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Games => Table-Top Games => Topic started by: Fellfrosch on April 06, 2003, 02:07:00 AM

Title: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on April 06, 2003, 02:07:00 AM: www.eyeofterror.com

Well crap. Now I'll have to finish painting my army that I haven't touched in a year. How dare they go and do something cool like this?
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Lord_of_Me on April 06, 2003, 12:45:10 PM: cool, i wonder what they have planned for Inquisitor?
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on April 06, 2003, 04:25:20 PM: Yeah, that was the first thing I noticed. They've really expanded the Inquisitor line, and they could do a lot with it in a worldwide campaign.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Lord_of_Me on April 06, 2003, 04:30:40 PM: it'll just be cadians and daemonhunters
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 06, 2003, 07:53:56 PM: I have it from a good source that the next model for =I= is the nurgling ;) :D
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Lord_of_Me on April 07, 2003, 11:34:32 AM: cool, sounds gooey
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on April 17, 2003, 01:47:35 AM: How cool is this?

http://us.games-workshop.com/rdr/Defiler.htm
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Lord_of_Me on April 17, 2003, 08:39:40 AM: ever seen the film "wild wild west"?
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: House of Mustard on April 17, 2003, 11:50:28 AM: That would be so extremely worth the money for the conversion possibilities alone, let alone the Defiler itself. I often wish I had money...
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 21, 2003, 02:24:01 AM: the defiler rules. its essentially a dreadnought with a reaper cannon, a heavy flamer and a battlecannon. its got monsterous nature and it ignores crew shaken/stunned results. and it only costs 150 points.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Mad Dr Jeffe on April 21, 2003, 02:59:01 PM: Great googly moogly!!!!

look at the size of that thing!!!
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Arathorn on April 24, 2003, 01:59:08 AM: Updated every friday, eh :P
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on April 28, 2003, 10:54:05 PM: Holy Moly that thing is gigantic!

If only I hadn't vowed to never, ever support GW again, I might have just picked this puppy up and gave it some sweet love.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 29, 2003, 07:47:23 AM: Personally, im kinda excited about the possibilities for the lost and the damned list. Chaos Guard would be incredible - the atmosphere of WW2 russia style army with the whole chaos ambiance and demons thrown in. Gotta be good. And can you imagine how cool Chaos Guard Vs Imperial Guard games would be? Perfect for cityfight.

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If only I hadn't vowed to never, ever support GW again

Whyfore?
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on April 29, 2003, 03:35:21 PM: Why?

Well, GW is almost single handedly responsible for the embarassing cost of miniatures these days. People will pay a lot for a GW model and so other mini makers charge like prices. Combine this with the fact that GW keeps jacking up their prices and you see the problem. Not that there aren't cheap minis out there, but overall the price of miniatures is just silly.

Also, I hate WYSIWYG and the slow power and numbers creep of their games along with the attitude of the (admitedly few) GW store emplyees that I met.

All in all, I think they're bad for the hobby because of their ridiculous prices...and now they're shutting down internet retailers who sell their product at reasonable cost so we have to use their crappy order store if we want anything.

So I'm waging a quiet war against them with my pocketbook. They won't be recieving any of my business again. Ever.

As long as people continue paying such prices for minis, the problem will never be solved.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Lord_of_Me on April 29, 2003, 03:58:13 PM: Quote
along with the attitude of the (admitedly few) GW store emplyees that I met.

i thought i was the only one who'd noticed, GW employees seem to think you're beneath them

prices are insane - paints just go up and up

and don't get me started on fanatic >:(
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 29, 2003, 04:10:34 PM: Quote
As long as people continue paying such prices for minis, the problem will never be solved.

Welcome to a capalist democracy. People want GW minis, and so they buy them. You imply that you would prefer to ignore their choice. If so, China needs you!

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Also, I hate WYSIWYG and the slow power and numbers creep of their games along with the attitude of the (admitedly few) GW store emplyees that I met.

