feruchemy, you needed the correct spiritual and genetic codes, but to use Hemalurgy you simply had to steal those codes from someone else. That implies that a properly endowed Hemalurgic spike would give power to anyone, including those not from Scadrial.

So to steal Breath, (or something.) You would have to Hemalurgically endow the subject with Scadrial codes, then use a Hemalurgic spike to steal the part of their soul containing their magic, then hope you can implant it right in someone else. Even that might not work, and it might require either an Atium or Lerasium spike to do so.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Aranfan on July 23, 2009, 03:23:52 AM
You would have to Hemalurgically endow the subject with Scadrial codes

I don't see how this follows from the rest of your post.
Title: Re: Warbreaker Sample Chapters
Post by: Batchman on August 06, 2009, 07:09:23 PM
Chapter Seven needed a revision as badly as elf needs food, so I did one. It clarifies a lot of the language and events.

Gauntlet reference noted and enjoyed! I think I am going to like it here!
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: TyranAmiros on August 10, 2009, 07:18:39 AM
Just finished my second read of the book and I'm kind of confused. What (or how), exactly, did Lightsong heal with his final Breath? I mean, we know Susebron regained his tongue, but for me it raises a number of questions about the metaphysics of the magic system.

First--what was there to heal precisely? That is, can Returned--who can alter their appearances--do things like grow or atrophy their own limbs? We know that male Returned in Hallandren can gain height and strength, so it's possible that Returned can alter themselves thusly.

And there's a bigger question--how alive are the Returned? While clearly sentient, it is not clear to what extent they are actually alive--they certainly don't need food or water any more.

So I guess the more general phrasing of my question is this: does Returned-Returned healing work the same as Returned-normal healing? What are the physical limitations for Returned transformation?

In this case there are three possibilities, and I'm not sure which is right:
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: JakobLayn on August 12, 2009, 01:30:27 AM
Those are interesting theories but in the book it said that Suseborn not only healed his tongue but gave him the knowledge on how to use  breaths and commands and everything else sooo.... yeah i dont remember anything else :)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Raphael on August 13, 2009, 02:17:30 AM
And also, will we ever get to see Annotations on Warbreaker? Because at this rate, we'll be finishing HoA when GS comes out....... I'm not complaining, just wondering....
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chaos on August 13, 2009, 02:45:16 AM
And also, will we ever get to see Annotations on Warbreaker? Because at this rate, we'll be finishing HoA when GS comes out....... I'm not complaining, just wondering....

Ookla said that Tor might release a special edition electronic version which includes all the annotations with it. Otherwise, we just wait until HoA annotations are done.

(I have no idea when this edition would be released)
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Raphael on August 13, 2009, 03:12:48 AM
:/ Oh well.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 13, 2009, 04:17:53 AM
Warbreaker annotations might start at one per week while the Hero of Ages annotations are still going, but it wouldn't be for months and months yet. It would be nice for the Way of Kings annotations to start coming out not too long after that book is released.

Also, the special edition ebook with all the annotations is still coming, but there were problems with its first layout so it's getting fixed up.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Chaos on August 13, 2009, 05:23:15 AM
Well, better to have it be good. I eagerly await.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: pirsquared on August 13, 2009, 05:39:05 AM
This isn't exactly the place, but I didn't want to go on the WoT page for fear of seeing spoilers...

Do I have to read New Spring in order to understand the rest of Wheel of Time, or could I just read the rest of the series without touching it?  If I need to read it, when should I read it (after which book)?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: stridera on August 13, 2009, 08:47:24 AM
You don't have to read it at all... but if you're starting out, you might as well read it first.  It talks about events that happen about 20 years before the Eye of the World.  It will foreshadow on a lot of events and give you some background on a couple main characters and places but it doesn't make or break the story.  It's a fun read, and it's short (compared ot the rest) so it goes quick.  The other option is to read it after book 6 (when the series starts to slow down) for a quick pick-me-up before continuing.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 13, 2009, 06:14:34 PM
Many people think it's better to read New Spring in the order it was writtenafter Crossroads of Twilight and before Knife of Dreams. Otherwise some of the character development in the series will seem a bit overshadowed.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Raphael on August 14, 2009, 08:49:45 PM
Many people think it's better to read New Spring in the order it was writtenafter Crossroads of Twilight and before Knife of Dreams. Otherwise some of the character development in the series will seem a bit overshadowed.

I agree with this. You'll appreciate the history of New Spring more if you read it between CoT and KoD. At least, I did.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Wielder on August 23, 2009, 03:52:14 AM
Those are interesting theories but in the book it said that Suseborn not only healed his tongue but gave him the knowledge on how to use breaths and commands and everything else sooo.... yeah i dont remember anything else :)

Yes, Lightsong's (I assume you meant to put Lightsong in your post) breaths added onto Susebron's breaths allowed old Susebron to attain the tenth heightening.  I think Susebron wouldn't be able to recall a form with a tongue, by the way.  If I remember correctly, Vasher mentioned something about a command being used when he goes between his returned and his non-returned form, and Susebron couldn't issue commands due to the fact that his tongue had been severed.  Lightsong healed the tongue and gave Susebron the knowledge of the tenth heightening, allowing him to do what he did at the end of the book. 

Mind you, I haven't had time to read the published version (the book is still sitting on my table since I bought it opening day), but I'm fairly sure that's the way it worked.

P.S. - I guess the last version I read was 4.2.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 23, 2009, 04:36:26 PM
How Vasher got back to his Returned form DID change in the published version. He didn't use a command. Also, Lightsong only had the one Divine breath. When you give it to someone, it heals them, it doesn't give them the Fifth Heightening.