Uh. Lets see.
1) GW staff are very friendly and helpful. Some of the best store employees since they actually give a damn about what they are selling.

2) Slow powers and numbers creep? Er no. That would be Rifts. GW actually do this little thing called balancing. So i don't agree with that argument. After all, X-Plosion was full of minis far more powerful than those in earlier boosters.

And i cannot see what you are getting at with WYSIWYG. GW even allows you to take totally scratchbuilt minis to tournaments - you not notice the guy with a hover - tank equiped army? Compare this to wizkids who have a very rigid system of not changing anything much if you want to go to a tournie. GW allows you to use "this counts as..." and "this is actually..." when dealing with conversions.

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Well, GW is almost single handedly responsible for the embarassing cost of miniatures these days.

...whereas D&D costs £20 per book, a hardback novel is £16 and a computer game is £45, a squad of minis is £15. Seems to be about par for the course to me. You can easily spend more money of a selection of RPG books from the D20 or WoD lines than on a 1000pt army.

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Combine this with the fact that GW keeps jacking up their prices and you see the problem.

Somebody needs to go and find out what "inflation" is. And before you get all excited about the current shagged situation of the US economy, remember that the British one is going swimmingly. And the prices are really bad due to the fact that the pound is strong against the dollar. Good for people in britain buying imports, bad for people in america buying british exports.

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All in all, I think they're bad for the hobby because of their ridiculous prices

Ever wonder why GW can afford to make such high quality minitures and books? The Codexes are higher quality than D&D books at times. The quality comes at a price you know. If you want to buy crappy VOID minitures at lower cost, thats your choice. And interestingly enough, GW has annually increasing sales and profits. Wonder why.

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People will pay a lot for a GW model and so other mini makers charge like prices.

Most of them do not do nearly as well. I do not see many Ral Partha or VOID minitures on the shelves. Wizkids are in a different type of market, the collectable one, and so do not really count. GW minitures are things you spend hours of pain and love over, painting, modelling, converting. Wizkids ones are not. Ever wonder why GW gives so much shelf space to paints and modelling tools?

And on the whole internet retailing thing... Hm. I dunno. It is not like other companies would not do the same if they thought it would improve their profits. I'm not that bothered by it, since most if not all of said retailers are in the US. Maybe it is a tactic to increase their US profit margins.

Whew. Sorry about the harsh tone, but there it is.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on April 29, 2003, 05:36:47 PM: You're free to disagree on the subject of power creep, Entropy, but I think most people would side with Pleasington. The power creep is not as bad as Rifts, obviously, but it does exist.

(Incidentally, Wizkids uses a strict formula to calcuate price based on numbers and powers--it's theoretically impossible for them to have power creep since the point values are determined by computer based on set criteria. I know there's arguments with that logic, but the fact remains that Wizkids games are inherently more balanced than any other miniatures game. We're not talking about Wizkids, though, so lets forget this paragraph ever existed.)

Now that I've argued with Entropy on one point I intend to support him on another--the price of GW miniatures is not overly high. You can get a full 40k army for around 200 dollars, which is about average for a serious commitment to any gaming hobby (and cheaper than most non-gaming hobbies). I've recently become a huge fanboy of Heroclix, but that's not because GW is too expensive--I just don't have the time to convert or paint models anymore. I still like 40k and I still intend to play it again someday (like when my kids move away).

On another note, we don't have any official GW stores here in backwater Utah but we do have three game stores in the city. One of them has very nice people, and the other two are stereotypically rude. I suspect that game store rudeness is an extension of comic store rudeness, which is a tradition so old it's become an institution. Comic stores are the only places I know where the sales people will actually berate you for buying their products.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on April 29, 2003, 06:17:26 PM: I won't hit all the points, just the high ones...

GW Store: I'm not saying that all GW store employees are complete jackasses, but the dozen or so I've met are. They are condecending, arrogant, and usually completely unhelpful UNTIL you look like you're going to drop more than $50 at their store.

Prices: Miniature games are expensive. It's a fact. Still, each edition of either 40K or WFB requires you to field more and more troops. With the price of figs ever rising it means it just costs more and more money to play. And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the increase in the cost of miniatures FAR outweighs the inflation curve. If you love the game and are willing to spend the bucketloads of money needed then more power to you, but GW miniatures are far, far overpriced.

As for price comparison: Codex: Eldar: 42 B&W pages with color plates: $12. D&D 3E Player's Handbook: 286 full color pages: $20. Yeah, GW's books are a real bargain. Especially since a codex only has about 10 pages of rules and the rest is poorly written fiction (Mon-Keigh? Give me a break) and fluff that, while useful, should be a free download.

WYSIWYG: I love conversions, but I don't like how you can't proxy at all. By far and away this is a personal issue though and I don't expect much agreement.

Balance: Entropy, you might be the first person I've ever heard to call a GW game balanced. They make every codex a little more powerful than the last to attract people to buy that army. When enough of this has happened they go back and revise the old codicies to make the power level comparable. This imbalance isn't enough to make games unwinnable with old armies, but anyone who's played either WFB or 40K for over a year or two can vouch for this.

'Round here retailers stock mainly GW, but both Ral Partha and I-Kore minis are around. I-Kore games are actually gaining quite a bit of popularity actually. I play VOID because I find the rules much more fun and more interactive than 40K's and the minis are cheaper. I built a fully functional VOID army for less than $100 over a year ago. And the minis are great. Most would give Citadel a run for its money (some are kinda crappy though). Citadel minis aren't nearly as head and shoulders above the rest of the field as they used to be.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of capitalism. I don't like GW. I'm not going to give GW any money. I'm going to give companies I like such as I-Kore, Pinnacle, WizKids, and Fanpro my money.

I have no doubt that GW will be around for a long time, but it has taken a big hit over here in the last few years. Wizkids has managed to steal away a lot of 40K's target audience and has posed the first serious threat to GW's niche in a long time. Just because Wizkids games don't require the time and effort of GW games does not mean they are in virtually direct competition with each other. Wizkids brought a breath of fresh air that the hobby needed.
GW's recent decision to shut down all internet sales of their product has caused a lot of uproar and quite a few people to drop the game. All the fuss around here these days is for IK: Warmachine, which I played a demo of and was great fun. Now those minis ruled!

For a laugh, check this out: (Beware, R rated for language!) ---- http://www.misfirecomics.com/strips/030416.gif
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Spriggan on April 29, 2003, 06:32:52 PM: as a person that use to collect and paint minachure a long time ago 10+ years ago I can say that things have about dubbled in price. Part of it is becasue about 7-8 years ago figures were lead, and a law was passed here in the states makeing that illegal. Now they're pewder (ie par silver part lead) and that caused a signifnat raise in cost.
Another factor is popularity, granted GW are popular but the gaming industry has been realy hurting the past 4-5 years. Pallasium (because of their low production costs/levels) have been one of the few that have not been looseing money or barely breaking even. I read an Editoral by Simbida last year about this it's not on palladiums site anymore. So companies have to charge more for their products (look at WoTC books, they took a risk at selling the core rule books at below cost).

weither or not these things (along with inflation and other minor things) justafy the prices I can't say. I don't know their production costs. I will say that GW's plastic figures are insainly priced.

also if you don't like paying the price for paints then look at other types of stores. Craft stores have a wide selection also looking at model stores (like train models and such) would have different brands. Just remeber not to buy enamual.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on April 29, 2003, 07:27:07 PM: Excellent point Spriggan...I've used craft paints since I started painting minis over seven years ago. They're usually under a dollar and can last a long, long time. I'll only buy Citadel/Ral Partha/etc. paints if they have some nifty color I can't get at a craft store or mix up easily.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Spriggan on April 29, 2003, 07:30:22 PM: yea I'm useful