[EDIT: I asked Brandon about Susebron's tongue, and he said that it would not have been possible for him to regrow it anytime he wanted to. Brandon will be exploring the limits of the self-image modification of Returned in the sequel.]
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Batchman on August 26, 2009, 06:06:11 AM
I think this one is still my favorite book in what I have read so far. The story is cool, the characters are (for the most part) likeable, and the magic system is interesting.

And I have now ordered the HC release to go with reading it on line.

I will have to start rereading it when the annotations start pouring forth ... but I'll hate waiting for them!  :P
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: menandore on August 26, 2009, 05:45:53 PM
My apologies if this has already been discussed before (am I a terrible person for not reading all 29 pages...?)

I've got a couple mechanics questions:

-Infant Returned? Really?  I disbelieve.  Unless the criteria for Returning aren't as straightforward as "died doing something heroic".

-Is there some reason Vivenna couldn't have put one breath in some object, the rest of her  breaths in a shawl, and taken the one breath back to avoid becoming a Drab?  Although I suppose she might not have known how bad losing all your Breath is for you.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on August 26, 2009, 08:04:44 PM
I think the characters in the book don't clearly understand why Returned happen. I assume the second book will go more into that.

And you're exactly right. The only reason Vivenna couldn't have done that is that she didn't think of doing it. That's the way Vasher gives one breath to that little girl later.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on August 27, 2009, 08:58:30 PM
My apologies if this has already been discussed before (am I a terrible person for not reading all 29 pages...?)

I've got a couple mechanics questions:

-Infant Returned? Really? I disbelieve. Unless the criteria for Returning aren't as straightforward as "died doing something heroic".

-Is there some reason Vivenna couldn't have put one breath in some object, the rest of her breaths in a shawl, and taken the one breath back to avoid becoming a Drab? Although I suppose she might not have known how bad losing all your Breath is for you.

I think that Vivenna didn't know how to get Breath back at all at this point, even if she had thought of it.  Denth deliberately kept her in the dark on how to use her breath most effectively, probably so she couldn't get too independent-minded.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: JakobLayn on September 30, 2009, 07:02:39 PM
Thanks Wielder yes i meant LightSong hehe my bad
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: stridera on September 30, 2009, 07:15:57 PM
And you're exactly right. The only reason Vivenna couldn't have done that is that she didn't think of doing it. That's the way Vasher gives one breath to that little girl later.

I wasn't sure if he gave her a breath or not, but I do know that he caused her to forget what happened.  (Later on in the book he tells Denith that he knows how to make him forget, so I'm guessing it's the same thing.)  I don't know what was involved but I know it involved having the little girl speak a command.  ("Repeat after me, and mean it.")
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: RedMaij on November 05, 2009, 05:56:40 AM
Hey, just wanted to chime in and say I loved the audiobook, and after checking the main page to see if there is going to be a continuation, I noticed that you have the book online for free.  I read your explanation, and I appreciate what you are doing so much that, even though I've bought the audiobook already, I just ordered the hardcover as well.  Great work!

By the way, loving The Gathering Storm so far.  You were definitely the right choice.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: sinisterroo on November 27, 2009, 02:00:39 AM
After finally having time to read this book, I went and read through it in one sitting.

One thing that's bothering me however and I hope to get answered is something someone asked earlier in the thread and didn't get answered.

"Of course I didn't realize it the first time through, but now the reference to having up to the Fifth Heightening at any time makes sense ... Vasher could, as he did at the end of the book, revert back to Returned status with its accompanying mega-one-breath-equal-to-2,000-normal-breaths.  This raises a number a questions/presumptions.  Do all Returned have the ability to revert back to normal human proportions? (i.e., could Lightsong or Blushweaver or any of the other Hallandren gods have done the same thing?)  In this process, what happens to the uber-Breath?  Vivenna and others with Breath did not sense it ... has it been transferred to an object? or does it just become muted?"
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on November 27, 2009, 04:07:31 PM
After finally having time to read this book, I went and read through it in one sitting.

One thing that's bothering me however and I hope to get answered is something someone asked earlier in the thread and didn't get answered.

"Of course I didn't realize it the first time through, but now the reference to having up to the Fifth Heightening at any time makes sense ... Vasher could, as he did at the end of the book, revert back to Returned status with its accompanying mega-one-breath-equal-to-2,000-normal-breaths. This raises a number a questions/presumptions. Do all Returned have the ability to revert back to normal human proportions? (i.e., could Lightsong or Blushweaver or any of the other Hallandren gods have done the same thing?) In this process, what happens to the uber-Breath? Vivenna and others with Breath did not sense it ... has it been transferred to an object? or does it just become muted?"

This has been answered, but I can't remember where from; I think it was answered at an interview.  It's somewhere on this site.  Anyway, the short version is (1) any Returned could do it if they learned how (it's a mental trick in which they convince themselves they are not divine) and (2) the uberbreath automatically gets hidden by the mental trick, although it is still there, keeping them immortal and still requiring a breath a week to survive.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on November 29, 2009, 02:56:43 PM
So essentially...Lightsong has been trying to do the same thing Vasher is doing for his entire Returned existence?
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: happyman on November 29, 2009, 04:16:17 PM
So essentially...Lightsong has been trying to do the same thing Vasher is doing for his entire Returned existence?

Well, if you read closely, Lightsong wasn't all that committed to not being a god.  The perks were quite nice, and he got to exercise his razor wit.
Title: Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
Post by: Mellington the loony Gold Misting on December 01, 2009, 10:03:42 AM
So essentially...Lightsong has been trying to do the same thing Vasher is doing for his entire Returned existence?

Well, if you read closely, Lightsong