(http://www.lewrockwell.com/wallace/zoidberg.jpg)
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: House of Mustard on April 29, 2003, 10:40:08 PM: I have to agree wholeheartedly with Pleasington on the WYSIWYG issue. While I think that $200 for an army is reasonable, I don't want to spend that money without ever playtesting an army list. For that matter, I don't ever even want to buy a new tank for my IG without trying it out first. (Fell and I played many a game where tanks, monsters and dreadnoughts were represented by rubber dragons, old Battle Beast vehicles and plastic dinosaurs.)

As far as cheap minis, I think you all know my leanings toward historical gaming. The other day at the grocery store I found bags of little green army men selling for fifty cents a pop. I got one hundred and eighty little guys (about 30mm) for three bucks. Now I can finally try out those WWII 40k conversion rules.

I find it kind of funny - the first army that I ever had was little green army men, which Fell and I poorly painted in two tones (when we were about 11). I've gone back to my roots.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 30, 2003, 05:20:11 AM: Quote
GW Store: I'm not saying that all GW store employees are complete jackasses, but the dozen or so I've met are. They are condecending, arrogant, and usually completely unhelpful UNTIL you look like you're going to drop more than $50 at their store.

Amazing. The 50 or so i have met over the years were the exact opposite. Maybe american hobby store shops attract retards though. It is strange tho, since US stores are regarded as having friendlier staff than UK ones.

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IK: Warmachine

Heard about it from misfire. The models look like warhammer 5th edition, ie not brilliant but not horrible either. I expect the very best in quality myself.

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I built a fully functional VOID army for less than $100 over a year ago.

Yeah. And VOID has crap models. The basic soldiers look like pimps with assault rifles, there is no detail on the tanks and the tyranid / zerg army has pathetic models. You pay for what you get.

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I will say that GW's plastic figures are insainly priced.

The mold for a plastic model costs tens of thousands of pounds. They need to make the models cost that much just to be sure of making a profit. For example, how many other companies make entire lines of plastic kits? Not many. They cannot afford the up-front costs.

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WYSIWYG: I love conversions, but I don't like how you can't proxy at all. By far and away this is a personal issue though and I don't expect much agreement.

You cannot proxy? So there are GW men in black suits coming to your house to *force* you to use only correct models? Hell, i have done it in the past.
If you are refering to official GW stuff, then yeah. But, those are meant to be at a professional level. Having peple turn up with a SM tank and say "its a lemun russ demolisher, honest" at a grand tournament kinda sucks.
And Wizkids are even worse. Check their tournament rules.
Oh, and the rules for making custom vehicles, they are that to stop gooby munchkin vehicles. The 100 bolters mounted on a warmachine is nasty, but not so nasty as trying to build such a machine.

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Citadel minis aren't nearly as head and shoulders above the rest of the field as they used to be.

How about you go take a look at the new lizardman carnosaur model. Or that defiler. Or how about the entire Daemonhunters range.
GW has the best models around. And a lot of them are plastic, which is great for conversions.

Regarding Wizkids oh-so-wonderful balance:

Firelord. I have two versions. Both are about a third under cost, at least. That was a starter set model. They are not infalliable. In comparison, can anyone name a unit from 40k or warhammer that is broken to that degree?
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 30, 2003, 09:08:02 AM: And page comparisons:

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (http://www.gamesworkshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Odd&odd=largescreenbuyme&_do=11&game=3&database=&Email=%3C%25retCode(60310199001%2Clargescreenbuyme2)%25%3E) (Games Workshop). £25. 11 inches tall; 8 inches across. Paperback with a Hardcover Case. 288 pages. Numerous colour photographs (which are more expensive due to higher ink and resolution requirements). B&W drawings on pretty much every page.

Warhammer 40k Codex Chaos Space Marines (http://www.gamesworkshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Odd&odd=largescreenbuyme&_do=11&game=3&database=200474&Email=%3C%25retCode(60030102003%2Clargescreenbuyme2)%25%3E). £10. 11 inches tall; 8 inches across. 80 Pages. Dozens of colour photographs; B&W drawings on every page.

Dungeons and Dragons PHB (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndcore/175240000) (Wizards of the Coast). £20. Note: link is to 3.5 PHB, so doesnt really help but there it is. 11 inches tall; 8 1/2 inches across. 312 pages. No pictures; colour pictures on every other page. This is the biggest of the D&D books.

Akashic Brotherhood Traditionbook (http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=31345339687350&--eqskudatarq=04657) (White Wolf Game Studios). £11. 11 inches tall; 8 1/3 inches across. 104 pages. No pictures; B&W drawings on every page.

In conclusion, page counts might be smaller but the colour pictures balance that out. So GW make their books at about the same cost/quality level as the RPG industry. Go figure.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers on April 30, 2003, 09:38:36 AM: Not that I *do* tabletop (not even sure why I read the thread)....

But if you're going to look at WOTC products (and note, that while I say this, it's STILL a good deal) that looking at the core books isn't fair. The Core D&D books are like the "first one's free" to get you in and spend more money later. The expansions (of comparable size, page length, and content) cost around $30. While the 100 pg b/w supplements are around $22. You should really be using those numbers to look at the cost of D&d books.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 30, 2003, 10:39:59 AM: Quote
The expansions (of comparable size, page length, and content) cost around $30.

Here in britain all D20 books are £20. The PHB, the Fiend Folio, the CoC D20... all £20.

D20 is by far the most expensive game to get into on reflection.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Lord_of_Me on April 30, 2003, 12:17:24 PM: 1. about 3 years of 40k my rulebook and SM codex are in shreds. they are not very good.

2. In The inquisitor book half the fluff had been in WD(what fluff!)

3. GW staff are evil, i wanted to buy a SM bike (just the bike) in the nottingham store, i offhandedly mentioned it was for a conversion. After a ten-minute lecture why converting was a waste of time i walked out.

4. I got kicked out of the store for knowing the fleet of foot rule(admittedley it was a begginers day and i had come with a friend - but that wasn't fair!)

5. £30 for 5 bloody daemonhunter terminators!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: House of Mustard on April 30, 2003, 12:53:48 PM: Yeah Isimir - they'll screw you on terminators every time.

Have any of you Utah boys ever been into Hammond? They look at everyone that comes in as a potential shoplifter. They also keep ALL the warhammer stuff behind the counter and then get annoyed when you ask for a closer look.

And Entropy:
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Here in britain all D20 books are £20. The PHB, the Fiend Folio, the CoC D20... all £20.
D20 is by far the most expensive game to get into on reflection.

How many books do you need to play D20? When you consider that to play 40k with one other person you need TWO $200 armies, a pile of paint, at least two codex books and the rulebook, it seems far more expensive. In d20, once you have a couple of books, you can play. Individual players don't need their own books, and anyone who wants to try it out merely needs to find a couple of friends to play with. If you totally want to change the setting, by a couple different books. If you totally want to change the setting in 40k, it's another $200 and a codex.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on April 30, 2003, 12:54:45 PM: You think Firelord is undercosted and broken? Cool, I want to play against you.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 30, 2003, 12:55:55 PM: Quote
You think Firelord is undercosted and broken? Cool, I want to play against you.

???
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on April 30, 2003, 12:58:35 PM: I never use Firelord because I don't think he's good enough. I figure that if you think he's too good you might be easy to beat.

(You know I'm just teasing, right? Right?)
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 30, 2003, 01:03:41 PM: I shall content myself with only one statement.

Quote
you might be easy to beat.

???
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on April 30, 2003, 01:42:02 PM: On the whole internet thingy, check this thread over at the DakkaDakka forums.

http://66.166.157.5/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=NewsRumor&Number=160867&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=all&vc=1
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on April 30, 2003, 02:39:01 PM: I won't argue that the core books for 40k and WFB aren't the best values for the game. They're huge and they're chock full and relatively cheap. However, they're useless without a $200 army and the appropriate codex. As for D&D, all you need is the PHB and dice if you're playing. Add in the MM and DMG if you're running (tripling the cost). You don't need any other books. I played this way for two years because I like apporximately one of the sourcebooks put out.

Codices each have only 2 useful sections: the army lists and the pictures. The rest is total crap. GW fluff is highly derivitave and contrived and should be a free download on their website. Heck, they'd do better following most other miniature games leads and making the rules and rulebooks free downloads. They make their money on the minis anyway, not the books.

Making plastic minis is really expensive which is why few companies do it. However, it still doesn't justify that high of a price. Citadel is passing their up-front price for plastics onto me and I refuse to pay it. I-Kore is coming out with plastic minis here in a few weeksn and they're price increase is negligible. As for their quality, I like it. Some sculpts are crap, but over the short time they've been in business they've drastically improved in quality. Citadel is good, but not good enough to justify the price. Not at all. If you're willing to be charged exobitatnly for "the best" fine, but I'm not. Especially when being "the best" is completely subjective. Warmachine minis kick the tar out of most Citadel minatures, by the way.

From the other replies I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had trouble with GW store employees. Granted most game/comic shop owners are completely unhelpful and can be downright mean, but GW certainly doesn't rise above it.

And sure I can and do proxy at home, but try playing in a league with proxies...or events. Doesn't happen. Half the fun of the hobby is the camraderie and competition at events...events that I can't play in with proxied models. It only makes sense that they don't allow proxied models, since they want to encourage sales, but don't try to tell me that its okay to proxy when it absolutely is not.

In the last six months I've had seven of my friends drop GW. They're longtime players (I've only dabbled). Four dropped after the internet announcement. The only way they felt GW models were worth it was with the 30% discount you could get at most places. They'll still play with what they have, I'm sure, but they're done buying for good.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on May 20, 2003, 04:51:48 PM: The new White Dwarf came yesterday, and it's crammed full of stuff for the Eye of Terror campaign. I have to admit that I'm very excited--I really need to get some new paints and finish up by Space Wolves. Speaking of which, the Space Wolves are one of the four armies getting a sub-list in the new campaign codex, and the models look incredible. If only I had money...and time...but oh well.

I'd really like to do something with the campaign here on the site, but I'm not sure what. There's no easy way to play wargames via email. Perhaps this is a good time to test out some house rules and run a forum game of a fully RPG-version of Inquisitor.

There's lots of stuff we could do. Sound off with your ideas.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on May 20, 2003, 04:57:12 PM: Heh. Timing. Me and Mr P have been bouncing ideas around regarding a 40k RPG. He wants to use the savage worlds ruleset...

Im also rather peeved - my brand new, still being undercoated, Tau army have a sideline role in the new campaign. We have our own area, sure, but we do not get to participate in the battle for the cadian gate, and damned if i am going to start painting my Iron Warriors - too boring. Metal + gold may be easy, but its not much fun to do. And the space wolves are on indefinite hold, until my wallet rocovers from the whammy of a Tau army...
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Spriggan on May 20, 2003, 05:02:55 PM: humm i'm just wondering, I think that if I coded something it would be possible. This is just a thought but here it is:
I can code a system in flash that will let you move peices around on a bord then save thier places. I really don't feel like codeing all the proper movement rules, but I can do it in a grid system for easy measurement. everything else would be done in the forum, but you could check positions on a map. Well I could so all that other stuff but the more complicated it is the more likely I'll never finish it ;D.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on May 20, 2003, 05:11:27 PM: I think, gentlemen, that it is time i started prodding spriggan to complete stuff when i talk to him in MSN.

Either that or i learn how to code in the rules myself...
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Spriggan on May 20, 2003, 05:26:27 PM: I'm not going to bother codeing any rules unless it's a TWG made game. But I'll just mix a few features from the driod game with a grid and walla. All I'm going to bother saveing is the unit name, grid location, faceing (north, south, east, west), and status. Then let you log into the game and be able to move you're own peices. And Fell or the GM could move any peice. This I could get done in a few hours. A whole game with rules and such...months. And I'm not going to bother doing it unless there's intrest.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on May 20, 2003, 05:29:19 PM: I worry that a top-down approach like that would be too difficult to actually use--I can barely decipher the maps in their battle reports. If it worked, or course, I would glady use it, but I'll be very surprised if you get it to work.

I remember reading the thread with the Inquisitor RPG discussion, and that's mostly what gave me the idea. I don't know if we'd have to use Savage Worlds, though--Inquisitor has all the combat rules we need already. We'd need to add a skill system, but that's probably it. How does Savage Worlds skill system work?
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Spriggan on May 20, 2003, 05:33:24 PM: It would be top down. I could go Isometrec, but that's way to graphic intensive and would have to go tile based. The program would be easy. Be simpler then the one I'm doing now (the ball/brick game), the users would click and drag a piece and choose the faceing. No rules at all, the GM or other players would have to check everything. I'd let you do the maps, and have flash dynamical load them. If you don't want me to do it then I wont bother.

Edit: I'll do a realy simple version with only 2 peices and no maps (just the grid). Then you can decied on weither you like it or not.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on May 20, 2003, 05:38:33 PM: It doesn't sound like something I would use--and I don't mean that as a comment on your abilities, since I don't think anyone anywhere could produce a program like this that I would like. Still, it would be nice to have something that facilitated online play. Do the other wargamers here have suggestions of how to make something like this useful?
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on May 20, 2003, 06:34:56 PM: Hm.

Make it work off a half-inch grid. A 40k model base is either half an inch or goes up in rough doubles. (1 inch... 2 inchh...). That way, movement is simply 12 squares.

TBH, it should not be that difficult to do the rules - most things operate off a simple 6 inch mechanic. Put in a dice roller and make the army lists operate off of Army Builder and voila.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on May 20, 2003, 06:44:49 PM: On a RPG, eh. I'm more interested in a game that can be played online, due to my lack of people to play (most people i know are too un-geeky). TBH i don't care which system it is, as long as i know it or can get hold of it. I'm not interested that much in systems anyway, i operate off pure roleplaying as much as possible.

Otherwise, im collecting ideas. Give me a bit and i will post a list of what it should contain.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Mr_Pleasington on May 20, 2003, 07:22:38 PM: I think the best way to do this online would be to make it as abstract as possible. Maybe just give everyone a combat line and a few skills/special abilities.

Entropy and I have been bouncing this back and forth and I was about to send another email to him. I think adapting WFRP would be easier than using Savage Worlds. It would take a little work, but I think I could pull off a quick and dirty conversion. May take a week or two before I get a rough draft though.

And as I've stated, Rogue Trader (for those like me who have copies) is virtually an RPG in itself also. We could pull a RT RPG. It would strike a good balance between Inquisitor complexity and 40K abstractness.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on May 21, 2003, 06:42:00 AM: As long as i can get a hold of the rules i'll be as happy as a bunny in snow.

Or something.

Anyway, i think that, system aside, the best way to do a RPG would be to do it in installments similar to Exalted.
We have the first one, which details the most likely protaginists (humans, either mutants/cops/imperial guard soldiers/inquisitors), human weapons, human psychic powers and so on. Possibly split those up into miniinstallments.
Afterwards comes the alien expensions. I was thinking that most important of these would be one where we flat out make them up. This would be "minor races" - guys who we know must exist, but who do not have a army in 40k. Maybe we could get the Sci Fi writers present to do that one. It is needed to give the GM some decent alternatives - what would D&D forgotten realms be like with only orcs, kobolds and dragons to fight?
And of course the Tau, Eldar etc would all get their packs in the sweet fullness of time.

So, Mr P takes the spanner to whatever system is decided upon, and i will start sifting through my 40k collection for ideas for the human one. Oh, and i still want my idea for a pschic rules used Mr P ;)
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on May 21, 2003, 12:46:18 PM: Don't I wish I knew what was going on here.

So are you saying that you're actually developing a homemade RPG designed to be posted on the Internet as a full game? Sounds interesting.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on May 21, 2003, 12:52:40 PM: I want a 40k RPG i can play online. Releasing it to other people would largely be a side effect of furthering my own pleasures.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Spriggan on May 21, 2003, 02:34:44 PM: How come I have the feeling that this will lead to the death of many innocent people
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on May 21, 2003, 03:33:03 PM: Hm. He knows me too well... maybe it is time he is "silenced"...
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Fellfrosch on July 01, 2003, 03:59:18 PM: Well crap. The campaign starts today, and I have no feasible possibility of playing anytime soon. I wonder what I can work out.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on July 01, 2003, 07:49:14 PM: Hum. I could take my unpainted Tau to a club, but i really want to paint them up and use them in a store. I could always use some chaosboys, but they are unpainted mostly as well. Damnit!

Actually, the last 2 issues of WD turned me off it a bit. The battle rep in this months issue is crap, and the section on the eye of terror last month went into terrain i did not like - it went for generic layers of hell, as opposed to the version i always liked which was with teh daemon princes fighting tooth and nail by messing around with reality. Having souls and dead people dragged into it sucks. Oh, and the battle rep in that issue was the lamest since that battle report when the falcon first came out.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on July 01, 2003, 08:19:09 PM: Oh, and BTW, i found a full warhammer fantasy roleplay conversion for 40k. I can email the PDF file to anyone who is interested. It is pretty comprehensive, with new skills and careers and everything. All i really want to do now is think up some stuff to fill in the gaps. Gaps like:

->Are there female Tau?
->How do Tau reproduce?
->How, precisely, do bonesingers produce wraithbone?
->What other alien races might be encountered?
->Are there any Chaos worshippers who are not human, or is humanity the only race that follows Chaos to a large extent? There was chaos race mentioned in the Eisenhorn trilogy, but what about Orks, Tau and other races that presumably must exist yet do not have an army?
->What does the imperium do if a planet experiences a revolt that changes government but remains loyal to Terra? Say, a monarchy is overthrown and modern democracy is instituted which is fully loyal to the Emperor and his followers - what does the Inquisition do?
->The Emperors Tarot - is it a form of psychic power, or does it genuinely draw power from the Emperor?
->Does the Imperium ever terraform planets to make them more inhabitable, or has that technology been lost? It exists in the modern day, so why is mars not a green planet?
->The Eldar - how does their society actually function? We know about military organistation, but what about peace time - do the Farseers control every aspect of the craftworld? How do they carry out maintenance of the craftworld?
->Just how big is a craftworld - small moon, large space station or what?
->What percentage of every race is a psycher?

Stuff like that. I have ideas for a lot of it, and i think it would be needed for a RPGs GM to know this stuff.
Title: Re: The Eye of Terror
Post by: Entsuropi on July 10, 2003, 01:23:13 PM: *bounces*

I'm really excited about EoT now. I registered and everything for my Tau army... now i am waiting for sunday when i will play a friend (who will use my Chaos army... and who knows he is playing Tau. I bet he loads up on AP4 weapons... i just hope he ignores the Kroot, so i can go on a rampage with them. Certainly the crisis suits have a low survival expectancy).

I really love how the campaign determines the fluff. If the Tau win a lot of battles, then the empire expands and all is good. If the Tau lose lots of battles then they are in trouble, and expansion stops. Predictable the Tau are winning 50% of their battles; the Tau empire is at 101% its starting size or something daft.